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View Full Version : HELP! SWA or Current gig?


BB818
12-11-2017, 04:57 PM
Hello All,
I have a class date at SWA but my employer just offered me 300K to stay, plus a defined benefit program comparable to the majors. I am a 44 -year old G-650 captain with an excellent resume (Fortune 100, Former major airline, former military,). I could have 20+ years at SWA but I'm gonna have to start all over (not crazy about that).

How long until I can make 200K as a commuter?
How realistic is it to pick up extra time as a commuter?
I think the upgrade time will come down in coming years. Thoughts?
Thoughts and opinions on my situation greatly appreciated.

This is a tough decision. I guess it's a good problem to have.
Thank you!


alfamike
12-11-2017, 05:07 PM
For me it was about the stabability and being “off” when I’m home (plus knowing when I will be home next month). You’ll make $300k eventually at SWA. If you’re sure you will be employed by the 650 operator for twenty years and the schedule is good, you probably would not have applied to SWA.

Alex.

flyguy81
12-11-2017, 05:10 PM
Without going crazy picking stuff up, prob looking around 4-5 yrs to make 200k.

Iíll do 150k or so this year but I live in base and pick up stuff every month.

Upgrade will prob come down to the 6-8 yr range....eventually. Maybe. Right now itís 10 yrs or so.

If youíre a short drive from work and the company is financially stable and offering that kind of $$$$.....Iíd have a hard time turning it down. Iíve never done Corp so not sure how 20+ yrs of sitting in FBOís and loading bags would be.


BB818
12-11-2017, 05:14 PM
I don't love my current job and the schedule in any corporate gig is only good when looking back over the previous month- never forward. I envy my airline colleagues but only the ones with seniority. Commuting also sucks. 300K is huge though. Man I'm torn. If I were younger it would be SWA all the way.

flyguy81
12-11-2017, 05:22 PM
I don't love my current job and the schedule in any corporate gig is only good when looking back over the previous month- never forward. I envy my airline colleagues but only the ones with seniority. Commuting also sucks. 300K is huge though. Man I'm torn. If I were younger it would be SWA all the way.

Would it be a easy or a hard commute? If youíre not happy with the current gig....is that kind of $$$ going to make you happy? Or will you still be miserable but with 💰? Iíd rather have less cash and be happy personally. You canít take it with you and lifeís too short to be miserable.

BB818
12-11-2017, 05:29 PM
I live in southern NH. My goal is to commute to BWI which, is one of the easiest commutes in the airline world.....but it's still a commute. I've read that the ave at SWA is 100 per month. How realistic is 110 or even 120hours conversion per months as a commuter?

NikeBuddy
12-11-2017, 05:39 PM
A lot depends on life/family circumstances, but if all else is equal. SWA.

Burton78
12-11-2017, 05:40 PM
I live in southern NH. My goal is to commute to BWI which, is one of the easiest commutes in the airline world.....but it's still a commute. I've read that the ave at SWA is 100 per month. How realistic is 110 or even 120hours conversion per months as a commuter?



What's most important to you? Money? Time off? Flexibility in schedule manipulation? Would you ever consider moving to a base? Are you confident you'll be at your current gig making 300K for the next 20+ years? These are all things that only you can answer for yourself.

Just another data point; I'm a commuter and I refuse to work more than to 14-15 days a month. I'd consider myself pretty middle of the road as far as monthly credit and I'm looking at around 175 as a 3rd year FO with a few months 4th year pay at the tail end (and that's considerably less than many friends I have hired in the same time frame I did if you're concerned about money). Next year I'd estimate an extra 20K if I credit the same. This is all excluding profit sharing and B fund contribution.




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flyguy81
12-11-2017, 05:41 PM
I live in southern NH. My goal is to commute to BWI which, is one of the easiest commutes in the airline world.....but it's still a commute. I've read that the ave at SWA is 100 per month. How realistic is 110 or even 120hours conversion per months as a commuter?

110 is easy. Iím there now for Dec and I havenít picked anything up all month. You could do 120 by picking up a day trip or 2 day pretty easily.

BB818
12-11-2017, 06:07 PM
I'm not afraid of working hard. Corporate is easily 10X harder and more stressful than my airline days. Having said that, $$ is important to me as well. I'm willing to work a lot, I'm just wondering what the realistic possibilities are as a commuter. Everyone hears stories of FO's making 300K or Captains making 400+ but I sit and wonder if those are the few, super-senior guys living in base. I don't expect to make that anytime soon however, it's important for me to develop a good sense of what's realistic within the next few years as I will have to take a massive paycut and probably work every weekend and holiday for years. Maybe I have a skewed sense from my days at DAL from 2000-2005 which included commuting to reserve 20 days /month, furlough, 50% pay-cut, bankruptcy, etc. Thank you for your input- very much appreciated.

flyguy81
12-11-2017, 06:44 PM
I'm not afraid of working hard. Corporate is easily 10X harder and more stressful than my airline days. Having said that, $$ is important to me as well. I'm willing to work a lot, I'm just wondering what the realistic possibilities are as a commuter. Everyone hears stories of FO's making 300K or Captains making 400+ but I sit and wonder if those are the few, super-senior guys living in base. I don't expect to make that anytime soon however, it's important for me to develop a good sense of what's realistic within the next few years as I will have to take a massive paycut and probably work every weekend and holiday for years. Maybe I have a skewed sense from my days at DAL from 2000-2005 which included commuting to reserve 20 days /month, furlough, 50% pay-cut, bankruptcy, etc. Thank you for your input- very much appreciated.


FWIW....if you did a 110 avg when you hit yr 5 youíll be at 200k. A 110 avg on yr 12 is 230k. Iím finishing my 2nd yr and will do 150k or so doing a 130 avg. Youíll get 15 off on rsv and 16-19 off as a line holder so thereís room to pick up as needed assuming youíre legal.

BB818
12-11-2017, 06:48 PM
Do you live in base?

flyguy81
12-11-2017, 07:06 PM
Do you live in base?

Yeah. Once you get some seniority though you can bid lines with ďdesirableĒ trips and get rid of them and then pick up trips for 1.5x. I know lots of commuters that do that but theyíve been here 5+ yrs.

Caveman
12-11-2017, 07:43 PM
6.5 tfp avg credit per day min guarantee. That's the MINIMUM you're going to credit for a days work.

The Senior/in Domicile can average north of 10 tfp per day during the peak months.

You'll have flexibility to fly less days in the slow months and fly more in the fast months. There are junior folks working as little as 6-8 days a month in slow months, and some working FAR 117 max in the summer months crediting over 200 TFP...AND EVERYTHING IN BETWEEN. And even some outliers above & below the above.

BWI is a very productive base, even as a commuter it won't be too hard to credit 110-120 a month. Your Seniority and flexibility on days worked will dictate how many days it takes you to hit that magic tfp #.

1300 tfp is a recent annual average used by the union for you to postulate #s with. Add per diem, 14.2% NEC 401k, and profit sharing and you have a good mark regarding total compensation. There's some pretty good health insurance options.

There are folks from some very credible cabin class operators at SWA. I think it'd be perfectly acceptable to make a decision either way, just crunch some good #s so you do the financial valuation part of the decision correctly first.

Then put all the intangibles that are a bit harder to assess a monetary value to like commuting, career stability, equipment, Work environment, job satisfaction, etc

Caveman
12-11-2017, 07:47 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/5144b129101fbbf7b7bc1670a437e373.jpg

BB818
12-11-2017, 07:55 PM
Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions!

Smooth at FL450
12-11-2017, 09:51 PM
How many years worth of that compensation is your boss willing to put into an escrow account, payable to you in full the day that job ceases to exist? $300k sounds great, until the airplane is sold. If they are asking for your commitment, then itís only fair to ask the same of them.

Corporate gigs are usually just 1 death or divorce away from going away (or one new CEO, just ask GEís flight Department). SWAs stability is something you could take to the bank.

WHACKMASTER
12-12-2017, 02:31 AM
PM sent.

Filler

TiredSoul
12-12-2017, 02:53 AM
Corporate gigs are usually just 1 death or divorce away from going away (or one new CEO, just ask GEís flight Department). SWAs stability is something you could take to the bank.

This ^^^
Unless youíre flying for Walmart or Target or Coca-Cola.

ZapBrannigan
12-12-2017, 03:40 AM
This ^^^

Unless youíre flying for Walmart or Target or Coca-Cola.


I was flying for Walmart for a while. In 2007 they laid off 15% of the pilots with no notice and not in seniority order and with no opportunity for recall. Even they are not immune to the uncertainty of a corporate aviation career.


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Packrat
12-12-2017, 03:44 AM
The uncertainty and stress of corporate flying would make me choose SWA. The only upside to your current position is there's no age restriction.

sherpster
12-12-2017, 04:44 AM
Have you actually seen a swa pilots schedule? Working lots of weekends is what I saw. I thought my acmi cargo FO gig was better since I at least got 2 weekends off a month. My understanding is the lines are non commutable on 1 end.

Iíd talk to some people who left swa first. 300k is a lot of cash, I cant imagine your gig is that bad.

Go ahead swa guys, flame me with your typical ďcouldnt get hired commentsĒ. Hired this past summer and decided to not go.

flyguy81
12-12-2017, 05:06 AM
Have you actually seen a swa pilots schedule? Working lots of weekends is what I saw. I thought my acmi cargo FO gig was better since I at least got 2 weekends off a month. My understanding is the lines are non commutable on 1 end.

Iíd talk to some people who left swa first. 300k is a lot of cash, I cant imagine your gig is that bad.

Go ahead swa guys, flame me with your typical ďcouldnt get hired commentsĒ. Hired this past summer and decided to not go.

Iím fairly junior (2 yrs) and can get half the weekend off if I wanted (Sun-Wed). Can hold weekend off rsv if I want that too. I bid weekends because Iíd rather have midweek off. To each his own.

BB818
12-12-2017, 05:30 AM
My job is very high stress. Worrying about the job going away is part of corporate flying which, is why it's good to always be making contacts and have a great resume (which I do). Getting off the bottom 10% at SWA = no more worrying but it's going to be a LONG time before I make what i make now let alone what I just got offered to stay. If were younger the choice be easily be SWA all day long. I need to sit on this a few days I think.

RckyMtHigh
12-12-2017, 05:34 AM
Have you actually seen a swa pilots schedule? Working lots of weekends is what I saw. I thought my acmi cargo FO gig was better since I at least got 2 weekends off a month. My understanding is the lines are non commutable on 1 end.

Iíd talk to some people who left swa first. 300k is a lot of cash, I cant imagine your gig is that bad.

Go ahead swa guys, flame me with your typical ďcouldnt get hired commentsĒ. Hired this past summer and decided to not go.

True to a point, but you may have missed the big picture. Probably 2 years working weekends, 2 years working half weekends, then weekends off until you choose to upgrade, depending on the senority of your base. I would guess thatís pretty comparable to every other flying gig out there. Non-commutable lines on one end is mostly true as well, but the union is working on that for 2020. Your control over your schedule gets better rapidly (at todayís hire rate) and with elitt trading. I wouldnít make that your deciding factor for a 20 year career.

Laramie
12-12-2017, 06:10 AM
My job is very high stress. Worrying about the job going away is part of corporate flying which, is why it's good to always be making contacts and have a great resume (which I do). Getting off the bottom 10% at SWA = no more worrying but it's going to be a LONG time before I make what i make now let alone what I just got offered to stay. If were younger the choice be easily be SWA all day long. I need to sit on this a few days I think.

If the company wants you that badly, they need to do what they do for top execs---seed a DC plan with a couple million dollars and provide you a contract with a guaranteed severance package.

Airline work is WORK. Especially if you commute!

nkbux
12-12-2017, 06:31 AM
Your 40 years old? SWA has NEVER furloughed a Pilot! No decision here go to Southwest and never look back. The money will come

swaayze
12-12-2017, 06:33 AM
Never done corporate, so this may be worth what you pay for it but....

It sounds like you want to do SWA.

If the only real plus to the current job is money Iíd say go. Nearly every major decision Iíve made that prioritized money turned out disappointing.

Big question - why did you not go back to Delta and do you regret that?


Good luck!

ZapBrannigan
12-12-2017, 06:47 AM
Getting off the bottom 10% at SWA = no more worrying


What does getting off the bottom 10% do?




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Indyjetav8er
12-12-2017, 07:01 AM
My fortune 225 company just let 31 people go and 3 airplanes. We flew a lot and the department was justifiable. Board members did not see it that way. Now I am at south west for security. The only complaint I have is $$$. And scheduling my off time when I want it not when seniority gives it to me. But I have security and time and it will get better. I was offered a job the same day I went to training the owner of the company was 72. Best case I saw 5years there and I would be where I am today. Wishing I came to SWA 5 or 10 ago.

ZapBrannigan
12-12-2017, 07:03 AM
has NEVER furloughed a Pilot!


And that means they never will? No. Seriously. Iíve worked for companies that have never furloughed - until they did. Iíve worked for places that said, ďThis is the last uniform youíll ever wear! You won the lottery!Ē and then I was furloughed again. ďIn 5 years youíll be a captain!ĒNope, furloughed again.

It is a business. If they donít need bodies to fly the airplanes, theyíll furlough too. The advantage at the airlines is that you know the rules to the game.

Let me give you an example.

If you fly for Galactic Airways, and they furlough you, and you donít touch an airplane for ten years... youíre making French fries at Sonic... when they finally recall, they will make you a pilot again.

If you fly for Waltonís Widget Corp, and they furlough you, and you donít touch an an airplane for ten years... youíre making French fries at Sonic... you might be done flying airplanes.

Furthermore, as an airline guy you can always look at the seniority list and see how many people you are away from furlough or recall. Itís strictly numbers.

As a corporate pilot, when you find out the department is going to lay off, you have to wonder... ďdoes she Chief pilot remember when I complained about that hotel expense report he denied 3 years ago?Ē

That said...

Corporate flying was MUCH more gentlemanly flying. I fly airplanes that were generations more advanced than the 737. I flew one or two legs a day. I took mid day naps at he FBO. The FBO lady made me warm cookies. Used clean bathrooms at the FBO. Had lunch on an expense account. Got to go to Osh Kosh on the company dime.

Would I go back? Not a chance. The ability to bid a schedule around all of the important events in my familyís life is invaluable.

Good luck with your decision! It isnít an easy one! My advice is get a job offer. Until you have a job offer there is no decision to make.


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solaero
12-12-2017, 07:06 AM
. . . Unless you’re flying for Walmart or Target or Coca-Cola.

Or GE, Pfizer, General Motors, General Mills, Kellogg's . . .

shoelu
12-12-2017, 08:33 AM
When you are flying under a Collective Bargaining Agreement your work life is laid out in black and white. Furloughs will only happen in seniority order. You have guaranteed seniority order in bidding for everything. There are rules governing mergers and acquisitions. ETC. ETC. ETC.

If you worried at all about job security over the long term go to SWA. $300,000 is a huge salary by almost any yardstick but if there is a chance of the flight department folding or being furloughed out of seniority order with no right of recall, then that salary is no longer a factor.

Could Southwest fold all together or furlough.....of course they could. But, the balance sheet is the strongest in the industry and a furlough would only touch a small portion of the seniority list with right of recall at the end.

Nothing is a certainty in this industry but if I had to put my eggs in one basket or the other, it seems that the airline basket (not just SWA), is the much safer choice in the long run.

BB818
12-12-2017, 08:46 AM
Thank you. I do have a class date at SWA for 1/9/18. I'm not wiling to move so I would commute for 20 years. I hear that the morning flights from MHT (NH) are full of commuters. This would make getting to work stressful. There is so much opportunity in corporate right now due to lack of experienced captains. This is really giving me pause.

BB818
12-12-2017, 08:52 AM
Huge regrets in some ways. I was hired at 26 and would've retired #4 in the company. Post 9/11 I was furloughed for 25 months, came back to 50% paycut, no retirement, no vacation and commuting to reserve in a crash pad 20 days every month. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was a voicemail from 2-year old daughter, distraught that i was not answering her (LOL she thought the recording was me). I thought to myself that in the next 6 years I would be gone for 4 of them from her. What kind of dad would be by doing that? At the time no one would hire an airline pilot that still had a seniority number so, I resigned and went to work for LMG. I should've lied and kept my number but, hindsight is always 20/20. I made the best decision i could at the time.

SlipKid
12-12-2017, 09:08 AM
Have you actually seen a swa pilots schedule? Working lots of weekends is what I saw. I thought my acmi cargo FO gig was better since I at least got 2 weekends off a month. My understanding is the lines are non commutable on 1 end.

Iíd talk to some people who left swa first. 300k is a lot of cash, I cant imagine your gig is that bad.

Go ahead swa guys, flame me with your typical ďcouldnt get hired commentsĒ. Hired this past summer and decided to not go.


LOL.... You saw one weekend line and assumed that was all we have?

I haven't involuntarily flown a weekend trip in over a decade.

shoelu
12-12-2017, 09:14 AM
I hear that the morning flights from MHT (NH) are full of commuters. This would make getting to work stressful.
Commuting is never easy but the commuter policy is fairly liberal. If you are listed on a SWA flight scheduled to arrive one hour prior to show time you are covered. Any combination of two flights scheduled to land prior to show time is also acceptable.

COMMUTER RULES The following sets forth the rules concerning a pilot who lives in a city other than his domicile:


A pilot who chooses to designate himself as a ďcommuterĒ must designate a city as a point of commuter origination.
A pilot must attempt to commute on a minimum of two (2) consecutive scheduled flights on Southwest or off-line from the designated city. If, because of flight cancellations, delays, lack of available seating (cabin or jumpseat), or delays beyond the commuterís control (diversion, etc.), the pilot will be unable to arrive prior to the scheduled report time, the Company will be notified immediately. Alternatively, the second scheduled flight is not required if the primary flight on Southwest is scheduled to arrive in domicile at least one (1) hour prior to check-in.

ZapBrannigan
12-12-2017, 09:18 AM
Huge regrets in some ways. I was hired at 26 and would've retired #4 in the company. Post 9/11 I was furloughed for 25 months, came back to 50% paycut, no retirement, no vacation and commuting to reserve in a crash pad 20 days every month. The straw that broke the camel's back for me was a voicemail from 2-year old daughter, distraught that i was not answering her (LOL she thought the recording was me). I thought to myself that in the next 6 years I would be gone for 4 of them from her. What kind of dad would be by doing that? At the time no one would hire an airline pilot that still had a seniority number so, I resigned and went to work for LMG. I should've lied and kept my number but, hindsight is always 20/20. I made the best decision i could at the time.


Been there my friend. I was hired at 26 and then furloughed for about 7 years after 9/11. When they finally recalled, the major was still bankrupt and had closed one of the largest domiciles. The contract was a shadow of what it had been pre 9/11. Taking a recall would have meant a paycut and a challenging commute to the Northeast. So I turned them down. Who wouldíve guessed that after a mega merger the job would have been entirely different a decade later.

I left corporate in 2013 when things started looking bleak at the department I was working for. I couldnít plan any life events with my family, and I was getting sideways with my boss frequently enough that I worried about my longevity.

Commuting from MHT shouldnít be too bad. Between MDW and BWI you have a variety of options. Nobody says that you have to commute on line either. If MHT isnít looking good, there are 15 flights from BOS to BWI on weekdays on a variety of carriers. Plus Amtrak if you get in a pinch.

The commuter policy only requires one flight attempt on line though. If you make it great. If not, so be it. Donít sweat it!


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BB818
12-12-2017, 09:37 AM
Wow great insight from someone who's been in my situation. I'm 44. What do you think about starting over at SWA at my age and the current industry hiring scenario?

Ihateusernames
12-12-2017, 09:41 AM
Will your current gig give you a 20 year contract with COLA raises? What stops them from reducing the $ later once they have you trapped? What kind of loss of License plans do they have?


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ZapBrannigan
12-12-2017, 09:53 AM
Wow great insight from someone who's been in my situation. I'm 44. What do you think about starting over at SWA at my age and the current industry hiring scenario?


I had committed to remaining at the corporate operator I was flying for when I turned down my recall. It wasnít until the situation changed at that operator that I started to think about leaving. I knew that you could make more money elsewhere, and that the airlines generally had a better retirement... but I was happy.

My advice to you, is to ask yourself if you are happy. If so, then forget about your class date and donít look back. But if you arenít happy and you want to finish out your career flying a narrowbody airplane to mostly domestic cities, you could do worse. Youíll probably upgrade by the time you reach 54 and have about ten years as a Captain making in the neighborhood of $300,000 and maxing out your retirement. Not as good as the prospects that you and I had in our twenties. But not half bad. Message me privately if you want to talk through specifics.


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HwkrPlt
12-12-2017, 10:04 AM
You work for LM? Take the SWA job. You're one new CEO away from getting GE'ed, and the CEO you have now sure made life more miserable for everyone.

Woodbourne23
12-12-2017, 10:20 AM
The general consensus Iíve tried to adhere to is wherever you are at age 40 ( if itís a good job at a major or at Captain) you should stay. You will never be a senior Captain at wn and commuting blows


Pay, retirement and money in general are very important, but nothing beats family time. Saw you have kid(s) and not sure of their ages now, but you donít get that back and they will never remember how much $ you did or did not make. Commuting will take months and or years away from whatís important. So, if youíre not willing to move, I would stay put

flyguy81
12-12-2017, 10:35 AM
FWIW....44 yo will put you around 40-60% seniority in your class. Lots of older guys starting over so itís not just you!

Proximity
12-12-2017, 11:05 AM
Plenty of good advice in this thread.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned is what happens if you get hurt or lose your medical? At SWA, even with kind of weak STD/LTD plans, you'll still likely be in a much better position then if you get sick at a corporate job.

I left a high paying corporate job and haven't looked back, even as wages for corporate flying have started to climb.

Stitches
12-12-2017, 05:27 PM
How long until I can make 200K as a commuter?
How realistic is it to pick up extra time as a commuter?
I think the upgrade time will come down in coming years. Thoughts?
Thoughts and opinions on my situation greatly appreciated.


I found that at the end of the month I could count on averaging 8-8.5tfp/day without flying any premium trips. You can use that and the payscale to determine possible salary depending on how hard you want to work.

It's incredibly easy to pick up extra work. Once you get off reserve you will have lots of flexibility.

Count on 10 years or so but I think 8 or less is definitely possible for upgrades going forward.

I think that you will probably make more money by staying where you're at but with a huge uncertainty risk (compared to Swa) that goes along with corporate flying. $300k is great compared to a new hire airline FO but low for a Swa captain. Will you have to threaten to leave 5years from now to get another raise? I know you don't want to move, if you lose your corporate job would you relocate then? How many days do you work now and how many are you willing to work?

FYI with retirement and profit sharing I'm estimating north of $230k as a 4'th yr FO. I live in base and averaged 13 working days a month this year with zero stress away from work. Good luck with your decision.

Ps I know lots of former corporate guys at Swa but I don't know anyone that left Swa for corporate.

Qotsaautopilot
12-12-2017, 07:51 PM
You are six months away from losing your medical and every six months for the next 20 years. I’d choose based on that criteria and how you may or may not be insured against that possibility.

On the other hand commuting sucks the life out of you. I commutes for seven years and was ready to leave the industry because of it. Now I live in base at Spirit and as bad as Spirit is nothing beats living in base. It’s an entirely different job. Now if we don’t see a quality contract I’m going to be putting the hard sell on my wife to move to another airline’s base because I refuse to commute ever again. It’s that bad!

PowerShift
12-12-2017, 10:27 PM
If you commute, forget optimizing your schedule or picking up the add hoc trip here and there. Unless you just donít care about being home. Commuting a five block reserve month costs me 12 hrs away from home on each end, if all goes well. Thatís 5 days a month peed away. Plus the 15-16 days you are working gives you 10-11 days a month off. I give away at least 1 RSV block a month, take the hit in pay to maximize my home time with young kids.

Will be moving to base next year. Iím younger then you, but had a great Corp gig. I would not have taken the job at SWA if commuting was long term. It sucks that bad.

I say stay put.

RJSAviator76
12-13-2017, 06:09 AM
If you commute, forget optimizing your schedule or picking up the add hoc trip here and there. Unless you just donít care about being home. Commuting a five block reserve month costs me 12 hrs away from home on each end, if all goes well. Thatís 5 days a month peed away. Plus the 15-16 days you are working gives you 10-11 days a month off. I give away at least 1 RSV block a month, take the hit in pay to maximize my home time with young kids.

Will be moving to base next year. Iím younger then you, but had a great Corp gig. I would not have taken the job at SWA if commuting was long term. It sucks that bad.

I say stay put.

One of the benefits of living in base is that you don't have uncompensated days away from home. Not so if you commute given our schedules not being that commuter-friendly. Essentially, if you're an AM'er, you'd fly in the evening before (your day off) and spend the night at a crashpad or hotel. You'd be able to fly home the same day at the end of your trip. Conversely, if you're a PM'er, you might be able to come in the day your trip starts, but there's a good likelihood you'll finish after the last flight has left necessitating a night in the crashpad or hotel room before heading home in the morning (again, your day off).

I'm one of those people who hates being away from home for work and not getting paid for it. Let's take a look at the math with the number of days being gone from home as a commuter vs. living in domicile and picking up work but being gone from home the same number of days as a commuter.

Our average daily guarantee is 6.5 TFP and that's also the minimum if you were to pick up a short premium turn.

So... using a 6.5 TFP figure 4 nights away from home per month spent commuting, I see that as potentially uncompensated 26 TFP in a month. Using Stitches' numbers, those numbers go to 32-34 TFP in a month in uncompensated days/nights away from home. To translate that into dollars:

1st year FO $1800-$2350/month of potentially uncompensated time using only first-year figures. Given that open time for first-year FO's is generally paid at second-year rates, that number goes up to $2600-$3400/month. See the trend?

For topped out captains, that translates to potentially $5850-$7650/month in uncompensated time.

Now mind you, those figures are just TFP figures and do not include retirement/profit share. Estimate another 25% on top of that for retirement and profit sharing numbers.

All I can say is... given our ability to pick up additional flying here and get paid for being away from home, commuting can be an expensive proposition at Southwest.

SlipKid
12-13-2017, 06:29 AM
One of the benefits of living in base is that you don't have uncompensated days away from home. Not so if you commute given our schedules not being that commuter-friendly. Essentially, if you're an AM'er, you'd fly in the evening before (your day off) and spend the night at a crashpad or hotel. You'd be able to fly home the same day at the end of your trip. Conversely, if you're a PM'er, you might be able to come in the day your trip starts, but there's a good likelihood you'll finish after the last flight has left necessitating a night in the crashpad or hotel room before heading home in the morning (again, your day off).

I'm one of those people who hates being away from home for work and not getting paid for it. Let's take a look at the math with the number of days being gone from home as a commuter vs. living in domicile and picking up work but being gone from home the same number of days as a commuter.

Our average daily guarantee is 6.5 TFP and that's also the minimum if you were to pick up a short premium turn.

So... using a 6.5 TFP figure 4 nights away from home per month spent commuting, I see that as potentially uncompensated 26 TFP in a month. Using Stitches' numbers, those numbers go to 32-34 TFP in a month in uncompensated days/nights away from home. To translate that into dollars:

1st year FO $1800-$2350/month of potentially uncompensated time using only first-year figures. Given that open time for first-year FO's is generally paid at second-year rates, that number goes up to $2600-$3400/month. See the trend?

For topped out captains, that translates to potentially $5850-$7650/month in uncompensated time.

Now mind you, those figures are just TFP figures and do not include retirement/profit share. Estimate another 25% on top of that for retirement and profit sharing numbers.

All I can say is... given our ability to pick up additional flying here and get paid for being away from home, commuting can be an expensive proposition at Southwest.

This is 100% correct.

The opportunity cost of commuting at SW is astounding.

My unwillingness to commute any more than I absolutely have to has cost me, conservatively, in the neighborhood of 3/4 of a million over the last 22 years, and I've been driving (2:45-5 hours) it for the last 16.

BobZ
12-13-2017, 06:40 AM
This is 100% correct.

The opportunity cost of commuting at SW is astounding.

My unwillingness to commute any more than I absolutely have to has cost me, conservatively, in the neighborhood of 3/4 of a million over the last 22 years, and I've been driving it for the last 16.

Tried explaining these numbers to a 30yr old new hire. My wag over a 30yr career its at least $1M. Not counting compounding.

Doesnt matter what carrier, its $, time away from family, and early medical issues from the stress.

PowerShift
12-13-2017, 08:01 AM
One of the benefits of living in base is that you don't have uncompensated days away from home. Not so if you commute given our schedules not being that commuter-friendly. Essentially, if you're an AM'er, you'd fly in the evening before (your day off) and spend the night at a crashpad or hotel. You'd be able to fly home the same day at the end of your trip. Conversely, if you're a PM'er, you might be able to come in the day your trip starts, but there's a good likelihood you'll finish after the last flight has left necessitating a night in the crashpad or hotel room before heading home in the morning (again, your day off).

I'm one of those people who hates being away from home for work and not getting paid for it. Let's take a look at the math with the number of days being gone from home as a commuter vs. living in domicile and picking up work but being gone from home the same number of days as a commuter.

Our average daily guarantee is 6.5 TFP and that's also the minimum if you were to pick up a short premium turn.

So... using a 6.5 TFP figure 4 nights away from home per month spent commuting, I see that as potentially uncompensated 26 TFP in a month. Using Stitches' numbers, those numbers go to 32-34 TFP in a month in uncompensated days/nights away from home. To translate that into dollars:

1st year FO $1800-$2350/month of potentially uncompensated time using only first-year figures. Given that open time for first-year FO's is generally paid at second-year rates, that number goes up to $2600-$3400/month. See the trend?

For topped out captains, that translates to potentially $5850-$7650/month in uncompensated time.

Now mind you, those figures are just TFP figures and do not include retirement/profit share. Estimate another 25% on top of that for retirement and profit sharing numbers.

All I can say is... given our ability to pick up additional flying here and get paid for being away from home, commuting can be an expensive proposition at Southwest.

Nail on Head! That was my calculations as well. And add the 100$ per day for the Hotel and food, etc that you save. Now your opportunity costs are $3000-3800 a month.

SlipKid
12-13-2017, 08:03 AM
Tried explaining these numbers to a 30yr old new hire. My wag over a 30yr career its at least $1M. Not counting compounding.

Doesnt matter what carrier, its $, time away from family, and early medical issues from the stress.

Yup... Even if you completely dismiss the financial aspect, there is very little upside to commuting.

e6bpilot
12-13-2017, 08:21 AM
I will present the flip side of the coin on commuting.
If you have a relatively easy commute (I commute okc to HOU with the option of a fairly easy commute to two other bases) then commuting really isnít that bad and it actually presents some opportunities if you are willing to take advantage of them.
Look at the frequency and times between MHT and BWI. I am guessing they are fairly good. This is the first key. The second key is looking at the lines in a base and the start and end times. If there are a fair number of earlyish ending PMs that get in prior to the last flight out then those are commutable trips. I fly almost exclusively commutable PMs in Houston. That may not be the case in BWI as I have seen some eye watering late arrivals there recently as we have stretched the schedule out. So worst case you may have to either catch a few winks in the lounge (BWIs lounge actually has a really nice crew rest set up) or crash in a hotel or pad for a few hours and catch the early one back home. You really arenít missing that much time at home. Those with difficult commutes (low frequency and or a lot of commuters) have a completely different set of circumstances. I would not wish a difficult commute on anyone I like.
Commuting allows you to live where you want, give your family stability, have extended family close by, and many times enjoy a low cost and high quality of life that you wonít get in a base. Those are huge benefits.
I commute, generally fly between 13-16 days a month, and average somewhere around 140tfp. This isnít without effort and I wasnít able to do it without a couple of years of seniority, but thatís where I am right now. Living in a city with nonstop flights on multiple carriers to 8/10 SWA bases is a big part of that success. It isnít all sunshine and roses, last month the open time market took a dump and I worked way harder than I am accustomed to and credited less. Thatís fine, my family budgets for the lean times, not the 160tfp months.
What it all boils down to is commuting isnít all bad. It just depends a lot on you and on your commute. I have a feeling that MHT to BWI is pretty good, but that is just a wag based on the frequency between those cities and the amount and diversity of flying I see out of BWI.

CA1900
12-13-2017, 09:05 AM
For what it's worth, I have an easy, one-leg commute that I can do on company aircraft, coming in the same day as a PM trip. Honestly, I've felt zero stress from it. Sometimes I have to ride in the cockpit, sometimes in the FA jumpseat, but normally I get a good seat with no stress.

The extra time away from home, though, is just unsustainable, not to mention the hotel expense and the lost opportunity for picking up easy trips. For those reasons, I'm moving to base within my first year. Our trips just aren't generally commuter-friendly, and I knew that I'd eventually be moving to a domicile when I accepted the job. It's doable, but far from ideal with our schedules.

flysocal77
12-13-2017, 09:50 AM
I live in SoCal and have one of the easiest commutes but itís starting to wear on me. Been commuting almost 4 years but love where I live, family is happy but Iím getting ready for a move. Top of the list: Henderson NV. Short drive to work and no state tax. My heart says stay my mind says move. Gonna hold out for maybe 2 more years and see if the LAX base happens if not Iím out!

Thatís coming from a guy with a super easy commute compared to most others. Mostly commutable PMs and opportunity for extra flying with DH to SoCal.

David Puddy
12-13-2017, 12:01 PM
Hello All,
I have a class date at SWA but my employer just offered me 300K to stay, plus a defined benefit program comparable to the majors. I am a 44 -year old G-650 captain with an excellent resume (Fortune 100, Former major airline, former military,). I could have 20+ years at SWA but I'm gonna have to start all over (not crazy about that).

How long until I can make 200K as a commuter?
How realistic is it to pick up extra time as a commuter?
I think the upgrade time will come down in coming years. Thoughts?
Thoughts and opinions on my situation greatly appreciated.

This is a tough decision. I guess it's a good problem to have.
Thank you!

Advice I've heard from a recruiter: never accept a counter offer. They know you are looking around. Just advice I have heard...

SWA will work you hard, but the job security is tremendous. No corporate job is a sure thing anymore. Good luck!!!

ZapBrannigan
12-13-2017, 12:23 PM
but the job security is tremendous.


Illusion.




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Stitches
12-13-2017, 02:16 PM
Advice I've heard from a recruiter: never accept a counter offer. They know you are looking around.

This is very sage advice.

Unless the $300k offer was on the table before your job offer at Swa AND it applies to everyone in your flight department with comparable skills/responsibilities I'd plan on using your current compensation for comparison purposes.

You will have a big target on your back if you're the highest paid and your company knows your leverage with Swa has an expiration date.

Beans
12-13-2017, 05:27 PM
Hello All,
I have a class date at SWA but my employer just offered me 300K to stay, plus a defined benefit program comparable to the majors. I am a 44 -year old G-650 captain with an excellent resume (Fortune 100, Former major airline, former military,). I could have 20+ years at SWA but I'm gonna have to start all over (not crazy about that).

How long until I can make 200K as a commuter?
How realistic is it to pick up extra time as a commuter?
I think the upgrade time will come down in coming years. Thoughts?
Thoughts and opinions on my situation greatly appreciated.

This is a tough decision. I guess it's a good problem to have.
Thank you!

Is the 300k in writing (In a legaly binding contract)? Is your defined benefits in writing (has it been vetted by an investment professional)? How about your schedule are those defined?

My guess is if you ask them to put pen to paper on a 10-20 year deal you will get your answer. After this set of questions is asked you will show up in class at SWA.

apu4eva
12-13-2017, 07:29 PM
Iím curious about this as well as I live in a West Texas town serviced by WN with multiple flights to DAL/HOU. Didnít seem like too bad a deal to me but as Iíve never done 121 flying, I guess we will see. Iím sure itís not near as good as living in domicile, but my wifeís family (whom I love)is out here so to me itís a small price to pay to work here. Maybe Iíll be singing a different tune after my class is over.

PowerShift
12-13-2017, 09:34 PM
Easiest commute = Online, 1 leg, 6-8 flights a day to domicile, 30-45 min flight.

Nightmare commute = Offline, 2-3 options the entire day, connecting through a hub, 2 legs at best, 3 legs sometimes. 1.5-2 hr legs. Add a bump in there and itís an entire day affair.

And there is everything in between. As mentioned, if you are not in base, it limits your options for earning potential, which is hard to quantify with all the factors.

rightside02
12-14-2017, 02:38 AM
Man 300k Is tough to give up and will take several years to make that up . But to truly say this gig will last another 20 years at 300,000 large each year is tough to imagine.

I have had some pals maikijg that type of money flying corporate that thought they were set for their career , in one guys case he was there for 18 years .

Company ended up going belly up and all of the guys I refer to above (every single one ) are all at the airlines now .

God luck with your choice

Tankerhead
12-14-2017, 04:28 AM
MHT is one of the better commutes at SWA. Plenty of frequency, early and late arrivals, and quite a few trips that are commutable on BOTH ends. Not all, of course, but more than most BWI commuter cities. Tons of flexibility at this airline. Good luck.

OrionTanker
12-14-2017, 04:47 AM
Two thoughts -

Respect the commute. If you choose to commute, get six hours of sleep at a minimum wherever you stop for the night. Heard that from a crusty senior el capitan.

If you decide to turn down SWA, you will not have another opportunity to work for SWA. The company remembers your decision. Even with the shortage of available pilots today. And no matter how many times you apply and interview afterwards. Be careful, this bridge will not be rebuilt.

Good luck.

TexasFlight
12-14-2017, 05:34 AM
Personally, I think it comes down to time. The money is important but at the end of the day time is all we have. The total compensation packages will be in the same ballpark within 5 years regardless of what you do, so the question I would ask is what job will give you the most time off.

Just based on a quick passrider.com search, MHT has ~7 flights a day to BWI and BOS has 16. Little bit farther but PVD has 7 flights. In the commuting world I would say this set-up is as close to the oxymoron of "Good Commute" that you will find. SWA it is! :)

SlipKid
12-14-2017, 09:16 AM
Just based on a quick passrider.com search, MHT has ~7 flights a day to BWI and BOS has 16. Little bit farther but PVD has 7 flights. In the commuting world I would say this set-up is as close to the oxymoron of "Good Commute" that you will find. SWA it is! :)

It's definitely as close to a "good" commute as you can get, which is why it also a very popular one. I rarely don't have commuting pilots in the jumpseat between MHT and BWI, which is something else to consider.

Our flights are almost always full or close to it, which means in places with lots of commuters, lots of competition for the 2 or 3 jumpseats on the airplane.

TexasFlight
12-14-2017, 09:17 AM
It's definitely as close to a "good" commute as you can get, which is why it also a very popular one. I rarely don't have commuting pilots in the jumpseat between MHT and BWI, which is something else to consider.

Our flights are almost always full or close to it, which means in places with lots of commuters, lots of competition for the 2 or 3 jumpseats on the airplane.

Excellent point.

BB818
12-15-2017, 12:52 AM
Great points. What is the jumpseat policy in terms of reserving it? Is it first come, first served at the gate or is it seniority based? Whatís the policy for commuting in terms of what happens if you canít get on the flight or if it cancels etc?

Sluggo_63
12-15-2017, 02:59 AM
Two thoughts -

Respect the commute. If you choose to commute, get six hours of sleep at a minimum wherever you stop for the night. Heard that from a crusty senior el capitan.

If you decide to turn down SWA, you will not have another opportunity to work for SWA. The company remembers your decision. Even with the shortage of available pilots today. And no matter how many times you apply and interview afterwards. Be careful, this bridge will not be rebuilt.

Good luck.Why would they interview him afterwards if they were just going to reject him. Seems like a waste of resources.

Laramie
12-15-2017, 03:38 AM
Great points. What is the jumpseat policy in terms of reserving it? Is it first come, first served at the gate or is it seniority based? Whatís the policy for commuting in terms of what happens if you canít get on the flight or if it cancels etc?


I'm not a regular on this forum and I've seen these questions answered more than once. Dig a little.

GWY320
12-15-2017, 04:28 AM
Post 37 by shoelu appears to have the commuter policy at Southwest.


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e6bpilot
12-15-2017, 05:58 AM
Jumpseat is FCFS starting an hour prior at the gate podium. Company pilots have priority over everyone else except must rides. The vast majority of planes have 2 cockpit jumpseats.

Stitches
12-15-2017, 06:05 AM
If you miss your commute scheduling will "work with you" to get you back on your trip. You have no obligation to fly a broken up pairing though. Most times you are better off dropping the whole trip and picking up another one for full pay that reports later.

e6bpilot
12-15-2017, 07:18 AM
If you miss your commute scheduling will "work with you" to get you back on your trip. You have no obligation to fly a broken up pairing though. Most times you are better off dropping the whole trip and picking up another one for full pay that reports later.



Is that written anywhere? I know itís true with FAs but I thought we were at the mercy of scheduling.
My advice - as long as you donít make it a habit, call in sick. You get paid and sit at home. What a country.

ZapBrannigan
12-15-2017, 07:42 AM
Is that written anywhere? I know itís true with FAs but I thought we were at the mercy of scheduling.
My advice - as long as you donít make it a habit, call in sick. You get paid and sit at home. What a country.


Just as long as you donít do it on Thanksgiving, Christmas, the 4th of July, or the pairing immediately before or after your vacation. Otherwise you will be subject to internet shaming and a possible call from the CP. [emoji23]


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full of luv
12-15-2017, 02:02 PM
Your 40 years old? SWA has NEVER furloughed a Pilot! No decision here go to Southwest and never look back. The money will come

No airline ever furloughed until they did. Specious argument.

Delta operated for 60+ years before they furloughed.

I hope no one ever furloughs again, but never is a long time.

Before your panties get all wadded up, I donít think SWA is going to furlough but some day your Mgmt may go to a team that isnít that adept and things can change fast.

Best of luck to all of us to make it till robots take over.

galaxy flyer
12-17-2017, 07:27 PM
you will be subject to internet shaming and a possible call from the CP.

Of the two, the internet shaming might be worse. :p

GF

BB818
12-21-2017, 06:14 PM
Made the decision: Going to SWA. Thank you ALL for your input. I really appreciate it! Merry Christmas!

Turbo and Ozone
12-21-2017, 10:28 PM
Would it be a easy or a hard commute? If youíre not happy with the current gig....is that kind of $$$ going to make you happy? Or will you still be miserable but with [emoji383]? Iíd rather have less cash and be happy personally. You canít take it with you and lifeís too short to be miserable.



Ainít this the truth... and itís why Iím making a career at Allegiant. Itís all about the QOL man! I am trading some money for the extra time at home chillin, playing with kids and watching my bitcoin grow. Since I value time at home, I would probably choose whichever company gave me more of that. But you will have to decide what you value more. $$ can make a lot of things easier too, so just weigh it out. The answer will come.


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Citrus Fruit
12-22-2017, 05:30 AM
Made the decision: Going to SWA. Thank you ALL for your input. I really appreciate it! Merry Christmas!

Welcome aboard. Itís a good place with good folks. Except for that guy in the ___ domicile. 😜

Packrat
12-22-2017, 09:15 AM
Itís all about the QOL man!... Since I value time at home, I would probably choose whichever company gave me more of that. But you will have to decide what you value more.


Very refreshing to see someone who knows there's more to life than money. Airline pilots wouldn't have the reputation of having multiple divorces.

"I don't care too much for money. Money can't buy you love," --The Beatles

FXDX
12-24-2017, 12:51 PM
Made the decision: Going to SWA. Thank you ALL for your input. I really appreciate it! Merry Christmas!

Congrats BB, its got to feel good to have made the decision. Stick with it and don't ever look back.

SlipKid
12-25-2017, 07:45 AM
Very refreshing to see someone who knows there's more to life than money. Airline pilots wouldn't have the reputation of having multiple divorces.

"I don't care too much for money. Money can't buy you love," --The Beatles

The beauty of SW is that you can have both, especially once you get a little seniority and put some effort into manipulating your schedule......... :eek:


This month, I broke my long standing rule of never working over vacation, well kinda.

After being home a month of my 2 months off, I picked up a 3 day premium trip in the 4 days in between my vacation overlap, breaking my all time TFP record FWIW. It doesn't happen often, but it's nice when it works out.

busdriver12
12-25-2017, 08:23 AM
From reading these posts, it sounds as if you would have a much better QOL at Southwest. Your job appears very stressful, and not that enjoyable. The money looks great for now, but who knows if that will last. It's so much more than money that's important, especially since you don't know for sure how it will shake out in the end. You are really young, you have decades left in this career. You keep talking like you're an old guy, with not much time left to fly! It is much less stressful to be someone with a seniority number, with schedule flexibility and choices.

Commuting is tough at most airlines (except for FedEx). But it sounds reasonable at SW, they seem to make it as palatable as possible. The reality is, if it was too onerous, you always have the choice to move to base. I know, the wife, the kids are planted...but it really is not the end of the world to move. If you can be home much more often, make a higher salary, just consider it is an option, don't write it off.

shoelu
12-25-2017, 11:29 AM
Made the decision: Going to SWA. Thank you ALL for your input. I really appreciate it! Merry Christmas!
Congratulations, I hope it ends up being one of the best decisions you have ever made.

Jeff Lebowski
12-26-2017, 06:41 AM
It's been interesting reading this thread. I'm a former longtime corporate guy myself, on line at SWA now for all of two months. My training partner was corporate, as well, and I think he summed it up best:

No matter how good corporate may seem, now matter how shiny the equipment and how nice the crew meals and hotels and rental cars and all the other accouterments that come from being a kept man may seem, it all comes down to one thing: you're always gonna be someone's beyotch.

It ain't all wine and roses here, especially this first year, but I can see what the future holds, and I like it. I also like looking back and seeing a hundred-and-fifty or so folks who inhabit, more or less, the same tax bracket as I do. It's better for the soul.

Best of luck, BB818. Good to have you aboard.

ZapBrannigan
12-26-2017, 06:59 AM
Iíve been out of Part 91 corporate for 4.5 years now. There are a lot of things that I miss. Clean FBO bathrooms, courtesy cars, no crowded terminals. Sometimes choosing my own hotels.

At the end of the day though, I like the airline job better. A few ways Iíve explained it to my coworkers who have never flown corporate...

ďImagine being on reserve for your entire career with no work rules.Ē

ďAirline flying is 99% flying and 1% bull poop. Corporate flying is 99% bull poop and 1% flyingĒ

ďWhen I flew corporate I always felt as though I was wasting the days of my life. I would fly one leg to a hotel in Toluca, sit there for a week, and fly one leg home. While I was there, I was just passing time. Not productive to my company (just babysitting the airplane). Not productive to my family.Ē

The cherry on top though is the flexibility to manipulate my schedule month by month. After 4 years at this airline I have weekends and holidays off. I donít miss a single one of my childís school events or games. I can fly more if I want to make more. Or just fly my line.

Is it perfect? No. I complain a ton. Itís a hobby. But I am also willing to compare and contrast this company truthfully against the corporation and the other airlines Iíve worked for. It measures up well.

Youíre making the right decision.

It's been interesting reading this thread. I'm a former longtime corporate guy myself, on line at SWA now for all of two months. My training partner was corporate, as well, and I think he summed it up best:



No matter how good corporate may seem, now matter how shiny the equipment and how nice the crew meals and hotels and rental cars and all the other accouterments that come from being a kept man may seem, it all comes down to one thing: you're always gonna be someone's beyotch.



It ain't all wine and roses here, especially this first year, but I can see what the future holds, and I like it. I also like looking back and seeing a hundred-and-fifty or so folks who inhabit, more or less, the same tax bracket as I do. It's better for the soul.



Best of luck, BB818. Good to have you aboard.






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HTBH
12-26-2017, 07:20 AM
It's been really interesting to follow this post. When I got out of the military I had a couple of offers from some very high end flight departments. Money was at the level you are talking about, equipment was fantastic, etc..etc.. But, as one person said in this forum, I was always going to be someone else's beyotch...". So I went with the airlines.

It'll suck for a year or so for you compared to your old gig and there'll be a financial hit early. No way around that. But long term, they just aren't comparable. Although, like you, I'd have made more money out the gate with the corporate job; the QOL and flexibility of schedule I've had as an airline pilot is just beyond compare.

In the end, it was the best decision I could have made and I'm glad I'm flying in the airline world vs the corporate world. I hope you end up feeling the same way. Happy holidays and good luck!

BB818
12-27-2017, 07:48 PM
Thank you all for your input. This thread has helped me tremendously.

cskafan123
12-28-2017, 08:07 AM
Out of curiosity are WN pilots allowed to do flying on a side( contract flying, flight instructing) ?

Salukidawg
12-28-2017, 08:22 AM
Out of curiosity are WN pilots allowed to do flying on a side( contract flying, flight instructing) ?

I think you can but you have to get SWAís approval to do so and said flying canít make you illegal for your primary line flying at SWA. Honestly, unless your side gig pays an insane amount of money, youíre better off just picking up extra flying on your days off. The only pilots that I know that have flying gigs on the side are ANG, and thatís completely different from a side civilian flying job.

cskafan123
12-28-2017, 08:31 AM
It can be between 1000-2500$ a day. Would be a pretty good financial help during the first year.

SlipKid
12-28-2017, 08:46 AM
I think you can but you have to get SWAís approval to do so and said flying canít make you illegal for your primary line flying at SWA. Honestly, unless your side gig pays an insane amount of money, youíre better off just picking up extra flying on your days off. The only pilots that I know that have flying gigs on the side are ANG, and thatís completely different from a side civilian flying job.

I'll ditto this.

Over the years, I've been approached to do outside work a few times, and when I crunched the numbers, I've always been far better off, both pay and QOL wise, to just pick up an extra trip at SW.

cskafan123
12-28-2017, 09:21 AM
I'll ditto this.

Over the years, I've been approached to do outside work a few times, and when I crunched the numbers, I've always been far better off, both pay and QOL wise, to just pick up an extra trip at SW.

During the first year can you make up to 1000 bucks a day when you pick up open time? if so that's awesome!

RJSAviator76
12-28-2017, 09:25 AM
During the first year can you make up to 1000 bucks a day when you pick up open time? if so that's awesome!

It's possible, but you're far more likely to average around $700-800/day. I'd go with those numbers.

cskafan123
12-28-2017, 09:44 AM
It's possible, but you're far more likely to average around $700-800/day. I'd go with those numbers.

That's great! Do you guys get premium pay after certain flight hours ?

SlipKid
12-28-2017, 04:33 PM
During the first year can you make up to 1000 bucks a day when you pick up open time? if so that's awesome!

Not during my first year....... :rolleyes: Heck, the Capts weren't making that back then.

The outside gigs I was offered over the years didn't pay $1k a day either.

Nowadays I wouldn't even consider working a day off, or a day on, for that matter, for $1k per day. :D

Proximity
12-28-2017, 05:39 PM
It's possible, but you're far more likely to average around $700-800/day. I'd go with those numbers.

If you want to do an a fair comparison to contract work, consider total compensation.

Let's say you pickup a reserve day and don't get used, that pays $600 2nd year. But you also get .6 in your sick bank, worth $60, SWA pays half the FICA tax for you, that's 7.65% ($46), they'll pay into your b-fund ($85), and give you profit share (estimating 12%, or $72). That's $863 for very little effort. Pickup a turn that pays 8-9 trips, which I see all the time in TTGA, and you'd need to make $1200-1300 at a contract gig to breakeven with an extra day at SWA. This is why I very quickly gave up the idea of doing any outside contracting, although I understand large cabin business jet pay has increased.

SlipKid
12-29-2017, 07:08 AM
If you want to do an a fair comparison to contract work, consider total compensation.

Let's say you pickup a reserve day and don't get used, that pays $600 2nd year. But you also get .6 in your sick bank, worth $60, SWA pays half the FICA tax for you, that's 7.65% ($46), they'll pay into your b-fund ($85), and give you profit share (estimating 12%, or $72). That's $863 for very little effort. Pickup a turn that pays 8-9 trips, which I see all the time in TTGA, and you'd need to make $1200-1300 at a contract gig to breakeven with an extra day at SWA. This is why I very quickly gave up the idea of doing any outside contracting, although I understand large cabin business jet pay has increased.

Yup......

There's a lot of reasons why folks don't do much outside contract work.

Jeff Lebowski
12-29-2017, 07:35 AM
I've been so immersed in the SWA way of doing things of late I don't know if I'd trust myself to swing the gear on my old corporate ride.

Plus, we had actual real working VNAV on that thing. It's just be too confusing ...



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