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AV888RRR
12-14-2017, 06:34 PM
I was trying to fly on a SkyWest flight that had several open seats, but the Captain denied boarding because they were about to close and didn't want to wait for my bag to be gate checked. They left the gate 20 mins after all this happened. This isn't the first time I've had this happen although the first time I was denied the actual cockpit jumpseat. Yes, the CA has absolute discretion as to who gets to occupy the jumpseat, but this lack of respect for a fellow pilot trying to get home is unacceptable.

I've always made sure we've got everyone onboard that we could possibly take on my flights even if it means occupying all available jumpseats for eligible non-revs. Even when I was weight restricted, I've always coordinated with Dispatch to get different fuel numbers to accommodate the jumpseater saying I'm not pushing without him/her onboard. Come on guys, it's really not that hard. I've never left a jumpseater behind, cockpit or cabin jumpseat. Taking a jumpseater to me, and to a lot of pilots, is more important than departing on time or tankering fuel. You can still arrive on time/early. It takes less than 5 mins to accommodate.

Don't leave anyone behind.


hawk21
12-14-2017, 06:52 PM
Sounds like an isolated incident. Every captain I have flown with has gone above and beyond to get commuters on board. Don't blame the airline. Blame the few individuals that act this way.

SMACFUM
12-14-2017, 07:49 PM
I call BS on this post. Only 1 post history. But I'll bite and engage in some discussion.

I HIGHLY doubt the reason you were denied was solely because the CA didn't want to wait for your bag. That simply doesn't pass the sniff test, there has to be more to the story.

Even when I was weight restricted, I've always coordinated with Dispatch to get different fuel numbers to accommodate the jumpseater saying I'm not pushing without him/her onboard.

Yeah, generally speaking in this industry giving co-works ultimatums such as "I'm not pushing with/without xxx" won't get you very far with anybody, and will often yield results opposite to those that you desire.

Sometimes the numbers just don't work, especially on the -200. I will do everything within my power to get any and all JS on board. However, I will not compromise safety margins by burning down to MINTO before launching into questionable WX or other marginal conditions just to accommodate YOU. I'll do my best, but again I will only go so far. Sorry, no Sorry

Come on guys, it's really not that hard. I've never left a jumpseater behind, cockpit or cabin jumpseat. Taking a jumpseater to me, and to a lot of pilots, is more important than departing on time or tankering fuel. You can still arrive on time/early.It takes less than 5 mins to accommodate.

No, it doesn't always take less than 5 min. Again, especially on a nose heavy -200. It's easy to get into a feed-back loop of overweight vs too forward CG that can't be resolved without fudging (falsifying) the numbers.


StlLifer
12-14-2017, 08:06 PM
I don't believe the post for a second. If there were 20 open seats there would be room in the overhead or onboard somewhere. Chances are the captain would grab the bag and run it down to the cargo compartment himself.

I could definitely believe that the gate agent might stop the boarding because she was too lazy or worried about the flight being delayed.

Check Complete
12-14-2017, 09:39 PM
I was trying to fly on a SkyWest flight that had several open seats, but the Captain denied boarding because they were about to close and didn't want to wait for my bag to be gate checked. They left the gate 20 mins after all this happened.This isn't the first time I've had this happen although the first time I was denied the actual cockpit jumpseat. TYes, the CA has absolute discretion as to who gets to occupy the jumpseat, but this lack of respect for a fellow pilot trying to get home is unacceptable.

I've always made sure we've got everyone onboard that we could possibly take on my flights even if it means occupying all available jumpseats for eligible non-revs. Even when I was weight restricted, I've always coordinated with Dispatch to get different fuel numbers to accommodate the jumpseater saying I'm not pushing without him/her onboard. Come on guys, it's really not that hard. I've never left a jumpseater behind, cockpit or cabin jumpseat. Taking a jumpseater to me, and to a lot of pilots, is more important than departing on time or tankering fuel. You can still arrive on time/early. It takes less than 5 mins to accommodate.

Don't leave anyone behind.


I'm guessing this is all you..........

rickair7777
12-15-2017, 03:50 AM
Likely more to the story. You can gate check a bag after you shut the door and drop the brake, late bags arrive all the time.

But ask your JS coordinator to call the OO JS coordinator, who will find out what happened. Maybe you'll get an explanation, or on the chance it's needed the CA will get calibrated by the coordinator. Presumably you're not on one of the "no-fly lists"?

blackhawk88
12-15-2017, 06:01 AM
Sounds like an isolated incident.

I rely solely on SkyWest to get me to/from work, and I agree that most CAs were very accommodating. However, I've also been denied jumpseat by a couple of your Captains.

In one case, I was sent down the jetway and the CA told me no because they were going to be over by a few hundred lbs over MTOW with me and the ballast. However, the crew was still going to be well over MinTO. I also fly CRJs, so based on my limited knowledge of the situation that day, the extra fuel could be burned off if you taxi out with both engines and APU running. However, I'm only saying it, again, based on my very limited knowledge for that particular situation. I ended up two legging it back home and ended up getting home 6+ hours later.

Another instance was in MSP, and this situation resembles somewhat closely to the original post. I arrived at the gate as they were about to close, 10 mins before departure. The gate agent said the CA has specifically told him to not let jumpseaters on. I asked if there were open seats, and he said there were still two open seats. I asked if he could go down and ask the CA again because I'm afraid he misunderstood the CA's instruction has not letting actual FDJs on because it's a CRJ 200 flight for a 2+ hr trip with an alternate. He came back saying the same thing, Captain said no jumpseaters.

Anyway, that's based on my limited experience flying on you guys for the past few months. I agree most of your CAs have been accommodating and I'll definitely return the favor to all your flight crew for all the rides you've given me.

gojo
12-15-2017, 06:23 AM
I rely solely on SkyWest to get me to/from work, and I agree that most CAs were very accommodating. However, I've also been denied jumpseat by a couple of your Captains.

In one case, I was sent down the jetway and the CA told me no because they were going to be over by a few hundred lbs over MTOW with me and the ballast. However, the crew was still going to be well over MinTO. I also fly CRJs, so based on my limited knowledge of the situation that day, the extra fuel could be burned off if you taxi out with both engines and APU running. However, I'm only saying it, again, based on my very limited knowledge for that particular situation. I ended up two legging it back home and ended up getting home 6+ hours later.

Another instance was in MSP, and this situation resembles somewhat closely to the original post. I arrived at the gate as they were about to close, 10 mins before departure. The gate agent said the CA has specifically told him to not let jumpseaters on. I asked if there were open seats, and he said there were still two open seats. I asked if he could go down and ask the CA again because I'm afraid he misunderstood the CA's instruction has not letting actual FDJs on because it's a CRJ 200 flight for a 2+ hr trip with an alternate. He came back saying the same thing, Captain said no jumpseaters.

Anyway, that's based on my limited experience flying on you guys for the past few months. I agree most of your CAs have been accommodating and I'll definitely return the favor to all your flight crew for all the rides you've given me.

I think these rare occasions occur on all airlines. But I too was denied in MSP. The flight was delayed waiting for a reserve FO to come from home. A new time was posted to accommodate the reserve call out and report time. I arrived back at the gate about a half hour before the new delayed departure time and was surprised to find out they were already done boarding. The gate agent said the FO got there early. Anyway, the Captain refused to reopen the door even though there were several open seats. The flight was already late so that was not the issue. And the door had only been closed for a couple of minutes. It sucks. But like I said, these situations are rare. Iím a 13 year commuter, and I only get burned once or twice a year

Shadre Reevis
12-15-2017, 06:37 AM
The last jump-seat denial rant I saw, the guy was talking all sorts of trash about the unaccommodating captain and how much BS he had to deal with and this-and-that. What the ranter forgot to mention upfront was how he showed at the last minute to ride up front in his JEANS, and the captain refused to wait for him to go change clothes and gate-check his bag.

Funny how those tiny details are omitted until you dig a little deeper. Fuels my skepticism.

Cefiro
12-15-2017, 09:18 AM
As a commuter, I hate reading threads like this. Hopefully there were extenuating circumstances. I'll do whatever I can to help a fellow commuter out and like to think the majority of our Captains will do the same.

rickair7777
12-15-2017, 11:24 AM
Gate agent said the CA said no jump seaters???

You believed that?

Turbosina
12-18-2017, 01:26 PM
I, and every captain I know, will do absolutely everything possible to get a jumpseater on board, even on a full -200 with alternate fuel and a short hop. We once opened the door and took a 15 minute delay so that we could move bags out of the overhead and into the aft cargo, which can be the only way to get the CG aft enough to allow a jumpseater up front. Taxiing out dual-engine with the APU running, requesting a delay before takeoff to burn down to MTOW... We've really done it all. That said, there are sometimes fuel and weight situations that make it literally impossible to legally take a J/S, no matter how much you fudge the takeoff fuel in the FMS.

I'm sure there are captains out there who won't bend over backwards to get everyone on board, but in 40 months here I haven't met one...

WesternSkies
12-18-2017, 06:19 PM
Eh, I work here and one of our guys left me due to weight. I wouldn't dare tell him how to make it work, I bit my lip and exited the cockpit.
I was recently left by Endeavor due to the gate agent being unable to figure out how to list me.
Though tip of the hat to the Envoy captain that once told the gate agent, "we go when you figure out your computer".

I've done a lot of ridiculous stuff to legally get the J/S on, but there have also been times where it just wasn't happening and they were left. Curse of the Deuce.

The OP should have the two J/S committees talk. There is no harm in talking if everything is on the Up'n'up. If we have a problem CA, that CA should be a "known".

trip
12-18-2017, 06:45 PM
Some of them deuces need 6-700 lbs to make it work, even with everyone in back. Not sure what's up with them!

velosnow
12-18-2017, 06:54 PM
Yeah, odd first post man.

Nonetheless, as former SkyW guy I worked my butt off to accommodate JS'ers and only had to leave maybe 2-3 behind in over a decade that I just couldn't get the numbers to work for. The Deuce is certainly a challenge at times to make it work, it was easier pre-ACARS too.

rickair7777
12-18-2017, 06:58 PM
Yeah, odd first post man.

Nonetheless, as former SkyW guy I worked my butt off to accommodate JS'ers and only had to leave maybe 2-3 behind in over a decade that I just couldn't get the numbers to work for. The Deuce is certainly a challenge at times to make it work, it was easier pre-ACARS too.

You had the discretion of the width of a #2 pencil lead.

velosnow
12-18-2017, 08:23 PM
You had the discretion of the width of a #2 pencil lead.

Which was better than 0.1% CG via ACARS ;)

KSCessnaDriver
12-19-2017, 05:49 AM
Some of them deuces need 6-700 lbs to make it work, even with everyone in back. Not sure what's up with them!

I was going to ask that. I see this all the time when I commute on your CR2's. I've never in my life had to put that amount of ballast on a 200 to get a J/S on. What makes the OO 200's so much more nose heavy than other airlines?

rickair7777
12-19-2017, 05:57 AM
I was going to ask that. I see this all the time when I commute on your CR2's. I've never in my life had to put that amount of ballast on a 200 to get a J/S on. What makes the OO 200's so much more nose heavy than other airlines

Galley config? A little extra weight up front goes a long way.

Did they put all the hyd 3 accumulators back?

KSCessnaDriver
12-19-2017, 07:14 AM
Galley config? A little extra weight up front goes a long way.

Did they put all the hyd 3 accumulators back?

Hyd 3 was my guess, I know my airline doesn't have them. Plus we have a different galley, that is a bit further back, generally.

450knotOffice
12-19-2017, 10:07 AM
Every airline has the occasional gate agent or captain who doesn't give a rip about a jumpseater and therefore won't make any concessions for them. To somehow imply that THIS guy must've been the problem, rather than the captain, agent, or weight and balance situation is laughable. But, hey. I get it, Skywest doesn't have ANY captains who would deny a jumpseater, so it MUST'VE been his fault, so let's attack his credibility instead.

Most (not all) captains I've encountered will bend over backwards to get a JS and non revs on.

As for this being his first post, so what? Some people DO lurk here for a long time until they one day decide to log in.

gojo
12-19-2017, 10:57 AM
Every airline has the occasional gate agent or captain who doesn't give a rip about a jumpseater and therefore won't make any concessions for them. To somehow imply that THIS guy must've been the problem, rather than the captain, agent, or weight and balance situation is laughable. But, hey. I get it, Skywest doesn't have ANY captains who would deny a jumpseater, so it MUST'VE been his fault, so let's attack his credibility instead.

Most (not all) captains I've encountered will bend over backwards to get a JS and non revs on.

As for this being his first post, so what? Some people DO lurk here for a long time until they one day decide to log in.

Are you not familiar with this flavor of kook-aid yet?

Fr8Thrust
12-21-2017, 01:14 PM
If you canít make it work, you either donít commute, are inexperienced, or just donít care. Just remember that youíre jeopardizing your reciprocal agreements every time you have a denial. This isnít the first time Iíve heard OO -200 flights denying JS. I donít know about you but Iím always surprised to see how many children travel these days... Itís all of our jobs to help educate those who donít get it.

amcnd
12-21-2017, 02:15 PM
The good new is. If it ever is a verified true denial the Captain gets disciplined l, with sapa present.... OO and sapa take real denials seriously..

WesternSkies
12-21-2017, 02:24 PM
If you canít make it work, you either donít commute, are inexperienced, or just donít care.

I'd be all ears to hear about your experience of having to leave ticketed passengers but still getting a jumpseater on.

rickair7777
12-21-2017, 05:09 PM
If you canít make it work, you either donít commute, are inexperienced, or just donít care. Just remember that youíre jeopardizing your reciprocal agreements every time you have a denial. This isnít the first time Iíve heard OO -200 flights denying JS. I donít know about you but Iím always surprised to see how many children travel these days... Itís all of our jobs to help educate those who donít get it.

No you cannot always make it work with a fully loaded Deuce. Usually, but not always.

Alternate fuel or anti-ice are the usual culprits.

Utah
12-21-2017, 07:31 PM
If you canít make it work, you either donít commute, are inexperienced, or just donít care. Just remember that youíre jeopardizing your reciprocal agreements every time you have a denial. This isnít the first time Iíve heard OO -200 flights denying JS. I donít know about you but Iím always surprised to see how many children travel these days... Itís all of our jobs to help educate those who donít get it.

You don't know what the hell you are talking about. I've had several flights where we can't even take all of the revenue passengers.

Check Complete
12-21-2017, 08:17 PM
The good new is. If it ever is a verified true denial the Captain gets disciplined l, with sapa present.... OO and sapa take real denials seriously..

So you are management, pathetic!

amcnd
12-21-2017, 08:33 PM
So you are management, pathetic!

Nope. But this thread is pathetic.. if it truly happened go through proper channels.. or at least post the flight number and day!!!

Check Complete
12-21-2017, 10:56 PM
The good new is. If it ever is a verified true denial the Captain gets disciplined l, with sapa present.... OO and sapa take real denials seriously..

You are either a CP or just management, because only a SAPA rep would accompany a regular pilot for a review. Regardless, your posting on this is a display of ďbad assĒ that you are totally out of touch with. The 200 is so frequently unable to have a JS, especially this time of year, that it is very plausible..

You are just like the rest of management that never flies and has no idea of the rank and file efforts! When did the VP of OPS fly last?

amcnd
12-22-2017, 04:06 AM
You are either a CP or just management, because only a SAPA rep would accompany a regular pilot for a review. Regardless, your posting on this is a display of ďbad assĒ that you are totally out of touch with. The 200 is so frequently unable to have a JS, especially this time of year, that it is very plausible..

You are just like the rest of management that never flies and has no idea of the rank and file efforts! When did the VP of OPS fly last?

Im not management. Im just tired of people posting something thatís serious business, yet offer no details, and its there first post, and thats it. No other posts now... If it truly happened then make something happen!!!

rickair7777
12-22-2017, 05:56 AM
You don't know what the hell you are talking about. I've had several flights where we can't even take all of the revenue passengers.

The first year they tried RCC, I took three out of 50 once. We had to remove 47 pax. Part of the problem was the airport ops didn't know how to report RWY conditions so as to align with the new rules.

velosnow
12-22-2017, 08:07 AM
The first year they tried RCC, I took three out of 50 once. We had to remove 47 pax. Part of the problem was the airport ops didn't know how to report RWY conditions so as to align with the new rules.

Remember leaving nearly 20 pax behind night to somewhere in Canada as the closest legal alternate was something like Fargo.

Fr8Thrust
12-22-2017, 04:44 PM
I'd be all ears to hear about your experience of having to leave ticketed passengers but still getting a jumpseater on.

Thatís not even the situation at hand.

Fr8Thrust
12-22-2017, 04:46 PM
I think you all missed the sublet hint in my last message. Half-weights.

Go ahead and ask EDV or AWAC who fly the same plane in the same market how theyíre able to take JSs no problem.

Fr8Thrust
12-22-2017, 05:05 PM
No you cannot always make it work with a fully loaded Deuce. Usually, but not always.

Alternate fuel or anti-ice are the usual culprits.

So you routinely do an AI On Max Thrust takeoff at Min Fuel w ALTN with 53 SOB plus cargo? If you can fit all the people you can fit 190 more lbs.

Fr8Thrust
12-22-2017, 05:31 PM
I call BS on this post. Only 1 post history. But I'll bite and engage in some discussion.

I HIGHLY doubt the reason you were denied was solely because the CA didn't want to wait for your bag. That simply doesn't pass the sniff test, there has to be more to the story.

Yeah, generally speaking in this industry giving co-works ultimatums such as "I'm not pushing with/without xxx" won't get you very far with anybody, and will often yield results opposite to those that you desire.

Sometimes the numbers just don't work, especially on the -200. I will do everything within my power to get any and all JS on board. However, I will not compromise safety margins by burning down to MINTO before launching into questionable WX or other marginal conditions just to accommodate YOU. I'll do my best, but again I will only go so far. Sorry, no Sorry

No, it doesn't always take less than 5 min. Again, especially on a nose heavy -200. It's easy to get into a feed-back loop of overweight vs too forward CG that can't be resolved without fudging (falsifying) the numbers.

It usually takes an experience like this for someone to come out of hiding and create an account.

Thereís a Min Fuel for a reason, which includes a safety margin, otherwise known as Reserve.

It does take less than 5 mins to accept a rider and shut the door. But it sounds like youíre not willing to play ball when it comes to your W&B. So be it, you call it falsifying, I call it selfish.

rickair7777
12-22-2017, 05:51 PM
So you routinely do an AI On Max Thrust takeoff at Min Fuel w ALTN with 53 SOB plus cargo? If you can fit all the people you can fit 190 more lbs.


You're clueless. Glad I'm out of there.

And no I'm not fudging fuel to the tune of 800lbs.

Fr8Thrust
12-23-2017, 12:03 AM
You're clueless. Glad I'm out of there.

And no I'm not fudging fuel to the tune of 800lbs.

A jumpseater is that far forward that you need to loose 800# of Fuel?

sailingfun
12-23-2017, 12:30 AM
I was trying to fly on a SkyWest flight that had several open seats, but the Captain denied boarding because they were about to close and didn't want to wait for my bag to be gate checked. They left the gate 20 mins after all this happened. This isn't the first time I've had this happen although the first time I was denied the actual cockpit jumpseat. Yes, the CA has absolute discretion as to who gets to occupy the jumpseat, but this lack of respect for a fellow pilot trying to get home is unacceptable.

I've always made sure we've got everyone onboard that we could possibly take on my flights even if it means occupying all available jumpseats for eligible non-revs. Even when I was weight restricted, I've always coordinated with Dispatch to get different fuel numbers to accommodate the jumpseater saying I'm not pushing without him/her onboard. Come on guys, it's really not that hard. I've never left a jumpseater behind, cockpit or cabin jumpseat. Taking a jumpseater to me, and to a lot of pilots, is more important than departing on time or tankering fuel. You can still arrive on time/early. It takes less than 5 mins to accommodate.

Don't leave anyone behind.

How about add the pertinent details. What time was push, what time did you arrive at the gate and how many bags did you have. The final detail is most important. Did you talk to the CA? Sounds like the gate agent did not want to deal with it. Keep in mind if this was a flight operated for Delta there is tremendous pressure to push ontime. Every delay has to have a written explanation to Delta for the reason.

rickair7777
12-23-2017, 05:45 AM
A jumpseater is that far forward that you need to loose 800# of Fuel?

The JSer is a CG problem, common to need 500-800 lbs ballast in the rear bin to balance out the CG. When you're full boat that ballast has to come out of either pax or fuel. I'm not taking off with less than MINTO (or anywhere near MINTO in most cases), and I'm not lying about fuel on an airplane that transmits actual fuel load to SGU as soon as you go wheels up.

rickair7777
12-23-2017, 05:56 AM
A jumpseater is that far forward that you need to loose 800# of Fuel?

Look at a picture of a 200. The CG is near the aft wing root. The JS is a quite a ways farther from the CG than the cargo bin. Why is the CG that far back? Because this isn't a 73 or a bus... the motors are on the tail.

trip
12-23-2017, 07:24 AM
I've found it interesting that if you move the jumpseater from row one to the actual which is maybe 72" you go from being in C.G. to needing 400-800#'s of ballast in the cargo area. The jumpseater is only 190#, the distance from the cargo area to the C.G is about the same 72"?
Must be the arm from the C.G to the actual jumpseat position is longer than to the cargo pit?
On the 700 & 900 you sometimes need to move people forward!

KSCessnaDriver
12-23-2017, 07:24 AM
The JSer is a CG problem, common to need 500-800 lbs ballast in the rear bin to balance out the CG. When you're full boat that ballast has to come out of either pax or fuel. I'm not taking off with less than MINTO (or anywhere near MINTO in most cases), and I'm not lying about fuel on an airplane that transmits actual fuel load to SGU as soon as you go wheels up.

It's something with your (OO) airplanes then. Because I've never had to put 800 lbs of ballast on for a jumpseater, on a 200. I've seen crews that aren't willing to burn any fuel to get a J/S on, during my commute on OO, for what its worth.

WesternSkies
12-23-2017, 07:25 AM
I think you all missed the sublet hint in my last message. Half-weights.

Go ahead and ask EDV or AWAC who fly the same plane in the same market how theyíre able to take JSs no problem.

Wow!
You probably want to delete this. Then again you have proven that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Iím glad you donít work at skyw, and I hope youíre an anomaly at Compass.

Mercyful Fate
12-23-2017, 08:00 AM
It's something with your (OO) airplanes then. Because I've never had to put 800 lbs of ballast on for a jumpseater, on a 200. I've seen crews that aren't willing to burn any fuel to get a J/S on, during my commute on OO, for what its worth.


Who you fly 200's for?

zondaracer
12-23-2017, 08:31 AM
It's something with your (OO) airplanes then. Because I've never had to put 800 lbs of ballast on for a jumpseater, on a 200. I've seen crews that aren't willing to burn any fuel to get a J/S on, during my commute on OO, for what its worth.

I have burned off fuel to get a jumpseater on in the past.

As far as the ballast issue, I am not sure but I have heard several theories, one being that our galley is different and causes the plane to be nose heavy. Also, that some 200 operators have a heavy metal plate installed at the rear of the plane, which we don't have. And something about hydraulic 3. But its just stuff that I have heard on the line and I don't have any proof or data to back that up.

I remember being in CVG and telling the ramper we needed to add ballast and he got super upset saying that we are consistently the only company that asks for ballast.

Check Complete
12-23-2017, 08:56 AM
I've also heard that AWAC has a permanent ballast kit in their 200's and doesn't impact their operation as badly because most of their operation at lower altitude cities. I've been to some of our stations and they would report that they are out of sand ballast and that may effect how many pax we could take. I bend over backwards to get a JS on and I have never seen one of our Caps to intentionally deny.

If a JS was denied, the reasons may have been valid CG issues. Keep in mind the station gets a load report before the flight and it could list to the station unable cockpit JS.

rickair7777
12-23-2017, 08:57 AM
I have burned off fuel to get a jumpseater on in the past.

As far as the ballast issue, I am not sure but I have heard several theories, one being that our galley is different and causes the plane to be nose heavy. Also, that some 200 operators have a heavy metal plate installed at the rear of the plane, which we don't have. And something about hydraulic 3. But its just stuff that I have heard on the line and I don't have any proof or data to back that up.

I remember being in CVG and telling the ramper we needed to add ballast and he got super upset saying that we are consistently the only company that asks for ballast.

Yes different airlines have different galley configs.

I understand there's an option for a PERMANENTLY installed ballast that solves a lot of CG problems. But that is an option for the COMPANY, it is not an option for the PILOTS... they fly what the planes as provided by the company. I'm sure ALPA would have the ballast installed in no time. Actually SKW probably didn't install the ballast because they fly in the west and need flexibility to deal with density altitude in the Rockies in August.

rickair7777
12-23-2017, 09:03 AM
Must be the arm from the C.G to the actual jumpseat position is longer than to the cargo pit?

Look at the airplane (including the engines). The JS moment arm is about four times longer than the bin's arm. Also IIRC the cargo door is at the back of the bin, so the CG of the actual cargo is even closer to the wing than the cargo door.

velosnow
12-23-2017, 09:37 AM
Actually SKW probably didn't install the ballast because they fly in the west and need flexibility to deal with density altitude in the Rockies in August.

Was always fun having a V1 of Mach 10 at flaps 8 bouncing down 25 in DEN. Sooo we gonna rotate today or what?

ImPilot I Fly
12-23-2017, 10:41 AM
Yes different airlines have different galley configs.

I understand there's an option for a PERMANENTLY installed ballast that solves a lot of CG problems. But that is an option for the COMPANY, it is not an option for the PILOTS... they fly what the planes as provided by the company. I'm sure ALPA would have the ballast installed in no time. Actually SKW probably didn't install the ballast because they fly in the west and need flexibility to deal with density altitude in the Rockies in August.


The following statement is not backed up by any known knowledge or scientific data....

I believe some operators have a 50 pound weight in the tail cone that alleviates a lot of the CG issues.

I was flying the ORD side last spring when we picked up a lot of flying. Went from 30 departures a day to 100 the next month and 120ish the next month. Again. Spitballing the numbers. Donít remember the exact data. But this is in the ball park. We battled with Envoy ops over ballast. They were not accustomed to needing as much ballast for so many departures. Luckily our chief coordinated with Envoy ops pretty efficiently and laid out some pre planning procedures so that the ballast loading process went a little more smoothly.

We are now reconfiguring our loading on the 200 to address the issue system wide. Going from 4 zones 16-12-12-10 to 6 zones. 8-8-8-8-8-10 to help alleviate the problem.

I agree with you Rick. Iím a commuter and will do just about anything to help someone get on the jumpseat but fudging 800 pounds is out of my comfort range. Is it unsafe? No. But if something happens and you find yourself in an office sitting in a chair across from three managers and or three feds itís hard to justify your actions.

Iíve been booted off the jumpseat on skywest several times. Captains are always very apologetic but I assure them I understand fully.

Even had a captain say.....well I can get you on but I have to take off 16 checked bags...what do you want to do? I smiled and said. I wanna go call out emergency and let you guys get out of here on time with all of our customers bags. He nodded in agreement. I could tell he was putting the ball in my court to make it a little easier for him to say no. Totally understood. I went back up to the gate, called in emergency and caught the next one. #commuterclause

MidnightHauler
12-23-2017, 10:49 AM
Was always fun having a V1 of Mach 10 at flaps 8 bouncing down 25 in DEN. Sooo we gonna rotate today or what?

Man, no joke. Taking off on 25 is like driving down a two lane road in Louisiana. Sometimes I think the nose strut will snap off.

amcnd
12-23-2017, 10:56 AM
Funny how everyone thinks its just SkyWest planes. Yet half our planes are EV, or AS, CA or BR, or xxxxA tail numbers.. all old Endeavor, ASA/ACA/Comair planes.

KSCessnaDriver
12-23-2017, 11:16 AM
Funny how everyone thinks its just SkyWest planes. Yet half our planes are EV, or AS, CA or BR, or xxxxA tail numbers.. all old Endeavor, ASA/ACA/Comair planes.

As if you're the only carrier flying planes that weren't purchased by your company...

gojo
12-23-2017, 12:27 PM
Funny how everyone thinks its just SkyWest planes. Yet half our planes are EV, or AS, CA or BR, or xxxxA tail numbers.. all old Endeavor, ASA/ACA/Comair planes.

I donít think itís the planes at all. To an extent itís a challenge with the 200ís. But to me it seems that Skywest is more restrictive than other 200 operators. No proof, just a hunch. Maybe your alt gas is rounded up heavily? Or maybe itís your reserve? I donít know. Itís gotta be frustrating for both sides here. Last year restricted to 42 from msp to grr. And thatís not a short flight. Most times when youíre carrying alt gas it seems 46 is the magic number in my experience. I flew the 200 for over 3 years and I totally get that the CG is adversely affected with a Jumpseater. But why are cabin seats reduced so drastically on Skywest flights when an alternate is required?

Tippy
12-23-2017, 09:28 PM
One theory I have is that aerodata tries to get the CG to an "optimal point" therefore suggesting more ballast than needed. There has been more than one occasion that it kicks back 600 lbs of ballast required. I would then add say 200 (arbitrary #s) and it would give me a valid manifest. Not sure if anyone else has come across this but I have seen it more than once.

Check Complete
12-23-2017, 09:36 PM
One thing that is happening that I've been told that will help forward CG issues is the grouping of passengers from 4 sections to 6.

Soon the pax sections on the 200 will have 6 sections an that is supposed to, I've been told, will give better resolution to the CG forward point.

We will see?

Short flights with an alternate are usually limited by limited by landing weight max.

wrxpilot
12-23-2017, 09:58 PM
As if you're the only carrier flying planes that weren't purchased by your company...

So did a SkyWest pilot steal your wife or something? Last I heard, they have almost 3,500 pilots. Theyíre probably not all out to get you.

WesternSkies
12-23-2017, 10:04 PM
One theory I have is that aerodata tries to get the CG to an "optimal point" therefore suggesting more ballast than needed. There has been more than one occasion that it kicks back 600 lbs of ballast required. I would then add say 200 (arbitrary #s) and it would give me a valid manifest. Not sure if anyone else has come across this but I have seen it more than once.

I too have experienced this.

Fr8Thrust
12-24-2017, 12:35 AM
Wow!
You probably want to delete this. Then again you have proven that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Iím glad you donít work at skyw, and I hope youíre an anomaly at Compass.

Iím not even going to entertain this. Just make sure youíre counting the children appropriately. Maybe youíve misconstrued my words.

RJDio
12-24-2017, 09:13 AM
When I flew the 200 at YV, we had 2 zones and rarely did we leave anyone behind, including js. Came to OO and I saw it more regularly. Not sure if going from 4-6 zones will help, but I hope it does.

Only a handful of occasions did I fly with a captain who did not make any effort to take a js. Even after I'd find a solution within the bounds of legality. They would simply turn to me and say "yeah it's not gonna happen today ". But it was always lifers who, I suspect, were showing mainline dudes who was the boss. But again this probably happens single digit occasions over 7 years in the right seat.

velosnow
12-24-2017, 10:00 AM
When I flew the 200 at YV, we had 2 zones and rarely did we leave anyone behind, including js. Came to OO and I saw it more regularly. Not sure if going from 4-6 zones will help, but I hope it does.

Only a handful of occasions did I fly with a captain who did not make any effort to take a js. Even after I'd find a solution within the bounds of legality. They would simply turn to me and say "yeah it's not gonna happen today ". But it was always lifers who, I suspect, were showing mainline dudes who was the boss. But again this probably happens single digit occasions over 7 years in the right seat.

So many JS stories...had the opposite happen one snowy day in ORD, we were working our butts off to accommodate a mainline JS of which she witnessed many attempts and I even took a delay for it. Ultimately just couldn't make it happen and right after I apologized she said "well thanks for nothing" and stormed off the aircraft. Can't please everyone :cool:

TheAshtar
12-26-2017, 11:45 AM
https://youtu.be/7gxxw-pUivo

SevereClear1
12-26-2017, 12:26 PM
Walk in the back and "find" children

Fr8Thrust
12-28-2017, 12:30 PM
Walk in the back and "find" children

Be careful or WesternSkies will report your IP address to the nearest ASI! ^sarcasm

unit monster
12-29-2017, 10:37 PM
I've had the misfortune of being left behind at least a dozen and a half times in the last couple of years, had zero denials in the preceding decade before Skywest took over the routes. Most of these specific airframes* I have lots of time in. (I realize W&B config can change with Carrier.)

You had the discretion of the width of a #2 pencil lead.

I've witnessed four of these "right-on-the-line" manual W&B in the past year where I was denied. Maybe new Captains are coached to use their judgement whether the CG is touching the outside or inside of the line. I don't know, just my experience.

No, I didn't contact JS Coordinator, IMO the Captain did things how they saw fit by the book. I will always show Skywest jumpseaters the same level of safety and I appreciate their professionalism.

*years of flying these exact airframes I can count on maybe half a hand the times I had to leave a JS behind.

kfahmi
01-02-2018, 11:04 PM
Walk in the back and "find" children

We got plenty of pax who act like children, so... Are you suggesting they really only weigh 82 in summer, 87 in winter? 😁

gojo
01-05-2018, 01:17 PM
We got plenty of pax who act like children, so... Are you suggesting they really only weigh 82 in summer, 87 in winter? 😁

Speaking of children