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View Full Version : To those that left jetBlue....


coopervane
12-28-2017, 07:28 AM
It seems like you all signed a NDA after you left.

Any regrets? Anything you miss? Do you recommend?

I keep hearing ďitís really not much better at _______airlines.....they all have their problemsĒ.

Did you find that to be true or not? The writing on the JETBLUE wall became much more legible in the last few weeks for me.


CaptCoolHand
12-28-2017, 07:50 AM
It seems like you all signed a NDA after you left.

Any regrets? Anything you miss? Do you recommend?

I keep hearing “it’s really not much better at _______airlines.....they all have their problems”.

Did you find that to be true or not? The writing on the JETBLUE wall became much more legible in the last few weeks for me.

Two friends that left in the last three years... no NDA signed. Neither have regrets. Do what you need to do for you and yours.

Edpilot23
12-28-2017, 08:09 AM
Friend of mine left for UAL last May. No NDA no regrets at all, happy as a clown.
Two friends have CJO for Southwest, both of them under one year on property. I think with the last ALPA email they'll be gone.
Most junior captains I fly with on the E90 are updating constantly waiting for the call.


IQuitEagle
12-28-2017, 08:38 AM
At FedEx now. And I love it. The issues here are nothing like those at JetBlue, where it became a headache every time I came in to work. And I also love flying boxes instead of people; that alone removes over 50% of the B.S.

Oh, and a solid contract with pay, bennies, and work rules which blow JB out of the water. No regrets at all. Just wish I had done it sooner!

slimothy
12-28-2017, 08:41 AM
I went to the SWA page and asked for former B6 guys to message me. The feedback I got from the 3 that got back to me was all positive. No regrets. One guy was a little ****ed that he had to pay for his own uniforms and parking. But I think in the grand scheme of things, heís still in the black.

Bluewaffle
12-28-2017, 08:46 AM
It seems like you all signed a NDA after you left.

Any regrets? Anything you miss? Do you recommend?

I keep hearing ďitís really not much better at _______airlines.....they all have their problemsĒ.

Did you find that to be true or not? The writing on the JETBLUE wall became much more legible in the last few weeks for me.

Granted I was only at JB for a year, but two years into UAL, I have earned more in my 401k than I did in the whole 9 years I spent at a regional. I miss the guys I flew with at JB, but at 153/ hr to fly a 737 Iíve got no regrets. Operationally, United is just a much better run airline. It seemed I was in one meltdown after another with JB, always delayed....and the Hotels....night and day difference. The grass IS greener on the other side.

Temocil27
12-28-2017, 08:49 AM
I also went to FedEx and I couldnít be happier. The pay, contract, and benefits are incredible. Instead of JB giving my family $800 a year for health insurance contributions, FedEx gives us $4k. Iím not flying regional routes during 12 hour duty days. Iím treated with respect. Oh, and dat paycheck.

Bluedriver
12-28-2017, 09:04 AM
Que the Blueberry Juiceboxes Southerner, Hyperboy, F16 and a few others to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about....

Contracts almost done rats, keep churning that butter!

Cloud5urfer
12-28-2017, 10:42 AM
Que the Blueberry Juiceboxes Southerner, Hyperboy, F16 and a few others to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about....

Contracts almost done rats, keep churning that butter!

I can't see any of them arguing with those that have found happiness at other airlines. None of them have their heads in the clouds like that.

Disagreements come from people spouting off bulls#!t about how regional airlines are better than B6.

atrdriver
12-28-2017, 11:05 AM
I can't see any of them arguing with those that have found happiness at other airlines. None of them have their heads in the clouds like that.

Disagreements come from people spouting off bulls#!t about how regional airlines are better than B6.

No one has said regionals are better than B6. That's a strawman.

There ARE regionals which have much better hotels and work rules than B6, which is shameful (for us, not for them).

HighFlight
12-28-2017, 11:26 AM
And pay, at least for the first year or two. Hopefully you guys get that fixed very soon! You guys and gals deserve it.

No one has said regionals are better than B6. That's a strawman.

There ARE regionals which have much better hotels and work rules than B6, which is shameful (for us, not for them).

Cloud5urfer
12-28-2017, 04:00 PM
And pay, at least for the first year or two. Hopefully you guys get that fixed very soon! You guys and gals deserve it.

Our first year pay is offensive, just like Hawaiian's is. Second year pay may be trailing the big 3, but I don't see any regionals that can beat it unless you were top of the Captain pay scale before they left.

Southerner
12-28-2017, 04:21 PM
Que the Blueberry Juiceboxes Southerner, Hyperboy, F16 and a few others to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about....



Contracts almost done rats, keep churning that butter!



Even after ALL the explanations that we have given for our positions, your STILL can't comprehend them. It's pretty sad, really.

Here ya go buddy. I hope this helps...

https://www.sylvanlearning.com/reading/reading/topics/reading-comprehension




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BeatNavy
12-28-2017, 04:27 PM
Our first year pay is offensive, just like Hawaiian's is. Second year pay may be trailing the big 3, but I don't see any regionals that can beat it unless you were top of the Captain pay scale before they left.

https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/endeavor_air

2nd year guys at endeavor can hold CA and are making more than our 2nd year guys on the E190. So, yeah. Our 2nd year pay is offensive as well. As is every year of our pay. The fact that we can even be compared to a regional is offensive. And the fact that they can win in ANY way against a major airline is insulting.

ShyGuy
12-28-2017, 04:37 PM
Of the people leaving, anyone leaving with 5 (or more) years longevity?

I think with the last ALPA email they'll be gone.

What did the ALPA email say? Negotiation update?

IQuitEagle
12-28-2017, 05:08 PM
Of the people leaving, anyone leaving with 5 (or more) years longevity?

I left at 7 years and left seat 190. What is sad (for JetBlue) is that on 2nd year FO pay at FedEx I will be making more than I was as a 7 year E190 CA...with everything else in addition to hourly rate being better as well.

Xtreme87
12-28-2017, 06:06 PM
Cargo scares me because of how fast AI is coming to town. Single pilot IS coming and itís coming to cargo carriers first.

IQuitEagle
12-28-2017, 06:33 PM
Cargo scares me because of how fast AI is coming to town. Single pilot IS coming and it’s coming to cargo carriers first.

Is it coming? Yes. Soon? No.

cf105
12-29-2017, 04:35 AM
And pay, at least for the first year or two. Hopefully you guys get that fixed very soon! You guys and gals deserve it.

which Regional has better pay, better hotels and work rules than B6, please please tell me so I can apply there.

cf105
12-29-2017, 04:38 AM
https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/endeavor_air

2nd year guys at endeavor can hold CA and are making more than our 2nd year guys on the E190. So, yeah. Our 2nd year pay is offensive as well. As is every year of our pay. The fact that we can even be compared to a regional is offensive. And the fact that they can win in ANY way against a major airline is insulting.

you're comparing CA to FO pay but used the magic word "Can". Right now 9E is desperate for CA and yes, right now, demographics make that you upgrade within 2 years, but that's not in the contract, no guarantee how long that will last. At some point in the near future they'll have enough CAs to slow the upgrade.

Rascal
12-29-2017, 04:53 AM
I have been trying to move on from JetBlue for 2 years now. On paper I am fairly competitive but I am not getting any calls despite numerous friends at Legacies trying to help. At this point I am almost considering go back to the regional world and taking advantage of the flow/preferential interviews.

It is a sad state of affairs when Endeavour pilots are being compared to a "Major" airline.

rightside02
12-29-2017, 05:40 AM
Left JB last April of 2017, don't recall signing any NDA documents . Simply sent my iPad and ID back to the company that's it .

Bozo the pilot
12-29-2017, 06:14 AM
Our first year pay is offensive, just like Hawaiian's is. Second year pay may be trailing the big 3, but I don't see any regionals that can beat it unless you were top of the Captain pay scale before they left.

Thats a great Jetblue recruiting slogan "I don't see any regionals that can beat us..."
They'll be lining up:D

Bozo the pilot
12-29-2017, 06:16 AM
Even after ALL the explanations that we have given for our positions, your STILL can't comprehend them. It's pretty sad, really.

Here ya go buddy. I hope this helps...

https://www.sylvanlearning.com/reading/reading/topics/reading-comprehension




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You do defend B6 ad nauseam- They have no intention of agreeing to a CBA any time soon South.
Hope we all have a good New Year though. :)

pilot3198
12-29-2017, 06:20 AM
Iím sure Iíll regret commenting on this, but if youíre interested in a different angle - I left Southwest for Jetblue after being there for about a year in 2005. I made my decision at the time based on living in base and thinking the two companies were very similar. Well, I personally find the differences between the two companies quite vast. Not just in how the operation is run, but many other things such as; the lower value put on pilots, the poor pilot-flight attendant relationship (which I think is greatly driven by their expectation of pilots cleaning the cabin), the poor work rules and quality of trips (i.e., redeyeís, lack of calender day minimum), vacation allotment, and my biggest complaint; hotels (i.e., Tacoma), etc.

Southwest may not be Delta, American, or United, but at least I felt that I worked for a Ďmajorí airline. I equate working at Jetblue to playing minor league baseball. Not the worst minor league team, but not the majors. Donít get me wrong; I make the best of my job (no sense in hating life or having regrets) and I do get to drive to and from work. But would I make the same decision again - absolutely not!

Bluedriver
12-29-2017, 07:21 AM
Iím sure Iíll regret commenting on this, but if youíre interested in a different angle - I left Southwest for Jetblue after being there for about a year in 2005. I made my decision at the time based on living in base and thinking the two companies were very similar. Well, I personally find the differences between the two companies quite vast. Not just in how the operation is run, but many other things such as; the lower value put on pilots, the poor pilot-flight attendant relationship (which I think is greatly driven by their expectation of pilots cleaning the cabin), the poor work rules and quality of trips (i.e., redeyeís, lack of calender day minimum), vacation allotment, and my biggest complaint; hotels (i.e., Tacoma), etc.

Southwest may not be Delta, American, or United, but at least I felt that I worked for a Ďmajorí airline. I equate working at Jetblue to playing minor league baseball. Not the worst minor league team, but not the majors. Donít get me wrong; I make the best of my job (no sense in hating life or having regrets) and I do get to drive to and from work. But would I make the same decision again - absolutely not!

"You're just being negative".

Sarcasm off.

Great post, you better not be attacked for telling the truth.

Otterbox
12-29-2017, 07:43 AM
I have been trying to move on from JetBlue for 2 years now. On paper I am fairly competitive but I am not getting any calls despite numerous friends at Legacies trying to help. At this point I am almost considering go back to the regional world and taking advantage of the flow/preferential interviews.

It is a sad state of affairs when Endeavour pilots are being compared to a "Major" airline.

I know someone who had the same thoughts about jumping ship from Virgin America to Piedmont. I thought it was a poorly thought out move then, and I think itís a poorly thought out move now and a bit dramatic in both cases.

Sure JetBlue lags way behind tier one majors in pay, retirement etc. but Iím not sure going to a regional where best case you have a 5 year flow through waiting for you (worse case 2 rejections from Delta if you go with endeavor instead of one of the AA WO) is worth giving up 5+ seniority at JetBlue. You should probably have a contract by 2021ish... Sooner once more of your pilots leave as the retirements at the legacies ramp up and they vacuum up folks to replace them.

Definitely keep trying leave, but think about the $$$ youíd be losing by taking the 5-10 year hiatus at a regional if you have to rely on a flow through agreement to get hired. Break out a calculator and do the math and see how it all works out. Iíve been wrong before but Iíd be highly surprised if the numbers favored leaving JetBlue for a regional.

Rascal
12-29-2017, 10:49 AM
I know someone who had the same thoughts about jumping ship from Virgin America to Piedmont. I thought it was a poorly thought out move then, and I think itís a poorly thought out move now and a bit dramatic in both cases.

Sure JetBlue lags way behind tier one majors in pay, retirement etc. but Iím not sure going to a regional where best case you have a 5 year flow through waiting for you (worse case 2 rejections from Delta if you go with endeavor instead of one of the AA WO) is worth giving up 5+ seniority at JetBlue. You should probably have a contract by 2021ish... Sooner once more of your pilots leave as the retirements at the legacies ramp up and they vacuum up folks to replace them.

Definitely keep trying leave, but think about the $$$ youíd be losing by taking the 5-10 year hiatus at a regional if you have to rely on a flow through agreement to get hired. Break out a calculator and do the math and see how it all works out. Iíve been wrong before but Iíd be highly surprised if the numbers favored leaving JetBlue for a regional.

You made some very valid points but the big pay off is a guranteed interview or even guranteed flow. Majority of my peers are at the Legacies but for one reason or another I can't get an interview and I am worried that it might never happen.

HighFlight
12-29-2017, 10:53 AM
9E is putting people with 1000 121 hours into the left seat as soon as they are out of training. That means new hire-to-CA is taking about 4-5 months. So BeatNavy is correct in his calculations. Let’s do a 5-year comparison with “now” rates:

So a new hire at JB right now can expect to make CA in 5 years (maybe more?). 9E will be a CA in 4 months ~ 2 years, depending on hours.

Year 1 JB - $54 X 75 X 12 = $48,600
Year 2 JB - $85 X 70 X 12 = $71,400
Year 3 JB - $100 X 70 X 12 = $84,000
Year 4 JB - $109 X 70 X 12 = $91,560
Year 5 JB - $114 X 70 X 12 = $95,760 ($391,320 total)

Year 1 9E - $50 X 75 X 12 = $45,000
Year 2 9E - $86 X 75 X 12 = $77,400 (CA)
Year 3 9E - $88 X 75 X 12 = $79,200
Year 4 9E - $90 X 75 X 12 = $81,000
Year 5 9E - $92 X 75 X 12 = $82,800 ($365,400 total)

9E guy with 2 years & enough hours to move to JB, and is on the fence about it:

Year 3 CA - $88 X 75 X 12 = $79,200
Year 4 CA - $90 X 75 X 12 = $81,000
Year 5 CA - $92 X 75 X 12 = $82,800
Year 6 CA - $94 X 75 X 12 = $84,600
Year 7 CA - $96 X 75 X 12 = $86,400 ($414,000 total)

Two different scenarios, comparing straight-up new hires at each, and one showing a person moving from 9E to B6. As you can see, there is not a whole lot of financial reason to leave 9E, especially considering all the talk on this forum about how miserable life is at JB. Not the case at 9E; management has treated us well.

Now obviously, after one makes CA at JB, it then blows 9E CA pay out of the skies.

9E - $96 X 75 X 12 = $86,400 vs.
B6 - $185 X 70 X 12 = $155,400

And you’re right, eventually the CA quick upgrade thing will slow down, but I don’t see it doing so in the next year or more. In fact, it has only gotten faster in the past 24 months. And with a fair amount of attrition off the top, that movement will continue.

Bear in mind my analysis is simply trying to point out that the differences between JB and the top-paying regional is not all that far of a gap to bridge. It SHOULD be, since your company is a major airline, and I HOPE that gets larger, very soon, for the sake of every pilot on property. But right now, JB is enjoying some pretty large profits which are as large as they are partly because the pilot group makes minimally more than a regional group in the first 5 years.

7% more income at JB in 5 years, if considering straight new hires at each place.

$49,000 less pay at JB than 9E for a person looking to move up.

you're comparing CA to FO pay but used the magic word "Can". Right now 9E is desperate for CA and yes, right now, demographics make that you upgrade within 2 years, but that's not in the contract, no guarantee how long that will last. At some point in the near future they'll have enough CAs to slow the upgrade.

CaptCoolHand
12-29-2017, 11:02 AM
You made some very valid points but the big pay off is a guranteed interview or even guranteed flow. Majority of my peers are at the Legacies but for one reason or another I can't get an interview and I am worried that it might never happen.

Are you going to all the job fairs open houses and road shows or whatever theyíre calling it now?

If itís where you wanna be donít stop, but man going back to that would be a monster step, not sure in the right direction.

Iíd never question someone moving up and out and I understand your reasoning. To me seems like a backwards move.

Best of luck in your decision.


Weíre likely never getting anything bigger than a 321. So if you need wide body flying you gotta go. When... I say when, we eventually get this CBA inked. Believe me itís trying every once of patience I have. Jb will be a good place to hang your hat. Itís not going to fix all our problems. But itíll sure help with tolerating them.

nuball5
12-29-2017, 11:18 AM
9E is putting people with 1000 121 hours into the left seat as soon as they are out of training. That means new hire-to-CA is taking about 4-5 months. So BeatNavy is correct in his calculations. Letís do a 5-year comparison with ďnowĒ rates:

So a new hire at JB right now can expect to make CA in 5 years (maybe more?). 9E will be a CA in 4 months ~ 2 years, depending on hours.

Year 1 JB - $54 X 75 X 12 = $48,600
Year 2 JB - $85 X 70 X 12 = $71,400
Year 3 JB - $100 X 70 X 12 = $84,000
Year 4 JB - $109 X 70 X 12 = $91,560
Year 5 JB - $114 X 70 X 12 = $95,760 ($391,320 total)

Year 1 9E - $50 X 75 X 12 = $45,000
Year 2 9E - $86 X 75 X 12 = $77,400 (CA)
Year 3 9E - $88 X 75 X 12 = $79,200
Year 4 9E - $90 X 75 X 12 = $81,000
Year 5 9E - $92 X 75 X 12 = $82,800 ($365,400 total)

9E guy with 2 years &enough hours to move to JB, and is on the fence about it:

Year 3 CA - $88 X 75 X 12 = $79,200
Year 4 CA - $90 X 75 X 12 = $81,000
Year 5 CA - $92 X 75 X 12 = $82,800
Year 6 CA - $94 X 75 X 12 = $84,600
Year 7 CA - $96 X 75 X 12 = $86,400 ($414,000 total)

Two different scenarios, comparing straight-up new hires at each, and one showing a person moving from 9E to B6. As you can see, there is not a whole lot of financial reason to leave 9E, especially considering all the talk on this forum about how miserable life is at JB. Not the case at 9E; management has treated us well.

Now obviously, after one makes CA at JB, it then blows 9E CA pay out of the skies.

9E - $96 X 75 X 12 = $86,400 vs.
B6 - $185 X 70 X 12 = $155,400

And youíre right, eventually the CA quick upgrade thing will slow down, but I donít see it doing so in the next year or more. In fact, it has only gotten faster in the past 24 months. And with a fair amount of attrition off the top, that movement will continue.

Bear in mind my analysis is simply trying to point out that the differences between JB and the top-paying regional is not all that far of a gap to bridge. It SHOULD be, since your company is a major airline, and I HOPE that gets larger, very soon, for the sake of every pilot on property. But right now, JB is enjoying some pretty large profits which are as large as they are partly because the pilot group makes minimally more than a regional group in the first 5 years.

7% more income at JB in 5 years, if considering straight new hires at each place.

$49,000 less pay at JB than 9E for a person looking to move up.

These numbers would make sense if JetBlue went all E190, but it's only a quarter of Jetblue's fleet. Anyone staying as a 5 year FO on the 190 is probably doing it strictly for QOL.

Count Dracula
12-29-2017, 11:43 AM
Iím sure Iíll regret commenting on this, but if youíre interested in a different angle - I left Southwest for Jetblue after being there for about a year in 2005. I made my decision at the time based on living in base and thinking the two companies were very similar. Well, I personally find the differences between the two companies quite vast. Not just in how the operation is run, but many other things such as; the lower value put on pilots, the poor pilot-flight attendant relationship (which I think is greatly driven by their expectation of pilots cleaning the cabin), the poor work rules and quality of trips (i.e., redeyeís, lack of calender day minimum), vacation allotment, and my biggest complaint; hotels (i.e., Tacoma), etc.



Southwest may not be Delta, American, or United, but at least I felt that I worked for a Ďmajorí airline. I equate working at Jetblue to playing minor league baseball. Not the worst minor league team, but not the majors. Donít get me wrong; I make the best of my job (no sense in hating life or having regrets) and I do get to drive to and from work. But would I make the same decision again - absolutely not!


I commend you for the post. Individuals who can pass along their experiences & decisions from the past (good or bad) show a lot of character. Best of luck in the future!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pilotpayne
12-29-2017, 12:00 PM
These numbers would make sense if JetBlue went all E190, but it's only a quarter of Jetblue's fleet. Anyone staying as a 5 year FO on the 190 is probably doing it strictly for QOL.

This is why some of these arguments are ridiculous. We are using ďsome factsĒ to make arguments while ignoring others as you just pointed out. We also have people talking about ďguaranteed flows ď history tends to not agree with that idea. We are also comparing Fedex to JetBlue....really heck guys leave the majors or that vaunted Southwest to go to Fedex. Apparently as another guy said life is miserable here, I think thatís a bit of a stretch. And to finish it off we all assume this will be the status here forever (bluedriver Iím still waiting for a date for the CBA vs sometime in the future).
I am not defending Blue here at all but I do think we need to matain just a little perspective. I will say it again as I have before. JetBlue is a ďregional playerĒ it is east coast focused, it flys narrow body aircraft and has a schedule that focuses heavily on the vacation flyers. We are working on a first contract and have literally altered the culture here by doing the right thing and voting in a union. Itís a painful time and managment is being management. If you come here expecting anything else you are not going to be happy. Will it get better I absolutely think it will but itís not easy getting to that point. The difference here is we are not the only game in town. Again absolutely not defending just trying to be a realist. If you donít want to be here (and itís sad if thatís the case and JetBlue is largely to blame) update your apps and go. There is no point to be unhappy in such an amazing hiring environment.

Xtreme87
12-29-2017, 12:52 PM
Leaving JB for a regional is exactly how people in this industry screw themselves and wind up hating life in the end. If the music stops, I can definitely get comfortable at this place. Flying 5 or 6 legs a day at a regional for the rest of my life would make me quit and go work at Costco.

Bozo the pilot
12-29-2017, 02:12 PM
This is why some of these arguments are ridiculous. We are using ďsome factsĒ to make arguments while ignoring others as you just pointed out. We also have people talking about ďguaranteed flows ď history tends to not agree with that idea. We are also comparing Fedex to JetBlue....really heck guys leave the majors or that vaunted Southwest to go to Fedex. Apparently as another guy said life is miserable here, I think thatís a bit of a stretch. And to finish it off we all assume this will be the status here forever (bluedriver Iím still waiting for a date for the CBA vs sometime in the future).
I am not defending Blue here at all but I do think we need to matain just a little perspective. I will say it again as I have before. JetBlue is a ďregional playerĒ it is east coast focused, it flys narrow body aircraft and has a schedule that focuses heavily on the vacation flyers. We are working on a first contract and have literally altered the culture here by doing the right thing and voting in a union. Itís a painful time and managment is being management. If you come here expecting anything else you are not going to be happy. Will it get better I absolutely think it will but itís not easy getting to that point. The difference here is we are not the only game in town. Again absolutely not defending just trying to be a realist. If you donít want to be here (and itís sad if thatís the case and JetBlue is largely to blame) update your apps and go. There is no point to be unhappy in such an amazing hiring environment.

Yes leaving B6 for a regional flow is not a good move imo, however, this company is years away from a full implementation of a CBA- Guys who are thinking of B6, should know this and stay away. For now anyway.

slimothy
12-29-2017, 02:13 PM
This is why some of these arguments are ridiculous. We are using ďsome factsĒ to make arguments while ignoring others as you just pointed out. We also have people talking about ďguaranteed flows ď history tends to not agree with that idea. We are also comparing Fedex to JetBlue....really heck guys leave the majors or that vaunted Southwest to go to Fedex. Apparently as another guy said life is miserable here, I think thatís a bit of a stretch. And to finish it off we all assume this will be the status here forever (bluedriver Iím still waiting for a date for the CBA vs sometime in the future).
I am not defending Blue here at all but I do think we need to matain just a little perspective. I will say it again as I have before. JetBlue is a ďregional playerĒ it is east coast focused, it flys narrow body aircraft and has a schedule that focuses heavily on the vacation flyers. We are working on a first contract and have literally altered the culture here by doing the right thing and voting in a union. Itís a painful time and managment is being management. If you come here expecting anything else you are not going to be happy. Will it get better I absolutely think it will but itís not easy getting to that point. The difference here is we are not the only game in town. Again absolutely not defending just trying to be a realist. If you donít want to be here (and itís sad if thatís the case and JetBlue is largely to blame) update your apps and go. There is no point to be unhappy in such an amazing hiring environment.

Again, for whatever reason, it just isnít that easy for some of us. I update regularly, have been for a few years. Internals at DAL
Havenít done the trick for me. So until I get that call, Iím stuck here, and Iím going to demand better from the company.

HighFlight
12-29-2017, 04:06 PM
Just to be clear, I have never implied that leaving JB for a regional was a good idea. In fact, leaving a regional for ANYWHERE that YOUR airline's name is on the ticket is a good idea.

I was just responding to those who say JB is far an above a regional when it comes to pay and QOL. That may not be quite so true, and is something to consider as one is planning to make a career move.

I would further state that even with a pay cut, going from a regional to JB or any other major is a smart move. 2-3 years down the road, you'll be glad you did, I am sure.

I simply posted those numbers (using the lower paying acft at both B6 and 9E) to show how small the pay gap has become. Fingers crossed for you to get that CBA sooner rather than later!

Bozo the pilot
12-29-2017, 04:09 PM
Just to be clear, I have never implied that leaving JB for a regional was a good idea. In fact, leaving a regional for ANYWHERE that YOUR airline's name is on the ticket is a good idea.

I was just responding to those who say JB is far an above a regional when it comes to pay and QOL. That may not be quite so true, and is something to consider as one is planning to make a career move.

I would further state that even with a pay cut, going from a regional to JB or any other major is a smart move. 2-3 years down the road, you'll be glad you did, I am sure.

I simply posted those numbers (using the lower paying acft at both B6 and 9E) to show how small the pay gap has become. Fingers crossed for you to get that CBA sooner rather than later!

And youíre correct- itís shameful that the numbers are as close as they are for a regional/ďmajorĒ comparison. Well done even if the juicers get on you. Those of us living in reality know what youíre saying 👍

citxls
12-29-2017, 04:37 PM
I think the real let down (and I'm sure most would agree) is that JB management can easily make this airline one of the top airlines to work for and a great place to be long term. We have a great group of pilots who are willing to go above and beyond but don't due to the current status and delay of negotiations (thankfully.)

Having said that, they choose to fight us on narrow body pay and try to shove the culture card down our throats. Our union negotiators know what they're doing, its ultimately up to JB to get the good faith back from us and do the right thing.

pilotpayne
12-29-2017, 04:49 PM
Again, for whatever reason, it just isnít that easy for some of us. I update regularly, have been for a few years. Internals at DAL
Havenít done the trick for me. So until I get that call, Iím stuck here, and Iím going to demand better from the company.

As we all are.

pilotpayne
12-29-2017, 04:51 PM
I think the real let down (and I'm sure most would agree) is that JB management can easily make this airline one of the top airlines to work for and a great place to be long term. We have a great group of pilots who are willing to go above and beyond but don't due to the current status and delay of negotiations (thankfully.)

Having said that, they choose to fight us on narrow body pay and try to shove the culture card down our throats. Our union negotiators know what they're doing, its ultimately up to JB to get the good faith back from us and do the right thing.

Spot on. Bluedriver and I have talked about this. Itís the amazing waste of potential and talent here that is the sad part. They have everything they need but canít get out of their own way and execute it.

Bluetruth
12-30-2017, 02:51 PM
the poor pilot-flight attendant relationship (which I think is greatly driven by their expectation of pilots cleaning the cabin)

Its the company that gives FAs this expectation. Its fed by some pilots who do help, who are then super appreciated.

Bluetruth
12-30-2017, 03:41 PM
This is what FAs are told:

Pilots must clean when non-reving, if they don't then that's a pass riding violation.

Most pilots just walk off. Now I do not give a GD if they do or don't, what I do care about is the company using this issue to diminish our own perceived work load (while actually working or non-reving ourselves, because 99percent Inflight cleans when non-reving).

Basically the company has told us not to worry and its not a big deal to clean the planes because everyone is going to pitch in, when in fact more times than not no one outside of Inflight does.

So the company needs to enforce its own rules or admit this task is 100 percent on Inflights shoulders (which is fine, and can be used in future negotiations).

P-3Bubba
12-30-2017, 05:23 PM
You know who needs to clean the jet? The company thatís contracted to do it. FAís, non-Revís and Pilots who ďhelp outĒ are subjected to nasty stuff in the cabin. Let the pros who are properly equipped to handle a clean up duty do the job. The end.

Sorry. Irrelevant to the thread.

-Bubs

dingo222
12-30-2017, 05:32 PM
These numbers would make sense if JetBlue went all E190, but it's only a quarter of Jetblue's fleet. Anyone staying as a 5 year FO on the 190 is probably doing it strictly for QOL.

This. These numbers aren't apples to apples. I'm a 4th year bus FO, and I will make twice the estimate here. I commute, don't pick up rsa/vda/rtf/wtf etc.

And let's not forget Endeavors recent history. 4 years ago Captains and FO's were capped at 4th year rates coming out of bk. This was after touting an industry leading JCBA, only to have Daddy Delta withhold payment and drive Endeavor into bk. From boom to bust, and now back to boom. I'm at JB because of that bust and I'm looking to leave. If you don't control your feed, you are living on borrowed time. Jb sure needs some work and we desperately need a contract, but it's still better than the uncertainty of the regionals. That being said, if I get a call to leave jb tomorrow, I'm out.

Armybeatnavy
12-30-2017, 07:11 PM
Out of curiosity. I have seen some JetBlue crews wear a light blue shirt but as well as a darker one. Change in uniform lately?


Essayons!

capt707
12-31-2017, 05:23 AM
Out of curiosity. I have seen some JetBlue crews wear a light blue shirt but as well as a darker one. Change in uniform lately?


Essayons!


The dark blue was probably a FA. With the new wool overcoats we all look the same now :rolleyes:

Combatcraig
12-31-2017, 06:36 AM
Itís funny to get off the jet and meet the inbound crew to discuss the jet/rides etc. ďSooo... Whoís the CaptainĒ? All four of us look the same in black coats lol.

Xtreme87
12-31-2017, 07:06 AM
Are people really that egocentric that they need to stand out in appearance to show rank? Guess you wouldnít like it at corporate where everybody just wears business casual. Iíll take the warm wool coat over the stupid WWII bomber jacket which did nothing to cover my nuggets.

Aquaticus
12-31-2017, 07:40 AM
I think the juicers have always had a little Stockholm syndrome. They sit there in their airport parking lot hotel rocking back and forth with blue latex gloves on and sixty 4 oz bottles of water scattered around them. The big three, SWA, and big cargo are just so enjoyable to work for right now that it is hard to argue for staying at JetBlue. There will always be risk in being on the bottom of a seniority list but working for an airline that can't define who cleans the damn airplane is either intentional or incompetent.

Choppersnplanes
12-31-2017, 07:45 AM
[QUOTE=Rascal;2491196]I have been trying to move on from JetBlue for 2 years now. On paper I am fairly competitive but I am not getting any calls despite numerous friends at Legacies trying to help. At this point I am almost considering go back to the regional world and taking advantage of the flow/preferential interviews.


It is a sad state of affairs when Endeavour pilots are being compared to a "Major" airline.[/QUOTE

Have you seen Endeavor pay scale? Itís not bad for a Regional but it takes 4 years CPT pay to equal year 2 JetBlue FO pay, and unless you take LGA 200 Cpt. You can be on Reserve forever. I just flew with a 17 year Cpt in MSP who still canít hold a line. As far as flow at Envoy my original class from 2011 still has 4 years till predicted flow. The people who are eligible to flow now just got told they canít till they can staff Cptís. I wouldnít say itís all sunshine and rainbows in the Regional world.

rvr1800
12-31-2017, 08:39 AM
I think the juicers have always had a little Stockholm syndrome. They sit there in their airport parking lot hotel rocking back and forth with blue latex gloves on and sixty 4 oz bottles of water scattered around them. The big three, SWA, and big cargo are just so enjoyable to work for right now that it is hard to argue for staying at JetBlue. There will always be risk in being on the bottom of a seniority list but working for an airline that can't define who cleans the damn airplane is either intentional or incompetent.

Itís clearly defined in the FOM that flight attendants clean the plane and that pilots do not.

FOM 10.3.25 page 863 and 864

hyperboy
12-31-2017, 09:39 AM
[QUOTE=Rascal;2491196]I have been trying to move on from JetBlue for 2 years now. On paper I am fairly competitive but I am not getting any calls despite numerous friends at Legacies trying to help. At this point I am almost considering go back to the regional world and taking advantage of the flow/preferential interviews.


It is a sad state of affairs when Endeavour pilots are being compared to a "Major" airline.[/QUOTE

Have you seen Endeavor pay scale? Itís not bad for a Regional but it takes 4 years CPT pay to equal year 2 JetBlue FO pay, and unless you take LGA 200 Cpt. You can be on Reserve forever. I just flew with a 17 year Cpt in MSP who still canít hold a line. As far as flow at Envoy my original class from 2011 still has 4 years till predicted flow. The people who are eligible to flow now just got told they canít till they can staff Cptís. I wouldnít say itís all sunshine and rainbows in the Regional world.

ATR DRIVER paints a way different picture of the regionals with brushes manufactured in paradise!

say again
12-31-2017, 10:56 AM
Are people really that egocentric that they need to stand out in appearance to show rank? Guess you wouldnít like it at corporate where everybody just wears business casual. Iíll take the warm wool coat over the stupid WWII bomber jacket which did nothing to cover my nuggets.


I never heard people complain when we wore the blue trench coats. I'm not a fan of the wool coat, but it's no different than wearing the trench in terms of knowing ones rank.

say again
12-31-2017, 11:02 AM
Itís clearly defined in the FOM that flight attendants clean the plane and that pilots do not.

FOM 10.3.25 page 863 and 864

In the past 1.5 years I've only flown with management pilots who done the gloves. A few stand-up guys, but no latex wearers.

Bozo the pilot
12-31-2017, 11:22 AM
[QUOTE=Choppersnplanes;2492497]

ATR DRIVER paints a way different picture of the regionals with brushes manufactured in paradise!

Jetblue is a top-notch regional though HB, I agree with you there. :)

HighFlight
12-31-2017, 11:37 AM
Have you seen Endeavor pay scale? Itís not bad for a Regional but it takes 4 years CPT pay to equal year 2 JetBlue FO pay, and unless you take LGA 200 Cpt. You can be on Reserve forever. I just flew with a 17 year Cpt in MSP who still canít hold a line. As far as flow at Envoy my original class from 2011 still has 4 years till predicted flow. The people who are eligible to flow now just got told they canít till they can staff Cptís. I wouldnít say itís all sunshine and rainbows in the Regional world.

Not quite. Go back few pages and you will see a comparison between the pay. And MSP isn't where new CAs go. 2 yr CA can hold a line in ATL, NY, or maybe DTW (might be 2.5 years in DTW).

Cloud5urfer
12-31-2017, 11:49 AM
Itís clearly defined in the FOM that flight attendants clean the plane and that pilots do not.

FOM 10.3.25 page 863 and 864

I am not a proponent of cleaning the cabin while on duty, the FOM is clear on what our responsibilities are and cleaning isn't one of them.

With that said, the company can set their not rev policies as they see fit. They're not dictated by the FOM. All other employee groups clean when utilizing their free rides. Pilots often don't, and that's what ****es off inflight. As a non rev you're an equal and when guys refuse to help during non rev travel you're acting like you're better than the other work groups.

Bozo the pilot
12-31-2017, 11:51 AM
I am not a proponent of cleaning the cabin while on duty, the FOM is clear on what our responsibilities are and cleaning isn't one of them.

With that said, the company can set their not rev policies as they see fit. They're not dictated by the FOM. All other employee groups clean when utilizing their free rides. Pilots often don't, and that's what ****es off inflight. As a non rev you're an equal and when guys refuse to help during non rev travel you're acting like you're better than the other work groups.

So you like the mandated training and the policy in general eh Cloud?

Rascal
12-31-2017, 11:55 AM
I am not a proponent of cleaning the cabin while on duty, the FOM is clear on what our responsibilities are and cleaning isn't one of them.

With that said, the company can set their not rev policies as they see fit. They're not dictated by the FOM. All other employee groups clean when utilizing their free rides. Pilots often don't, and that's what ****es off inflight. As a non rev you're an equal and when guys refuse to help during non rev travel you're acting like you're better than the other work groups.

Because pilots are better than other work groups. How many years of training/experience does it take to become a JetBlue Flight Attendant?

Cloud5urfer
12-31-2017, 11:59 AM
So you like the mandated training and the policy in general eh Cloud?

I believe that mandated training is under arbitration as we should be paid for it. Company can mandate whatever training they want to (legally) but we need to be paid for it.

I don't particularly like the policy, but I comply with it because it's required and I non rev a lot. Too many pilots mixing up "non rev" cleaning with "on duty" cleaning. The latter doesn't exist and isn't expected.

Cloud5urfer
12-31-2017, 12:03 PM
Because pilots are better than other work groups. How many years of training/experience does it take to become a JetBlue Flight Attendant?

You're compensated accordingly. Doesn't make you better or above them.

We've got pilots here who don't have college degrees, and flight attendants with MBAs neither is better than the other.

Bozo the pilot
12-31-2017, 12:04 PM
I believe that mandated training is under arbitration as we should be pad for it. Company can mandate whatever training they want to (legally) but we need to be paid for it.

I don't particularly like the policy, but I comply with it because it's required and I non rev a lot. Too many pilots mixing up "non rev" cleaning with "on duty" cleaning. The latter doesn't exist and isn't expected.

Oh- because it sounded like you were accusing those who dont clean as elitists. Btw, why doesnt B6 have people to take out the garbage bag in the flight deck?
In the real airlines, that task is not left up to the pilot. For the record, I dont really care, but it shows yet another reason why we are a Punch-n-Judy "major" regional.

Cloud5urfer
12-31-2017, 12:11 PM
Oh- because it sounded like you were accusing those who dont clean as elitists. Btw, why doesnt B6 have people to take out the garbage bag in the flight deck?
In the real airlines, that task is not left up to the pilot. For the record, I dont really care, but it shows yet another reason why we are a Punch-n-Judy "major" regional.

We're not talking about what's expected when you're on duty.

When you snub your nose at the FAs after you just non reved, it's a big F.U. to in-flight. Often after they've extended professional courtesies of their own like free food or alcohol (they're supposed to charge you).

So yes, the guys that think they're better than inflight because they have more experience are elitists.

Bozo the pilot
12-31-2017, 12:26 PM
We're not talking about what's expected when you're on duty.

When you snub your nose at the FAs after you just non reved, it's a big F.U. to in-flight. Often after they've extended professional courtesies of their own like free food or alcohol (they're supposed to charge you).

So yes, the guys that think they're better than inflight because they have more experience are elitists.

So not cleaning is a sign that a non-revving pilot thinks he's better than another; Your point is taken. I dont believe thats what the behavior reveals.
I dont commute so I could care less, but enjoy your gloves.

Cloud5urfer
12-31-2017, 12:36 PM
So not cleaning is a sign that a non-revving pilot thinks he's better than another; Your point is taken. I dont believe thats what the behavior reveals.
I dont commute so I could care less, but enjoy your gloves.

Rascal's comment proved my point. It's a large part of the behavior. There other half I believe to be confusion amongst the pilot group in protesting cleaning while on duty versus while exercising their non rev privileges.

Bozo the pilot
12-31-2017, 12:42 PM
Rascal's comment proved my point. It's a large part of the behavior. There other half I believe to be confusion amongst the pilot group in protesting cleaning while on duty versus while exercising their non rev privileges.

Wrong again/ the FAs are ****ed because they are over worked, under paid and jetblue is too cheap an airline to hire the required employees to clean the plane. Guys like you are why it took so long to get a union.
Blame pilots right cs?
Buy a clue

Cloud5urfer
12-31-2017, 12:54 PM
Wrong again/ the FAs are ****ed because they are over worked, under paid and jetblue is too cheap an airline to hire the required employees to clean the plane. Guys like you are why it took so long to get a union.
Blame pilots right cs?
Buy a clue

The FAs have plenty to be ****ed about. But they definitely get fired up by the guys who are *******s with their "better than thou" attitude.

AMC190
12-31-2017, 01:00 PM
The FAs have plenty to be ****ed about. But they definitely get fired up by the guys who are *******s with their "better than thou" attitude.

Reading your comments make me wanna throw up !!! Please just stop !!!

Armybeatnavy
12-31-2017, 01:57 PM
The dark blue was probably a FA. With the new wool overcoats we all look the same now :rolleyes:

Thank you sir


Essayons

nuball5
12-31-2017, 03:23 PM
Not quite. Go back few pages and you will see a comparison between the pay. And MSP isn't where new CAs go. 2 yr CA can hold a line in ATL, NY, or maybe DTW (might be 2.5 years in DTW).

It's exactly equal. $95/hour. The vast majority of JetBlue pilots are on the Airbus as I mentioned before.

atrdriver
12-31-2017, 05:10 PM
ATR DRIVER paints a way different picture of the regionals with brushes manufactured in paradise!

Glad you could chime in to cover for the company with a strawman argument.

Again. I said there are regionals out there with superior work rules and hotel standards (I know from experience, although I understand why you do not). That very fact is pathetic and speaks volumes. If you can't see that I deeply feel sorry for you. "Just keeps getting better" here, right?

HighFlight
12-31-2017, 08:28 PM
I used the lesser paying plane at both companies to keep it even. Had I ued the higher paying ones, perhaps the salary difference would have gone from 7% higher at JB to 10%. Not sure. Certainly more there, and certainly more as the years move on, as it should be. But I think (and I am sure you would agree with me) that as a major, JBís pay should be nowhere near a regional. Hopefully your management realizes that one of these days.

It's exactly equal. $95/hour. The vast majority of JetBlue pilots are on the Airbus as I mentioned before.

Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 03:15 AM
Reading your comments make me wanna throw up !!! Please just stop !!!

Have to agree.

CaptCoolHand
01-01-2018, 04:19 AM
The FAs have plenty to be ****ed about. But they definitely get fired up by the guys who are *******s with their "better than thou" attitude.

Thereís no ďbetter than thouĒ attitude. You sound like a drunk in a bar looking to pick a fight because youíve got a complex.

Thereís no requirement to clean while on duty. You should help when nonreving. Youíre free to decide your level of assistance in the given situation. This really isnít that hard.

Let the FAs worry about FAs...

FAs who donít like me because of my ďpilotnessĒ or ďPilot privilegeĒ can go push a cart Because I donít give an S.

Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 04:31 AM
Thereís no ďbetter than thouĒ attitude. You sound like a drunk in a bar looking to pick a fight because youíve got a complex.

Thereís no requirement to clean while on duty. You should help when nonreving. Youíre free to decide your level of assistance in the given situation. This really isnít that hard.

Let the FAs worry about FAs...

FAs who donít like me because of my ďpilotnessĒ or ďPilot privilegeĒ can go push a cart Because I donít give an S.

Have to agree.

aldonite7667
01-01-2018, 07:08 AM
If the cart donkeys donít like cleaning they need to speak up and take care of it. Not the pilots.

Std Deviation
01-01-2018, 09:35 AM
I never heard people complain when we wore the blue trench coats. I'm not a fan of the wool coat, but it's no different than wearing the trench in terms of knowing ones rank.

Where it is an issue is when you’re 12 deep in line at AA trying to commute and the incoming captain sees you, pulls you out of line and says we won’t leave without you. Or when you’re trying to check in with the cockpit. Or pushing past people at security. Without the epaulets and the salient, “I’m a pilot,” it looks like I’m a mutual fund manager or an insurance salesman trying to barge past the FAs. Can I interest you in some whole life insurance to protect your family from catastrophe? The wool coat is really great when preflighting in the rain. Wicks the rain right through to your uniform shirt. Awesome. Even the trench coat had a, “yep, that’s a crewmember,” look.

atrdriver
01-01-2018, 09:49 AM
Where it is an issue is when youíre 12 deep in line at AA trying to commute and the incoming captain sees you, pulls you out of line and says we wonít leave without you. Or when youíre trying to check in with the cockpit. Or pushing past people at security. Without the epaulets and the salient, ďIím a pilot,Ē it looks like Iím a mutual fund manager or an insurance salesman trying to barge past the FAs. Can I interest you in some whole life insurance to protect your family from catastrophe? The wool coat is really great when preflighting in the rain. Wicks the rain right through to your uniform shirt. Awesome. Even the trench coat had a, ďyep, thatís a crewmember,Ē look.

I think the trench coat has more of a child molester/flasher/fake watch peddler look :confused:

Anyhow, take off the overcoat indoors and problem solved.

say again
01-01-2018, 09:55 AM
Where it is an issue is when youíre 12 deep in line at AA trying to commute and the incoming captain sees you, pulls you out of line and says we wonít leave without you. Or when youíre trying to check in with the cockpit. Or pushing past people at security. Without the epaulets and the salient, ďIím a pilot,Ē it looks like Iím a mutual fund manager or an insurance salesman trying to barge past the FAs. Can I interest you in some whole life insurance to protect your family from catastrophe? The wool coat is really great when preflighting in the rain. Wicks the rain right through to your uniform shirt. Awesome. Even the trench coat had a, ďyep, thatís a crewmember,Ē look.

I wonder if people that jumpseat out of uniform have the same issues as you? If I found it to be an issue I'd simply take of my coat. No need for it while indoors anyway. You really don't have many other options but to deal with what we have now.

And yes, the coats suck in the rain.

Std Deviation
01-01-2018, 10:19 AM
I wonder if people that jumpseat out of uniform have the same issues as you? If I found it to be an issue I'd simply take of my coat. No need for it while indoors anyway. You really don't have many other options but to deal with what we have now.

And yes, the coats suck in the rain.

In three years commuting out of DFW I’ve never seen anyone commute out of uniform in the cockpit. In fact, I actually saw an AA captain refuse an out of uniform off line pilot from flying in the cockpit. I’m upfront about 70% of the time.

But yes, I take the coat off at DFW and violate the uniform policy because who cares when out of base. Or should I drag both the blazer and the wool coat on a trip that goes through Detroit and San Juan in the winter? There are times when it’s easier to just look like a pilot. I can practice fine fashion on my days off (unlikely for me because we all just wear boots and Wrangers here in TX but if looking like a GQ model in all male Vegas review is someone’s thing...that’s their prerogative. And of course if you fancy a bench press now and then you need a full 2 sizes larger than your blazer to get your shoulders in without ripping out the seams) :cool:

slimothy
01-01-2018, 11:57 AM
In three years commuting out of DFW Iíve never seen anyone commute out of uniform in the cockpit. In fact, I actually saw an AA captain refuse an out of uniform off line pilot from flying in the cockpit. Iím upfront about 70% of the time.

But yes, I take the coat off at DFW and violate the uniform policy because who cares when out of base. Or should I drag both the blazer and the wool coat on a trip that goes through Detroit and San Juan in the winter? There are times when itís easier to just look like a pilot. I can practice fine fashion on my days off (unlikely for me because we all just wear boots and Wrangers here in TX but if looking like a GQ model in all male Vegas review is someoneís thing...thatís their prerogative. And of course if you fancy a bench press now and then you need a full 2 sizes larger than your blazer to get your shoulders in without ripping out the seams) :cool:

I used to commute up front in civvies all the time, once even in jeans [GASP].

Bozo the pilot
01-01-2018, 12:00 PM
Reading your comments make me wanna throw up !!! Please just stop !!!

He cant help it- he's either management or a juicer the way he thinks.
Read some of his earlier pro-company defense arguments. :rolleyes:

N311JB
01-01-2018, 12:40 PM
Good to see we're still b*tching about uniforms and cleaning. We're 3years in team, and its gonna get worse. Wear the uniform, cross your seatbelt and carry on. We're losing thousands of dollars a day, each of us, and we're squabbling about nonsense.

N311JB
01-01-2018, 12:47 PM
Where it is an issue is when youíre 12 deep in line at AA trying to commute and the incoming captain sees you, pulls you out of line and says we wonít leave without you. Or when youíre trying to check in with the cockpit. Or pushing past people at security. Without the epaulets and the salient, ďIím a pilot,Ē it looks like Iím a mutual fund manager or an insurance salesman trying to barge past the FAs. Can I interest you in some whole life insurance to protect your family from catastrophe? The wool coat is really great when preflighting in the rain. Wicks the rain right through to your uniform shirt. Awesome. Even the trench coat had a, ďyep, thatís a crewmember,Ē look.
Sounds like an ego thing. Granted I think we should keep the leather. But I think everyone is aware of our profession that needs to know, by looking at our crew bag seeing the KCM badge. Just introduce yourself as a "Pilot for Jetblue" works for me. And make sure you use Kevin Hart's advice.
Say it with your chest!

hilltopflyer
01-01-2018, 01:31 PM
Thereís no ďbetter than thouĒ attitude. You sound like a drunk in a bar looking to pick a fight because youíve got a complex.

Thereís no requirement to clean while on duty. You should help when nonreving. Youíre free to decide your level of assistance in the given situation. This really isnít that hard.

Let the FAs worry about FAs...

FAs who donít like me because of my ďpilotnessĒ or ďPilot privilegeĒ can go push a cart Because I donít give an S.

Amen. With the new union, fa's can negotiate to not clean. I don't think they should but they get paid for it. When I non rev I do my seat and no others. That is me helping. I don't care about anything they think about me, I'm doing my responsibility with non revving. No one can say anything if you do that. It's really simple.

Cloud5urfer
01-01-2018, 02:26 PM
Thereís no ďbetter than thouĒ attitude. You sound like a drunk in a bar looking to pick a fight because youíve got a complex.

Thereís no requirement to clean while on duty. You should help when nonreving. Youíre free to decide your level of assistance in the given situation. This really isnít that hard.

Let the FAs worry about FAs...

FAs who donít like me because of my ďpilotnessĒ or ďPilot privilegeĒ can go push a cart Because I donít give an S.

You and I said the exact same thing, you should be helping if you non rev. Not expected on duty. I've seen plenty of comments from some on here, not you, that seem to confuse the two then take the stance of "No I'm not helping ever regardless of the situation, including as a non rev."

That is the situation I was trying to describe that has further created a divide among the employee groups (one of many).

CaptCoolHand
01-01-2018, 02:42 PM
You and I said the exact same thing, you should be helping if you non rev. Not expected on duty. I've seen plenty of comments from some on here, not you, that seem to confuse the two then take the stance of "No I'm not helping ever regardless of the situation, including as a non rev."

That is the situation I was trying to describe that has further created a divide among the employee groups (one of many).

I agree. My statement was blanket. Seems we have to hash this out every few months.

SEPfield
01-01-2018, 07:05 PM
I used to commute up front in civvies all the time, once even in jeans [GASP].

What?! In Jeans?!

Lol I had a Jetblue captain get all uptight with me when I asked to ride in the back in jeans and a polo.
Probably 1 of the top 3 reasons I havenít applied

Southerner
01-01-2018, 07:09 PM
What?! In Jeans?!



Lol I had a Jetblue captain get all uptight with me when I asked to ride in the back in jeans and a polo.

Probably 1 of the top 3 reasons I havenít applied



I guess the days of expecting policies to actually mean something are over... [emoji849]

You can't jumpseat on another airline in jeans, and get defensive when someone gives you crap for breaking a policy. Some guys won't care, some will. Hell, I probably wouldn't say a word. But if someone does want to uphold the standard, that's on you, not him.

Don't apply. We don't want you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

slimothy
01-01-2018, 07:13 PM
I guess the days of expecting policies to actually mean something are over... [emoji849]

You can't jumpseat on another airline in jeans, and get defensive when someone gives you crap for breaking a policy.

Don't apply. We don't want you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We have a policy against riding in back in jeans? When I rode up front it was at the CAís invite because he didnít want to leave me behind.

Apply if you want, but prospects are better elsewhere. Just donít tell Southerner that.

Southerner
01-01-2018, 07:31 PM
We have a policy against riding in back in jeans? When I rode up front it was at the CAís invite because he didnít want to leave me behind.



Apply if you want, but prospects are better elsewhere. Just donít tell Southerner that.



If jumpseating, you have to be business casual. I'm assuming since he's OAL that he was jumpseating. If not, (ZED) my apologies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

slimothy
01-01-2018, 08:28 PM
If jumpseating, you have to be business casual. I'm assuming since he's OAL that he was jumpseating. If not, (ZED) my apologies.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He said he was denied a ďride in the back.Ē While technically ďjumpseatingĒ the business casual rule, as I understand it, is only for flight deck access.

MasterOfPuppets
01-01-2018, 08:32 PM
In three years commuting out of DFW Iíve never seen anyone commute out of uniform in the cockpit. In fact, I actually saw an AA captain refuse an out of uniform off line pilot from flying in the cockpit. Iím upfront about 70% of the time.

But yes, I take the coat off at DFW and violate the uniform policy because who cares when out of base. Or should I drag both the blazer and the wool coat on a trip that goes through Detroit and San Juan in the winter? There are times when itís easier to just look like a pilot. I can practice fine fashion on my days off (unlikely for me because we all just wear boots and Wrangers here in TX but if looking like a GQ model in all male Vegas review is someoneís thing...thatís their prerogative. And of course if you fancy a bench press now and then you need a full 2 sizes larger than your blazer to get your shoulders in without ripping out the seams) :cool:

I jumpseat out of uniform every time I go to and from work.

rvr1800
01-01-2018, 08:46 PM
He said he was denied a “ride in the back.” While technically “jumpseating” the business casual rule, as I understand it, is only for flight deck access.

If you’re riding in the back on your own airline(Jetblue) then you are correct. If you’re showing up to another airline with jeans on, you shouldn’t be. Regardless if you’re riding in the cockpit or the back.

Count Dracula
01-01-2018, 08:56 PM
Is it that difficult to wear business casual to JS? I always commute offline out of uniform and never have an issue. I mean if you show up in blue jeans, what are you expecting? A test of the Captainís authority? Itís obvious some of the individuals on here were not raised by an old school WW2 vet. Is this not just plain common sense?


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Southerner
01-01-2018, 09:14 PM
He said he was denied a ďride in the back.Ē While technically ďjumpseatingĒ the business casual rule, as I understand it, is only for flight deck access.



Don't put a captain in the position of having to enforce a policy like that. If you do, and he does, it isn't the captain who was in the wrong.

BTW--- it's funny to me that so many of you idolize Delta, but sure don't seem to fit their culture when you talk about stuff like this. I dare you to show up to a Delta flight in jeans and expect to get a cabin seat while jumpseating. That would not be tolerated over there by most any captain.


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BeatNavy
01-01-2018, 10:13 PM
Don't put a captain in the position of having to enforce a policy like that. If you do, and he does, it isn't the captain who was in the wrong.

BTW--- it's funny to me that so many of you idolize Delta, but sure don't seem to fit their culture when you talk about stuff like this. I dare you to show up to a Delta flight in jeans and expect to get a cabin seat while jumpseating. That would not be tolerated over there by most any captain.


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I know you used Delta as your example here, but at my last airline I had a UAL 747 captain show up to our jumpseat in jeans, tennis shoes, and a hawaiian shirt. Our captain didn't care and it was a non-issue. I would never do it and I think it's wrong, and IAW our FOM probably wouldn't allow it on my flight deck at JB if I were a CA. but it's not just JetBlue deviants who think its ok.

Southerner
01-01-2018, 10:26 PM
I know you used Delta as your example here, but at my last airline I had a UAL 747 captain show up to our jumpseat in jeans, tennis shoes, and a hawaiian shirt. Our captain didn't care and it was a non-issue. I would never do it and I think it's wrong, and IAW our FOM probably wouldn't allow it on my flight deck at JB if I were a CA. but it's not just JetBlue deviants who think its ok.



Never said it was just here. There's always a few at any airline. And maybe there's a good reason too. Maybe he got bad family news, and rushed to the airport last second to go see the family, etc.


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Std Deviation
01-02-2018, 01:02 PM
Don't put a captain in the position of having to enforce a policy like that. If you do, and he does, it isn't the captain who was in the wrong.

BTW--- it's funny to me that so many of you idolize Delta, but sure don't seem to fit their culture when you talk about stuff like this. I dare you to show up to a Delta flight in jeans and expect to get a cabin seat while jumpseating. That would not be tolerated over there by most any captain.


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Very relevant because a senior AA captain that said his wife works in Manhattan finance had it on good authority Delta is buying us soon...:p See what I endure up front. Well that and classic US Air and America West guys trying to remain cordial and not kill each other.:eek:

Ted Striker
01-02-2018, 01:18 PM
Anyone know if the capital expenditure expensing provision in the new tax bill applies to mergers and acquisitions?

Aquaticus
01-02-2018, 01:30 PM
Itís clearly defined in the FOM that flight attendants clean the plane and that pilots do not.

FOM 10.3.25 page 863 and 864
When I was at JetBlue pilots would routinely grab gloves and go in the back while passengers were still deplaning. One check airman even went as far as asking for gloves to be stored in the flight deck. The fact is that the flight attendants got used to the pilots helping out and it was expected at one point in time. It has lead to labor strife and resentment between work groups which is managements distraction. Do you clean up on other airlines when non-revving? No because they have cleaners like any real airline should. If all pilots stopped cleaning completely it would be the norm. Instead you are still going to have the handful of go getters who make us look like idiots.
You aren't being an elitest pig looking down on flight attendants... You are a pilot and you worked damn hard to get to where you are. Snot rags in seat backs isn't just beneath you it is absurd to even assume you would clean. It is also beneath the flight attendants but that is ultimately their fight. This has been an issue at JetBlue for at least the last decade and yet no other airlines have this ambiguity and constant chafing of labor groups over this issue.

Bozo the pilot
01-02-2018, 04:25 PM
When I was at JetBlue pilots would routinely grab gloves and go in the back while passengers were still deplaning. One check airman even went as far as asking for gloves to be stored in the flight deck. The fact is that the flight attendants got used to the pilots helping out and it was expected at one point in time. It has lead to labor strife and resentment between work groups which is managements distraction. Do you clean up on other airlines when non-revving? No because they have cleaners like any real airline should. If all pilots stopped cleaning completely it would be the norm. Instead you are still going to have the handful of go getters who make us look like idiots.
You aren't being an elitest pig looking down on flight attendants... You are a pilot and you worked damn hard to get to where you are. Snot rags in seat backs isn't just beneath you it is absurd to even assume you would clean. It is also beneath the flight attendants but that is ultimately their fight. This has been an issue at JetBlue for at least the last decade and yet no other airlines have this ambiguity and constant chafing of labor groups over this issue.

Jetblue=mickey mouse op.

Xtreme87
01-02-2018, 05:05 PM
Jetblue=mickey mouse op.

You know, this made me think about how the company made FAís show up to the plane 5 minutes before the pilots, therefore having to take an earlier van. Since they canít leagally make the pilots show up to work earlier without adjusting duty periods, they make the FAís show up earlier and schedule the van earlier. Only problem is there is often times only ONE VAN scheduled, so therefore you wind up going earlier too. This new scheme definitely paid off, judging by our awesome 69% on time performance. THAT is the definition of mickey mouse. Never heard of such a thing in the history of airlines.

Bozo the pilot
01-02-2018, 05:35 PM
You know, this made me think about how the company made FAís show up to the plane 5 minutes before the pilots, therefore having to take an earlier van. Since they canít leagally make the pilots show up to work earlier without adjusting duty periods, they make the FAís show up earlier and schedule the van earlier. Only problem is there is often times only ONE VAN scheduled, so therefore you wind up going earlier too. This new scheme definitely paid off, judging by our awesome 69% on time performance. THAT is the definition of mickey mouse. Never heard of such a thing in the history of airlines.

Well its a unique culture:rolleyes:
So tired of the bs here. Where are all the juicers? Was that last email a wake up call to the fact that the company is not going to budge?
CBA 2020 has a nice ring to it.

IQuitEagle
01-02-2018, 06:42 PM
You know, this made me think about how the company made FAís show up to the plane 5 minutes before the pilots, therefore having to take an earlier van. Since they canít leagally make the pilots show up to work earlier without adjusting duty periods, they make the FAís show up earlier and schedule the van earlier. Only problem is there is often times only ONE VAN scheduled, so therefore you wind up going earlier too. This new scheme definitely paid off, judging by our awesome 69% on time performance. THAT is the definition of mickey mouse. Never heard of such a thing in the history of airlines.

My question in reading this is why are pilots taking an earlier van? If the company canít schedule or choose a hotel which can offer transportation times which fit with your show time, then that is the companyís problem, not pilots. You all should just take the next van. Problem solved. Reminds me of the morons that took early vans and showed at the gate before show time, on min rest overnights. Nothing like willfully violating rest requirements to try and get that flight out on time...

Bozo the pilot
01-02-2018, 06:49 PM
My question in reading this is why are pilots taking an earlier van? If the company canít schedule or choose a hotel which can offer transportation times which fit with your show time, then that is the companyís problem, not pilots. You all should just take the next van. Problem solved. Reminds me of the morons that took early vans and showed at the gate before show time, on min rest overnights. Nothing like willfully violating rest requirements to try and get that flight out on time...

I hear what youíre saying but the point is that B6 is run like a 135 fly-by-night 5hit show. Get it?

Xtreme87
01-02-2018, 06:57 PM
My question in reading this is why are pilots taking an earlier van? If the company canít schedule or choose a hotel which can offer transportation times which fit with your show time, then that is the companyís problem, not pilots. You all should just take the next van. Problem solved. Reminds me of the morons that took early vans and showed at the gate before show time, on min rest overnights. Nothing like willfully violating rest requirements to try and get that flight out on time...

There are ways around it ofcourse. My point wasnít why whether or not some people decide to show up early, itís the fact that the company can even conceive such an idea think we will all just comply and not even notice. Mind boggling. The lengths to which they will go to save a penny is astounding. Which usually winds up back firing in the long run.

P-3Bubba
01-03-2018, 02:37 PM
FAís are upset that the pilots wonít ride the early van. They expect youíll stay together as a team. That translates into attitude for the day and now no one is happy. Then Inflight blames the pilots for the culture getting diluted.

Jblue is the epicenter of finger pointing. Itís easy to do when there are a thousand middle managers and VPís of nothing. Just throw something at the wall and hope it sticks. Cabin refresh? 165 seat A320ís? Sharklets? Carts? 5 minutes early for inflight? Boarding without pilots? Itís all led to a $310,000,000 loss in 2017 delays. Thatís a stunning number. Heads should roll.

Anyone heard of planning software? Take a look at mid-day delays. Look at MCO BUF RDU. Clockwork. Not D0. Something else is at work. What is it? Thatís where you figure it out and fix it. Take a look at the Cush 2 day trips on Jan 31st in the bid. Anything significant about Jan 31? Picketing in JFK. IF THEY CAN PLAN THAT THEN THEY CAN FIX SYSTEMATIC MID-DAY DLEAYS!!!!! Invest in a new software package. Spend big. $10mil. Save $310mil. Genius.

Weíre moving into a new realm as an airline. The problem is we have no one whoís manning the helm. No direction. No goals. No timeline and goal gates. Just vacant rumors and the same nonsense thatís been rolling for years. Oh yeah, no CBA. I like the truthful and sobering comment that we just lost 3% Jan 1, 2018.

-Bubs

Bluedriver
01-03-2018, 09:09 PM
FAís are upset that the pilots wonít ride the early van. They expect youíll stay together as a team. That translates into attitude for the day and now no one is happy. Then Inflight blames the pilots for the culture getting diluted.

Jblue is the epicenter of finger pointing. Itís easy to do when there are a thousand middle managers and VPís of nothing. Just throw something at the wall and hope it sticks. Cabin refresh? 165 seat A320ís? Sharklets? Carts? 5 minutes early for inflight? Boarding without pilots? Itís all led to a $310,000,000 loss in 2017 delays. Thatís a stunning number. Heads should roll.

Anyone heard of planning software? Take a look at mid-day delays. Look at MCO BUF RDU. Clockwork. Not D0. Something else is at work. What is it? Thatís where you figure it out and fix it. Take a look at the Cush 2 day trips on Jan 31st in the bid. Anything significant about Jan 31? Picketing in JFK. IF THEY CAN PLAN THAT THEN THEY CAN FIX SYSTEMATIC MID-DAY DLEAYS!!!!! Invest in a new software package. Spend big. $10mil. Save $310mil. Genius.

Weíre moving into a new realm as an airline. The problem is we have no one whoís manning the helm. No direction. No goals. No timeline and goal gates. Just vacant rumors and the same nonsense thatís been rolling for years. Oh yeah, no CBA. I like the truthful and sobering comment that we just lost 3% Jan 1, 2018.

-Bubs

Well said Bub's.

PasserOGas
01-04-2018, 01:03 AM
FAís are upset that the pilots wonít ride the early van. They expect youíll stay together as a team. That translates into attitude for the day and now no one is happy. Then Inflight blames the pilots for the culture getting diluted.

Jblue is the epicenter of finger pointing. Itís easy to do when there are a thousand middle managers and VPís of nothing. Just throw something at the wall and hope it sticks. Cabin refresh? 165 seat A320ís? Sharklets? Carts? 5 minutes early for inflight? Boarding without pilots? Itís all led to a $310,000,000 loss in 2017 delays. Thatís a stunning number. Heads should roll.

Anyone heard of planning software? Take a look at mid-day delays. Look at MCO BUF RDU. Clockwork. Not D0. Something else is at work. What is it? Thatís where you figure it out and fix it. Take a look at the Cush 2 day trips on Jan 31st in the bid. Anything significant about Jan 31? Picketing in JFK. IF THEY CAN PLAN THAT THEN THEY CAN FIX SYSTEMATIC MID-DAY DLEAYS!!!!! Invest in a new software package. Spend big. $10mil. Save $310mil. Genius.

Weíre moving into a new realm as an airline. The problem is we have no one whoís manning the helm. No direction. No goals. No timeline and goal gates. Just vacant rumors and the same nonsense thatís been rolling for years. Oh yeah, no CBA. I like the truthful and sobering comment that we just lost 3% Jan 1, 2018.

-Bubs

Yeah, but are other airlines buying WIDEBODIES and going to EUROPE and GROWING at a blistering 5%/year?

Chicken Taco
01-04-2018, 05:33 AM
Anyone heard of planning software? Take a look at mid-day delays. Look at MCO BUF RDU. Clockwork. Not D0. Something else is at work. What is it? Thatís where you figure it out and fix it. Take a look at the Cush 2 day trips on Jan 31st in the bid. Anything significant about Jan 31? Picketing in JFK. IF THEY CAN PLAN THAT THEN THEY CAN FIX SYSTEMATIC MID-DAY DLEAYS!!!!! Invest in a new software package. Spend big. $10mil. Save $310mil. Genius.

Weíre moving into a new realm as an airline. The problem is we have no one whoís manning the helm. No direction. No goals. No timeline and goal gates. Just vacant rumors and the same nonsense thatís been rolling for years. Oh yeah, no CBA. I like the truthful and sobering comment that we just lost 3% Jan 1, 2018.

-Bubs

No new planning package required. We have the best aircraft and crew routing system out there and pay through the nose for it. It's a garbage in-garbage out situation. As long as aircraft are routed with 35-40 minute turns, front and back end crews are split, and they permit mid-day crew/aircraft swaps in the planning solution the delays will continue. We can have a 90% or better fleet launch but have half of the hulls behind schedule by noon because the delays continue to cascade throughout the system.

Bluedriver
01-04-2018, 07:06 AM
Yeah, but are other airlines buying WIDEBODIES and going to EUROPE and GROWING at a blistering 5%/year?

Um, yes. Yes they are. We are not!

SEPfield
01-04-2018, 09:09 AM
I guess the days of expecting policies to actually mean something are over... [emoji849]

You can't jumpseat on another airline in jeans, and get defensive when someone gives you crap for breaking a policy. Some guys won't care, some will. Hell, I probably wouldn't say a word. But if someone does want to uphold the standard, that's on you, not him.

Don't apply. We don't want you.


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Disregard. Unprofessional response.

Armybeatnavy
01-04-2018, 09:11 AM
Donít worry I wonít. Now donít you have an airplane to clean.

JanitorBlue.

With all due respect this is uncalled for man.


Essayons

SEPfield
01-04-2018, 09:15 AM
With all due respect this is uncalled for man.


Essayons

Agreed and edited.

My apologies. Iíll stay off your thread.

slimothy
01-04-2018, 09:33 AM
With all due respect this is uncalled for man.


Essayons

Nah. It was perfect.

Bozo the pilot
01-04-2018, 10:52 AM
Agreed and edited.

My apologies. Iíll stay off your thread.

I liked it- some guys here need to hear the hard truth from those outside the bubble.

Bluedriver
01-04-2018, 10:53 AM
With all due respect this is uncalled for man.


Essayons

Not uncalled for at all. I GUARANTEE he's a Pilot-Janitor. Even if he denies it.

BeatNavy
01-04-2018, 01:57 PM
With all due respect this is uncalled for man.


Essayons

Itís called for. As an outsider, itís hard to understand.

Armybeatnavy
01-04-2018, 03:47 PM
Itís called for. As an outsider, itís hard to understand.

I hope I am not disrespecting any one here but from what I have seen in the military and civilian this is how bad names are form. But as an outsider itís hard to understand. I just donít want to see JetBlue pilots known as blue janitors in the future.



Essayons

slimothy
01-04-2018, 03:50 PM
I hope I am not disrespecting any one here but from what I have seen in the military and civilian this is how bad names are form. But as an outsider itís hard to understand. I just donít want to see JetBlue pilots known as blue janitors in the future.



Essayons

Itís cool man, you donít want to roll in on another airlineís board and look like a troll. I didnít realize Army guys understood the finer points of tact. ;)