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View Full Version : Read Before You Come To Envoy


HanSoolu
01-02-2018, 02:40 PM
We live in a day and age where information is readily available at our fingertips, yet we’re still able to recruit people to this company based on numerous falsehoods and sometimes even complete scams. I am writing this to try to paint a more accurate picture than our recruiters at Envoy seem to be giving our new hires.

After just under 2 years with Envoy, I have made the decision to retire from the Airline industry altogether after 5 abysmal years. My experience at three different regionals has proven that this sector of Aviation is not for me. People will continue to tell you that it gets better. Unfortunately, the grass is not always greener on the other side.

My Bachelor’s Degree is in Accounting. When I graduated, I had the option to continue with Accounting and work towards my CPA with one of the Big Four Accounting Firms. Not a day goes by that I do not regret my decision to leave that all behind and go the pilot route. If you’re thinking of making a career change, heed my advice: unless you have a deep and strong passion for aviation, stay away from the airline industry. Just remember that this passion won’t pay the bills.

To those of you that are thinking of joining the ranks of the “Elite” at Eagle, I strongly urge you to think again before selling your soul to the devil (read: Doug Parker).

Before I go to deep into this, I ask to those that respond to please refrain from emotions. My goal is one thing: Just the facts.

Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Come to Envoy:

1) Flow is Nonexistent. Metered. And Completely Unacceptable
It won’t take you long at this airline to discover that the “Just under 6 years to get to American” that the recruiters seem to be touting is a complete lie. The powers that be in management have violated our flow agreement before, and they continue to do so to this day. They are “metering” this number far below the projections from Recruitment.

If you don’t believe me, make a call to our ALPA MEC and ask to speak with someone in Contract Compliance. They will confirm that there is a grievance filed on the violation of our flow agreement. Don’t expect this grievance to be settled anytime soon, either (more on this later).

I cannot stress this enough: DO NOT COME TO ENVOY FOR THE FLOW.

2) You will commute to New York
This is mainly for those on the glorious 145.

Because New York has so many pilots transfer out, the company forces a decent group of its new hires to New York. The recruiters will tell you that you can transfer out in the next quarterly vacancy bid - but don’t think that you won’t be commuting there for at least six months.

Even if you’re lucky enough to avoid getting awarded NFE straight out of indoc, you will end up being sent there Involuntarily on TDY at least once throughout your career at Envoy.

If you’re going to be forced to New York, why not go to an airline that actually cares about its employees and compensates them adequately? *cough*Endeavor*cough*

2a) If you go to New York, You will be run by someone with little authority to be a Chief Pilot
The company has chosen the lowest bidder for the Job in NY, and that individual is our Chief Pilot, who just so happens to be a first officer on the CRJ (mind you, a plane that doesn’t even exist in New York).

Because he is the lowest bidder for the job, expect him to never be in the office when you need him. Also expect him to be completely unhelpful for anything you need.

I once asked for access to Res (for commuting purposes) and was told by this Chief Pilot that he does not have the proper permissions to give someone that access. Ask the CPO in ORD or DFW and you will most likely have access to Res within the next few hours.

3) Flight Benefits Are Worth Very Little
This mainly applies to all regionals, but I believe AAG to have flight benefits that are a steaming pile of *******.

So you want to go to San Diego for a weekend? Good luck getting on a plane to get out there. AAG sells Basic Economy Fares that are as low as $60 one way. Your plane is going to be FULL. There will be little to no room for Space Available travelers.

So you ended up in San Diego with your Registered Companion (or Spouse). You enjoy the weekend and are ready for your trip home. The flight home on Monday morning had 40 seats open when you checked JetNet on Sunday night. All of a sudden, you wake up and find that the flight has been oversold, probably due to Basic Economy Fares.

So you take the jumpsuit and your spouse isn’t getting home in time for their commitments. Now s/he is angry with you and refuses to non-rev with you anytime soon.

Let’s just fly on a Tuesday mid-day then! Nope. Still wrong. Unless it’s the first week of February, your travel guests are not going anywhere. The amount of people in front of your guests (which includes your Spouse and Dependent Children) far exceeds the amount of open seats. This is because everyone and their mother has these flight benefits. Even the good-for-nothing Analyst at PSA.

AAG has over 95,000 employees. Assume that every employee has only their spouse on their travel privileges. You do the math on your odds.

And if you’re commuting? Guess who’s getting that Jumpseat… the AA Pilot who listed as a Primary the night before. Expect to use the Commuting Clause once per year and to not get paid for a decent portion of a trip, even though you were available to work.

4) Pay (Especially our Absurd Bonus Structure)
We’ve all seen the compensation that some airlines have been advertising. Those that include Hotels and Per Diem in their “compensation” numbers are pulling wool over your eyes. It appears Envoy is doing this now as well.

Let’s forget about that for a moment. As of the end of 2017, Envoy paid a meager $37.90 per flight hour to a first year FO. You can reasonably expect a total earnings within your first year of about $37,900.

They try to offset this with the fact that you receive a New Hire-Bonus and that you are eligible for a Retention Bonus after the first year. These bonuses are $22,100 and $2500 a quarter respectively. After taxes, expect to receive about $17,000 on day 1, leading to your first year’s compensation at just around $60,000. Not bad right?

Well, the second year is where things get funky. Let say you started on January 22, 2017. Because you aren’t on property and active for at least 60 days of the quarter (Nov 1 - Jan 31) you won’t receive your first $2500 bonus payment until April 30, 2018 (Q1 close). Because of this, your second year earnings will be considerably less. At roughly $40 per flight hour, and bonus payouts totaling $7500 within the year*, you can expect your second year earnings to be $47,500, a sharp and dramatic increase from your earnings during the first year.

So, I’ll just upgrade to captain the second year! Well, sounds fine and dandy, but you then leave $20,000 on the table (2 years of retention payments). You’ll also be paid much less than your peers at Endeavor for the same responsibility. This may be offset by your upgrade bonus, but don’t expect that to help with much.

In order to attract qualified candidates, Envoy needs to implement a compensation structure that leads our industry. Especially give the fact that our once meaningful Flow-Through has been entirely crushed to nothing more than empty dreams and hopes (see #1 above).

*This number based on Bonus payouts on April 30, 2018; July 31, 2018; and October 31, 2018. The payout on January 31, 2019 happens on your third year with the company.

5) Expect To Be Underpaid
I kept track of myself, and five others’ Flight Schedules and determined that after a period of three months, in 14 out of 15 months, we were underpaid. One of these Pay Audits resulted in more than $1200 that was not paid to said pilot.

This isn’t a freak occurrence. Almost everyone at this airline has a story about how Pay Comp has stiffed them of their hard-earned money.

This happens all too often. And it must stop. Until then, I highly recommend you go elsewhere to a company that will pay you adequately for your flying.

6) Expect a Merger with Piedmont in the Near Future
Not much to say here other than that rumors on the street are that Piedmont and Envoy will merge by the end of 2018. Maybe it won’t happen that quickly, but think about this: After the last Dash leaves Piedmont, what reason can you think of for two separate airlines that operate the same airplane?

This one is strictly a rumor, but if you expect that Doug Parker is going to overlook this, then you are sadly mistaken.

If you need a reason for why this is bad for a pilot group, do a quick google search.

7) Constant Junior Manning
If you’re new to aviation, this is a basic rundown on what “Junior Manning” involves:

Originally intended to be a way for employers to extend pilots out of base due to weather or other unforeseen operational irregularities, “Junior Manning” essentially allows a company to extend a pilot past his original sign-out time, in exchange for compensation.

At Envoy, this means the greater of what was flown at 200%, or 4 hours at the pilot’s normal hourly rate.

Okay, so you have to fly a little extra. What’s the big deal? The big deal is that you will be extended into an additional overnight when you planned to be back home with your wife and kids. All in exchange for $151. That’s pretty awful.

This happened to me 10 times in 2017. This is not an anomaly throughout the system. This company is understaffed and you will become an indentured servant by signing with them.

8) The Company Will Violate the Contract
Management is so bad at this company that they have no regard for the labor contracts and the agreements they make with the union. Although related to number 1 (see above) this is a rampant problem throughout Envoy.

This will not get better over time. The corporate culture is in desperate need of a change. Envoy managers have a “fly it and grieve it” mentality, which always works to the company’s favor. The company knows they won’t be penalized for their wanton and willful violations of the contract. They would much rather take their chances with a System Board of Adjustment, mainly because it is much easier to screw over employees and pay off an Arbitrator than to upset a few customers.

Violations of the contract take no skin out of Envoy’s back because the grievance system is rigged in their favor. Envoy does not have to appear in a Court of Law for Breach of Contract. Pedro and Ric will always defer to “Fly It and Grieve It.” This type of abuse of process was never the intent Railway Labor Act.

9) Fatigue Calls Will Count Against You
Despite being told during training that you should call out fatigued if you are tired, the company has an approach to “Fatiguing Out” that is unparalleled within this industry. Call out tired and you will be disciplined for it.

Don’t take my word for it. Ask every single pilot at Envoy how this works. The families of Colgan Air 3407 would be appalled to hear how Envoy treats its pilots when they invoke FAR 117.

You WILL fly tired at Envoy.

10) Forced Upgrades
What you’ve heard around the industry is true. Envoy is using a little known clause within its labor contract to force pilots to upgrade, even if they don’t feel ready to do so.

And when you are forced to upgrade, guess where you're going: LGA.

Expect backlash if you come to Envoy with legal upgrade minimums and decline to do so due to personal reasons or safety.

If you’re wondering if you will be put in this position, I recommend that you review FAR 121.436.

11) Training Is Subpar at Best
The training at Envoy is among the worst in the industry. They are so backed-up that you can expect to be in the school house for 3-6 months. There are few instructors who are actually good at their jobs. Most of them are there to earn a paycheck and have done the bare minimum to become qualified on the fleet that they teach.

If you have a question, expect an instructor to respond that they don’t know. I have personally been told that an instructor will ask around and have an answer for me within the next day or so. I still don’t know the answer to that question.

Envoy is also hiring PSIs (Non-Line Qualified Simulator Instructors) that are some of the worst teachers in the industry. Some of them have never flown an EFIS aircraft. This leads to immense frustration on the student’s part.

As long as Allen Hill is the Director of Flight Training at Envoy, you can expect the training to be among the worst in the industry.

12) Deadhead Pay is 75%
For those of you new to the industry, deadheading will be a part of life. A deadhead happens when a flight crew member is repositioned as part of their trip sequence. E.g.: A pilot ends a flight in CMH and needs to be flow as a passenger to ORD to fly the rest of their trip.

Imagine that you are required to be at work, but you aren’t paid for being there. This is the life of an Envoy Pilot. You will be used inefficiently (see 15 below).

13) CRJ is Hell
If you have the misfortune of being assigned to the CRJ straight out of Indoc, you can expect your Quality of Life to be horrible for the foreseeable future.

This is a dying fleet. And because of that, pilots will sit reserve for 3-6 months. There are pilots at Envoy on the CRJ that have flown a little under 200 hours after 1 year with the company. These are pilots who want to fly. As long as this fleet continues to die, you can expect the reserve list to grow more and more, and you can expect to sit reserve in Chicago for many more months.

14) Fired for Being Sick
Call in sick during your probationary period and expect to be fired. Even if you have a Doctor’s Note. This is nothing new. Every year there is a purge of pilots for sick calls. The most notable of these terminations being a Union Representative named Neal.

“In what can only be described as a violation of privacy, the company hired a private investigator to follow and take photos of Neal outside of work, during a period he was ill and unable to perform his duties in accordance with common sense and FAA medical regulations for pilots.”

You can read more here: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-98504.html

Expect this to continue for as long as Pedro and Ric are in charge.

15) Long Sits
Envoy is so inefficient that it schedules long sits - upwards of 3 hours - for its pilots when trip sequences are made. If there truly was a pilot shortage, they would not be scheduling pilots to sit at the airport to do nothing for hours on end.

This wouldn’t be that much of an issue if the company was willing to pay a minimum daily guarantee for pilots, but they refuse to do so.

Do you like making $80 for working a 6 hour day? Come to Envoy, where you’re bound to have this happen monthly!

16) AA gives the Table Scraps of Flying
The long sits that I mentioned above will continue because big brother AAG continues to give the table scraps of its regional flying to Envoy. The company cannot figure out how to patch these flights together to make a logical sequence, so you’re stuck with the long sits as mentioned above.

17) Benefits Cost More for Pilots than Any Other Workforce
Although it isn’t too much more of a difference, it just goes to show how valued you are as a pilot. Even the Rampers get their medical benefits at a cheaper price than us pilots do.

18) Midday Flying is Nonexistent
Because of these table scraps, you can expect to fly either early in the morning or late at night. Meanwhile your peers at Republic, Mesa, Skywest, etc. will have 0800 shows and will be done flying for the day at 1700 or 1800. If you like waking up before 0400, or staying awake past 0300 because you got extended, then Envoy is the airline for you!


Specifics To Reserve:
I can’t speak too deeply into this as I was on Reserve for a very minuscule part of my stint at Envoy. However, the general consensus of the Pilots at Envoy believe that the Reserve system is in a dire need of an overhaul. I will do my best to highlight specifics below.

19) Airport Standby (or Ready Reserve)
Envoy is one of the only airlines in the regional pool that uses the outdated Airport Standby system. At Envoy, these shifts are 8 hours long. This does not result in more compensation, other than the lousy $1.90/hour that you can expect to receive in per diem (which is taxed, btw). I don't know about you, but personally, I love sitting around for hours at the airport doing absolutely nothing.

20) No Long Call
Almost every airline in the industry uses a system of Long Call Reserve. Essentially, you will have a 12 - 24 hour call out prior to your show time for a flight. Don’t expect this at Envoy. Our pilots are extremely bitter about this and we don’t see it changing anytime soon.

21) Escalating RAP to Standby
What this means is that you can expect to be called in to sit Standby, even if you were on a RAP (2-hour call out). Other airlines have an escalation clause, which allows for more compensation when you were originally scheduled to work a 2-hour call out reserve assignment. This essentially forces the airline to pay for their poor reserve planning by adding more compensation to a pilot who experiences this phenomenon. Don’t expect Envoy to ever pay you for their poor planning. What you should expect is to sit standby for a decent amount of reserve shifts. Sounds fun, right?

Final Reserve Thoughts:
There’s much more than what I’ve shared here, but this is a decent introduction to the pain that you will experience on reserve if you join Envoy.

The Company and the Union recently got together to revamp these Reserve Rules. After months of negotiations, the company sent a lowball offer to the Union with many concessions for the pilot group. When this was overwhelmingly rejected by the pilots, the company retreated into its shell like a three-year old that didn’t get a cookie after dinner. As was described to me by a representative of the union: the company put the union on notice that they refuse to negotiate with the pilot group regarding reserve. The company thinks that their reserve system is entirely acceptable.

Rotorcraft Transition Pilots (RTP):
If you’re still reading this, you most likely have already made up your mind that Envoy is not for you. Let’s say that you still believe that Envoy’s RTP program is still a viable option. I strongly advise you to look elsewhere, as most regional airlines now have these programs.

The company that contracts with Envoy to do the flight training for this transition is about 12-18 months backed up at the moment. Expect to wait a very long time to enter the program. You will be at the bottom of the seniority list.

If you’re in the military, you’ve undoubtedly heard how awful and disorganized the training program is at this contractor.

If you’re looking at company to Envoy and joining the Rotorcraft Transition Program, please ask around within your unit and other units. The research may save you from making the jump into a miserable career with a dismal airline.

Cadet Instructors:
If you’re thinking about joining this program, then you should think again. It could take you a year or two to earn the hours needed to progress to a regional. This industry is very dynamic: what is great today, will not be great tomorrow.

With that being said, it is a decent perk to receive Flight and other benefits such as Medical, Dental, Vision and 401k. However, these come at an exorbitant cost. If you decide to leave Envoy when you have reached your ATP minimums, you will incur a $5000 penalty to “buy-out” your contract.

I highly recommend you do your due diligence before you sign a contract with this airline.


In closing, the trend that Envoy as an airline is experiencing is downward in nature. Due to the current corporate culture and management, you can expect tomorrow to be worse than today.

I welcome your response and input. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions on a personal level. I will be happy to answer them.


in2deep
01-02-2018, 02:54 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z2sWla1ktY&ab_channel=DeeWithDaTea

Half of these are complaining that you actually have to work to get a check. As for #11, one of the last class was done in about 2.5-3 months.

bigtime209
01-02-2018, 02:56 PM
I agree with about 90% of this. Management has some work to do, but they simply do not care unless their hiring numbers drop.


HanSoolu
01-02-2018, 03:16 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Z2sWla1ktY&ab_channel=DeeWithDaTea
Actually, not mad - but certainly regretful at the moment. I am trying to write a post that I wish someone would've written before I made the decision to jump to Eagle.

At the end of the day, I wish for each individual to evaluate this airline as a viable career solution based on their own particulars.

Half of these are complaining that you actually have to work to get a check.
I think you failed to understand that my complaint is that we are NOT working. So be your quick judgment, though.

As for #11, one of the last class was done in about 2.5-3 months.
Are you saying that 3-6 months as a general timeframe is false?

I agree with about 90% of this. Management has some work to do, but they simply do not care unless their hiring numbers drop.
I'm curious as to what you disagree with. My hope is that this thread serves for "just the facts." If I am wrong on anything, please correct me.

Jamesthunder
01-02-2018, 03:18 PM
Call in sick during your probationary period and expect to be fired.

Seriously?

HanSoolu
01-02-2018, 03:20 PM
Seriously?
I personally know of three separate instances where this has happened.

Although there may be more of a backstory that I do not know, something seems odd here. And I don't know if I blame the pilots or the company.

Castle Bravo
01-02-2018, 03:21 PM
I should have just stopped reading at "I am retiring from the airline industry." Everything after that was just whining. Good luck at the Big 6 Accounting firms.

HanSoolu
01-02-2018, 03:32 PM
I should have just stopped reading at "I am retiring from the airline industry." Everything after that was just whining. Good luck at the Big 6 Accounting firms.
If one's opinions are a general reflection of how the pilot group feels is called "whining," then I do apologize for wasting your time.

Because I'm curious: When was the last time you flew with ENY? Are you flying the line or are you on Military Leave?

Armybeatnavy
01-02-2018, 03:40 PM
I’m sorry you have had a bad experience at Envoy. From your post I can see the frustration and I understand. There are a few things I disagree with you on. First is the flight benefits. I do think we (the wholly owned) have the best flights benefits in the regional level. The wife and I have travelled on over 70 flights last years and never had an issue. Second my experience on the CRJ has been completely different. I was junior manned once last year and declined to do it. I went in and spoke to the chief pilot and it was all cleared. Also I called in sick during my probationary period and I was not fired. I would never put safety in second. By no means am I defending the company but at the same time I feel your post shows angles of frustration and that leads to certain truths being stretch out a bit. Hope all is well man. I’ll see you on the line.



Essayons

ag386
01-02-2018, 03:41 PM
I agree with HanSoolu. I left envoy for Allegiant 2 years ago and was told what an idiot I was for "walking away from the flow." Looks like I was correct. The flow is bogus and will never work as the envoy recruiters and salesmen claimed it would. I'm in the left seat of the Bus now. Worlds better than anything envoy has to offer.

AV8LAW
01-02-2018, 03:46 PM
You may have just saved a life.
I know hiring just dropped by one. No on the fence now. Have spoken with a few people but this seals it:eek:

bigtime209
01-02-2018, 03:52 PM
I agree with HanSoolu. I left envoy for Allegiant 2 years ago and was told what an idiot I was for "walking away from the flow." Looks like I was correct. The flow is bogus and will never work as the envoy recruiters and salesmen claimed it would. I'm in the left seat of the Bus now. Worlds better than anything envoy has to offer.

Just out of curiosity, what was your original DOH at Eagle?

Jsch
01-02-2018, 03:59 PM
I personally know of three separate instances where this has happened.

Although there may be more of a backstory that I do not know, something seems odd here. And I don't know if I blame the pilots or the company.

Completely FALSE! I’ve called in on probation and nothing happened! Yes I had to go in a talk with CPO but it was simply to review the attendance policy. No questions were asked about my sickness, no doctor’s note requested.

Thanks for the seniority bump!!

TheRaven
01-02-2018, 04:07 PM
3 different regionals?

No offense, but you sound like the kind of guy who would stub his toe on a gold brick and complain. You're a non-hacker, who couldn't persevere at 3 different regionals, who is bailing from the industry, and just want to watch the world burn.

No regional is all sunshine and rainbows, but it's a means to an end.

Good luck in accounting....

Jamesthunder
01-02-2018, 04:16 PM
Completely FALSE! I’ve called in on probation and nothing happened! Yes I had to go in a talk with CPO but it was simply to review the attendance policy. No questions were asked about my sickness, no doctor’s note requested.

Thanks for the seniority bump!!

I only did half of that. When I went in for a sick call, CPO asked who died when I went out on bereavement and then said I was all squared away. "Pretty harmless right?" "Yea that hardest part was finding the office."

HanSoolu
01-02-2018, 04:16 PM
3 different regionals?

No offense, but you sound like the kind of guy who would stub his toe on a gold brick and complain. You're a non-hacker, who couldn't persevere at 3 different regionals, who is bailing from the industry, and just want to watch the world burn.
I'm not gonna respond to your attacks on me as a person. I will respond to anything you refute about the current conditions at Envoy. Since we don't have a 757, I think you're in the wrong forum.

No regional is all sunshine and rainbows, but it's a means to an end.
I never said they were sunshine and rainbows. But when I came to Envoy I thought "it can't be THAT bad." Well, it is THAT bad. Shame on me for not listening to the complaints of the pilots at the time.

Inop2
01-02-2018, 04:25 PM
I’m sorry you have had a bad experience at Envoy. From your post I can see the frustration and I understand. There are a few things I disagree with you on. First is the flight benefits. I do think we (the wholly owned) have the best flights benefits in the regional level. The wife and I have travelled on over 70 flights last years and never had an issue. Second my experience on the CRJ has been completely different. I was junior manned once last year and declined to do it. I went in and spoke to the chief pilot and it was all cleared. Also I called in sick during my probationary period and I was not fired. I would never put safety in second. By no means am I defending the company but at the same time I feel your post shows angles of frustration and that leads to certain truths being stretch out a bit. Hope all is well man. I’ll see you on the line.



Essayons

A fair response and close to my experience. I was sick 3 times last year, called in and never heard a word from the CP. Also needed a week off for my sons destination wedding and the CP dropped a sequence off my schedule to make the time. My CP is not in NY.

Health benefits are more affordable than Endeavors...I’ve done the anylasis.

Flight benefits have been good.

Your comments about schedules are more accurate in my experience. And the places we fly are Nowheresville USA.

Understand the frustration, maybe I’ll be there in a year or 2 but it has not been my experience. I’d kill myself before sitting in a cube for hours looking at Schedule K’s and deferred income; etc but you may enjoy it and at least you’ll be bring in some serious $$.

Seaplane
01-02-2018, 04:26 PM
#22 Envoy doesn’t have massaging seat cushions for the pilots.

Is Envoy perfect? NO. But I mean damn, it’s NOT that bad.

Times are changing and the company will eventually have make changes, hopefully for the better. Change isn’t accomplished overnight. Regional flying is entering a new age and I think the best days are still to come. Flow, pay, schedules....ect

A bad day in a cockpit is still better than a 8-4 desk job with a nagging boss.

Show up on time, enjoy the flight, and remember to get a water bottle before you go to the hotel. Smile it can always be worse....

Pawnee235
01-02-2018, 04:32 PM
If this is the most unbearable job you’ve ever had, you’ve had a good life.

EnyFlyr
01-02-2018, 04:41 PM
In all fairness the chief pilot in NY did tell me not to call in sick because that was not going to look good if God forbid something happens and they have to look at my file.. he gave me a hard time when I mentioned my wife was due soon and I had to take time off.. I went in for basic indoc on my day off so I was wearing a regular coat, so he started mentioning not to wear any coats that are not part of the uniform, all the while his dirty Converse were peeking out from underneath his desk..:cool:

I will tell you one thing, line pilots do not like the guy.

Castle Bravo
01-02-2018, 04:41 PM
If one's opinions are a general reflection of how the pilot group feels is called "whining," then I do apologize for wasting your time.

Because I'm curious: When was the last time you flew with ENY? Are you flying the line or are you on Military Leave?

I don't fly for Envoy; I am your intended audience, one of those guys looking for an RJ job company. But there is "a guy like you" on every one of the RJ forums. There is someone who slams every regional, even Endeavor (up til a few weeks ago.) I've read all the WOs forums and most of the rest. Each of them has a guy who thinks someone has pooped in his Post-Toasties.

Dude, if you're not passionate about flying for a living, move on, but don't try to justify the decision with a scorched earth policy. Life is tough, it's tougher if your bitter.

Everyone starts at the bottom (except Mil guys), and you have to grind it out for a few years. In 5 more years, you could be at a mainline making the big coin. Think of the guys who were RJ FOs during the Lost Decade. And you are complaining about Reserve in NYC for 3-6 months???

Most likely for the next several years (Decade?), the regionals will be a stepping stone to mainline. Put your head down, grind it out and move up, like the other guy did to Allegiant. If you don't like ENY, go somewhere else. It's a free country.

itsmytime
01-02-2018, 04:42 PM
Over/under on how many years before "hansoolou" is looking to get back into the industry?

bigtime209
01-02-2018, 04:55 PM
I'm not gonna respond to your attacks on me as a person. I will respond to anything you refute about the current conditions at Envoy. Since we don't have a 757, I think you're in the wrong forum.


I never said they were sunshine and rainbows. But when I came to Envoy I thought "it can't be THAT bad." Well, it is THAT bad. Shame on me for not listening to the complaints of the pilots at the time.

You brought up a lot of good points regarding the negatives of working at Envoy. All while sounding like an entitled little whiny beeyatch. Work on your delivery and more people will take you seriously.

Pedro4President
01-02-2018, 05:38 PM
Wow. Although many of your points are taken to an extreme I can't point to one that is completely wrong. I will say many of the examples you put forth although likely happened i.e. ( fired for sick calls, 10 JMs) this isn't even close to being the norm. Your post tries to make it seem like the extremely negative aspect of working here is the norm. They are actually very rare. JMs come and go in spurts depending on staffing levels.

However, did you really complain that the upgrade time was too quick??

05Duramax
01-02-2018, 05:54 PM
I quit flying after a year of flight instructing during the dark days after 9/11. Last year I quit my 9-5 job which was amazingly soul sucking; I took a 50% pay cut to become a CFI and thank God everyday I made that choice. First time around I thought of flight instructing as a means to an end, a chore. This time around I think it is luck that I’m here and get to be part of young people starting their way on their dreams, and everyday that I start my work day by lining up on a centerline and rolling down a runway I’m so thankful. It’s all perspective, I’m sure Envoy has its issues, they are on my radar for various reasons; I’ve read the negatives. But the original poster reminds me of me my first time around as CFI; go spend 10 years getting micromanaged in a cubicle; I’m guessing his perspective will change as well.

TalkTurkey
01-02-2018, 05:58 PM
Come to endeavor. We had a probationary pilot miss three trips with no excusable explanation and still works here.

amcnd
01-02-2018, 07:58 PM
Buy a weekend KSAN getaway ticket for $60. You will spend that much on food waiting all day for a empty seat on a flight....

Subpilot
01-02-2018, 08:36 PM
Buy a weekend KSAN getaway ticket for $60. You will spend that much on food waiting all day for a empty seat on a flight....

Plus you get a 20% discount so only $48.

DilsonWic
01-03-2018, 04:46 AM
If you can put his writing style aside, he ain’t wrong! I myself was nodding my head in agreement.

AZPilotMike
01-03-2018, 05:01 AM
We live in a day and age where information is readily available at our fingertips, yet we’re still able to recruit people to this company based on numerous falsehoods and sometimes even complete scams. I am writing this to try to paint a more accurate picture than our recruiters at Envoy seem to be giving our new hires.

After just under 2 years with Envoy, I have made the decision to retire from the Airline industry altogether after 5 abysmal years. My experience at three different regionals has proven that this sector of Aviation is not for me. People will continue to tell you that it gets better. Unfortunately, the grass is not always greener on the other side.

My Bachelor’s Degree is in Accounting. When I graduated, I had the option to continue with Accounting and work towards my CPA with one of the Big Four Accounting Firms. Not a day goes by that I do not regret my decision to leave that all behind and go the pilot route. If you’re thinking of making a career change, heed my advice: unless you have a deep and strong passion for aviation, stay away from the airline industry. Just remember that this passion won’t pay the bills.

To those of you that are thinking of joining the ranks of the “Elite” at Eagle, I strongly urge you to think again before selling your soul to the devil (read: Doug Parker).

Before I go to deep into this, I ask to those that respond to please refrain from emotions. My goal is one thing: Just the facts.

Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Come to Envoy:

1) Flow is Nonexistent. Metered. And Completely Unacceptable
It won’t take you long at this airline to discover that the “Just under 6 years to get to American” that the recruiters seem to be touting is a complete lie. The powers that be in management have violated our flow agreement before, and they continue to do so to this day. They are “metering” this number far below the projections from Recruitment.

If you don’t believe me, make a call to our ALPA MEC and ask to speak with someone in Contract Compliance. They will confirm that there is a grievance filed on the violation of our flow agreement. Don’t expect this grievance to be settled anytime soon, either (more on this later).

I cannot stress this enough: DO NOT COME TO ENVOY FOR THE FLOW.

2) You will commute to New York
This is mainly for those on the glorious 145.

Because New York has so many pilots transfer out, the company forces a decent group of its new hires to New York. The recruiters will tell you that you can transfer out in the next quarterly vacancy bid - but don’t think that you won’t be commuting there for at least six months.

Even if you’re lucky enough to avoid getting awarded NFE straight out of indoc, you will end up being sent there Involuntarily on TDY at least once throughout your career at Envoy.

If you’re going to be forced to New York, why not go to an airline that actually cares about its employees and compensates them adequately? *cough*Endeavor*cough*

2a) If you go to New York, You will be run by someone with little authority to be a Chief Pilot
The company has chosen the lowest bidder for the Job in NY, and that individual is our Chief Pilot, who just so happens to be a first officer on the CRJ (mind you, a plane that doesn’t even exist in New York).

Because he is the lowest bidder for the job, expect him to never be in the office when you need him. Also expect him to be completely unhelpful for anything you need.

I once asked for access to Res (for commuting purposes) and was told by this Chief Pilot that he does not have the proper permissions to give someone that access. Ask the CPO in ORD or DFW and you will most likely have access to Res within the next few hours.

3) Flight Benefits Are Worth Very Little
This mainly applies to all regionals, but I believe AAG to have flight benefits that are a steaming pile of *******.

So you want to go to San Diego for a weekend? Good luck getting on a plane to get out there. AAG sells Basic Economy Fares that are as low as $60 one way. Your plane is going to be FULL. There will be little to no room for Space Available travelers.

So you ended up in San Diego with your Registered Companion (or Spouse). You enjoy the weekend and are ready for your trip home. The flight home on Monday morning had 40 seats open when you checked JetNet on Sunday night. All of a sudden, you wake up and find that the flight has been oversold, probably due to Basic Economy Fares.

So you take the jumpsuit and your spouse isn’t getting home in time for their commitments. Now s/he is angry with you and refuses to non-rev with you anytime soon.

Let’s just fly on a Tuesday mid-day then! Nope. Still wrong. Unless it’s the first week of February, your travel guests are not going anywhere. The amount of people in front of your guests (which includes your Spouse and Dependent Children) far exceeds the amount of open seats. This is because everyone and their mother has these flight benefits. Even the good-for-nothing Analyst at PSA.

AAG has over 95,000 employees. Assume that every employee has only their spouse on their travel privileges. You do the math on your odds.

And if you’re commuting? Guess who’s getting that Jumpseat… the AA Pilot who listed as a Primary the night before. Expect to use the Commuting Clause once per year and to not get paid for a decent portion of a trip, even though you were available to work.

4) Pay (Especially our Absurd Bonus Structure)
We’ve all seen the compensation that some airlines have been advertising. Those that include Hotels and Per Diem in their “compensation” numbers are pulling wool over your eyes. It appears Envoy is doing this now as well.

Let’s forget about that for a moment. As of the end of 2017, Envoy paid a meager $37.90 per flight hour to a first year FO. You can reasonably expect a total earnings within your first year of about $37,900.

They try to offset this with the fact that you receive a New Hire-Bonus and that you are eligible for a Retention Bonus after the first year. These bonuses are $22,100 and $2500 a quarter respectively. After taxes, expect to receive about $17,000 on day 1, leading to your first year’s compensation at just around $60,000. Not bad right?

Well, the second year is where things get funky. Let say you started on January 22, 2017. Because you aren’t on property and active for at least 60 days of the quarter (Nov 1 - Jan 31) you won’t receive your first $2500 bonus payment until April 30, 2018 (Q1 close). Because of this, your second year earnings will be considerably less. At roughly $40 per flight hour, and bonus payouts totaling $7500 within the year*, you can expect your second year earnings to be $47,500, a sharp and dramatic increase from your earnings during the first year.

So, I’ll just upgrade to captain the second year! Well, sounds fine and dandy, but you then leave $20,000 on the table (2 years of retention payments). You’ll also be paid much less than your peers at Endeavor for the same responsibility. This may be offset by your upgrade bonus, but don’t expect that to help with much.

In order to attract qualified candidates, Envoy needs to implement a compensation structure that leads our industry. Especially give the fact that our once meaningful Flow-Through has been entirely crushed to nothing more than empty dreams and hopes (see #1 above).

*This number based on Bonus payouts on April 30, 2018; July 31, 2018; and October 31, 2018. The payout on January 31, 2019 happens on your third year with the company.

5) Expect To Be Underpaid
I kept track of myself, and five others’ Flight Schedules and determined that after a period of three months, in 14 out of 15 months, we were underpaid. One of these Pay Audits resulted in more than $1200 that was not paid to said pilot.

This isn’t a freak occurrence. Almost everyone at this airline has a story about how Pay Comp has stiffed them of their hard-earned money.

This happens all too often. And it must stop. Until then, I highly recommend you go elsewhere to a company that will pay you adequately for your flying.

6) Expect a Merger with Piedmont in the Near Future
Not much to say here other than that rumors on the street are that Piedmont and Envoy will merge by the end of 2018. Maybe it won’t happen that quickly, but think about this: After the last Dash leaves Piedmont, what reason can you think of for two separate airlines that operate the same airplane?

This one is strictly a rumor, but if you expect that Doug Parker is going to overlook this, then you are sadly mistaken.

If you need a reason for why this is bad for a pilot group, do a quick google search.

7) Constant Junior Manning
If you’re new to aviation, this is a basic rundown on what “Junior Manning” involves:

Originally intended to be a way for employers to extend pilots out of base due to weather or other unforeseen operational irregularities, “Junior Manning” essentially allows a company to extend a pilot past his original sign-out time, in exchange for compensation.

At Envoy, this means the greater of what was flown at 200%, or 4 hours at the pilot’s normal hourly rate.

Okay, so you have to fly a little extra. What’s the big deal? The big deal is that you will be extended into an additional overnight when you planned to be back home with your wife and kids. All in exchange for $151. That’s pretty awful.

This happened to me 10 times in 2017. This is not an anomaly throughout the system. This company is understaffed and you will become an indentured servant by signing with them.

8) The Company Will Violate the Contract
Management is so bad at this company that they have no regard for the labor contracts and the agreements they make with the union. Although related to number 1 (see above) this is a rampant problem throughout Envoy.

This will not get better over time. The corporate culture is in desperate need of a change. Envoy managers have a “fly it and grieve it” mentality, which always works to the company’s favor. The company knows they won’t be penalized for their wanton and willful violations of the contract. They would much rather take their chances with a System Board of Adjustment, mainly because it is much easier to screw over employees and pay off an Arbitrator than to upset a few customers.

Violations of the contract take no skin out of Envoy’s back because the grievance system is rigged in their favor. Envoy does not have to appear in a Court of Law for Breach of Contract. Pedro and Ric will always defer to “Fly It and Grieve It.” This type of abuse of process was never the intent Railway Labor Act.

9) Fatigue Calls Will Count Against You
Despite being told during training that you should call out fatigued if you are tired, the company has an approach to “Fatiguing Out” that is unparalleled within this industry. Call out tired and you will be disciplined for it.

Don’t take my word for it. Ask every single pilot at Envoy how this works. The families of Colgan Air 3407 would be appalled to hear how Envoy treats its pilots when they invoke FAR 117.

You WILL fly tired at Envoy.

10) Forced Upgrades
What you’ve heard around the industry is true. Envoy is using a little known clause within its labor contract to force pilots to upgrade, even if they don’t feel ready to do so.

And when you are forced to upgrade, guess where you're going: LGA.

Expect backlash if you come to Envoy with legal upgrade minimums and decline to do so due to personal reasons or safety.

If you’re wondering if you will be put in this position, I recommend that you review FAR 121.436.

11) Training Is Subpar at Best
The training at Envoy is among the worst in the industry. They are so backed-up that you can expect to be in the school house for 3-6 months. There are few instructors who are actually good at their jobs. Most of them are there to earn a paycheck and have done the bare minimum to become qualified on the fleet that they teach.

If you have a question, expect an instructor to respond that they don’t know. I have personally been told that an instructor will ask around and have an answer for me within the next day or so. I still don’t know the answer to that question.

Envoy is also hiring PSIs (Non-Line Qualified Simulator Instructors) that are some of the worst teachers in the industry. Some of them have never flown an EFIS aircraft. This leads to immense frustration on the student’s part.

As long as Allen Hill is the Director of Flight Training at Envoy, you can expect the training to be among the worst in the industry.

12) Deadhead Pay is 75%
For those of you new to the industry, deadheading will be a part of life. A deadhead happens when a flight crew member is repositioned as part of their trip sequence. E.g.: A pilot ends a flight in CMH and needs to be flow as a passenger to ORD to fly the rest of their trip.

Imagine that you are required to be at work, but you aren’t paid for being there. This is the life of an Envoy Pilot. You will be used inefficiently (see 15 below).

13) CRJ is Hell
If you have the misfortune of being assigned to the CRJ straight out of Indoc, you can expect your Quality of Life to be horrible for the foreseeable future.

This is a dying fleet. And because of that, pilots will sit reserve for 3-6 months. There are pilots at Envoy on the CRJ that have flown a little under 200 hours after 1 year with the company. These are pilots who want to fly. As long as this fleet continues to die, you can expect the reserve list to grow more and more, and you can expect to sit reserve in Chicago for many more months.

14) Fired for Being Sick
Call in sick during your probationary period and expect to be fired. Even if you have a Doctor’s Note. This is nothing new. Every year there is a purge of pilots for sick calls. The most notable of these terminations being a Union Representative named Neal.

“In what can only be described as a violation of privacy, the company hired a private investigator to follow and take photos of Neal outside of work, during a period he was ill and unable to perform his duties in accordance with common sense and FAA medical regulations for pilots.”

You can read more here: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-98504.html

Expect this to continue for as long as Pedro and Ric are in charge.

15) Long Sits
Envoy is so inefficient that it schedules long sits - upwards of 3 hours - for its pilots when trip sequences are made. If there truly was a pilot shortage, they would not be scheduling pilots to sit at the airport to do nothing for hours on end.

This wouldn’t be that much of an issue if the company was willing to pay a minimum daily guarantee for pilots, but they refuse to do so.

Do you like making $80 for working a 6 hour day? Come to Envoy, where you’re bound to have this happen monthly!

16) AA gives the Table Scraps of Flying
The long sits that I mentioned above will continue because big brother AAG continues to give the table scraps of its regional flying to Envoy. The company cannot figure out how to patch these flights together to make a logical sequence, so you’re stuck with the long sits as mentioned above.

17) Benefits Cost More for Pilots than Any Other Workforce
Although it isn’t too much more of a difference, it just goes to show how valued you are as a pilot. Even the Rampers get their medical benefits at a cheaper price than us pilots do.

18) Midday Flying is Nonexistent
Because of these table scraps, you can expect to fly either early in the morning or late at night. Meanwhile your peers at Republic, Mesa, Skywest, etc. will have 0800 shows and will be done flying for the day at 1700 or 1800. If you like waking up before 0400, or staying awake past 0300 because you got extended, then Envoy is the airline for you!


Specifics To Reserve:
I can’t speak too deeply into this as I was on Reserve for a very minuscule part of my stint at Envoy. However, the general consensus of the Pilots at Envoy believe that the Reserve system is in a dire need of an overhaul. I will do my best to highlight specifics below.

19) Airport Standby (or Ready Reserve)
Envoy is one of the only airlines in the regional pool that uses the outdated Airport Standby system. At Envoy, these shifts are 8 hours long. This does not result in more compensation, other than the lousy $1.90/hour that you can expect to receive in per diem (which is taxed, btw). I don't know about you, but personally, I love sitting around for hours at the airport doing absolutely nothing.

20) No Long Call
Almost every airline in the industry uses a system of Long Call Reserve. Essentially, you will have a 12 - 24 hour call out prior to your show time for a flight. Don’t expect this at Envoy. Our pilots are extremely bitter about this and we don’t see it changing anytime soon.

21) Escalating RAP to Standby
What this means is that you can expect to be called in to sit Standby, even if you were on a RAP (2-hour call out). Other airlines have an escalation clause, which allows for more compensation when you were originally scheduled to work a 2-hour call out reserve assignment. This essentially forces the airline to pay for their poor reserve planning by adding more compensation to a pilot who experiences this phenomenon. Don’t expect Envoy to ever pay you for their poor planning. What you should expect is to sit standby for a decent amount of reserve shifts. Sounds fun, right?

Final Reserve Thoughts:
There’s much more than what I’ve shared here, but this is a decent introduction to the pain that you will experience on reserve if you join Envoy.

The Company and the Union recently got together to revamp these Reserve Rules. After months of negotiations, the company sent a lowball offer to the Union with many concessions for the pilot group. When this was overwhelmingly rejected by the pilots, the company retreated into its shell like a three-year old that didn’t get a cookie after dinner. As was described to me by a representative of the union: the company put the union on notice that they refuse to negotiate with the pilot group regarding reserve. The company thinks that their reserve system is entirely acceptable.

Rotorcraft Transition Pilots (RTP):
If you’re still reading this, you most likely have already made up your mind that Envoy is not for you. Let’s say that you still believe that Envoy’s RTP program is still a viable option. I strongly advise you to look elsewhere, as most regional airlines now have these programs.

The company that contracts with Envoy to do the flight training for this transition is about 12-18 months backed up at the moment. Expect to wait a very long time to enter the program. You will be at the bottom of the seniority list.

If you’re in the military, you’ve undoubtedly heard how awful and disorganized the training program is at this contractor.

If you’re looking at company to Envoy and joining the Rotorcraft Transition Program, please ask around within your unit and other units. The research may save you from making the jump into a miserable career with a dismal airline.

Cadet Instructors:
If you’re thinking about joining this program, then you should think again. It could take you a year or two to earn the hours needed to progress to a regional. This industry is very dynamic: what is great today, will not be great tomorrow.

With that being said, it is a decent perk to receive Flight and other benefits such as Medical, Dental, Vision and 401k. However, these come at an exorbitant cost. If you decide to leave Envoy when you have reached your ATP minimums, you will incur a $5000 penalty to “buy-out” your contract.

I highly recommend you do your due diligence before you sign a contract with this airline.


In closing, the trend that Envoy as an airline is experiencing is downward in nature. Due to the current corporate culture and management, you can expect tomorrow to be worse than today.

I welcome your response and input. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions on a personal level. I will be happy to answer them.
1. Yes they are metering it, but people are flowing and it is expected to pickup in 2018. I get it though, it isn't delivering like it was hyped.

2. and 2a. I cant speak to as I am on the 175.

3. I find the flight benefits are pretty decent. I commute and have only had one commuter policy last year. As for traveling outside of work, the wife and mother in law use it often to get to Chicago and I think they have only had one bad experience, and honestly it was due to an aircraft maintenance issue in Philly compounded by crappy weather in Chicago. Cant really blame AA for that one.

I will agree however that the oversold issue is reaching an epic level, thankfully I commute on the 321 mostly and it has two jumps. Even so, I only JS about 30% of the time.

4. Agreed on pay and have written the union on it. The response I get from them is that management thinks the flow is strong enough to not require pay increases.

5. I have heard this, however I have not seen it, although admittedly I haven't checked. lol, perhaps I should audit my pay from last year. I am under the impression the union has a spreadsheet tool to do this with.

6. Rumor.

7. Haven't been junior manned a single time and most I have spoken to say once or twice in the years they have been working there.

8. True, the contract, especially in the case of crew scheduling is a loose document. If you don't know your rights, CS will take advantage of it.

9. Cant speak to it as I haven't used it. I will say day 4 seems to have the most brutal trips though, a day when people are very reluctant to use it. However, I haven't flown exhausted or witnessed an unsafe act related to sleep.

10. Havent upgraded yet, but have friends who have been "forced" to upgrade. It sucks for them mainly because they chose Envoy due to living in Dallas and now they have to commute, the one thing they didn't want to ever do for a regional.

11. Training is training, Envoy puts a huge burden on its Captains to get new hires up to speed. Not fair, but it seems to be working out.

12. True, DH pay sucks. In addition, we seem to be getting a lot of long sits, which we get paid zero for. This needs to change.

13. No idea, thankfully.

14. Have to say this is false, as in 100% false. I developed an upper respiratory infection in July that required I call out for three trips that month due to complications. Upon my probationary review, we discussed them and they where noted. I am off probation with a job still. It would be foolish for an airline to punish for such a thing. It would be a lawsuit waiting to happen. She did however say I had great feedback from my probey reports, so maybe that had something to do with it.

15, 16, 17, 18. All 100% agreed.

Reserve does suck and we are known for having some of the worst rules. However, I only had 3 weeks of true reserve so I cant complain. This is not the case now though as I have friends that came after me that have been sitting for months now. I got lucky.

There are not enough strong points to come here as a new pilot, or at least be a slam dunk. The Endeavor move really opened my eyes as to how it could be. However, myself personally haven't had to deal with too many bad things here. I have been treated well for the most part, crew scheduling aside, although they seem to be improving as of late. In addition, I was fortunate enough to get the 175 and haven't had to deal with many of your points. Perhaps I have been lucky, perhaps I appreciate being able to do this job.

The contract needs work, there is no getting around that.

Pedro4President
01-03-2018, 05:59 AM
1. Yes they are metering it, but people are flowing and it is expected to pickup in 2018. I get it though, it isn't delivering like it was hyped.

2. and 2a. I cant speak to as I am on the 175.

3. I find the flight benefits are pretty decent. I commute and have only had one commuter policy last year. As for traveling outside of work, the wife and mother in law use it often to get to Chicago and I think they have only had one bad experience, and honestly it was due to an aircraft maintenance issue in Philly compounded by crappy weather in Chicago. Cant really blame AA for that one.

I will agree however that the oversold issue is reaching an epic level, thankfully I commute on the 321 mostly and it has two jumps. Even so, I only JS about 30% of the time.

4. Agreed on pay and have written the union on it. The response I get from them is that management thinks the flow is strong enough to not require pay increases.

5. I have heard this, however I have not seen it, although admittedly I haven't checked. lol, perhaps I should audit my pay from last year. I am under the impression the union has a spreadsheet tool to do this with.

6. Rumor.

7. Haven't been junior manned a single time and most I have spoken to say once or twice in the years they have been working there.

8. True, the contract, especially in the case of crew scheduling is a loose document. If you don't know your rights, CS will take advantage of it.

9. Cant speak to it as I haven't used it. I will say day 4 seems to have the most brutal trips though, a day when people are very reluctant to use it. However, I haven't flown exhausted or witnessed an unsafe act related to sleep.

10. Havent upgraded yet, but have friends who have been "forced" to upgrade. It sucks for them mainly because they chose Envoy due to living in Dallas and now they have to commute, the one thing they didn't want to ever do for a regional.

11. Training is training, Envoy puts a huge burden on its Captains to get new hires up to speed. Not fair, but it seems to be working out.

12. True, DH pay sucks. In addition, we seem to be getting a lot of long sits, which we get paid zero for. This needs to change.

13. No idea, thankfully.

14. Have to say this is false, as in 100% false. I developed an upper respiratory infection in July that required I call out for three trips that month due to complications. Upon my probationary review, we discussed them and they where noted. I am off probation with a job still. It would be foolish for an airline to punish for such a thing. It would be a lawsuit waiting to happen. She did however say I had great feedback from my probey reports, so maybe that had something to do with it.

15, 16, 17, 18. All 100% agreed.

Reserve does suck and we are known for having some of the worst rules. However, I only had 3 weeks of true reserve so I cant complain. This is not the case now though as I have friends that came after me that have been sitting for months now. I got lucky.

There are not enough strong points to come here as a new pilot, or at least be a slam dunk. The Endeavor move really opened my eyes as to how it could be. However, myself personally haven't had to deal with too many bad things here. I have been treated well for the most part, crew scheduling aside, although they seem to be improving as of late. In addition, I was fortunate enough to get the 175 and haven't had to deal with many of your points. Perhaps I have been lucky, perhaps I appreciate being able to do this job.

The contract needs work, there is no getting around that.

Unfortunately 14 is true. Company fired a pilot for calling in sick for the 4th time on his 1 year anniversary. Pilot had notes for all sick call outs. Union said the pilot wasn't on probation. Company said the pilot was still on probation. Still probation or not firing someone for calling out sick is just trouble waiting to happen.

AZPilotMike
01-03-2018, 06:16 AM
Unfortunately 14 is true. Company fired a pilot for calling in sick for the 4th time on his 1 year anniversary. Pilot had notes for all sick call outs. Union said the pilot wasn't on probation. Company said the pilot was still on probation. Still probation or not firing someone for calling out sick is just trouble waiting to happen.

Well like I said, perhaps there were other circumstances to this besides the sick call. I can speak personally to it that they didn't let me go or even really say much about it other than to explain the absences.

3EngineTaxi
01-03-2018, 08:23 AM
Thanks for sharing; it's good to learn your perspective. I hope your transition to the accounting career goes smoothly.

inevitableneb
01-03-2018, 09:56 AM
3 different regionals?

No offense, but you sound like the kind of guy who would stub his toe on a gold brick and complain. You're a non-hacker, who couldn't persevere at 3 different regionals, who is bailing from the industry, and just want to watch the world burn.

No regional is all sunshine and rainbows, but it's a means to an end.

Good luck in accounting....

No, he just has standards on what he will accept and what he will not accept. How he will and will not be treated. Also known as self respect. An attitude which would have revolutionized our industry years ago if held by more pilots. I have heard about what you guys went through years ago, 3 years of reserve, 10 years to upgrade, 20k a year, and I can't figure out why in the world you people stayed.

Cpt Rex Kramer
01-03-2018, 11:11 AM
Over/under on how many years before "hansoolou" is looking to get back into the industry?

Three years at two accounting firms and a tax season at H&R Block

HanSoolu
01-03-2018, 12:30 PM
Three years at two accounting firms and a tax season at H&R Block
The sad part about your statement is that I would much rather take my chances with your scenario than to stick it out with Envoy for things to "get better."

itsmytime
01-03-2018, 01:48 PM
The sad part about your statement is that I would much rather take my chances with your scenario than to stick it out with Envoy for things to "get better."

The real question is, " do you enjoy flying airplanes, or is it just a job?" Because if you enjoy the flying, you will be back. I'm going to assume flying is the only job you've had after college. The corporate world ain't all it's cracked up to be.

I also understand, that people have to find out things for themselves. Many guys have sworn off flying, only to stick their nose back under the tent after seeing that the grass isn't greener on the other side.

ceelo
01-03-2018, 01:52 PM
The sad part about your statement is that I would much rather take my chances with your scenario than to stick it out with Envoy for things to "get better."

honest question: do you even enjoy flying? the fact that you've been at THREE regionals and are finally leaving to pursue your backup dream in accounting tells me that you don't love flying, and it's a good riddance that you've left.

you are not the only person that's had to struggle. there are still thousands of pilots all over the world that go through what you've listed and sometimes worse but still keep fighting because they love flying.

the problem isn't envoy if you've been at three regionals. it's you.

Cpt Rex Kramer
01-03-2018, 02:14 PM
the problem isn't envoy if you've been at three regionals. it's you.

Word - and it's not going to be better sitting in a cubicle sixty hours a week tic'n and tying accounts receivables or filling out some dimwit's $500,000 AGI tax return while you're making $50k.

If one has the idea that an 'accounting' job at one of the big firms, or even a regional one, is about technical accounting or tax issues, or for heavens sake 'delivering value to our clients', you don't have the first clue as to what the profession is about. Let me help you down at least five years of the learning curve: It's all about the billable hour. Period.

So, how do you accelerate that 'accounting' career? Networking, sales skills, polish and bull****. Along the way you'll master 'management' and 'delegation' skills, which means pawning off your work on some chump that hasn't figured it out yet while hiding your own complete lack of technical expertise.

If you think the management at Envoy is bad, you are in for a very very rude awakening.

3EngineTaxi
01-03-2018, 02:17 PM
It isn't admirable or noble to "love flying" and be content with a horrible job because of a "passion for aviation." It is, in fact, a job. Some of us are trying to work toward improvements, although improvements remain unlikely. In my opinion, it remains a less-than-desirable job.

In my opinion, it is a disservice to the profession to make excuses for it's shortcomings. Instead of defending an inferior career, how about some unity toward making improvements?

Good luck to you as you pursue your career.

These are my personal opinions and not the opinions of any entity or employer.

SheepDogg
01-03-2018, 02:34 PM
I agree with HanSoolu. I left envoy for Allegiant 2 years ago and was told what an idiot I was for "walking away from the flow." Looks like I was correct. The flow is bogus and will never work as the envoy recruiters and salesmen claimed it would. I'm in the left seat of the Bus now. Worlds better than anything envoy has to offer.


If by "walked away" you mean fired, then yes you most certainly walked away, while crying if memory serves. I truly hope you enjoy your job at Allegiant, its likely as far as your career will every go in this industry.

itsmytime
01-03-2018, 02:35 PM
It isn't admirable or noble to "love flying" and be content with a horrible job because of a "passion for aviation." It is, in fact, a job. Some of us are trying to work toward improvements, although improvements remain unlikely. In my opinion, it remains a less-than-desirable job.

In my opinion, it is a disservice to the profession to make excuses for it's shortcomings. Instead of defending an inferior career, how about some unity toward making improvements?

Good luck to you as you pursue your career.

These are my personal opinions and not the opinions of any entity or employer.

I agree with you fully. The point is, if you love flying, it's very hard to find satisfaction sitting in a cubicle. Not that you should take whatever scraps are thrown at you.

HanSoolu
01-03-2018, 02:43 PM
the problem isn't envoy if you've been at three regionals. it's you.
You're missing the point of why I wrote this post. It had nothing to do with me. Yes, I found it pertinent to add a bit of my personal history at the beginning, but you are sorely mistaken if you believe that these are my sentiments, and only mine.

If you think the management at Envoy is bad, you are in for a very very rude awakening.
You assume that I had no work experience in the field prior to college. You assume that you're telling me something I don't know.
You are not. This has been a carefully calculated decision. I don't know you, but if you think you know me after reading a couple paragraphs about me, you're mistaken.

To those of you saying that I'm a "whiner:" I am not trying to complain. I'm trying to shed light on what is going on at Envoy. If anything, this is going to help you guys, as less people will be recruited. When recruitment dwindles, you will receive your beloved increase in pay.

Until then, I have no idea why some of you feel like taking your frustrations with the industry out on me.

Please. Either refute my points, add to the discussion, or move along. Attacking me as a person is not solving anything.

ceelo
01-03-2018, 02:56 PM
It isn't admirable or noble to "love flying" and be content with a horrible job because of a "passion for aviation." It is, in fact, a job. Some of us are trying to work toward improvements, although improvements remain unlikely. In my opinion, it remains a less-than-desirable job.

In my opinion, it is a disservice to the profession to make excuses for it's shortcomings. Instead of defending an inferior career, how about some unity toward making improvements?

Good luck to you as you pursue your career.

These are my personal opinions and not the opinions of any entity or employer.

except that everything is getting better. if he doesn't like envoy he should indeed find another better paying job with better QoL if he likes flying. but no, he's been through 3 regionals, so like I said it's better if he just stays out of the industry, because he will never be happy looking for the perfect regional job that frankly doesn't exist.

ceelo
01-03-2018, 02:58 PM
You're missing the point of why I wrote this post. It had nothing to do with me. Yes, I found it pertinent to add a bit of my personal history at the beginning, but you are sorely mistaken if you believe that these are my sentiments, and only mine.

I do agree that envoy isn't the best. but in my opinion envoy is very reactionary. once hiring slows down then yes they'll change.

if you don't want this to be about you, don't add any of your personal history, period. because frankly, you do bring up a lot of good points but your entire post comes off as whining about your life.

I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

HanSoolu
01-03-2018, 03:04 PM
14. Have to say this is false, as in 100% false. I developed an upper respiratory infection in July that required I call out for three trips that month due to complications. Upon my probationary review, we discussed them and they where noted. I am off probation with a job still. It would be foolish for an airline to punish for such a thing. It would be a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Unfortunately, you can't take this to law. See Point #8 about the RLA and System Board of Adjustment. It's an unfortunate reality about the transportation industry.

except that everything is getting better. if he doesn't like envoy he should indeed find another better paying job with better QoL if he likes flying. but no, he's been through 3 regionals, so like I said it's better if he just stays out of the industry, because he will never be happy looking for the perfect regional job that frankly doesn't exist.
Your last point is true. I have no true passion for 121 Flying. I would much prefer to keep it in the world of GA and Flight Instruct on the weekends. Maybe take the wife for a $100 burger every now and then. But the 121 world? It's not for me. I'm looking for a regional that will stay true to what they put on paper. In this day and age, that just doesn't exist.

Your first sentence though. I'm gonna need you to back that up with some evidence.

if you don't want this to be about you, don't add any of your personal history, period. because frankly, you do bring up a lot of good points but your entire post comes off as whining about your life.
I merely did that for those that may be in a similar position. Either career changes, or those getting out of college. But let's be honest: pilots love talking about themselves.

I wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors.
Thank you, and thank you to those that wish me success elsewhere.

3EngineTaxi
01-03-2018, 03:38 PM
except that everything is getting better
What is getting better? Vacation? Pay? Flow? Schedules? Days off? I can't think of anything.

Subpilot
01-03-2018, 03:55 PM
What is getting better? Vacation? Pay? Flow? Schedules? Days off? I can't think of anything.

Going back three years ago:
Commuter hotels
Retention bonuses
High starting salary for FOs
Short upgrade
2 bases returned

There are more but this list covers the big ones that affects the entire group in a “better” way.

ag386
01-03-2018, 03:57 PM
If by "walked away" you mean fired, then yes you most certainly walked away, while crying if memory serves. I truly hope you enjoy your job at Allegiant, its likely as far as your career will every go in this industry.

If it helps you sleep at night to indulge in your fantasy above, by all means knock yourself out.

What's important is that I am no longer at the dirtbag company known as envoy. Like you and your recruiter salesmen like to say here, the legacy floodgates are about to be thrown wide open. I'm thinking my Bus PIC is the same or better than your regional jet PIC.

Hope you enjoy your stay at envoy waiting for that imploding flow. Looks like your wait is going to be quite a few years.

ceelo
01-03-2018, 04:07 PM
Going back three years ago:
Commuter hotels
Retention bonuses
High starting salary for FOs
Short upgrade
2 bases returned

There are more but this list covers the big ones that affects the entire group in a “better” way.

yeah, this is what i meant to everyone asking

moon
01-03-2018, 04:13 PM
If it helps you sleep at night to indulge in your fantasy above, by all means knock yourself out.

What's important is that I am no longer at the dirtbag company known as envoy. Like you and your recruiter salesmen like to say here, the legacy floodgates are about to be thrown wide open. I'm thinking my Bus PIC is the same or better than your regional jet PIC.

Hope you enjoy your stay at envoy waiting for that imploding flow. Looks like your wait is going to be quite a few years.

If you were terminated, I wonder if AA considers you rehireable?

And to original poster. Some gripes were a little overstated but I don't blame you one bit for looking to better your life in or out of aviation. Do what's best for you! Everything you said is a complaint from many here so I don't know why there was so much backlash.

ag386
01-03-2018, 04:20 PM
If you were terminated, I wonder if AA considers you rehireable?

And to original poster. Some gripes were a little overstated but I don't blame you one bit for looking to better your life in or out of aviation. Do what's best for you! Everything you said is a complaint from many here so I don't know why there was so much backlash.

I resigned with two weeks notice and am rehireable. It's a tactic by SheepDogg and his recruiting buddies to deflect from my posts which usually point out the recruiting lies and inconsistencies they put out.

Virga show
01-03-2018, 04:52 PM
I resigned with two weeks notice and am rehireable. It's a tactic by SheepDogg and his recruiting buddies to deflect from my posts which usually point out the recruiting lies and inconsistencies they put out.

Here is a simple point for potential NEW HIRES to consider. If you live in DFW and are willing to wait 6 months to a year in LGA to get back to DFW- I say come to Envoy or Spirit. Once you get back to DFW you will If you will be forced to upgrade and shipped back to LGA. HA! If you don’t live in DFW and can get on with Endeavor.... GO TO ENDEAVOR!!! All the other points of why not to come to Envoy by original poster are mostly valid maybe some exaggeration here and there. Flow is a easy 9 years for a new hire so that shouldn’t even be apart of your equation in coming to Envoy. 2026- 2027 new hire class at AA!!! Good Luck!

bourbon scamp
01-03-2018, 04:59 PM
There are a lot of bitter people on these boards. damn. Oh well, better for my seniority.

itsmytime
01-03-2018, 09:33 PM
Your last point is true. I have no true passion for 121 Flying. I would much prefer to keep it in the world of GA and Flight Instruct on the weekends. Maybe take the wife for a $100 burger every now and then. But the 121 world? It's not for me. I'm looking for a regional that will stay true to what they put on paper. In this day and age, that just doesn't exist.


I think you do have a passion for 121 flying, and are trying to convince yourself otherwise. If not, why did you try 3 different regionals? I get trying a second one to find a better situation, but if you had no passion for the job, you would have hung it up after the second try.

Then you say you are "looking for a regional that will stay true to its word, but it doesn't exist." You state that in the present as if you are still looking for a good regional. The statement also leads to the belief that if said regional were out there, you would be headed to your fourth regional instead of accounting.

Confusing statements for someone with no passion for the job.

SilentLurker
01-04-2018, 12:40 AM
If by "walked away" you mean fired, then yes you most certainly walked away, while crying if memory serves. I truly hope you enjoy your job at Allegiant, its likely as far as your career will every go in this industry.



LMAO at your statement above to the man “That is as far as your career will go in this Industry.” Ok, sure. That’s not a bad position to be in. One can have a great career at Allegiant! HOME EVERY NIGHT as well as Captains earning $200K -$250K/yr take home. Do research. A lot has changed, in pay industry wide. Allegiant pays much higher than Spirit or Frontier “right now”, and that should/will change in a couple months once our ALPA brothers/Sisters at Frontier & Spirit get the Airbus parity raises they deserve. They will match or exceed industry standard.

Better than waiting 15 years for a flow to AA. Ok fine, better than waiting 9 years as a NH for a metered to minimum no interview lazy “FLOW” . We need to step out of the Group Think phenomenon. This industry is changing so fast. More promising careers possible beyond AA/DL/UPS/FedEX/SW ranks. Get out of the regionals, apply to Allegiant-JetBlue-Spirit-Frontier If you have 2yrs to 3+ yrs until no interview “flowing”, are flexible, and can live in other bases. Get your Apps out! Large growth plan & 100+ new aircraft orders (recently announced for Frontier) for example. They are far from a lateral move. It’s upward mobility. Granted they are all Airbus operators, consolidation is possible amongst the 4 carriers.

I don’t need wide-body pay. $250K/yr with good seniority and home every night lots of days off sounds like a great career to me. IIRC:
AirTran—-> Southwest. VirginAmerica—-> Alaska.

Allegiant and LLC/ULLC may be subpar careers to you. Truth is, any of them is better than a Regional Airline (SKYWEST, 5 WOs, TSA Holdings), any of them offers a great career now, or at-least will be, thanks to consolidation and business model changes at 121 Mainline, Cargo, LLC, ULLC operators.

AZPilotMike
01-04-2018, 03:53 AM
Unfortunately, you can't take this to law. See Point #8 about the RLA and System Board of Adjustment. It's an unfortunate reality about the transportation industry.


Fair enough, I will restate. In my experience, I haven't seen them come anywhere near terminating someone for a couple sick calls. I still hold out that there may have been other circumstances involved. I could be wrong though and just got lucky. I will concede that my statement is limited to my experience only.

Best of luck to you, I know this industry can be tough and it breaks people at times. It really shouldn't be this difficult, I cant think of another field that requires its workers to be so defensive on every single point of employment.

Envoy isn't perfect, but they have treated me pretty well, so who knows. However, I came here with the flow as an "oh ****" button of sorts and never intended to make it my default path out of the regionals, so perhaps I view things with a different set of lenses.

I would have zero issue going to work for Allegiant, Sprit or Frontier especially after they get the contract worked out. Smaller list to climb and I suspect more movement. I find little difference in spendable income from someone making mid-career pay at Allegiant in comparison to mid career pay at AA, plus they prob have a much better QOL.

Anyway, good luck to you and yours, I hope you find your way in whatever path you choose. Pilots tend to be the worst to their own kind, which to this day never ceases to amaze me and I feel holds us back far more than it pushes us forward.

TheWeatherman
01-04-2018, 10:05 AM
Thanks for the post. Looks like I dogged a bullet with Envoy.

TheWeatherman
01-04-2018, 10:49 AM
You brought up a lot of good points regarding the negatives of working at Envoy. All while sounding like an entitled little whiny beeyatch. Work on your delivery and more people will take you seriously.
I didn't see anything wrong with his delivery. By this forum's standards, it was a really well written organized post. Didn't come across whiny at all, again by Regional pilot standards.

TheWeatherman
01-04-2018, 11:07 AM
Going back three years ago:
Commuter hotels
Retention bonuses
High starting salary for FOs
Short upgrade
2 bases returned

There are more but this list covers the big ones that affects the entire group in a “better” way.
You mean like it should have always been? You are giving the airlines a break for taking advantage of the Recession by cutting labor costs while making record profits. Now that things are getting back to what they should have been, you considered it better?? You're like one of those Skywest pilots who just voted yes to a contract with little to no raise.

Things are just starting to get back to a respectable level, but we have a long way to go before this community is truly compensated for what they are worth to the national economy.

Subpilot
01-04-2018, 11:23 AM
You mean like it should have always been? You are giving the airlines a break for taking advantage of the Recession by cutting labor costs while making record profits. Now that things are getting back to what they should have been, you considered it better?? You're like one of those Skywest pilots who just voted yes to a contract with little to no raise.

Things are just starting to get back to a respectable level, but we have a long way to go before this community is truly compensated for what they are worth to the national economy.
I just answered a question. To say there have not been improvements over the last three years is dishonest. When I started here, first year pay was $22/hr with none of the aforementioned improvements that we now have.

use2fly
01-04-2018, 11:55 AM
Going back three years ago:
Commuter hotels
Good

Retention bonuses
Why are retention bonuses good? Put it in our pay rate!

High starting salary for FOs
It's temporary, they start out at year 4. The company can put them back on year 1 tomorrow if they want. It's just a way to get them here and then sh** all over them.

Short upgrade
It was a good thing, not so much now. People are being forced into the left seat. Total disregard of seniority by the company.

2 bases returned
Good, but they should have never been closed.


There are more negatives this list covers some of the ones that affect the entire group in a "bad" way.

See bold...

bigtime209
01-04-2018, 01:10 PM
Things have definitely improved from a few years ago, but we still have a long way to. Things that still need to happen:

-Roll in bonuses to permanent pay rates for FOs and raise CA pay to be on par with EDV.

-Return vacation accrual to the way it was pre-2014 TA. It's absolutely absurd that a pilot should have to wait until they're on pay step 8 to see more than 2 weeks of vacation.

-Address QOL issues ranging from poor schedules, an antiquated RSV system, etc...

-Quit trying to achieve this overly ambitious growth plan at the pilots' expense of metered flow and QOL hits (staffing shortfalls, which equal no POs/PVDs, JMs, denial of RSV swaps, etc...). I understand that the desire is to be back to our old size, but it shouldn't be at our expense. Especially since it was corporate greed that ran off 1500+ of our pilots in the first place.

DilsonWic
01-05-2018, 03:38 AM
I’d venture to say the ones “happy” about the “improvements” here have less than 3 years on property.

Envoy12
01-05-2018, 05:12 AM
The people on here saying how they love flying so much are the ones ruining it for everyone. Those people are the ones willing to get paid ******* money because “hey at least I’m flying an airplane for a living”. It is possible to love flying but also want to get paid accordingly and have good QOL. The OP may or may not find that it’s better in the coroporate world but at least he’s willing to try to get a better life for himself. Things are better than they were but they still have a long ways to go. I agree with most of the OP’s post but I disagree about non rev travel and JM’s. Everybody has a different experience though.

Purpleanga
01-05-2018, 05:33 AM
I agree with HanSoolu. I left envoy for Allegiant 2 years ago and was told what an idiot I was for "walking away from the flow." Looks like I was correct. The flow is bogus and will never work as the envoy recruiters and salesmen claimed it would. I'm in the left seat of the Bus now. Worlds better than anything envoy has to offer.

If you went to Allagiant 2 years ago that means you were fired from a job or you had no other options due to circumstances like miscalculations, maybe a lateral regional move not working out and you had to get out. Either way you didn’t have a choice. So don’t make it seem like you know what you’re talking about. 2 years ago, allegiant only hired rejects, convicts and dui cases, glad you got lucky tho...

bigtime209
01-05-2018, 06:16 AM
If you went to Allagiant 2 years ago that means you were fired from a job or you had no other options due to circumstances like miscalculations, maybe a lateral regional move not working out and you had to get out. Either way you didn’t have a choice. So don’t make it seem like you know what you’re talking about. 2 years ago, allegiant only hired rejects, convicts and dui cases, glad you got lucky tho...

And the cold hard truth is that he would've flowed to AA well before he'll actually see the cockpit of a legacy aircraft. He's obviously still bitter about that fact.

Newstick189
01-05-2018, 07:16 AM
And the cold hard truth is that he would've flowed to AA well before he'll actually see the cockpit of a legacy aircraft. He's obviously still bitter about that fact.

I mean, I wouldn't discount the fact that he's sitting left seat at Allegiant. Doing rough math he's making $160k a year right now which I'd rather have than making half that at any regional waiting for my number to get called for the flow.

I'm not an Envoy employee but If Allegiant called I would take the opportunity versus waiting to get my number called.

BarrySeal
01-05-2018, 09:39 AM
where did original poster go ?

he signed up on 01-02-18, created and posted only to this thread, and disappeared.

uncredible

back to regular programming.

Reminder to the f ignorant and stupid: Yes, Envoy is a regional.

Reminder #2- Regional QOL and pay is not the same as mainline/major QOL.

Common APC comments about regionals in general from whiners and crybabies and "me generation"


My regional sucks
They overwork me
Pay sucks
Dispatch/Ops hates Pilots
Commuting sucks
the check airman all suck
management sucks
my regional sucks, how about your regional
any rumor to instant Captain upgrades. I can't wait 1 year
pay sucks
new ATP rule sucks
the CEO's is over focused on making money
regionals suck
am I qualified for Delta
wow I fly too much, this is BS
they expect us to fly
we are treated like employees of some big mammoth company who doesn't care how we feel
this place sucks
if you can pull it off, skip this stage and go direct Delta, Fedex
regional to corporate ? thoughts ?
why do I need a degree, I am cutting my teeth now, that is BS and sucks
I don't suck
military dudes suck
everybody sucks
(hired at XYZ major then....) our pay is lower than ABC Major pay, we suck.

cycle continues until death




Todays regional is jet cockpit Day-1. Years ago, regional new hires flew Jetstreams, Embraer EMB 110 Bandeirantes, Metroliners, or Beech 1900's. Steam gauge cockpits and typically never got above FL 180. Forget long domestic or international trips as a regional pilot. A "long trip" was DFW-MAF in the Saab or DFW-LRD in the ATR.

today, a new regional hire is logging "jet time" (SIC, yes...) from Day-1.

but, Envoy sucks

Virga show
01-05-2018, 11:39 AM
where did original poster go ?

he signed up on 01-02-18, created and posted only to this thread, and disappeared.

uncredible

back to regular programming.

Reminder to the f ignorant and stupid: Yes, Envoy is a regional.

Reminder #2- Regional QOL and pay is not the same as mainline/major QOL.

Common APC comments about regionals in general from whiners and crybabies and "me generation"


My regional sucks
They overwork me
Pay sucks
Dispatch/Ops hates Pilots
Commuting sucks
the check airman all suck
management sucks
my regional sucks, how about your regional
any rumor to instant Captain upgrades. I can't wait 1 year
pay sucks
new ATP rule sucks
the CEO's is over focused on making money
regionals suck
am I qualified for Delta
wow I fly too much, this is BS
they expect us to fly
we are treated like employees of some big mammoth company who doesn't care how we feel
this place sucks
if you can pull it off, skip this stage and go direct Delta, Fedex
regional to corporate ? thoughts ?
why do I need a degree, I am cutting my teeth now, that is BS and sucks
I don't suck
military dudes suck
everybody sucks
(hired at XYZ major then....) our pay is lower than ABC Major pay, we suck.

cycle continues until death




Todays regional is jet cockpit Day-1. Years ago, regional new hires flew Jetstreams, Embraer EMB 110 Bandeirantes, Metroliners, or Beech 1900's. Steam gauge cockpits and typically never got above FL 180. Forget long domestic or international trips as a regional pilot. A "long trip" was DFW-MAF in the Saab or DFW-LRD in the ATR.

today, a new regional hire is logging "jet time" (SIC, yes...) from Day-1.

but, Envoy sucks

Envoy doesn’t suck... I just want to be treated as the rest of the regional industry. I don’t think that is asking too much. Or may be it is. Either way if back in the day you were flying a metro or ATR and your buddy flying for another regional was flying a E175 you would be pi$$ed off and wanting the same. Correct?

Truthanator
01-05-2018, 12:03 PM
entitled snowflake fall hard.

https://media.giphy.com/media/BNXUmpunaU0ZW/giphy.gif

AZPilotMike
01-05-2018, 12:11 PM
where did original poster go ?

he signed up on 01-02-18, created and posted only to this thread, and disappeared.

uncredible

back to regular programming.

Reminder to the f ignorant and stupid: Yes, Envoy is a regional.

Reminder #2- Regional QOL and pay is not the same as mainline/major QOL.

Common APC comments about regionals in general from whiners and crybabies and "me generation"


My regional sucks
They overwork me
Pay sucks
Dispatch/Ops hates Pilots
Commuting sucks
the check airman all suck
management sucks
my regional sucks, how about your regional
any rumor to instant Captain upgrades. I can't wait 1 year
pay sucks
new ATP rule sucks
the CEO's is over focused on making money
regionals suck
am I qualified for Delta
wow I fly too much, this is BS
they expect us to fly
we are treated like employees of some big mammoth company who doesn't care how we feel
this place sucks
if you can pull it off, skip this stage and go direct Delta, Fedex
regional to corporate ? thoughts ?
why do I need a degree, I am cutting my teeth now, that is BS and sucks
I don't suck
military dudes suck
everybody sucks
(hired at XYZ major then....) our pay is lower than ABC Major pay, we suck.

cycle continues until death




Todays regional is jet cockpit Day-1. Years ago, regional new hires flew Jetstreams, Embraer EMB 110 Bandeirantes, Metroliners, or Beech 1900's. Steam gauge cockpits and typically never got above FL 180. Forget long domestic or international trips as a regional pilot. A "long trip" was DFW-MAF in the Saab or DFW-LRD in the ATR.

today, a new regional hire is logging "jet time" (SIC, yes...) from Day-1.

but, Envoy sucks
Well sure, and 100 years ago people got sick and died from simple injuries, doesn't mean we dont want to continually improve upon modern medicine.

Just because things are better now doesn't equate to people wanting improvement being wrong or asking to much. By your logic, things should never change so long as they are better then the worst it had been.

However, all that said, I agree, we are in a pretty great spot as regionals go. Envoy isn't the best in terms of pay, but they are not the worst either. Overall I feel they are a good company in my limited experience. Do I think for a minute they are perfect, hell no.

BarrySeal
01-05-2018, 12:17 PM
Well sure, and 100 years ago people got sick and died from simple injuries, doesn't mean we dont want to continually improve upon modern medicine.

Just because things are better now doesn't equate to people wanting improvement being wrong or asking to much. By your logic, things should never change so long as they are better then the worst it had been.

However, all that said, I agree, we are in a pretty great spot as regionals go. Envoy isn't the best in terms of pay, but they are not the worst either. Overall I feel they are a good company in my limited experience. Do I think for a minute they are perfect, hell no.

ahh, someone who gets it

HanSoolu
01-05-2018, 03:53 PM
where did original poster go ?

he signed up on 01-02-18, created and posted only to this thread, and disappeared.

uncredible

back to regular programming.
Your argument that one shows no credibility in a particular subject because they aren't well known is not just illogical, but just plain stupid.

I stand by my recent comment. If you want my response, then refute my points.

Reminder to the f ignorant and stupid: Yes, Envoy is a regional.
Astute observation. Can you point to who said it wasn't? Can you point to anything that supports the notion that all regionals should have a subpar QOL?

You have added nothing to this thread that hasn't already been said.

Reminder #2- Regional QOL and pay is not the same as mainline/major QOL.
Did anyone say it was supposed to be the other way around? I am presenting FACTS. These are for those that wish to make the decision to come to Envoy. Potential New Hires should be afforded the ability to make an informed decision. Why rob them of that solely because a few people think of us to be "whiners?"

but, Envoy sucks
I never said that, but I'm glad to see that we're finally working toward a common ground.

450knotOffice
01-05-2018, 04:57 PM
Fact of the matter is that ALL the information - good or bad - is readily available.

The unwashed masses did not need you to come in and set the record straight.

Your post was simply a VERY long winded opinion of yours posted as fact. Just because you created numbered paragraphs does not suddenly make your post valid to all who consider working there.

Yours is but one opinion, and everyone has one.

HanSoolu
01-05-2018, 06:13 PM
Fact of the matter is that ALL the information - good or bad - is readily available.
Wouldn't it be great if it was all in one location? Problem solved.

The unwashed masses did not need you to come in and set the record straight.
Seeing as Envoy is still attracting new hires, I respectfully disagree.

Your post was simply a VERY long winded opinion of yours posted as fact. Just because you created numbered paragraphs does not suddenly make your post valid to all who consider working there.
You must not have read the people that agreed between the original post and your post.

Furthermore, the conditions need not apply to ALL pilots for them to be an applicable issue.

If you dispute what I posted as FACT, then back up your claim.

The reason my original post was so long winded is because it utilized something called evidence. Something you have absolutely no shred of, seeing as Envoy doesn't have an Airbus.

I welcome anything that the current pilot's at Envoy refute. But you can't just say "no, you're wrong," and offer no explanation whatsoever.

Yours is but one opinion, and everyone has one.
That's great. If you work at Envoy, I'm sure the new hires would love to hear others (but not yours) as well!


The fact of the matter is this: Few have agreed with me publicly. Many more have sent me direct messages thanking me for writing this post.

The simple fact that one person decided to stay away from Envoy means that my post served a purpose. Maybe it was small, maybe it was big. But people are reading this post. And to me, that's all that matters.

The bottom line is this: given the option to go to Envoy or another regional, I can NOT in good conscience recommend this company.

This is my opinion and I do believe that everyone is entitled to one.

Truthanator
01-05-2018, 06:19 PM
Way to research your career change Zippy. I'm sure you'll be so happy counting paper clips and soap dispensers and deducting "business lunches" for John C. Executive. That will be about as exciting as a beige Chrysler K Car. Your post is about as boring as your degree and next career.

Guys!! I just got back from 2025 and here is a post from HanSoolu in the Boring Accountant Central Forums....

Read Before You Come To Ernst & Yawng

We live in a day and age where information is readily available at our fingertips, yet we’re still able to recruit people to this company based on numerous falsehoods and sometimes even complete scams. I am writing this to try to paint a more accurate picture than our recruiters at Ernst & Yawng seem to be giving our new hires.

After just under 2 years with Ernst & Yawng , I have made the decision to retire from the accounting industry altogether after 5 abysmal years. My experience at three different accounting firms has proven that this sector of accounting is not for me. People will continue to tell you that it gets better. Unfortunately, the grass is not always greener on the other side.

My Bachelor’s Degree is in Accounting. When I graduated, I had the option to continue with Accounting and work towards my CPA with one of the Big Four Accounting Firms. Instead I jumped into aviation without researching it at all and bounced between three different airlines. None of that was my fault. I left after five years to come back to this black hole of numbers, pencils, and despair.
To those of you that are thinking of joining the ranks of the “Elite” at Ernst & Yawng, I strongly urge you to think again before selling your soul to the devil (read: John C. Eeyo).

Before I go to deep into this, I ask to those that respond to please refrain from emotions. My goal is one thing: Whining about my poor choices and thin skin.

Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Come to Ernst & Yawng:

1) Sex is Nonexistent. Nothing. The women are frigid. The guys play Dungeons & Dragons
It won’t take you long at this company to discover that the “Just under 6 years to get to promoted” that the recruiters seem to be touting is a complete lie. The powers that be in management have decided they are more important than us.


I cannot stress this enough: DO NOT COME TO Ernst & Yawng FOR THE HOT GIRLS.

2) You will commute to a cubicle and eat lunch in the same cafeteria for 36 years.
This is mainly for those on the glorious 6th and 7th floor.

Because Ernst & Yawng has so many accountants transfer out, the company forces a decent group of its new hires to work 14 hour days. The recruiters will tell you that it's only during tax season, but they will regularly stop by and tell you they are going to need you to come in on Saturday....mmmmk.


If you’re going to be forced to stare at numbers all day, why not go to an accounting firm that actually cares about its employees and compensates them adequately? *cough*Arthur Andersen*cough*

2a) If you go to the 7th floor, You will be run by someone with little authority to be a manager.
The company has chosen the lowest bidder for the managers job, and that individual is our head accountant, who just so happens to be a Furry and will eventually invite you to the next Furry convention.

Because he is the lowest bidder for the job, expect him to never be in the office when you need him. Also expect him to be completely unhelpful for anything you need.

I once asked for a new stapler (for attaching paper purposes) and was told by this accounting manager that he does not have the proper permissions to give someone a stapler. The manager on the 12th floor hands staplers out to everyone that asks!


3) Pay (Especially our Absurd Bonus Structure)
We’ve all seen the compensation that some accounting firms have been advertising. Those that include Taco Tuesday and the annual Christmas bonus in their “compensation” numbers are pulling wool over your eyes. Let’s forget about that for a moment. As of the end of 2017, Ernst & Young paid a meager $64,750 per year to a first year accountant. I was planning on putting in a pool this year.

5) Expect To Be Underpaid
I decided to make this a different number even though it could have been covered in #4 because it's about pay, but I figured the more bullet points, the more it sounds like I'm intelligent and not just whining again.

6) Expect casual Friday to be taken away at any moment. They hang this over our head every month. God I hate ties.

7) Constant Depression.
If you're new to accounting, you have no idea how monotonous and boring it is.

8) The Company Will Force You to Put Cover Pages On Your TPS Reports
Management is so bad at this company that they have no regard for my feelings. I need a safe space.

This will not get better over time. The corporate culture is in desperate need of a change. Ernst & Yawng managers have a "do it or will get some other pencil pusher" mentality, which always works to the company’s favor. The company knows they won’t be penalized for their wanton and willful violations of the contract.


9) Extra Breaks Will Count Against You
Despite being told during training that you should take a break if you are tired, the company has an approach to taking extra breaks that is unparalleled within this industry. Take an extra break and you will be disciplined for it.

Don’t take my word for it. Ask every single accountant at Ernst & Yawng

You WILL fall asleep at your desk.

10) Forced Weekends
What you’ve heard around the industry is true. Ernst & Yawng is using a little known clause within its labor contract to force accountants to come in on Saturdays. Sometimes Sunday's too.


11) The Sixth Floor is Hell
Not even joking. It sucks so bad. I have to go to the 12th floor to get anything decent out of the vending machines. And you have to listen to Bethany answer the phone louder than any CSR ever. Also, Ed likes to stop by and ask personal questions about your kids.

12) Fired for Calling in Sick
Apparently they expect you to come in and work even when you're sick. They just tell you to wear a mask and "suck it up, it's tax season". If you call in during tax season, you will be fired. I guarantee it.

13) Long Sits
It's accounting. You will sit on your arse for 8-12 hours every day. Because it's accounting, and you sit at the same desk every day. All day. For 30 years.

14) My Desk Sucks


In closing, the trend that Ernst & Yawng as an accounting firm is experiencing is downward in nature. Due to the current corporate culture and management, you can expect tomorrow to be worse than today.

I welcome your response and input. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions on a personal level. I will be happy to answer them.

HanSoolu
01-05-2018, 06:28 PM
Way to research your career change Zippy. I'm sure you'll be so happy counting paper clips and soap dispensers and deducting "business lunches" for John C. Executive. That will be about as exciting as a beige Chrysler K Car. Your post is about as boring as your degree and next career.

Guys!! I just got back from 2025 and here is a post from HanSoolu in the Boring Accountant Central Forums....

Read Before You Come To Ernst & Yawng

We live in a day and age where information is readily available at our fingertips, yet we’re still able to recruit people to this company based on numerous falsehoods and sometimes even complete scams. I am writing this to try to paint a more accurate picture than our recruiters at Ernst & Yawng seem to be giving our new hires.

After just under 2 years with Ernst & Yawng , I have made the decision to retire from the accounting industry altogether after 5 abysmal years. My experience at three different accounting firms has proven that this sector of accounting is not for me. People will continue to tell you that it gets better. Unfortunately, the grass is not always greener on the other side.

My Bachelor’s Degree is in Accounting. When I graduated, I had the option to continue with Accounting and work towards my CPA with one of the Big Four Accounting Firms. Instead I jumped into aviation without researching it at all and bounced between three different airlines. None of that was my fault. I left after five years to come back to this black hole of numbers, pencils, and despair.
To those of you that are thinking of joining the ranks of the “Elite” at Ernst & Yawng, I strongly urge you to think again before selling your soul to the devil (read: John C. Eeyo).

Before I go to deep into this, I ask to those that respond to please refrain from emotions. My goal is one thing: Whining about my poor choices and thin skin.

Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Come to Ernst & Yawng:

1) Sex is Nonexistent. Nothing. The women are frigid. The guys play Dungeons & Dragons
It won’t take you long at this company to discover that the “Just under 6 years to get to promoted” that the recruiters seem to be touting is a complete lie. The powers that be in management have decided they are more important than us.


I cannot stress this enough: DO NOT COME TO Ernst & Yawng FOR THE HOT GIRLS.

2) You will commute to a cubicle and eat lunch in the same cafeteria for 36 years.
This is mainly for those on the glorious 6th and 7th floor.

Because Ernst & Yawng has so many accountants transfer out, the company forces a decent group of its new hires to work 14 hour days. The recruiters will tell you that it's only during tax season, but they will regularly stop by and tell you they are going to need you to come in on Saturday....mmmmk.


If you’re going to be forced to stare at numbers all day, why not go to an accounting firm that actually cares about its employees and compensates them adequately? *cough*Arthur Andersen*cough*

2a) If you go to the 7th floor, You will be run by someone with little authority to be a manager.
The company has chosen the lowest bidder for the managers job, and that individual is our head accountant, who just so happens to be a Furry and will eventually invite you to the next Furry convention.

Because he is the lowest bidder for the job, expect him to never be in the office when you need him. Also expect him to be completely unhelpful for anything you need.

I once asked for a new stapler (for attaching paper purposes) and was told by this accounting manager that he does not have the proper permissions to give someone a stapler. The manager on the 12th floor hands staplers out to everyone that asks!


3) Pay (Especially our Absurd Bonus Structure)
We’ve all seen the compensation that some accounting firms have been advertising. Those that include Taco Tuesday and the annual Christmas bonus in their “compensation” numbers are pulling wool over your eyes. Let’s forget about that for a moment. As of the end of 2017, Ernst & Young paid a meager $64,750 per year to a first year accountant. I was planning on putting in a pool this year.

5) Expect To Be Underpaid
I decided to make this a different number even though it could have been covered in #4 because it's about pay, but I figured the more bullet points, the more it sounds like I'm intelligent and not just whining again.

6) Expect casual Friday to be taken away at any moment. They hang this over our head every month. God I hate ties.

7) Constant Depression.
If you're new to accounting, you have no idea how monotonous and boring it is.

8) The Company Will Force You to Put Cover Pages On Your TPS Reports
Management is so bad at this company that they have no regard for my feelings. I need a safe space.

This will not get better over time. The corporate culture is in desperate need of a change. Ernst & Yawng managers have a "do it or will get some other pencil pusher" mentality, which always works to the company’s favor. The company knows they won’t be penalized for their wanton and willful violations of the contract.


9) Extra Breaks Will Count Against You
Despite being told during training that you should take a break if you are tired, the company has an approach to taking extra breaks that is unparalleled within this industry. Take an extra break and you will be disciplined for it.

Don’t take my word for it. Ask every single accountant at Ernst & Yawng

You WILL fall asleep at your desk.

10) Forced Weekends
What you’ve heard around the industry is true. Ernst & Yawng is using a little known clause within its labor contract to force accountants to come in on Saturdays. Sometimes Sunday's too.


11) The Sixth Floor is Hell
Not even joking. It sucks so bad. I have to go to the 12th floor to get anything decent out of the vending machines. And you have to listen to Bethany answer the phone louder than any CSR ever. Also, Ed likes to stop by and ask personal questions about your kids.

12) Fired for Calling in Sick
Apparently they expect you to come in and work even when you're sick. They just tell you to wear a mask and "suck it up, it's tax season". If you call in during tax season, you will be fired. I guarantee it.

13) Long Sits
It's accounting. You will sit on your arse for 8-12 hours every day. Because it's accounting, and you sit at the same desk every day. All day. For 30 years.

14) My Desk Sucks


In closing, the trend that Ernst & Yawng as an accounting firm is experiencing is downward in nature. Due to the current corporate culture and management, you can expect tomorrow to be worse than today.

I welcome your response and input. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions on a personal level. I will be happy to answer them.

I'm trying to determine if you think that this is not the same at all accounting firms. Because the information I posted about Envoy does NOT apply across the board at all regionals.

Clever satire though, I will give you that.

IFlyYoGirl
01-05-2018, 06:39 PM
I used to work for a big four accounting firm, and I decided to leave to be a pilot. After 2 years as a CFI, I would sooner go back there and sit at my desk job than go to Envoy.

Truthanator
01-05-2018, 06:56 PM
Hey, I get it. This country is filled to the brim with sheep that shuffle with the herd to the same dull job 5, 6, or 7 days a week. I quit a desk job to do this back when first year pay at the regional airlines was 20 bucks an hour. It was the smartest decision I've ever made.

Some people aren't willing to tough it out for a few years. I did. Now I work 10 days a month and make 200k/yr.
I worked my ass off to get here. I endured more BS than your pathetic whiny post x10.

Go trudge to your office every day and pretend you won't be whining about it just like this in 5 years.

I'm gonna be skinny dipping in Bora Bora.:cool:

3EngineTaxi
01-05-2018, 07:52 PM
Some people aren't willing to tough it out for a few years. I did. Now I work 10 days a month and make 200k/yr.
I'm assuming you're just trolling, but just in case you are real, where do you work?

450knotOffice
01-05-2018, 08:27 PM
I'm assuming you're just trolling, but just in case you are real, where do you work?

200k per year is easy at any of the reputable majors as a relatively junior narrowbody FO. As for working ten days per month, that’s easy too if you’re on Reserve. I willingly bid Reserve last year for a few months because they only called me for a trip about one to two times per month. Sometimes three. The trips were almost always two of three days. LOTS of time at home.

450knotOffice
01-05-2018, 09:15 PM
Wouldn't it be great if it was all in one location? Problem solved.

All of “it” as YOU see it. That’s not information. That’s YOUR biased opinion. Your post is totally slanted toward how YOU view your experience.


Seeing as Envoy is still attracting new hires, I respectfully disagree.

So your goal is actually not to give unbiased information, but rather to steer people away based on YOUR ooinion.


You must not have read the people that agreed between the original post and your post.

There were quite a few who agreed that Envoy has issues. No kidding. Every airline does - especially at the Regional level. You’ve admitted to Envoy being your third in five years, so this should not have been a surprise to you.

Furthermore, the conditions need not apply to ALL pilots for them to be an applicable issue.

There ARE issues there. No doubt. I put up with them for two decades. Much worse crap than you ever experienced. Name ONE Regional that does not have “issues”. In fact, all of the mainlines have “issues” too. Every company does. However, I took the good with the bad and realized that I loved my job in an overall sense, and nobody was forcing me to work there. I could leave at any time, yet I stuck around. I wasnt a complainer then and never have been. First World problems.

If you dispute what I posted as FACT, then back up your claim.

I’ll get to that in another post. Some of your “facts” are just wrong, and others are just a matter of what’s important and what’s not in the overall scheme to any given individual.

The reason my original post was so long winded is because it utilized something called evidence. Something you have absolutely no shred of, seeing as Envoy doesn't have an Airbus.

Evidence? In your world, your opinions are evidence? I worked for Eagle - now Envoy - for twenty two years. I left more than four years ago. I still have PLENTY of friends who work there. I know what’s happening there - good and bad. I pay attention because I still have friends there. Not only that, with regard to travel bennies, you and I are equals, yet somehow my wife and I have little problem traveling. Never have. In fact, nether do my D3 friends. Is it tougher these days than twenty years ago? For sure. However, persistence and flexibility are key there.

I welcome anything that the current pilot's at Envoy refute. But you can't just say "no, you're wrong," and offer no explanation whatsoever.

I offered none, because I didn’t feel like being drawn into a tit for tat with you. But I will if you want. I’ll go there. Not that I say it’s perfect, mind you, or even good in some respects, but it’s not as bad overall as you make it out to be. Well, maybe it is for you. However, as said, your own opinion in the matter is only YOUR opinion. It’s not fact.


That's great. If you work at Envoy, I'm sure the new hires would love to hear others (but not yours) as well!


The fact of the matter is this: Few have agreed with me publicly. Many more have sent me direct messages thanking me for writing this post.

Good for you. I’m sure you feel validated.


The simple fact that one person decided to stay away from Envoy means that my post served a purpose. Maybe it was small, maybe it was big. But people are reading this post. And to me, that's all that matters.

So you convinced a few people to move on. So what? They’ll get the same general experience at Regional B or C. Refute that? Well, I have friends at the mighty Skywest who complain as vociferously as those at Envoy. Same at Endeavor.

The bottom line is this: given the option to go to Envoy or another regional, I can NOT in good conscience recommend this company.

Great. Opinion noted. It is, however , YOUR take on the matter, based on how YOU feel about your employment at Envoy. Others will have different opinions.

This is my opinion and I do believe that everyone is entitled to one.

Absolutely! Glad you admit that.


Not everyone is a match for every company or industry. You apparently are not a match for the airline industry. No worries. It is what it is. But don’t create a HUGE diatribe about why you dislike a company you work for, and then call it fact. It’s fact in your opinion only. Others may feel totally different while working for the same company in the same capacity.

bigtime209
01-05-2018, 09:51 PM
Maybe we can make things simple. If a guy wants to be an accountant, maybe it's alright for him to be an accountant. If a guy wants to go work at Envoy, maybe it's alright to go work at Envoy. To each his own.

450knotOffice
01-06-2018, 12:11 AM
Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Come to Envoy:

1) Flow is Nonexistent. Metered. And Completely Unacceptable

Well, of course. EVERYONE other than a recruiter should be aware of this tidbit. Flow is a back pocket last resort option in this day and age. Most pilots should be able to move on well before the flow would get you to AA. It’s a recruiting tool, andcthets all. However, it’s not a reason NOT to fly for Envoy.

2) You will commute to New York
This is mainly for those on the glorious 145.

Because New York has so many pilots transfer out, the company forces a decent group of its new hires to New York. The recruiters will tell you that you can transfer out in the next quarterly vacancy bid - but don’t think that you won’t be commuting there for at least six months.

Oh lord help you. You have to commute somewhere for six months or maybe more. Cry me a river. There are literally thousands of pilots at the majors and regionals (me included) who’ve commuted for a Regional at some time or multiple times in their career, spanning YEARS, not months. Your complaint falls on deaf ears.

Even if you’re lucky enough to avoid getting awarded NFE straight out of indoc, you will end up being sent there Involuntarily on TDY at least once throughout your career at Envoy.

Again, been there, done that more times than I can count, and every pilot I know who’s been in this business for more than a few years can say the same. Again, cry me a river. Btdt. It’s the nature of the business.

If you’re going to be forced to New York, why not go to an airline that actually cares about its employees and compensates them adequately? *cough*Endeavor*cough*

Yea, in THIS moment in time. This dynamic always changes. And really, that’s how it should be. It’s what leads to PATTERN bargaining. We leapfrog each other for gains.

2a) If you go to New York, You will be run by someone with little authority to be a Chief Pilot
The company has chosen the lowest bidder for the Job in NY, and that individual is our Chief Pilot, who just so happens to be a first officer on the CRJ (mind you, a plane that doesn’t even exist in New York).

Because he is the lowest bidder for the job, expect him to never be in the office when you need him. Also expect him to be completely unhelpful for anything you need.

I once asked for access to Res (for commuting purposes) and was told by this Chief Pilot that he does not have the proper permissions to give someone that access. Ask the CPO in ORD or DFW and you will most likely have access to Res within the next few hours.

Yep. This story is as old as the hills, man. It’ll never change - at ANY airline. AA has good chiefs and bad chiefs. Eagle did too when i was there. Again, NOT a reason to reject a potential employer.

3) Flight Benefits Are Worth Very Little
This mainly applies to all regionals, but I believe AAG to have flight benefits that are a steaming pile of *******.

So you want to go to San Diego for a weekend? Good luck getting on a plane to get out there....
(Edited for brevity)

Not always true. With some planning and flexibility, even D3’s can move around with few issues. Case in point:
My friends who travel as D3’s just spent three weeks traveling from RTB-MIA-YYZ, then YYZ-ORD-LAS, then LAS-PHX-PVR, then PVR-DFW-RTB. They didn’t get bumped even once. Eight legs in a row. Hubs. Christmas/New Year season. Yes, they’ve been bumped on occasion, but have usually made it out the same day. Occasionally the next. Hell, that’s been the case with Non-revs at all airlines basically forever. We’re space available standbys, right? Always have been. Nothing new.
As for commuting for Envoy? Well, again, I did that for years. Years. I commuted to some tough cities to commute to: JFK from MIA, DFW from MIA, ORD from LAX, DFW from LAX, etc. almost always, I could get a seat or a jumpseat. On the occasions when it wasn’t gonna happen, I found backups. In years of commuting, I had maybe twice when I had to call CS to say, no bueno. And that was as an Eagle pilot. Any AA pilot could and did bump me. Minor inconvenience in the grand scheme, though.


4) Pay (Especially our Absurd Bonus Structure)
(Edited again, for brevity)

I cannot refute the odd pay structures now in place at some (many) regionals these days. The only thing I can say is I survived and thrived with compensation WAY lower than anything Envoy FO’s get these days. I was and am married (to the same wonderful woman), so we always had a two income family. Not that her income of 35k in the 90’s plus my income of anywhere from 15k to 45k was all that much, but it did allow us to own a small house in South Florida with a pool and to live happily. We even travelled occasionally to the Bahamas or the Turks and Caicos or to Cancun, and even to Paris, Rome, and London, and had fun. We budgeted and made it work.
However, as I’ve said, the pay structure is odd these days. It should just be contractual pay rates. I’ll give you that, for sure.

5) Expect To Be Underpaid
I kept track of myself, and five others’ Flight Schedules and determined that after a period of three months, in 14 out of 15 months, we were underpaid. One of these Pay Audits resulted in more than $1200 that was not paid to said pilot.

This isn’t a freak occurrence. Almost everyone at this airline has a story about how Pay Comp has stiffed them of their hard-earned money.
(Edited for brevity)

I won’t refute this. Happens at AA too. However, I’ve heard it happens elsewhere too. Keep an eye on your pay stub.


6) Expect a Merger with Piedmont in the Near Future

If you need a reason for why this is bad for a pilot group, do a quick google search.

Not much to say, other than I’ve experienced a few mergers. Not the end of the world in any way for me.

7) Constant Junior Manning
If you’re new to aviation, this is a basic rundown on what “Junior Manning” involves:

Originally intended to be a way for employers to extend pilots out of base due to weather or other unforeseen operational irregularities, “Junior Manning” essentially allows a company to extend a pilot past his original sign-out time, in exchange for compensation.

At Envoy, this means the greater of what was flown at 200%, or 4 hours at the pilot’s normal hourly rate.

Okay, so you have to fly a little extra. What’s the big deal? The big deal is that you will be extended into an additional overnight when you planned to be back home with your wife and kids. All in exchange for $151. That’s pretty awful.

This happened to me 10 times in 2017. This is not an anomaly throughout the system. This company is understaffed and you will become an indentured servant by signing with them.

This is definitely a problem, but your take on it is a bit dramatic. I’d have to ask my friends, but I don’t believe most have been JM’d into overnights on days off ten times per year. I’m sure it happens though.

8) The Company Will Violate the Contract
Management is so bad at this company that they have no regard for the labor contracts and the agreements they make with the union. Although related to number 1 (see above) this is a rampant problem throughout Envoy.

This will not get better over time. The corporate culture is in desperate need of a change. Envoy managers have a “fly it and grieve it” mentality, which always works to the company’s favor. The company knows they won’t be penalized for their wanton and willful violations of the contract. They would much rather take their chances with a System Board of Adjustment, mainly because it is much easier to screw over employees and pay off an Arbitrator than to upset a few customers.

Violations of the contract take no skin out of Envoy’s back because the grievance system is rigged in their favor. Envoy does not have to appear in a Court of Law for Breach of Contract. Pedro and Ric will always defer to “Fly It and Grieve It.” This type of abuse of process was never the intent Railway Labor Act.

Yes, this sucks. With that said, welcome to the entire airline industry. It’s a plague everywhere, nowadays.

9) Fatigue Calls Will Count Against You
Despite being told during training that you should call out fatigued if you are tired, the company has an approach to “Fatiguing Out” that is unparalleled within this industry. Call out tired and you will be disciplined for it.

Don’t take my word for it. Ask every single pilot at Envoy how this works. The families of Colgan Air 3407 would be appalled to hear how Envoy treats its pilots when they invoke FAR 117.

You WILL fly tired at Envoy.

Seems like something the Feds should be made aware of. I’m a bit leery of that claim though, considering the feds would have a field day with Envoy if this were really as bad as you make it out to be. AA doesn’t mess with this because of the fear of the feds, so why would a division within the same corporation push the fed’s envelope?

10) Forced Upgrades
What you’ve heard around the industry is true. Envoy is using a little known clause within its labor contract to force pilots to upgrade, even if they don’t feel ready to do so.

And when you are forced to upgrade, guess where you're going: LGA.

Expect backlash if you come to Envoy with legal upgrade minimums and decline to do so due to personal reasons or safety.

If you’re wondering if you will be put in this position, I recommend that you review FAR 121.436.

A first for me. People complaining that they have to upgrade. That’s a twist I could not have imagined when it took me seven years to upgrade.

11) Training Is Subpar at Best
The training at Envoy is among the worst in the industry. They are so backed-up that you can expect to be in the school house for 3-6 months.

How does a training backup relate to QUALITY of training? It took me four months to train as an initial new hire in a Jetstream turboprop because of training backlogs, but that did not equate to POOR training. In fact, it was excellent. It always was so in all my years there. Time does not equate to quality.

There are few instructors who are actually good at their jobs. Most of them are there to earn a paycheck and have done the bare minimum to become qualified on the fleet that they teach.

If you have a question, expect an instructor to respond that they don’t know. I have personally been told that an instructor will ask around and have an answer for me within the next day or so. I still don’t know the answer to that question.

Really? C’mon. This happens. Not everyone knows every answer. They need to ask around sometimes. It happens. Ok, so he or she forgot you. Call them back to get an answer. Stuff happens sometimes, and good people will forget things at times.

Envoy is also hiring PSIs (Non-Line Qualified Simulator Instructors) that are some of the worst teachers in the industry. Some of them have never flown an EFIS aircraft. This leads to immense frustration on the student’s part.

I can’t address this issue, because we rarely had instructors who were less than excellent while I was there. Occasionally, yes, but they were usually run out eventually.

As long as Allen Hill is the Director of Flight Training at Envoy, you can expect the training to be among the worst in the industry.

He ran a good training Dept when I was there. Not sure why or even IF this has changed. Maybe it has, but considering your overall negative tone, I’m skeptical.

12) Deadhead Pay is 75%
For those of you new to the industry, deadheading will be a part of life. A deadhead happens when a flight crew member is repositioned as part of their trip sequence. E.g.: A pilot ends a flight in CMH and needs to be flow as a passenger to ORD to fly the rest of their trip.

Imagine that you are required to be at work, but you aren’t paid for being there. This is the life of an Envoy Pilot. You will be used inefficiently (see 15 below).

Would be nice to be paid 100% DH pay, for sure, but I’ll only add that we were paid 50% when I was there. Not great, but not a deal killer either.

13) CRJ is Hell
If you have the misfortune of being assigned to the CRJ straight out of Indoc, you can expect your Quality of Life to be horrible for the foreseeable future.

This is a dying fleet. And because of that, pilots will sit reserve for 3-6 months.

Wait?! What?! I sat 2 years and 4 months on Reserve as an FO before I saw my first composite line. A few months later I finally got my first hard line. lol! Sorry, no sympathy at all. 3-6 months. lol!

There are pilots at Envoy on the CRJ that have flown a little under 200 hours after 1 year with the company. These are pilots who want to fly. As long as this fleet continues to die, you can expect the reserve list to grow more and more, and you can expect to sit reserve in Chicago for many more months.

I flew 73 hours in my first 6 months on Reserve at Eagle. Again, no sympathy

14) Fired for Being Sick
Call in sick during your probationary period and expect to be fired. Even if you have a Doctor’s Note. This is nothing new. Every year there is a purge of pilots for sick calls. The most notable of these terminations being a Union Representative named Neal.

“In what can only be described as a violation of privacy, the company hired a private investigator to follow and take photos of Neal outside of work, during a period he was ill and unable to perform his duties in accordance with common sense and FAA medical regulations for pilots.”

You can read more here: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-98504.html

As most know, there is WAY more to this story.

Expect this to continue for as long as Pedro and Ric are in charge.

15) Long Sits
Envoy is so inefficient that it schedules long sits - upwards of 3 hours - for its pilots when trip sequences are made. If there truly was a pilot shortage, they would not be scheduling pilots to sit at the airport to do nothing for hours on end.

This sucks, for sure, but again, btdt. It’s not the end of the world.

This wouldn’t be that much of an issue if the company was willing to pay a minimum daily guarantee for pilots, but they refuse to do so.

Do you like making $80 for working a 6 hour day? Come to Envoy, where you’re bound to have this happen monthly!

Agreed, but your union needs to negotiate rigs, something that has traditionally proven difficult atvthe regional level. I hope you can eventually.

16) AA gives the Table Scraps of Flying
The long sits that I mentioned above will continue because big brother AAG continues to give the table scraps of its regional flying to Envoy. The company cannot figure out how to patch these flights together to make a logical sequence, so you’re stuck with the long sits as mentioned above.

Nothing to say here really. It sucks but is what it is. Hopefully that improves

17) Benefits Cost More for Pilots than Any Other Workforce
Although it isn’t too much more of a difference, it just goes to show how valued you are as a pilot. Even the Rampers get ]their medical benefits at a cheaper price than us pilots do.

They make less too.

18) Midday Flying is Nonexistent
Because of these table scraps, you can expect to fly either early in the morning or late at night. Meanwhile your peers at Republic, Mesa, Skywest, etc. will have 0800 shows and will be done flying for the day at 1700 or 1800. If you like waking up before 0400, or staying awake past 0300 because you got extended, then Envoy is the airline for you!

Hopefully this will change for you. With that said, I rarely see daylight at mainline. All-nighters are my and many other pilots’ normal life. Welcome to a taste of mainline life.

Specifics To Reserve:
I can’t speak too deeply into this as I was on Reserve for a very minuscule part of my stint at Envoy. However, the general consensus of the Pilots at Envoy believe that the Reserve system is in a dire need of an overhaul. I will do my best to highlight specifics below.

19) Airport Standby (or Ready Reserve)
Envoy is one of the only airlines in the regional pool that uses the outdated Airport Standby system. At Envoy, these shifts are 8 hours long. This does not result in more compensation, other than the lousy $1.90/hour that you can expect to receive in per diem (which is taxed, btw). I don't know about you, but personally, I love sitting around for hours at the airport doing absolutely nothing.

Cant argue there. I hated Airport standby. However, it was typically the lot of the super junior or the pilot who WANTED it.

20) No Long Call
Almost every airline in the industry uses a system of Long Call Reserve. Essentially, you will have a 12 - 24 hour call out prior to your show time for a flight. Don’t expect this at Envoy. Our pilots are extremely bitter about this and we don’t see it changing anytime soon.

Can’t say I disagree. Hello bankruptcy contract. That HAS to be changed.

21) Escalating RAP to Standby
What this means is that you can expect to be called in to sit Standby, even if you were on a RAP (2-hour call out). Other airlines have an escalation clause, which allows for more compensation when you were originally scheduled to work a 2-hour call out reserve assignment. This essentially forces the airline to pay for their poor reserve planning by adding more compensation to a pilot who experiences this phenomenon. Don’t expect Envoy to ever pay you for their poor planning. What you should expect is to sit standby for a decent amount of reserve shifts. Sounds fun, right?

Nope. Seems I lived it though. I survived without permanent emotional scars. With that said, another thing you guys need changed, for sure.

Final Reserve Thoughts:
There’s much more than what I’ve shared here, but this is a decent introduction to the pain that you will experience on reserve if you join Envoy.

The Company and the Union recently got together to revamp these Reserve Rules. After months of negotiations, the company sent a lowball offer to the Union with many concessions for the pilot group. When this was overwhelmingly rejected by the pilots, the company retreated into its shell like a three-year old that didn’t get a cookie after dinner. As was described to me by a representative of the union: the company put the union on notice that they refuse to negotiate with the pilot group regarding reserve. The company thinks that their reserve system is entirely acceptable.

I’m not surprised, however, most other regionals have similar management attitudes too. This is not solely an Envoy problem

Rotorcraft Transition Pilots (RTP):
If you’re still reading this, you most likely have already made up your mind that Envoy is not for you. Let’s say that you still believe that Envoy’s RTP program is still a viable option. I strongly advise you to look elsewhere, as most regional airlines now have these programs.

The company that contracts with Envoy to do the flight training for this transition is about 12-18 months backed up at the moment. Expect to wait a very long time to enter the program. You will be at the bottom of the seniority list.

If you’re in the military, you’ve undoubtedly heard how awful and disorganized the training program is at this contractor.

If you’re looking at company to Envoy and joining the Rotorcraft Transition Program, please ask around within your unit and other units. The research may save you from making the jump into a miserable career with a dismal airline.

Cadet Instructors:
If you’re thinking about joining this program, then you should think again. It could take you a year or two to earn the hours needed to progress to a regional. This industry is very dynamic: what is great today, will not be great tomorrow.

With that being said, it is a decent perk to receive Flight and other benefits such as Medical, Dental, Vision and 401k. However, these come at an exorbitant cost. If you decide to leave Envoy when you have reached your ATP minimums, you will incur a $5000 penalty to “buy-out” your contract.

I highly recommend you do your due diligence before you sign a contract with this airline.

These programs did not exist when I was there, so I’ll take your word for it, I suppose. However, as I’ve mentioned, you have such a negative opinion on all matters Envoy, that I’m a bit skeptical regarding the degree of what you say

In closing, the trend that Envoy as an airline is experiencing is downward in nature. Due to the current corporate culture and management, you can expect tomorrow to be worse than today.

There are a lot of pilots who work at Envoy, and who are on this forum, in this thread, who seem to disagree with you in an overall sense. Yes, there’s a LOT of work to do, it seems, but it certainly doesn’t seem to be an awful abomination of a job either. It’s all in how you look at it, and what you expect of it. In my eyes, it was never perfect, but overall, I enjoyed the job enough to never entertain leaving, unless it was upward to a mainline. I enjoyed the people I worked with, and the camaraderie. I gained many friends who I still keep in touch with. My wife and I lived comfortably and usually travelled worldwide in first class comfort for next to nothing compared to what even the coach pax paid for their cramped miserable seats (it was always much easier to upgrade internationally than domestically due to vastly fewer upgraders heading overseas).

I welcome your response and input. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions on a personal level. I will be happy to answer them.

Damnit. This took me all night. Never again. But I was too deep in to hit the delete key.
🙄

Pedro4President
01-06-2018, 01:56 AM
Damnit. This took me all night. Never again. But I was too deep in to hit the delete key.
🙄

Lol. Sometimes it's best to not even start. I have deleted many post on here instead of deleting.

His conclusion about not coming to Envoy has only been true since Endeavor signed the new TA. I don't know why anyone would come here since there is a much better option. I get coming here if you live in Texas or Miami or ORD. Other than that there is no justification for coming to a sub par regional.

We all know there needs to be vast improvements at Envoy. I don't see this happening any time soon.

SilentLurker
01-06-2018, 02:02 AM
. 2 years ago, allegiant only hired rejects, convicts and dui cases, glad you got lucky tho...



False classification! Not a true characterization of Allegiant. I know a couple people from my previous outfit their now. Stellar pilots I flew with, good record, and history, college educated going to Allegiant. Not rejects, or tarnished convicts, dui cases like you say. Totally false. Allegiant has been selective of their pilots. Good pilots and the company got ahead of the pay shortage and offered pilots a good fair contract. One of the guys i kept in contact with was an ExpressJet FO who had been their 8/9yrs, good record, college degree, No calls from the majors (not a believer in job fairs, points, etc). He went to Allegiant 2 years ago, and each person I speak with talks highly of Allegiant. They enjoy their job, are HOME EVERY NIGHT, LIVING IN BASE, make good money to enjoy a very comfortable career. They are happy overall.

Don’t let the interweb boards fool you. Also the company did have some very public MX issues with the MD88 on property. That fleet has shrunk and retiring. Replaced by the A320, should be all Bus fleet soon. I have not checked the fleet plan in a while. They have taken deliveries of a ton of buses, and more in order.

Moral of the story, comment above is passing false rumor. Allegiant got ahead of the pilot shortage and improved its safety reputation. Lots of soft pay. Fair contract, happier pilot group.

Check out the W2 Thread section of the mainline forum. Good info. A lot has changed in the industry, not just regional pay, over the l
past 3 years. The worst place to be WHEN another down turn in the economy cycle arrives is the REGIONAL. Get OUT. Flow will not save you. 9 yr flow will turn into a 15yr flow again!

I’m comfortable right now & happy at Envoy btw, thanks only to relative seniority. I came onboard at a good time. My apps are going out now... Captain pay needs improvement here, $$$ not worth the forced captain upgrades coming & possible stagnation.

captjns
01-06-2018, 02:23 AM
In all fairness the chief pilot in NY did tell me not to call in sick because that was not going to look good if God forbid something happens and they have to look at my file.. he gave me a hard time when I mentioned my wife was due soon and I had to take time off.. I went in for basic indoc on my day off so I was wearing a regular coat, so he started mentioning not to wear any coats that are not part of the uniform, all the while his dirty Converse were peeking out from underneath his desk..:cool:

I will tell you one thing, line pilots do not like the guy.

Yeah... I remember the Fashion Nazis at carriers of yore... I wouldn’t trust this horse’s arse to fly a paper plane. But as Nando says, “Its better to look good than fly good.”:)

yeahbutstill
01-06-2018, 03:07 AM
We live in a day and age where information is readily available at our fingertips, yet we’re still able to recruit people to this company based on numerous falsehoods and sometimes even complete scams. I am writing this to try to paint a more accurate picture than our recruiters at Envoy seem to be giving our new hires.

After just under 2 years with Envoy, I have made the decision to retire from the Airline industry altogether after 5 abysmal years. My experience at three different regionals has proven that this sector of Aviation is not for me. People will continue to tell you that it gets better. Unfortunately, the grass is not always greener on the other side.

My Bachelor’s Degree is in Accounting. When I graduated, I had the option to continue with Accounting and work towards my CPA with one of the Big Four Accounting Firms. Not a day goes by that I do not regret my decision to leave that all behind and go the pilot route. If you’re thinking of making a career change, heed my advice: unless you have a deep and strong passion for aviation, stay away from the airline industry. Just remember that this passion won’t pay the bills.

To those of you that are thinking of joining the ranks of the “Elite” at Eagle, I strongly urge you to think again before selling your soul to the devil (read: Doug Parker).

Before I go to deep into this, I ask to those that respond to please refrain from emotions. My goal is one thing: Just the facts.

Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Come to Envoy:

1) Flow is Nonexistent. Metered. And Completely Unacceptable
It won’t take you long at this airline to discover that the “Just under 6 years to get to American” that the recruiters seem to be touting is a complete lie. The powers that be in management have violated our flow agreement before, and they continue to do so to this day. They are “metering” this number far below the projections from Recruitment.

If you don’t believe me, make a call to our ALPA MEC and ask to speak with someone in Contract Compliance. They will confirm that there is a grievance filed on the violation of our flow agreement. Don’t expect this grievance to be settled anytime soon, either (more on this later).

I cannot stress this enough: DO NOT COME TO ENVOY FOR THE FLOW.

2) You will commute to New York
This is mainly for those on the glorious 145.

Because New York has so many pilots transfer out, the company forces a decent group of its new hires to New York. The recruiters will tell you that you can transfer out in the next quarterly vacancy bid - but don’t think that you won’t be commuting there for at least six months.

Even if you’re lucky enough to avoid getting awarded NFE straight out of indoc, you will end up being sent there Involuntarily on TDY at least once throughout your career at Envoy.

If you’re going to be forced to New York, why not go to an airline that actually cares about its employees and compensates them adequately? *cough*Endeavor*cough*

2a) If you go to New York, You will be run by someone with little authority to be a Chief Pilot
The company has chosen the lowest bidder for the Job in NY, and that individual is our Chief Pilot, who just so happens to be a first officer on the CRJ (mind you, a plane that doesn’t even exist in New York).

Because he is the lowest bidder for the job, expect him to never be in the office when you need him. Also expect him to be completely unhelpful for anything you need.

I once asked for access to Res (for commuting purposes) and was told by this Chief Pilot that he does not have the proper permissions to give someone that access. Ask the CPO in ORD or DFW and you will most likely have access to Res within the next few hours.

3) Flight Benefits Are Worth Very Little
This mainly applies to all regionals, but I believe AAG to have flight benefits that are a steaming pile of *******.

So you want to go to San Diego for a weekend? Good luck getting on a plane to get out there. AAG sells Basic Economy Fares that are as low as $60 one way. Your plane is going to be FULL. There will be little to no room for Space Available travelers.

So you ended up in San Diego with your Registered Companion (or Spouse). You enjoy the weekend and are ready for your trip home. The flight home on Monday morning had 40 seats open when you checked JetNet on Sunday night. All of a sudden, you wake up and find that the flight has been oversold, probably due to Basic Economy Fares.

So you take the jumpsuit and your spouse isn’t getting home in time for their commitments. Now s/he is angry with you and refuses to non-rev with you anytime soon.

Let’s just fly on a Tuesday mid-day then! Nope. Still wrong. Unless it’s the first week of February, your travel guests are not going anywhere. The amount of people in front of your guests (which includes your Spouse and Dependent Children) far exceeds the amount of open seats. This is because everyone and their mother has these flight benefits. Even the good-for-nothing Analyst at PSA.

AAG has over 95,000 employees. Assume that every employee has only their spouse on their travel privileges. You do the math on your odds.

And if you’re commuting? Guess who’s getting that Jumpseat… the AA Pilot who listed as a Primary the night before. Expect to use the Commuting Clause once per year and to not get paid for a decent portion of a trip, even though you were available to work.

4) Pay (Especially our Absurd Bonus Structure)
We’ve all seen the compensation that some airlines have been advertising. Those that include Hotels and Per Diem in their “compensation” numbers are pulling wool over your eyes. It appears Envoy is doing this now as well.

Let’s forget about that for a moment. As of the end of 2017, Envoy paid a meager $37.90 per flight hour to a first year FO. You can reasonably expect a total earnings within your first year of about $37,900.

They try to offset this with the fact that you receive a New Hire-Bonus and that you are eligible for a Retention Bonus after the first year. These bonuses are $22,100 and $2500 a quarter respectively. After taxes, expect to receive about $17,000 on day 1, leading to your first year’s compensation at just around $60,000. Not bad right?

Well, the second year is where things get funky. Let say you started on January 22, 2017. Because you aren’t on property and active for at least 60 days of the quarter (Nov 1 - Jan 31) you won’t receive your first $2500 bonus payment until April 30, 2018 (Q1 close). Because of this, your second year earnings will be considerably less. At roughly $40 per flight hour, and bonus payouts totaling $7500 within the year*, you can expect your second year earnings to be $47,500, a sharp and dramatic increase from your earnings during the first year.

So, I’ll just upgrade to captain the second year! Well, sounds fine and dandy, but you then leave $20,000 on the table (2 years of retention payments). You’ll also be paid much less than your peers at Endeavor for the same responsibility. This may be offset by your upgrade bonus, but don’t expect that to help with much.

In order to attract qualified candidates, Envoy needs to implement a compensation structure that leads our industry. Especially give the fact that our once meaningful Flow-Through has been entirely crushed to nothing more than empty dreams and hopes (see #1 above).

*This number based on Bonus payouts on April 30, 2018; July 31, 2018; and October 31, 2018. The payout on January 31, 2019 happens on your third year with the company.

5) Expect To Be Underpaid
I kept track of myself, and five others’ Flight Schedules and determined that after a period of three months, in 14 out of 15 months, we were underpaid. One of these Pay Audits resulted in more than $1200 that was not paid to said pilot.

This isn’t a freak occurrence. Almost everyone at this airline has a story about how Pay Comp has stiffed them of their hard-earned money.

This happens all too often. And it must stop. Until then, I highly recommend you go elsewhere to a company that will pay you adequately for your flying.

6) Expect a Merger with Piedmont in the Near Future
Not much to say here other than that rumors on the street are that Piedmont and Envoy will merge by the end of 2018. Maybe it won’t happen that quickly, but think about this: After the last Dash leaves Piedmont, what reason can you think of for two separate airlines that operate the same airplane?

This one is strictly a rumor, but if you expect that Doug Parker is going to overlook this, then you are sadly mistaken.

If you need a reason for why this is bad for a pilot group, do a quick google search.

7) Constant Junior Manning
If you’re new to aviation, this is a basic rundown on what “Junior Manning” involves:

Originally intended to be a way for employers to extend pilots out of base due to weather or other unforeseen operational irregularities, “Junior Manning” essentially allows a company to extend a pilot past his original sign-out time, in exchange for compensation.

At Envoy, this means the greater of what was flown at 200%, or 4 hours at the pilot’s normal hourly rate.

Okay, so you have to fly a little extra. What’s the big deal? The big deal is that you will be extended into an additional overnight when you planned to be back home with your wife and kids. All in exchange for $151. That’s pretty awful.

This happened to me 10 times in 2017. This is not an anomaly throughout the system. This company is understaffed and you will become an indentured servant by signing with them.

8) The Company Will Violate the Contract
Management is so bad at this company that they have no regard for the labor contracts and the agreements they make with the union. Although related to number 1 (see above) this is a rampant problem throughout Envoy.

This will not get better over time. The corporate culture is in desperate need of a change. Envoy managers have a “fly it and grieve it” mentality, which always works to the company’s favor. The company knows they won’t be penalized for their wanton and willful violations of the contract. They would much rather take their chances with a System Board of Adjustment, mainly because it is much easier to screw over employees and pay off an Arbitrator than to upset a few customers.

Violations of the contract take no skin out of Envoy’s back because the grievance system is rigged in their favor. Envoy does not have to appear in a Court of Law for Breach of Contract. Pedro and Ric will always defer to “Fly It and Grieve It.” This type of abuse of process was never the intent Railway Labor Act.

9) Fatigue Calls Will Count Against You
Despite being told during training that you should call out fatigued if you are tired, the company has an approach to “Fatiguing Out” that is unparalleled within this industry. Call out tired and you will be disciplined for it.

Don’t take my word for it. Ask every single pilot at Envoy how this works. The families of Colgan Air 3407 would be appalled to hear how Envoy treats its pilots when they invoke FAR 117.

You WILL fly tired at Envoy.

10) Forced Upgrades
What you’ve heard around the industry is true. Envoy is using a little known clause within its labor contract to force pilots to upgrade, even if they don’t feel ready to do so.

And when you are forced to upgrade, guess where you're going: LGA.

Expect backlash if you come to Envoy with legal upgrade minimums and decline to do so due to personal reasons or safety.

If you’re wondering if you will be put in this position, I recommend that you review FAR 121.436.

11) Training Is Subpar at Best
The training at Envoy is among the worst in the industry. They are so backed-up that you can expect to be in the school house for 3-6 months. There are few instructors who are actually good at their jobs. Most of them are there to earn a paycheck and have done the bare minimum to become qualified on the fleet that they teach.

If you have a question, expect an instructor to respond that they don’t know. I have personally been told that an instructor will ask around and have an answer for me within the next day or so. I still don’t know the answer to that question.

Envoy is also hiring PSIs (Non-Line Qualified Simulator Instructors) that are some of the worst teachers in the industry. Some of them have never flown an EFIS aircraft. This leads to immense frustration on the student’s part.

As long as Allen Hill is the Director of Flight Training at Envoy, you can expect the training to be among the worst in the industry.

12) Deadhead Pay is 75%
For those of you new to the industry, deadheading will be a part of life. A deadhead happens when a flight crew member is repositioned as part of their trip sequence. E.g.: A pilot ends a flight in CMH and needs to be flow as a passenger to ORD to fly the rest of their trip.

Imagine that you are required to be at work, but you aren’t paid for being there. This is the life of an Envoy Pilot. You will be used inefficiently (see 15 below).

13) CRJ is Hell
If you have the misfortune of being assigned to the CRJ straight out of Indoc, you can expect your Quality of Life to be horrible for the foreseeable future.

This is a dying fleet. And because of that, pilots will sit reserve for 3-6 months. There are pilots at Envoy on the CRJ that have flown a little under 200 hours after 1 year with the company. These are pilots who want to fly. As long as this fleet continues to die, you can expect the reserve list to grow more and more, and you can expect to sit reserve in Chicago for many more months.

14) Fired for Being Sick
Call in sick during your probationary period and expect to be fired. Even if you have a Doctor’s Note. This is nothing new. Every year there is a purge of pilots for sick calls. The most notable of these terminations being a Union Representative named Neal.

“In what can only be described as a violation of privacy, the company hired a private investigator to follow and take photos of Neal outside of work, during a period he was ill and unable to perform his duties in accordance with common sense and FAA medical regulations for pilots.”

You can read more here: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/archive/index.php/t-98504.html

Expect this to continue for as long as Pedro and Ric are in charge.

15) Long Sits
Envoy is so inefficient that it schedules long sits - upwards of 3 hours - for its pilots when trip sequences are made. If there truly was a pilot shortage, they would not be scheduling pilots to sit at the airport to do nothing for hours on end.

This wouldn’t be that much of an issue if the company was willing to pay a minimum daily guarantee for pilots, but they refuse to do so.

Do you like making $80 for working a 6 hour day? Come to Envoy, where you’re bound to have this happen monthly!

16) AA gives the Table Scraps of Flying
The long sits that I mentioned above will continue because big brother AAG continues to give the table scraps of its regional flying to Envoy. The company cannot figure out how to patch these flights together to make a logical sequence, so you’re stuck with the long sits as mentioned above.

17) Benefits Cost More for Pilots than Any Other Workforce
Although it isn’t too much more of a difference, it just goes to show how valued you are as a pilot. Even the Rampers get their medical benefits at a cheaper price than us pilots do.

18) Midday Flying is Nonexistent
Because of these table scraps, you can expect to fly either early in the morning or late at night. Meanwhile your peers at Republic, Mesa, Skywest, etc. will have 0800 shows and will be done flying for the day at 1700 or 1800. If you like waking up before 0400, or staying awake past 0300 because you got extended, then Envoy is the airline for you!


Specifics To Reserve:
I can’t speak too deeply into this as I was on Reserve for a very minuscule part of my stint at Envoy. However, the general consensus of the Pilots at Envoy believe that the Reserve system is in a dire need of an overhaul. I will do my best to highlight specifics below.

19) Airport Standby (or Ready Reserve)
Envoy is one of the only airlines in the regional pool that uses the outdated Airport Standby system. At Envoy, these shifts are 8 hours long. This does not result in more compensation, other than the lousy $1.90/hour that you can expect to receive in per diem (which is taxed, btw). I don't know about you, but personally, I love sitting around for hours at the airport doing absolutely nothing.

20) No Long Call
Almost every airline in the industry uses a system of Long Call Reserve. Essentially, you will have a 12 - 24 hour call out prior to your show time for a flight. Don’t expect this at Envoy. Our pilots are extremely bitter about this and we don’t see it changing anytime soon.

21) Escalating RAP to Standby
What this means is that you can expect to be called in to sit Standby, even if you were on a RAP (2-hour call out). Other airlines have an escalation clause, which allows for more compensation when you were originally scheduled to work a 2-hour call out reserve assignment. This essentially forces the airline to pay for their poor reserve planning by adding more compensation to a pilot who experiences this phenomenon. Don’t expect Envoy to ever pay you for their poor planning. What you should expect is to sit standby for a decent amount of reserve shifts. Sounds fun, right?

Final Reserve Thoughts:
There’s much more than what I’ve shared here, but this is a decent introduction to the pain that you will experience on reserve if you join Envoy.

The Company and the Union recently got together to revamp these Reserve Rules. After months of negotiations, the company sent a lowball offer to the Union with many concessions for the pilot group. When this was overwhelmingly rejected by the pilots, the company retreated into its shell like a three-year old that didn’t get a cookie after dinner. As was described to me by a representative of the union: the company put the union on notice that they refuse to negotiate with the pilot group regarding reserve. The company thinks that their reserve system is entirely acceptable.

Rotorcraft Transition Pilots (RTP):
If you’re still reading this, you most likely have already made up your mind that Envoy is not for you. Let’s say that you still believe that Envoy’s RTP program is still a viable option. I strongly advise you to look elsewhere, as most regional airlines now have these programs.

The company that contracts with Envoy to do the flight training for this transition is about 12-18 months backed up at the moment. Expect to wait a very long time to enter the program. You will be at the bottom of the seniority list.

If you’re in the military, you’ve undoubtedly heard how awful and disorganized the training program is at this contractor.

If you’re looking at company to Envoy and joining the Rotorcraft Transition Program, please ask around within your unit and other units. The research may save you from making the jump into a miserable career with a dismal airline.

Cadet Instructors:
If you’re thinking about joining this program, then you should think again. It could take you a year or two to earn the hours needed to progress to a regional. This industry is very dynamic: what is great today, will not be great tomorrow.

With that being said, it is a decent perk to receive Flight and other benefits such as Medical, Dental, Vision and 401k. However, these come at an exorbitant cost. If you decide to leave Envoy when you have reached your ATP minimums, you will incur a $5000 penalty to “buy-out” your contract.

I highly recommend you do your due diligence before you sign a contract with this airline.


In closing, the trend that Envoy as an airline is experiencing is downward in nature. Due to the current corporate culture and management, you can expect tomorrow to be worse than today.

I welcome your response and input. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions on a personal level. I will be happy to answer them.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Best of luck to you Hansoolu

itsmytime
01-06-2018, 05:40 AM
Truthnator wins POTY.

Iflyyogirl is another account created by hanssolou.

ceelo
01-06-2018, 06:38 AM
Truthnator wins POTY.

Iflyyogirl is another account created by hanssolou.

I honestly don't get it. If these people (hanssolou, and the guy that works at Allegiant) actually didn't care about envoy and were happy to leave they wouldn't A. constantly hang out in the Envoy forums or B. create throwaway accounts to promote discussion of howwww much they hate envoy.

Like for real, just move on with your life! If that one guy really loves Allegiant then he shouldn't come back here lol. And to the OP if you're so glad to be an accountant, I'm sure there are some accountant forums somewhere.

itsmytime
01-06-2018, 08:18 AM
I honestly don't get it. If these people (hanssolou, and the guy that works at Allegiant) actually didn't care about envoy and were happy to leave they wouldn't A. constantly hang out in the Envoy forums or B. create throwaway accounts to promote discussion of howwww much they hate envoy.

Like for real, just move on with your life! If that one guy really loves Allegiant then he shouldn't come back here lol. And to the OP if you're so glad to be an accountant, I'm sure there are some accountant forums somewhere.

Agreed. Hanssolou is the classic example of the guy who isn't sure about or regrets his decision. So he tries to get as many people as possible to make the same decision, thereby in his mind validating his mistake.

Bad way to live.

ag386
01-06-2018, 08:57 AM
I was posting in this forum while still working at Envoy. As someone above mentioned, the cold hard facts at the time made me look beyond just applying at the legacies. I had 135 PIC time before arriving at Envoy but still wasn't extremely competitive at the time. Having the flow in my back pocket as some speak of here was OK but then I started to look deeply into the history of AMR/AAG/Envoy management in order to determine the real worth of that flow card.

What I came up with was that the flow as advertised wasn't going to happen. Due to the fact that Envoy had to operate their minimum schedule for AA coupled with the low number of new hires at the time, I was coming up with closer to 8 years at a time when 5 years was accepted as fact here. I believe that I have been proven correct in the time since late 2015 when I first began posting about this. Yes, Envoy is getting many more new hires now, however, management continues to add flying and airframes which just makes the hiring requirement go up.

Also, management has stated that 25 per month maximum throughout the PP group is all that is going to happen. In addition in 2017, there were 3 total months that zero Envoy flows were moved over to AA. This just extends the time that one here has to wait. Don't think that months with zero flows aside from December can't happen again. I think it's highly likely.

Let's look at some facts. Currently, flows are early 2006 hires. 12 year flow still intact. As of now, there are 100 pilots on the list total from 2006. 208 are on the list from 2007. If, IF, AAG/Envoy continue to flow 25 per month all year minus December, it will be this time next year before the last person hired in 2007 flows. You are essentially down to an 11 year flow at this point.

Considering outside attrition to legacies and other carriers that happens at Envoy in addition to the extra flying required by AAG, AND the new Endeavor/Republic contract rates, I feel like the perfect storm is brewing that will see not enough bodies to fly the schedule. Does anyone think Envoy or AAG for that matter will release people to flow when they cannot complete their flying schedule?

Aside from all of this, I determined at the time when I got called to work at Allegiant, even under their old contract, that my fortunes were better served by going there even if I had to fly the MD80. I live in South Florida so as you are aware, Envoy closed my MIA base and I was left to commute which degraded my QOL even further. Fortunately, I got the Airbus in my new hire class and was able to get based at home. I haven't done an overnight since arriving here 2 years ago. It's a true bonus that the new Allegiant contract was signed and I had a quick upgrade in my base. Had I stayed at Envoy, my pay rate as a 175 CA which I could hold now would be $75/hour vs. the $160/hour I'm getting now. Double the pay plus a little.

My decision was made due to the horrible treatment of the pilot group at the time and weighing out the options above. I understand that since QOL has gotten moderately better but still lacks in many areas. The original poster isn't 100% correct on every aspect but hits most of the points somewhat accurately.

I came back here to post in order to show that there are other options aside from waiting on a legacy with the flow in your back pocket. I have my apps in with the big 4 with no calls yet, but honestly if I don't get a call, a career at Allegiant isn't the worst thing in the world. I was berated on here and jumped on by a pack of recruiting hyenas who mocked my decision and derided me for being so stupid.

Looks like there are still a few of you recruiting and sales types about but not in the numbers of two years ago with all the cheerleading about Envoy's magical flow. I believe it's because most have figured out that the flow as originally advertised ain't happening.

itsmytime
01-06-2018, 09:53 AM
ag386:

Ok, so you made a good decision for yourself, and you are happy. Why do you feel the need to come on here and rip Envoy. Ok, so the flow is at 12 years, you left and did something different. That's your business.

Just like if someone wants to stay at Envoy for 12 years and wait, it's theirs. When you come on here constantly bashing Envoy talking about how smart you were for getting out, it makes you look childish, petty, and insecure. Not saying you are any of those things, as I don't know you, but you certainly come off that way.

The notion that you and the OP have that you have to save everyone from making the "critical mistake" of going to Envoy is ridiculous. You've made your decision, and say you are happy. That's great, but bashing a former employee constantly on their forum, certainly doesn't give that impression.

ag386
01-06-2018, 01:17 PM
ag386:

Ok, so you made a good decision for yourself, and you are happy. Why do you feel the need to come on here and rip Envoy. Ok, so the flow is at 12 years, you left and did something different. That's your business.

Just like if someone wants to stay at Envoy for 12 years and wait, it's theirs. When you come on here constantly bashing Envoy talking about how smart you were for getting out, it makes you look childish, petty, and insecure. Not saying you are any of those things, as I don't know you, but you certainly come off that way.

The notion that you and the OP have that you have to save everyone from making the "critical mistake" of going to Envoy is ridiculous. You've made your decision, and say you are happy. That's great, but bashing a former employee constantly on their forum, certainly doesn't give that impression.

I'm not intending to come across as ripping Envoy or promoting myself. I did however, work at Envoy for quite a while and have seen the other side in regards specifically to the LCC model.

If one desires to stay at Envoy and wait for the flow for whatever reason, that's his or her choice and I have no issue with it. Just like others here should have no issue with someone who might desire to move on to an LCC or other carrier. There is no reason to rip one who moves on from Envoy as stupid and tossing charges at them such as "Hope you enjoy your career at Allegiant, that's where you will retire from."

Like the OP, I drop in and see how things are progressing at Envoy and comment on things that are totally untrue at times. Such as, flow is 6 years. If one is unhappy with my posts, they are free to block me.

ORDinary
01-06-2018, 06:30 PM
1. Yes they are metering it, but people are flowing and it is expected to pickup in 2018.


It is definitely not expected to pickup in 2018.

bigtime209
01-06-2018, 07:06 PM
It is definitely not expected to pickup in 2018.

This^^^^^^

Unless you mean that it will pick up if AA has no more training snags in 2018. Then you are correct, we will send a whopping 12 more pilots in 2018 than in 2017. The rate of flow is most certainly not picking up in the slightest.

itsmytime
01-06-2018, 08:25 PM
I'm not intending to come across as ripping Envoy or promoting myself. I did however, work at Envoy for quite a while and have seen the other side in regards specifically to the LCC model.

If one desires to stay at Envoy and wait for the flow for whatever reason, that's his or her choice and I have no issue with it. Just like others here should have no issue with someone who might desire to move on to an LCC or other carrier. There is no reason to rip one who moves on from Envoy as stupid and tossing charges at them such as "Hope you enjoy your career at Allegiant, that's where you will retire from."

Like the OP, I drop in and see how things are progressing at Envoy and comment on things that are totally untrue at times. Such as, flow is 6 years. If one is unhappy with my posts, they are free to block me.

I'm not unhappy with your posts , in fact I find them quite entertaining. I was just trying to point out how you were coming across, which may have led to some of the snippy replies you were receiving.

citxls
01-07-2018, 03:02 AM
Everything the OP said is pretty much par for the course at Envoy. All other regionals are getting pay increases, and great QOL improvements.

What does envoy get? Nothing.

And to the guys who say “tough it out, or it’s not that bad” YOU are the problem.

Armybeatnavy
01-07-2018, 05:37 AM
Everything the OP said is pretty much par for the course at Envoy. All other regionals are getting pay increases, and great QOL improvements.

What does envoy get? Nothing.

And to the guys who say “tough it out, or it’s not that bad” YOU are the problem.


100 % .. I blame the union and people think "its just a regional"

AZPilotMike
01-07-2018, 06:23 AM
It is definitely not expected to pickup in 2018.

My apologies.

new guy
01-07-2018, 04:07 PM
.
I welcome your response and input. Feel free to send me a private message if you have questions on a personal level. I will be happy to answer them.
Fact of the matter is that ALL the information - good or bad - is readily available.
The unwashed masses did not need you to come in and set the record straight.
.
entitled snowflake fall hard.
https://media.giphy.com/media/BNXUmpunaU0ZW/giphy.gif

This thread is.....tough to label. I'll say this. It looks like the OP hit a button with many envoy "staffers/made men/lackeys" or whatever they are generally described as in this field.

I think many people interested in this field appreciate threads like this, especially since the OP said that experiences may vary, feel free to rebut with examples.

Reading through I had expected thoughtful responses, or at least discussion. Some back and forth. Instead what I got to read in replies was

OP you're
-stupid
-a virgin
-a virgin accountant
-a stupid virgin accountant

Or variations of that. I can't say if the arguments he made were true, but the time, effort, and opportunity he gave all parties to interact is appreciated.

If nothing else was learned here, it shows the character of some of the people you may have otherwise worked with at envoy. That in and of itself is worth it.

450knotOffice
01-07-2018, 06:01 PM
This thread is.....tough to label. I'll say this. It looks like the OP hit a button with many envoy "staffers/made men/lackeys" or whatever they are generally described as in this field.

I think many people interested in this field appreciate threads like this, especially since the OP said that experiences may vary, feel free to rebut with examples.

Reading through I had expected thoughtful responses, or at least discussion. Some back and forth. Instead what I got to read in replies was

OP you're
-stupid
-a virgin
-a virgin accountant
-a stupid virgin accountant

Or variations of that. I can't say if the arguments he made were true, but the time, effort, and opportunity he gave all parties to interact is appreciated.

If nothing else was learned here, it shows the character of some of the people you may have otherwise worked with at envoy. That in and of itself is worth it.

You must not have read through ALL the responses, because I spent half a night answering almost every one of the numerous points he made - bold type WITHIN his own long diatribe, and done on an iPhone, which was painful.

I have spoken with plenty of people who still fly for them. All agree that Envoy needs improvement. However, the ones I've spoken with also feel the place is not NEARLY as bad as some make it out to be. Point being, it's up to each individual to decide if he's reasonably happy there or not. Many of the issues that strongly bother him don't bother others much at all. It's all in each person's perspective.

ORDinary
01-07-2018, 07:53 PM
There are reasons to come here, and reasons not to. These are just my opinions:


Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Come to Envoy:

1) Flow is Nonexistent. Metered. And Completely Unacceptable

Truth: 2 out of 5. It exists, and is metered. Acceptability is subjective.
Importance: 5

2) You will commute to New York

Truth: 4
Importance: 2. You'll be able to bid out soon enough. Does anyone expect an airline career with zero commuting?

2a) If you go to New York, You will be run by someone with little authority to be a Chief Pilot

Truth: 5
Importance: 2

3) Flight Benefits Are Worth Very Little

Truth: 1
Importance: doesn't matter if it is not true.

4) Pay (Especially our Absurd Bonus Structure)

Truth: 3. This would be lower but for Endeavor.
Importance: 5

5) Expect To Be Underpaid

Truth: 5. The company should be embarrassed. Pay Comp is either woefully understaffed or woefully undertrained, probably both, and has been for years. I've been underpaid many times.
Importance: 5


6) Expect a Merger with Piedmont in the Near Future

Truth: ???
Importance: ???

7) Constant Junior Manning

Truth: 2.5. Constant isn't true...
Importance: 5 ...but when it happens to you it sucks.

8) The Company Will Violate the Contract

Truth: 5.
Importance: 5.

9) Fatigue Calls Will Count Against You

Truth: 4. This happens occasionally, and is BS.
Importance: 3. Because every airline seems kind of slimy about this.

10) Forced Upgrades

Truth: 5
Importance: 3 or 4. Everyone should know about this by now. Upgrading can also be good.

11) Training Is Subpar at Best

Truth: 3 or 4, I think. Our training was always fantastic. The huge turnover in the training department seems to have had an effect.

12) Deadhead Pay is 75%

Truth: 5
Importance: 1

13) CRJ is Hell

Truth: 5
Importance: varies

14) Fired for Being Sick

Truth: Hard to say. Was he fired for being a vocal union rep? Possibly.
Importance: 5

15) Long Sits

Truth: 5
Importance: 1

16) AA gives the Table Scraps of Flying

Truth: 5
Importance: 1

17) Benefits Cost More for Pilots than Any Other Workforce

Truth: I have no idea.
Importance: 4

18) Midday Flying is Nonexistent

Truth: 3. Hyperbole.
Importance: 1

Specifics To Reserve:
19) Airport Standby (or Ready Reserve)

Truth: 5
Importance: 4

20) No Long Call

Truth: 3. Technically if you don't receive or confirm a reserve assignment, you are long call. Doesn't happen often, but happens.
Importance: 4

21) Escalating RAP to Standby

Truth: 5
Importance: 4

AZPilotMike
01-08-2018, 06:32 AM
This thread is.....tough to label. I'll say this. It looks like the OP hit a button with many envoy "staffers/made men/lackeys" or whatever they are generally described as in this field.

I think many people interested in this field appreciate threads like this, especially since the OP said that experiences may vary, feel free to rebut with examples.

Reading through I had expected thoughtful responses, or at least discussion. Some back and forth. Instead what I got to read in replies was

OP you're
-stupid
-a virgin
-a virgin accountant
-a stupid virgin accountant

Or variations of that. I can't say if the arguments he made were true, but the time, effort, and opportunity he gave all parties to interact is appreciated.

If nothing else was learned here, it shows the character of some of the people you may have otherwise worked with at envoy. That in and of itself is worth it.

You clearly didn’t read the responses I gave. I felt I dealt with most of his topics. In addition I did find others were generally participating productively. While there was some of what you mentioned, one must remember this is an Internet forum and crap like that exists on every single one of them.

prfly
01-10-2018, 09:18 AM
Thank you for taking the time out to type all that. I am certain it took a lot of your time.
Those defending are probably recruiters or Envoy milkmaids and juicers.
This is excellent information for those of us seeking which direction to go and man...you helped me and I am sure several others.
Its too bad that they mistreat their pilots like that... after all, there IS a reason bonuses are offered.
Its super simple...keep your pilot group happy = keep your pilots
Why they don't get it, who knows????
Don't give up...you just got unlucky with where you went. There are some great airlines out there that have a good QOL and treat their employees well.
Good Luck !!!

BigZ
01-10-2018, 09:54 AM
Thank you for taking the time out to type all that. I am certain it took a lot of your time.
Those defending are probably recruiters or Envoy milkmaids and juicers.
This is excellent information for those of us seeking which direction to go and man...you helped me and I am sure several others.
Its too bad that they mistreat their pilots like that... after all, there IS a reason bonuses are offered.
Its super simple...keep your pilot group happy = keep your pilots
Why they don't get it, who knows????
Don't give up...you just got unlucky with where you went. There are some great airlines out there that have a good QOL and treat their employees well.
Good Luck !!!

So you aren't a part of the employee group, but already have an opinion as for which info shared on a forum is solid and which is bs?

Cool.

ag386
01-10-2018, 10:08 AM
So you aren't a part of the employee group, but already have an opinion as for which info shared on a forum is solid and which is bs?

Cool.

He's right. This board is a hotbed for Envoy recruiters and slimy salesmen that come on here and put the hard sell on unsuspecting saps such as yourself.

They'll sell you BS by the truckload here on just how lightning fast you'll be at AA.

What do you think about that? Cool huh.

moon
01-10-2018, 10:12 AM
He's right. This board is a hotbed for Envoy recruiters and slimy salesmen that come on here and put the hard sell on unsuspecting saps such as yourself.

They'll sell you BS by the truckload here on just how lightning fast you'll be at AA.

What do you think about that? Cool huh.

I think the days of the heavy heavy recruiters on here are gone, at least for now. I haven't seen the hard sell in a while. However doesn't mean all the info is factual, especially coming from people who aren't at even at Envoy, good or bad.

BigZ
01-10-2018, 12:23 PM
He's right. This board is a hotbed for Envoy recruiters and slimy salesmen that come on here and put the hard sell on unsuspecting saps such as yourself.

They'll sell you BS by the truckload here on just how lightning fast you'll be at AA.

What do you think about that? Cool huh.
See, after I interviewed with Envoy I made a point to go back and read the forum posts for the entirety of 2017 to get a general feel for trends over that past year. I've been poking around for longer than that, naturally. Envoy isn't the only airline that I interviewed at, neither did the recruiters give me bs at the interview. During the presentation both the company and the union number of years were given with no preference to either. We asked questions and were given answers. Nothing I can think of was bs or koolaid. Do I think that the flow is a sure thing and I'll be in AA in six years? Not given the current circumstance. Do I think your gig sucks because it's not a legacy? Nope. For some dudes lack of exotic overnights is taking away from the job, to me that's golden.
Back to Envoy though - it's a regional. I'm picking a regional where I have a high chance of driving to work and if need be bidding another base that works for me and where I can drive to work too. I tend to like the current uniform. I'd prefer something with a VNAV, but will settle for the 145. Reserve rules suck, but I hope it'll get better eventually. Same goes for pay - given the opportunity I'd trade the sign on bonus for higher rates. But at the end of the day, it is what it is at this point in time. Would i love to have Air Whiskey health insurance and trip/duty rigs with Endeavor rates and Envoy bases that work for me and guaranteed flow in 5 years? Yes. Is it possible? No. Well then, working with what's possible then.

Message I quoted originally was eye-roll-worthy, that's all, nothing else to see here.

TheWeatherman
01-10-2018, 12:40 PM
So you aren't a part of the employee group, but already have an opinion as for which info shared on a forum is solid and which is bs?

Cool.
There is literally no place else on the internet that you can get as much information on a Regional then this site and its forums. It's up to each user to filter out the bull****. It's threads like this, not being a part of the employee group, that helped me choose a Regional. So I am not sure why his comment was so surprising to you.

BigZ
01-10-2018, 12:59 PM
There is literally no place else on the internet that you can get as much information on a Regional then this site and its forums. It's up to each user to filter out the bull****. It's threads like this, not being a part of the employee group, that helped me choose a Regional. So I am not sure why his comment was so surprising to you.

It came across as an overly simplistic approach to picking a company to which to hitch your wagon for the next number of years, there's a blanket branding statement in there.. I dunno, is that enough or should there be more reasons?
I mean, great first post and all, but still

TheWeatherman
01-10-2018, 01:06 PM
It came across as an overly simplistic approach to picking a company to which to hitch your wagon for the next number of years, there's a blanket branding statement in there.. I dunno, is that enough or should there be more reasons?

Simplistic? The guy gave a 21 point dissertation on why not to come to Envoy, then we have had a 12 page discussion with both pros and cons, some in a agreement, some in disagreement. If that is a simplistic approach, please link to somewhere else on the internet that gives that kind of intimate detail on the inner workings of Envoy. The company page? lmao, come on man

BigZ
01-10-2018, 01:23 PM
Simplistic? The guy gave a 21 point dissertation on why not to come to Envoy, then we have had a 12 page discussion with both pros and cons, some in a agreement, some in disagreement. If that is a simplistic approach, please link to somewhere else on the internet that gives that kind of intimate detail on the inner workings of Envoy. The company page? lmao, come on man

I wasn't talking about the OP. Right or wrong, subjective or not, he put an effort into this thing, as did the people supporting and opposing his points over all those pages.
My comments were about this dude
I'm going to dissect in bold
Thank you for taking the time out to type all that. I am certain it took a lot of your time.
Agree
Those defending are probably recruiters or Envoy milkmaids and juicers.
Bold unfounded statement.
This is excellent information for those of us seeking which direction to go and man...you helped me and I am sure several others.
Perhaps. I didn't see anything that I didn't see before in the general thread in there though
Its too bad that they mistreat their pilots like that... after all, there IS a reason bonuses are offered.
Its super simple...keep your pilot group happy = keep your pilots
Agree
Why they don't get it, who knows????
Right????
Don't give up...you just got unlucky with where you went. There are some great airlines out there that have a good QOL and treat their employees well.
How tf would he know if he's still looking for that first airline? Based on his great experiences on the forums?
Good Luck !!!

3EngineTaxi
01-10-2018, 02:39 PM
For some dudes lack of exotic overnights is taking away from the job, to me that's golden.............
I tend to like the current uniform. I'd prefer something with a VNAV, but will settle for the 145. Reserve rules suck, but I hope it'll get better eventually. Same goes for pay - given the opportunity I'd trade the sign on bonus for higher rates. But at the end of the day, it is what it is at this point in time..............
Message I quoted originally was eye-roll-worthy, that's all, nothing else to see here.
Wow. Are you actually for real?
-No one cares about "exotic overnights." Getting a seniority number at a career airline is what matters.
-Are you truly suggesting the UNIFORM should be a factor in choosing airline employment? If so, your post is "eye-roll-worthy."
-Keep hoping for pay raises and improved reserve. In my opinion, I do not think these are likely.
-VNAV is nice, but not important. Getting paid better, restored vacation accrual, and getting treated better are much more important.

Best of luck to you in your career. I hope things go well for you.

These are my personal opinions and not the opinions of any entity or employer.

BigZ
01-10-2018, 03:10 PM
Wow. Are you actually for real?
-No one cares about "exotic overnights." Getting a seniority number at a career airline is what matters.
I know guys who enjoy spending nights at nice places vs Detroit. Being home every night sounds great to me, not so great for other guys I know. I personally do consider some of the LCC carriers to be career airlines. YMMV, but a good friend flew for Braniff, Midway, Piedmont, US Air and AA in that particular order, which one of them could have been considered career airline? He spent a couple of years at AA before retiring
-Are you truly suggesting the UNIFORM should be a factor in choosing airline employment? If so, your post is "eye-roll-worthy."
You're reading too much into it. That was a homage to some of these posts with people complaining about the brand of tablet issued for EFB.
-Keep hoping for pay raises and improved reserve. In my opinion, I do not think these are likely.
It will get better, unless the economy tanks next couple of years. I bet $5 on new rates at Envoy by September
-VNAV is nice, but not important. Getting paid better, restored vacation accrual, and getting treated better are much more important.
True to an extend, especially the last part. However, I also happen to enjoy flying complex pieces of machinery. You gotta get excited about the day to day stuff - chemtrails at sunset, pressing the right buttons for the damn thing to fly vnav in climbs and level off for crossing restrictions and such. Job satisfaction can't be just about the money.

Best of luck to you in your career. I hope things go well for you.
Thank you. I'm sure they will one way or the other. Hope for the same for you.

These are my personal opinions and not the opinions of any entity or employer.

Please see above in bold

LowValueAviator
01-10-2018, 05:55 PM
Word is that 6 people walked in to the DFW cp's office and quit today do to the latest displacements.

E175 Driver
01-10-2018, 06:06 PM
So let me understand this, you get forced to upgrade and ***** about it?

Cpt Rex Kramer
01-10-2018, 06:11 PM
Aren't you changing your name to E145 Driver?

Jersdawg
01-10-2018, 06:37 PM
Aren't you changing your name to E145 Driver?

Heh

/filler

Virga show
01-11-2018, 06:46 AM
Aren't you changing your name to E145 Driver?

If not on this displacement he will be making the change on the next one cause his ass is going on the 145 LGA

itsmytime
01-11-2018, 12:30 PM
Word is that 6 people walked in to the DFW cp's office and quit today do to the latest displacements.

Unless they had class dates at Major's, I doubt that.

Jersdawg
01-11-2018, 03:49 PM
Unless they had class dates at Major's, I doubt that.

Yeah. That's a lot of bonus money to pay back if any of it was spent.

BRubble
01-31-2018, 07:38 PM
Not sure how much of this to believe, but thanks for taking the time to write it for those of us still looking around.

citxls
02-03-2018, 10:20 PM
Unless they had class dates at Major's, I doubt that.

When MIA/NY closed and they transferred all of us involuntarily to ORD, I called the CP office that day, quit and Fedex’d my manuals out. Didn’t have a job lined up, picked up contract work collected myself from all the frustration and BS eagle subjected me to and turns out had a great time taking a break.

I hope guys walked in and quit.

AZPilotMike
02-04-2018, 05:19 AM
Not sure how much of this to believe, but thanks for taking the time to write it for those of us still looking around.
Most of what you read is accurate although that doesn’t make it a horrible place to work by any means. I’ve dug ditches before and believe me this is better than that, lol.

What needs to happen to erase all of this negativity and poor moral is rather straight forward if the company would just decide to do it.

1. Get our pay back up to or close to industry high. I.E Endevor. It’s depressing knowing our captains make 20+$ less than people doing the same thing, which equates to $20,000+ more a year for them.

2. Fix reserve system so that people will actually want to upgrade and not have to resort to forced displacements that do nothing but **** pilots off and decrease our already limited time with our families and friends.

3. Flow flow flow. Enough said. We need to trust that the company will not violate like it did after this summer. We need an end date, even if it is years out, to stay fairly reliable so we can accurately plan for our future. This is a big deal for people.

If those three things happened we would once again be the top place to come. Right now the recruiting numbers look good because of the HVA and RTP programs so who knows if any of this will change.

Other than that, like I said a few weeks back, the company has treated me well and with respect, even through some sick calls. The CPO is management but that is the same everywhere, although again they have been nothing but respectful. I will say that I have had no issues, violations or bad reports from captains so that could change for someone that is performing badly.

TheWeatherman
02-04-2018, 07:26 AM
Envoy treats Flow as a huge part of their compensation and retention package. Why would they ever raise rates to Endever or anything close to industry high? They don't need to. They get plenty of recruits with the bonus and they have no problems with retaining Captains with the flow.

AZPilotMike
02-04-2018, 09:21 AM
Envoy treats Flow as a huge part of their compensation and retention package. Why would they ever raise rates to Endever or anything close to industry high? They don't need to. They get plenty of recruits with the bonus and they have no problems with retaining Captains with the flow.
You “may” be correct hence the last paragraph of my post. However everything you mention is past tense and time will tell of people react or not.

Skyguy85
07-16-2018, 06:45 PM
I agree with HanSoolu. I left envoy for Allegiant 2 years ago and was told what an idiot I was for "walking away from the flow." Looks like I was correct. The flow is bogus and will never work as the envoy recruiters and salesmen claimed it would. I'm in the left seat of the Bus now. Worlds better than anything envoy has to offer.

What was your time line

ytumama
07-16-2018, 07:18 PM
Seriously?

No not seriously. The guy he cites as an example was a scammer that made a big show of it. I’ve heard everything from they fired him for having a cold to him taking FMLA for a kid he didn’t have. You don’t have the full story, but it’s never that simple. If you get fired for calling in sick once call the FAA and your congressman.

As for the rest of the whinging, it’s not like all of this wasn’t public information. You know the pay scales either you can make it on the pay or you can’t.

Commuting to LGA/JFK? Amazing that you’d end up being based at one of the airline’s bases, what are the odds?

Enjoy siting in a cubical worshiping the flashing rectangle for the rest of your life. That life is miserable, this is the easiest job I’ve ever had despite some of the ****ery.

dbdevkc
08-17-2018, 03:54 PM
I am coming into this conversation late, but man, it sounds like a ******* show. I only came on to this board to research and help my daughter make a career decision. She has an undergrad and master's in music, but aviation is a passion, has been for a long time and for some unknown reason seems to want to fly 121. On one side I feel bad for her, as it sounds like a mess getting to a good spot in a career. On the other hand, music is a freaking mess also and the compensation is a joke in comparison to what 121 is getting. And I know she would just be depressingly miserable in a corporate job. Right now her "office" is an L-19 Bird Dog, with almost no compensation. But I am not sure it gets much better than that. These might indeed be "the good old days".

Was looking at Envoy with her, but I just don't know...

NoValueAviator
08-17-2018, 03:58 PM
Has she applied to the majors already (particularly Delta)? Female aviatiors are considered diverse and are regarded as extremely desirable candidates for the best positions in this career.

Regardless, if going to a regional to improve the resume for a street hire at any major, I wouldn't worry about Envoy. The main gimmick Envoy has is the flow. If you are assured of a call from a major in fairly short order, there are better places to be.

highfarfast
08-17-2018, 08:18 PM
I am coming into this conversation late, but man, it sounds like a ******* show. I only came on to this board to research and help my daughter make a career decision. She has an undergrad and master's in music, but aviation is a passion, has been for a long time and for some unknown reason seems to want to fly 121. On one side I feel bad for her, as it sounds like a mess getting to a good spot in a career. On the other hand, music is a freaking mess also and the compensation is a joke in comparison to what 121 is getting. And I know she would just be depressingly miserable in a corporate job. Right now her "office" is an L-19 Bird Dog, with almost no compensation. But I am not sure it gets much better than that. These might indeed be "the good old days".

Was looking at Envoy with her, but I just don't know...

I'm in my 40s and am envious of the kids coming into the industry today. Young people just starting will have a very different experience than a lot of us have had. She should have a great career in aviation and yes she should be pursuing 121. All regionals have their issues... they are a starting point, not the finish line. But almost all are better than they used to be, Envoy included. If she has a passion for flying, it's what she should be doing. Envoy may or may not be the right place for her but don't steer her away from flying if it's her passion as you say.

Also should add, despite what else is said, female or not, she will not get Delta right out of college. Ignore that other post.

OneAAPilot
07-12-2019, 03:32 PM
It’s amazing to me the number of over-privaledged, under-experienced men and women who think because they have a piece of paper they are entitled to instant success. Hard work is exactly that, hard work, and arriving at the regionals is hardly the end of it. For those who have the character and fortitude to persevere through the hard beginning years of airline experience, a rewarding and lucrative future is theirs. For those with unrealistic expectations, as is the case with this impatient pilot, discouragement and disgruntlement usually follow when those inflated expectations pop. The rest of us are rewarded with a seniority boost.

highfarfast
07-12-2019, 04:09 PM
Wow! This is a strange thread to dredge up and get on a soapbox about given the last post was nearly a year ago and the original post you're referencing is over a year and a half ago.

pitchattitude
07-12-2019, 04:17 PM
Wow! This is a strange thread to dredge up and get on a soapbox about given the last post was nearly a year ago and the original post you're referencing is over a year and a half ago.

And from a one post wonder, no less.

highfarfast
07-12-2019, 04:32 PM
And from a one post wonder, no less.

Yeah, I noticed that too. I'm just not interested enough to go back and read this old thread to try to figure out what his agenda might be.

OneAAPilot
07-12-2019, 04:36 PM
And from a one post wonder, no less.

I’m sorry guys I guess I’m a little confused, I thought this was a forum. I just recently joined and, despite this being over a year old, comments were still being made and I thought I was welcome to state mine. Maybe if I had more than one post, my opinions would have more validity and possibly not trolled to such a level. Please forgive me if I’ve violated any of your safe places.

pitchattitude
07-12-2019, 05:17 PM
I’m sorry guys I guess I’m a little confused, I thought this was a forum. I just recently joined and, despite this being over a year old, comments were still being made and I thought I was welcome to state mine. Maybe if I had more than one post, my opinions would have more validity and possibly not trolled to such a level. Please forgive me if I’ve violated any of your safe places.

Sure, anyone can post anything they want to. But when you see someone who has a comment that seems to be drudging something up or taking a decidedly slanted position or otherwise have an agenda and it is their first post, it raises questions.

SilentLurker
07-12-2019, 06:06 PM
It’s amazing to me the number of over-privaledged, under-experienced men and women who think because they have a piece of paper they are entitled to instant success. Hard work is exactly that, hard work, and arriving at the regionals is hardly the end of it. For those who have the character and fortitude to persevere through the hard beginning years of airline experience, a rewarding and lucrative future is theirs. For those with unrealistic expectations, as is the case with this impatient pilot, discouragement and disgruntlement usually follow when those inflated expectations pop. The rest of us are rewarded with a seniority boost.


Valid point of view in my book. That is how the wheels turn in this industry. No harm in your statement.

People are jittery here at Envoy. Jaded way too many times. AIP debacle for example has caused PTSD and trauma (so much drama in this pilot group).

highfarfast
07-12-2019, 06:11 PM
"violated any of your safe places" ??? LOL

Perhaps you should re-read your post and our replies.

I think you're right that some of the points the OP brings up are a bit whiny/entitled. However, several of his points are straight up valid points for being disgruntled. And once you're disgruntled, all the other little things pile on.

And what is your definition of 'comments still being made'? Because the thread hadn't been officially closed? Ok, that's fine. It's just odd. Particularly with the one sided slant.

ICUROOK
07-13-2019, 06:24 AM
I’m sorry guys I guess I’m a little confused, I thought this was a forum. I just recently joined and, despite this being over a year old, comments were still being made and I thought I was welcome to state mine. Maybe if I had more than one post, my opinions would have more validity and possibly not trolled to such a level. Please forgive me if I’ve violated any of your safe places.

Cool story bro

Cyio
07-13-2019, 06:39 AM
It’s amazing to me the number of over-privaledged, under-experienced men and women who think because they have a piece of paper they are entitled to instant success. Hard work is exactly that, hard work, and arriving at the regionals is hardly the end of it. For those who have the character and fortitude to persevere through the hard beginning years of airline experience, a rewarding and lucrative future is theirs. For those with unrealistic expectations, as is the case with this impatient pilot, discouragement and disgruntlement usually follow when those inflated expectations pop. The rest of us are rewarded with a seniority boost.
Good lord. We are completing the mission and getting the job done, with no work actions, something our main line brothers and sisters can’t always say. We are honoring the contract and doing our best to perform safely.

With that said, we are allowed to voice our opinions. The professionalisms you preach and fortitude you claim we need has proven itself out. We get the job done and we still do it better than most, despite our current predicament . Kudos on an super old thread.

TeeRainPULup
07-13-2019, 11:11 AM
I guess that why Mainline AA SAYS IT’s TIME!



For my third home.

NoValueAviator
07-15-2019, 01:52 AM
Surprised anyone at mainline is against us making the same as PSA. I realize it feels good to talk down to people making 1/10th of what you do, and teach them hard lessons about life etc, but honestly the less of a discount AA gets us at, the more flying/hiring is going to be at mainline as a proportion of the whole. That’s good for everyone, except those who otherwise wouldn’t be airline pilots if not for the lower hiring standards of the regionals.

Cyio
07-15-2019, 02:24 AM
Surprised anyone at mainline is against us making the same as PSA. I realize it feels good to talk down to people making 1/10th of what you do, and teach them hard lessons about life etc, but honestly the less of a discount AA gets us at, the more flying/hiring is going to be at mainline as a proportion of the whole. That’s good for everyone, except those who otherwise wouldn’t be airline pilots if not for the lower hiring standards of the regionals.
I can almost guarantee that guy telling us we are spoiled brats never did a day in their life at the regional level.

pitchattitude
07-15-2019, 02:46 AM
I can almost guarantee that guy telling us we are spoiled brats never did a day in their life at the regional level.
Read my first response to “AA’s” posting. Pretty sure this is a troll post, maybe even Mgt. “New” to the forum and chose to post on this first? This person still only has two posts to their name, the original and “why can’t I have an opinion?” response to me questioning their agenda.

Varsity
07-15-2019, 08:48 AM
Read my first response to “AA’s” posting. Pretty sure this is a troll post, maybe even Mgt. “New” to the forum and chose to post on this first? This person still only has two posts to their name, the original and “why can’t I have an opinion?” response to me questioning their agenda.

Maybe not. We have former military mainline pilots on the AA forum complaining about eagle pilots D2’ing on mainline flights.

pitchattitude
07-15-2019, 09:06 AM
Maybe not. We have former military mainline pilots on the AA forum complaining about eagle pilots D2’ing on mainline flights.
That’s funny. Because pilots are a very small portion of the total number of D2s.

highfarfast
07-15-2019, 09:26 AM
Maybe not. We have former military mainline pilots on the AA forum complaining about eagle pilots D2’ing on mainline flights.

I bet those same guys don’t have a problem D2’ing on the regional partners though.

Speaking of, there is this one AA guy that commutes from the same town I do, former military too. Every time one of us Envoy guys gets the jumpseat over him because its our equipment, he goes into a loud rant that all can hear about flying ‘these people’ all over the world and he can’t even get on a flight home because of all of us other non-revs take up all the seats. Non-revs hear him, revenue passengers hear him, gate agents hear him. He’s probably one of the guys posting over there complaining.

That’s not to poke at all AA former military guys. We have others that commute too and they’re nice and respectful but your post was so close to on point for him I couldn’t help but laugh.

Cyio
07-15-2019, 10:16 AM
I bet those same guys don’t have a problem D2’ing on the regional partners though.

Speaking of, there is this one AA guy that commutes from the same town I do, former military too. Every time one of us Envoy guys gets the jumpseat over him because its our equipment, he goes into a loud rant that all can hear about flying ‘these people’ all over the world and he can’t even get on a flight home because of all of us other non-revs take up all the seats. Non-revs hear him, revenue passengers hear him, gate agents hear him. He’s probably one of the guys posting over there complaining.

That’s not to poke at all AA former military guys. We have others that commute too and they’re nice and respectful but your post was so close to on point for him I couldn’t help but laugh.

That’s pretty pathetic.

highfarfast
07-15-2019, 12:10 PM
That’s pretty pathetic.

Yep.

/filler/

MEGAFUPM
07-15-2019, 01:11 PM
I bet those same guys don’t have a problem D2’ing on the regional partners though.

Speaking of, there is this one AA guy that commutes from the same town I do, former military too. Every time one of us Envoy guys gets the jumpseat over him because its our equipment, he goes into a loud rant that all can hear about flying ‘these people’ all over the world and he can’t even get on a flight home because of all of us other non-revs take up all the seats. Non-revs hear him, revenue passengers hear him, gate agents hear him. He’s probably one of the guys posting over there complaining.

That’s not to poke at all AA former military guys. We have others that commute too and they’re nice and respectful but your post was so close to on point for him I couldn’t help but laugh.

Email the jumpseat committee with his info.

Houpilot2001
07-15-2019, 01:50 PM
Email the jumpseat committee with his info.

This, AFTER you talk to him face to face about it and he continues to act like a child.