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View Full Version : Honest question: why no union?


fenix1
01-03-2018, 04:21 PM
I understand that this question is inherently political, but my intent is to ask it as objectively (ie, apolitically) as possible as I have no Part 121 flying experience yet.

SkyWest is the only airline (regional or legacy/major) without a union. What unique factors or circumstances of any kind have created a situation where OO pilots benefit from not having representation, while other airlinesí pilots benefit from having representation?


rickair7777
01-03-2018, 04:39 PM
They started out (like all carriers) without a union. Back in the day they were a very good place to work, you wouldn't make millions, but could live in base in low-cost and/or high QOL locals, and have plenty of time off. The founders did in fact care about peoples families.

Things have been on a downward slope since 2000-ish. But the SKW demographic includes a LOT of old-skool conservatives who want nothing to do with a union. The really senior inter-mountain west folks are mostly still taken care of, which helps. Also the west coast lifestyle crowd tends to not to want to think about airlines on their days off. Unions in general are more of an eastern/midwest thing in general, if you grew up in the east, everybody's dad was in the union, the mob, or both.

OO would probably benefit from it today, but there's a lot of momentum to overcome. The time to vote in alpa was ten years ago, the barn door is starting to swing in the breeze now. Also the large up-wardly mobile mid-seniority demographic doesn't want to to rock the boat before they get their PIC and get out.

DL31082
01-03-2018, 04:40 PM
SkyWest benefits from everything unions do without paying 1.9%. With that being the case why unionize. ALPA worked out KCM with the Feds, but SkyWest benefits. Had they been excluded they might unionize. Skywest management gives them all of the flying with decent pay rates and ok work rules. Why pay a union when your getting it without the dues?


Cefiro
01-03-2018, 04:45 PM
This thread will go down hill fast once all the pro union/anti union people come in.

Mercyful Fate
01-03-2018, 05:14 PM
I understand that this question is inherently political, but my intent is to ask it as objectively (ie, apolitically) as possible as I have no Part 121 flying experience yet.

SkyWest is the only airline (regional or legacy/major) without a union. What unique factors or circumstances of any kind have created a situation where OO pilots benefit from not having representation, while other airlinesí pilots benefit from having representation?

https://i.imgur.com/kyizNoo.gif

93Sierra
01-03-2018, 06:38 PM
Koolaid that's why. I hope that we gather steam and get a union on property.

dupe
01-03-2018, 08:25 PM
Outsider here: I think SkyWest seems to have a pretty good set of benefits/work-rules without a union.

In todayís rapidly-changing environment, not having a union may actually be beneficial as the company can rapidly increase compensation as needed.

Check Complete
01-03-2018, 08:41 PM
Outsider here: I think SkyWest seems to have a pretty good set of benefits/work-rules without a union.

In todayís rapidly-changing environment, not having a union may actually be beneficial as the company can rapidly increase compensation as needed.

Outsider here: ie. Harrison and Ford. I think SkyWest seems to have a pretty good set of benefits/work-rules without a union.


Re worded:In todayís rapidly-changing environment, not having a union may actually be beneficial, to the company, as the company can rapidly increase compensation as needed and not have to deal to the rest of the pilot group.

There's a reason the company has a huge header about unions and how associating with them is basically getting in bed with the devil and hitler.

Thank you Harrison and Ford, for your kindly reminder!

DirkDiggler
01-03-2018, 08:45 PM
So, in other words... the company can raise first year pay to $100k if it wants to and not do anything for the rest of the pilots. And there's nothing the pilots can do collectively because they don't have a legally enforceable contract.

Check Complete
01-03-2018, 08:48 PM
So, in other words... the company can raise first year pay to $100k if it wants to and not do anything for the rest of the pilots. And there's nothing the pilots can do collectively because they don't have a legally enforceable contract.

Yep. No contract, no rules.

fenix1
01-03-2018, 09:45 PM
This thread will go down hill fast once all the pro union/anti union people come in.

I understand there's plenty of passion behind both sides, but I'm trying to focus on what differentiates OO from other airlines (i.e., why is OO the only non-union airline?) rather than spurring discussion over whether OO should or shouldn't unionize. To that end, it seems several themes emerged from responses thus far:
1). People used to be more highly regarded at OO, but the airline has become more corporate. (My question: Given the changes that have already happened at OO, what has kept unionization from occurring already after the airline changed? Also, has the future likelihood of unionization at OO increased?)
2). Senior members of the pilot group perceive themselves to be benefiting from the absence of a union and many of the mid/junior pilots don't see it worth rocking the boat to push for a union given all the movement currently present in the industry. (My question: Why/how is OO's situation any different than every other airline in this regard??)
3). The OO pilot group benefits from the rest of the industry being unionized without having to pay. (My question: If this is the case, what has kept other airlines' pilot groups from seeking to disband their respective unions to achieve this same effect?)
4). OO management influence against unionization. (My question: Why/how has OO management been more successful at preventing unionization that other airlines' management?)
5). The OO pilot group sees values in giving management flexibility/agility, particularly with respect to compensation. (My question: Why don't other airlines' pilot groups see this same benefit?)
6). The OO pilot group is generally satisfied with management. (My question: Is OO's management truly better - in both character & business acumen - than other airlines' management? Also, do OO pilots have different - lower or higher? - expectations for their management than pilot groups of other airlines?)

Thanks to all who commented and those who do so in the future, particularly in response to the questions in parentheses above.

Fixnem2Flyinem
01-03-2018, 11:16 PM
"Isn't SAPA kind of like a union anyway??" 😂🤣😂

TheFly
01-04-2018, 01:21 AM
Pilot representation isnít bad. But ALPA or any other union that represents mainline carriers as well as regionals is not going to work. I say no way to unions here....

Why no union? Ask Jimmy Hoffa.

dupe
01-04-2018, 01:42 AM
So, in other words... the company can raise first year pay to $100k if it wants to and not do anything for the rest of the pilots. And there's nothing the pilots can do collectively because they don't have a legally enforceable contract.

Sure, but the labor market brings its own power. If SkyWest did this, what would stop guys from leaving at year two? There is something Pilots can do: walk away.

rickair7777
01-04-2018, 06:01 AM
Pilot representation isnít bad. But ALPA or any other union that represents mainline carriers as well as regionals is not going to work. I say no way to unions here....

Why no union? Ask Jimmy Hoffa.

This is a biggie. I'm an enthusiastic alpa supporter at my current job, but not sure I want them representing pilot groups who exist to do my flying at a cut rate.

When I was in the regionals, I had trust issues with an organisation whose bread was clearly buttered on mainline side.

Kind of like hiring a defense lawyer who's actually a prosecutor, moonlighting to make extra money.

Almost seems like teamsters, for all their faults as a mob-ed up trucking union, would be more independent as a regional union.

amcnd
01-04-2018, 06:31 AM
5-20 years ago. The majority of OO pilots had experience from another alpa regionals. And when things at those regionals such as furlough, downgrading happened, ect... (me included) they came to SkyWest that has never done that. They felt a sense of security the way things are.. Fast forward to today more then 50% of the pilot group (2000+ pilots) have less then 3 years with the company and maybe 5-10% of that group has no alpa regional experience. I see in a year or two depending how things shake out, a alpa drive could win.. i think its a still wait and see if other truly match Endeavor.. not just rumors.. but truly match them and what management does to adress it...

msprj2
01-04-2018, 07:07 AM
5-20 years ago. The majority of OO pilots had experience from another alpa regionals. And when things at those regionals such as furlough, downgrading happened, ect... (me included) they came to SkyWest that has never done that. They felt a sense of security the way things are.. Fast forward to today more then 50% of the pilot group (2000+ pilots) have less then 3 years with the company and maybe 5-10% of that group has no alpa regional experience. I see in a year or two depending how things shake out, a alpa drive could win.. i think its a still wait and see if other truly match Endeavor.. not just rumors.. but truly match them and what management does to adress it...

Why would Skywest mgt change your ďcontract ď if they are hiring numbers are ok and the current Skywest pilots were fine with a 1% raise.
Rai

Is offline
01-04-2018, 08:22 PM
SkyWest benefits from everything unions do without paying 1.9%. With that being the case why unionize. ALPA worked out KCM with the Feds, but SkyWest benefits. Had they been excluded they might unionize. Skywest management gives them all of the flying with decent pay rates and ok work rules. Why pay a union when your getting it without the dues?

Pretty sure SkyWest pays the same KCM fees as everyone else. Your alpa dues had nothing to do with kcm and alpa was not the one running that show.

AboveMins
01-04-2018, 08:50 PM
Pretty sure SkyWest pays the same KCM fees as everyone else. Your alpa dues had nothing to do with kcm and alpa was not the one running that show.

https://mykcmsupport.com/acknowledgements/

I don't see the student council listed as a sponsor. Additionally, ALPA was a huge factor driving the creation of KCM. My ALPA dues had everything to do with KCM coming to fruition. Reality is quite a bit different from the Kool-aid shipped in from SGU.

Paid2flyfast
01-04-2018, 10:56 PM
SkyWest once was a great place to work (so Iíve been told) but without a union or representation of any kind, and with greedy management who cares two ****s about their employees, you get the ****ty regional we all work at now. SAPA is not representation, they are puppets, pilots at SkyWest have zero bargaining ability or negotiating power, work rules are vague gray areas skewed to screw you over if they want, trips are inefficient leaving you working more days for less pay and there is nothing you can do about it but complain on forums and tell other pilots to go elsewhere.

Insert: turkey coupon. TFAYD


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

gojo
01-05-2018, 08:33 AM
Pretty sure SkyWest pays the same KCM fees as everyone else. Your alpa dues had nothing to do with kcm and alpa was not the one running that show.

Are you efin serious? Maybe do some research before you spout off and look like a complete idiot

Check Complete
01-05-2018, 08:45 AM
Pretty sure SkyWest pays the same KCM fees as everyone else. Your alpa dues had nothing to do with kcm and alpa was not the one running that show.

Next time you go through KCM, look at the sign and you will see the ALPA logo right on it. Although there are some very good people working within SAPA, there is a extremely limited amount they can accomplish. The DHS wouldn't even consider SAPA as a tenant do to them being completely funded by SkyWest management. The company has taken disciplinary action against outspoken SAPA reps in the past, I personally know of 2 people that the company removed them from their LCA positions.

No, SAPA is not like a real union.

EFBprobs
01-05-2018, 09:49 AM
Everybody keeps touting this 1.9% number like it's a big deal. That 1.9% could get us 10%-15% over time. Not to mention other stuff. Did you know some pilots get rental cars on 30 hour overnights? Did you know some pilots get to park in short term parking on 2 hour call out? Commuter hotels? Per diem protection? Retention bonuses? OT on 85+ hours? 150% minimum open time? Block or better?

Sugar coat it all you want. Our QOL sucks compared to union gigs.

gojo
01-05-2018, 10:16 AM
Everybody keeps touting this 1.9% number like it's a big deal. That 1.9% could get us 10%-15% over time. Not to mention other stuff. Did you know some pilots get rental cars on 30 hour overnights? Did you know some pilots get to park in short term parking on 2 hour call out? Commuter hotels? Per diem protection? Retention bonuses? OT on 85+ hours? 150% minimum open time? Block or better?

Sugar coat it all you want. Our QOL sucks compared to union gigs.

Many people see that 1.8% and only think of it as money lost. While ALPA isnít perfect, and theyíre even less perfect at the regional level, they still do a lot for the industry. NAI is the biggest concern right now and I believe without ALPA foreign air carriers would already be doing USA domestic flying. There is a lot going on at the National level that a good percentage of that 1.8% helps support. A good thing to do would be to make a pros and cons list. But I suspect it would be hard to quantify the monetary and quality of life gains versus ALPA and SAPA. But Iím pretty sure youíd be money ahead after the 1.8% union dues are taken out

Truthanator
01-05-2018, 12:23 PM
Yeah! ALPA will get you everything you ever wanted at a regional airline! And more!

https://media.giphy.com/media/LVIbmaUwpRJ1C/giphy.gif

gojo
01-05-2018, 01:08 PM
Yeah! ALPA will get you everything you ever wanted at a regional airline! And more!

https://media.giphy.com/media/LVIbmaUwpRJ1C/giphy.gif

No one has said that in this thread!!!

TheFly
01-05-2018, 05:11 PM
No one has said that in this thread!!!

Thatís the point. No one has said it, because it has yet to be demonstrated. ALPA has yet to show that it can not be partial to the interest of the the majors at the expense of their mainline partner.

DirkDiggler
01-05-2018, 05:45 PM
Thatís the point. No one has said it, because it has yet to be demonstrated. ALPA has yet to show that it can not be partial to the interest of the the majors at the expense of their mainline partner.

It's true, ALPA will always look out for who is paying the most dues. Regional's make up a small portion of their total revenue. I spoke with Tim Canoll and Lee Moak (ALPA President's) and both have stated the only thing they can do to help solve the problem is focus on getting the regional ALPA members jobs at ALPA majors.... and not much mention of raising the pay. Regionals are in existence because labor is cheap.

With that being said, you don't need ALPA to form a union. You can go teamsters or start your own. I'm all for collective bargaining and having a legal contract to protect workers. Who cares if it's ALPA, or Big Ballz Pilots Union. Large corporations will not look out for the average worker's best interest, period. They will always put shareholder interests first. If they keep labor costs low, shareholders win.

gojo
01-05-2018, 06:39 PM
Thatís the point. No one has said it, because it has yet to be demonstrated. ALPA has yet to show that it can not be partial to the interest of the the majors at the expense of their mainline partner.

I donít even know how to respond to that. I mean, you act like youíve had your head in the sand, or somewhere up until till now? This is how itís been for a long time. And NO ONE is trying to sell it as being equal to mainline ALPA. The point is, SkyWest Pilots would probably gain much more than 1.8% or 1.9% whichever it is in monetary and quality of life improvements than you are able to achieve with your SAPA.

rickair7777
01-05-2018, 07:12 PM
The transient time builders are not going to waste time and energy on a union, they'll be afraid it will slow their upgrade... that has to come from senior lifers, and mid-grade possible lifers. The senior lifers are too well taken care of, even today. Also many of them have ranches, farms, businesses, even full-time jobs... they can have a normal life plus make an extra $150K flying standups 3-4 nights/week. In the west. Low motivation to rock that boat. A few folks like MM are exceptions... but when he punched, I saw the writing.

Remember most of the alpa chest thumpers from the eastern regionals did not earn a union, they inherited it from old-skool prop trash. And anybody from XJT has an ulterior motive... they want an SLI. Bad.

AboveMins
01-05-2018, 07:48 PM
Remember most of the alpa chest thumpers from the eastern regionals did not earn a union, they inherited it from old-skool prop trash. And anybody from XJT has an ulterior motive... they want an SLI. Bad.

Wow, you must be telepathic, Rick. Good thing you know what's going on in the mind of "anybody from XJT". In reality, we're not bootlickers, we'd never fit in over there. We wanted a SLI in the past to prevent this situation from unfolding the way it has. Today, I'd say 99% of us would rather sit in the unemployment line than ever come work for stInc.

fenix1
01-05-2018, 09:03 PM
What has prevented establishment of a REGIONAL-ONLY union? Such union may have to get nearly all regionals airlines (pilots) on-board to maximize effectiveness (except those regionals owned by legacy/major carriers...), but it's very clear & intuitive that ALPA doesn't or can't effectively represent their regional pilots and, in fact, ALPA must advocate against regional pilots to take care of those they really exist to support (legacy/major pilots). I'm not intending to call ALPA 'the devil' - just pointing out that it's odd they represent any regionals at all - and I'm also trying to understand why a regional-only union has never existed (seems like such an entity could wield A LOT of stroke going forward). Thoughts??

Bravix
01-05-2018, 09:49 PM
What has prevented establishment of a REGIONAL-ONLY union? Such union may have to get nearly all regionals airlines (pilots) on-board to maximize effectiveness (except those regionals owned by legacy/major carriers...), but it's very clear & intuitive that ALPA doesn't or can't effectively represent their regional pilots and, in fact, ALPA must advocate against regional pilots to take care of those they really exist to support (legacy/major pilots). I'm not intending to call ALPA 'the devil' - just pointing out that it's odd they represent any regionals at all - and I'm also trying to understand why a regional-only union has never existed (seems like such an entity could wield A LOT of stroke going forward). Thoughts??

ALPA doesn't represent the airline. The airline's MEC represents them. ALPA national doesn't have any ability to force the MEC to take one stance or another. Their only direct way of affecting regionals is through lobbying. ALPA just collects dues and provides resources for the MEC to make use of. That's a pretty basic description, a bit more to it than this of course...

That said, what benefit would a regional union provide? Okay, you say there's a conflict of interest. But national doesn't control how your MEC votes or acts. That's all internal, your coworkers making decisions.

Mercyful Fate
01-06-2018, 12:47 AM
Unions rule.

fenix1
01-06-2018, 01:15 AM
Understood - ALPA handles strategic issues/lobbying while individual airlinesí MECís handle contract negotiations/airline-specific matters. But the ties between ALPA & legacy/major MECís are close and theyíre both focused on the same thing: taking care of legacy/major pilots, which sometimes comes at the expense of regional pilotsí interests. The value in carving out the regionals from ALPA & creating a regional-only union would be to establish true representation for the interests of regional airline pilots at the strategic level just like ALPA does already for legacy/major pilots. Or are regional pilotsí interests best served in the long run through ALPA after all? (ie, do regional pilots interests get advanced more through ALPA dues - because of ALPAís established ability to influence & greater resources - than they would through a less-influential, regional-only union?). What benefits regional pilotsí more - representation from a union with deep pockets who canít do much for them today (conflict of interest) or representation from a less powerful union that exists solely to represent regional pilotsí interests?

I donít know what structure it would take, but unifying the interests of regional pilots should be powerful. Legacies & Alaska obviously want to do as much flying as possible on the cheap via regionals. Wouldnít this provide a place of value for a regional-only union and wouldnít a regional-only platform be well-equipped to promote meaningful change to benefit regional airline pilots? Or would a regional-only union really not have any meaningful influence & regional MECís are the only hope (airline-by-airline)?

ALPA doesn't represent the airline. The airline's MEC represents them. ALPA national doesn't have any ability to force the MEC to take one stance or another. Their only direct way of affecting regionals is through lobbying. ALPA just collects dues and provides resources for the MEC to make use of. That's a pretty basic description, a bit more to it than this of course...

That said, what benefit would a regional union provide? Okay, you say there's a conflict of interest. But national doesn't control how your MEC votes or acts. That's all internal, your coworkers making decisions.

rickair7777
01-06-2018, 06:25 AM
Wow, you must be telepathic, Rick. Good thing you know what's going on in the mind of "anybody from XJT". In reality, we're not bootlickers, we'd never fit in over there. We wanted a SLI in the past to prevent this situation from unfolding the way it has. Today, I'd say 99% of us would rather sit in the unemployment line than ever come work for stInc.

Nobody holds it against you for wanting a SLI, not at all, it's only common sense.

But the OO pilots did not choose to buy XJT, or have any say in that at all. It's only common sense for them to prefer not to do an SLI was a more senior group. They don't really have a moral imperative to rescue you by giving you their seniority.

The point being they need to consider the ramifications of certifying alpa specifically (vice teamsters, or in-house). And it doesn't require telepathy to see that XJT people who constantly come to the OO forum and advocate alpa have a conflict of interest.

rickair7777
01-06-2018, 06:47 AM
ALPA doesn't represent the airline. The airline's MEC represents them. ALPA national doesn't have any ability to force the MEC to take one stance or another. Their only direct way of affecting regionals is through lobbying. ALPA just collects dues and provides resources for the MEC to make use of. That's a pretty basic description, a bit more to it than this of course...

That said, what benefit would a regional union provide? Okay, you say there's a conflict of interest. But national doesn't control how your MEC votes or acts. That's all internal, your coworkers making decisions.

National *should* at least encourage discussion about the betterment of the industry, if not actually coordinate action towards that end. By "indusry" I mean contract feed, not airlines.

The problem is there are two different industries (airlines and contract feed), who have different business models, and separate labor groups... with competing interests. But since the bulk of national's revenue comes from airlines, not contract feeders, they have an incentive to perpetuate status quo.

Just so there's no confusion... airline pilots benefit from low wages at contract feeders. More money for them from the overall pot, plus there are many spoke destinations where the economics would not support narrowbodies (or RJ's flown at mainline wages). That feed is important to fill mainline aircraft. You just don't want too much of it, hence scope.

DirkDiggler
01-06-2018, 10:05 AM
Nobody holds it against you for wanting a SLI, not at all, it's only common sense.

But the OO pilots did not choose to buy XJT, or have any say in that at all. It's only common sense for them to prefer not to do an SLI was a more senior group. They don't really have a moral imperative to rescue you by giving you their seniority.

The point being they need to consider the ramifications of certifying alpa specifically (vice teamsters, or in-house). And it doesn't require telepathy to see that XJT people who constantly come to the OO forum and advocate alpa have a conflict of interest.

As I've stated many times, go teamsters or start you own. Nobody at XJT, and I mean nobody, except maybe a few ASA people would want to be merged with SkyWest. I personally would rather be flipping burgers or unemployed than have to lick management's cajones. There would be a huge culture clash. XJT is very much a rebellious pilot group in many ways, anti-hat, anti-company, especially when the morale gets low. With the few SkyWest guys I've spoken with I can tell it is vastly different over there.

Bravix
01-06-2018, 02:07 PM
Understood - ALPA handles strategic issues/lobbying while individual airlinesí MECís handle contract negotiations/airline-specific matters. But the ties between ALPA & legacy/major MECís are close and theyíre both focused on the same thing: taking care of legacy/major pilots, which sometimes comes at the expense of regional pilotsí interests. The value in carving out the regionals from ALPA & creating a regional-only union would be to establish true representation for the interests of regional airline pilots at the strategic level just like ALPA does already for legacy/major pilots. Or are regional pilotsí interests best served in the long run through ALPA after all? (ie, do regional pilots interests get advanced more through ALPA dues - because of ALPAís established ability to influence & greater resources - than they would through a less-influential, regional-only union?). What benefits regional pilotsí more - representation from a union with deep pockets who canít do much for them today (conflict of interest) or representation from a less powerful union that exists solely to represent regional pilotsí interests?

I donít know what structure it would take, but unifying the interests of regional pilots should be powerful. Legacies & Alaska obviously want to do as much flying as possible on the cheap via regionals. Wouldnít this provide a place of value for a regional-only union and wouldnít a regional-only platform be well-equipped to promote meaningful change to benefit regional airline pilots? Or would a regional-only union really not have any meaningful influence & regional MECís are the only hope (airline-by-airline)?

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I don't know enough about the finances of running a union to know which way would be more effective. Certainly need to consider economies of scale, you get a lot of bang for your buck through ALPA since they have so many people under their banner. An all regional would face the difficulty of needing to pull other regional carriers away from ALPA (and teamsters), which would be quite the task.

Then the funding for the new union, which would be pricey. Then growing pains. Then have to compete against ALPA on the national lobbying level...which would be difficult. ALPA would lose some dues if all regionals went to their own union, but major pilots still make wayyyyy more, so ALPA would have a considerably higher bankroll.

I'd guess its more cost effective to go through ALPA, but I don't know.

bamike
01-06-2018, 02:42 PM
As I've stated many times, go teamsters or start you own. Nobody at XJT, and I mean nobody, except maybe a few ASA people would want to be merged with SkyWest. I personally would rather be flipping burgers or unemployed than have to lick management's cajones. There would be a huge culture clash. XJT is very much a rebellious pilot group in many ways, anti-hat, anti-company, especially when the morale gets low. With the few SkyWest guys I've spoken with I can tell it is vastly different over there.

Anti-hat LOL :D. The real question is would you rather flip burgers than wear the hat?

gojo
01-06-2018, 03:03 PM
It really doesnít matter to me whether or not you all get a union. What gets me is the the reasons for not wanting one. Or the lack of sensible ones rather. I donít know what the hype is that corporate feeds you all? But it seems not many question it and do their own research. Itís almost like programmed to think BAD with just the mention of the word. Kinda like the name Voldemort on Harry Potter. Iím pretty sure that just one item of improvement, and Iím thinking block or better would more than make up for that cursed 1.9% dues. But whatever floats your boat. Itís your bank account

Mercyful Fate
01-07-2018, 07:42 AM
As I've stated many times, go teamsters or start you own. Nobody at XJT, and I mean nobody, except maybe a few ASA people would want to be merged with SkyWest. I personally would rather be flipping burgers or unemployed than have to lick management's cajones. There would be a huge culture clash. XJT is very much a rebellious pilot group in many ways, anti-hat, anti-company, especially when the morale gets low. With the few SkyWest guys I've spoken with I can tell it is vastly different over there.

Yea, if your toxic attitude is any reflection of your pilot group, it is no wonder things are in the toilet.

tomgoodman
01-07-2018, 07:59 AM
Anti-hat LOL :D.

Yeah, who doesnít like hats? :D

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/02/b2/48/02b24866602c4a5943652a1ce72f1cb7--bikini-ready-bikini-swimsuit.jpg

Mercyful Fate
01-07-2018, 08:03 AM
Yeah, who doesnít like hats? :D

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/02/b2/48/02b24866602c4a5943652a1ce72f1cb7--bikini-ready-bikini-swimsuit.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/vv44WO3.gif

Check Complete
01-07-2018, 08:04 AM
It really doesnít matter to me whether or not you all get a union. What gets me is the the reasons for not wanting one. Or the lack of sensible ones rather. I donít know what the hype is that corporate feeds you all? But it seems not many question it and do their own research. Itís almost like programmed to think BAD with just the mention of the word. Kinda like the name Voldemort on Harry Potter. Iím pretty sure that just one item of improvement, and Iím thinking block or better would more than make up for that cursed 1.9% dues. But whatever floats your boat. Itís your bank account

Anti union is the on, literally, the online front page and is one of the first things mentioned during the indoc cheerleading classes. You have to understand the Utah culture that resonates through SkyWest is one of zero outside thought of your own destiny and to do what your told from your elders. Do whats good for the company and you will prosper!

GearUpHeadDown
01-07-2018, 12:23 PM
Get over the union and find something else to complain about. A union will result in merged lists. Then youíll really have something to complain about!

DirkDiggler
01-07-2018, 12:37 PM
Get over the union and find something else to complain about. A union will result in merged lists. Then youíll really have something to complain about!

Go teamsters, then you won't have to worry about that. The L-XJT guys won't be looking to divide up their allocated 25% of UA's hiring with the CPP. A large chunk of the CA's will be going over in the next 1-2 years.

DirkDiggler
01-07-2018, 12:49 PM
Yea, if your toxic attitude is any reflection of your pilot group, it is no wonder things are in the toilet.

Just because somebody isn't a good company man like yourself, doesn't mean they have a toxic attitude. I would say keep talking but I'm having trouble hearing you while your head is between your ankles.

GearUpHeadDown
01-07-2018, 03:02 PM
Go teamsters, then you won't have to worry about that. The L-XJT guys won't be looking to divide up their allocated 25% of UA's hiring with the CPP. A large chunk of the CA's will be going over in the next 1-2 years.m

How about go nothing? It wonít do us any good.

gojo
01-07-2018, 03:10 PM
m

How about go nothing? It wonít do us any good.

That is just stupid talk. Thereís a reason all your peers at other companies are represented. And why is it that Skywest is the only non union company? Are you really that special? Or are you, well Iíll let you fill in the blank. I mean really, you can lead the donkey to water, but you sure as h$11 canít make him drink. Ugh, I canít understand how someone can be so blind. Or maybe the correct term would be brainwashed.

Skyhawk121
01-07-2018, 03:42 PM
Sugar coat it all you want. Our QOL sucks compared to union gigs.

Came from a regional "union gig" and I have to disagree. One of the selling point for me to come to SkyWest was getting away from a union because they don't offer the benefits to a regional that they offer to mainline.

You can disagree, but this is how I feel.

N1234
01-07-2018, 03:49 PM
That is just stupid talk. Thereís a reason all your peers at other companies are represented. And why is it that Skywest is the only non union company? Are you really that special? Or are you, well Iíll let you fill in the blank. I mean really, you can lead the donkey to water, but you sure as h$11 canít make him drink. Ugh, I canít understand how someone can be so blind. Or maybe the correct term would be brainwashed.

The beauty is that there are plenty of union gigs out there.

Just pick your union nirvana somewhere else and let the "non-believers" over here do our thing.

gojo
01-07-2018, 03:53 PM
Came from a regional "union gig" and I have to disagree. One of the selling point for me to come to SkyWest was getting away from a union because they don't offer the benefits to a regional that they offer to mainline.

You can disagree, but this is how I feel.

But they definitely offer more than SAPA. Have you ever thought about getting involved to try to improve things instead of running for cover??? Probably not. Letís instead blame the process instead of being part of the solution.

gojo
01-07-2018, 04:00 PM
The beauty is that there are plenty of union gigs out there.

Just pick your union nirvana somewhere else and let the "non-believers" over here do our thing.

Well I would be totally okay with that if you all would contribute in a positive way rather than lowering the bar and getting a free ride on hard fought ALPA benefits to this industry. Itís time to step up to the plate and make positive advances to the regional sector, rather than bringing it down. I mean come on, how can you even justify Skywest's lack of contributions with a straight face? Be the solution rather than the problem.

DirkDiggler
01-07-2018, 05:28 PM
Well I would be totally okay with that if you all would contribute in a positive way rather than lowering the bar and getting a free ride on hard fought ALPA benefits to this industry. Itís time to step up to the plate and make positive advances to the regional sector, rather than bringing it down. I mean come on, how can you even justify Skywest's lack of contributions with a straight face? Be the solution rather than the problem.


^^ Well said.

HermannGraf
01-07-2018, 06:58 PM
Well I would be totally okay with that if you all would contribute in a positive way rather than lowering the bar and getting a free ride on hard fought ALPA benefits to this industry. Itís time to step up to the plate and make positive advances to the regional sector, rather than bringing it down. I mean come on, how can you even justify Skywest's lack of contributions with a straight face? Be the solution rather than the problem.

Well said!

jtsastre
01-07-2018, 08:54 PM
getting a free ride on hard fought ALPA benefits to this industry.

And what benefits are these? If youíre talking KCM there are many airlines apart of this program that PAY to participate that arenít ALPA. Itís a great program collaborated by ALPA but by no means is SkyWest or any other non-ALPA company gaining a ďfree ride.Ē

Flogger
01-08-2018, 04:59 AM
And what benefits are these? If youíre talking KCM there are many airlines apart of this program that PAY to participate that arenít ALPA. Itís a great program collaborated by ALPA but by no means is SkyWest or any other non-ALPA company gaining a ďfree ride.Ē

The point is KCM and many other programs would not exist without the political clout and work of ALPA.

There are other unions such as APA which do make contributions, but it is the sheer size of ALPA which gives it the sole ability to have a seat at policy making tables.

Don't get me wrong-ALPA sucks!!

But, it is obvious the pilots of Skywest blatantly coat-tail on many ALPA programs and safety initiatives.

rickair7777
01-08-2018, 06:10 AM
The point is KCM and many other programs would not exist without the political clout and work of ALPA.

There are other unions such as APA which do make contributions, but it is the sheer size of ALPA which gives it the sole ability to have a seat at policy making tables.

Don't get me wrong-ALPA sucks!!

But, it is obvious the pilots of Skywest blatantly coat-tail on many ALPA programs and safety initiatives.

I'm glad you're so butt hurt. Nobody came to SKW to coat-tail on anything. Some came to escape alpa regionals, many were CFI's who were oblivious to unions, all they wanted back then was an airline job, preferably near home.

Most alpa benefits are for members only. But if alpa encourages a government program, you don't get to claim "ownership"... government stuff is inherently equally available to all taxpayers. If you don't want goodies available to all, then do a private venture, don't talk the government into doing it for you. I pay for TSA, not alpa.

Flogger
01-08-2018, 07:48 AM
I'm glad you're so butt hurt. Nobody came to SKW to coat-tail on anything. Some came to escape alpa regionals, many were CFI's who were oblivious to unions, all they wanted back then was an airline job, preferably near home.

Most alpa benefits are for members only. But if alpa encourages a government program, you don't get to claim "ownership"... government stuff is inherently equally available to all taxpayers. If you don't want goodies available to all, then do a private venture, don't talk the government into doing it for you. I pay for TSA, not alpa.

You are 100% correct and entitled to feel this way. The fact is the profession needs your support.

Please think about how different your life would be without many of the ALPA advocated benefits.

You're getting the bennies without paying for it. That's great, but perhaps your life could be even better if you supported the profession?

If there was a way to support the profession without ALPA, I'd be all over it, but there simply ain't an alternative that I can think of.

AboveMins
01-08-2018, 10:32 AM
Most alpa benefits are for members only. But if alpa encourages a government program, you don't get to claim "ownership"... government stuff is inherently equally available to all taxpayers.

If you put the Kool-Aid down for a moment and read his post, you'll see that he wasn't claiming "ALPA ownership" of anything. He was stating a simple fact, that without ALPA, KCM wouldn't exist.

The point is KCM and many other programs would not exist without the political clout and work of ALPA.

Seems as if SGU is pouring the extra strength stuff for you guys nowadays.

snackysmores
01-09-2018, 01:26 PM
SkyWest benefits from everything unions do without paying 1.9%. With that being the case why unionize. ALPA worked out KCM with the Feds, but SkyWest benefits. Had they been excluded they might unionize. Skywest management gives them all of the flying with decent pay rates and ok work rules. Why pay a union when your getting it without the dues?

Disgusting mentality.

rickair7777
01-09-2018, 02:58 PM
If you put the Kool-Aid down for a moment and read his post, you'll see that he wasn't claiming "ALPA ownership" of anything. He was stating a simple fact, that without ALPA, KCM wouldn't exist.



Seems as if SGU is pouring the extra strength stuff for you guys nowadays.

I was never one for the koolaid., I voted yes ten years ago and am an enthusiastic union supporter at my legacy.

But I'm not afraid to throw the bs flag when non-OO people come to the OO forum to spew sanctimonious crap about how people should feel guilty or something. Try to sell them on it (without lying too much)? Sure. Try to guilt them about it? Get lost, it's a free country.

DirkDiggler
01-09-2018, 03:06 PM
Air Georgian
Air Transat
Air Transport International
Air Wisconsin
Alaska Airlines
Atlantic Southeast Airlines
Bearskin Airlines
Calm Air
Canadian North
Commutair
Compass Airlines
Delta Air Lines
Endeavor Air
Envoy Air
ExpressJet
FedEx Express
First Air
Frontier Airlines
Hawaiian Airlines
Island Air
Jazz
JetBlue Airways
Kelowna Flightcraft Ltd.
Mesa Air Group
Piedmont Airlines
PSA Airlines
Spirit Airlines
Sun Country Airlines
Trans States Airlines
United Airlines
Virgin America
Wasaya
WestJet

All these labor groups working together.... they must be a bunch of fools! Fools I tell you! :D

Truthanator
01-09-2018, 04:21 PM
I'm sorry, I need to be reminded every once in a while because I'm old and occasionally drunk.
Was ALPA around when our "profession" was sold down the river by Legacy pilot groups....twice?
Was ALPA on property while Comair was getting the "industry" best pay and work rules, and then dumped naked on the side of our "profession's" runway?
Would these events be categorized as "lowering the bar" or "raising the bar"?

Oh wait, I'm not drunk yet and these are rhetorical questions.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3vR4vEngyesMbeBG/giphy.gif

Flogger
01-09-2018, 08:20 PM
I'm sorry, I need to be reminded every once in a while because I'm old and occasionally drunk.
Was ALPA around when our "profession" was sold down the river by Legacy pilot groups....twice?
Was ALPA on property while Comair was getting the "industry" best pay and work rules, and then dumped naked on the side of our "profession's" runway?
Would these events be categorized as "lowering the bar" or "raising the bar"?

Oh wait, I'm not drunk yet and these are rhetorical questions.

https://media.giphy.com/media/l3vR4vEngyesMbeBG/giphy.gif

I did say ALPA sucks. Money calls the shots on scope and whipsaw. So, at the regional level ALPA sucks.

That being said, ALPA is the only professional association available to us which has the political clout and ability to actually affect our profession.

The list is long, but without ALPA constantly beating K Street there would be no HIMS, KCM, Jumpseat, Crew Rest or ASAP to name a few.

Guilt has nothing to do with it. We should all strive to support our profession.

StlLifer
01-09-2018, 09:11 PM
I did say ALPA sucks. Money calls the shots on scope and whipsaw. So, at the regional level ALPA sucks.

That being said, ALPA is the only professional association available to us which has the political clout and ability to actually affect our profession.

The list is long, but without ALPA constantly beating K Street there would be no HIMS, KCM, Jumpseat, Crew Rest or ASAP to name a few.

Guilt has nothing to do with it. We should all strive to support our profession.

The ALPA carriers were the last to get the jumpseat. When I started I could not jumpseat on Northwest, Delta, American and Contentinal. Southwest, USAir, TWA, Pan Am, ATA, MGM Grand, America West were the best. On all the ALPA carriers it was still highly restricted. ATA really got it going with their unlimited jumpsuits. Pan Am had the best food. Yes, they actually had food back then. The lobster thermador was pretty good but the hot fudge sundays were usually pretty melted.

AboveMins
01-10-2018, 02:27 PM
But I'm not afraid to throw the bs flag when non-OO people come to the OO forum to spew sanctimonious crap about how people should feel guilty or something. Try to sell them on it (without lying too much)? Sure. Try to guilt them about it? Get lost, it's a free country.

LOL! Calm down, Sparky! You're missing the forest through the trees again. Funny you should bring up guilt. No one was trying to guilt anybody, only to set something you said straight. If you want to play the guilt game, sure... The SkyWest pilot group should feel guilty and ashamed for signing on to such an abysmal "contract" (and I use that term very, VERY loosely). It's a move that will hurt all of us at the regionals.

rickair7777
01-11-2018, 06:59 AM
LOL! Calm down, Sparky! You're missing the forest through the trees again. Funny you should bring up guilt. No one was trying to guilt anybody, only to set something you said straight. If you want to play the guilt game, sure... The SkyWest pilot group should feel guilty and ashamed for signing on to such an abysmal "contract" (and I use that term very, VERY loosely). It's a move that will hurt all of us at the regionals.

The swing voters were too busy updating their apps, as they should. You can't win the regional game, so I wouldn't waste too much energy on that.

If you really must spend your career at a regional, may as well get settled in as management's prison girlfriend, and buy lube on Amazon with the auto reorder option.

amcnd
01-11-2018, 09:04 AM
Not to mention alpa is only as good as the reps that run.. any time i ask any of the ďpro alpaĒ push guys if they will run for President. They say no way... yet the want alpa in. Makes me scratch my head. But thatís typically OO around here. The guys that want it want the benefit if what ever we get from alpa but without all the work...

Flogger
01-11-2018, 09:33 AM
Not to mention alpa is only as good as the reps that run.. any time i ask any of the ďpro alpaĒ push guys if they will run for President. They say no way... yet the want alpa in. Makes me scratch my head. But thatís typically OO around here. The guys that want it want the benefit if what ever we get from alpa but without all the work...

I have been wasting keystrokes on this and I know that. The Skywest guys are cool with getting the bennies of being in a union-without paying for it. Their pay, medical benefits, quality of life-all of it-they are all due to unionized pilots fighting for them somewhere else. Management treats them just well enough to keep a union of the property.

OK, so there's no sense arguing that point anymore.

My reasoning on this thread has been that perhaps I could appeal to their sense of professionalism. There really is no other way to support our profession than the turd-sandwich which is ALP.

All the many union backed safety and professional initiatives benefit our profession as a whole and I would hope they could see that.

ALPA dues are the tax you pay for those benefits and frankly, the profession needs the Skywest pilots to step up and contribute. They are part of a monster sized regional and could make a huge impact.

rickair7777
01-11-2018, 11:26 AM
I have been wasting keystrokes on this and I know that. The Skywest guys are cool with getting the bennies of being in a union-without paying for it. Their pay, medical benefits, quality of life-all of it-they are all due to unionized pilots fighting for them somewhere else. Management treats them just well enough to keep a union of the property.



You personally didn't accomplish this, you inherited it from some people who worked under horrible conditions years ago and did what they had to do to improve their lot. They weren't doing it for the betterment of everybody else (although alpa has certainly evolved to be a factor in the industry).

Kind of like claiming you're on a state champion football team... because they took state back in 1978.

Back in the day SKW was a great place to work so a union never caught on.

Check Complete
01-11-2018, 04:32 PM
Back in the day SKW was a great place to work so a union never caught on.


Key words: back in the day!

rickair7777
01-11-2018, 05:21 PM
Key words: back in the day!

That was why I voted yes in 07 (or was it 06?). Not because we needed it, but because I was afraid we might.

EFBprobs
01-13-2018, 08:11 PM
Cuz the pilots here are as salty as the dang lake.

HermannGraf
01-18-2018, 10:36 AM
That was why I voted yes in 07 (or was it 06?). Not because we needed it, but because I was afraid we might.

Skywest has the most anti union pilot group in the world as it has been very successful in attracting pilot’s that do not understand Unions and see them as Socialism or Communism only out to destroy companies or steal your money.

To say that the IQ and information level is low among those pilots is an understatement as they do not even understand what the different words or terms mean but they heard it so many times over and over again with a meaning as something like the “devil” that it becomes a mantra and belief not matter what you try to tell them. That in combination with that the company knows very well what kind of pilot group it has and takes advantage of it by lying in their face over and over again does not make the situation easier.

The Company with help of SAPA makes this pilot group believe what ever they need to get exactly the pay packages they want which has happened over and over without the pilot group learning anything from it. Thanks to SAPA the Company has a great tool to enforce, sell and push down the throat pay packages that can only be voted “yes” at Skywest. I do not blame the company for any of this. They are excellent at their part of the game. Their part is to make the most profit possible and no one does it better than Chip and Co.

No other airline in the world has grown more, expanded more than Skywest no one has open more new hangars, bought more airplanes kept more hundreds of million of cash in the bank while at the same time telling it’s pilots that they are winning highly paid primadonas that actually do not even work and that the company can’t afford to pay them more if they want to keep their jobs.

Skywest has a very skillful and greedy Management that is supposed to be balanced by a strong organized pilot group that is supposed to save the company and management from themselves in times like today. Skywest is again managed by the most skillful management that can beat any competitor when it comes to run an airline but what they are not good and never has been is Staffing and Staffing is the only thing that can and will take Skywest down and it starts like we have by becoming the lowest paying operator.

I know that the TA’s out there are waking up even the most anti union people at Skywest and for now they think and say that the company will adapt and do the changes they need themselves and that a Union is not needed but that is more of believing the “boss is a good guy and cares about us” mentality. I am certain that in the near future even these hard core John Wayne’s anti Union guys will change their mind. It is only a matter of time.

The company won a short term victory by lying and Using SAPA to sell to the pilot’s again an insulting and in these times criminally low pay package using tools like letting first year employees vote for the first time, buying the votes of the most senior lifers by giving them the highgest 401K increase etc etc but in the long run they may loose big by this last pay package as it is exactly what this pilot group needed to wake up and see the right face of management.

Skywest has been until now the world fastest growing airline in the history of aviation and the money comes from the profit that they long ago should have shared with it’s pilots. Nothing wrong in growing, nothing wrong in being greedy and nothing wrong in trying to make the highest profits by not even paying its pilot’s fair salaries but it is wrong not to adapt to the new market climate and make us the “New Mesa” that when the Aussie pilot mill runs out will not attract many pilots here in the US.

We need the company to correct the pay at all levels of seniority to attract but more importantly retain the pilots. Our attrition is growing from around 40 to 60 per month and that is a %50 increase and even if we fill classes for now with the Skywest 2.0 more are leaving. Staffing will take Skywest down if the pilot group does not wake up and stops management. Management shows for now clearly that we need a Union.

N6279P
01-18-2018, 10:52 AM
^ Dude, have you ever heard of paragraphs?

HermannGraf
01-18-2018, 10:56 AM
^ Dude, have you ever heard of paragraphs?

Did you get the point?

Flogger
01-19-2018, 07:07 AM
You personally didn't accomplish this, you inherited it from some people who worked under horrible conditions years ago and did what they had to do to improve their lot. They weren't doing it for the betterment of everybody else (although alpa has certainly evolved to be a factor in the industry).

Kind of like claiming you're on a state champion football team... because they took state back in 1978.

Back in the day SKW was a great place to work so a union never caught on.

I never used the words I or WE. I said ALPA.

rafaelitopz
01-29-2018, 06:19 PM
What does OO mean?

Check Complete
01-29-2018, 09:42 PM
What does OO mean?

Itís a symbol for nipples, as in ďwe suckĒ!

WesternSkies
01-29-2018, 10:13 PM
What does OO mean?

It is the sound passengers make when we land.

CRJ All Day
01-30-2018, 04:59 AM
What does OO mean?

Occasionally On-Time

jacburn
01-30-2018, 05:14 AM
What does OO mean?

Skywest two letter code. Like AA or UA (American or Untied)

Mercyful Fate
01-30-2018, 06:42 AM
Itís a symbol for nipples, as in ďwe suckĒ!

You that big of a narcissist that you feel your opinion speaks for your work group?

word302
01-30-2018, 07:20 AM
You that big of a narcissist that you feel your opinion speaks for your work group?

Well supposedly you arenít even a part of this work group yet you think your opinion speaks for us.

TheFly
01-30-2018, 01:54 PM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/envoy-airlines/110988-whats-union-doing.html
This might help answer the question.

Mercyful Fate
01-30-2018, 02:05 PM
Well supposedly you arenít even a part of this work group yet you think your opinion speaks for us.

Never once said my opinion speaks for anyone. Once again, massive failure on your part.

TransWorld
01-31-2018, 04:37 AM
Skywest two letter code. Like AA or UA (American or Untied)

And here, all these years, I though AA stood for a group of pilots with a drinking problem. Itís an old joke, but I could not resist.:D

amcnd
01-31-2018, 04:38 AM
No union can be summed up by looking at the VP vote.. only 20% of the pilot group even voted.. thats 3,500 pilots that cant find 10 seconds in 7 days to vote...

peepz
01-31-2018, 05:44 AM
No union can be summed up by looking at the VP vote.. only 20% of the pilot group even voted.. thats 3,500 pilots that cant find 10 seconds in 7 days to vote...

To me it is a showing that eight percent of the pilots do not like or believe in the student council nor do we care for their opinion. SAPA is the biggest scam behind historical credit.

SMACFUM
01-31-2018, 06:44 AM
No union can be summed up by looking at the VP vote.. only 20% of the pilot group even voted.. thats 3,500 pilots that cant find 10 seconds in 7 days to vote...

I made a conscientious decision not to vote. SAPA is a sham organization. I refuse to take any part of it, or give it any legitimacy by participating in it. They are wholly paid for and controlled my management.

I agree though that the level of ignorance, apathy, and indifference on the part of this pilot group is scary and pathetic. Itís an embarrassment to us as a pilot group, and to the ďprofessionĒ in general. Although I doubt itís strictly a SKW problem, itís seems to be acutely worse here. I also see it as being a generational/age issue too.

Just my 2Ę

peepz
01-31-2018, 09:53 AM
To me it is a showing that eight percent of the pilots do not like or believe in the student council nor do we care for their opinion. SAPA is the biggest scam behind historical credit.

Meant to say eighty percent not 8 percent.

Check Complete
01-31-2018, 12:06 PM
Let's just say SkyWest management has invested wisely in SAPA!

Huge return on investment!

As in Donald Trump huuuuuuuuuge!

amcnd
01-31-2018, 12:35 PM
Let's just say SkyWest management has invested wisely in SAPA!

Huge return on investment!

As in Donald Trump huuuuuuuuuge!

I wouldnít say winning with 326 votes out of 4598 pilots, was a huge company investment...