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View Full Version : This place is falling apart


hilltopflyer
01-07-2018, 11:17 AM
Crew services calling to see where the crews are (when on a scheduled overnight), worst delays in the USA percentage wise, worst cancellations for third day in a row of US airlines.


Bozo the pilot
01-07-2018, 12:01 PM
Crew services calling to see where the crews are (when on a scheduled overnight), worst delays in the USA percentage wise, worst cancellations for third day in a row of US airlines.

Its not really "Irregular Ops" for jetblue is it? Can we just call it SOP?
I wonder how many pax they've alienated this time.
Mickey mouse "major"

P-3Bubba
01-07-2018, 05:59 PM
Hey, this company nearly went out of business in 2007 for winter ops. 2014 was shut down by the FAA for the exact same reasons as what’s going on today. Fired the COO for it. And here we are again. Maybe jetblue sees that this is a fixable problem. Like in staffing, scheduling and cancellations. SNow sucks and it’s cold but this is not something you can wish away while operating in the northeast. It’s not good. We need to fix this.

-Bubs


Softpayman
01-07-2018, 07:07 PM
Thank God it was T4 that flooded and not 5.

David Puddy
01-08-2018, 04:09 AM
You need to separate what is controllable and what is uncontrollable. If controllable failures continue, shame on management. Regardless, messaging to customers needs to be improved...

hilltopflyer
01-08-2018, 05:17 AM
You need to separate what is controllable and what is uncontrollable. If controllable failures continue, shame on management. Regardless, messaging to customers needs to be improved...

Most of it is controllable. If not how come other places don't turn to mush when a winter storm rolls in

GuppyPuppy
01-08-2018, 05:33 AM
Sure would be nice if we had a contract.

:rolleyes:

Gup

P-3Bubba
01-08-2018, 07:03 AM
The contract is something else thatís controllable. You think that the lack of progresss at the table and the fact dudes arenít clambering up each otherís backs to help out arenít connected? Youíre wrong. If we had a contract that allowed for the proper compensation towards the pilots efforts to assist in management mistakes, then the severity of this snow storm would have been lessened. The cost savings in pilot staffing, which includes both hiring and upgrades, has ended up costing much larger amounts in the form of lost customers, their favorite OTP and the cost innefficienies associated with reconstructing the operation for the one millionth time!

-Bubs

P-3Bubba
01-08-2018, 07:06 AM
Thank God it was T4 that flooded and not 5.

If T5 flooded weíre out of business. Thatís how close we came to suffering a fatal blow. Management needs to wake the F up, get a contract, staff the airline and get us on a mission toward the future. BRING BACK DAVE B!!!!! Thatís my new rally cry. And Iím crying cause I said it.

-Bubs

Xtreme87
01-08-2018, 09:53 AM
Apparently weíre back to normal. Everything is fine. 🔥🔥🔥

On another note...BOS is still only at 150? We announced BOS200 almost 2 years ago. Guess thatís not going so well.

P-3Bubba
01-08-2018, 10:05 AM
I just watched the ďback to normalĒ video from SVP LSC. Wow. This storm was so challenging ďbecause it hit the northeastĒ. And ďjfk closedĒ. Duh!!!! ďWeíre still handling some crew rest issues.Ē That means staffing. Then a RSA package hit the emails. Awesome. More helping out bail outs. Staff appropriately. Upgrade appropriately. Use your spending for good. Not for evil recoveries.

BTW, unofficially SVP LSC says ďOps NormalĒ but officially itís ďLevel 2 IropĒ. So, if youíre getting boned by CS itís because they can use the irop excuse but LSC can say fully recovered. It continues....

-Bubs

TristarJS30
01-08-2018, 10:33 AM
BTW, unofficially SVP LSC says “Ops Normal” but officially it’s “Level 2 Irop”. So, if you’re getting boned by CS it’s because they can use the irop excuse but LSC can say fully recovered. It continues....

-Bubs

This is more likely a case of one hand not having a clue what the other is doing. (Otherwise known as Monday)

Hercbubba
01-08-2018, 11:02 AM
I hope we go out of business...probably make more money with unemployment, than 2/3rd yr pay!

PasserOGas
01-08-2018, 11:48 AM
I hope we go out of business...probably make more money with unemployment, than 2/3rd yr pay!

Maybe get bought by a real airline in BK

Beechnut
01-08-2018, 02:00 PM
Behind the scenes look inside LSC this weekend.
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Dude. WTF.

captsurf
01-08-2018, 02:03 PM
Dude. WTF.

My bad. Hyperlink went crazy

I nominate myself TOTD for that.

slimothy
01-08-2018, 03:00 PM
My bad. Hyperlink went crazy

I nominate myself TOTD for that.

Iíd guess thatís a pretty accurate depiction of the chaos in LSC this weekend.

Bozo the pilot
01-08-2018, 03:11 PM
Maybe get bought by a real airline in BK

Please please please. Did this weekend convert any juicers out there? ...
I didnt think so:rolleyes:

BeatNavy
01-08-2018, 03:33 PM
Please please please. Did this weekend convert any juicers out there? ...
I didnt think so:rolleyes:

I flew with 3 captains in the last 3 days. 2 had no lanyard. All wanted to single engine taxi in JFK and other snowy/icy places. All wanted to not write stuff up or wait until back in JFK to do it. One extended me without consulting me (he was fresh, I wasnít). That cost me a lot of money, he got his though. None had read the union email. All did stand up PAs, 2 of which gave HORRIBLE and embarrassing comedy routines to already delayed and disgruntled pax. Nails on a chalkboard. All were on VDAs. One is good buddies with a fairly prominent union guy and proudly said he supports the union, had the grip and lanyard, but did EVERYTHING the union said not to do. After the first day I asked if he read the union email..he said no. He got to hear all about it and the P2P call. I showed him the email. He seemed surprised about the things the union wants us to do, like be safe and legal and write stuff up, not make excess announcements, and do...you know, pilot stuff. He ironically also had failed to do a lot of pilot stuff, but made sure his stand up was done. Itís so hard as an FO not only trying to mold to each different captain, but to stand up to them when they say ďletís write it up later or not at all. You cool with that?Ē Or ďwe will go out on one, itís not that bad out.Ē One said his timeline for being in a dispute is Jan 31st if we donít get anywhere with our next two sessions. I reminded him that Jan 1st was when our union leaders made it clear we are in a labor dispute. I lost a lot of faith in this pilot group this weekend. But hopefully enough of us can educate those who donít read union email and message boards. Shocking how out of the loop some of these guys are. Itís only your job, future, and potential boost to pay/retirement/benefits thatís at stake.

I really hope the union starts giving out flyers to put in flight decks to educate the ignorant.

capt707
01-08-2018, 03:43 PM
I lost a lot of faith in this pilot group this weekend.

I lost faith a while ago, but this weekend just showed again that A LOT of our guys here still or just "don't get it".

I am done rowing one way while there are so many still rowing the opposite way for selfish/greedy/whatever BS excuse it is this time around. We don't deserve a CBA! I'm back to putting 110% in getting out of this place!

Softpayman
01-08-2018, 04:01 PM
Maybe get bought by a real airline in BK

Ironically BK seems to be the road to becoming a "Real Airline." United...NW...DL...AA fairly recently.

Xtreme87
01-08-2018, 04:32 PM
Think our work rules and pay are bad? Try them after bankruptcy.

hilltopflyer
01-08-2018, 04:42 PM
I flew with 3 captains in the last 3 days. 2 had no lanyard. All wanted to single engine taxi in JFK and other snowy/icy places. All wanted to not write stuff up or wait until back in JFK to do it. One extended me without consulting me (he was fresh, I wasnít). That cost me a lot of money, he got his though. None had read the union email. All did stand up PAs, 2 of which gave HORRIBLE and embarrassing comedy routines to already delayed and disgruntled pax. Nails on a chalkboard. All were on VDAs. One is good buddies with a fairly prominent union guy and proudly said he supports the union, had the grip and lanyard, but did EVERYTHING the union said not to do. After the first day I asked if he read the union email..he said no. He got to hear all about it and the P2P call. I showed him the email. He seemed surprised about the things the union wants us to do, like be safe and legal and write stuff up, not make excess announcements, and do...you know, pilot stuff. He ironically also had failed to do a lot of pilot stuff, but made sure his stand up was done. Itís so hard as an FO not only trying to mold to each different captain, but to stand up to them when they say ďletís write it up later or not at all. You cool with that?Ē Or ďwe will go out on one, itís not that bad out.Ē One said his timeline for being in a dispute is Jan 31st if we donít get anywhere with our next two sessions. I reminded him that Jan 1st was when our union leaders made it clear we are in a labor dispute. I lost a lot of faith in this pilot group this weekend. But hopefully enough of us can educate those who donít read union email and message boards. Shocking how out of the loop some of these guys are. Itís only your job, future, and potential boost to pay/retirement/benefits thatís at stake.

I really hope the union starts giving out flyers to put in flight decks to educate the ignorant.

You are allowed to stand up for SOP to cpts. If it isn't safe to taxi single engine stand up and voice it. Even if the cpt extends without consulting, you can call out. Cpt doesn't control everything in the cockpit (especially the fo)

BeatNavy
01-08-2018, 04:56 PM
You are allowed to stand up for SOP to cpts. If it isn't safe to taxi single engine stand up and voice it. Even if the cpt extends without consulting, you can call out. Cpt doesn't control everything in the cockpit (especially the fo)

Well yeah, and I did, but it made/makes for an awkward cockpit climate (and degradation of CRM if you want to go there) after laying down the law with a captain. It is supposed to be the Captain making the safe and prudent decisions and not being overridden by a subordinate. Itís unsat when almost all my captains get plssed when I ask them to write stuff up. Then they try to pressure me to accept doing it later. I know for a fact it happens all the time. Iíve talked to friends and captains about it. No way are the small writeups I find not found by others. They are just overlooked because they are minor. The union (and company and FAA) has said it is a legal requirement to write it up, no matter how small. Why a CA would try to pressure FOs to accept anything less is beyond me, in (or not in) a labor dispute. As for the extension...I wasnít fatigued. Thatís not the point. Extensions arenít fatigue calls. They are purely optional regardless of fatigue level. No fatigue is required. So he could have consulted me and known that I didnít want to extend.

CaptCoolHand
01-08-2018, 05:00 PM
Well yeah, and I did, but it made/makes for an awkward cockpit climate (and degradation of CRM if you want to go there) after laying down the law with a captain. It is supposed to be the Captain making the safe and prudent decisions and not being overridden by a subordinate. Itís unsat when almost all my captains get plssed when I ask them to write stuff up. Then they try to pressure me to accept doing it later. I know for a fact it happens all the time. Iíve talked to friends and captains about it. No way are the small writeups I find not found by others. They are just overlooked because they are minor. The union (and company and FAA) has said it is a legal requirement to write it up, no matter how small. Why a CA would try to pressure FOs to accept anything less is beyond me, in (or not in) a labor dispute. As for the extension...I wasnít fatigued. Thatís not the point. Extensions arenít fatigue calls. They are purely optional regardless of fatigue level. No fatigue is required. So he could have consulted me and known that I didnít want to extend.

This is not acceptable. And should prompt a call to prostans at the very least.

citxls
01-08-2018, 05:43 PM
I also agree a call to pro stans is in order. Not only unsafe, but it also sets a bad tone because he/she will do it to another FO. Make the call so at least there is a track record of extending without at minimum discussing with the FO. Absolutely disgusting.

hilltopflyer
01-08-2018, 06:03 PM
Well yeah, and I did, but it made/makes for an awkward cockpit climate (and degradation of CRM if you want to go there) after laying down the law with a captain. It is supposed to be the Captain making the safe and prudent decisions and not being overridden by a subordinate. Itís unsat when almost all my captains get plssed when I ask them to write stuff up. Then they try to pressure me to accept doing it later. I know for a fact it happens all the time. Iíve talked to friends and captains about it. No way are the small writeups I find not found by others. They are just overlooked because they are minor. The union (and company and FAA) has said it is a legal requirement to write it up, no matter how small. Why a CA would try to pressure FOs to accept anything less is beyond me, in (or not in) a labor dispute. As for the extension...I wasnít fatigued. Thatís not the point. Extensions arenít fatigue calls. They are purely optional regardless of fatigue level. No fatigue is required. So he could have consulted me and known that I didnít want to extend.

I feel ya. Totally unacceptable no matter the situation.

Bigapplepilot
01-08-2018, 08:29 PM
Please clear this up for me. A captain can agree to extend the FO. If the FO agrees, cool. It was my understanding that if the FO says he/she will not extend AGAINST the captainís wish, that FO must file a fatigue report. Am I wrong? Because if no fatigue report is required from the FO, and it is simply optional for the FO to extend, than why ask the captain about the FOs extension at all? Just ask the FO.

BeatNavy
01-08-2018, 08:50 PM
Please clear this up for me. A captain can agree to extend the FO. If the FO agrees, cool. It was my understanding that if the FO says he/she will not extend AGAINST the captainís wish, that FO must file a fatigue report. Am I wrong? Because if no fatigue report is required from the FO, and it is simply optional for the FO to extend, than why ask the captain about the FOs extension at all? Just ask the FO.

You are correct. PIC and carrier are the approval authority to extend either/both crew members. If the PIC doesnít concur to an extension for either crewmember, itís done and over with. Company canít say anything. No fatigue report required. If Captain concurs, but the FO does not concur because he believes he is not fit to fly, a fatigue report must be filled out. This can be avoided by the captain not concuring in the first place and talking to the FO, hence me getting pssed when I returned from the walk around and my Captain said ďhey the company called and asked how you were doing and if Iíd agree to extend you, so I did. Hope thatís cool.Ē

hilltopflyer
01-08-2018, 08:53 PM
You are correct. PIC and carrier are the approval authority to extend either/both crew members. If the PIC doesnít concur to an extension for either crewmember, itís done and over with. Company canít say anything. No fatigue report required. If Captain concurs, but the FO does not concur because he believes he is not fit to fly, a fatigue report must be filled out. This can be avoided by the captain not concuring in the first place and talking to the FO, hence me getting pssed when I returned from the walk around and my Captain said ďhey the company called and asked how you were doing and if Iíd agree to extend you, so I did. Hope thatís cool.Ē

That's absolutely ridiculous. He does not need to be a captain.

Bluedriver
01-09-2018, 12:24 AM
Ironically BK seems to be the road to becoming a "Real Airline." United...NW...DL...AA fairly recently.

And there's LOWpayman with the subtle plug for BP...

So predictable.

Xtreme87
01-09-2018, 04:03 AM
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/as-alaska-air-cuts-costs-employee-discontent-grows-and-passenger-loyalty-is-at-risk/

Think weíre falling apart? Try being Alaska. If that places continues this nosedive, itís only a matter of time before JB will have LAX, SFO, PDX and SEA. Seriously hope that happens. Except scope would be a huge issue. I think more than half of their flying is outsourced to some bottom feeders.

CaptCoolHand
01-09-2018, 04:49 AM
We are now where near BK... not even in the same galaxy.

We can cross that road if/when it comes.

Right NOW we have one of if not the best balance books in the industry and we print money.

The time is now for a market rate contract.

P-3Bubba
01-09-2018, 04:58 AM
We are now where near BK... not even in the same galaxy.

We can cross that road if/when it comes.

Right NOW we have one of if not the best balance books in the industry and we print money.

The time is now for a market rate contract.

I think itís time to truly invest in more venture capital endeavors. I heard someone is putting the Brooklyn Bridge up for sale.

-Bubs

b82rez
01-09-2018, 05:06 AM
You are correct. PIC and carrier are the approval authority to extend either/both crew members. If the PIC doesnít concur to an extension for either crewmember, itís done and over with. Company canít say anything. No fatigue report required. If Captain concurs, but the FO does not concur because he believes he is not fit to fly, a fatigue report must be filled out. This can be avoided by the captain not concuring in the first place and talking to the FO, hence me getting pssed when I returned from the walk around and my Captain said ďhey the company called and asked how you were doing and if Iíd agree to extend you, so I did. Hope thatís cool.Ē

It's technically not the PIC "extending" the F/O. The PIC and the company can decide together to apply an extension to every limit in Table B. Once that occurs, all FDP limits in Table B are changed for all pilots regardless if they require it or not.

Jetblue does require a report any time an extension is refused by the CA. It's either a FCIR or a Fatigue report if the refusal was for human factors reasons.

Although not required by 117, it's Jetblue's position that the CA consult with the F/O prior to granting an extension.

P-3Bubba
01-09-2018, 05:09 AM
I’ve railed about this a thousand times. It’s hard to take the cumbya out of the cumbya pilot group. I have a buddy who’s tying his best to not pick up rsa because he received some informal counseling from his peers. Most heard answer to disregard doing the right thing? “Someone else is getting (RSA $) why not me?” I’d like to see how the LGB guys r handling the RSA’s.

The whole point is that guys picking up rsa on days off is like a 2 for 1sale. Everyone loves 2 for 1 at the store. Well, that’s what we are when we pick up rsa. Corporate loves 2 for 1 employees too. You hire 1 pilot to do twice the work. But think about ALL THAT $$$$$$!!

Short staffing is a cost saver. It prevents hiring and more importantly upgrades. That’s training and salary costs. Guys must like sitting reserve and never getting to bid to MCO or FLL.

A market rate contract will allow pilots more flexibility to work more if they want to and make more money whether hey do what they’ve agreed to do or pick up extra time. I think the company sees giving thr pilots a CBA as a loss. They’ve lost face and money. But really they win. The pilots will probably do more and bail them out of their irop mistakes faster thus saving them money. They fix their labor costs and balance staffing. Herb Kelleher paid his pilots the best contracts because he knew it’s the pilots who move the jets. More jets moving = more revenue.

We’re hampered by the old school jetblue management mentality and a fear of moving this airline forward. Someone has to let go of the Neeleman way and get us to a future with goals and progress gates.

-Bubs

Ted Striker
01-09-2018, 05:37 AM
Someone else can jump in but, I believe extensions are only for unforseen circumstances ie mechanical, medical emergency. Weather and delays are well known in advance, as well as flight delays from historical data.

Bluetruth
01-09-2018, 05:50 AM
Short staffing is a cost saver. It prevents hiring and more importantly upgrades. Thatís training and salary costs. Guys must like sitting reserve and never getting to bid to MCO or FLL.
-Bubs


The new New York sick leave laws will force their hand to ramp up hiring. They won't be able to just constantly issue RSA in NY like they currently do in tiny LGB on account of Kin-Care. I think something similar is working its way through the MA courts.

Speaking of LGB, looks like their hands will be forced there too afterall. From a local LGB newspaper:

JetBlue Late-night flights and LB Airport fines
At the urging of Fourth District Councilman Daryl Supernaw, a process was started last year to look at the fine structure for Late Flights at the Long Beach Airport. That plan is likely to be announced in 2018.

JetBlue racked up a historic amount of violations and resulting fines in 2017. The U.S. Transportation Department's on-time performance Data through October of last year shows that JetBlue's 70% average is the airlines worst performance since 2007. The industry average for the same period is 79%.

With 70% of its flights stopping in the Northeast, the airline has blamed airport runway repair work at Boston's Logan and New York's Kennedy airports as well as having less time padding in its flight schedules for its on-time problems. The U.S. Transportation Department reports that JetBlue is responsible for 8 percent of its delays compared to the U.S. industry average of 5.1%

New York and Boston are not the only cities JetBlue is having on-time issues. Here in Long Beach, plus in San Juan Puerto Rico and in Orlando Florida, JetBlue's on-time-performance has declined for the last three years.

JetBlue's five consecutive months of "chronic delays" (more than 30 minutes, 50% of the time) of JetBlue Flight 687 that flies between Orlando and San Juan has prompted a review from the U.S. Department of Transportation.

Delays have cost JetBlue money other than the Long Beach fines. Delays cost airlines about $62.55 a minute according to the Airlines for America trade group.

Std Deviation
01-09-2018, 06:39 AM
Well yeah, and I did, but it made/makes for an awkward cockpit climate (and degradation of CRM if you want to go there) after laying down the law with a captain. It is supposed to be the Captain making the safe and prudent decisions and not being overridden by a subordinate. Itís unsat when almost all my captains get plssed when I ask them to write stuff up. Then they try to pressure me to accept doing it later. I know for a fact it happens all the time. Iíve talked to friends and captains about it. No way are the small writeups I find not found by others. They are just overlooked because they are minor. The union (and company and FAA) has said it is a legal requirement to write it up, no matter how small. Why a CA would try to pressure FOs to accept anything less is beyond me, in (or not in) a labor dispute. As for the extension...I wasnít fatigued. Thatís not the point. Extensions arenít fatigue calls. They are purely optional regardless of fatigue level. No fatigue is required. So he could have consulted me and known that I didnít want to extend.

Had a few guys lately calling for checklists without the precursors satisfied so theyíd say just skip that and come back. Example: doors and slides. Ok, skip that and weíll come back. Uh, no. Thatís not how a checklist works. In fact that bypasses the safety built within the checklist. It also is a violation of SOPs. So when I said I can hold an item but not bypass and return - per the manual - they got ****ed.

hilltopflyer
01-09-2018, 06:43 AM
The new New York sick leave laws will force their hand to ramp up hiring. They won't be able to just constantly issue RSA in NY like they currently do in tiny LGB on account of Kin-Care. I think something similar is working its way through the MA courts.

Speaking of LGB, looks like their hands will be forced there too afterall. From a local LGB newspaper:

How so. Not up to date on the ny laws

b82rez
01-09-2018, 08:53 AM
Someone else can jump in but, I believe extensions are only for unforseen circumstances ie mechanical, medical emergency. Weather and delays are well known in advance, as well as flight delays from historical data.

According to Jetblue and our POI, pilots are not only not responsible for, but are not even allowed to determine if unforseen circumstances exist for a given situation.

Theoretically, the company must disclose every extension taken to the FAA, and the FAA will decide if those circumstances exist. I would be amazed if our FSDO even looked into one extension, let alone the, at least, hundreds of ones we have had through the years.

Bluetruth
01-09-2018, 09:14 AM
How so. Not up to date on the ny laws

7.9.8.1 New York State Paid Family Leave (NYS PFL)

In your bluebook. Was added in last month.

atrdriver
01-09-2018, 09:21 AM
7.9.8.1 New York State Paid Family Leave (NYS PFL)

In your bluebook. Was added in last month.

Yeah everyone reads their CBB updates :D:D

Inform your employees about Paid Family Leave

Update appropriate written materials distributed to your employees, such as employee handbooks, to include Paid Family Leave information.
If you do not have a handbook, provide written guidance to employees concerning their Paid Family Leave benefits.
Model language for employee handbooks and other written materials is available here.

Prepare for employee payroll contributions

Update your payroll processes to collect the employee contributions that pay for this insurance.
It is strongly recommended you notify employees before withholding any contributions. A template Notice of Employee Payroll Deduction is available here.
The employee contribution rate is set every year to match the cost of insurance coverage. The current contribution rate is 0.126% of an employeeís weekly wage, up to 0.126% of the annual New York State Average Weekly Wage (SAWW). In 2018, the maximum weekly employee contribution is approximately $1.65 per week or $85.56 annually. For example, in 2018 if an employee earns $32,000 a year ($615 a week), the employee will pay 78 cents per week. Employees who earn above the SAWW of $67,907 a year ($1305.92 a week) will pay the maximum contribution of $1.65 per week.
Use the ny.gov/pflcalculator to get an estimate of an employee's weekly deduction.

Inform ineligible employees about waivers

Identify employees who will not meet the time-worked requirement for eligibility (see Eligibility section of this website), and offer them the option to waive coverage.
Provide these employees with a waiver form, which is available here.
Keep a copy of all completed waivers on file.

Post an employee notice

Your insurance carrier will provide you with a notice to employees (Form PFL-120) stating that you have Paid Family Leave insurance.
If you are self-insured, you can get this notice by contacting the NYS Workersí Compensation Board at [email protected]
Post and maintain this notice in plain view, similar to how the signage for workersí compensation and disability insurance is displayed.



Thanks JB for following NYS guidance! Most of us had no idea until we saw more deductions taken from our paycheck yesterday.

How "Caring" :rolleyes:

Bluetruth
01-09-2018, 09:36 AM
Same thing happened in California. Kept under wraps for as long as possible.

rvr1800
01-09-2018, 09:48 AM
You are correct. PIC and carrier are the approval authority to extend either/both crew members. If the PIC doesnít concur to an extension for either crewmember, itís done and over with. Company canít say anything. No fatigue report required. If Captain concurs, but the FO does not concur because he believes he is not fit to fly, a fatigue report must be filled out. This can be avoided by the captain not concuring in the first place and talking to the FO, hence me getting pssed when I returned from the walk around and my Captain said ďhey the company called and asked how you were doing and if Iíd agree to extend you, so I did. Hope thatís cool.Ē

Wow what was he thinking? You may have mentioned it already but Iím assuming he came on duty later than you so he didnít have to extend but you did? And he just says yeah heíll extend?! What an idiot.

FYI for everyone reading, a majority of fatigue related extension refusals get pay protected for the portion of the flying they didnít extend for. Thatís not the case for non fatigue related refusals.

atrdriver
01-09-2018, 09:56 AM
https://www.ny.gov/new-york-state-paid-family-leave/paid-family-leave-frequently-asked-questions

Can an employer decide to pay for Paid Family Leave on behalf of their employees?
Yes, an employer may choose to pay for the PFL benefit on behalf of employees.

How much do employees pay?
The 2018 payroll contribution is 0.126% of an employeeís weekly wage, capped at 0.126% of the SAWW.

So not only did we take a COLA paycut on 1/1, JB also handed us an additional 0.126% paycut by not covering PFL on our behalf.

atrdriver
01-09-2018, 09:58 AM
Wow what was he thinking? You may have mentioned it already but Iím assuming he came on duty later than you so he didnít have to extend but you did? And he just says yeah heíll extend?! What an idiot.

FYI for everyone reading, a majority of fatigue related extension refusals get pay protected for the portion of the flying they didnít extend for. Thatís not the case for non fatigue related refusals.


While you're right about the pay protection, BeatNavy's situation wouldn't have been an extension refusal. He would have had to call out fatigued. If he couldn't prove fatigue to the committee's satisfaction, he would not be pay protected like he would for a refusal.

rvr1800
01-09-2018, 10:04 AM
While you're right about the pay protection, BeatNavy's situation wouldn't have been an extension refusal. He would have had to call out fatigued. If he couldn't prove fatigue to the committee's satisfaction, he would not be pay protected like he would for a refusal.

So Iím a little confused then. Captain didnít need to extend but FO did. FO (BeatNavy) refuses extension but does not cite fatigue as his reason. He is pay protected in that situation?

atrdriver
01-09-2018, 10:39 AM
So Iím a little confused then. Captain didnít need to extend but FO did. FO (BeatNavy) refuses extension but does not cite fatigue as his reason. He is pay protected in that situation?

In BlueLand, FOs do not have the authority to refuse an extension. The captain is the only one who can. Captain didn't need to extend because he was fresh, but he extended his FO (BN) unilaterally. BN's only course of action would be to call out fatigued.

Captain is hereby nominated for Tool of the Year.

CaptCoolHand
01-09-2018, 11:08 AM
In BlueLand, FOs do not have the authority to refuse an extension. The captain is the only one who can. Captain didn't need to extend because he was fresh, but he extended his FO (BN) unilaterally. BN's only course of action would be to call out fatigued.

Captain is hereby nominated for Tool of the Year.

What's the hang up with a fatigue call? you've exceeded the FAA duty limit. you are too tired to continue... you are fatigued. call it.

please please please, if you are not fit for duty and still flying you are breaking the law. call in fatigued. it's the only safe option.

Fill out paperwork get paid. done.

atrdriver
01-09-2018, 11:12 AM
What's the hang up with a fatigue call? you've exceeded the FAA duty limit. you are too tired to continue... you are fatigued. call it.

please please please, if you are not fit for duty and still flying you are breaking the law. call in fatigued. it's the only safe option.

Fill out paperwork get paid. done.

I could understand someone's skepticism about getting paid for a fatigue call under the circumstances given our remarkable $avety culture.

Not justifying it at all, but when you're paid as poorly as we are every dollar makes a difference.

rvr1800
01-09-2018, 12:34 PM
In BlueLand, FOs do not have the authority to refuse an extension. The captain is the only one who can. Captain didn't need to extend because he was fresh, but he extended his FO (BN) unilaterally. BN's only course of action would be to call out fatigued.

Captain is hereby nominated for Tool of the Year.

His is a pretty unique situation that I believe needs to be addressed by the FAA or company. Maybe it has been but I havenít seen it. How can the Captain ever answer that question for the FO? Iím not defending the CA in the above situation at all but whatís a CA supposed to do if they literally just walked into work and the company calls and asks to extend the FO who has been on duty for a few hours? Iíd tell them I have no clue as to the fitness of someone else how about you call them? Iíd refuse to answer the question. Part 117 is a complete joke.

Bigapplepilot
01-09-2018, 12:58 PM
You are correct. PIC and carrier are the approval authority to extend either/both crew members. If the PIC doesnít concur to an extension for either crewmember, itís done and over with. Company canít say anything. No fatigue report required. If Captain concurs, but the FO does not concur because he believes he is not fit to fly, a fatigue report must be filled out. This can be avoided by the captain not concuring in the first place and talking to the FO, hence me getting pssed when I returned from the walk around and my Captain said ďhey the company called and asked how you were doing and if Iíd agree to extend you, so I did. Hope thatís cool.Ē

That clears it up. Thank you. But it still seems weird that a captain who just shows up can answer this question for an FO that is approaching 12 hours of duty.

BeatNavy
01-09-2018, 01:59 PM
To answer a couple guys above and to clarify, as someone pointed out an FCIR is required for any refusal extension. But not the fatigue report and associated review, unless itís fatigue related. In my situation, despite being extended, I was not fatigued. If I were, I would have called out fatigued. I even had financial incentive to do so, and the irop and rolling delays and pairing mods would have likely been adequate justification. But I couldnít in good faith claim fatigue at that point in the evening when I actually felt ok. If I had to do an FCIR for an extension refusal, I would have cited safety as the reason, due to conditions (snow/ice), multiple schedule changes, multiple maintenance issues, the potential for even more enroute delays beyond my extension time window (real possibility as I was close) despite being off by the MOT, the potential for fatigue if I continued in those circumstances, especially if we got delayed further once under way. But at that moment in time I couldnít honestly say I was fatigued.

Bozo the pilot
01-09-2018, 04:04 PM
What's the hang up with a fatigue call? you've exceeded the FAA duty limit. you are too tired to continue... you are fatigued. call it.

please please please, if you are not fit for duty and still flying you are breaking the law. call in fatigued. it's the only safe option.

Fill out paperwork get paid. done.

Absolutely- Its the call you need to make and we dont do it enough. When you say fatigue to a scheduler, its game over- Enjoy your sleep and as RVR stated, in most circumstances, youll get pay protected.
Dont give them an inch.

PasserOGas
01-09-2018, 04:19 PM
Absolutely- Its the call you need to make and we dont do it enough. When you say fatigue to a scheduler, its game over- Enjoy your sleep and as RVR stated, in most circumstances, youll get pay protected.
Dont give them an inch.

With our work rules and all the circadian swapping in our PLANNED pairings, I know guys are flying tired.

Why more don't call out, I think the FCIR scares them and sick has more "protections". A fatigue call gets seen by the FAA. Enough fatigue calls on the same trip and things might start changing for liability reasons. I have always been paid even when the company claimed it was partially "my fault".

Tom a Hawk
01-09-2018, 06:16 PM
With our work rules and all the circadian swapping in our PLANNED pairings, I know guys are flying tired.

Why more don't call out, I think the FCIR scares them and sick has more "protections". A fatigue call gets seen by the FAA. Enough fatigue calls on the same trip and things might start changing for liability reasons. I have always been paid even when the company claimed it was partially "my fault".

Can you expand on what was deemed ďyour faultĒ?

hilltopflyer
01-09-2018, 07:01 PM
Can you expand on what was deemed ďyour faultĒ?

In the few times I've called out it was never seen as my fault

CaptCoolHand
01-10-2018, 03:54 AM
Can you expand on what was deemed ďyour faultĒ?

If you have to say "I was fatigued because I..." it's probably your fault.

- I didn't sleep because my kids
-I had a drink
- My commute
- fighting with wife
-fighting with xwife
- girlfriend missed me.... 3 times
-the guy in my crash pad snores at 137Db ect...

If your fatigue was induced by the operation:
LATE flights...
MX
Flew unexpectedly into the WOCL
Compounding fatigue catches up to you, maybe you extended the day before and got min rest the next...
Circadian flip flops shows at 2300 followed by a 0430 28hrs later...
Hotel issues, rooms not ready, hockey tournament kept you up all night
maids opening up your do not disturb sign door, the elevator was next to your room...


Just pull up the Fatigue FCIR and read through it. Read the FRPM.

Don't fly fatigued. It's not safe, and it's illegal. If you have an incident, they'll ask you about your previous rest. If you extended why you extended and how come you didn't know you were fatigued at the end of your flight even though you felt fine to start. Fatigue is difficult to assess especially when fatigued. It's all spelled out in the Fatigue Manual.

Even if it is your fault and you are fatigued the responsible thing to do is to call out ASAP to give the operation as much time to recover as possible

rvr1800
01-10-2018, 04:25 AM
Just pull up the Fatigue FCIR and read through it. Read the FRPM.

Don't fly fatigued. It's not safe, and it's illegal. If you have an incident, they'll ask you about your previous rest. If you extended why you extended and how come you didn't know you were fatigued at the end of your flight even though you felt fine to start. Fatigue is difficult to assess especially when fatigued. It's all spelled out in the Fatigue Manual.

Even if it is your fault and you are fatigued the responsible thing to do is to call out ASAP to give the operation as much time to recover as possible

And there in lies the absolute absurdity of part 117 extensions. Weíre taught that fatigue sneaks up on you and that when you are fatigued your decision making ability is impaired. Then they ask you to make a decision about your fatigue at a point at which if you were fatigued youíd be unfit to make sound decisions. Makes perfect sense!

N311JB
01-10-2018, 05:39 AM
We have 4 days that touch every hour on the the 24 clock. Think about that. If you're not fatigued, you're lying or relying on the other guy to stay awake.



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