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View Full Version : So Payne wants a timeline.


Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 07:39 AM
So Payne wants a timeline. Well Payne, the company controls the timeline, and they will not settle a contract that costs them hundreds of millions of dollars and restricts their operations with peer standard work rules until conditions on the ground change or they see a business need to do so.

Right now they get almost everything they want from us pilots at Walmart prices. It doesn't matter that we are awash in cash and have at or near industry leading margins. It doesn't matter that closing this contract is the right or moral thing to do. They will not do it until they are no longer getting almost everything they want from us at the current rates. Or the Union campaign creates a business need to finish it or Wall Street sees a reason.

None of those things are even close to happening right now. There has always been plenty of information available to know that Summer 2017, or Fall 2017, or "surely done by year end 2017" was NEVER going to happen. But that doesn't mean there is enough information to predict when it will get finished and I'm not dumb enough to try.

Our management has been less blatant and more calculating than Spirit or Frontier, but I believe you will see us trending that direction. Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong, I'm fully expecting it from you and the other usual suspects.

After all this negotiating in "good faith" that you guys keep telling me about, the company isn't even offering us pay rates "close" to Alaska. And Alaska rates are a non-starter NO to our union and our pilots (maybe not you).

So I suggest you take a second look at how things are going at Spirit and Frontier. As I said, our management will be more calculating and less blatant, but beyond that start understanding there are going to be more similarities than you thought.

Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me I'm just being negative. Tell me I'm not reading the Union emails or talking to my union reps.

I've heard it all before, yet the contract isn't even CLOSE to being done.


atrdriver
01-01-2018, 07:54 AM
Not sure this post is helpful as it is borderline negotiating in public.

It's fair to air grievances and discuss how far behind our peers we are (and it's unfair to try to minimize these shortcomings as a couple guys in particular do here on a constant basis). But I don't think we should be discussing what we are or are not willing to settle for or the fact that some expect management to continue drag their feet.....they'd be happy to oblige.

What does it matter if someone thinks the contract is close or is not close? As long as they conduct themselves in a manner consistent with being in a labor dispute, it's honestly irrelevant. imho.

Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 08:12 AM
Because they DON'T! Quite the opposite for many.


say again
01-01-2018, 08:23 AM
Not sure this post is helpful as it is borderline negotiating in public.

It's fair to air grievances and discuss how far behind our peers we are (and it's unfair to try to minimize these shortcomings as a couple guys in particular do here on a constant basis). But I don't think we should be discussing what we are or are not willing to settle for or the fact that some expect management to continue drag their feet.....they'd be happy to oblige.

What does it matter if someone thinks the contract is close or is not close? As long as they conduct themselves in a manner consistent with being in a labor dispute, it's honestly irrelevant. imho.

I'll have to agree with this.

Bluedriver, what is your point in all this? You've become a broken record.

captsurf
01-01-2018, 09:34 AM
I should probably put a disclaimer that this post is in no way of support of the company.

The latest offer the company made was during the 10/31, 11/1, 11/2 mediated session. To quote the union, it was a “step in the right direction” (but was not our definition of market rate). At that time, there was no “Alaska pay.” The Alaska/Virgin arbitration award came out during that mediated session so obviously the company wouldn’t have been prepared to do a proper cost analysis and make an offer even close during that session. There has since yet to be another mediated session. The next one on the books was 1/8 but we all know that’s been cancelled. There have been unmediated sessions, but no way is the company going to make a pay proposal outside of mediation. To quote the union in their last update, “management has not offered Alaska pay or anything close to it.” Well, yea no ****. They haven’t had the chance to.

I’m not saying they will offer anything reasonable next session. I’m not saying they won’t. Do I think we are in a labor dispute? Yes. Has the union correspondence been mostly positive? Yes. Was the last update a significant change in tone? Yes. But I wouldn’t say the sky is falling purely on that one message alone. I will say that we still have a long way to go though... I think the next update after the 1/22-1/26 mediation session will be a huge turning point for us, either good or bad.


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Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 09:52 AM
Captsurf, it makes no difference whether or not the Alaska award was known prior to the last offer.

Delta, United, American and Southwest were all WELL KNOWN at the time they made their offer. Spirit, Frontier and Alaska at the time they made their offer to us were nothing more than BAD-DATA. Spirit and Frontier are VERY old contracts in end-game negotiations subject to change anytime. Alaska's contract is also not entirely modern and was under Arbitration, so still not a good data-point.

The current contracts of DL, UAL, AA and SWA are where the market is today for Airbus pilots. It was well know to JB management and yet they still offered us rates well short of Alaska's arbitration award.

We are far apart.

captsurf
01-01-2018, 10:05 AM
Captsurf, it makes no difference whether or not the Alaska award was known prior to the last offer.



Delta, United, American and Southwest were all WELL KNOWN at the time they made their offer. Spirit, Frontier and Alaska at the time they made their offer to us were nothing more than BAD-DATA. Spirit and Frontier are VERY old contracts in end-game negotiations subject to change anytime. Alaska's contract is also not entirely modern and was under Arbitration, so still not a good data-point.



The current contracts of DL, UAL, AA and SWA are where the market is today for Airbus pilots. It was well know to JB management and yet they still offered us rates well short of Alaska's arbitration award.



We are far apart.



Hey man I completely agree. Sorry if that wasn’t clear. Frontier/Spirit are outliers. Alls I was saying was that up until that point, the company’s definition of “market rate” was much different than it is now. But therein lies the problem, how far apart the two “market rates” are.

All I was saying was this:

10/31 -Mediated session. Company makes better but still low-ball offer
10/31- Alaska/Virgin award
11/2- Negotiations update email. Everyone says “alright. Not great but a step in the right direction. Let’s see if they at least come up to Alaska next time.”
(No more sessions)
12/27- Negotiations update email. Everyone says “omg! They won’t even offer Alaska! Time to burn it down!”

I think the last email helped to bring the hopefuls back down to the reality that we still have along tough road ahead.
I’m just basing my thoughts on progress on the latest update (11/2) following the latest session. Like I said, end of January will be a crucial turning point. But in my eyes, time for the company to nut up or shut up.


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Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 10:11 AM
Yep, totally agree. My hopes are not high, but it will be telling.

I want to be proven wrong of course!

captsurf
01-01-2018, 10:19 AM
“New year, new me,” -not my paycheck


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CaptCoolHand
01-01-2018, 10:25 AM
This thread should die... a quick death.

Please

Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 11:31 AM
This thread should die... a quick death.

Please

Payne wanted an answer from me to the timeline. This is my answer. Don't like it, don't read or comment.

jtrain609
01-01-2018, 11:46 AM
Payne wanted an answer from me to the timeline. This is my answer. Don't like it, don't read or comment.

You're working against us for the sole purpose of feeding your ego.

The union keeps telling us to build unity and you're doing the opposite.

slimothy
01-01-2018, 11:47 AM
I'll have to agree with this.

Bluedriver, what is your point in all this? You've become a broken record.

Every time he sees your screen name he repeats himself.

Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 11:50 AM
You're working against us for the sole purpose of feeding your ego.

The union keeps telling us to build unity and you're doing the opposite.

They want unity around a labor dispute. Not unity around the "companies negotiating in good faith, just give them more time" crowd.

jtrain609
01-01-2018, 11:53 AM
They want unity around a labor dispute. Not unity around the "companies negotiating in good faith, just give them more time" crowd.

My MEC speaks for me.

You speak for yourself.

Bozo the pilot
01-01-2018, 11:57 AM
You're working against us for the sole purpose of feeding your ego.

The union keeps telling us to build unity and you're doing the opposite.

No he isn't.
There is already a line between the little "helpers" in this airline and the guys who know that we work for a dishonest, out of touch company.
The latest email from RH completely ignores the problems that are on the horizon for B6 if a TA is not presented in the next 6 months. Picketing probably does nothing to move the needle, so as Ive said ad nauseam, we need a strike vote with a high % in favor and B6 must experience a staffing issue- Everything else is moot.
B6 must feel pain in order to change-like any organism.

Bluedriver
01-01-2018, 12:04 PM
My MEC speaks for me.

You speak for yourself.

Wrong Juicebox. Our MEC is rapidly escalating an information campaign with media that paints a certain company in a very bad light. At the same time they have asked us to retweet and forward those messages to the general public. They have also told us and the general public that we are far apart at the table and that JetBlue is stalling a contract that they can well afford.

Any of that message sound familiar? Like a certain broken record?

On. The. Other. Hand. You have been trying to suppress those same sentiments on this board for some time, and you're doing it again now.

Otterbox
01-01-2018, 12:08 PM
12/27- Negotiations update email. Everyone says “omg!... Time to burn it down!”


It’s about time the JetBlue pilot group started to get energized over lack of progress towards a contract. With as divided and docile as the group as been it’ll be 2021 before a contract unless management starts to feel pressure.

Bozo the pilot
01-01-2018, 12:20 PM
It’s about time the JetBlue pilot group started to get energized over lack of progress towards a contract. With as divided and docile as the group as been it’ll be 2021 before a contract unless management starts to feel pressure.

Totally agree- Juicers should wake tf up and realize how long it will be before a CBA. Guys actually believed that we would have a TA by today.
Im not confident about New Years day 2019, not to mention how long it would take to staff any real reserve rules.
Pathetic here right now.

cf105
01-01-2018, 04:41 PM
...At the same time they have asked us to retweet and forward those messages to the general public. They have also told us and the general public that we are far apart at the table and that JetBlue is stalling a contract that they can well afford...

"general public" LOL! General Public is definitely going to feel bad for us pilots not being paid enough for our 15 days a month average working days. General Public goes to work every day, minimum 8 to 5, minimum 5-6 days a week, every week, with an average income of $56K/year. Do you really think the "general public" is going to feel bad for pilots? It's funny.

Xtreme87
01-01-2018, 04:50 PM
"general public" LOL! General Public is definitely going to feel bad for us pilots not being paid enough for our 15 days a month average working days. General Public goes to work every day, minimum 8 to 5, minimum 5-6 days a week, every week, with an average income of $56K/year. Do you really think the "general public" is going to feel bad for pilots? It's funny.

Well it can also work for the potential candidate, which we should work harder to target, even more than our customers. They need a truth campaign about what life is like at JB. When people stop applying here, it will bring us a contract within a few weeks/months.

Southerner
01-01-2018, 05:05 PM
Well it can also work for the potential candidate, which we should work harder to target, even more than our customers. They need a truth campaign about what life is like at JB. When people stop applying here, it will bring us a contract within a few weeks/months.



Yeah. It's SO terrible here. [emoji849]


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citxls
01-01-2018, 05:41 PM
After 1 day our Unions Facebook message received 23,600 likes and a crap ton of shares. Word is getting out, stop negotiating on the forums...

Bluedriver
01-02-2018, 06:46 AM
"general public" LOL! General Public is definitely going to feel bad for us pilots not being paid enough for our 15 days a month average working days. General Public goes to work every day, minimum 8 to 5, minimum 5-6 days a week, every week, with an average income of $56K/year. Do you really think the "general public" is going to feel bad for pilots? It's funny.

I don't care what you think, only what my union thinks.

Bluedriver
01-02-2018, 06:49 AM
Yeah. It's SO terrible here. [emoji849]


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And then the village idiot arrives to tell JetBlue how great it is. You must not have noticed the strong and common theme among those who answered the "for those who left JetBlue" thread.

According to those who have worked at JB and a REAL major, it really is that much better Juicebox.

cf105
01-02-2018, 07:07 AM
Well it can also work for the potential candidate, which we should work harder to target, even more than our customers. They need a truth campaign about what life is like at JB. When people stop applying here, it will bring us a contract within a few weeks/months.

I see, and understand, your point about how horrible life at Jb is, by as horrible as it is, as so poorly paid as you are and so mistreated, it will still be better than Spirit pay and better than all the “regionals” combined, so as bad as it sounds it’s still golden for the future new hires coming from Endeavor, Mesa, Gojet, Envoy, PSA, Piedmont, Commutair, Republic, Expressjet, Skywest, Compass, etc.

So until you are on strike, paid less, get less days off, can’t trade in your PTO for cash, don’t get override for night and international, you won’t scare new hires.

Bluedriver
01-02-2018, 08:21 AM
I see, and understand, your point about how horrible life at Jb is, by as horrible as it is, as so poorly paid as you are and so mistreated, it will still be better than Spirit pay and better than all the “regionals” combined, so as bad as it sounds it’s still golden for the future new hires coming from Endeavor, Mesa, Gojet, Envoy, PSA, Piedmont, Commutair, Republic, Expressjet, Skywest, Compass, etc.

So until you are on strike, paid less, get less days off, can’t trade in your PTO for cash, don’t get override for night and international, you won’t scare new hires.

Holy feces, who needs management screwing pilots when you have plenty of pilots to screw each other anyways!

Pilots really are their own worst enemies.

Unreal dude.

cf105
01-03-2018, 09:36 PM
Holy feces, who needs management screwing pilots when you have plenty of pilots to screw each other anyways!

Pilots really are their own worst enemies.

Unreal dude.

Oh so what, you want people who have ****ty pay and ****tier work rules to stay at mediocre level and not take a better job? You are pretty self-centered I would say. But why are you still at jetblue, whinning, why aren't you getting hired where grass is greener?

Bluedriver
01-03-2018, 09:42 PM
Oh so what, you want people who have ****ty pay and ****tier work rules to stay at mediocre level and not take a better job? You are pretty self-centered I would say. But why are you still at jetblue, whinning, why aren't you getting hired where grass is greener?

People can and should DO whatever they think is best for them. What we don't need at this *critical* time is for someone selling JB as being good/great publicly.

Fly your blue underwear flag all you want post CBA dude.

slimothy
01-03-2018, 09:43 PM
Oh so what, you want people who have ****ty pay and ****tier work rules to stay at mediocre level and not take a better job? You are pretty self-centered I would say. But why are you still at jetblue, whinning, why aren't you getting hired where grass is greener?

I encourage you to use JB as the stepping stone to something better. Many of us will bounce if/when the call comes.

cf105
01-03-2018, 09:52 PM
People can and should DO whatever they think is best for them. What we don't need at this *critical* time is for someone selling JB as being good/great publicly.

Fly your blue underwear flag all you want post CBA dude.

But you understand trying to paint a bad image or trying to scare new hires won't work because pay check and work rules, soft pay, are better than where they come from. Heck, even Spirit went on a hiring frenzy. It's all relative.

Bluedriver
01-04-2018, 05:57 AM
But you understand trying to paint a bad image or trying to scare new hires won't work because pay check and work rules, soft pay, are better than where they come from. Heck, even Spirit went on a hiring frenzy. It's all relative.

Actually, the truth does work for many. Not all of course. Many people have told me personally they passed on JB for better because the word is out, it's a VERY low tear major.

I've seen people comment on APC that they have passed on or are not pursuing JB because things are so far behind here right now. When I first came here, many from my previous company asked for help coming here. Now, NONE. I still see some on a regular basis, some are still at the regionals, none ask for help or even mention they even have an application on file.

It's also a known fact our applications are down. We used to open our pilot app window for one week at a time, just a few times a year. Now it's open what seems like almost continuously, sometimes staying open for over a month!

Sure some of that is the environment we are in, but it is mostly due to us being an honest bottom of the barrel major. Period. We offer NOTHING that you can't get even MORE of at DL, UAL, AA, AK, SWA, UPS and FDX.

So yeah, come here if you have to from your regional, but keep your apps open. But you would be surprised how many say they regret coming here or say they now know this place is not what they thought it would be.

Saying all that, I don't hate someone for coming here. Not at all. But they deserve to know the truth and not the rose colored glasses view from some of the Blueberry Juiceboxes on here.

atrdriver
01-04-2018, 06:50 AM
Actually, the truth does work for many. Not all of course. Many people have told me personally they passed on JB for better because the word is out, it's a VERY low tear major.

I've seen people comment on APC that they have passed on or are not pursuing JB because things are so far behind here right now. When I first came here, many from my previous company asked for help coming here. Now, NONE. I still see some on a regular basis, some are still at the regionals, none ask for help or even mention they even have an application on file.

It's also a known fact our applications are down. We used to open our pilot app window for one week at a time, just a few times a year. Now it's open what seems like almost continuously, sometimes staying open for over a month!

Sure some of that is the environment we are in, but it is mostly due to us being an honest bottom of the barrel major. Period. We offer NOTHING that you can't get even MORE of at DL, UAL, AA, AK, SWA, UPS and FDX.

So yeah, come here if you have to from your regional, but keep your apps open. But you would be surprised how many say they regret coming here or say they now know this place is not what they thought it would be.

Saying all that, I don't hate someone for coming here. Not at all. But they deserve to know the truth and not the rose colored glasses view from some of the Blueberry Juiceboxes on here.

I ran into someone I knew at my former regional at an outstation a couple weeks back. Asked him how things are going and turns out he's trying to leave.

He lives in South Florida and I offered up a rec letter because we had flown together. "Oh, I'm not applying to JetBlue." Can't say I blame him.

Bluedriver
01-04-2018, 07:02 AM
I ran into someone I knew at my former regional at an outstation a couple weeks back. Asked him how things are going and turns out he's trying to leave.

He lives in South Florida and I offered up a rec letter because we had flown together. "Oh, I'm not applying to JetBlue." Can't say I blame him.

Yep. Don't get me wrong, I hate that this is where we are right now.

This place has wasted, and continues to waste an EPIC quantity of potential.



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