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View Full Version : 2018 Tentative Agreement


KCaviator
01-06-2018, 12:27 PM
Details regarding the new TA will be out within an hour. Anything good or bad can be posted here.


ORD170
01-06-2018, 12:51 PM
Not Endeavor rates. First year goes to $45 for FO max at 60.05 in 2020 at year 9 pay.

Captains pay tops out above Endeavor though at the top rates.

Base2Final
01-06-2018, 12:54 PM
No. Sorry, but that's not gonna help retain nor hire. Endeavour or nothing. The Irish man has struck again.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


knewyork
01-06-2018, 01:06 PM
Same for me. Endeavor or nothing.

ORD170
01-06-2018, 01:11 PM
Iím a no vote, and I donít see how it passes. I suspect this was management testing the waters.

knewyork
01-06-2018, 01:14 PM
This is not gonna go well. This group wonít settle for this.

Crownie
01-06-2018, 01:15 PM
13 year captain would be making $10 per hour less than an endeavor cr9 captain and $4 less per hour than a crj200 captain with this t/a!
Add me to the no vote total.

aperfcrcle
01-06-2018, 01:23 PM
Nope. PDO is also laughable.

flydiamond
01-06-2018, 02:01 PM
As someone from Endeavor I urge you to insist on Endeavor rates or better! Let's keep Endeavor from being an anamoly with regional pilot pay and instead raise all ships! Vote no. You're worth every bit as much as we are, maybe more since like someone had said there is no career progression or positive space commuting for you.

blindfayth
01-06-2018, 02:10 PM
Can anyone share the details, or is it to be kept confidential for a while?

ORD170
01-06-2018, 02:20 PM
The FO payrates never reach Endeavor rates. First year dos $45.00 / $45.68 / $46.36. Second Year dos $50.00 / $51.00 / $52.02 Five year dos $53.06/ $54.12 / $55.20

SEPfield
01-06-2018, 02:39 PM
Wow. Thatís disappointing. Was really expecting more from your management. That barely beats the current rates at Compass.

Hopefully the next TA will look better after you vote No to this one.

Unless youíre planning to be SkyWest Part 2

ex9driver
01-06-2018, 02:50 PM
Below top rates of Endeavor plus no retention bonus equals NO vote. The corporate tax rate has been slashed in tax reform. Remember also anyone soon to upgrade will endure an abusive reserve system that could have been addressed. As a senior FO with good schedules now going to reserve you will be shocked how bad it is. You will be used and abused. To make matters worse you have no flow. Tell them to pound sand!

ORD170
01-06-2018, 02:54 PM
35% / 65% doesnít pass. Thatís if it even goes to a vote, which is probably in doubt now.

KCaviator
01-06-2018, 02:59 PM
Wow. Thatís disappointing. Was really expecting more from your management. That barely beats the current rates at Compass.

Hopefully the next TA will look better after you vote No to this one.

Unless youíre planning to be SkyWest Part 2

Youíre comparing an average increase of 20% for CAís and 18% for FOís to SkyWestís 1% increase?

Not even close.

prex8390
01-06-2018, 03:03 PM
You guys deserve much much better than this. Keep fighting the good fight!

Crownie
01-06-2018, 03:09 PM
Youíre comparing an average increase of 20% for CAís and 18% for FOís to SkyWestís 1% increase?

Not even close.


20%for captains? Only about 6% for the 1st year, nowhere near 20%. Endeavor didn't have to wait 3 years to get their full pay raise and neither should we.

MileHi
01-06-2018, 03:42 PM
20%for captains? Only about 6% for the 1st year, nowhere near 20%. Endeavor didn't have to wait 3 years to get their full pay raise and neither should we.

Food for thought:
As of 1/1/2020, RAH CA rates will be equal or higher than those of Endeavor. That's less than 2 years, not 3. At that time, republic's nc will be back at the negotiating table. Endeavor's? Who knows?
Their CBA is till 2024. Also, how bout this....
Would you rather have Endeavor rates now but be forced to accept:
Junior Manning
NYC Co-basing
A reduction to 4 hours min day
A 30% increase in insurance premiums
Zero dollars HSA company contribution
An average line award of 76 hours (vs 87 at RAH) while averaging the same days off (14)

Truly objective apples to apples comparisons don't just include pay rates.

ORD170
01-06-2018, 03:46 PM
Also allows the company to offer unlimited bonuses to new hires. This includes tuition reimbursement. They will be using this, and it will result in FO currently on the seniority list getting less pay then new hires. Also the company will never be short of FOs again.


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AnotherWriter
01-06-2018, 04:02 PM
Food for thought:
As of 1/1/2020, RAH CA rates will be equal or higher than those of Endeavor. That's less than 2 years, not 3. At that time, republic's nc will be back at the negotiating table. Endeavor's? Who knows?
Their CBA is till 2024. Also, how bout this....
Would you rather have Endeavor rates now but be forced to accept:
Junior Manning
NYC Co-basing
A reduction to 4 hours min day
A 30% increase in insurance premiums
Zero dollars HSA company contribution
An average line award of 76 hours (vs 87 at RAH) while averaging the same days off (14)

Truly objective apples to apples comparisons don't just include pay rates.

Just to set the record straight here...

Junior manning: haven't ever seen it happen at EDV.

NYC Codomicile: industry standard. DL, AA, and UA all have it. No other regional has a presence at all three like EDV and Republic.

4 hour min day: I don't know what YX's is, but if its higher, sure you win.

Insurance: Well, I guess it depends who you are and what level of coverage you need.

HSA: EDV contributes up to $750 dollars/yr into that.

Line awards: Not sure how to discuss this one honestly, but I've had plenty of 90 hour lines by choice as a mid-range seniority FO with 15-16 days off. Most people I know flying the CRJ900 or with better than 50% seniority on the 200 flying 14 or less days off are crediting >100 hours. Everything we pickup off OT is 150%.

A lot of your points seem directed towards the senior pilots so lemme offer this too about Endeavor. We match up to 12.5% of your 401k contribution for the senior guys. And they'll run that match on any contributions made in the "catch up" category if you're eligible.

ORD170
01-06-2018, 04:02 PM
As expected the scare tactics have started. Didnít expect it from the union though. This is exactly what happened with the last contract. Donít be intimidated by scare tactics.

flydiamond
01-06-2018, 04:08 PM
Food for thought:
Junior Manning
Zero dollars HSA company contribution
An average line award of 76 hours (vs 87 at RAH) while averaging the same days off (14)

Truly objective apples to apples comparisons don't just include pay rates.

Not much junior manning takes place at a Endeavor. Additionally, the average block hours per duty period in January system wide on the 900 (the bulk of our fleet) was 5:20. At 16.5 days average worked/14 off that's 87 hours here as well (and it's skewed lower by our stand ups, which I don't believe Republic has). Finally, Endeavor contributes $1300 per year towards a family's HSA.

I'm not arguing I'm just saying that ya'll deserve and should get Endeavor pay rates now...not in 2020.

ORD170
01-06-2018, 04:19 PM
Food for thought:
As of 1/1/2020, RAH CA rates will be equal or higher than those of Endeavor. That's less than 2 years, not 3. At that time, republic's nc will be back at the negotiating table. Endeavor's? Who knows?
Their CBA is till 2024. Also, how bout this....
Would you rather have Endeavor rates now but be forced to accept:
Junior Manning
NYC Co-basing
A reduction to 4 hours min day
A 30% increase in insurance premiums
Zero dollars HSA company contribution
An average line award of 76 hours (vs 87 at RAH) while averaging the same days off (14)

Truly objective apples to apples comparisons don't just include pay rates.

Very informative 1st post. So are you on the NC or in management. Not looking too good for this TA on the pilots FB page.

Crownie
01-06-2018, 04:23 PM
Food for thought:
As of 1/1/2020, RAH CA rates will be equal or higher than those of Endeavor. That's less than 2 years, not 3. At that time, republic's nc will be back at the negotiating table. Endeavor's? Who knows?
Their CBA is till 2024. Also, how bout this....
Would you rather have Endeavor rates now but be forced to accept:
Junior Manning
NYC Co-basing
A reduction to 4 hours min day
A 30% increase in insurance premiums
Zero dollars HSA company contribution
An average line award of 76 hours (vs 87 at RAH) while averaging the same days off (14)

Truly objective apples to apples comparisons don't just include pay rates.

Endeavor took their bonus and turned it into pay rates (which was very smart) and by working more than 80 however many hours a month will make more with their new pay rate than what their bonus paid out. How long have they been paying that bonus which has put their pay well above ours? Years! Now our union is telling us that it's ok though because in a couple of years we will pass them. How much changes between now and then? It sound like most of those things that you said we'd be forced to accept have been debunked by endeavor pilots. All in saying is something along the lines of a bird in the hand vs 2 in the bush.

chrisreedrules
01-06-2018, 04:29 PM
Much of the regional industry is likely 6-12 months away from new TAs for improved work rules and Endeavoresque compensation. If you don’t find this TA satisfactory (I know I sure wouldn’t), by all means vote it down. I don’t think you have a single thing to lose by voting “no” on this. The speed at which the industry is moving will force your managment to pay more one way or the other. “Endeavor or better” isn’t simply some cattle call. It should be the new standard because we’re worth that and more.

MileHi
01-06-2018, 04:34 PM
-Not using junior manning "very often" is a far cry from NOT CONTRACTUALLY PERMITTED.
-Their bump in HSA contributions still lacks republic's by 35%.
-Their Healthcare premiums are 30%+ higher than republic's
-Their average line value SYSTEM WIDE (not just selectively factoring the 900s) is 14 days off with 76 hours credit.
-And we haven't even touched on the "industry standard" co-basing that republic does not have.
Oh, and republic (and other carriers) credit 4.2 minimum, not 4.0

MileHi
01-06-2018, 04:35 PM
Much of the regional industry is likely 6-12 months away from new TAs for improved work rules and Endeavoresque compensation. If you donít find this TA satisfactory (I know I sure wouldnít), by all means vote it down. I donít think you have a single thing to lose by voting ďnoĒ on this. The speed at which the industry is moving will force your managment to pay more one way or the other. ďEndeavor or betterĒ isnít simply some cattle call. It should be the new standard because weíre worth that and more.

Don't you work for PSA? I really don't have much to say other than that.

Crownie
01-06-2018, 04:52 PM
-Not using junior manning "very often" is a far cry from NOT CONTRACTUALLY PERMITTED.
-Their bump in HSA contributions still lacks republic's by 35%.
-Their Healthcare premiums are 30%+ higher than republic's
-Their average line value SYSTEM WIDE (not just selectively factoring the 900s) is 14 days off with 76 hours credit.
-And we haven't even touched on the "industry standard" co-basing that republic does not have.
Oh, and republic (and other carriers) credit 4.2 minimum, not 4.0

Yet the company is CONTRACTUALLY PERMITTED to pay any overtime at 100% They can still pay straight time for it. They CAN pay 150 or 200% but aren't contractually forced to. And yea, I'd give up 12 minutes of min day pay which doesn't kick in all that often for an extra $10 per hour. Or you could have said that for tuition reimbursement which according to you was a big ask, we 'll just keep out min day at 4.2.

Otterbox
01-06-2018, 04:52 PM
Don't you work for PSA? I really don't have much to say other than that.

Three posts in- Who do you work for?

You donít sound like an Republic Line pilot- youíre way too excited about a TA fails to deliver and will hopefully be voted down to show that Republic pilots deserve industry leading pay now, not what may be industry standard or less in three years time.

Republic set the bar a couple years ago which sparked the industry wide pay increases everyone has enjoyed. No reason they should settle for mediocre this time around.

flydiamond
01-06-2018, 05:00 PM
-Not using junior manning "very often" is a far cry from NOT CONTRACTUALLY PERMITTED.
-Their bump in HSA contributions still lacks republic's by 35%.
-Their Healthcare premiums are 30%+ higher than republic's
-Their average line value SYSTEM WIDE (not just selectively factoring the 900s) is 14 days off with 76 hours credit.
-And we haven't even touched on the "industry standard" co-basing that republic does not have.
Oh, and republic (and other carriers) credit 4.2 minimum, not 4.0

HSA contributions look to be 800 for individual/1600 family at republic, 700/1300 at Endeavor. I can't find the exact cost of Republic insurance , but the Republic contract says the company pays at least 65% of the cost of the PPO plan... same exact language in Endeavor's contract. Where are you getting these 30 and 35% higher at Endeavor figures?

Also, it is perfectly reasonable to compare Republic's TA terms to Endeavor's 900 figures. Endeavor will be 74% crj700/900 by June.

Finally, codomicile came in exchange for positive space second attempt commuting. They'll even buy a passenger off the flight if needed for you to get you to work. While most pilots aren't too happy about the codomicile, positive space commuting is a game changer. The company and union have been showing positive progress at getting improvements to transportation between the two airports.

ORD170
01-06-2018, 05:06 PM
HSA contributions look to be 800 for individual/1600 family at republic, 700/1300 at Endeavor. I can't find the exact cost of Republic insurance , but the Republic contract says the company pays at least 65% of the cost of the PPO plan... same exact language in Endeavor's contract. Where are you getting these 30 and 35% higher at Endeavor figures?

Also, it is perfectly reasonable to compare Republic's TA terms to Endeavor's 900 figures. Endeavor will be 74% crj700/900 by June.

Finally, codomicile came in exchange for positive space second attempt commuting. They'll even buy a passenger off the flight if needed for you to get you to work. While most pilots aren't too happy about the codomicile, positive space commuting is a game changer. The company and union have been showing positive progress at getting improvements to transportation between the two airports.

Heís either management or on the NC trying to sell this poop sandwich. He has a large amount of data to be just a line pilot.

BeastieBoy
01-06-2018, 05:13 PM
No. Sorry, but that's not gonna help retain nor hire. Endeavour or nothing. The Irish man has struck again.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

If he can get it passed maybe he can be a VP someday too!

ex9driver
01-06-2018, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by MileHi
Food for thought:
As of 1/1/2020, RAH CA rates will be equal or higher than those of Endeavor. That's less than 2 years, not 3. At that time, republic's nc will be back at the negotiating table. Endeavor's? Who knows?
Their CBA is till 2024. Also, how bout this....
Would you rather have Endeavor rates now but be forced to accept:
Junior Manning
NYC Co-basing
A reduction to 4 hours min day
A 30% increase in insurance premiums
Zero dollars HSA company contribution
An average line award of 76 hours (vs 87 at RAH) while averaging the same days off (14)

Truly objective apples to apples comparisons don't just include pay rates.



Republic pilots. Things talked about in this post are concessionary. There is absolutely no reason to accept any concession in the current airline environment from our current contract so its irrelevant. As the largest regional its time to act like it. There is no flow and no retention bonus in this TA. Tell them to come back when you have one or the other!

TalkTurkey
01-06-2018, 05:31 PM
Itís negotiations 101. The first sea is never the final deal. The only reason why we at endeavor voted yes was because for most of us, itís a good pay raise. Please donít accept the first go.

MileHi
01-06-2018, 05:32 PM
HSA contributions look to be 800 for individual/1600 family at republic, 700/1300 at Endeavor. I can't find the exact cost of Republic insurance , but the Republic contract says the company pays at least 65% of the cost of the PPO plan... same exact language in Endeavor's contract. Where are you getting these 30 and 35% higher at Endeavor figures?

Also, it is perfectly reasonable to compare Republic's TA terms to Endeavor's 900 figures. Endeavor will be 74% crj700/900 by June.

Finally, codomicile came in exchange for positive space second attempt commuting. They'll even buy a passenger off the flight if needed for you to get you to work. While most pilots aren't too happy about the codomicile, positive space commuting is a game changer. The company and union have been showing positive progress at getting improvements to transportation between the two airports.

Propsed HSA contributions are $850/$1700 respectively. Endeavor pays $411/month for the family plan vs $308 at republic while having a smaller HSA contribution. Also, 74% 900s is not 100%. Your OVERALL average schedule is 76 hours with 14 days off. Republic's is 87 with the same number of days off. I guess a give on co-basing in exchange for commuter flights could be a good tradeoff if you're a commuter. But what if you live in base? Oh by the way, regardless of the frequency used, republic still prohibits junior manning. And no pilot sits airport standby either. QOL matters.

always surfing
01-06-2018, 05:34 PM
NO!! Endeavor or better


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272922
01-06-2018, 05:40 PM
Don't you work for PSA? I really don't have much to say other than that.
2014 called and wants its self reighteous internet butt hurt back.

Casualinterest
01-06-2018, 05:52 PM
Propsed HSA contributions are $850/$1700 respectively. Endeavor pays $411/month for the family plan vs $308 at republic while having a smaller HSA contribution. Also, 74% 900s is not 100%. Your OVERALL average schedule is 76 hours with 14 days off. Republic's is 87 with the same number of days off. I guess a give on co-basing in exchange for commuter flights could be a good tradeoff if you're a commuter. But what if you live in base? Oh by the way, regardless of the frequency used, republic still prohibits junior manning. And no pilot sits airport standby either. QOL matters.Yea I'm not so sure this is accurate. Per our Union, the average credit is 83 hours. Per the company its 88. So not sure where you're getting 76 unless you're talking January 2018. Not to mention how on Earth would an average credit of 76 occur with a min of 75? Furthermore, all deadheads are awarded at 75% but paid at 100%. So you'll always credit more than award if you have one DH per month. You'd have to have 90% of the pilot group get awarded 75 hour lines to offset the other 10% bidding Max line range, and even then you'd probably still crack 76 credit average company wide. Smells fishy.

Bidding Max days off and min credit with taking 6 weeks off for FMLA I still averaged 80 hours per month credit last year.

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Crownie
01-06-2018, 06:04 PM
Propsed HSA contributions are $850/$1700 respectively. Endeavor pays $411/month for the family plan vs $308 at republic while having a smaller HSA contribution. Also, 74% 900s is not 100%. Your OVERALL average schedule is 76 hours with 14 days off. Republic's is 87 with the same number of days off. I guess a give on co-basing in exchange for commuter flights could be a good tradeoff if you're a commuter. But what if you live in base? Oh by the way, regardless of the frequency used, republic still prohibits junior manning. And no pilot sits airport standby either. QOL matters.

Their cr2 rates pay more than the proposed 175 rates, but 74% is the higher paying 900 rates which are well above our proposed rates.
Also you know as well as I do that republic can easy start airport standby with a little effort. It's allowed per the contract and the company does seen to be redoing the crew rooms. Don't make it sound like they can't implement it because they can.

I understand pay rates aren't everything and that's why this thing is being viewed negatively. . This t/a is lacking in many other areas. 401k, commuting, commuter hotels, pay rates that are a let down with no improvement to soft pay to make up for it, no improvement for reserves, being told a whole new proposal was handed to the company only to find out we settled for an extension of our current contract with a couple loa's, ect.

Geardownflaps30
01-06-2018, 06:32 PM
This union provided quote says all you need to know...

"Industry average does NOT include Endeavor or Republic rates".

ORD170
01-06-2018, 06:36 PM
This union provided quote says all you need to know...



"Industry average does NOT include Endeavor or Republic rates".



In very small print at the bottom of the page:)


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TalkTurkey
01-06-2018, 06:40 PM
2014 called and wants its self reighteous internet butt hurt back.

2004 called and wants you to come back to grammar and spelling school.

TalkTurkey
01-06-2018, 06:42 PM
Thank you Republic management for keeping pilots coming to Endeavor and giving us market share. To my airline brethren, good luck and stay strong.

chrisreedrules
01-06-2018, 06:54 PM
Don't you work for PSA? I really don't have much to say other than that.

Iím not sure what youíre getting at...

MileHi
01-06-2018, 07:04 PM
This union provided quote says all you need to know...

"Industry average does NOT include Endeavor or Republic rates".

This is a dishonest half-truth at best. The rate analysis includes two comparisons. One has everyone but Endeavor. But the other one ONLY compares Endeavor and Republic.
You don't have to like the TA. But providing misleading information does a disservice to the entire industry.
Last I checked, republic will be back at the table in less than two years (btw, this TA came 9 months BEFORE the current amendable date). Edv and Envoy amendable dates are 2024. SKW, GoJets, Mesa, and Horizon just signed new (and substantially subpar) deals. No one is scheduled to come back to the table any time soon. Who, other than republic, is left to move the goal posts? AA wholly-owneds? That's laughable.

ex9driver
01-06-2018, 07:42 PM
Propsed HSA contributions are $850/$1700 respectively. Endeavor pays $411/month for the family plan vs $308 at republic while having a smaller HSA contribution. Also, 74% 900s is not 100%. Your OVERALL average schedule is 76 hours with 14 days off. Republic's is 87 with the same number of days off. I guess a give on co-basing in exchange for commuter flights could be a good tradeoff if you're a commuter. But what if you live in base? Oh by the way, regardless of the frequency used, republic still prohibits junior manning. And no pilot sits airport standby either. QOL matters.

You are correct, there is no junior manning and that is a good thing. Reserves are abused however. Its common on the sixth day of a am reserve stretch to be assigned a trip that doesn't get back until that night. They are so short FOs that Captains are forced to play FO all the time when on reserve which is dangerous ( look up the term muscle memory) and annoying. Yes they get Captain pay. Long call reserves are assigned out of base reserve and put on short call all the time out of base. Yes QOL matters and when you are on reserve there is none. Why was their no retention bonus in this TA after corporation after corporation has been giving out bonuses due to the corporate tax rate cut? The rates, PDO and 401k increase are ok but far from great.

Paperboi
01-06-2018, 07:55 PM
Why is that laughable? I think most of us fail to see the humor in that.

This is a dishonest half-truth at best. The rate analysis includes two comparisons. One has everyone but Endeavor. But the other one ONLY compares Endeavor and Republic.
You don't have to like the TA. But providing misleading information does a disservice to the entire industry.
Last I checked, republic will be back at the table in less than two years (btw, this TA came 9 months BEFORE the current amendable date). Edv and Envoy amendable dates are 2024. SKW, GoJets, Mesa, and Horizon just signed new (and substantially subpar) deals. No one is scheduled to come back to the table any time soon. Who, other than republic, is left to move the goal posts? AA wholly-owneds? That's laughable.

inevitableneb
01-06-2018, 07:58 PM
Why is that laughable? I think most of us fail to see the humor in that.

Yeah, maybe he meant inevitable

knewyork
01-06-2018, 08:35 PM
I see a lot of yelling and angry posts. Iím wondering what the best way the pilot group can convey what would get a yes vote from them and what they currently donít like. There seems to be a lot of egos in play as well and itís hard to tell what is someoneís own agenda and what is factual. Just an observation.

Fly507
01-06-2018, 09:00 PM
Here’s how I see it...

If they don’t improve what they proposed in this TA, recruiting and retaining FOs is gonna be very hard for Republic.

Not being the highest paid, not having guaranteed interviews or flows, not offering hotel nights for commuters, not having the SAP fully implemented (yeah it’s supposed to start working for the feb bid, but who knows), upgrade time still over 3 years.
The few who decide to fly for Republic will get their 1000hrs 121 and bye bye... JetBlue, Spirit, Allegiant, Delta, Atlas, they all have taken people with no PIC time.

Seriously? This is their solution?

DirkDiggler
01-06-2018, 09:10 PM
Hope you guys hold the new bar. Endeavor or nothing. No reason to agree to anything less.

Tpinks
01-06-2018, 10:58 PM
I see a lot of yelling and angry posts. Iím wondering what the best way the pilot group can convey what would get a yes vote from them and what they currently donít like. There seems to be a lot of egos in play as well and itís hard to tell what is someoneís own agenda and what is factual. Just an observation.

It's been Endeavor or better since at least last spring/summer. Not one person on the FB page has ever been, well I would settle for half of Endeavor Rates. The NC said they were going after Endeavor and then some. They said no signing/retention bonuses, rates only. They made **** poor surveys that took two minutes to complete with no real substance to them to even find out where the membership stood with what we wanted. They said they wanted to curtail attrition.

And now they have presented this absolute POS LOA to us. I don't get how this committee could possibly think this would have a chance at passing.

Milehi is definitely on the NC

Geardownflaps30
01-07-2018, 12:08 AM
This is a dishonest half-truth at best. The rate analysis includes two comparisons. One has everyone but Endeavor. But the other one ONLY compares Endeavor and Republic.
You don't have to like the TA. But providing misleading information does a disservice to the entire industry.
Last I checked, republic will be back at the table in less than two years (btw, this TA came 9 months BEFORE the current amendable date). Edv and Envoy amendable dates are 2024. SKW, GoJets, Mesa, and Horizon just signed new (and substantially subpar) deals. No one is scheduled to come back to the table any time soon. Who, other than republic, is left to move the goal posts? AA wholly-owneds? That's laughable.

Damn. Not misleading. It's at the bottom of the union provided slides!!

What's misleading is that in 2020 RAH Capt rates only exceed 9E rates at years 16+ seniority. How many 16+ yr pilots at RAH now? Not as many as some lifers in Indy think...hint, it's way less than 50%!

chrisreedrules
01-07-2018, 03:43 AM
This is a dishonest half-truth at best. The rate analysis includes two comparisons. One has everyone but Endeavor. But the other one ONLY compares Endeavor and Republic.
You don't have to like the TA. But providing misleading information does a disservice to the entire industry.
Last I checked, republic will be back at the table in less than two years (btw, this TA came 9 months BEFORE the current amendable date). Edv and Envoy amendable dates are 2024. SKW, GoJets, Mesa, and Horizon just signed new (and substantially subpar) deals. No one is scheduled to come back to the table any time soon. Who, other than republic, is left to move the goal posts? AA wholly-owneds? That's laughable.

Other regionals are in fact already negotiating new TAs. Way ahead of their current CBA amendable dates. If RAH votes this in it will likely just be outdone in 6 months. So why not get what you deserve now? The AA WO unions have been working swiftly towards new TAs and I would expect word on that by the summer. Piedmont’s hiring and growth have sputtered, they are chomping at the bit to have PSA utilize PBS, and Envoy is already negotiating as well. All of that will cost them.

272922
01-07-2018, 04:19 AM
2004 called and wants you to come back to grammar and spelling school.
If the only complaint you can come up with about my post is that I spelled righteous wrong, well, I guess I hit the nail on the head.

TJBrass
01-07-2018, 06:13 AM
Given the militant history of the pilot group at RJET and their willingness to stand their ground, it would be a surprise if BB didn't already have a contingency offer ready to go. Don't be like the milquetoast at SKYW and jump at the first offer.

Raise the bar again.

MileHi
01-07-2018, 06:27 AM
Other regionals are in fact already negotiating new TAs. Way ahead of their current CBA amendable dates. If RAH votes this in it will likely just be outdone in 6 months. So why not get what you deserve now? The AA WO unions have been working swiftly towards new TAs and I would expect word on that by the summer. Piedmontís hiring and growth have sputtered, they are chomping at the bit to have PSA utilize PBS, and Envoy is already negotiating as well. All of that will cost them.

AA wholly owned are already negotiating? No, they're not. And by the way, Republic's CURRENT CBA still puts them on top in rates until they were recently surpassed by Endeavor and Horizon. Truthfully, republic held the top spot longer than they ever should have. Moving someone artificially down the pay scale to keep up with other carriers is not CBA negotiating, it's not even an LOA. But that's what the AA WOs are doing, playing catch up. NCs can't negotiate flows and pref interviews. That's only between MGMTs. Also, retention bonuses are only a sign of a bad CBA. Don't believe me? Then why did endeavor negotiate them away? They did it because they were missing a lot of soft pay. Smart move if you ask me. Now, if you're just talking pay rates, you're right. Republic doesn't catch (in some cases surpass) Endeavor until 1/1/2020. But there are a lot of items where one could easily argue Republics offer on the table was better (no junior man, no Co basing, lower HC premiums, better company hsa contributions, better vacation accrual, better min day pay, higher per diem, better uniform policy/allotment, and a higher monthly credit average with the same days off). We do all realize that contracts aren't just pay rates, right? Us on this board are smart enough to know that these additional cost items not only affect QOL, but add up to more money in your pocket, right? We're able to look at the totality of a deal and not just one item, right? We realize, just like endeavor pilots FINALLY did, that retention bonuses work in management's favor and are a sign of a poor CBA, right? There is not a single carrier currently in section 6. Only republic is attempting to keep up with endeavor. No one else. Hopefully others will continue to push the bar, but I'm not counting on Skywest or TSH anytime soon.

AboveAndBeyond
01-07-2018, 06:32 AM
AA wholly owned are already negotiating? No, they're not.

PSA's MEC met with management several times in the last couple weeks. On the ALPA conference call this week, the MEC announced that the MEC and NC will be meeting with management 4 days this coming week and 4 days next week.

The company has to finalize new reserve and other QOL points in the next month (as was agreed upon in the new LOA's that were published last week that increased the flow), and are preparing a new TA with pay rates and PBS.

Also, PSA's proposal to the MEC was for an increase to 8 flows a month. The MEC rejected it, and demanded 10 flows a month. PSA agreed and notified AA. AA will take all of the flows that we send them. So yes, the NC can discuss and negotiate flow.

So, yes. I can tell you that your above statement is incorrect.

CBreezy
01-07-2018, 06:37 AM
PSA's MEC met with management several times in the last couple weeks. On the ALPA conference call this week, the MEC announced that the MEC and NC will be meeting with management 4 days this coming week and 4 days next week.

The company has to finalize new reserve and other QOL points in the next month (as was agreed upon in the new LOA's that were published last week that increased the flow), and are preparing a new TA with pay rates and PBS.

Also, PSA's proposal to the MEC was for an increase to 8 flows a month. The MEC rejected it, and demanded 10 flows a month. PSA agreed and notified AA. AA will take all of the flows that we send them. So yes, the NC can discuss and negotiate flow.

So, yes. I can tell you that your above statement is incorrect.

Unions are always negotiating. The comment referred to section 6 contract negotiations. They are not the same.

AboveAndBeyond
01-07-2018, 06:44 AM
Unions are always negotiating. The comment referred to section 6 contract negotiations. They are not the same.

The results are the same.

Space Ranger
01-07-2018, 07:00 AM
AA wholly owned are already negotiating? No, they're not. And by the way, Republic's CURRENT CBA still puts them on top in rates until they were recently surpassed by Endeavor and Horizon. Truthfully, republic held the top spot longer than they ever should have. Moving someone artificially down the pay scale to keep up with other carriers is not CBA negotiating, it's not even an LOA. But that's what the AA WOs are doing, playing catch up. NCs can't negotiate flows and pref interviews. That's only between MGMTs. Also, retention bonuses are only a sign of a bad CBA. Don't believe me? Then why did endeavor negotiate them away? They did it because they were missing a lot of soft pay. Smart move if you ask me. Now, if you're just talking pay rates, you're right. Republic doesn't catch (in some cases surpass) Endeavor until 1/1/2020. But there are a lot of items where one could easily argue Republics offer on the table was better (no junior man, no Co basing, lower HC premiums, better company hsa contributions, better vacation accrual, better min day pay, higher per diem, better uniform policy/allotment, and a higher monthly credit average with the same days off). We do all realize that contracts aren't just pay rates, right? Us on this board are smart enough to know that these additional cost items not only affect QOL, but add up to more money in your pocket, right? We're able to look at the totality of a deal and not just one item, right? We realize, just like endeavor pilots FINALLY did, that retention bonuses work in management's favor and are a sign of a poor CBA, right? There is not a single carrier currently in section 6. Only republic is attempting to keep up with endeavor. No one else. Hopefully others will continue to push the bar, but I'm not counting on Skywest or TSH anytime soon.

Sheeeesh, I donít know what kind of koolaid youíre drinking but I only made it about halfway through your post before I threw my hands up in the air and said ďwhat the hell is this guy talking about?Ē My wife heard me from the other room and goes ďThatís enough internet for you today!Ē Now sheís making me go to the grocery store with her. So thank you for that. From a 9E outsider, it looks like this TA falls way short of ours. If youíre happy with not being paid what youíre worth in this industry, and are just happy to be flying an Ejet, then do us all a favor and head over to Skywest or Mesa. We should all be standing together right now.

MileHi
01-07-2018, 07:05 AM
PSA's MEC met with management several times in the last couple weeks. On the ALPA conference call this week, the MEC announced that the MEC and NC will be meeting with management 4 days this coming week and 4 days next week.

The company has to finalize new reserve and other QOL points in the next month (as was agreed upon in the new LOA's that were published last week that increased the flow), and are preparing a new TA with pay rates and PBS.

Also, PSA's proposal to the MEC was for an increase to 8 flows a month. The MEC rejected it, and demanded 10 flows a month. PSA agreed and notified AA. AA will take all of the flows that we send them. So yes, the NC can discuss and negotiate flow.

So, yes. I can tell you that your above statement is incorrect.

Wait, wait, wait! You're telling me that PSA is gonna come in and save the day by raising the bar for the entire industry??? Now, I've heard everything!

And you realize negotiating a flow RATE is different than a non WO negotiating a flow, right? It seems like your selective amnesia is partly why the industry got in this mess in the first place. When carriers take concessions for flows, it lowers the bar of the entire industry. Republic stopped the race to the bottom. Other carriers are starting to catch up. But I'd place my money on Skywest or Compass raising the bar before ever seeing an AA WO do the same.

272922
01-07-2018, 07:30 AM
Wait, wait, wait! You're telling me that PSA is gonna come in and save the day by raising the bar for the entire industry??? Now, I've heard everything!

And you realize negotiating a flow RATE is different than a non WO negotiating a flow, right? It seems like your selective amnesia is partly why the industry got in this mess in the first place. When carriers take concessions for flows, it lowers the bar of the entire industry. Republic stopped the race to the bottom. Other carriers are starting to catch up. But I'd place my money on Skywest or Compass raising the bar before ever seeing an AA WO do the same.
1. PSA has never taken a concession for a flow rate, or a flow for that matter.

2. It's really easy to tell a very small pilot group what they should do when the gun isn't pointed at your own head. 2014 was a very different environment that what we're in now.

Again, self righteous internet butt hurt and all that.

ORD170
01-07-2018, 07:31 AM
I appreciate everything the union volunteers do for the pilot group at Republic, but Iím very disappointed that they thought this TA was a good idea. Itís very obvious that the payrates for the most senior captains will far exceed Endeavor, while the FOs are far below Endeavor. How many 20 year captains have we lost to a legacy? This TA will not attract FOs to Republic! I never expected Endeavor rates, but this will not do.

MileHi
01-07-2018, 07:41 AM
1. PSA has never taken a concession for a flow rate, or a flow for that matter.

2. It's really easy to tell a very small pilot group what they should do when the gun isn't pointed at your own head. 2014 was a very different environment that what we're in now.

Again, self righteous internet butt hurt and all that.

You're right. PSA didn't take concessions for flow like their fellow AA WO carriers did. Instead, they took concessions for aircraft which were reallocated from other WOs, thus beginning a multiple years long whipsaw process that pitted one pilot group against another when the real enemy was AA management who was laughing all the way to the bank. To this day, AA is honoring the flow only to the minimum while other carriers continue the fight to repair the damage done from the whipsaw/concessionary process. AA WOs are doing the bare minimum to alleviate staffing issues that include increasing flows, increasing new hire bonuses, and adjusting Longevity pay scales. But the low top out rates and pay caps exist, while work rules remain lacking. All the while QOL issues dominate. If you want a flow, that's great. Just realize how much of your soul you're selling to get it.

Base2Final
01-07-2018, 07:49 AM
milehi and busdriver123456, I appreciate your time spent negotiating this LOA. However I'm afraid you're suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. Our previous NC fought hard for us (so much so they resigned), unfortunately this time around it sounds like you listened more to mk and our owners instead of the pilots you represent. Besides hourly rates that don't compete with endeavour, giving the company the company the ability to write a blank check to someone whose not even on property by allowing tuition forgiveness for indentured servitude will f*&k the entire industry. Brown Streak will look like a saint compared to us if we let that language in.....that is a big give for very little in return. Don't waste our dues by going on road shows. Thanks

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MileHi
01-07-2018, 07:57 AM
I appreciate everything the union volunteers do for the pilot group at Republic, but Iím very disappointed that they thought this TA was a good idea. Itís very obvious that the payrates for the most senior captains will far exceed Endeavor, while the FOs are far below Endeavor. How many 20 year captains have we lost to a legacy? This TA will not attract FOs to Republic! I never expected Endeavor rates, but this will not do.

Most captains were thrown under the bus during the last TA. Republic will continue to offer competitive bonuses to new hires. They won't be left out. Republic also increased FO rates while improving benefits for ALL pilots. If it's common knowledge the company will continually try new ways to recruit, why should republic's NC use negotiating capital for something the company is pushing for anyway? That's a waste of leverage. Want an example? Look at the captain pay caps at other carriers. Until a week ago, Endeavor's was also 12 years. I'm sure FOs could care less about kneecapping captains, but they'd be looking at it all wrong. Look, the company will continue offering new hire incentives. And with increased growth, upgrade times will continue to drop. If you want to move on, great. But republic is creating an environment where seniority is honored and a place where you could spend your career should you choose to do so. I don't think other carriers could say the same. How many other threads out there have the continued theme, "I know regional life sucks, but just get your time and get out." Republic is changing that. Knowing you can make $140/hr+ at a regional is something pretty respectable, and something I hope other carriers can ascribe. Don't forget, the early opener to continue raising the bar is in less than 2 years. I know PSA is in talks now. But I doubt their rates will come anywhere near what republic is proposing.

chrisreedrules
01-07-2018, 08:19 AM
You're right. PSA didn't take concessions for flow like their fellow AA WO carriers did. Instead, they took concessions for aircraft which were reallocated from other WOs, thus beginning a multiple years long whipsaw process that pitted one pilot group against another when the real enemy was AA management who was laughing all the way to the bank. To this day, AA is honoring the flow only to the minimum while other carriers continue the fight to repair the damage done from the whipsaw/concessionary process. AA WOs are doing the bare minimum to alleviate staffing issues that include increasing flows, increasing new hire bonuses, and adjusting Longevity pay scales. But the low top out rates and pay caps exist, while work rules remain lacking. All the while QOL issues dominate. If you want a flow, that's great. Just realize how much of your soul you're selling to get it.

We also got our unrestricted SAP out of that deal. Honestly the SAP is worth a lot of money to many of us. No one else in the industry has what we have in regards to quality of life capabilities. Itís so good that Republic wanted it right? But this isnít about PSA, or the AA WOs is it?

Iím not sure why YOU kept trying to make YOUR thread about us? All weíre saying is that the AA WOs are indeed working on new contracts for increased pay and other improvements. Republic pilots should vote this down in a heartbeat. I would (and will when itís my turn at my airline) if it is not Endeavor or better DAY 1. Why should you accept anything less?

Theoden
01-07-2018, 08:25 AM
If RAH is having a hard time hiring and retaining, then there is more money to be had. Then the question is, in what form will that money come?

This TA looks like it will come in the form of money for new hires and applicants at a later date. Another way would be to have higher pay for pilots once they are working at RAH. Endeavor has a combination with the potential for $20k new hire bonuses on top of wages.

It's up to the RAH pilots which way they want to do it, though it seems to me to be a little unjust for a guy hired in 6 months to make more than a guy hired a year before him.

272922
01-07-2018, 08:26 AM
You're right. PSA didn't take concessions for flow like their fellow AA WO carriers did. Instead, they took concessions for aircraft which were reallocated from other WOs, thus beginning a multiple years long whipsaw process that pitted one pilot group against another when the real enemy was AA management who was laughing all the way to the bank.
Yeah, those 54 900s that came straight from the factory actually came from another WO. Totally forgot about that.

As for the Envoy 700s, first Envoy gave up their rights to them (they used to be owned by Envoy, now they're owned by AA) to create the Protected Pilots, then they took a deal for 40 175s plus 90 options.

Lets see here, do I want 47 clapped out and bent 700s, or 40, or potentially 130 brand new whiz bang auto throttled Brazilian Wonder Jets?

Hold on, I have to think about this for a while......

To this day, AA is honoring the flow only to the minimum while other carriers continue the fight to repair the damage done from the whipsaw/concessionary process.
First, if you were AA, what incentive do you have to flow more than the minimum? Try none. Someone has to fly the RJs.....

AA WOs are doing the bare minimum to alleviate staffing issues that include increasing flows, increasing new hire bonuses, and adjusting Longevity pay scales.
Takes two to tango my friend. If management choses to sit on their hands because they feel they don't need changes to compete in the market, well, not much a labor union can do about that. How long were the negotiations for your 2015 CBA? That was all Teamsters fault, right?

Yeah, thought so.

But the low top out rates and pay caps exist, while work rules remain lacking. All the while QOL issues dominate.
With regard to QOL, welcome to the regionals. The AA WOs are unique in that we've got a guaranteed move up date at some point out in the future, and I have to laugh at some of my coworkers who get their panties in a wad about upgrading so we can continue to grow the fleet, so they can gain more seniority and we have the pilots to continue to grow the airline and gain them more seniority, among other things.

If you want a flow, that's great. Just realize how much of your soul you're selling to get it.
Doing some basic math, we're going to flow our last 2013 hire by the end of this year roughly, which means that everyone who voted in these dastardly concessions will have had the opportunity to be at Mainline already.

inevitableneb
01-07-2018, 08:34 AM
PSA's MEC met with management several times in the last couple weeks. On the ALPA conference call this week, the MEC announced that the MEC and NC will be meeting with management 4 days this coming week and 4 days next week.

The company has to finalize new reserve and other QOL points in the next month (as was agreed upon in the new LOA's that were published last week that increased the flow), and are preparing a new TA with pay rates and PBS.

Also, PSA's proposal to the MEC was for an increase to 8 flows a month. The MEC rejected it, and demanded 10 flows a month. PSA agreed and notified AA. AA will take all of the flows that we send them. So yes, the NC can discuss and negotiate flow.

So, yes. I can tell you that your above statement is incorrect.

Wow! That's impressive. Would you be able to keep SAP with the PBS? Which PBS are they wanting to get? Has hiring slowed for PSA since the Endeavor rates?

ORD170
01-07-2018, 08:36 AM
Most captains were thrown under the bus during the last TA. Republic will continue to offer competitive bonuses to new hires. They won't be left out. Republic also increased FO rates while improving benefits for ALL pilots. If it's common knowledge the company will continually try new ways to recruit, why should republic's NC use negotiating capital for something the company is pushing for anyway? That's a waste of leverage. Want an example? Look at the captain pay caps at other carriers. Until a week ago, Endeavor's was also 12 years. I'm sure FOs could care less about kneecapping captains, but they'd be looking at it all wrong. Look, the company will continue offering new hire incentives. And with increased growth, upgrade times will continue to drop. If you want to move on, great. But republic is creating an environment where seniority is honored and a place where you could spend your career should you choose to do so. I don't think other carriers could say the same. How many other threads out there have the continued theme, "I know regional life sucks, but just get your time and get out." Republic is changing that. Knowing you can make $140/hr+ at a regional is something pretty respectable, and something I hope other carriers can ascribe. Don't forget, the early opener to continue raising the bar is in less than 2 years. I know PSA is in talks now. But I doubt their rates will come anywhere near what republic is proposing.



So you support the company offering bonuses to new hires? Also with the legacy hiring over the next 10 years, who is going to stay at any regional? Within 3 years at any legacy or southwest you beat those numbers. BTW the captains at Republic had some of the highest industry pay-rates during much of the 2003 CBA, while the FOs suffered with well below industry average pay-rates. Since we have no flow, Republic will have to increase pay and benefits above AA WO. Sorry but this TA will fail, and the percentages will not look good for the local.


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MileHi
01-07-2018, 08:45 AM
[QUOTE=ORD170;2497617]So you support the company offering bonuses to new hires? Also with the legacy hiring over the next 10 years, who is going to stay at any regional? Within 3 years at any legacy or southwest you beat those numbers. BTW the captains at Republic had some of the highest industry pay-rates during much of the 2003 CBA, while the FOs suffered with well below industry average pay-rates. Since we have no flow, Republic will have to increase pay and benefits above AA WO. Sorry but this TA will fail, and the percentages will not look good for the local.




The current republic CBA has better rates than the AA WOs. Don't you want republic to keep raising the bar? The FO rates from 2015 put them above inflation from 2003. The new rates do the same for captains while the pay percentage increases for FOs are nearly the same.

ORD170
01-07-2018, 09:16 AM
[QUOTE=ORD170;2497617]So you support the company offering bonuses to new hires? Also with the legacy hiring over the next 10 years, who is going to stay at any regional? Within 3 years at any legacy or southwest you beat those numbers. BTW the captains at Republic had some of the highest industry pay-rates during much of the 2003 CBA, while the FOs suffered with well below industry average pay-rates. Since we have no flow, Republic will have to increase pay and benefits above AA WO. Sorry but this TA will fail, and the percentages will not look good for the local.









The current republic CBA has better rates than the AA WOs. Don't you want republic to keep raising the bar? The FO rates from 2015 put them above inflation from 2003. The new rates do the same for captains while the pay percentage increases for FOs are nearly the same.



I knew Republic would not get 9E rates, but they need to do better then this offer. Also I think many of us are concerned about why the local is pushing this so hard.


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TheWeatherman
01-07-2018, 09:22 AM
So you support the company offering bonuses to new hires? Also with the legacy hiring over the next 10 years, who is going to stay at any regional? Within 3 years at any legacy or southwest you beat those numbers. BTW the captains at Republic had some of the highest industry pay-rates during much of the 2003 CBA, while the FOs suffered with well below industry average pay-rates. Since we have no flow, Republic will have to increase pay and benefits above AA WO. Sorry but this TA will fail, and the percentages will not look good for the local.


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Did not know that. I guess I shouldn't feel so bad then that the Captains got stiffed on the last agreement.

Geardownflaps30
01-07-2018, 09:25 AM
I appreciate everything the union volunteers do for the pilot group at Republic, but Iím very disappointed that they thought this TA was a good idea. Itís very obvious that the payrates for the most senior captains will far exceed Endeavor, while the FOs are far below Endeavor. How many 20 year captains have we lost to a legacy? This TA will not attract FOs to Republic! I never expected Endeavor rates, but this will not do.

Agree with this.

Geardownflaps30
01-07-2018, 09:26 AM
[QUOTE=MileHi;2497620]



I knew Republic would not get 9E rates, but they need to do better then this offer. Also I think many of us are concerned about why the local is pushing this so hard.


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Yes. Many of us are wondering this. Many.

Dorp
01-07-2018, 09:34 AM
For some additional clarity, our codomicile comes with stipulations meant for easing QOL concerns. Weíll be able to bid for a schedule out of our base of choice, the company must end a trip in the base it starts in, and if we end a segment out of base then ground transport will be provided. I donít say that to praise codomicile but to highlight the fact that IF codomicile is something yíall need to give up (as MileHi makes it sound) to get our rates yíall should be able to negotiate some terms to ease QOL with it. Good luck guys, if not this TA I hope you get something stellar in return.

Squak1200
01-07-2018, 10:12 AM
I have no idea where you guys are getting the notion that 9E is junior manning pilots. That is not true, at all.

BeastieBoy
01-07-2018, 10:26 AM
In summary of the TA:

dd1AT37iHX8

MileHi
01-07-2018, 10:53 AM
I have no idea where you guys are getting the notion that 9E is junior manning pilots. That is not true, at all.

Endeavor pilots can be junior assigned up to 2 times per month and 8 times per year. They also regularly perform airport ready reserve. Endeavor Co basing makes it challenging for commuters requiring a crash pad. Also, min days off for EDV lineholders is 11. EDV has no trip and duty rigs. Throw in a lower per diem with a lower min day pay credit. This is in addition to 30% lower Healthcare premiums at republic with higher company HSA contributions. These are several areas that not only affect the pilot's pocketbook but also their QOL. I would hope in this day and age, pilots realize that other factors weigh on a pilot's W-2 and QOL and not just pay rates. If you don't believe me, how bout this. Suggest to Republic pilots that they should give up all gains in all the areas their contact is superior to EDV including the soft pay they fought so hard for. In exchange, they get Endeavor rates immediately. Keep in mind though, that their offer currently on the table already does that for captains at year 16+ and for all the other captains in less than 2 years. I understand the temptation, but most pilots are smart enough these days to look beyond just the page with pay rates.

TurbineTime
01-07-2018, 11:04 AM
[QUOTE=MileHi;2497620]



I knew Republic would not get 9E rates, but they need to do better then this offer. Also I think many of us are concerned about why the local is pushing this so hard.


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Mergers and Acquisitions. The union is hinting at this hard on FB. Adding the MRJ 170 to group 2 aircraft and streamlining the process to integrate certificates leads me to believe RAH management is planning on going shopping again...

CRJ All Day
01-07-2018, 11:09 AM
Endeavor pilots can be junior assigned up to 2 times per month and 8 times per year. They also regularly perform airport ready reserve. Endeavor Co basing makes it challenging for commuters requiring a crash pad. Also, min days off for EDV lineholders is 11. EDV has no trip and duty rigs. Throw in a lower per diem with a lower min day pay credit. This is in addition to 30% lower Healthcare premiums at republic with higher company HSA contributions. These are several areas that not only affect the pilot's pocketbook but also their QOL. I would hope in this day and age, pilots realize that other factors weigh on a pilot's W-2 and QOL and not just pay rates. If you don't believe me, how bout this. Suggest to Republic pilots that they should give up all gains in all the areas their contact is superior to EDV including the soft pay they fought so hard for. In exchange, they get Endeavor rates immediately. Keep in mind though, that their offer currently on the table already does that for captains at year 16+ and for all the other captains in less than 2 years. I understand the temptation, but most pilots are smart enough these days to look beyond just the page with pay rates.
If you are a lineholder you won't get 11 days off unless you bid for it. Least I have had is 14 and usually 16-19 off is normal. And I have been here over a year and a half and was junior manned once at 200%.

DirkDiggler
01-07-2018, 11:10 AM
This is the beauty of free market economics. Only you guys can set the value of your labor.

IATA forecasts global industry net profit to rise to $38.4 billion in 2018. (https://thepointsguy.com/2017/12/airline-profits-record-38-billion-2018/)

It's up to you guys to keep the bar held high. They can afford to pay up.

MileHi
01-07-2018, 11:12 AM
[QUOTE=ORD170;2497637]

Mergers and Acquisitions. The union is hinting at this hard on FB. Adding the MRJ 170 to group 2 aircraft and streamlining the process to integrate certificates leads me to believe RAH management is planning on going shopping again...


It's been long believed that regional consolidation is imminent. This will obviously be happening amongst the NON-wholly owneds. Assuming this starts happening soon, the airlines with the best operational reliability will be the kingmakers. It would be best for everyone if those airlines also had the best pilot contracts. Consolidation will put a pause in the near/mid-term for contract improvements. The last any of us need is more Mesas in this world.

MileHi
01-07-2018, 11:18 AM
If you are a lineholder you won't get 11 days off unless you bid for it. Least I have had is 14 and usually 16-19 off is normal. And I have been here over a year and a half and was junior manned once at 200%.

Sounds like you Endeavor guys need to get your stories straight. First a guy says there's no junior manning, then you prove him wrong. I stated 11 days off is the contractual minimum for endeavor lineholders vs 12 at republic. This is another fact you confirmed. Also, the AVERAGE line credit at Endeavor is 76 hours with 14 off vs 87 hours at republic. These are factual averages. YMMV. Junior manning is irrelevant when your family life suffers.

ORD170
01-07-2018, 11:31 AM
[QUOTE=TurbineTime;2497701]





It's been long believed that regional consolidation is imminent. This will obviously be happening amongst the NON-wholly owneds. Assuming this starts happening soon, the airlines with the best operational reliability will be the kingmakers. It would be best for everyone if those airlines also had the best pilot contracts. Consolidation will put a pause in the near/mid-term for contract improvements. The last any of us need is more Mesas in this world.


Please stop spreading fear! That may work with some of the news guys, but most of the pilot group is united. Very sad when your elected union sounds like management! This sounds like the mythical McKean facts.


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ORD170
01-07-2018, 11:36 AM
Sounds like you Endeavor guys need to get your stories straight. First a guy says there's no junior manning, then you prove him wrong. I stated 11 days off is the contractual minimum for endeavor lineholders vs 12 at republic. This is another fact you confirmed. Also, the AVERAGE line credit at Endeavor is 76 hours with 14 off vs 87 hours at republic. These are factual averages. YMMV. Junior manning is irrelevant when your family life suffers.



Maybe you can find out what hotels 9E uses? At Republic we see a lot of La Quinta and choice hotels. Hotels have decreased in quality since the last contract. How does this new TA impact the hotels?


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DirkDiggler
01-07-2018, 11:37 AM
It looks like you guys have a few management people on your forums trying to sell your TA hard. MileHi especially.

Unless somebody does a side by side costing of Republic's TA and Endeavor's CBA, which takes about a week to do, it's all hearsay and conjecture.

Squak1200
01-07-2018, 11:41 AM
Endeavor pilots can be junior assigned up to 2 times per month and 8 times per year. They also regularly perform airport ready reserve. Endeavor Co basing makes it challenging for commuters requiring a crash pad. Also, min days off for EDV lineholders is 11. EDV has no trip and duty rigs. Throw in a lower per diem with a lower min day pay credit. This is in addition to 30% lower Healthcare premiums at republic with higher company HSA contributions. These are several areas that not only affect the pilot's pocketbook but also their QOL. I would hope in this day and age, pilots realize that other factors weigh on a pilot's W-2 and QOL and not just pay rates. If you don't believe me, how bout this. Suggest to Republic pilots that they should give up all gains in all the areas their contact is superior to EDV including the soft pay they fought so hard for. In exchange, they get Endeavor rates immediately. Keep in mind though, that their offer currently on the table already does that for captains at year 16+ and for all the other captains in less than 2 years. I understand the temptation, but most pilots are smart enough these days to look beyond just the page with pay rates.

I dont even know where to start. But you know what, go ahead and vote this in. Good luck to you all !

Base2Final
01-07-2018, 11:47 AM
It looks like you guys have a few management people on your forums trying to sell your TA hard. MileHi especially.

Unless somebody does a side by side costing of Republic's TA and Endeavor's CBA, which takes about a week to do, it's all hearsay and conjecture.Unfortunately I'm afraid they are the NC guys. They know something in regards to a merger/acquisition/IPO but are not willing to tell us. Whether it's a scare tactic or not I don't know. Busdrivers very first post was blasting rah now he supports this Loa. Very odd tactic, just tell us what's behind the curtain. Who are we buying or whose buying us. Why can't the company afford to pay endeavour rates?

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ORD170
01-07-2018, 12:33 PM
Unfortunately I'm afraid they are the NC guys. They know something in regards to a merger/acquisition/IPO but are not willing to tell us. Whether it's a scare tactic or not I don't know. Busdrivers very first post was blasting rah now he supports this Loa. Very odd tactic, just tell us what's behind the curtain. Who are we buying or whose buying us. Why can't the company afford to pay endeavour rates?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Agreed!

Also very odd that management is being so quite. Something smells bad with this TA, and the union knows whatís up. They need to speak up!

seattlepilot
01-07-2018, 01:16 PM
[QUOTE=MileHi;2497620]


Also I think many of us are concerned about why the local is pushing this so hard.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Could it be because a company parrot who was pushing for LBFO last time around was appointed into the NC ? Could it be because another pilot who lived at the HQ by doing interviews while we were in contract negotations is in the NC ?

You put management friendly people in the NC , you get management friendly TA.



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Flyjustin
01-07-2018, 01:41 PM
AA wholly owned are already negotiating? No, they're not. And by the way, Republic's CURRENT CBA still puts them on top in rates until they were recently surpassed by Endeavor and Horizon. Truthfully, republic held the top spot longer than they ever should have. Moving someone artificially down the pay scale to keep up with other carriers is not CBA negotiating, it's not even an LOA. But that's what the AA WOs are doing, playing catch up. NCs can't negotiate flows and pref interviews. That's only between MGMTs. Also, retention bonuses are only a sign of a bad CBA. Don't believe me? Then why did endeavor negotiate them away? They did it because they were missing a lot of soft pay. Smart move if you ask me. Now, if you're just talking pay rates, you're right. Republic doesn't catch (in some cases surpass) Endeavor until 1/1/2020. But there are a lot of items where one could easily argue Republics offer on the table was better (no junior man, no Co basing, lower HC premiums, better company hsa contributions, better vacation accrual, better min day pay, higher per diem, better uniform policy/allotment, and a higher monthly credit average with the same days off). We do all realize that contracts aren't just pay rates, right? Us on this board are smart enough to know that these additional cost items not only affect QOL, but add up to more money in your pocket, right? We're able to look at the totality of a deal and not just one item, right? We realize, just like endeavor pilots FINALLY did, that retention bonuses work in management's favor and are a sign of a poor CBA, right? There is not a single carrier currently in section 6. Only republic is attempting to keep up with endeavor. No one else. Hopefully others will continue to push the bar, but I'm not counting on Skywest or TSH anytime soon.

Piedmont is in negotiations started this month.

ORD170
01-07-2018, 01:52 PM
[QUOTE=ORD170;2497637]

Could it be because a company parrot who was pushing for LBFO last time around was appointed into the NC ? Could it be because another pilot who lived at the HQ by doing interviews while we were in contract negotations is in the NC ?

You put management friendly people in the NC , you get management friendly TA.

Yes thatís probably it! Apparently they were the only volunteers, but who knows. It will get voted down, and when the attrition picks up this spring, it will be a mess.

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Paperboi
01-07-2018, 02:12 PM
Sounds like somebody is salty they didn't get hired by PSA.

Wait, wait, wait! You're telling me that PSA is gonna come in and save the day by raising the bar for the entire industry??? Now, I've heard everything!

And you realize negotiating a flow RATE is different than a non WO negotiating a flow, right? It seems like your selective amnesia is partly why the industry got in this mess in the first place. When carriers take concessions for flows, it lowers the bar of the entire industry. Republic stopped the race to the bottom. Other carriers are starting to catch up. But I'd place my money on Skywest or Compass raising the bar before ever seeing an AA WO do the same.

ex9driver
01-07-2018, 02:41 PM
[QUOTE=ORD170;2497637]

Could it be because a company parrot who was pushing for LBFO last time around was appointed into the NC ? Could it be because another pilot who lived at the HQ by doing interviews while we were in contract negotations is in the NC ?

You put management friendly people in the NC , you get management friendly TA.



Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

BINGO! And of course very senior as well. Proceed to the nearest customer service desk to receive your prize

sargeanb
01-07-2018, 02:49 PM
It's a no from ^^^^this 10+ year capt. They should've known...the Endeavor rates should have been the starting point, right off the bat.

CRJ All Day
01-07-2018, 03:49 PM
Sounds like you Endeavor guys need to get your stories straight. First a guy says there's no junior manning, then you prove him wrong. I stated 11 days off is the contractual minimum for endeavor lineholders vs 12 at republic. This is another fact you confirmed. Also, the AVERAGE line credit at Endeavor is 76 hours with 14 off vs 87 hours at republic. These are factual averages. YMMV. Junior manning is irrelevant when your family life suffers.
I was on a picked up trip before a few days of reserve. They switched my schedule around since they thought I was on reserve and got delayed till the next day. I am the only person that I know that has been jr manned since I started and it worked out in my favor since I got 10hrs extra pay and had a night in a hotel instead of the crashpad. Really didn't feel like explaining that especially since you are clearly management.

wiggy15
01-07-2018, 05:56 PM
I was on a picked up trip before a few days of reserve. They switched my schedule around since they thought I was on reserve and got delayed till the next day. I am the only person that I know that has been jr manned since I started and it worked out in my favor since I got 10hrs extra pay and had a night in a hotel instead of the crashpad. Really didn't feel like explaining that especially since you are clearly management.

Word. 2 years at 9E, no Junior Manning. Never heard of anyone getting it either. And his line values are way off. Clearly management scare tactics. Our QOL is much higher than the minimum contract. I guess it's a cultural thing that our company doesn't skirt along the minimum line and grey areas of our contract.

Casualinterest
01-07-2018, 06:30 PM
Endeavor pilots can be junior assigned up to 2 times per month and 8 times per year. They also regularly perform airport ready reserve. Endeavor Co basing makes it challenging for commuters requiring a crash pad. Also, min days off for EDV lineholders is 11. EDV has no trip and duty rigs. Throw in a lower per diem with a lower min day pay credit. This is in addition to 30% lower Healthcare premiums at republic with higher company HSA contributions. These are several areas that not only affect the pilot's pocketbook but also their QOL. I would hope in this day and age, pilots realize that other factors weigh on a pilot's W-2 and QOL and not just pay rates. If you don't believe me, how bout this. Suggest to Republic pilots that they should give up all gains in all the areas their contact is superior to EDV including the soft pay they fought so hard for. In exchange, they get Endeavor rates immediately. Keep in mind though, that their offer currently on the table already does that for captains at year 16+ and for all the other captains in less than 2 years. I understand the temptation, but most pilots are smart enough these days to look beyond just the page with pay rates.Fwiw, I've never been JM. I don't know anyone who has been JM in the last year. I've never even heard of someone getting JM in the two years I've been at 9E. Please don't make it sound like you know us and what it's like to work for us. I've also never once got less than 15 days off since I've been here. Looking through the bid pack, I'm having a hard time finding people who only get 11 days off that didn't want it. Co basing isn't challenging at all for commuters needing a crash pad since the company pays for a free shuttle that runs between the airports and makes a stop in kew. That's over 100k per year they spend to run that daily shuttle for us. And very soon they will convert it into a corporate Lyft acct like the Delta FA's have. As was said, you can bid to start in whatever base you like and you have to finish in that base.

In exchange we got positive space to work. Better reserve rules, long call, higher min day pay for reserves. And a bunc,h more.

One thing you did get right, we do have Ready reserve, and it sucks. Nail on the head with that.

And you're also right that we don't have trip or duty rigs. But tbh, we don't need them. Our trips are built pretty well and we have lots of diversity. Btw, not so secret secret.... Our 5 day trips are trip rigged to 5 hours of credit. That makes a 5 day worth 25 min.

And yea, his averages are insanely off. Average awarded is much higher. It doesn't take much mathematics to see that it would be impossible to have a 76 hour awarded line average with a 75 hour guarantee. You would need 1000 people getting awarded min to offset 100 guys getting high credit lines.

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TheWeatherman
01-07-2018, 07:28 PM
How come I have a feeling that Endevor's recruiting department has been spamming Republic's threads for the past few months?

seattlepilot
01-07-2018, 08:12 PM
Don't make the mistake of signing in a CBA of expansion times, get the language of recession times now. Just because Endeavor doesn't use JM, doesn't mean they won't use it when the time comes. Get it in writing.

Just because rah doesn't use ready reserve, doesn't mean it won't come to you. Get it in writing.

People of 2003 rah CBA or PSA people with the concessionary CBA agreed on 4 year pay rates because everyone was upgrading less than that. We know how well that worked for fos locked on Club 36.62.

I like some of the improvements on this TA , it is not at a level to attract and retain pilots.

If people with 17 year seniority are filling up right seat, that means there is something wrong with the hiring at RAH.

Geardownflaps30
01-07-2018, 09:11 PM
[QUOTE=ORD170;2497637]

Could it be because a company parrot who was pushing for LBFO last time around was appointed into the NC ? Could it be because another pilot who lived at the HQ by doing interviews while we were in contract negotations is in the NC ?

You put management friendly people in the NC , you get management friendly TA.



Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Yup. That could be it!!

Dorp
01-08-2018, 03:06 AM
How come I have a feeling that Endevor's recruiting department has been spamming Republic's threads for the past few months?

We could say the same about MileHi when it comes to his discussion of our operation. Weíre just defending ourselves and clearing the intentionally muddied waters. Itís obvious the drawbacks of our contract are being used as a punching bag to sell this TA, much like the ďitís just a temporary bonus, they can take it away at any timeĒ argument was used by OO management to sell their TA.

Casualinterest
01-08-2018, 03:06 AM
How come I have a feeling that Endevor's recruiting department has been spamming Republic's threads for the past few months?Nope. Me personally, I've got friends at republic and want you guys to get a good deal. And I try not to post on other company's boards unless I see someone telling tales about us then I try and step in to correct the nonsense. You guys have some great provisions in your contract that we don't have, but if you want more you should get it.

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TheWeatherman
01-08-2018, 06:09 AM
We could say the same about MileHi when it comes to his discussion of our operation. We’re just defending ourselves and clearing the intentionally muddied waters. It’s obvious the drawbacks of our contract are being used as a punching bag to sell this TA, much like the “it’s just a temporary bonus, they can take it away at any time” argument was used by OO management to sell their TA.
No, we know MileHi is involved with the negotiations somehow and has personal interest in the TA being signed. Just a lot of Endeavor folks over here the last few months, even before this talk of a new contract. You would think the place is better to work for than a mainline by all you posters. Smells fishy if you ask me.

ORD170
01-08-2018, 07:11 AM
How come I have a feeling that Endevor's recruiting department has been spamming Republic's threads for the past few months?

Maybe. Please donít make any decisions about this TA from info you receive on this forum. Talk to other pilots on the line, and look at the TA itself. Unlimited new hire bonuses are the biggest danger to your career at Republic. Nothing to prevent Republic from giving scholarships out to HS students, and having them sign a 10 year contract. Donít let fear make the decision for you.

Ihatepilots
01-08-2018, 07:39 AM
I never thought Iíd join a forum but this is pure comedy how this is a urinating (censorship) match between endeavor and rah forum nerds... Iím sure 99% of the people here can be spotted at overnight bars/restaurants because all they talk about is work... just vote how youíre gonna vote and shut up about it... stop trying to convince people to vote the same as you or act like youíre prophets that know whatís gonna happen to the industry because of a stupid TA

TheWeatherman
01-08-2018, 07:47 AM
I never thought Iíd join a forum but this is pure comedy how this is a urinating (censorship) match between endeavor and rah forum nerds... Iím sure 99% of the people here can be spotted at overnight bars/restaurants because all they talk about is work... just vote how youíre gonna vote and shut up about it... stop trying to convince people to vote the same as you or act like youíre prophets that know whatís gonna happen to the industry because of a stupid TA
yo what up stan!

Ihatepilots
01-08-2018, 08:00 AM
yo what up stan!

Whoís Stan

TheWeatherman
01-08-2018, 08:06 AM
Whoís Stan
great second post

wink wink

4myfamily
01-08-2018, 08:59 AM
When does the voting open and close for your TA? As I read about 9e TA online and then talked to the union reps and actually read the TA, I realized there is a lot of ďfake newsĒ on FB and APC. Get educated and vote for yourself. Good luck to all my regional brethren in raising this industry!

MKUltra
01-08-2018, 11:23 AM
I wonder how much is in the coffers for republic to give to the pilot group.

I'm sure the NC committee was shown the books and profit analysis. With the the majors pulling the strings, new flying contracts would have to be renegotiated probably in order too get higher than endeavor rates. Right now.. the big three agreeing to anymore would be less likely than..... having Jesus as SLF. Once flying gets impacted is the only way they will react... this summer is going to be nuts..

Im not at rah and hope the best for you kids as this impacts us all..

I know my company, PDT, was offered 20 dollar an hour increases across the board and our NC turned it right down.

ConnectionPilot
01-08-2018, 11:49 AM
Can anyone send me the current Republic contract or is it available somewhere? Thanks.

Longleaf7
01-08-2018, 12:28 PM
Can anyone send me the current Republic contract or is it available somewhere? Thanks.

I would like to see this also. Thanks

ORD170
01-08-2018, 01:00 PM
I wonder how much is in the coffers for republic to give to the pilot group.

I'm sure the NC committee was shown the books and profit analysis. With the the majors pulling the strings, new flying contracts would have to be renegotiated probably in order too get higher than endeavor rates. Right now.. the big three agreeing to anymore would be less likely than..... having Jesus as SLF. Once flying gets impacted is the only way they will react... this summer is going to be nuts..

Im not at rah and hope the best for you kids as this impacts us all..

I know my company, PDT, was offered 20 dollar an hour increases across the board and our NC turned it right down.

The costing data and total cost hasnít been officially released. Who knows if they will ever release it! Unofficially itís about 75-90 million over the 3 years.

The issue isnít the pay rates. They could have gotten this pushed through, if they improved other areas. Also it didnít help them saying we would get 9E rates, when they didnít even come close. Every FO Iíve flown with in the last six months expected 9E at least. Thatís because the company and some in the union were spreading those rumors.

I seriously doubt this gets more then 30%, but theyíre laying on the scare tactics, so who knows. By they I mean the union. The company hasnít said a word.

ChrisPilot1
01-09-2018, 05:29 AM
Please donít hate on new hires for getting sign on bonuses. I get it why everyone is mad but Iíve been treated by both instructors and check Airmen now on OE who were pretty spiteful about it towards me. If you were in the same situation you would also take the opportunity.

With that being said a lot of people are saying we get 17,500 or 20,000 bonuses. Not true. Some of us are still at 10,000 or 15,000. My bonus was 10,000 1,500 if which was paid during our pit full training checks. After IOE I will get probably $5000-$6000 with taxes. Bonuses arenít all rainbows and sunshine.

Green Needles
01-09-2018, 05:36 AM
Sheeeesh, I donít know what kind of koolaid youíre drinking but I only made it about halfway through your post before I threw my hands up in the air and said ďwhat the hell is this guy talking about?Ē My wife heard me from the other room and goes ďThatís enough internet for you today!Ē Now sheís making me go to the grocery store with her. So thank you for that. From a 9E outsider, it looks like this TA falls way short of ours. If youíre happy with not being paid what youíre worth in this industry, and are just happy to be flying an Ejet, then do us all a favor and head over to Skywest or Mesa. We should all be standing together right now.

Dang, you and I actually agree on something! :p All of us regionals need to stick together and keep raising the bar. We're pulling for you Republic!

ORD170
01-09-2018, 06:30 AM
Please donít hate on new hires for getting sign on bonuses. I get it why everyone is mad but Iíve been treated by both instructors and check Airmen now on OE who were pretty spiteful about it towards me. If you were in the same situation you would also take the opportunity.



With that being said a lot of people are saying we get 17,500 or 20,000 bonuses. Not true. Some of us are still at 10,000 or 15,000. My bonus was 10,000 1,500 if which was paid during our pit full training checks. After IOE I will get probably $5000-$6000 with taxes. Bonuses arenít all rainbows and sunshine.



Donít think anyone hates on new hires getting bonuses, but we will not allow the company to have unlimited bonuses. Thatís the only leverage regional pilots have, so to give that up would be stupid! If they removed that and added some QOL issues, then this TA would probably pass. Of course they will not remove that, because every other regional allows unlimited bonuses or portable longevity. Both are a bad idea and weaken bargaining positions for regionals.


BTW first year pay with bonus is probably more than some of our captains use to make.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Outof410
01-09-2018, 07:22 AM
I wonder how much is in the coffers for republic to give to the pilot group.

I'm sure the NC committee was shown the books and profit analysis. With the the majors pulling the strings, new flying contracts would have to be renegotiated probably in order too get higher than endeavor rates. Right now.. the big three agreeing to anymore would be less likely than..... having Jesus as SLF. Once flying gets impacted is the only way they will react... this summer is going to be nuts..

Im not at rah and hope the best for you kids as this impacts us all..

I know my company, PDT, was offered 20 dollar an hour increases across the board and our NC turned it right down.

Didnt our PDT NC only start with the company today? How did we get offered that so quick and everyone know about it?

DirkDiggler
01-09-2018, 08:01 AM
Did I read that correct, that your new TA allows Republic to offer unlimited bonuses to new hires?

If so, that's dangerous territory. Definitely opening Pandora's box. Better off keeping that box closed.

ORD170
01-09-2018, 08:59 AM
Did I read that correct, that your new TA allows Republic to offer unlimited bonuses to new hires?



If so, that's dangerous territory. Definitely opening Pandora's box. Better off keeping that box closed.



The box is already open, which is not helping our cause. Itís a horrible idea for labor, which could result in pilots not even on seniority list getting compensated. They can leave that in if they pay everyone the same compensation. Very slippery slope.


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Wilson03
01-09-2018, 10:14 AM
Is the TA still not public or accessible yet to non rjet pilots? Any way to get a copy or check it out?

Thanks!

ORD170
01-09-2018, 10:29 AM
Is the TA still not public or accessible yet to non rjet pilots? Any way to get a copy or check it out?



Thanks!



All Iíve seen is the executive summary. Sounds like they will release the actual LOA before the end of this week.


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BeastieBoy
01-09-2018, 11:18 AM
Please donít hate on new hires for getting sign on bonuses. I get it why everyone is mad but Iíve been treated by both instructors and check Airmen now on OE who were pretty spiteful about it towards me. If you were in the same situation you would also take the opportunity.

With that being said a lot of people are saying we get 17,500 or 20,000 bonuses. Not true. Some of us are still at 10,000 or 15,000. My bonus was 10,000 1,500 if which was paid during our pit full training checks. After IOE I will get probably $5000-$6000 with taxes. Bonuses arenít all rainbows and sunshine.


There have been several last year that I flew with that come in bragging about it. Things like "look at my new Apple watch or Bose headset that the company gave me along with my bonus money, this place sure is great!"

So while I don't hate them for receiving it I do not appreciate them being boastful of it either as some of us have never received such a thing in our many years here.

There's not even anything that nice in the gift "catalog" you can pick from for 15 years of service!

flybywp
01-09-2018, 01:11 PM
I know my company, PDT, was offered 20 dollar an hour increases across the board and our NC turned it right down.

I've heard this rumor told in so many different forms I have a hard time believing it is true.

SpeedyVagabond
01-09-2018, 02:20 PM
I've heard this rumor told in so many different forms I have a hard time believing it is true.


As you should. Lots of tall tales on this forum.

Base2Final
01-09-2018, 02:23 PM
I know my company, PDT, was offered 20 dollar an hour increases across the board and our NC turned it right down.[/QUOTE]



That's funny, because RAH's NC was spouting the same bs!? Now they come out with this pos. Good luck at PDT, hope you do get it.

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Ni7irs
01-09-2018, 09:32 PM
Please donít hate on new hires for getting sign on bonuses. I get it why everyone is mad but Iíve been treated by both instructors and check Airmen now on OE who were pretty spiteful about it towards me. If you were in the same situation you would also take the opportunity.

With that being said a lot of people are saying we get 17,500 or 20,000 bonuses. Not true. Some of us are still at 10,000 or 15,000. My bonus was 10,000 1,500 if which was paid during our pit full training checks. After IOE I will get probably $5000-$6000 with taxes. Bonuses arenít all rainbows and sunshine.

Itís not a bonus. Itís a forgivable loan. If you leave the company in less than two years, you must pay a pro-rated amount back. So you are incentivized to stay for two years. It is a commonly used tactic to prevent jumping.

hopeless in SEA
01-09-2018, 11:58 PM
A good number of the Republic Union guys were bought and paid for 3 years ago. I thought that was common knowledge. And now the ones on the board who participated in that abomination we call our "contract" are out to do it again.

Apparently, they think it's okay to betray us, keep secrets from us, and sell us out. Again. And the guilty ones will never tell you the truth about how it went down. They at least have that in common with management. Lower than dirt under a cow patty. And smellier. Certainly not worth of our trust or representation.

There is literally nothing in any TA that can possibly be worth opening the door to unlimited new hire bonuses and tuition reimbursements. That is a door you can only open once, and it can never be closed. It's similar to watching the legacies open up the scope talks.

Imagine a future where any regional could hire and maintain FO's permanently, and you are looking at a future that has zero leverage for on-property union pilots . . . forever.

Endeavor plus 50% AND bulletproof protections on everything hiring-related. I wouldn't vote for anything less. And if you do, then you are one simple ***, and you deserve what you get.

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 12:14 AM
Negotiations 101.

There are several symptoms to Stockholm Syndrome which will vary some with the individual. However, here are 5 Common Symptoms:

1. Positive feelings by the victim toward the abuser/controller
2. Negative feelings by the victim toward family, friends, or authorities trying to rescue/support them or win their release
3. Support of the abuserís reasons and behaviors
4. Positive feelings by the abuser toward the victim
5. Supportive behaviors by the victim, at times helping the abuser

Besides a hostage situation, the following 4 Types of Situations also occur in severely controlling, abusive relationships, creating the Stockholm Syndrome responses:

1. The presence of a perceived threat to oneís physical or psychological survival and the belief that the abuser would carry out the threat
2. The presence of a perceived small kindness from the abuser to the victim
3. Isolation from perspectives other than those of the abuser
4. The perceived inability to escape the situation

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 12:31 AM
Actually, following the playbook, Stockholm Syndrome is more like Negotiations 105.

Negotiations 101 is more about asymmetric warfare. And management knows this stuff cold.

1. Know what you want, and what they want, before you even go into the room.

2. Lie about what you want, and tell them whatever it takes, when you get into the room.

3. Get them to sign away control over their hiring and job protections.

4. Replace them with cheaper people.

5. Use complexity, deceit, language, threats of harm, actual harm, and even their own hopes and dreams against them.

It's cold, calculating stuff. And pilots suck at it, because there is no flow chart or checklist.

Ihatepilots
01-10-2018, 03:46 AM
You sound like a blast to fly with 🙄

ex9driver
01-10-2018, 05:44 AM
There is literally nothing in any TA that can possibly be worth opening the door to unlimited new hire bonuses and tuition reimbursements. That is a door you can only open once, and it can never be closed. It's similar to watching the legacies open up the scope talks.

Imagine a future where any regional could hire and maintain FO's permanently, and you are looking at a future that has zero leverage for on-property union pilots . . . forever.

This and the fact this LOA if passed gives the company no incentive to improve other areas of the contract that are lacking. The number one problem at RAH is finding enough pilots and this allows them to slow CA attrition and entice new hires without addressing QOL issues. Vote NO!

CBreezy
01-10-2018, 06:38 AM
A good number of the Republic Union guys were bought and paid for 3 years ago. I thought that was common knowledge. And now the ones on the board who participated in that abomination we call our "contract" are out to do it again.

Apparently, they think it's okay to betray us, keep secrets from us, and sell us out. Again. And the guilty ones will never tell you the truth about how it went down. They at least have that in common with management. Lower than dirt under a cow patty. And smellier. Certainly not worth of our trust or representation.

There is literally nothing in any TA that can possibly be worth opening the door to unlimited new hire bonuses and tuition reimbursements. That is a door you can only open once, and it can never be closed. It's similar to watching the legacies open up the scope talks.

Imagine a future where any regional could hire and maintain FO's permanently, and you are looking at a future that has zero leverage for on-property union pilots . . . forever.

Endeavor plus 50% AND bulletproof protections on everything hiring-related. I wouldn't vote for anything less. And if you do, then you are one simple ***, and you deserve what you get.

You know, you could organize a recall and replace them with someone you trust...or just complain about it anonymously on an internet message board. One of those options will yield results.

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 06:38 AM
You sound like a blast to fly with 🙄

yeah, but you hate pilots

so I guess i'll carry the load this time (it's you, in case you wondered)

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 06:40 AM
You know, you could organize a recall and replace them with someone you trust...or just complain about it anonymously on an internet message board. One of those options will yield results.

you apparently have zero experience with herding cats

CBreezy
01-10-2018, 06:55 AM
you apparently have zero experience with herding cats

Making meaningful, rational points isn't hard to do. It's harder to do when your demands are 1) Endeavor 50% or more (by the way, lol), 2)Prevent company from hiring so we have leverage. Maybe, it's that your arguments aren't meaningful or rational and people at the 2nd highest paying regional airline don't want to see the world burn like you.

DirkDiggler
01-10-2018, 07:25 AM
There is literally nothing in any TA that can possibly be worth opening the door to unlimited new hire bonuses and tuition reimbursements. That is a door you can only open once, and it can never be closed. It's similar to watching the legacies open up the scope talks.

Imagine a future where any regional could hire and maintain FO's permanently, and you are looking at a future that has zero leverage for on-property union pilots . . . forever.

This and the fact this LOA if passed gives the company no incentive to improve other areas of the contract that are lacking. The number one problem at RAH is finding enough pilots and this allows them to slow CA attrition and entice new hires without addressing QOL issues. Vote NO!

This guy gets it. Letís hope the other 50% of your group get it too. First order of business in my opinion would be to recall all your reps who even allowed this.

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 07:27 AM
Making meaningful, rational points isn't hard to do. It's harder to do when your demands are 1) Endeavor 50% or more (by the way, lol), 2)Prevent company from hiring so we have leverage. Maybe, it's that your arguments aren't meaningful or rational and people at the 2nd highest paying regional airline don't want to see the world burn like you.

maybe it's not rational for you to worry so much about my demands. don't you have your own life?

and I don't want the world to burn, which is why I can't let you roll the red carpet for the ***holes. they're the ones who started the *******g fire way back when.

btw, it's a bit of stretch to accuse me of anonymous complaining when I have about 6 posts . . . and you have almost 4,000. you need a life.

some old news, for y'all

Airlines battle growing pilot shortage that could reach crisis levels in a few years | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/2017/12/20/airlines-battle-growing-pilot-shortage-that-could-reach-crisis-levels-in-few-years.html)

Ihatepilots
01-10-2018, 07:27 AM
Making meaningful, rational points isn't hard to do. It's harder to do when your demands are 1) Endeavor 50% or more (by the way, lol), 2)Prevent company from hiring so we have leverage. Maybe, it's that your arguments aren't meaningful or rational and people at the 2nd highest paying regional airline don't want to see the world burn like you.

Well heís also busy carrying the load this time and on his off time, he probably polishes his tin foil hat and makes sure the company isnít watching him through the iPad camera

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 07:31 AM
Well heís also busy carrying the load this time and on his off time, he probably polishes his tin foil hat and makes sure the company isnít watching him through the iPad camera

my ipad has a picture of my penis over the lens. it probably looks familiar to you.

oh crap, you know who I am!

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 07:32 AM
well, maybe i'm not the only one

there's a chance

Ihatepilots
01-10-2018, 07:34 AM
my ipad has a picture of my penis over the lens. it probably looks familiar to you.

oh crap, you know who I am!

Lmao youíre such a sad person... hey good luck in those interview preps to get out of the regionals

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 07:40 AM
Lmao youíre such a sad person... hey good luck in those interview preps to get out of the regionals

i wish you the best, too, mr. management lackey. and I have no doubt that you'll succeed. there will always be more room for management and union backstabbers to make money, money, money, money . . .

at the expense of good people

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 07:43 AM
good luck everyone.

Ihatepilots
01-10-2018, 07:49 AM
good luck everyone.

Hereís a fix to your disappointment in the industry, get out of it 👋

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 07:56 AM
Hereís a fix to your disappointment in the industry, get out of it 👋

as long as you're in the henhouse, i won't leave it unattended.

CBreezy
01-10-2018, 07:59 AM
maybe it's not rational for you to worry so much about my demands. don't you have your own life?

and I don't want the world to burn, which is why I can't let you roll the red carpet for the ***holes. they're the ones who started the *******g fire way back when.

btw, it's a bit of stretch to accuse me of anonymous complaining when I have about 6 posts . . . and you have almost 4,000. you need a life.

some old news, for y'all

Airlines battle growing pilot shortage that could reach crisis levels in a few years | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/2017/12/20/airlines-battle-growing-pilot-shortage-that-could-reach-crisis-levels-in-few-years.html)

Ramble. Ramble. Deflect. Counter-accuse. My post numbers are irrelevant nor do they correlate to complaining. Not sure how you came up with that nonsense. I do appreciate your concern for my life, but it's really not needed. I have everything I could need and more. You should worry about getting United+100% rates and unlimited PTO and less about me. Lol.

hopeless in SEA
01-10-2018, 08:09 AM
Ramble. Ramble. Deflect. Counter-accuse. My post numbers are irrelevant nor do they correlate to complaining. Not sure how you came up with that nonsense. I do appreciate your concern for my life, but it's really not needed. I have everything I could need and more. You should worry about getting United+100% rates and unlimited PTO and less about me. Lol.

hello, mr. fox

CBreezy
01-10-2018, 08:16 AM
hello, mr. fox

Mr. Fox? In the study with the candlestick?

ORD170
01-10-2018, 09:35 AM
Ramble. Ramble. Deflect. Counter-accuse. My post numbers are irrelevant nor do they correlate to complaining. Not sure how you came up with that nonsense. I do appreciate your concern for my life, but it's really not needed. I have everything I could need and more. You should worry about getting United+100% rates and unlimited PTO and less about me. Lol.

No I think most would have went along with this LOA, if the company added some QOL items and removed the concession in 3.O.
If you think Republic management is doing this to be nice, youíre in for a very big surprise. If youíre a FO at Republic now, especially junior FO, you should be very scared if this passes. Is it rational to increase captains rates more then FO rates in the current hiring environment? Why all the added language for mergers and acquisitions? Should you give BB the ability to pay new hire an extra 50k per year without matching for pilots on seniority list?
Most never expected 9E rates, but the current offer will not do.

If it passes (which I seriously doubt), then I suspect new FOs will be hired this summer with a extra 10k per year. Enjoy......

stringandrudder
01-10-2018, 09:53 AM
No I think most would have went along with this LOA, if the company added some QOL items and removed the concession in 3.O.
If you think Republic management is doing this to be nice, youíre in for a very big surprise. If youíre a FO at Republic now, especially junior FO, you should be very scared if this passes. Is it rational to increase captains rates more then FO rates in the current hiring environment? Why all the added language for mergers and acquisitions? Should you give BB the ability to pay new hire an extra 50k per year without matching for pilots on seniority list?
Most never expected 9E rates, but the current offer will not do.

If it passes (which I seriously doubt), then I suspect new FOs will be hired this summer with a extra 10k per year. Enjoy......

This is assuming every junior FO would want to stay if it passes! I know plenty on the fence even before this let down of a TA was proposed. If this passes, I expect an exodus. Iíd argue most DID expect Endeavor rates considering thatís what our union told us! If anyone argues otherwise, theyíre delusional.

ORD170
01-10-2018, 10:04 AM
This is assuming every junior FO would want to stay if it passes! I know plenty on the fence even before this let down of a TA was proposed. If this passes, I expect an exodus. Iíd argue most DID expect Endeavor rates considering thatís what our union told us! If anyone argues otherwise, theyíre delusional.

I know BB basically said we would exceed 9E, because I was there, and Iíve seen the payday updates, which also said the same thing. For those of use that have been through this before, we know BB lies. We also know the teamsters have a history of over promising, and under delivering. I have no idea why they increased the senior captains pay so much, but thatís another reason it would be hard to get 9E rates.

Iím hopeful this gets voted down, but I think it will be close. Honesty if you want Endeavor rates, then you should go to Endeavor. If this passes they will have no issues getting FOs, because their pay will exceed 9E.

4V14T0R
01-10-2018, 12:33 PM
No I think most would have went along with this LOA, if the company added some QOL items and removed the concession in 3.O.

If you think Republic management is doing this to be nice, youíre in for a very big surprise. If youíre a FO at Republic now, especially junior FO, you should be very scared if this passes. Is it rational to increase captains rates more then FO rates in the current hiring environment? Why all the added language for mergers and acquisitions? Should you give BB the ability to pay new hire an extra 50k per year without matching for pilots on seniority list?

Most never expected 9E rates, but the current offer will not do.



If it passes (which I seriously doubt), then I suspect new FOs will be hired this summer with a extra 10k per year. Enjoy......



Why would they give a $50K signing bonus when no one else is? That makes no sense. There have only ever been incremental increase in the bonus. The current CBA allows for any bonus amount currently and a limit after the amendable date. Thereís a whole lot of fear mongering going on (not directly solely at you). Just doing a cursory review the FOs see a larger bump as a percentage than CAs, why should they get even more like last time. This TA was meant to benefit both ends of the seniority list not just the junior end like last time. This MAY help more people decide to stay who were on the fence, but those that always had plans to leave more than likely still have those plans but now may hold out for a legacy to call.

ďIf you think Republic Management is doing this to be nice,Ē címon man itís a negotiation. There is give and take. Itís an unrealistic and childish expectation to think that Republic management gets nothing from a negotiation. Not quite as bad as the dude above asking for EDV +50% though (*******ing stunning that someone has that high of an unrealistic expectation if that was for real). No negotiation will ever go exactly as one side wants it and if you want to wait til that day happens itíll be too late because youíll be dead.

Sure we can vote this down and wait another year and a half for a response to the rejection like how the last one happened (which was needed by the way), but by the time that comes we will be back in negotiations any way within a couple months.


Flame away....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DirkDiggler
01-10-2018, 01:16 PM
Leverage. A big component of negotiations. Even our President the big negotiator touts leverage as the most important thing. Your only leverage is staffing.

Ornstein the CEO of Mesa said it best, and I'm paraphrasing but "As long as the pilots keep coming to the door, I'm paying too much."

To give Republic carte blanche on hiring bonuses is absolutely foolish.

ex9driver
01-10-2018, 01:46 PM
1. With respect to signing bonuses, stipends and other new hire incentives, the Company has the
discretion to offer, and to increase or decrease, signing bonuses and/or incentives in its
recruitment efforts of New Hire Pilots. The Company has the discretion regarding the timing
of payments of such signing bonuses and/or incentives for New Hire FO Pilots.
2. The Company, in its discretion, may forgive or reimburse (directly or indirectly, in whole or
in part, over any duration(s) defined by the Company) any loan(s) that were taken out by
Pilots (or provided to the Pilot) to offset costs associated with any form of training, education
and/or certification of becoming qualified to be a New Hire Pilot at the Company.


Hereís the problem with this section. It sets up a separate system of dealing with new hires outside of the CBA. New hire bonuses are one thing however this allows the timing and size of bonuses to be set by the company. Whatís to prevent them from setting up a bonus paid every year for three years to new hires while FOs on the property get nothing? The companies discretion? Give me a break! They are opening a door to attract pilots totally separate from the rest of the pilots covered by the CBA. People would be open to this if it was tied to the rest of the group. The company exceeds a certain amount in bonuses to new hires than all pilots receive some compensation. If the pilot shortage is real than the union has leverage but this gives it up.

ex9driver
01-10-2018, 01:54 PM
When I refer to leverage I’m talking leverage to come back to the table to fix the many issues besides compensation that are lacking in the current CBA.

NYC Pilot
01-10-2018, 04:01 PM
Can someone post the pay rates for this new tentative agreement? Just curious to see how high the max captain rates are. First officer rates are disappointing for sure.

SpeedyVagabond
01-10-2018, 04:48 PM
he probably polishes his tin foil hat and makes sure the company isnít watching him through the iPad camera

There are some many dorks who do this.

MileHi
01-10-2018, 05:40 PM
Can someone post the pay rates for this new tentative agreement? Just curious to see how high the max captain rates are. First officer rates are disappointing for sure.

Captain rates match 9E rates as of 1/1/2020 to year 15. Year 20 tops out at $140.37/hr.

CBreezy
01-10-2018, 05:53 PM
Captain rates match 9E rates as of 1/1/2020 to year 15. Year 20 tops out at $140.37/hr.

Does it match current 9E rates or does it catch up?

MileHi
01-10-2018, 06:23 PM
Does it match current 9E rates or does it catch up?

As of 1/1/18 CA rates 18+ exceed 9E.
As of 1/1/19 CA rates 17+ exceed 9E.
As of 1/1/20 ALL CA rates match 9E except years 15+. They exceed 9E.

MKUltra
01-10-2018, 06:25 PM
Didnt our PDT NC only start with the company today? How did we get offered that so quick and everyone know about it?

It occurred before the formal start of negotiations.. in December.. apparently.. everything is rumor

sargeanb
01-10-2018, 07:38 PM
The Union just put out some sob story about the company being unable to afford Endeavor rates in 2018...no...they can. We were never really "bankrupt." Those of us who were around for the last round of negotiations remember some of the company tactics, and it's a very different situation now than it was in the mid-2000s. This is a pilot's market. At least at the regional level, we are in demand, and we know it. Industry-leading, or nothing. Period.

FlyyGuyy
01-10-2018, 08:04 PM
It occurred before the formal start of negotiations.. in December.. apparently.. everything is rumor

listen here eugoogleizer! it must be in the school for ants.

MileHi
01-10-2018, 08:09 PM
The Union just put out some sob story about the company being unable to afford Endeavor rates in 2018...no...they can. We were never really "bankrupt." Those of us who were around for the last round of negotiations remember some of the company tactics, and it's a very different situation now than it was in the mid-2000s. This is a pilot's market. At least at the regional level, we are in demand, and we know it. Industry-leading, or nothing. Period.

Just so we're clear. You're claiming the POR documents filed by the company on PRIMECLERK during chapter 11 reorganization (that shows estimated future financials) were fraudulent? That's a pretty bold statement. Feel free to call it a "sob story". That just shows your unwillingness to be objective.

DirkDiggler
01-10-2018, 09:26 PM
Just so we're clear. You're claiming the POR documents filed by the company on PRIMECLERK during chapter 11 reorganization (that shows estimated future financials) were fraudulent? That's a pretty bold statement. Feel free to call it a "sob story". That just shows your unwillingness to be objective.

Oh PLEASE, RJET was actually SOLVENT and profitable when filing for chapter 11. As a codebtor of RAH, Republic Airline Inc had assets of $2,465,906,518.85 according to form 206 which exceeded their liabilities of $1,996,602,586.46 upon filing. We all know it was a ploy to gut their contracts, mainly CPA's and start anew. Estimates don't mean anything and are not binding. It's the actual numbers that count when filing the petition and associated schedules. They could've estimated anything, 500 pilots leaving, 0 new hires, 50 parked planes etc etc.

The big 3 need to start infusing money if they cannot afford to pay market wages.

By the way, solvent debtors are highly unusual but not specifically excluded from filing chapter 11. As Congress allows for a "good-faith filing" doctrine which applies to debtors who are not insolvent.

MileHi
01-11-2018, 04:02 AM
We're going into the weeds a bit on this thread. The conversation started about the merits (or lack thereof) for republic's new LOA. If payrates are the only thing that matters to a pilot, then, well, this falls short of the current industry leader 9E. It frustratingly only puts them in second place (1st among non WOs). But if you acknowledge there is more to a contract than rates that affect, not only cost issues, but result in more money in a pilot's pocket and better QOL, then that's a different story. One could argue that the other benefits in republic's contract more than make up for the areas it lacks in pay.

Ihatepilots
01-11-2018, 04:32 AM
We're going into the weeds a bit on this thread. The conversation started about the merits (or lack thereof) for republic's new LOA. If payrates are the only thing that matters to a pilot, then, well, this falls short of the current industry leader 9E. It frustratingly only puts them in second place (1st among non WOs). But if you acknowledge there is more to a contract than rates that affect, not only cost issues, but result in more money in a pilot's pocket and better QOL, then that's a different story. One could argue that the other benefits in republic's contract more than make up for the areas it lacks in pay.

Be careful, pretty soon theyíre gonna start calling you a management lackey for not wanting to burn the place down 😩😂

ex9driver
01-11-2018, 04:41 AM
The issues with this LOA for me are not the pay rates although FOs can certainly argue they are short. We can go on and on about how we should make main line pay for mainline flying and I agree but thatís for another thread. Itís the section on allowing the company to self determine (with no restrictions) compensation for new hires outside of the CBA which takes away union leverage. Without leverage during a pilot shortage the union cannot improve reserve rules which are garbage here as well as sick pay and vacation. At Republic because of the PDO system you canít be sick and have paid vacation only one or the other. That my friend is a joke! And the fact that new hires get all this bonus money and the TA has no retention bonus for pilots on property is a slap in the face!

DirkDiggler
01-11-2018, 05:14 AM
Don't give up that leverage. I'm going to post this quote again because it's so very important.

"As long as I have applications on my desk, I'm paying my pilots too much."
- Jonathan Ornstein, CEO, Mesa Airlines

Base2Final
01-11-2018, 05:47 AM
Ok
Rah doesn't have co basing and jr manning. Rah pilots possibly credit, on AVG more a month. Rah Loa pay rates close to endeavour. All good to rah.

Endeavour pilots, does your contract allow for company to pay pilots not on property yet? And if so is there a cap to the amount the company can pay these people? The Loa put out has ZERO language to prevent rah spending tennis of thousands on hopeful new recruits that are not even supporting our business.

So, to a the rah NC members on here, this give is worse than JM and co basing. So please stop trying to sell this Loa while not divulging the big ugly truth of creating another b scale. Indentured servitude is a no go.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

TheWeatherman
01-11-2018, 06:47 AM
Be careful, pretty soon theyíre gonna start calling you a management lackey for not wanting to burn the place down 😩😂
Stan created ID Jan 2018, first and second post were in this thread. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

CBreezy
01-11-2018, 07:12 AM
Ok
Rah doesn't have co basing and jr manning. Rah pilots possibly credit, on AVG more a month. Rah Loa pay rates close to endeavour. All good to rah.

Endeavour pilots, does your contract allow for company to pay pilots not on property yet? And if so is there a cap to the amount the company can pay these people? The Loa put out has ZERO language to prevent rah spending tennis of thousands on hopeful new recruits that are not even supporting our business.

So, to a the rah NC members on here, this give is worse than JM and co basing. So please stop trying to sell this Loa while not divulging the big ugly truth of creating another b scale. Indentured servitude is a no go.

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

In all fairness, other than good faith language, your CBA doesn't apply to pilots that have not been hired yet. It only applies to pilots once they step foot on property. The RLA doesn't limit and the union has no ground to limit how much the airline pays a non-employee or any other non-pilot employee. As long as the payments are dispersed prior showing up day 1, the union can't really do anything.

ACEssXfer
01-11-2018, 07:25 AM
After IOE I will get probably $5000-$6000 with taxes. Bonuses arenít all rainbows and sunshine.

looooooooooooooool

6000 is just.....just barely under 1/3 of what I made my first year.

lol

flydiamond
01-11-2018, 07:33 AM
We're going into the weeds a bit on this thread. The conversation started about the merits (or lack thereof) for republic's new LOA. If payrates are the only thing that matters to a pilot, then, well, this falls short of the current industry leader 9E. It frustratingly only puts them in second place (1st among non WOs). But if you acknowledge there is more to a contract than rates that affect, not only cost issues, but result in more money in a pilot's pocket and better QOL, then that's a different story. One could argue that the other benefits in republic's contract more than make up for the areas it lacks in pay.

Comparing and contrasting QOL to pay rates is comparing to apples to oranges. Match or beat Endeavor pay and then match or beat Endeavor on QOL matters. That's how you obtain an industry leading contract and staff the airline. Why do you think Delta and United keep matching each other on pay? Is QOL contract language identical at those two carriers? Of course not.

Also, I am not too familiar with the Republic contract and company culture/management friendliness but you have grossly overstated QOL shortcomings at Endeavor. As I have stated here as have numerous other Endeavor pilots, we have much better than average language on scheduling, premium pay, reserve rules, etc and in my opinion a great culture. additionally, many times scheduling and management goes above and beyond the contract to keep us happy... e.g. Providing hotels and positive space travel prior to IOE, early reserve release, matching 401k catch-up contributions (that's $6000 for any pilot over 50 who wishes to participate!!). Please stop ****ting on our company to sell your lackluster contract.

ex9driver
01-11-2018, 07:49 AM
In all fairness, other than good faith language, your CBA doesn't apply to pilots that have not been hired yet. It only applies to pilots once they step foot on property. The RLA doesn't limit and the union has no ground to limit how much the airline pays a non-employee or any other non-pilot employee. As long as the payments are dispersed prior showing up day 1, the union can't really do anything.

The language change allows theĒtimingĒ of the compensation ie bonus or tuition reimbursement to be at the companyís discretion. Thatís vague and could result in compensation stretched out for new hires even after they are on property.

Ihatepilots
01-11-2018, 08:08 AM
Stan created ID Jan 2018, first and second post were in this thread. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

You creeping on me? Thatís cute. Whatís my blood type?

I joined because this bull**** on here is comical... people that ďare looking out for the industryĒ, no thanks, I look out for myself and my family only. Life isnít fair, if NHs got their tuition paid for then hey, they got in at the right time. Iíve suffered enough in this industry ďfor the good of the industryĒ and it got me jack.

You really think this union is going to come out with a new TA immediately after we vote this down? Good luck

I like to ruffle feathers and watch people lose their minds

Base2Final
01-11-2018, 08:17 AM
In all fairness, other than good faith language, your CBA doesn't apply to pilots that have not been hired yet. It only applies to pilots once they step foot on property. The RLA doesn't limit and the union has no ground to limit how much the airline pays a non-employee or any other non-pilot employee. As long as the payments are dispersed prior showing up day 1, the union can't really do anything.Then why did they put language in this Loa that will allow it? Why negotiate it? And why did our NC agree this was the biggest ask from company?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

CBreezy
01-11-2018, 08:28 AM
The language change allows theĒtimingĒ of the compensation ie bonus or tuition reimbursement to be at the companyís discretion. Thatís vague and could result in compensation stretched out for new hires even after they are on property.

I agree that it's unsat. I'm just stating a fact. It's sloppy negotiating just like several airlines a few years ago that allowed the company to raise first year rates to $x/hr at their discretion. If you want to do something to recruit, everyone else gets something. That's how you negotiate.

For whatever reason, and here is what I don't understand about pilots, they all bend over backwards complaining that this or that doesn't help recruit or retain pilots. Honestly, that isn't the union's job. If the company gets behind in recruiting they can go to the union and ask for changes to the CBA. Of course you can have a 1st year raise but it's going to cost you.

TheWeatherman
01-11-2018, 09:17 AM
You creeping on me? Thatís cute. Whatís my blood type?

I joined because this bull**** on here is comical... people that ďare looking out for the industryĒ, no thanks, I look out for myself and my family only. Life isnít fair, if NHs got their tuition paid for then hey, they got in at the right time. Iíve suffered enough in this industry ďfor the good of the industryĒ and it got me jack.

You really think this union is going to come out with a new TA immediately after we vote this down? Good luck

I like to ruffle feathers and watch people lose their minds
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiight. Just another "employee" of Republic. Just your average FO or CA. k

Ihatepilots
01-11-2018, 09:41 AM
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiight. Just another "employee" of Republic. Just your average FO or CA. k

Maybe Iím a FA or dispatcher or scheduler... maybe Iím Brian Bedford (God Bless).. the world may never know...

Hey but on the real, sorry youíre so angry at the world ☹️

TheWeatherman
01-11-2018, 10:09 AM
Maybe Iím a FA or dispatcher or scheduler... maybe Iím Brian Bedford (God Bless).. the world may never know...

Hey but on the real, sorry youíre so angry at the world ☹️
No, just can spot out frauds. You made it pretty easy Stan. This person's posts should be ignored.

Ihatepilots
01-11-2018, 10:23 AM
No, just can spot out frauds. You made it pretty easy Stan. This person's posts should be ignored.

My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, Commander of the Embraer 170Ė175, General of the Regional Airlines, loyal servant to the true airline, Delta Air Lines. Father to a Cessna 152, husband to a Lear 35. And I will have my full deadhead pay, in this airline or the next.

NYC Pilot
01-11-2018, 10:25 AM
Captain rates match 9E rates as of 1/1/2020 to year 15. Year 20 tops out at $140.37/hr.

Thanks for the info mile hi ,

This would be a great contract if only the first officer rates were matched with endeavor. The captain rates are reasonable. Is there also a 12% 401k? Overall Republic is a great place to be if one sees the entire picture.

The only thing is that endeavor and the AA wholly owned carriers offer a pathway to mainline which will attract a higher percentage of desirable candidates to them verses Republic. That will be an issue as far as recruitment is concerned. They should have just offered endeavor rates and gotten this TA passed. Then Republic management would focus on more important issues like making more money and expanding the business.

TangoIndiaMike1
01-11-2018, 12:44 PM
Why would they give a $50K signing bonus when no one else is? That makes no sense. There have only ever been incremental increase in the bonus. The current CBA allows for any bonus amount currently and a limit after the amendable date. Thereís a whole lot of fear mongering going on (not directly solely at you). Just doing a cursory review the FOs see a larger bump as a percentage than CAs, why should they get even more like last time. This TA was meant to benefit both ends of the seniority list not just the junior end like last time. This MAY help more people decide to stay who were on the fence, but those that always had plans to leave more than likely still have those plans but now may hold out for a legacy to call.

ďIf you think Republic Management is doing this to be nice,Ē címon man itís a negotiation. There is give and take. Itís an unrealistic and childish expectation to think that Republic management gets nothing from a negotiation. Not quite as bad as the dude above asking for EDV +50% though (*******ing stunning that someone has that high of an unrealistic expectation if that was for real). No negotiation will ever go exactly as one side wants it and if you want to wait til that day happens itíll be too late because youíll be dead.

Sure we can vote this down and wait another year and a half for a response to the rejection like how the last one happened (which was needed by the way), but by the time that comes we will be back in negotiations any way within a couple months.


Flame away....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




They are giving 50k bonuses. Itís just over 3 years and if you leave or upgrade you donít get it.

knewyork
01-11-2018, 01:24 PM
Itís interesting on here and on the fb group there seems to be a lot of muscle flexing going on. Whether it be legal knowledge or ďremember whenĒ concerning the last round of negotiations. Thereís a tremendous amount of egos and yelling at each other about what people did and didnít do last time. Just an observation. It all makes it confusing when people start accusing each other of being ďpaid offĒ by the company or offered a management position by saying certain things. Canít we leave personal politics out of this? Do you like the LOA or no? Unfortunately this stuff happens and it clouds the thought processes of those not involved.

Peopleís preconceived notions about the company and individuals and the conspiracy theories do nothing to better our group. I just feel like so many people are trying to be the guy who saves us from the evils at HQ and the union that perhaps some of the evils are falsely narrated.

blindfayth
01-11-2018, 02:27 PM
They are giving 50k bonuses. Itís just over 3 years and if you leave or upgrade you donít get it.

Where do you see this?

knewyork
01-11-2018, 02:47 PM
Where do you see this?

Messa

_____

4V14T0R
01-11-2018, 03:29 PM
They are giving 50k bonuses. Itís just over 3 years and if you leave or upgrade you donít get it.



Who is doing this? Certainly not Republic. If this is going on, nothing in the current CBA stops them from being able to pay that amount. Voting down this TA does not prevent them from paying that amount (except for after a year and then it is limited to 105% of an average amount). As said before, there is a lot of fearmongering and half-truths being spouted.


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4V14T0R
01-11-2018, 03:30 PM
Messa



_____



Yeah look at their pay and contract. There is a reason they do that. Itís so that JO can snatch it away at any moment.


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ORD170
01-11-2018, 04:45 PM
Try to make it to a road show. The NC member were informative and honest. I didnít like everything that was said, but it made sense. Iím out of here soon, so this LOA has very little impact on me. Iím a no, because I believe it will negatively impact the profession. Great deal for the 15 plus year guys though....

Base2Final
01-11-2018, 04:54 PM
Who is doing this? Certainly not Republic. If this is going on, nothing in the current CBA stops them from being able to pay that amount. Voting down this TA does not prevent them from paying that amount (except for after a year and then it is limited to 105% of an average amount). As said before, there is a lot of fearmongering and half-truths being spouted.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkRAH can not spread it out over 3 years on current book.

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Base2Final
01-11-2018, 04:56 PM
RAH can not spread it out over 3 years on current book. And it's an industry AVG of bonuses.

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sargeanb
01-11-2018, 06:04 PM
Comparing and contrasting QOL to pay rates is comparing to apples to oranges. Match or beat Endeavor pay and then match or beat Endeavor on QOL matters. That's how you obtain an industry leading contract and staff the airline. Why do you think Delta and United keep matching each other on pay? Is QOL contract language identical at those two carriers? Of course not.

Also, I am not too familiar with the Republic contract and company culture/management friendliness but you have grossly overstated QOL shortcomings at Endeavor. As I have stated here as have numerous other Endeavor pilots, we have much better than average language on scheduling, premium pay, reserve rules, etc and in my opinion a great culture. additionally, many times scheduling and management goes above and beyond the contract to keep us happy... e.g. Providing hotels and positive space travel prior to IOE, early reserve release, matching 401k catch-up contributions (that's $6000 for any pilot over 50 who wishes to participate!!). Please stop ****ting on our company to sell your lackluster contract.

You get it. The vast majority of us here at RAH expected at least Endeavor rates. I was pretty surprised that this TA did not get us that. As far as new hires, sure QOL and bases are important, but the main thing that will attract new hires is the pay rates. Not bonuses...base pay. Do they really think new hires will flock here with rates well under Endeavorís? The pay rates are also an important aspect in keeping old workhorses like myself here...or at least from jumping ship to a ULCC or ACMI cargo carrier. If the majors call, weíre all out of here, nothing will change that. I appreciate what the union is doing for us, but this one just isnít good enough. Weíre in a pretty good position. Our current contract isnít terrible, and the company is profitable. We can afford to hold out for better.

4V14T0R
01-11-2018, 06:37 PM
RAH can not spread it out over 3 years on current book.

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Thatís true, but the goal as stated from the outset was to be able to attract and retain not just retain. As I stated previously no negotiation will 100% go our way.


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Snowbound
01-11-2018, 08:56 PM
If Republic, and all the other regionals, would keep voting NO to these proposals that involve new hire bonuses....it would force the majors to take this flying back in house and this nonsense would end. Most of you may not remember this, but there was a time when these code-sharing regionals did not exist. There was NEVER a time when it made sense for a pilot to give up his pay to offer a bonus to someone who isnít even an employee yet.

Look further ahead than next year. THIS INDUSTRY CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE 2000 PILOTS IN ONE FELL SWOOP. Stand strong, vote NO. You will not only survive, but you will prosper.

4V14T0R
01-11-2018, 09:04 PM
If Republic, and all the other regionals, would keep voting NO to these proposals that involve new hire bonuses....it would force the majors to take this flying back in house and this nonsense would end. Most of you may not remember this, but there was a time when these code-sharing regionals did not exist. There was NEVER a time when it made sense for a pilot to give up his pay to offer a bonus to someone who isnít even an employee yet.



Look further ahead than next year. THIS INDUSTRY CANNOT AFFORD TO LOSE 2000 PILOTS IN ONE FELL SWOOP. Stand strong, vote NO. You will not only survive, but you will prosper.



Youíre right, but apparently there are provisions in our CPAs that if the airline starts to fail at meeting its metric the flying will be removed incrementally to prevent that one fell swoop. Apparently this provision was added by our codeshare partners when we went through BK. So we shrink to profitability. We need to be able to attract and retain. So anyone who says we as pilots donít need to worry about attracting new pilots doesnít realize the larger picture. Of course most of us donít want to be here longer than we have to, but if something like this does happen there will be people here that will have to deal with this and it will have a negative effect on them. So it does in fact benefit us as pilots to worry about recruitment.


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Snowbound
01-11-2018, 09:15 PM
Youíre right, but apparently there are provisions in our CPAs that if the airline starts to fail at meeting its metric the flying will be removed incrementally to prevent that one fell swoop. Apparently this provision was added by our codeshare partners when we went through BK. So we shrink to profitability. We need to be able to attract and retain. So anyone who says we as pilots donít need to worry about attracting new pilots doesnít realize the larger picture. Of course most of us donít want to be here longer than we have to, but if something like this does happen there will be people here that will have to deal with this and it will have a negative effect on them. So it does in fact benefit us as pilots to worry about recruitment.


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The Provisions in the CPA don't matter. There are not enough people interested in this career (unless they get obscene bonuses) to cover the flying that would potentially be removed. The retirements/movements would outpace new hires that could be hired by anyone to replace Republic. I call their bluff.

Snowbound
01-11-2018, 09:19 PM
Youíre right, but apparently there are provisions in our CPAs that if the airline starts to fail at meeting its metric the flying will be removed incrementally to prevent that one fell swoop. Apparently this provision was added by our codeshare partners when we went through BK. So we shrink to profitability. We need to be able to attract and retain. So anyone who says we as pilots donít need to worry about attracting new pilots doesnít realize the larger picture. Of course most of us donít want to be here longer than we have to, but if something like this does happen there will be people here that will have to deal with this and it will have a negative effect on them. So it does in fact benefit us as pilots to worry about recruitment.


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Their CPA wouldn't matter. If Republic could not fulfill their obligation there would not be enough people interested in this career (unless they got an obscene bonus) for a competitor to hire and replace the flying. Again, this is if EVERYONE voted no.

Lostboys97
01-12-2018, 06:08 AM
I would bet those provisions were put in place so RAH doesnít have a 2014/2015 cancellation apocalypse all over again. If BB wanted to shrink to profitability he would have let it happen during the bankruptcy, and not brought on more Delta planes, more UA planes, and 1 AA which was parked in RME. You can not let either side inflict fear by voting a certain way.
My opinion, you can not open that box of unlimited incentives/bonuses/reimbursements. Protect the industry! Just look at what scope relief has done.

DirkDiggler
01-12-2018, 07:26 AM
That is spot on. The only reason they are coming to you guys to begin with is because of the shortage of new hires. When new hires are plentiful they will stall negotiations for 8+ years. And it's not like that hasn't happened before.

If you give up unlimited new hire bonuses you will probably never see another TA, ever. There's no reason to. Keep the longevity down, get the crusty angry people to leave. It will keep pilot costs low.

knewyork
01-12-2018, 07:59 AM
Well now the idea is that these loan payments are for pilots on the seniority list. Not for to-be-new-hires.

Lostboys97
01-12-2018, 09:37 AM
Youíre joking right? Unless a pilot was already Ďlocked iní as an employee(which would prove intent to be employed at RAH) when they took on the loans/debt to be certificated as a pilot, there is no chance the company will reimburse a pilot already on property!

knewyork
01-12-2018, 10:12 AM
Youíre joking right? Unless a pilot was already Ďlocked iní as an employee(which would prove intent to be employed at RAH) when they took on the loans/debt to be certificated as a pilot, there is no chance the company will reimburse a pilot already on property!

Who knows, one could interpret the wording that way. It just says the company can reimburse the costs associated with becoming elligible for an FO a position to ďPilotsĒ. Which is specified in the contract as someone on the seniority list. I think there may be further explanation that as a ďPilotĒ you have to be qualified to attend indoc or some similar qualification. Iím not sure though. Someone can clarify.

ORD170
01-13-2018, 09:37 AM
As of 1/1/18 CA rates 18+ exceed 9E.

As of 1/1/19 CA rates 17+ exceed 9E.

As of 1/1/20 ALL CA rates match 9E except years 15+. They exceed 9E.



Nice summary to show why this will not help the company, unless they offer bonuses to new hires that exceed what theyíre currently offering. They will attract new hires Iím sure, but it will be at the cost of the FOs already on property. The union stance I believe is the 15 plus year captains didnít get much in 2015, but I would argue they got their in 2003. Republics captains rates were above industry average for most of the 2003 contract, so I suppose we could argue that the FOs getting a motor raise from 2015 CBA was just making them whole from the 2003 mess.

Again I ask how does paying a 20 year captain 15 more then Endeavor help attract FOs? Does the NC really think that FOs come to Republic to make it a career? for 99% would answer no.


Iím out of here, but I will be voting NO on my way out the door! If I was a junior FO I would I would vote no, and if this POS passes, I would leave ASAP. Wonder what they would do if 150 FOs resigned in 1 month?


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MileHi
01-13-2018, 10:08 AM
Nice summary to show why this will not help the company, unless they offer bonuses to new hires that exceed what theyíre currently offering. They will attract new hires Iím sure, but it will be at the cost of the FOs already on property. The union stance I believe is the 15 plus year captains didnít get much in 2015, but I would argue they got their in 2003. Republics captains rates were above industry average for most of the 2003 contract, so I suppose we could argue that the FOs getting a motor raise from 2015 CBA was just making them whole from the 2003 mess.

Again I ask how does paying a 20 year captain 15 more then Endeavor help attract FOs? Does the NC really think that FOs come to Republic to make it a career? for 99% would answer no.


Iím out of here, but I will be voting NO on my way out the door! If I was a junior FO I would I would vote no, and if this POS passes, I would leave ASAP. Wonder what they would do if 150 FOs resigned in 1 month?


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If your argument is Republic only needs to hire FOs, then they don't really need to negotiate at all. They're currently no where near the bonus limits they are contractually allowed. Right now, they are fat staffed and were staffing neutral for all of 2017. Republic needs staffing reliability in order to grow. The NC's narrative was that in order to ensure proper future staffing, the company must look at attrition as well as recruitment. The captain rates did not keep up with inflation in the 2015 CBA. The FO rates did. Considering the company will always expend their own efforts for recruitment, why should the NC waste theirs on the same? I for one am glad the company is finally willing to recognize and reward the people who have dedicated the most to republic. As you said, you're already out the door. No incentive would've kept you around anyway. So, why complain about feeling shorted if the effort to retain you was in vain? Thanks for making my point. Best of luck at your new airline.

ORD170
01-13-2018, 10:45 AM
If your argument is Republic only needs to hire FOs, then they don't really need to negotiate at all. They're currently no where near the bonus limits they are contractually allowed. Right now, they are fat staffed and were staffing neutral for all of 2017. Republic needs staffing reliability in order to grow. The NC's narrative was that in order to ensure proper future staffing, the company must look at attrition as well as recruitment. The captain rates did not keep up with inflation in the 2015 CBA. The FO rates did. Considering the company will always expend their own efforts for recruitment, why should the NC waste theirs on the same? I for one am glad the company is finally willing to recognize and reward the people who have dedicated the most to republic. As you said, you're already out the door. No incentive would've kept you around anyway. So, why complain about feeling shorted if the effort to retain you was in vain? Thanks for making my point. Best of luck at your new airline.


Many FOs are ****ed about the pay-rates, because they were told by the union and company they would get Endeavor rates. I flew with many who expected 9E rates, so of course they are upset. I guess if it passes we will see how many leave over this TA.

I would not leave for anything less then the big 4, but I believe FOs will make lateral moves and go to LCCs. Oh I would have stayed, if I didnít get the call. My life isnít bad here, but Iím not a junior FO either. I have 11 years seniority, so no way I would leave to anywhere besides the big 4. If I had 18 months or less, I would be sending out resumes.

Who knows what will be announced next month, and that could change everything I suppose. Republic still has the best crew around, but that doesnít pay the bills.



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CBreezy
01-13-2018, 11:36 AM
If your argument is Republic only needs to hire FOs, then they don't really need to negotiate at all. They're currently no where near the bonus limits they are contractually allowed. Right now, they are fat staffed and were staffing neutral for all of 2017. Republic needs staffing reliability in order to grow. The NC's narrative was that in order to ensure proper future staffing, the company must look at attrition as well as recruitment. The captain rates did not keep up with inflation in the 2015 CBA. The FO rates did. Considering the company will always expend their own efforts for recruitment, why should the NC waste theirs on the same? I for one am glad the company is finally willing to recognize and reward the people who have dedicated the most to republic. As you said, you're already out the door. No incentive would've kept you around anyway. So, why complain about feeling shorted if the effort to retain you was in vain? Thanks for making my point. Best of luck at your new airline.

This. It is not the job of the union to recruit and staff the airline. It is the job of the company. Why everyone insists the union should negotiate for things that are company wants is beyond me.

ex9driver
01-13-2018, 11:37 AM
If your argument is Republic only needs to hire FOs, then they don't really need to negotiate at all. They're currently no where near the bonus limits they are contractually allowed. Right now, they are fat staffed and were staffing neutral for all of 2017. Republic needs staffing reliability in order to grow. The NC's narrative was that in order to ensure proper future staffing, the company must look at attrition as well as recruitment. The captain rates did not keep up with inflation in the 2015 CBA. The FO rates did. Considering the company will always expend their own efforts for recruitment, why should the NC waste theirs on the same? I for one am glad the company is finally willing to recognize and reward the people who have dedicated the most to republic. As you said, you're already out the door. No incentive would've kept you around anyway. So, why complain about feeling shorted if the effort to retain you was in vain? Thanks for making my point. Best of luck at your new airline.

What prevents the company given the new language of giving the company discretion on timing of bonuses from paying people who attend their flight school over a multi year period. Basically a scholarship to attend our flight school and become a qualified FO in two years? Now you create a farm system for your airline circumventing the CBA and you have a steady stream of trained pilots meanwhile the company has no incentive to improve work rules for people here. Growth is good and we are all for it just not on our backs. Many pilots give equal weight to work rules ,quality of life and pay rates. There are many shortcomings in the present CBA regarding QOL issues.

CBreezy
01-13-2018, 12:05 PM
What prevents the company given the new language of giving the company discretion on timing of bonuses from paying people who attend their flight school over a multi year period. Basically a scholarship to attend our flight school and become a qualified FO in two years? Now you create a farm system for your airline circumventing the CBA and you have a steady stream of trained pilots meanwhile the company has no incentive to improve work rules for people here. Growth is good and we are all for it just not on our backs. Many pilots give equal weight to work rules ,quality of life and pay rates. There are many shortcomings in the present CBA regarding QOL issues.

What's to prevent the company from giving raises to schedulers and dispatchers? Nothing. The CBA does not control what money is paid to non-seniority list pilots. In fact, in terms of growth, pilots should be supportive of a free flight school for perspective new hires.

ex9driver
01-13-2018, 12:38 PM
What's to prevent the company from giving raises to schedulers and dispatchers? Nothing. The CBA does not control what money is paid to non-seniority list pilots. In fact, in terms of growth, pilots should be supportive of a free flight school for perspective new hires.

Nice try. Dispatchers and schedulers aren't qualified to fill a pilot seat. Duh! They need pilots bad especially if they have growth plans. With your logic the company should spend thousands on new hires who can barely fly but are qualified and get rid of people who have been here more then ten years. Why keep a ten year CA when a one year can do? Oh that's right that's exactly what they would like to do but there is a pilot shortage preventing that. Captains who plan on being here for a while for whatever their reasons want a decent life and when the company can get all the young pilots they want pay them bonuses and spread out the cost for several years at a flight school and pay senior guys minimal its a win win. Let me ask you a question. If they had plenty of new hires to staff their growth, why in the fu$k would they want to negotiate better work rules when that costs them money?

iahflyr
01-14-2018, 08:50 AM
So what are the FO rates they are offering?

ORD170
01-14-2018, 05:52 PM
So what are the FO rates they are offering?


1-9 years. Increase about $1-2 years 2-3.
45.00; 50.00; 51.00; 52.02; 53.06; 54.12; 55.20; 56.31; 57.43




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blindfayth
01-14-2018, 06:10 PM
As a potential new hire in late 2018 when i will be hitting my hours target, and someone who's on the fence between two regionals, the whole Republic package is *mostly* looking attractive.

I just wish the base pay would go up, and the bonuses went down. I'm not really interested in a big signing bonus, but rather a higher base pay so that I'd be rewarded more for picking up extra flying. This would be both fair to myself for working harder, and to pilots already on property.

Things that I like:
1) By contract, at least for now, no Jr Manning. (QOL)
2) No airport ready reserve. (QOL)
3) ORD, CMH, MCI bases. I prefer living in the mid-west, and would be willing to move to wherever I get sent. Nothing tying me down where I am now. Lots of nice suburbs that are <1 hr drive from the airport there. (QOL)
4) Good number of days off (QOL)
5) I *hear* that it's less hostile between labor & management here than.. other places. Can't confirm myself. (QOL)
6) Hopefully don't have to be sent to NYC. (QOL)

Right now, for my situation, Endeavor and Republic are close for me. However, Endeavor is slightly on top because of their base compensation package, nice 401k matching, good commuter policy, and seemingly non-hostile labor/management relationship. I also would love to stay in Michigan, and get a DTW base if possible (and move to the Macomb, MI area, which looks really nice).

Skywest used to be on top of my list 3 years ago when I was still a student pilot, but they seem to be very resistant about increasing pilot compensation. Very disappointing.

Republic could easily be my #1 place I'd like to end up by year's end if this TA ends up matching Endeavor. I have no desire to have a NYC domicile.

knewyork
01-14-2018, 07:49 PM
Something is in the works... many signs point to a merger or acquisition very soon.

Voski
01-14-2018, 07:49 PM
As a potential new hire in late 2018 when i will be hitting my hours target, and someone who's on the fence between two regionals, the whole Republic package is *mostly* looking attractive.

I just wish the base pay would go up, and the bonuses went down. I'm not really interested in a big signing bonus, but rather a higher base pay so that I'd be rewarded more for picking up extra flying. This would be both fair to myself for working harder, and to pilots already on property.

Things that I like:
1) By contract, at least for now, no Jr Manning. (QOL)
2) No airport ready reserve. (QOL)
3) ORD, CMH, MCI bases. I prefer living in the mid-west, and would be willing to move to wherever I get sent. Nothing tying me down where I am now. Lots of nice suburbs that are <1 hr drive from the airport there. (QOL)
4) Good number of days off (QOL)
5) I *hear* that it's less hostile between labor & management here than.. other places. Can't confirm myself. (QOL)
6) Hopefully don't have to be sent to NYC. (QOL)

Right now, for my situation, Endeavor and Republic are close for me. However, Endeavor is slightly on top because of their base compensation package, nice 401k matching, good commuter policy, and seemingly non-hostile labor/management relationship. I also would love to stay in Michigan, and get a DTW base if possible (and move to the Macomb, MI area, which looks really nice).

Skywest used to be on top of my list 3 years ago when I was still a student pilot, but they seem to be very resistant about increasing pilot compensation. Very disappointing.

Republic could easily be my #1 place I'd like to end up by year's end if this TA ends up matching Endeavor. I have no desire to have a NYC domicile.

I'm also a potential 2018 new hire but am reluctant due to everything I've read about how senior ORD is. I suppose attrition with the major carriers picking up hiring could increase movement, but I've read on here that ORD is a small base and may be closing in the next year or two. No bueno.

If you don't mind DTW, Endeavor sounds like the way to go.

ORD170
01-14-2018, 08:44 PM
Something is in the works... many signs point to a merger or acquisition very soon.



This^^^^^

I would expect announcement no later then the party in February. Could be a good deal, or bad though, especially when you talk about merger. Ask any tier three 2007-2008 hires about how that works.


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ORD170
01-14-2018, 08:48 PM
I'm also a potential 2018 new hire but am reluctant due to everything I've read about how senior ORD is. I suppose attrition with the major carriers picking up hiring could increase movement, but I've read on here that ORD is a small base and may be closing in the next year or two. No bueno.



If you don't mind DTW, Endeavor sounds like the way to go.



Wouldnít go to Republic for ORD. That may change in the near future though. Indianapolis will be a Republic as long as thereíre in business though. I did the commute for a few years, and itís pretty easy. Worst case you can drive it.


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hopeless in SEA
01-14-2018, 09:18 PM
This. It is not the job of the union to recruit and staff the airline. It is the job of the company. Why everyone insists the union should negotiate for things that are company wants is beyond me.

I can certainly agree with you on this one.

The problem is that there are two types of people. There are those who would sacrifice their advantage during a pilot shortage to acquire more for themselves now, while dooming themselves later. And there are those who would not give one penny during a time of growing strength, knowing that gains are coming and chances don't need to be taken.

The first kind wants to vote yes to this crap, because they see sunshine and roses now, but they'll be the first to complain when the market turns for 30 years.

Think about Scope Clauses. And then go ask any senior legacy pilot why he lost his job, his house, his car, his boat, and his wife after 9/11 while all the regional guys kept flying. At 1/3 the cost. Hell, they're still asking for more money just to make up for their own dumb mistake. (But that doesn't stop some of them from blaming the poor regional guy).

There are some trolls on here, sure. And there are some management and union traitors, as well. No doubt. But for all of you honest, decent, pilot people . . . think about this. You cannot grow yourselves into a great career by giving away your own money to subsidize Republic's hiring pool for movement or advancement.

The only leverage you will ever have is high-barrier-to-entry requirements for the job, and small numbers of well-qualified (and fun to fly with) professionals. So add the money to your paycheck!

hopeless in SEA
01-14-2018, 09:29 PM
It never ceases to amaze me that if you ask a pilot where to deposit his $17,500 signing bonus, he'll say "Cut me a check!"

Then when the accountant says, "Hey, Bob. You would make more money if you added that amount to your pay scales over the long haul," then Bob asks for higher pay rates, instead.

Eventually, when the company comes to Bob and demands that they need back the $17,500, for "reasons," Bob tells them to pound sand.

But when they come back during an early opener for the contract, and make the same request to take Bob's $17,500 for "a new-hire bonus," then Bob is like, "Oh, sure, you can have whatever you need to move me up." Never mind that Bob has lost money NOW, and killed off his own future leverage, by lowering the barriers-to-entry for all the high schoolers who want his life. Quite literally, all of Bob's life.

hopeless in SEA
01-14-2018, 09:41 PM
Also, just FYI . . .

If you work for any of the code-sharing regional airlines, then I hope that you've realized by now that every penny you've ever received came from the legacy airlines. They paid your management, so that management could pay you. And then management walks away with as much as they can lie about, after threatening, deceiving, and paying off others.

That means that when Delta, United, American, and Alaska make BILLIONS, and they have been for awhile, you should make more to. And while you can't do the negotiating for your management team, you certainly can let them know where the money belongs.

Here's a hint. It belongs to you. And not the next generation of people who want your job.

I would just love to know how many of you are comparing jobs at the mainline carriers based on their "new-hire bonuses." Or are you more interested in how they reward their on-property people?

hopeless in SEA
01-14-2018, 09:59 PM
Don't vote YES until you see the bloodshot whites of their eyes.

When the bonuses for new-hires, and the tuition reimbursements for candidates, are lowered to ZERO.

When the pilots who are actually voting and employed here, are the same pilots who are making significantly more.

Nothing drives career growth like getting richer where you're at. And let the college kids come up with their own plans and sacrifices, the way that many of you did.

Don't let fear cause you to lose heart. Even half of our employees can't find open seats for their commute, so don't believe for one second that you will be downsized into profitability. And if the regionals are around 50% of the flying market, who's gonna pick up the other millions of seats in the meantime? Not to mention that they'd lose all of their money retraining you. (That's why they want you to flow more than you do!)

And yes, there will be more mergers and acquisitions. That's a guarantee, so I hope that you've got language to guard against the scenarios. Then you won't have to negotiate that away, either! :confused:

dblbubble rider
01-15-2018, 06:45 AM
A word of caution to the junior FOs who lean towards a YES to this lowball:
The majority of us when we joined this company believed that we would be out of here to a major or jetblue in a couple of years,like you probably do right now.
Well guess what:after quite a few years,most of us are still trying. Unless you are a sought after minority or ex-military,it might take more than a little while...
So please think twice before saying yes to what will take away our only leverage. You may have to be here more than what you think.For a couple of bucks, you will enable the company to never return to the negotiating table. Think also how unfair it is for you who joined the company some months only short of the huge bonuses they want to implement with nothing for you in return

dblbubble rider
01-15-2018, 07:10 AM
Just some ideas:
Donít look so much at the cherry picking details the company presents to us while neglecting the big picture:
Basic rules of negotiating:
-the party initiating the talks will always have to offer more than the initial offer.Test the waters strategy.
-they will always try to present the particular negotiation as special,with special circumstances etc. There is nothing special about this negotiation: they are just trying to maximize profits-it is called business,and nothing wrong with it.And us to protect our interests.
-plans the company has made about expansion are based on conservative estimates that include pilots not accepting the lowest offer. Investors seek certainty and stability. They have already considered in their plans us not accepting their offer.

Everyone remembers how final their best and final offer was in the past....For most of us their offer boils down to around 25k after taxes over the course of 3 years...how much would it change your life?

Thewrongstufff
01-15-2018, 09:10 AM
A word of caution to the junior FOs who lean towards a YES to this lowball:
The majority of us when we joined this company believed that we would be out of here to a major or jetblue in a couple of years,like you probably do right now.
Well guess what:after quite a few years,most of us are still trying. Unless you are a sought after minority or ex-military,it might take more than a little while...
So please think twice before saying yes to what will take away our only leverage. You may have to be here more than what you think.For a couple of bucks, you will enable the company to never return to the negotiating table. Think also how unfair it is for you who joined the company some months only short of the huge bonuses they want to implement with nothing for you in return



Junior fo here... hard NO from me. Regardless of how long I or anyone stays here it should be much better for all of us. And anyone thinking why the company would agree to negotiate after last contract fiasco..... they have something scheming in the background they just need to shut us up first before they can move on it. They arenít coming to the table out of good graces and anyone too dumb not to see it should not have the right to vote :eek:

TheWeatherman
01-15-2018, 09:37 AM
Nobody hired October or later can vote, Union rules. That should actually help out the no vote a bit.

aperfcrcle
01-15-2018, 11:16 AM
Something is in the works... many signs point to a merger or acquisition very soon.

What signs other than the proposed language?

ex9driver
01-15-2018, 01:51 PM
What signs other than the proposed language?

They added the MRJ aircraft to pay rates.

MileHi
01-15-2018, 02:36 PM
They added the MRJ aircraft to pay rates.

They added MRJ70 rates. Your point?

aperfcrcle
01-15-2018, 03:38 PM
They added the MRJ aircraft to pay rates.

That really doesn't mean anything. We used to have rates for many aircraft that we didn't have, as do many airlines. I thought he was speaking about something specific by the way he worded his post.

Tpinks
01-15-2018, 04:10 PM
That really doesn't mean anything. We used to have rates for many aircraft that we didn't have, as do many airlines. I thought he was speaking about something specific by the way he worded his post. Article 26 of the LOA changes the merger or acquisition process that would be used should we buy anyone or be bought. Essentially it guarantees a metered flow from one certificate to another certificate without walls being put up. It would also allow our captains to down bid into an FO seat which currently is not allowed.

There is just too much specific language in that section for their not to be anything in the works.

ex9driver
01-15-2018, 04:35 PM
They added MRJ70 rates. Your point?

The guy wanted to know if there are signs of something up and since we don't have any of these on order its a change. Gee maybe we're gonna order some or maybe we will acquire someone who has them.....what do you think Sherlock?

Tpinks
01-15-2018, 05:55 PM
The guy wanted to know if there are signs of something up and since we don't have any of these on order its a change. Gee maybe we're gonna order some or maybe we will acquire someone who has them.....what do you think Sherlock?

Tran State Holdings is one rumor. They have MRJ90's on order that could easily be converted since scope is never going to allow them to fly in the USA.

Whatever it is, I'm starting to think it is going to be a huge deal. Something along the lines of a Republic/TSA Holdings/Mesa merger. Eventually using only the Republic brand and CPAs and moving the existing Ejets to Republic and eventually replacing the CRJ's and 145's with new E175's.

That would leave the AA WO's, Endeavor, Skywest and Republic.

FlyyGuyy
01-15-2018, 06:19 PM
Tran State Holdings is one rumor. They have MRJ90's on order that could easily be converted since scope is never going to allow them to fly in the USA.

Whatever it is, I'm starting to think it is going to be a huge deal. Something along the lines of a Republic/TSA Holdings/Mesa merger. Eventually using only the Republic brand and CPAs and moving the existing Ejets to Republic and eventually replacing the CRJ's and 145's with new E175's.

That would leave the AA WO's, Endeavor, Skywest and Republic.


lol

filler

Geardownflaps30
01-15-2018, 06:38 PM
Tran State Holdings is one rumor. They have MRJ90's on order that could easily be converted since scope is never going to allow them to fly in the USA.

Whatever it is, I'm starting to think it is going to be a huge deal. Something along the lines of a Republic/TSA Holdings/Mesa merger. Eventually using only the Republic brand and CPAs and moving the existing Ejets to Republic and eventually replacing the CRJ's and 145's with new E175's.

That would leave the AA WO's, Endeavor, Skywest and Republic.


I LOVE visiting Fantasy Island! Is BB Mr Roarke? Who is Tattoo?

Rahlifer
01-15-2018, 06:46 PM
Back to the matter at hand boys. Voting is open. Vote early, vote often!!

TangoIndiaMike1
01-15-2018, 08:10 PM
Where do you see this?



Everywhere!
http://www.airwis.com/pilots.html
39k signing, 10k year 2 and 5K year 3
https://www.psaairlines.com/careers/pilots/
$15k with a 20K retention bonus
Endeavor just got rid of a 20k per year bonus for 4 years for their new contract.
Commut air has a 20 k signing bonus and just got rid of the yearly 10k bonus



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ORD170
01-15-2018, 10:01 PM
Article 26 of the LOA changes the merger or acquisition process that would be used should we buy anyone or be bought. Essentially it guarantees a metered flow from one certificate to another certificate without walls being put up. It would also allow our captains to down bid into an FO seat which currently is not allowed.

There is just too much specific language in that section for their not to be anything in the works.

No doubt something is up, and itís probably an acquisition. I donít think buying any regionals would be beneficial to the pilot group. The SLI would be brutal and most likely result in longer upgrade for FOs currently at Republic. Look of McCaskill-Bond statute, and what fair and equatable means.

Captains can down bid now if they want, but I believe they cannot bid back to the right seat for 12 months. Donít believe it has been done though.

MileHi
01-16-2018, 04:10 AM
If there's a merger coming up, wouldn't it be good to have the best possible contract going into amalgamation talks? A position of strength is the desired one. You can bet once M&A activity begins, the company will handle their business first and put LOA talks on the back burner.

cf105
01-16-2018, 06:05 AM
If there's a merger coming up, wouldn't it be good to have the best possible contract going into amalgamation talks? A position of strength is the desired one. You can bet once M&A activity begins, the company will handle their business first and put LOA talks on the back burner.


Absolutely.

cf105
01-16-2018, 06:07 AM
No doubt something is up, and itís probably an acquisition. I donít think buying any regionals would be beneficial to the pilot group. The SLI would be brutal and most likely result in longer upgrade for FOs currently at Republic. Look of McCaskill-Bond statute, and what fair and equatable means.

Captains can down bid now if they want, but I believe they cannot bid back to the right seat for 12 months. Donít believe it has been done though.

There's flying for 180 coming available this year and next for AA and DL. An acquisition which would bring most of that flying, which would bring more planes, would most probably reduce upgrade time instead of extend it, no?

ORD170
01-16-2018, 06:12 AM
There's flying for 180 coming available this year and next for AA and DL. An acquisition which would bring most of that flying, which would bring more planes, would most probably reduce upgrade time instead of extend it, no?



Donít know if you were at republic for the last SLI, but it was messy. If an acquisition takes place, probably want FOs on that committee. Yes it could be good, but probably only if Republic gains additional aircraft.


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Rahlifer
01-16-2018, 08:02 AM
Donít know if you were at republic for the last SLI, but it was messy. If an acquisition takes place, probably want FOs on that committee. Yes it could be good, but probably only if Republic gains additional aircraft.


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That last SLI was an unholy mess because the idiot toonsters tried to shoehorn a bunch of unqualified rj pilots onto a MAINLINE seniority list. Of course the F9 guys or any pilot group in that situation would fight to the death. A straight staple to the bottom of the F9 list would have been the only scenario that was remotely reasonable.

ORD170
01-16-2018, 08:09 AM
That last SLI was an unholy mess because the idiot toonsters tried to shoehorn a bunch of unqualified rj pilots onto a MAINLINE seniority list. Of course the F9 guys or any pilot group in that situation would fight to the death. A straight staple to the bottom of the F9 list would have been the only scenario that was remotely reasonable.



Agreed about the ďtoonstersĒ, but it was more then that. The Lynx guys made out pretty well. The tier 3 republic guys got the shaft.

Most regionals regionals have relatively short upgrades. A three year FO at republic would most likely be junior to a 3 year pilot at TSA, because the TSA pilot would be in the left seat. Who knows though, because it really is up to the arbitrator and bond McCaskill


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hopeless in SEA
01-16-2018, 09:50 AM
If there's a merger coming up, wouldn't it be good to have the best possible contract going into amalgamation talks? A position of strength is the desired one. You can bet once M&A activity begins, the company will handle their business first and put LOA talks on the back burner.

Foolish. Totally stupid and foolish. The same totally stupid and foolish as 2 years ago.

You lose your "position of strength" when you have leverage and then decide to give it up for any deal ahead of a massive change.

Would you advise the pilot group to stop at the ATM and max out their withdrawal, knowing that they were going to be mugged shortly thereafter?

There are only two times when you should sign a new contract before a situation gets crazy loco. One, when things will certainly be getting worse, and you need to lock in gains now, which is the polar *******ing opposite of this pilot market. And two, when you don't have the proper protections in place for any merger or acquisition. Which is not the case, according to the Teamsters. And they are totally honest people, I heard. lol

Your argument that the Company will handle their business first is BS. The ONLY business they'll be handling for the next 10 years is us. Or there won't be anyone left. And that amuses me greatly.

hopeless in SEA
01-16-2018, 10:12 AM
That last SLI was an unholy mess because the idiot toonsters tried to shoehorn a bunch of unqualified rj pilots onto a MAINLINE seniority list. Of course the F9 guys or any pilot group in that situation would fight to the death. A straight staple to the bottom of the F9 list would have been the only scenario that was remotely reasonable.

If you really are an RAH lifer, then I wonder how you would feel about being stapled to the bottom of someone's list now. After you bought them. I'm not saying that the whole thing worked out well. It was a first, for sure.

The real problem is that the complexity level was ratcheted up by the immoral treatment of the Men of Midwest BEFORE their supposed bankruptcy. And then again, in a slightly different manner, with the Frontier Folk. The legitimacy and integrity of the bankruptcy and integration processes were *******D with from the beginning. By management.

Blaming the Teamsters for that is something that even I can't do. And they haven't acted in the best interest of their dues-paying members in years! But anyone who defends an outright staple of anybody hasn't a moral or rational bone in his body, making him no better than that same company management team.

I'll let ex9driver do the rest of the talking. He is an expert on this topic, and he deserves that much at least.

ex9driver
01-16-2018, 03:46 PM
Foolish. Totally stupid and foolish. The same totally stupid and foolish as 2 years ago.

You lose your "position of strength" when you have leverage and then decide to give it up for any deal ahead of a massive change.

Would you advise the pilot group to stop at the ATM and max out their withdrawal, knowing that they were going to be mugged shortly thereafter?

There are only two times when you should sign a new contract before a situation gets crazy loco. One, when things will certainly be getting worse, and you need to lock in gains now, which is the polar *******ing opposite of this pilot market. And two, when you don't have the proper protections in place for any merger or acquisition. Which is not the case, according to the Teamsters. And they are totally honest people, I heard. lol

Your argument that the Company will handle their business first is BS. The ONLY business they'll be handling for the next 10 years is us. Or there won't be anyone left. And that amuses me greatly.


Well said!



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