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View Full Version : Corporate to Airlines venting...


FMGEC
12-05-2017, 07:30 PM
Just need to vent this out-

Think back 20, 15, even 10 years ago; The airline pilot gig wasn’t so good for many, and a lot of us were out looking for jobs/looking for a change. Many of us, including myself looked into corporate flying and went through friends/acquaintances/networking connections asking for info and assistance for jobs. The reasons for looking into corporate were many, but I remember many of my corporate friends talking about how much they loved their jobs.
“It’s been great for my golf game!”
“I’m home every night with the family.”
“Pay is double/triple what I’d get at the airlines.”
“Excellent health/retirement/vacation.”
“I get paid airline tickets and hotels, and I get all the miles and hotel points. Took the family to Hawaii last month and it cost nothing because it was all on points!”
“Greatest job in the world. Never want to go to the airlines.”
Sounded great, and it was nice to hear from people that were happy, while us airline guys were getting our skulls beat in.
So, when times were tough I asked a couple of those guys for recommendations to get into corporate world. Responses were very similar-
“I’d love to help you, but it’s tough to get into corporate if you’re an airline guy.”
“Corporate is service-based, and they don’t like airline guys because they won’t throw bags into the cargo space/clean the airplane/blah blah blah”
“You’ll need to go to FlightSafety and get yourself a [insert type rating here] type in order for anyone to look at you. Even then, they won’t take you cause it’s too competitive amongst those already in corporate.”

But now that times have changed, those same corporate acquaintances of mine are in a rush to get into the airlines. Now I’m getting asked- “Can you help me out? Can you send in a recommendation for me?”
I ask them why they want out of their corporate gig-
“My pay sucks”
“My retirement is nothing compared to what I’d make at the airlines.”
“The flying is boring.”
“Job security is marginal”
Asking them further, has their pay been cut? Have they lost benefits? What’s the big difference compared to when they were happy people 10+ years ago? Basically, there wasn’t much change, just that they haven’t gotten the pay increases to the levels that the airlines have over the past 8 years. (Trying to explain to them that the pay rates at the airlines are not increases, more like restorations to what we were at 15 years ago minus inflation.)

One dude I know wants to go straight to FedEx. Says he likes their benefits and pay. Almost implies that he should have a good chance at a job there. He’s never flown anything bigger than a Citation, and has zero 121 time, including regionals. And his yearly flight time is under 300 hours. He doesn’t even know anyone at FedEx.

Have a couple others that are of the same mindset- that they should just be able to get an interview at SWA/UAL/DAL/FDX/UPS immediately because there is a “pilot shortage.”

So, my vent is- what’s the deal? Airlines suck and people want to go to corporate... “Good luck- that’s not gonna happen.”
But now that airlines are better, corporate want to go to airlines and they should be an easy application/interview/hire. Just kinda rubs me the wrong way.
I dunno-

And another thing- my bourbon glass is empty.


at6d
12-05-2017, 07:35 PM
Don’t worry. I found the problem. You need more bourbon. The rest doesn’t matter.

And on that note, I’m off for a glass myself.

FMGEC
12-05-2017, 07:37 PM
Advice taken- thank you


Skyward
12-05-2017, 10:43 PM
I’ve done both... switched and switched again. Airline —> REALLY good corporate gig —> awesome airline job

Just be a humble airline guy at a corporate interview with the right attitude and a go-getter spirit, then you stand a good chance. Or be a humble corporate guy at an airline interview with the right attitude and a go-getter spirit, then you stand a good chance there as well. As we all know, getting the interview is the hard part and usually requires lots of leg work mixed with great timing.

Albief15
12-06-2017, 12:24 AM
More bourbon is rarely wrong if you aren't driving or flying soon...

That said...relax...you won. You hung on, and now you've got the seniority and a rebounding industry to enjoy for a while.

Here's my synopsis....

A fighter pilot looks in the mirror and says "who da man?" The answer: "YOU da man!"

An airline pilot looks in the a mirror and says "Who da man?" The answer: "Sully IS the man. But if Sully ain't captain--then YOU da man!"

A corporate guy looks in the mirror and says "Who da man?" The answer: "The man is back 8 feet behind the curtain. You picked up his dry cleaning for him on the way to the FBO..."

Not everyone is built for corporate. I know some guys who have done the job and done very well. I also know some who left killer jobs for big name Part 91 owners to go fly for Jetblue or SWA...because they'd rather drive a bus and "be the man". May sound silly--but I darn sure like being an airline captain. I'd pick up cans or bottles to feed my family if I needed to, but given the choice I think there are very, very few jobs that give you the time off and autonomy we have in our career. I'll take a ****ty hub turn now and then over living on a beeper anyday.

mainlineAF
12-06-2017, 01:35 AM
Please go post this on pro pilot world lol

ebl14
12-06-2017, 01:26 PM
I feel your pain. I’ve done both and I know it can be very frustrating trying to get a rec. One thing I’ll add, a rec at a small corporate operation is a heck of a lot different than a rec at an airline with 14,000+ pilots. Not saying you didn’t deserve it, but lots of times if a Corp guy recs someone who doesn’t work out (or quits to go back to the airlines etc) their reputation will be tarnished. In the airline world, recs are a dime a dozen with no real downside for the person writing it.

My 2 cents, if you like the guy, be the bigger man and write them the rec. I’d always rather go through life with one more friend.

ebl14
12-06-2017, 01:47 PM
Here is what you missed out on...

https://youtu.be/lDY9R43VI8c

Big E 757
12-06-2017, 04:59 PM
Just need to vent this out-

Think back 20, 15, even 10 years ago; The airline pilot gig wasn’t so good for many, and a lot of us were out looking for jobs/looking for a change. Many of us, including myself looked into corporate flying and went through friends/acquaintances/networking connections asking for info and assistance for jobs. The reasons for looking into corporate were many, but I remember many of my corporate friends talking about how much they loved their jobs.
“It’s been great for my golf game!”
“I’m home every night with the family.”
“Pay is double/triple what I’d get at the airlines.”
“Excellent health/retirement/vacation.”
“I get paid airline tickets and hotels, and I get all the miles and hotel points. Took the family to Hawaii last month and it cost nothing because it was all on points!”
“Greatest job in the world. Never want to go to the airlines.”
Sounded great, and it was nice to hear from people that were happy, while us airline guys were getting our skulls beat in.
So, when times were tough I asked a couple of those guys for recommendations to get into corporate world. Responses were very similar-
“I’d love to help you, but it’s tough to get into corporate if you’re an airline guy.”
“Corporate is service-based, and they don’t like airline guys because they won’t throw bags into the cargo space/clean the airplane/blah blah blah”
“You’ll need to go to FlightSafety and get yourself a [insert type rating here] type in order for anyone to look at you. Even then, they won’t take you cause it’s too competitive amongst those already in corporate.”

But now that times have changed, those same corporate acquaintances of mine are in a rush to get into the airlines. Now I’m getting asked- “Can you help me out? Can you send in a recommendation for me?”
I ask them why they want out of their corporate gig-
“My pay sucks”
“My retirement is nothing compared to what I’d make at the airlines.”
“The flying is boring.”
“Job security is marginal”
Asking them further, has their pay been cut? Have they lost benefits? What’s the big difference compared to when they were happy people 10+ years ago? Basically, there wasn’t much change, just that they haven’t gotten the pay increases to the levels that the airlines have over the past 8 years. (Trying to explain to them that the pay rates at the airlines are not increases, more like restorations to what we were at 15 years ago minus inflation.)

One dude I know wants to go straight to FedEx. Says he likes their benefits and pay. Almost implies that he should have a good chance at a job there. He’s never flown anything bigger than a Citation, and has zero 121 time, including regionals. And his yearly flight time is under 300 hours. He doesn’t even know anyone at FedEx.

Have a couple others that are of the same mindset- that they should just be able to get an interview at SWA/UAL/DAL/FDX/UPS immediately because there is a “pilot shortage.”

So, my vent is- what’s the deal? Airlines suck and people want to go to corporate... “Good luck- that’s not gonna happen.”
But now that airlines are better, corporate want to go to airlines and they should be an easy application/interview/hire. Just kinda rubs me the wrong way.
I dunno-

And another thing- my bourbon glass is empty.


I’ll do you one better. In 2001, I wrote recommendations for 3 friends to try to get them interviews with Delta. An AirTran Pilot, a JetBlue Pilot, and a friend at Eagle. In 2002, when I found myself being broomed out the door, I reached out to the AirTran guy and he walked my stuff in. I called the JetBlue friend and his response was, “What will you do if you get recalled? You’ll leave and go back right?” You probably won’t ever get recalled anyway, Delta will never survive this anyway....”-click. He hung up on me. I couldn’t believe it. A year earlier, he was begging for help and when I needed help, he enjoyed my pain so thoroughly, it made me ill.

I experienced the same challenges the first year trying to break into the corporate world. As an Airline furloughee, it takes a lot of luck along with everything else, and you’re at a huge disadvantage out of the gate. However, I agree with all the other responses on here. Corporate departments are small and a guy that they train and leaves in a year would look bad on the person doing the recommending, most likely. Also, as has been said, be the bigger man. Help someone out if you can, even if they turned their back on you. But you might remind the friend how they left you hanging when you needed the helping hand. It might be worth a case of good bourbon some day.

Disclaimer: I know my former friends actions in no way represent the overall JetBlue Pilots. Ive been treated great when I’ve jumpseated with you guys and girls. It was the person, not the Airline talking.

Airhoss
12-07-2017, 07:06 AM
I’ll do you one better. In 2001, I wrote recommendations for 3 friends to try to get them interviews with Delta. An AirTran Pilot, a JetBlue Pilot, and a friend at Eagle. In 2002, when I found myself being broomed out the door, I reached out to the AirTran guy and he walked my stuff in. I called the JetBlue friend and his response was, “What will you do if you get recalled? You’ll leave and go back right?” You probably won’t ever get recalled anyway, Delta will never survive this anyway....”-click. He hung up on me. I couldn’t believe it. A year earlier, he was begging for help and when I needed help, he enjoyed my pain so thoroughly, it made me ill.

I experienced the same challenges the first year trying to break into the corporate world. As an Airline furloughee, it takes a lot of luck along with everything else, and you’re at a huge disadvantage out of the gate. However, I agree with all the other responses on here. Corporate departments are small and a guy that they train and leaves in a year would look bad on the person doing the recommending, most likely. Also, as has been said, be the bigger man. Help someone out if you can, even if they turned their back on you. But you might remind the friend how they left you hanging when you needed the helping hand. It might be worth a case of good bourbon some day.

Disclaimer: I know my former friends actions in no way represent the overall JetBlue Pilots. Ive been treated great when I’ve jumpseated with you guys and girls. It was the person, not the Airline talking.

I try to always treat people the way I want to be treated. And that includes an honest answer. The truth of the matter is that my LOR is not a magic carpet ride into a new hire class.

If I am unwilling to write that letter I will tell the person why. If I am willing to write that letter they need to understand how limited it’s effect may be.

I’ve also done corporate flying in the past. It has been my experience that the number one topic that corporate guys like to talk trash about are airline guys. I don’t take it personal. It’s just the ying and yang of the cultures.

BoilerUP
12-07-2017, 08:50 AM
The airline world looks a HELL of a lot different today than it did in 2002 or 2009.

Post 9/11, bizav departments BOOMED and airlines furloughed thousands; decisions were validated. 05-07 saw hiring at airlines, then the Great Recession which arguably hit bizav harder than it did airlines, and as flight departments with decades of history closed their doors due to falling stock prices or activist traders or political pressure those decisions got questioned again.

Today, airline pay has gone up significantly to the point where NBAA Jet V PIC pay can be equaled in the second or third year of FO pay at some airlines - without consideration to retirement and health benefits which in my experience grossly lag in many corporate flight departments.

Just at my airline, pilots from a number of Fortune 500 companies have been hired in the last couple of year; three departments off the top of my head have had at least 3 pilots hired.

I can understand preferring the bizav lifestyle - who doesn't like crew cars and staying at JWs and steak dinners on the company AMEX as opposed to perdiem and airport food and min-rest stays at a HGI - but $$$ has a way of talking and math generally puts airlines on top of all but the VERY best HNWI flying gigs.

"Any port in a storm"...and right now, seas are calm and the sun in shining. I'd never blame a person for looking to change segments of industry chasing the gold, nor would I blame a person attempting to protect his employer from someone that *could* get a type rating and then quickly split. Help people when you can and don't be a d!ck if you can't, but ultimately the onus is on the person seeking a recommendation to prove their "worthiness" in all that entails.

Says the RJ FO to Citation Co-Capt to Citation CP to major cargo airline FO who has written numerous LORs for 91 guys seeking a 121 job...

cactusmike
12-07-2017, 12:07 PM
My short time flying charter/corporate showed me that the world of corporate flying is very insular. Guys don’t want to talk about getting on with their company because they see everything as a threat to their job. I did contract flying and the other guy was paranoid that I wanted his job.

Most guys that I have flown with in the airline that came from corporate are great, and they have good stories to tell. But even in the depths of the downturn for us, having an airline job is seen as more stable that corporate gigs. My personal philosophy is, in corporate the business doesn’t depend on the airplane. In the airline world, the business is all about the plane. I’d rather be the widget than the box the widget comes in. If you business depends on the plane it’s going to take a total meltdown for you to lose that job. (Though I have been there) In corporate, one business sneeze and you can be gone.

badflaps
12-07-2017, 04:32 PM
My short time flying charter/corporate showed me that the world of corporate flying is very insular. Guys don’t want to talk about getting on with their company because they see everything as a threat to their job. I did contract flying and the other guy was paranoid that I wanted his job.

Most guys that I have flown with in the airline that came from corporate are great, and they have good stories to tell. But even in the depths of the downturn for us, having an airline job is seen as more stable that corporate gigs. My personal philosophy is, in corporate the business doesn’t depend on the airplane. In the airline world, the business is all about the plane. I’d rather be the widget than the box the widget comes in. If you business depends on the plane it’s going to take a total meltdown for you to lose that job. (Though I have been there) In corporate, one business sneeze and you can be gone.
General Electric comes to mind.

jcountry
12-07-2017, 06:01 PM
I’ll do you one better. In 2001, I wrote recommendations for 3 friends to try to get them interviews with Delta. An AirTran Pilot, a JetBlue Pilot, and a friend at Eagle. In 2002, when I found myself being broomed out the door, I reached out to the AirTran guy and he walked my stuff in. I called the JetBlue friend and his response was, “What will you do if you get recalled? You’ll leave and go back right?” You probably won’t ever get recalled anyway, Delta will never survive this anyway....”-click. He hung up on me. I couldn’t believe it. A year earlier, he was begging for help and when I needed help, he enjoyed my pain so thoroughly, it made me ill.

I experienced the same challenges the first year trying to break into the corporate world. As an Airline furloughee, it takes a lot of luck along with everything else, and you’re at a huge disadvantage out of the gate. However, I agree with all the other responses on here. Corporate departments are small and a guy that they train and leaves in a year would look bad on the person doing the recommending, most likely. Also, as has been said, be the bigger man. Help someone out if you can, even if they turned their back on you. But you might remind the friend how they left you hanging when you needed the helping hand. It might be worth a case of good bourbon some day.

Disclaimer: I know my former friends actions in no way represent the overall JetBlue Pilots. Ive been treated great when I’ve jumpseated with you guys and girls. It was the person, not the Airline talking.

Sorry your good Karma wasn’t repaid.

Can’t help thinking about ASA.

We bent over backwards to hire every furloughed delta guy/gal who would have us. And we were privileged to have them. Made us all feel warm and fuzzy.

Now, look what’s happening to ASA. Never a flow, never anything (all the northwest regionals had flows which were honored-for what?) But ASA gets the old “thanks a lot for your nearly 40+ years of service to our customers.... **** you very much!”

Not saying it’s your fault, or any delta employee’s..... But to Comair an airline which really did so many guys right when they needed it..... mgmt should be ashamed.

Karma is fickle.

Big E 757
12-07-2017, 06:15 PM
Sorry your good Karma wasn’t repaid.

Can’t help thinking about ASA.

We bent over backwards to hire every furloughed delta guy/gal who would have us. And we were privileged to have them. Made us all feel warm and fuzzy.

Now, look what’s happening to ASA. Never a flow, never anything. Just “thanks a lot for your 30+ years of service to our customers.... **** you very much!”

Not saying it’s your fault, or any delta employee’s..... But to Comair an airline which really did so many guys right when they needed it..... mgmt should be ashamed.

Karma is fickle.

What is happening to ASA does suck. I’m sorry. I haven’t forgotten how you guys hired quite a few of our guys while JC Lawson, Comair, and the RJDC gave us all the middle finger.

PM sent.

jcountry
12-07-2017, 06:47 PM
What is happening to ASA does suck. I’m sorry. I haven’t forgotten how you guys hired quite a few of our guys while JC Lawson, Comair, and the RJDC gave us all the middle finger.

PM sent.

I'm glad you remember. It's satisfying that some people do. I just wish things had turned out differently. ASA deserved much better.

spikemath
12-07-2017, 10:09 PM
Sorry your good Karma wasn’t repaid.

Can’t help thinking about ASA.

We bent over backwards to hire every furloughed delta guy/gal who would have us. And we were privileged to have them. Made us all feel warm and fuzzy.

Now, look what’s happening to ASA. Never a flow, never anything (all the northwest regionals had flows which were honored-for what?) But ASA gets the old “thanks a lot for your nearly 40+ years of service to our customers.... **** you very much.

Not really my place to stir anything up in this conversation but at the recent Delta job fair the Captain over the hiring department made it pretty clear they were giving preferential consideration to all ASA/Expressjet applicants. Not sure what that entails but he said each of their applications on file would be looked at again closely.

Al Czervik
12-08-2017, 03:54 AM
I try to always treat people the way I want to be treated. And that includes an honest answer. The truth of the matter is that my LOR is not a magic carpet ride into a new hire class.

If I am unwilling to write that letter I will tell the person why. If I am willing to write that letter they need to understand how limited it’s effect may be.

I’ve also done corporate flying in the past. It has been my experience that the number one topic that corporate guys like to talk trash about are airline guys. I don’t take it personal. It’s just the ying and yang of the cultures.

Do corporate guys really talk a lot of trash about airline guys?
I flew corporate a long time ago but don’t remember that.

Pogey Bait
12-08-2017, 05:26 AM
Not really my place to stir anything up in this conversation but at the recent Delta job fair the Captain over the hiring department made it pretty clear they were giving preferential consideration to all ASA/Expressjet applicants. Not sure what that entails but he said each of their applications on file would be looked at again closely.

Fill me in please, what is happening with ASA/Express Jet?

Big E 757
12-08-2017, 05:40 AM
Do corporate guys really talk a lot of trash about airline guys?
I flew corporate a long time ago but don’t remember that.

While on furlough, I got a job flying a Falcon 20. The owner had an office in London so they sent us to flight safety for a 3 day world wide ops course. Two of the guys in the class, both life long Corporate pilots, had comments or anecdotes about “Airline guys” every 10 minutes. All through the class, for three days, these guys had an “airline guy” comment for everything. It was very annoying.

On day two, right before lunch, my buddy who was a furloughed NWA pilot lit into the guy. They went back and forth for several minutes in a heated exchange. It was comical and after that he pumped the brakes a little but still kept at it.

I can’t even remember any specifics about what exactly he was saying about us, but it was clear he absolutely hated us and was glad that the industry and it’s pilots were struggling.

galaxy flyer
12-08-2017, 07:52 AM
While on furlough, I got a job flying a Falcon 20. The owner had an office in London so they sent us to flight safety for a 3 day world wide ops course. Two of the guys in the class, both life long Corporate pilots, had comments or anecdotes about “Airline guys” every 10 minutes. All through the class, for three days, these guys had an “airline guy” comment for everything. It was very annoying.

On day two, right before lunch, my buddy who was a furloughed NWA pilot lit into the guy. They went back and forth for several minutes in a heated exchange. It was comical and after that he pumped the brakes a little but still kept at it.

I can’t even remember any specifics about what exactly he was saying about us, but it was clear he absolutely hated us and was glad that the industry and it’s pilots were struggling.

There are those kind of a**hats everywhere. My operation was 50/50 mil/civilian and had about 1/3 airline furloughees or former RJ guys who wanted out. The RJ guys stayed, except for one, in corporate operations. The furloughees, to a one, stayed here. Four went airline due to family changes where the schedule was paramount.

Corporates are starving for guys with good experience, it’s a generational turnover, just like the airlines.

GF

Salukidawg
12-08-2017, 08:06 AM
I seriously don’t know where the Corporate outfits are going to find qualified pilots over the next decade. As has already been stated several times on this thread, the Corpoations simply can’t or won’t compensate their pilots the way most of the Big 4 Airlines can. Every time I see one of these Corporate jets takeoff in front of me, I always wonder how many of those guys have their apps in at most of the majors. I suspect a good number of them, and what’s worse is their companies probably have no clue that they do. Both Corporate and the Regionals are going to be hurting big time for pilots in the next few years.

Mink
12-08-2017, 08:07 AM
It’s all very cyclical, and there are “10%er” d-bags in all areas of the flying industry that help create images that the other 90% don’t necessarily deserve.

When airline hiring is good, Corp gets a reputation (maybe somewhat deserved) as a dumping ground for the broken toys that couldn't get to the big leagues. I worry (as a former airline and now Corp guy) that that will again be the case.

spikemath
12-08-2017, 08:23 AM
Fill me in please, what is happening with ASA/Express Jet?

Expressjet lost its contract with delta which has caused them to close down their Atlanta base. Most operations have been moved out to Texas, and I believe they’re down to strictly 145 flying for United and 20 CRJ200s for American. I’m not at Expressjet and I’m sure there’s more to the story (SkyWest just opened Atlanta as a base).

deadseal
12-08-2017, 08:55 AM
I don’t have boots on the ground, so could be way out to left field, but Skywest inc. bought asa. Asa has a union and costs more to operate. I think you can take it from there. Jmho

John Carr
12-08-2017, 09:30 AM
I don’t have boots on the ground, so could be way out to left field, but Skywest inc. bought asa. Asa has a union and costs more to operate. I think you can take it from there. Jmho

Correct, way out in left field.

DAL is simply done with CRJ side of L-ASA of XJT.

If it was as you suspect, they would have shed themselves of the ERJ side of XJT long long ago.

deadseal
12-08-2017, 09:40 AM
Correct, way out in left field.

DAL is simply done with CRJ side of L-ASA of XJT.

If it was as you suspect, they would have shed themselves of the ERJ side of XJT long long ago.

Copy, I just have a friend at asa, and he felt this way. Could be a case where feelings get in front of reality.
I think the relationship is not good between SW inc and asa, and they feel they are being slowly suffocated.
Maybe asa dudes could chime in if they care

Is skywest pumping any money (e-190s) into ASA?

John Carr
12-08-2017, 09:52 AM
Copy, I just have a friend at asa, and he felt this way. Could be a case where feelings get in front of reality.

If it were simply about Inc/SGU management being anti union, it would have happened long long ago.

As in, when the ERJ/CRJ pilot group voted down the joke of a JCBA that was offered.

I think the relationship is not good between SW inc and asa, and they feel they are being slowly suffocated.

It probably never has been. Nor with the ERJ side of XJT. SGU has done NOTHING but a horrible since the acquisition of XJT by ASA, with SKW's money.

Is skywest pumping any money (e-190s) into ASA?

Most is nothing but a financial shell game.

Things not looking good? Simply blame XJT (ASA) for a failing operation and losing money......

Varsity
12-08-2017, 02:49 PM
I've done 91 and 135 corporate. I don't recall any 'anti airline' or 'them vs. us' attitudes.

Mostly complaining about the inconsistent bosses/trips/schedules/crappy equipment. We didn't 'love' our jobs and I feel like we were just as pragmatic about it as pilots in the 121 world.

galaxy flyer
12-08-2017, 03:02 PM
I seriously don’t know where the Corporate outfits are going to find qualified pilots over the next decade. As has already been stated several times on this thread, the Corpoations simply can’t or won’t compensate their pilots the way most of the Big 4 Airlines can. Every time I see one of these Corporate jets takeoff in front of me, I always wonder how many of those guys have their apps in at most of the majors. I suspect a good number of them, and what’s worse is their companies probably have no clue that they do. Both Corporate and the Regionals are going to be hurting big time for pilots in the next few years.

There are “lifers” there as everywhere else. If you’re 50+, have kids in college, have a 15 minute commute, like the operation and the mgt, staying at a corporate can make sense for many.

GF

GogglesPisano
12-08-2017, 03:03 PM
While on furlough, I got a job flying a Falcon 20. The owner had an office in London so they sent us to flight safety for a 3 day world wide ops course. Two of the guys in the class, both life long Corporate pilots, had comments or anecdotes about “Airline guys” every 10 minutes. All through the class, for three days, these guys had an “airline guy” comment for everything. It was very annoying.

On day two, right before lunch, my buddy who was a furloughed NWA pilot lit into the guy. They went back and forth for several minutes in a heated exchange. It was comical and after that he pumped the brakes a little but still kept at it.

I can’t even remember any specifics about what exactly he was saying about us, but it was clear he absolutely hated us and was glad that the industry and it’s pilots were struggling.

Sounds the corporate guy had a case of gloating covering up a deep-seated, long-term envy.

Mink
12-08-2017, 03:14 PM
While on furlough, I got a job flying a Falcon 20. The owner had an office in London so they sent us to flight safety for a 3 day world wide ops course. Two of the guys in the class, both life long Corporate pilots, had comments or anecdotes about “Airline guys” every 10 minutes. All through the class, for three days, these guys had an “airline guy” comment for everything. It was very annoying.

On day two, right before lunch, my buddy who was a furloughed NWA pilot lit into the guy. They went back and forth for several minutes in a heated exchange. It was comical and after that he pumped the brakes a little but still kept at it.

I can’t even remember any specifics about what exactly he was saying about us, but it was clear he absolutely hated us and was glad that the industry and it’s pilots were struggling.

D-bags are present in all parts of the flying business.

The bigger issue is...why, in every class, is there the obligatory guy (or guys) that have to prolong my beerlessness with witty comments, "real world" stories, and out-of-left-field questions? I'm all for a useful exchange of professional info in these settings, but c'mon.

There is such a thing as a stupid question.

Airhoss
12-08-2017, 06:01 PM
Do corporate guys really talk a lot of trash about airline guys?
I flew corporate a long time ago but don’t remember that.

That was my experience. I did corporate contract flying for about 5 years after I got on with the airlines and experienced the same then too.

kingairfun
12-08-2017, 10:11 PM
What is happening to ASA does suck. I’m sorry. I haven’t forgotten how you guys hired quite a few of our guys while JC Lawson, Comair, and the RJDC gave us all the middle finger.

PM sent.


Funny, while I was at Comair during that whole stretch of time, through the furlough, bankruptcy, resignation requirement.... I don't ever recall being solicited for my opinion about hiring Delta guys... which I would have been all for seeing how I wanted to work at Delta.

I must have missed the pilot vote on that issue...

Instead there were dirty looks,, uncomfortable jumpseats, and negative comments..

Now I tell others, " **** I hope we never merge with Delta."

Not that you'll listen, but it was the company that wanted the resignation requirement.. Union had nothing to do with it.. Sure you will say we should have pressed the company.. but I'll argue we had more to worry about given our pay cuts and sham bankruptcy due to Mother D cooking our books. We hired off the street for maybe a year ( while D furloughed) before we started taking pay freezes and pay cuts.. not like we were taking a windfall at the Delta pilots expense. That would have been Chitaqua and Mesa. ( or whatever they are called now)

The RJDC was about ALPA bargaining for scope at Mainline, which was/is a direct conflict of interest seeing how they represented our pilots as well.

Skyward
12-08-2017, 10:47 PM
Funny, while I was at Comair during that whole stretch of time, through the furlough, bankruptcy, resignation requirement.... I don't ever recall being solicited for my opinion about hiring Delta guys... which I would have been all for seeing how I wanted to work at Delta.

I must have missed the pilot vote on that issue...

Instead there were dirty looks,, uncomfortable jumpseats, and negative comments..

Now I tell others, " **** I hope we never merge with Delta."

Not that you'll listen, but it was the company that wanted the resignation requirement.. Union had nothing to do with it.. Sure you will say we should have pressed the company.. but I'll argue we had more to worry about given our pay cuts and sham bankruptcy due to Mother D cooking our books. We hired off the street for maybe a year ( while D furloughed) before we started taking pay freezes and pay cuts.. not like we were taking a windfall at the Delta pilots expense. That would have been Chitaqua and Mesa. ( or whatever they are called now)

The RJDC was about ALPA bargaining for scope at Mainline, which was/is a direct conflict of interest seeing how they represented our pilots as well.

That’s exactly right. It was never brought to a vote

kingairfun
12-08-2017, 11:33 PM
That’s exactly right. It was never brought to a vote

although our MEC sought certain stipulations from DALPA, in the end, CALPA was not in charge of hiring. Comair employed a hIring department, which did not include CALPA input. This is a fact that cannot be lost on DALPA. It was all a propoganda play.


We were treated like red headed step children ever since the "merger" .. which wasn't a merger because ALPA chose not to do a traditional merger because they were dead set against the RJ.. much like they were against the 737 and DC9 on the 60's although those a/c brought unprecedented growth and pay increases for mainline. They were against the 737 and -9 because they perceived the loss of the engineeer as a threat to jobs.

On top of that Delta decided to farm out our flying ( and ultimately Delta's) to the lowest bidder because of restrictions created by DALPA. So a carrier owned by Delta, lost flying and growth and revenue, to the lowest bidder, because of a Delta decision. ( on more than one occasion) Republic and Mesa( Freedom) won the RFP's, and did a bang up job.

Delta and DALPA, cut off its nose to spite its face.. they cannabalized one of their own businesses, and revenue streams.. they also sold ASA 6 years after purchase.

The amount of conflicts of interest are astounding. All the while, maybe a dozen pilots went to ASA, many did not stay, and both comappanoes are preety much done 15 years later.

Big E 757
12-09-2017, 03:34 AM
Funny, while I was at Comair during that whole stretch of time, through the furlough, bankruptcy, resignation requirement.... I don't ever recall being solicited for my opinion about hiring Delta guys... which I would have been all for seeing how I wanted to work at Delta.

I must have missed the pilot vote on that issue...

Instead there were dirty looks,, uncomfortable jumpseats, and negative comments..

Now I tell others, " **** I hope we never merge with Delta."

Not that you'll listen, but it was the company that wanted the resignation requirement.. Union had nothing to do with it.. Sure you will say we should have pressed the company.. but I'll argue we had more to worry about given our pay cuts and sham bankruptcy due to Mother D cooking our books. We hired off the street for maybe a year ( while D furloughed) before we started taking pay freezes and pay cuts.. not like we were taking a windfall at the Delta pilots expense. That would have been Chitaqua and Mesa. ( or whatever they are called now)

The RJDC was about ALPA bargaining for scope at Mainline, which was/is a direct conflict of interest seeing how they represented our pilots as well.

Do you remember the letter JC Lawson wrote? I think it was addressed to Delta ALPA. It stated basically that any Delta pilot who wanted to pursue employment at Comair would have to resign their seniority, unless Delta gave Comair every large RJ order going forward from that point. If Comair was allowed to operate every 70 seater and larger, then, and only then, would Comair drop the requirement to resign our seniority.

I have that letter somewhere. If you’d like me to post it I’ll try to find it. I agree it wasn’t the individual pilots who chose not to help us out, but one of your pilots did and I never saw or heard anyone speak up against him.

kingairfun
12-09-2017, 03:00 PM
Do you remember the letter JC Lawson wrote? I think it was addressed to Delta ALPA. It stated basically that any Delta pilot who wanted to pursue employment at Comair would have to resign their seniority, unless Delta gave Comair every large RJ order going forward from that point. If Comair was allowed to operate every 70 seater and larger, then, and only then, would Comair drop the requirement to resign our seniority.

I have that letter somewhere. If you’d like me to post it I’ll try to find it. I agree it wasn’t the individual pilots who chose not to help us out, but one of your pilots did and I never saw or heard anyone speak up against him.

I remember there was a letter, do not recall its wording from that long ago. I do know it was not accepted by the Delta pilots all too well. JC was so full of himself if I recall. He didn't have any negotiating power to stipulate RJ deliveries. But thinking about it, why wouldn't Delta put RJ flying at Comair and ASA instead of Mesa?

Just like Delta pilots wanted scope on RJ's, we wanted to keep any RJ's in house instead of going to the lowest bidder. ( thus attempting to keep pay rates up.)

I was all for Mainline keeping their flying. Less RJ's the better. But if there were gonna be RJ deliveries, why not keep them with Delta wholly owned?

My point though is CALPA, up to that point had no input in hiring. Management, HR and our hiring department did the hiring. At any time Comair could have hired who they wanted, when they wanted. With no resignation. ,anagement chose not to because ot played into the hostility towards Comair, and helped with our whipsaw. And seeing how Delta owned Comair, it should have fallen on Delta to find a work for Delta furloughees at Comair, they had their guys from Delta Connection running Comair.

Delta chose to play Comair against Delta pilots, which is ironic because we should have all been pulling in the same direction seeing how we all benefitted from a healthy Delta Inc.

jcountry
12-09-2017, 04:32 PM
Do you remember the letter JC Lawson wrote? I think it was addressed to Delta ALPA. It stated basically that any Delta pilot who wanted to pursue employment at Comair would have to resign their seniority, unless Delta gave Comair every large RJ order going forward from that point. If Comair was allowed to operate every 70 seater and larger, then, and only then, would Comair drop the requirement to resign our seniority.

I have that letter somewhere. If you’d like me to post it I’ll try to find it. I agree it wasn’t the individual pilots who chose not to help us out, but one of your pilots did and I never saw or heard anyone speak up against him.


I wonder what old JC Lawson is up to these days......

Probably retired.

If I ever meet him, I'll be sure and let him know what a complete piece of dog**** I think he is.

His little ****ing contest decimated a whole lot of people who would have had some very different opportunities if not for his little ego trip.

Ar Pilot
12-09-2017, 04:32 PM
While on furlough, I got a job flying a Falcon 20. The owner had an office in London so they sent us to flight safety for a 3 day world wide ops course. Two of the guys in the class, both life long Corporate pilots, had comments or anecdotes about “Airline guys” every 10 minutes. All through the class, for three days, these guys had an “airline guy” comment for everything. It was very annoying.

On day two, right before lunch, my buddy who was a furloughed NWA pilot lit into the guy. They went back and forth for several minutes in a heated exchange. It was comical and after that he pumped the brakes a little but still kept at it.

I can’t even remember any specifics about what exactly he was saying about us, but it was clear he absolutely hated us and was glad that the industry and it’s pilots were struggling.

Yeah, sounds like someone got a TBNT from an airline interview back in the day.

jcountry
12-09-2017, 04:36 PM
D-bags are present in all parts of the flying business.

The bigger issue is...why, in every class, is there the obligatory guy (or guys) that have to prolong my beerlessness with witty comments, "real world" stories, and out-of-left-field questions? I'm all for a useful exchange of professional info in these settings, but c'mon.

There is such a thing as a stupid question.

HAHA!

There damn sure is at least one in every class.

Had an instructor once who kept referring to "that guy" every time a really stupid question was asked....

As in: "Y'all ever hear of 'that guy' in every class who is the class idiot? If you are looking around and can't figure out who 'that guy' is-it's you...."

And of course, 'that guy' never figured it out and kept right on asking stupid ass questions. Because-he really was the prototypical 'that guy.'

Airhoss
12-09-2017, 05:04 PM
HAHA!

There damn sure is at least one in every class.

Had an instructor once who kept referring to "that guy" every time a really stupid question was asked....

As in: "Y'all ever hear of 'that guy' in every class who is the class idiot? If you are looking around and can't figure out who 'that guy' is-it's you...."

And of course, 'that guy' never figured it out and kept right on asking stupid ass questions. Because-he really was the prototypical 'that guy.'

Back at my old company..........My other airplane does it like this...........When we used to ditch in high seas we'd call the company first..........Does fragleser circuit use 12 or 14 volt AC because those 12 volters are really prone to failure, there was this one time..........:rolleyes::rolleyes:

LibertyPilot
12-09-2017, 11:18 PM
After Flying corporate for 13 years and now flying 121 I can verify that a fair amount of corporate guys (90% older and corporate lifers/ never going to the airlines) have a prejudice against those in the Airline world. Here’s why:

Job threat: it’s kinda like an unspoken scope protection that exists amongst corporate pilots. They want to keep the flying amongst their own away from outsiders.

Past rejection: I came across several individuals who were rejected by a major once or several times, they never seemed to get over it.

Stuck on their path: Many guys are looking at retirement now and try to justify their path, one way is to denigrate the path you didnt take.

Fear of loosing pilots: some managers and chief pilots see how the ranks are dwindling, out of desperation they are trying to “save the younger guys” from a bad career choice. So they badmouth it hoping to persuade others to stay put.

No Union: this is the biggest reason IMHO, Corporate guys have to always think about themselves because no one else is, so the mindset is usually “ ME ME ME”. Also, for some reason a lot of corporate guys hate unions and in general are very right wingy.


Personally, corporate was never for me and leaving 2 years ago to go to a major was the best decision. It was just a place to hang my hat and gain experience during the lost decade. It is my belief that most of the younger guys crossing over to 121 don’t share the anti Airline guy mentality amongst the corporate lifers.

at6d
12-10-2017, 12:38 AM
Agreed. I think it also depends on what the corporate gig was.

Some gigs are spectacular, and some are the Great Lakes of the Part 91 world.

My corporate job was the result of the regional Bataan Death March during the lost decade—my family just couldn’t make ends meet anymore. We went to a 12 year upgrade, majors weren’t hiring, pilots we’re being furloughed...so corporate was a no brainer.

One thing some airline guys may not have an appreciation for, is the amount of work that some operators have to do to get a jet off the ground. I find 121 very cushy in that regard, with cleaning crews, dispatchers, fuelers, schedulers, maintainers, flight attendants, rampers...

In my corporate gig, those jobs were also my job. Plus we were on call 24/7.

If you meet a corporate pilot with a disdain for airline pilots, he either has a ****ty gig, doesn’t have the requirements, or was turned down by X Airline...

There are tool bags everywhere in aviation.

Al Czervik
12-10-2017, 02:08 AM
I remember there was a letter, do not recall its wording from that long ago. I do know it was not accepted by the Delta pilots all too well. JC was so full of himself if I recall. He didn't have any negotiating power to stipulate RJ deliveries. But thinking about it, why wouldn't Delta put RJ flying at Comair and ASA instead of Mesa?

Just like Delta pilots wanted scope on RJ's, we wanted to keep any RJ's in house instead of going to the lowest bidder. ( thus attempting to keep pay rates up.)

I was all for Mainline keeping their flying. Less RJ's the better. But if there were gonna be RJ deliveries, why not keep them with Delta wholly owned?

My point though is CALPA, up to that point had no input in hiring. Management, HR and our hiring department did the hiring. At any time Comair could have hired who they wanted, when they wanted. With no resignation. ,anagement chose not to because ot played into the hostility towards Comair, and helped with our whipsaw. And seeing how Delta owned Comair, it should have fallen on Delta to find a work for Delta furloughees at Comair, they had their guys from Delta Connection running Comair.

Delta chose to play Comair against Delta pilots, which is ironic because we should have all been pulling in the same direction seeing how we all benefitted from a healthy Delta Inc.

I’d like to see the letter. Been hearing about it for years.

jcountry
12-10-2017, 04:22 AM
I’d like to see the letter. Been hearing about it for years.

I remember seeing it, but don’t recall specifics.

JC was such an asshat, I’m sure it was drivel about “ DOH or nothing.”

God. That guy was a jerk on the level of the very worst the industry has ever produced.

Al Czervik
12-10-2017, 05:15 AM
I remember seeing it, but don’t recall specifics.

JC was such an asshat, I’m sure it was drivel about “ DOH or nothing.”

God. That guy was a jerk on the level of the very worst the industry has ever produced.

Overreaching with arrogance usually doesn’t pan out very well.

RJSAviator76
12-11-2017, 09:47 AM
If you meet a corporate pilot with a disdain for airline pilots, he either has a ****ty gig, doesn’t have the requirements, or was turned down by X Airline...

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There are also quite a few managers who have the "big fish in a small pond" syndrome, and when airlines are going through difficult times, these sadistic pricks take pleasure in laughing to the furloughed airline guys' faces. I've witnessed this first hand in VNY after my old airline tanked.

I'll just say that I have faith in our interview and screening process.