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View Full Version : Possible Pilot Deviation


Koco
12-05-2017, 05:41 PM
Hello everyone! I´m a private instrument rated pilot in United States. I´m new in the aviation field, and I recently found myself 500 ft. above the floor of class B airspace without authorization. I was with my instructor practicing some commercial maneuvers. Before landing, the tower controller told me that there was a possible pilot deviation and that I needed to call a number. After landing, I called the number and the lady wrote down my name, pilot number, and phone number and told me that somebody will contact me. I called the same number next day, and they told me that they send the report to the local FSDO, and that somebody will contact me in a few days. What should I expect? What should I do? Did anybody recently have a similar experience? What did you do to solve the problem? Thank you in advance for any comment or suggestion.


lavService
12-05-2017, 05:45 PM
File a NASA safety report immediately. https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html Things happen and it's not the end of the world. Everyone has something on their record and no one is perfect. Learn from it and move on. Be honest about it when you advance and interview with an airline.

velosnow
12-05-2017, 05:49 PM
That's great, but why did you feel the need to pos this in 18 different sections?


AboveAndBeyond
12-05-2017, 05:49 PM
If you are a member of AOPA, contact the legal services and talk to them first thing tomorrow morning. Also, fill out a NASA report IMMEDIATELY. Not the end of the world, but these two steps will likely help if from being a major problem down the road.

NASA safety report. IMMEDIATELY!

AOPA's legal services will save your butt with things like this happen. Until you join an airline with a union, be a member of AOPA just for the legal service.

This could be a potential problem later. Do you really want to have to tell every employer that you ever interview with about your violation?

Half wing
12-05-2017, 05:51 PM
Fill out a NASA report or ASRS report. I wouldn't sweat it too much.

pete2800
12-05-2017, 05:51 PM
You really don't need to post the same thread 7 times in 7 different places.

GogglesPisano
12-05-2017, 05:54 PM
Why did you start 7+ threads when one would have sufficed?

Southerner
12-05-2017, 05:55 PM
Hello everyone! I´m a private instrument rated pilot in United States. I´m new in the aviation field, and I recently found myself 500 ft. above the floor of class B airspace without authorization. I was with my instructor practicing some commercial maneuvers. Before landing, the tower controller told me that there was a possible pilot deviation and that I needed to call a number. After landing, I called the number and the lady wrote down my name, pilot number, and phone number and told me that somebody will contact me. I called the same number next day, and they told me that they send the report to the local FSDO, and that somebody will contact me in a few days. What should I expect? What should I do? Did anybody recently have a similar experience? What did you do to solve the problem? Thank you in advance for any comment or suggestion.



File a NASA ASRS form like, yesterday.

Be forthcoming when you talk to the FAA. Part of the new “Compliance philosophy” is being open about making a mistake, and listening to feedback from the FAA. If they think you aren’t open to feedback or are covering up, they can take it out of the compliance action track, and put it into enforcement action. That is very rare though.

https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Terrain Inop
12-05-2017, 05:55 PM
What half wing said, plus get ahead of it and contact a FAAST Team rep from your FSDO. Show the ASI that you sought remedial training ahead of their investigation.

Truthanator
12-05-2017, 05:57 PM
http://www.truckdriving-schools.com/driving_schools/TRUCK-HEADER.jpg

https://www.truckschool.com/

PerfInit
12-05-2017, 06:36 PM
If a CFI was with you, he may be culpable as well. Even though you were the PIC (as sole manipulator of the controls). Technically the CFI was also the PIC, being responsible for the overall safety of the flight. Your CFI should also file a ASRS report as he probably has more experience and should have been more aware. Was there a NMAC filed also? This could be serious if loss of ATC separation occurred with an IFR aircraft.

MasterOfPuppets
12-05-2017, 06:39 PM
The first thing you need to do is file a NASA report right now, not tomorrow but right now, there is a time limit but I can't remember what it is. Just remember **** happens its no big deal, all of us have filled at least one out. At the airlines it is called an FSAP and we have all filled out dozens.

The second thing you need to do is ask your flight instructor why he/she didn't tell you what a NASA report was and promptly fire him/her. You don't need to be giving that person any more of your money because they aren't teaching you.

Third let the flight school know what happened and they will be able to assist you with the NASA report. If they can't help you with the NASA report find a new flight school. Also if they don't seem to care that their flight instructor had a pilot deviation and didn't report it, then find a new flight school they do not deserve anymore of your money.

Fourth sleep well you are not in trouble unless you DON'T file a NASA report.

Fifth Im not joking if your flight instructor seriously did not tell you about a NASA report, help you fill one out, and did not fill one out themselves then you need a new flight instructor.

WesternSkies
12-05-2017, 08:10 PM
Some bad information of the NASA report here and the function.

5. PROHIBITION AGAINST THE USE OF REPORTS FOR ENFORCEMENT PURPOSES
Background. Designed and operated by NASA, the NASA ASRS security system ensures the confidentiality and anonymity of the reporter, and other parties as appropriate, involved in a reported occurrence or incident. The FAA will not seek, and NASA will not release or make available to the FAA, any report filed with NASA under the ASRS or any other information that might reveal the identity of any party involved in an occurrence or incident reported under the ASRS. There has been no breach of confidentiality in more than 34 years of the ASRS under NASA management.
Regulatory Restrictions. Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 91, § 91.25 prohibits the use of any reports submitted to NASA under the ASRS (or information derived therefrom) in any disciplinary action, except information concerning criminal offenses or accidents that are covered under paragraphs 7a(1) and 7a(2).
Non-ASRS Report. When violation of the 14 CFR comes to the attention of the FAA from a source other than a report filed with NASA under the ASRS, the Administrator of the FAA will take appropriate action. See paragraph 9.

That said, fill out a NASA report. The investigator will appreciate it and your straight forward honesty.
If there wasnt separation-lost with any aircraft at worst I predict they will put a sealed note in your file to be erased in two years if it doesn’t happen again.
No employer would ever be able to see that kind of letter even before the 2 year time clock is up.

JamesNoBrakes
12-05-2017, 09:31 PM
File a NASA ASRS form like, yesterday.

Be forthcoming when you talk to the FAA. Part of the new “Compliance philosophy” is being open about making a mistake, and listening to feedback from the FAA. If they think you aren’t open to feedback or are covering up, they can take it out of the compliance action track, and put it into enforcement action. That is very rare though.

https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The worst that is happening these days (if you go along with compliance philosophy and you didn't cause Air Force one to make a TCAS maneuver) is they'll have you do an hour or two of training with an instructor, no letters in your airman file, no record of enforcement actions. Very different than 2+ years ago, and that's really the worst case, some of these are being handled with counselings or having you do an AOPA course or something similar. These are all considered "compliance actions". After the inspector talks to you and finds out "what happened", it gets referred to the FAAST team where they figure out what kind of compliance action to take. It takes the FSDO a while to get the report from Air Traffic though, sometimes weeks, so don't expect a call or letter right away, but in reality the FSDO deals with these all the time and it's a relief to most inspectors that they don't have to process all the paperwork and enforcement stuff associated with how they went about these previously. There is a demographic/report portion of the Pilot Deviation that the inspector must fill out, to figure out why we are having PDs, such as are people getting enough rest, are runway signs brightly lit, are the frequencies too congested, etc. This is why they ask so many questions. You can google FAA Form 8020-18 to see for yourself. This has no bearing on the compliance action side of things, it's for the FAA to decide where they might have to allocate resources to make a dent in the PDs in the future.

Filing an ASRS report can't hurt, even before Compliance Philosophy a PD almost never came to that, because they were inadvertent actions by people that usually didn't have a history of doing it, so they were sent out warning-notices according to the enforcement rules that were in place at the time (not compliance philosophy). In some egregious cases that often involved multiple FAR violations, it would go down an enforcement road, which is where the ASRS could become beneficial, but one important thing to know about the ASRS is that it can waive the penalty, but not the decision, which goes on your record, so you would still be found to have violated a regulation, but if there was say a suspension period, that would be waived. Ultra-rare for a case to go down this road these days, but again, it can't hurt. The idea of compliance philosophy is to extend an ASAP-like program/mentality to everyone else. When airline pilots file an ASAP report, they are often able to do almost the exact same thing, discuss the event, do some retraining, and not have the pilot deviation go on their airman record. The idea is to be able to do the same thing in Part 91 and have the ability to "fix the problem", instead of "hammer the airman".

Hope this helps.

SonicFlyer
12-05-2017, 09:48 PM
First mistake was giving them your information over the phone.

When you call them simply say "this is the PIC of (tailnumber), what can I do for you?"

You are not obligated to give them your personal identification.

SonicFlyer
12-05-2017, 09:48 PM
File a NASA safety report immediately. https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html Things happen and it's not the end of the world. Everyone has something on their record and no one is perfect. Learn from it and move on. Be honest about it when you advance and interview with an airline.
It's my understanding that the title or subject line can be used against you, but the body of the report cannot?

SonicFlyer
12-05-2017, 09:49 PM
Some bad information of the NASA report here and the function.



That said, fill out a NASA report. The investigator will appreciate it and your straight forward honesty.
If there wasnt separation-lost with any aircraft at worst I predict they will put a sealed note in your file to be erased in two years if it doesn’t happen again.
No employer would ever be able to see that kind of letter even before the 2 year time clock is up.If it is for an enforcement action, can they use the information in the body of the report against you, especially if you fill it out after you have already been contacted?

PerfInit
12-06-2017, 05:42 AM
^^^ No, they absolutely cannot use anything in the body of the ASRS
report in their investigation. This is protected information.

Bucknut
12-06-2017, 06:08 AM
Be proactive! Find a different instructor and have them conduct an hour or two of ground instruction and document it in your training record. A NASA report is not a get out jail ticket like many believe but it helps. If the FAA calls tell them what happened and make sure they know you were proactive. Keep in mind you should be very careful where you are conducting manuevers not deemed necessary for normal flight. The FAA could consider commercial manuevers as Aerobatic flight and that is illegal with in two miles of an airway centerline. There are usually airways everywhere near Class B airspace.

JamesNoBrakes
12-06-2017, 06:33 AM
It's my understanding that the title or subject line can be used against you, but the body of the report cannot?

I work for the FAA. We don't see ASRS reports. They only come into play at the end of an enforcement or after an NTSB judge has rendered a decision against you, then it's kind of a "get out of jail free" card that can be used to waive the penalty of an enforcement. An enforcement means suspension, revocation, civil penalty, etc. The ASRS report has nothing to do with the investigation. We don't see them. I'd be curious to know where you got this understanding?

JamesNoBrakes
12-06-2017, 06:34 AM
The FAA could consider commercial manuevers as Aerobatic flight

Please, explain.

Bucknut
12-06-2017, 08:23 AM
I stated above it is not a get out of jail card like some pilots believe. You stated, "it can be used after the judgment by the NTSB". Otherwise it is not automatic forgiveness for the event and you may still get the violation. Is this not correct? My point was that it may help and be proactive!

JamesNoBrakes
12-06-2017, 10:25 AM
I stated above it is not a get out of jail card like some pilots believe. You stated, "it can be used after the judgment by the NTSB". Otherwise it is not automatic forgiveness for the event and you may still get the violation. Is this not correct? My point was that it may help and be proactive!

You WILL still get the violation if you are using the ASRS, it’s not a question. The ONLY thing it does in the eyes of the FAA is waive the penalty associated with the violation. So for the purpose of PRIA, there will still be a violation. If the case didn’t make it to the violation stage due to some other reason, it’s irrelevent. Again, rare these days due to Compliance Actions, but the ASRS does not act like ASAP and provide any other protections, nor is the data used by the FAA.

There’s a lot of misunderstanding out there on this, so it’s good to be clear.

JohnBurke
12-06-2017, 10:37 AM
Hello everyone! I´m a private instrument rated pilot in United States. I´m new in the aviation field, and I recently found myself 500 ft. above the floor of class B airspace without authorization. I was with my instructor practicing some commercial maneuvers. Before landing, the tower controller told me that there was a possible pilot deviation and that I needed to call a number. After landing, I called the number and the lady wrote down my name, pilot number, and phone number and told me that somebody will contact me. I called the same number next day, and they told me that they send the report to the local FSDO, and that somebody will contact me in a few days. What should I expect? What should I do? Did anybody recently have a similar experience? What did you do to solve the problem? Thank you in advance for any comment or suggestion.

The purpose of that call to the tower was singular: your information was obtained to be used against you. There is no other purpose.

Until you put yourself in that aircraft via that phone call, the FAA had no way of putting you there.

You know that thing attorneys do; tell you not to say anything until you speak to an attorney? There's a reason.

Most of the time, what the FAA has, the pilot gave them. Don't do that.

Complete the ASRS report.

JNB is correct: the ASRS does not prevent a violation; it offers you the opportunity to not serve the penalty of a violation, but the violation still stays on your record. If, for example, you're given a 90 day suspension, the FAA may not actually suspend for 90 days, but you'll still have the violation on your record.

It is not a get out of jail free card by any stretch of the imagination.

I work for the FAA. We don't see ASRS reports. They only come into play at the end of an enforcement or after an NTSB judge has rendered a decision against you, then it's kind of a "get out of jail free" card that can be used to waive the penalty of an enforcement. An enforcement means suspension, revocation, civil penalty, etc. The ASRS report has nothing to do with the investigation. We don't see them. I'd be curious to know where you got this understanding?

I don't see sonicflyer's posts as he's on my ignore list, but I see your post, responding to his quote. He is correct.

The FAA may not take enforcement action based on anything learned from the ASRS report. It's not sent to you, but an airman who introduced it early in the process or sends it with a response might provide it. In such a case, if submitted timely and not an intentional violation or a violation of law, the body of the report is protected and none of that information can be used as first-source for enforcement purposes. It can't be used as an admission, either.

The same is not true of the title strip, which is not protected. A pilot who identifies himself as violating a regulation as part of his title may find that the title strip of the ASRS report can be used against him. It does not enjoy the same protection or immunity, and while the ASRS doesn't send the reports to the FAA, inspectors have been known to peruse them, looking. While the FAA can't act based on the ASRS report body, revealing too much can show the inspector where to look to dig deeper, or reveal something the inspector didn't know in the first place. I have known more than a few inspectors who do this, and who are of a mind to do this...going after people for everything from a talk in church to having overheard a casual 3rd party conversation.

Hang one's hat on the new and friendlier FAA if one wants. Not wise.

JNB may not be lynching pilots, but he's an army of one. There are a lot of others out there who won't hesitate to do so.

Koco
12-06-2017, 03:34 PM
Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate them. This is a big lesson learned. It won´t happen again. Thank you all!!!

TommyDevito
12-06-2017, 04:48 PM
JNB may not be lynching pilots, but he's an army of one. There are a lot of others out there who won't hesitate to do so.

I asked before and so far no one has been able to show me.

Under current guidance, as long as the airman is being cooperative, and the airman did not intentionally commit an action, how can he be "lynched" as you put it? I've been through the Compliance Action guidance and I can't find that avenue a rogue inspector could use to push an enforcement and do it successfully.

ja2c
12-06-2017, 05:32 PM
I asked before and so far no one has been able to show me.

Under current guidance, as long as the airman is being cooperative, and the airman did not intentionally commit an action, how can he be "lynched" as you put it? I've been through the Compliance Action guidance and I can't find that avenue a rogue inspector could use to push an enforcement and do it successfully.

I would advise any pilot not to take JohnBurkes advice. Be up front, honest, and compliant. When you call the tower, give them your info. The inspector will find out who the PIC is anyway. The Compliance Philosophy is used if you are being compliant. If you choose not to be, there’s other avenues to take. Personally, I’d much rather receive verbal counseling than enforcement action.

JohnBurke
12-06-2017, 06:10 PM
I would advise any pilot not to take JohnBurkes advice.

It's your career funeral.

Would you take an attorney's advice?

JamesNoBrakes
12-06-2017, 08:08 PM
I don't see sonicflyer's posts as he's on my ignore list, but I see your post, responding to his quote. He is correct.

The FAA may not take enforcement action based on anything learned from the ASRS report. It's not sent to you, but an airman who introduced it early in the process or sends it with a response might provide it. In such a case, if submitted timely and not an intentional violation or a violation of law, the body of the report is protected and none of that information can be used as first-source for enforcement purposes. It can't be used as an admission, either.

The same is not true of the title strip, which is not protected. A pilot who identifies himself as violating a regulation as part of his title may find that the title strip of the ASRS report can be used against him. It does not enjoy the same protection or immunity, and while the ASRS doesn't send the reports to the FAA, inspectors have been known to peruse them, looking. While the FAA can't act based on the ASRS report body, revealing too much can show the inspector where to look to dig deeper, or reveal something the inspector didn't know in the first place. I have known more than a few inspectors who do this, and who are of a mind to do this...going after people for everything from a talk in church to having overheard a casual 3rd party conversation.

Hang one's hat on the new and friendlier FAA if one wants. Not wise.

JNB may not be lynching pilots, but he's an army of one. There are a lot of others out there who won't hesitate to do so.

Well, it's good to see where this comes from, like I said, i had no idea. It's neither in our Orders, Guidance or any processes we have to look at anything in or relating to ASRS reports. We don't have links to the databases or anything of that nature. I wouldn't even know how or where to start, since it's just not something we do. If this was happening, any semi-competent lawyer would have a field day with it, tearing into counsel if it came to a trial. In our old processes it did ask whether the airman submitted an ASAP, to prevent us from going down enforcement roads when the investigation had to be entered correctly as an ASAP to protect the airman's file.

Yoda2
12-06-2017, 08:52 PM
Koco,

Sure there are the horror stories, though in the vast majority of these types of cases the FAA just wants to know what happened, and if applicable, that you learned a lesson, and be reasonably assured it will not happen again. They will generally take the situation and your experience level into consideration as well. When I have been given the number to call, I chose to call and be forthcoming, polite and deferential. On occasion they just want to ask a question about your operation or why you did something in a particular manner, even if there was no violation. I've had that also. I have had to call a few times, over many years. It worked out fine in each case. If you do not call, you are then essentially/effectively forcing the FAA's hand, which can trigger a formal investigation. That's typically when things get ugly. I am not making any recommendations, except to send the NASA form, just sharing my experience. Good luck!

JohnBurke
12-06-2017, 10:52 PM
Well, it's good to see where this comes from, like I said, i had no idea. It's neither in our Orders, Guidance or any processes we have to look at anything in or relating to ASRS reports. We don't have links to the databases or anything of that nature. I wouldn't even know how or where to start, since it's just not something we do. If this was happening, any semi-competent lawyer would have a field day with it, tearing into counsel if it came to a trial. In our old processes it did ask whether the airman submitted an ASAP, to prevent us from going down enforcement roads when the investigation had to be entered correctly as an ASAP to protect the airman's file.

I think it's likely something that will rarely come into play; it's more the legal nuances applicable to filing, sharing, and using the ASRS in the event of an investigation and subsequent enforcement action. In my experience, very few airmen are aware that the title strip, which is separated from the body of the report and returned to the pilot with the date-stamp, is outside the protected body of the report.

While the intent of the program is safety and one should provide adequate detail in the report to enhance safety, one should also not go out of one's way to incriminate one's self; the wording of the title strip can do just that, and while the body of the report cannot be used for discovery or used against the pilot so long as he/she falls within the scope of the program, the title strip does not enjoy that protection.

A pilot is called on the carpet for an altitude deviation at the base of Class B airspace. He has filed an ASRS report. He attends an informal meeting, or responds by mail and sends a copy of the title strip, anxious to show that he's done his part. The inspector receives the title strip, the title of which is "Altitude Bust While Joyriding and Performing Low Level Aerobatics Without a Parachute in Class B Airspace."

The inspector is surprised to learn that there is more here than an altitude deviation, that multiple other regulations have been broken, and that the pilot has elected to send a legal confession.

The pilot thinks he's covered himself, when he's done just the opposite, and opened another can of worms.

He may have been better off entitling his report "Altitude error," or better, "Altitude issue," to preclude placing himself in jeopardy.

The above is only an example, with and does not intentionally represent any specific person, living or dead; intelligent, or brain-dead.

JamesNoBrakes
12-07-2017, 05:52 AM
A pilot is called on the carpet for an altitude deviation at the base of Class B airspace. He has filed an ASRS report. He attends an informal meeting, or responds by mail and sends a copy of the title strip, anxious to show that he's done his part. The inspector receives the title strip, the title of which is "Altitude Bust While Joyriding and Performing Low Level Aerobatics Without a Parachute in Class B Airspace."

I think that likely is a result of AOPA and their lawyers/other aviation attorneys not studying the 2150.3 Order and 8900.1 guidance and simply telling an airman to do all of these things without really understanding what it is they are telling an airman to do. Likely, the AOPA and others beat the drum of "file the ASRS", which is great, no problem with that, but they are probably making it out to be, or the perception exists, that it's a "get out of jail free card" and that the airman should present this during investigation to somehow have it "dropped". Like I said, it's nothing the FAA has access to, unless for some reason the airman hands over a copy or receipt like you describe. I must say that my early understanding of ASRS when I was a pilot learning certificates and ratings was the "get out of jail free card" thing. Many of the attorney articles I see in AOPA and other resources still have gross misunderstandings of the guidance and orders that should be easily obtainable common knowledge.

rickair7777
12-07-2017, 06:26 AM
Koco,

Sure there are the horror stories, though in the vast majority of these types of cases the FAA just wants to know what happened, and if applicable, that you learned a lesson, and be reasonably assured it will not happen again. They will generally take the situation and your experience level into consideration as well. When I have been given the number to call, I chose to call and be forthcoming, polite and deferential. On occasion they just want to ask a question about your operation or why you did something in a particular manner, even if there was no violation. I've had that also. I have had to call a few times, over many years. It worked out fine in each case. If you do not call, you are then essentially/effectively forcing the FAA's hand, which can trigger a formal investigation. That's typically when things get ugly. I am not making any recommendations, except to send the NASA form, just sharing my experience. Good luck!

This has been my experience as well, but obvious risk here. Given that the OP didn't clam up and lawyer up right away, he might be better off trying out the compliance philosophy at this point. He could of course get a lawyer's advice. But some lawyers will prefer top drag out the process $$$. They don't make much money from compliance philosophy.

ja2c
12-07-2017, 11:40 AM
It's your career funeral.

Would you take an attorney's advice?

Career funeral over accidentally busting an airspace? Negative. However, if somebody keeps busting airspace, there’s a problem. From the way it reads, this is the OPs first time.

terks43
12-16-2017, 09:58 PM
Just be cooperative with them, give them the information they request, be proactive, be enthusiastic about learning from the experience and you will be just fine. If you do all of that the worst you get is some retraining. The FAA doesn’t really suspend or revoke anymore. Only if you are avoiding them and denying what you did or did it intentionally will they do that. Trust me the FAA are not monsters. They have a new compliance culture that they are trying to grow. Do what I said and you’ll be just fine, no worries.

I may be wrong about this part I’m not 100% sure about this but if you are offered retraining and you successfully complete it I believe that doesn’t even show up on your records as enforcement, or if it does that it is taken off after two years. It’s really not a career ender at all. All pilots are humans and humans do stupid ******, learn from it. It’s ok.

TommyDevito
12-17-2017, 05:37 AM
Just be cooperative with them, give them the information they request, be proactive, be enthusiastic about learning from the experience and you will be just fine. If you do all of that the worst you get is some retraining. The FAA doesn’t really suspend or revoke anymore. Only if you are avoiding them and denying what you did or did it intentionally will they do that. Trust me the FAA are not monsters. They have a new compliance culture that they are trying to grow. Do what I said and you’ll be just fine, no worries.

I may be wrong about this part I’m not 100% sure about this but if you are offered retraining and you successfully complete it I believe that doesn’t even show up on your records as enforcement, or if it does that it is taken off after two years. It’s really not a career ender at all. All pilots are humans and humans do stupid ******, learn from it. It’s ok.

A Compliance Action is not an enforcement. If the airman accomplishes the retraining the CA is closed. The only record is internal to the FAA and essentially used for tracking data to look for trends, such as if multiple airman are having the same problem in the same areas identified in the CA.

TommyDevito
12-17-2017, 05:40 AM
Career funeral over accidentally busting an airspace? Negative. However, if somebody keeps busting airspace, there’s a problem. From the way it reads, this is the OPs first time.

Correct. If the altitude bust was inadvertent and the airman is compliant this results in a Compliance Action which is not an enforcement.

rickair7777
12-17-2017, 06:29 AM
A Compliance Action is not an enforcement. If the airman accomplishes the retraining the CA is closed. The only record is internal to the FAA and essentially used for tracking data to look for trends, such as if multiple airman are having the same problem in the same areas identified in the CA.

Any idea if that info is subject to FOIA?

TommyDevito
12-17-2017, 06:35 AM
Any idea if that info is subject to FOIA?

It's not FOIA the way it was explained to me.

tomgoodman
12-17-2017, 07:15 AM
It's not FOIA the way it was explained to me.

Ah, then it must be Double Secret Probation.

TommyDevito
12-17-2017, 07:19 AM
Ah, then it must be Double Secret Probation.

Not sure what that means.

The Compliance Action is recorded in PTRS (Program Tracking and Reporting Subsystem) which is an internal system to the FAA.

tomgoodman
12-17-2017, 08:39 AM
Not sure what that means.

My bad. The movie was pre-millennial. 😜

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eUUzA56zG2U

TommyDevito
12-17-2017, 10:06 AM
My bad. The movie was pre-millennial. 😜

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eUUzA56zG2U

I’m definitely not a millennial. ;)

JohnBurke
12-17-2017, 11:32 AM
Career funeral over accidentally busting an airspace? Negative. However, if somebody keeps busting airspace, there’s a problem. From the way it reads, this is the OPs first time.

Enforcement action is enforcement action. Violations on one's record are enough to cost a job interview, or an invite to a job interview...for a long time. Warning letters are enough. They can damage a career for years.

MadmanX2
12-18-2017, 08:22 AM
Ah, then it must be Double Secret Probation.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/styles/poa/poa_smilies/rofl.gifhttps://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/styles/poa/poa_smilies/rofl.gifhttps://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/styles/poa/poa_smilies/rofl.gif

I got it. Still a funny movie..!!!

Load 15
12-19-2017, 07:20 AM
Just my personal opinion, but I'm thinking the FAA will mostly be looking at the CFI in this situation. He was the more experienced pilot and he is supervising the flight while the student is learning the maneuvers. Also I am guessing that he was the agreed upon PIC as well, thus placing the responsibility more on him than the student who is focused on learning his flight maneuvers. I would advise the student to file the NASA report and to be humble and honest with the FAA. They might assign some remedial training depending on the circumstances, however they might just give you a talking to over the phone if you have the right attitude. Good luck with it and don't worry, this is far from a career killer.

ja2c
12-22-2017, 05:21 PM
Enforcement action is enforcement action. Violations on one's record are enough to cost a job interview, or an invite to a job interview...for a long time. Warning letters are enough. They can damage a career for years.


One simple mistake will not lead to a violation or a Warning letter. It will be handled with Compliance Action if the airman is compliant. Which would equal no violation or warning letter.

JohnBurke
01-10-2018, 05:24 AM
One simple mistake will not lead to a violation or a Warning letter. It will be handled with Compliance Action if the airman is compliant. Which would equal no violation or warning letter.

Rose colored glasses work only so long.

Often it's experience that will teach you the truth.

TommyDevito
01-13-2018, 09:26 AM
Rose colored glasses work only so long.

Often it's experience that will teach you the truth.

So when you can't formulate a response you resort to cryptic messaging?

MadmanX2
01-13-2018, 10:07 AM
Rose colored glasses work only so long.

Often it's experience that will teach you the truth.

Confucius or fortune cookies..??

PowderFinger
03-24-2018, 04:57 PM
That's great, but why did you feel the need to pos this in 18 different sections?

First time his hair has been on fire.

JohnBurke
03-24-2018, 06:35 PM
So when you can't formulate a response you resort to cryptic messaging?

Multiple responses were already made. They do require a modicum of reading comprehension. That may have been your disconnect.

A Squared
03-25-2018, 06:02 PM
If it is for an enforcement action, can they use the information in the body of the report against you, especially if you fill it out after you have already been contacted?

^^^ No, they absolutely cannot use anything in the body of the ASRS
report in their investigation. This is protected information.

However, if it is an accident or a criminal act, the protections of the ASRS program do not apply, the report will be forwarded to the FAA and the information can be used.

A Squared
03-25-2018, 06:21 PM
It's my understanding that the title or subject line can be used against you, but the body of the report cannot?

The ASRS report has nothing to do with the investigation. We don't see them. I'd be curious to know where you got this understanding?

It comes from the fact that the FAA has done that in the past, and when the pilot in question appealed his enforcement to the NTSB, the NTSB ruled that the information on the title strip is not protected under the ASRP program.

I can't lay my hands on the NTSB decision at the moment, but I'll see if I can did it up. As I recall it (it's been a while) the pilot has some sort of deviation. Let's say it was an altitude bust on an IFR flight plan. I don't know that's what it was, but lets say it was. So pilot files an NTSB report, and he puts something fairly specific in the title strip like "N456BK deviating from assigned altitude" This was back in the day of paper ASRP reports that you actually filled out with a pen folded up and mailed in. Back then, NASA would get the report, review it for intentional violations and criminal acts, and if none were involved, they would cut off the title strip, put a time and date stamp on it, and mail it back to you. So, the FAA sends the guy a letter of Investigation, and when responding to it, the pilot sends in the title strip with his other information. The FAA used the effective admission of guilt on the title strip in their finding of a violation against him. He appealed to the NTSB and they ruled that the strip was not protected under the ASRP program.

Two things to take away from this:

1) Be as vague and non-specific as you can in the title. Save the details, confessions, etc for the body of the ASRP report.

2) don't submit anything about an ASRP report in an investigation. It doesn't do anything for you in an investigation. It won't stop the investigation, and it won't prevent a finding of violation. All it will do is prevent any penalty assessed from taking effect. (certificate suspension, for example) If you are found to be in violation *then* bring out your ASRP receipt.


Again, I don't know that it actually was an altitude deviation in the cited case, that was just a "for example". I'll see if I can find the NTSB decision.

JamesNoBrakes
03-26-2018, 09:22 PM
1) Be as vague and non-specific as you can in the title. Save the details, confessions, etc for the body of the ASRP report.


Well, as I said, at the FAA we don't have access to any NASA/ASRS files and would never know what an airmen uses for the title, they can name it anything they want.

That "technicality" you mentioned is unfortunate, that's the exact thing the compliance philosophy is trying to reverse, the adversarial standoff where in the absence of information the FAA fears the worst and the airman refuses to discuss. Hard to reverse decades of culture, but we are trying.

A Squared
03-26-2018, 10:08 PM
Well, as I said, at the FAA we don't have access to any NASA/ASRS files and would never know what an airmen uses for the title, they can name it anything they want.

Well, in this case, the Airman sent the strip in to the FAA in response to the LOI, so they *did* have that part of it.

Blackhawk
04-03-2018, 07:51 AM
Well, as I said, at the FAA we don't have access to any NASA/ASRS files and would never know what an airmen uses for the title, they can name it anything they want.

That "technicality" you mentioned is unfortunate, that's the exact thing the compliance philosophy is trying to reverse, the adversarial standoff where in the absence of information the FAA fears the worst and the airman refuses to discuss. Hard to reverse decades of culture, but we are trying.

Unfortunately it will take years for pilots to forget and forgive, especially when the same safety inspectors are still around. I saw careers crushed over minor violations such as a right hand pattern at a non-towered airport. Ironically, these pilots probably would have been better off with DUI's as most major airlines ask about "DUI's within the past 5 years" but a violation is there forever. I know many airline pilots who refuse to teach as there is too much risk from a possible violation.

bamike
04-03-2018, 07:55 AM
Unfortunately it will take years for pilots to forget and forgive, especially when the same safety inspectors are still around. I saw careers crushed over minor violations such as a right hand pattern at a non-towered airport. Ironically, these pilots probably would have been better off with DUI's as most major airlines ask about "DUI's within the past 5 years" but a violation is there forever. I know many airline pilots who refuse to teach as there is too much risk from a possible violation.

How did they even find out about a right hand pattern at a non-towered field?

Blackhawk
04-03-2018, 07:57 AM
How did they even find out about a right hand pattern at a non-towered field?

One safety inspector liked to hang out at airports looking for them, other people would turn in the offending pilots to the FSDO... many ways.

JohnBurke
04-04-2018, 12:01 AM
Well, as I said, at the FAA we don't have access to any NASA/ASRS files and would never know what an airmen uses for the title, they can name it anything they want.


The ASRS is protected within the body of the report, but not the title, which means that if the FAA learns of the violation based on the body of the report, the FAA may not take action. If the FAA learns of the violation from another source, which includes the title strip, the FAA may take action on that information.

A pilot who offers the strip when asked about an incident, or even in a matter peripheral to the incident, may incriminate himself and provide the legal impetus to investigate or to secure information to use against the pilot in the appeal process.

Whether you as an inspector routinely comb ASRS reports, or whether you have routine access to them, is irrelevant to the subject of what's protected and what's not.

JamesNoBrakes
04-04-2018, 06:31 AM
The ASRS is protected within the body of the report, but not the title, which means that if the FAA learns of the violation based on the body of the report, the FAA may not take action. If the FAA learns of the violation from another source, which includes the title strip, the FAA may take action on that information.

A pilot who offers the strip when asked about an incident, or even in a matter peripheral to the incident, may incriminate himself and provide the legal impetus to investigate or to secure information to use against the pilot in the appeal process.

Whether you as an inspector routinely comb ASRS reports, or whether you have routine access to them, is irrelevant to the subject of what's protected and what's not.

Many people have the misconception that the FAA has access to ASRS reports or that they even care whether a report was filed, in that it would somehow change an investigation. This is in stark contrast to ASAP (and now Compliance Philosophy), which absolutely changes an FAA investigation.

If you hand over everything and the world, well that's up to you. If you know you are innocent and have information that would indicate this, the FAA wants to know about it, if you feel better doing it through a lawyer, all the more power to you. If you hide this information, you may be dragging yourself through a process that could have been stopped a long time ago.

JohnBurke
04-04-2018, 12:56 PM
Many of us have far, far too much experience with FAA abuse and too many years dealing with the FAA to buy into the bull**** of kinder and gentler compliance based philosophy. Anything you say can and absolutely will be used against you, and no, the FAA is NOT interested in your explanation of innocence unless it yields ammunition to use against you.

Don't call the tower. Don't respond to that letter of investigation, in the hopes the FAA will bless you through teary eyes and send you on your way. Call an attorney. You'll hear all day long that you don't need one. The person who tells you that does not have your best interests at heart. Know it. Embrace it.

The FAA is not your friend.

B757
04-04-2018, 07:45 PM
Don't call the tower. Don't respond to that letter of investigation, in the hopes the FAA will bless you through teary eyes and send you on your way. Call an attorney. You'll hear all day long that you don't need one. The person who tells you that does not have your best interests at heart. Know it. Embrace it.

The FAA is not your friend.[/QUOTE]..

..Unfortunately this kind of thinking has became the mentality in the US today..People trying to sneak away from their responsibilities, and hide behind the lawyers when they know they are wrong..

..What about accepting the mistake when it happens..??..Be a man..
..My experience with the FAA / ATC has been the exact opposite..I have made a few mistakes in the past..As a professional pilot I have accepted the responsibility, and shared my views with the FAA /ATC..Guess what..Not a single investigation / violation on my record so far, after 30 yrs of flying around the world..

..Here is my advise..Do as they say, be honest and accept your responsibilities..The best and easiest way to handle any situation, whether it happens in the skies or in everyday life..
..I have spoken..

Fly safe,
B757

JohnBurke
04-04-2018, 10:00 PM
Don't call the tower. Don't respond to that letter of investigation, in the hopes the FAA will bless you through teary eyes and send you on your way. Call an attorney. You'll hear all day long that you don't need one. The person who tells you that does not have your best interests at heart. Know it. Embrace it.

The FAA is not your friend...

..Unfortunately this kind of thinking has became the mentality in the US today..People trying to sneak away from their responsibilities, and hide behind the lawyers when they know they are wrong..

..What about accepting the mistake when it happens..??..Be a man..
..My experience with the FAA / ATC has been the exact opposite..I have made a few mistakes in the past..As a professional pilot I have accepted the responsibility, and shared my views with the FAA /ATC..Guess what..Not a single investigation / violation on my record so far, after 30 yrs of flying around the world..

..Here is my advise..Do as they say, be honest and accept your responsibilities..The best and easiest way to handle any situation, whether it happens in the skies or in everyday life..
..I have spoken..

Fly safe,
B757[/QUOTE]

It's advice, not advise.

Legal counsel has never been "be a man."

Yes, you have spoken, but badly. Foolishly, too, and clearly without foundation of understanding of experience.

Seeking legal counsel (this is a form on aviation law, a discussion of which is decidedly not "be a man," which has no bearing on a discussion of law, and is irrelevant) is not unmanly; it is the intelligent course of action when attending a legal matter.

If you have a medical issue, seek a doctor. If you seek to understand flight, seek a flight instructor. If you have a legal issue, see an attorney. This is not hiding behind an attorney. It's learning your rights and what to do and what not do to. Your counsel is the embracing of ignorance, which is neither prudent nor intelligent, and very, very bad advice (not advise) in all matters legal, and not.

Blackhawk
04-05-2018, 07:00 AM
Don't call the tower. Don't respond to that letter of investigation, in the hopes the FAA will bless you through teary eyes and send you on your way. Call an attorney. You'll hear all day long that you don't need one. The person who tells you that does not have your best interests at heart. Know it. Embrace it.

The FAA is not your friend...

..Unfortunately this kind of thinking has became the mentality in the US today..People trying to sneak away from their responsibilities, and hide behind the lawyers when they know they are wrong..

..What about accepting the mistake when it happens..??..Be a man..
..My experience with the FAA / ATC has been the exact opposite..I have made a few mistakes in the past..As a professional pilot I have accepted the responsibility, and shared my views with the FAA /ATC..Guess what..Not a single investigation / violation on my record so far, after 30 yrs of flying around the world..

..Here is my advise..Do as they say, be honest and accept your responsibilities..The best and easiest way to handle any situation, whether it happens in the skies or in everyday life..
..I have spoken..

Fly safe,
B757[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately not all FSDO's and not all Safety Inspectors are the same. There are some who view suspensions, even over minor issues, as a means of safety enhancement.
I saw one young CFI with your attitude go into a FSDO without legal representation and wind up with a 15 day suspension for a right hand pattern. Did not interfere with any other traffic, no safety issue. Heck, he did what most of us probably would have done. Someone else was already there in the wrong pattern as he came in off an instrument approach so he fell in behind him rather than cause an issue. Someone on the ground turned in him, but not the other airplane.
He was honest and "manned up" without legal representation and had his flying career killed before it even began.

GogglesPisano
04-05-2018, 07:09 AM
..Unfortunately this kind of thinking has became the mentality in the US today..People trying to sneak away from their responsibilities, and hide behind the lawyers when they know they are wrong..

..What about accepting the mistake when it happens..??..Be a man..
..My experience with the FAA / ATC has been the exact opposite..I have made a few mistakes in the past..As a professional pilot I have accepted the responsibility, and shared my views with the FAA /ATC..Guess what..Not a single investigation / violation on my record so far, after 30 yrs of flying around the world..

..Here is my advise..Do as they say, be honest and accept your responsibilities..The best and easiest way to handle any situation, whether it happens in the skies or in everyday life..
..I have spoken..

Fly safe,
B757

This is probably some of the worst advice I've ever read on APC.



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