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View Full Version : Any 117 experts here?


oldcarpilot
01-13-2018, 07:10 AM
Trying to make sure I'm correct or not.

You are required to have a min of 10hrs rest (8hrs sleep opportunity) before beginning any FDP. Unless assigned before your airplane hits the chocks your FDP ends when you hit the chocks and there is no longer intention for the airplane to move. Therefor if they have not assigned you anything before you hit the chocks your FDP ends and you now need the required rest.?

I can't find an exact answer to this. Anyone know where to find one?

Thanks!


ELAC321
01-13-2018, 07:13 AM
FAA issued a letter of interpretation on this back when 117 started. I believe you could be assigned something after block in +15min or something like that.

Rama
01-13-2018, 08:19 AM
Alpa has some good info on 117 online, not sure if they have the particular answer you are looking for.


IDIOTPILOT
01-13-2018, 08:22 AM
The FAA uses the term “affirmative intent”. If there’s any hint of wanting to assign you something after, you can be. This leaves a lot open depending on your CBA and work rules. Pretty much the FAA doesn’t seem to care as long as the additional flights fit within limits and you sign fit for duty.

oldcarpilot
01-13-2018, 08:32 AM
This is all I can find that addresses it...

(e) No certificate holder may schedule and no flightcrew member may accept an assignment for any reserve or flight duty period unless the flightcrew member is given a rest period of at least 10 consecutive hours immediately before beginning the reserve or flight duty period measured from the time the flightcrew member is released from duty. The 10 hour rest period must provide the flightcrew member with a minimum of 8 uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity.

Flight duty period (FDP)
means a period that begins when a flightcrew member is required to report for duty with the intention of conducting a flight, a series of flights, or positioning or ferrying flights, and ends when the aircraft is parked after the last flight and there is no intention for further aircraft movement by the same flightcrew member. A flight duty period includes the duties performed by the flightcrew member on behalf of the certificate holder that occur before a flight segment or between flight segments without a required intervening rest period. Examples of tasks that are part of the flight duty period include deadhead transportation, training conducted in an aircraft or flight simulator, and airport/standby reserve, if the above tasks occur before a flight segment or between flight segments without an intervening required rest period.

IDIOTPILOT
01-13-2018, 08:37 AM
Look at some of the letter of interpretation from the FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Tutt%20-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357%20-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Wykoff%20&%20Mullen-ALPA%20-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

SEPfield
01-13-2018, 02:38 PM
Part 117 defines an PDP as "a period that begins when a flightcrew member is required to report for duty with the intention of conducting a flight, a series of flights, or positioning or ferrying flights, and ends when the aircraft is parked after the last flight and there is no intention for further aircraft movement by the same flightcrew member"
The PAA has previously stated that "the number of flight segments in an PDP can be changed after an PDP begins.?'

In a recently-issued interpretation, the PAA stated that the termination of an PDP requires "an affirmative intent for no further aircraft movement.,,4 The PAA elaborated that:

This affirmative intent is lacking when the certificate holder is unsure whether there will be another flight or further aircraft movement. As a result, if the certificate holder intends or may intend to use the flightcrew member for another flight or further aicrcraft movement, the certificate holder may do so by holding the pilot on duty with the PDP clock running, making necessary adjustments based on any assignments to ensure that the pertinent PDP limits are not violated.'


So basically, until you are officially ďoff dutyĒ the airlines can assign you additional flying IAW your specific airline CBA.

tom11011
01-13-2018, 02:56 PM
The decision by your company to extend you has to be made prior to the end of your FDP. The notification obviously follows later.

SEPfield
01-13-2018, 06:39 PM
The decision by your company to extend you has to be made prior to the end of your FDP. The notification obviously follows later.

More accurately. The decision to NOT fly you needs to be made before the end of your duty period.

For example. Your FDP ends when you set the brake, but your Duty period ends 15 min after the brake is set. The company can still call you within that 15 min and assign you additional flying as long as you do not exceed the FAR 117 limits, and your FDP clock keeps going.

WhiskeyDelta
01-13-2018, 07:41 PM
More accurately. The decision to NOT fly you needs to be made before the end of your duty period.



For example. Your FDP ends when you set the brake, but your Duty period ends 15 min after the brake is set. The company can still call you within that 15 min and assign you additional flying as long as you do not exceed the FAR 117 limits, and your FDP clock keeps going.


I think youíre conflating FDP with contractual duty. FDP ends the moment the brake is set after the last working leg and you have not been notified of additional flying. There is nothing in 117 or any interpretation that says a certificate holder can assign more flying without another 10 hours of rest once an FDP has ended. This 15 minute window any company can use to assign more flying youíre talking about doesnít exist in 117.

WhiskeyDelta
01-13-2018, 07:53 PM
Trying to make sure I'm correct or not.



You are required to have a min of 10hrs rest (8hrs sleep opportunity) before beginning any FDP. Unless assigned before your airplane hits the chocks your FDP ends when you hit the chocks and there is no longer intention for the airplane to move. Therefor if they have not assigned you anything before you hit the chocks your FDP ends and you now need the required rest.?



I can't find an exact answer to this. Anyone know where to find one?



Thanks!


You are correct. Itís cut and dry. Once the brake is set and if you have not been notified of any additional flying, your FDP is over and you need 10 hours minimum of rest before starting another FDP. One key thing is you have to be notified prior to brakes set. It canít be assigned and then get the notification post setting of the brakes.

CBreezy
01-13-2018, 09:51 PM
I think youíre conflating FDP with contractual duty. FDP ends the moment the brake is set after the last working leg and you have not been notified of additional flying. There is nothing in 117 or any interpretation that says a certificate holder can assign more flying without another 10 hours of rest once an FDP has ended. This 15 minute window any company can use to assign more flying youíre talking about doesnít exist in 117.

This isn't true. According to a 2014 interpretation:.

Scenario 1
A pilot has operated a single round trip (twoflights) from his/her base. Upon blocking in from the last flight the pilot the pilot goes out to lunch. While at lunch the pilot, using his/her mobile device, identifies an open trip that he/she would like to pick up. The open trip report time is two hours after the previous flight blocked in. The open trip would be completed within the FDP time allowed by Table Bfor un-augmented operations using the original report time from earlier in the day. The pilot certifies that he/she isfit for duty. Can the pilot fly the open trip at his/her request?

Yes, the pilot may fly the open trip at his/her request. In a recent interpretation, the FAA clarified that "if a certificate holder does not have an affirmative intent for no further aircraft movement at the conclusion of a flightcrew member' s last-scheduled segment, then that flightcrew member's FDP has not ended. Until the FDP ends, the certificate holder can assign the flightcrew member additional flight segments as long as the flightcrew member's FDP does not exceed the pertinent FDP limits of part 117. In
your scenario, the flightcrew member went to lunch after the first round trip. For purposes of this interpretation, we will presume that the flightcrew member's FDP has not ended and, therefore, the flightcrew member's FDP clock continues to run at that point. Therefore, since you stated that the open trip could be completed within the FDP limits using the original report time and that the pilot would certify that he/she is fit for duty, the flightcrew member could fly the open trip. This would be the case whether the certificate holder assigned a flight or whether the flightcrew member asked for the assignment.

WhiskeyDelta
01-14-2018, 03:54 AM
This isn't true. According to a 2014 interpretation:.



Scenario 1

A pilot has operated a single round trip (twoflights) from his/her base. Upon blocking in from the last flight the pilot the pilot goes out to lunch. While at lunch the pilot, using his/her mobile device, identifies an open trip that he/she would like to pick up. The open trip report time is two hours after the previous flight blocked in. The open trip would be completed within the FDP time allowed by Table Bfor un-augmented operations using the original report time from earlier in the day. The pilot certifies that he/she isfit for duty. Can the pilot fly the open trip at his/her request?



Yes, the pilot may fly the open trip at his/her request. In a recent interpretation, the FAA clarified that "if a certificate holder does not have an affirmative intent for no further aircraft movement at the conclusion of a flightcrew member' s last-scheduled segment, then that flightcrew member's FDP has not ended. Until the FDP ends, the certificate holder can assign the flightcrew member additional flight segments as long as the flightcrew member's FDP does not exceed the pertinent FDP limits of part 117. In

your scenario, the flightcrew member went to lunch after the first round trip. For purposes of this interpretation, we will presume that the flightcrew member's FDP has not ended and, therefore, the flightcrew member's FDP clock continues to run at that point. Therefore, since you stated that the open trip could be completed within the FDP limits using the original report time and that the pilot would certify that he/she is fit for duty, the flightcrew member could fly the open trip. This would be the case whether the certificate holder assigned a flight or whether the flightcrew member asked for the assignment.


This is voluntary pick-up of extra flying. The certificate holder cannot at their discretion add more flying in the above scenario. The OP was asking about being assigned more flying from his company. They cannot call him while heís driving home and say ďOh, by the way, your FDP isnít over. Go back to the airport for another turn.Ē

Here's Delta ALPA's take as of last year:

ďFlight Duty Period (FDP) Ė 117.13
∑ Begins when you report for duty with the intent to fly.
∑ Ends when the parking brake is set after the last flying segment with no further expectation to fly. [Understanding when an FDP ends is CRITICAL because if you accept additional flying after block-in without the required 10 hour prospective rest you are violating the FARs.]Ē

GogglesPisano
01-14-2018, 04:03 AM
Whiskey is correct. Once you block-in with no further expectation of flying, you need 10hrs rest before your next FDP/RAP.

IDIOTPILOT
01-14-2018, 04:39 AM
“Scenario 2
A pilot (Captain) is scheduled to end the day with a company deadhead back to his/her base. Upon blocking infrom theflight that he/she operated two hours later he/she
reports to the gate for the deadhead flight. The pilot learns that the Captain scheduled to operate the deadhead has called in sick. At this time the pilot asks to operate the deadheadflight (qualified to do so). If the pilot operates the flight it is still within Table B limits using the original report time that the pilot started with earlier in the day. The
pilot certifies that he/she is fit for duty. Can the pilot operate this flight at his/her request?
Scenario 3:
Is a repeat of scenario two. In this case the carrier has requested that the pilot operate flight. The pilot agrees and certifies that he/she is fit for duty. Can the pilot operate this flight at the carrier's request?
Yes, the pilot would be able to operate the flight at his/her request or as scheduled by the certificate holder. As in Scenario #1, the controlling issue is whether any additional
flight assignments (by the certificate holder or at the request of a flightcrew member) can be operated within the flight time and FDP limits, using the original report time and making the necessary adjustments for changes in the number of segments. In another recent interpretation, the FAA elaborated that "if the certificate holder intends or may intend to use the flightcrew member for another flight or further aircraft movement, the certificate holder may do so by holding the pilot on duty with the FDP clock running, making necessary adjustments based on any assignments to ensure that the pertinent FDP limits are not violated.") In this case involving a deadhead, so long as the FDP clock is considered running from the original report time, the additional flying falls within the applicable flight time and FDP limits and the ß 117.5 fitness for duty certification is made, the flightcrew member would be able to operate the flight in either scenario.“


FAA in this scenario have thrown affirmative intent on the company, not the pilot’s thinking of affirmative intent at any given time. As far as I can tell, there’s been no interpretation of needing to be notified that there’s not affirmative intent to not stop your FDP prior to brake set.

rickair7777
01-14-2018, 08:28 AM
This is voluntary pick-up of extra flying. The certificate holder cannot at their discretion add more flying in the above scenario. The OP was asking about being assigned more flying from his company. They cannot call him while he’s driving home and say “Oh, by the way, your FDP isn’t over. Go back to the airport for another turn.”




What this ultimately comes down to is can they notify you?

If you're driving home, the answer is no, unless they hold you on a RAP, which would be non-rest, which would push your availability tomorrow to the right. If you're not on a RAP, why on earth would you answer the damn phone???

If they catch you in the jetway, then that comes down to company policy/CBA.

The FAA never intended that you would suddenly and automatically, upon block-in, enter rest from which there would be no return for ten+ hours.

People often confuse 117 with a "pilot QOL protection act". It's not that, not by any means. For example, they company can put you on a three-leg, 28 hour deadhead to timbukthree following a 14 hour duty, 9 hour block flying day. Suck? Yes. Illegal? No. The FAA and 117 doesn't care and has ZERO bearing on what happens to you AFTER 121 flying is done. The company has unlimited discretion to abuse you then, and you don't even have the systemic protections of a fatigue call. The company is of course obligated to give the required rest before your next 121 flight.

QOL comes from your contract, not 117.

rickair7777
01-14-2018, 08:32 AM
Whiskey is correct. Once you block-in with no further expectation of flying, you need 10hrs rest before your next FDP/RAP.


Further expectation of flying is nebulous. Whose expectation?

If you want to go home, you would presumably not expect to fly.

If you want to pick up some OT, then you would expect to fly.

If you didn't plan to fly more, you're not up to it, and they junior man you, then call in fatigued.

The solution to this CBA language prohibiting junior man at the end of a trip. Don't like getting reflowed mid-trp? Then get CBA language for that...

WhiskeyDelta
01-14-2018, 08:39 AM
What this ultimately comes down to is can they notify you?

If you're driving home, the answer is no, unless they hold you on a RAP, which would be non-rest, which would push your availability tomorrow to the right. If you're not on a RAP, why on earth would you answer the damn phone???

If they catch you in the jetway, then that comes down to company policy/CBA.

The FAA never intended that you would suddenly and automatically, upon block-in, enter rest from which there would be no return for ten+ hours.

People often confuse 117 with a "pilot QOL protection act". It's not that, not by any means. For example, they company can put you on a three-leg, 28 hour deadhead to timbukthree following a 14 hour duty, 9 hour block flying day. Suck? Yes. Illegal? No. The FAA and 117 doesn't care and has ZERO bearing on what happens to you AFTER 121 flying is done. The company has unlimited discretion to abuse you then, and you don't even have the systemic protections of a fatigue call. The company is of course obligated to give the required rest before your next 121 flight.

QOL comes from your contract, not 117.


DALPA has told us that this scenario is a flat out violation of 117. According to them, even your jetway example isnít legal.

The bottom line here is that notification of additional flying has to be given prior to the brakes being set. At that moment the expectation to fly is over and, therefore, another 10 hour rest period must occur before anything flying.

We have open time *****s at Delta. They will do anything to get more straight or premium pay. Donít you think if your line of thinking was correct that they would be pushing ALPA to correct their stance?

So far, nothing in this thread has convinced me that ALPA is wrong. This doesnít pass the sniff test to me. As always, Iíll admit when Iím wrong but Iím not there just yet.

GogglesPisano
01-14-2018, 10:03 AM
Further expectation of flying is nebulous. Whose expectation?



Further expectation is whatever is printed on your rotation/pairing/trip ..

ELAC321
01-14-2018, 10:40 AM
DALPA has told us that this scenario is a flat out violation of 117. According to them, even your jetway example isnít legal.

The bottom line here is that notification of additional flying has to be given prior to the brakes being set. At that moment the expectation to fly is over and, therefore, another 10 hour rest period must occur before anything flying.

We have open time *****s at Delta. They will do anything to get more straight or premium pay. Donít you think if your line of thinking was correct that they would be pushing ALPA to correct their stance?

So far, nothing in this thread has convinced me that ALPA is wrong. This doesnít pass the sniff test to me. As always, Iíll admit when Iím wrong but Iím not there just yet.

Maybe you should read those letter of interpretations. Mainly the 1st one posted.

CBreezy
01-14-2018, 11:15 AM
DALPA has told us that this scenario is a flat out violation of 117. According to them, even your jetway example isnít legal.

The bottom line here is that notification of additional flying has to be given prior to the brakes being set. At that moment the expectation to fly is over and, therefore, another 10 hour rest period must occur before anything flying.

We have open time *****s at Delta. They will do anything to get more straight or premium pay. Donít you think if your line of thinking was correct that they would be pushing ALPA to correct their stance?

So far, nothing in this thread has convinced me that ALPA is wrong. This doesnít pass the sniff test to me. As always, Iíll admit when Iím wrong but Iím not there just yet.

Then DALPA is wrong. The letter is a legal interpretation from the FAA. It's settled and no matter what DALPA says, the FAA LOI takes precedence.

From the LOI:if the certificate holder intends or may intend to use the flightcrew member for another flight or further aircraft movement, the certificate holder may do so by holding the pilot on duty with the FDP clock running, making necessary adjustments based on any assignments to ensure that the pertinent FDP limits are not violated. If he is met at the gate or told at the DH at his flight that he is now operating it, outside of any CBA restrictions, this is 100% legal. Not liking it and not being legal are different things

IDIOTPILOT
01-14-2018, 12:40 PM
DALPA has told us that this scenario is a flat out violation of 117. According to them, even your jetway example isnít legal.

This was what a lot of companies and unions were thinking at the time 117 came out. The letters of interpretation came out a few months after 117 went into effect and many companies now routinely add legs both voluntarily and involuntary after scheduled block in.

Your CBA may have language addressing what they consider ďaffirmative intentĒ. It may even address it indirectly. That changes the scenario and a lot of contracts donít fit neatly into how 117 is written.

WhiskeyDelta
01-14-2018, 06:09 PM
Then DALPA is wrong. The letter is a legal interpretation from the FAA. It's settled and no matter what DALPA says, the FAA LOI takes precedence.



From the LOI:if the certificate holder intends or may intend to use the flightcrew member for another flight or further aircraft movement, the certificate holder may do so by holding the pilot on duty with the FDP clock running, making necessary adjustments based on any assignments to ensure that the pertinent FDP limits are not violated. If he is met at the gate or told at the DH at his flight that he is now operating it, outside of any CBA restrictions, this is 100% legal. Not liking it and not being legal are different things


Ok, letís play this out a little more. How do I know, as a 121 pilot, when my FDP is over? 1 hour after schedule FDP ends? 2, 3, 4?

There appears to be an assumption that FDP will never end except when a pilot reaches his/her max potential FDP.

Note: read the above without regard to any labor contractual language. Thatís irrelevant here.

Also, with regard to the assignment to fly a scheduled DH leg, when was the decision made by the company to assign the pilot to work it? Before the FDP originally ended or after the last working leg and just before the DH was supposed to leave? How do pilots receive affirmative intent for no further flying? Should I always be ready to fly beyond my scheduled FDP (assuming no delays and no labor protections)?

ELAC321
01-14-2018, 06:36 PM
Ok, letís play this out a little more. How do I know, as a 121 pilot, when my FDP is over? 1 hour after schedule FDP ends? 2, 3, 4?

There appears to be an assumption that FDP will never end except when a pilot reaches his/her max potential FDP.

Note: read the above without regard to any labor contractual language. Thatís irrelevant here.

Also, with regard to the assignment to fly a scheduled DH leg, when was the decision made by the company to assign the pilot to work it? Before the FDP originally ended or after the last working leg and just before the DH was supposed to leave? How do pilots receive affirmative intent for no further flying? Should I always be ready to fly beyond my scheduled FDP (assuming no delays and no labor protections)?

Did you not read the LOI? Itís pretty clear..

CBreezy
01-14-2018, 06:43 PM
Ok, letís play this out a little more. How do I know, as a 121 pilot, when my FDP is over? 1 hour after schedule FDP ends? 2, 3, 4?

There appears to be an assumption that FDP will never end except when a pilot reaches his/her max potential FDP.

Note: read the above without regard to any labor contractual language. Thatís irrelevant here.

Also, with regard to the assignment to fly a scheduled DH leg, when was the decision made by the company to assign the pilot to work it? Before the FDP originally ended or after the last working leg and just before the DH was supposed to leave? How do pilots receive affirmative intent for no further flying? Should I always be ready to fly beyond my scheduled FDP (assuming no delays and no labor protections)?

According to the LOIs I've read, I'll do my best to answer the questions. Outside of a contract, other than being affirmatively being "released to rest" yes, the company can call you back to the airport and have you operate a flight within a FDP. They can hold you on duty until the end of your FDP. There isn't really any clarification whether affirmative intent is taking company scheduled transportation to the hotel. It is intentionally left vague and very much favors the company.

Regarding the DH leg, when the decision is made is irrelevant. As long as you are still on duty, and as you are not "in rest," the company can assign you to fly until your FDP clock expires. Theoretically, they could cancel your DH reservation or even your hotel room reservation and recall you to the airport to operate as many flights as fit within the FDP. Lastly, I believe the FAA expects you to show up to ever duty period fully rested to operate within your max FDP. And yes, I'm disappointed that is the interpretation that used.

IDIOTPILOT
01-15-2018, 06:16 AM
Lastly, I believe the FAA expects you to show up to ever duty period fully rested to operate within your max FDP. And yes, I'm disappointed that is the interpretation that used.

Thatís actually not true either. See below.

ďThe fligbtorew member's responsibility is to report sufficiently rested for the FDP that was known and assigned, not the entire length of the FDP that could have been assigned.Ē

http://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=thq0FXKlHJE%3d&tabid=9042

CBreezy
01-15-2018, 11:40 AM
Thatís actually not true either. See below.

ďThe fligbtorew member's responsibility is to report sufficiently rested for the FDP that was known and assigned, not the entire length of the FDP that could have been assigned.Ē

http://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=thq0FXKlHJE%3d&tabid=9042

Well, I missed that one.

wxman1959
01-16-2018, 05:29 AM
I believe that while the FCM is still on duty, the airline may assign more flights. Once the FCM has been released into a rest period is when they may not request the pilot to fly until the rest period has been concluded.
I believe that the airline may even request the pilot to remain at the airport to be available to receive additional flights, essentially "Airport Standby", the FDP clock will keep running until released from ASB into rest or at the end of all flights assigned to the FCM while on ASB.

Obviouslly, when any additional flights are assigned the limitations in 117.11 (Table A), 117.13 (Table B), cumulative limitations in 117.23 must still be observed, and the FCM must still afirm that he/she is fit for duty with each flight 117.5.

With Volunteer Flying a FCM may do so even if they have been released into a rest period. If the additional flight(s) will occur before 10 hours of rest have been taken by the FCM, the extra flights are just part of the previously ended FDP, where the same re-calculations for 117.11, 117.13 117.23 must still be done and 117.5 must be complied with. The difference here is that the Airline may not request the FCM to accept the addional flight(s), but the airline does not have to accept the FCM request for the extra flying.

Obviously, the OpSpecs may differ on such procedures, and any Union agreement may also additional constraints.

I have attached links for FAA LOI that may be helpful.

http://far117understanding.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/anderson-2016-legal-interpretation.pdf

http://far117understanding.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/schnaubelt-2017-legal-interpretation.pdf

FL370esq
01-18-2018, 09:10 AM
Look at some of the letter of interpretation from the FAA.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Tutt%20-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Anderson-Teamsters357%20-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/Wykoff%20&%20Mullen-ALPA%20-%20(2014)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

Interesting that Charlie Tutt uses his personal address rather than his 4th floor address on the Delta Campus.

Booker
01-18-2018, 05:18 PM
Interesting that Charlie Tutt uses his personal address rather than his 4th floor address on the Delta Campus.

It's been a while since I worked for SureJet, but wasn't 990 Toffie the A-Tech Center?

FL370esq
01-19-2018, 05:53 AM
It's been a while since I worked for SureJet, but wasn't 990 Toffie the A-Tech Center?

I thought it was the LaQuinta across from Malone's. Maybe it is a MailBoxes, etc?? 😁
Pretty sure his 4th floor office is on Delta Boulevard.

Happyflyer
01-21-2018, 08:27 AM
According to the LOIs I've read, I'll do my best to answer the questions. Outside of a contract, other than being affirmatively being "released to rest" yes, the company can call you back to the airport and have you operate a flight within a FDP. They can hold you on duty until the end of your FDP. There isn't really any clarification whether affirmative intent is taking company scheduled transportation to the hotel. It is intentionally left vague and very much favors the company.

Regarding the DH leg, when the decision is made is irrelevant. As long as you are still on duty, and as you are not "in rest," the company can assign you to fly until your FDP clock expires. Theoretically, they could cancel your DH reservation or even your hotel room reservation and recall you to the airport to operate as many flights as fit within the FDP. Lastly, I believe the FAA expects you to show up to ever duty period fully rested to operate within your max FDP. And yes, I'm disappointed that is the interpretation that used.

So your legal to be "held" on duty and dink a beer at the same time?

"When I opened the beer I was legally off duty, when my phone rang I was legally on duty" since the operator had affirmative intent of assigning additional flying after my previous "last" leg blocked in with no further intention of flying.

How can the FAA can expect you to operate to your max FDP since it's defined in Table B and changes with legs that are added after block in with affirmative intent of additional flying?

rickair7777
01-21-2018, 09:02 AM
The best way to get your head around this is to accept the fact that the FAA does not care AT ALL about your personal rest, health, schedule, or convenience... they do not have a mandate to interfere in the free labor market.

They only thing they do care about is that you have the legally specified period free of duty with a rest opportunity prior to flying pax.

There's no biological imperative that would prevent you from returning and finishing out a legal FDP after you think/hope you're done for the day.

That could be a work rules debate, but there's no science that says you can't safely work more. By the same token, the FAA doesn't care if you have a beer on your DHD, as long as you're done flying for the day.

Happyflyer
01-21-2018, 08:34 PM
That's not the offense, no one expects them to care about labor relations. What is offensive is how plain English passed into law by 117 can be twisted via creative LOI. They turn it into what they want it to be instead of explaining what it says.

WhiskeyDelta
01-22-2018, 09:02 AM
That's not the offense, no one expects them to care about labor relations. What is offensive is how plain English passed into law by 117 can be twisted via creative LOI. They turn it into what they want it to be instead of explaining what it says.


I agree with this.

For those that care, Iíve emailed my Scheduling chair and it was explained that Delta and ALPA have agreed not to use the Tutt interpretation. In that sense, what DALPA said about it being illegal to accept a continuation of an FDP after the brakes are set is in fact true if you donít apply the Tutt interpretation.

joepilot
01-26-2018, 07:44 AM
What this ultimately comes down to is can they notify you?

If you're driving home, the answer is no, unless they hold you on a RAP, which would be non-rest, which would push your availability tomorrow to the right. If you're not on a RAP, why on earth would you answer the damn phone???

If they catch you in the jetway, then that comes down to company policy/CBA.

The FAA never intended that you would suddenly and automatically, upon block-in, enter rest from which there would be no return for ten+ hours.

People often confuse 117 with a "pilot QOL protection act". It's not that, not by any means. For example, they company can put you on a three-leg, 28 hour deadhead to timbukthree following a 14 hour duty, 9 hour block flying day. Suck? Yes. Illegal? No. The FAA and 117 doesn't care and has ZERO bearing on what happens to you AFTER 121 flying is done. The company has unlimited discretion to abuse you then, and you don't even have the systemic protections of a fatigue call. The company is of course obligated to give the required rest before your next 121 flight.

QOL comes from your contract, not 117.

Hi Rick.

This is addressing only the driving home scenario.

A reserve at many airlines would not be on a rest period while driving home. Neither would he be on duty, but he would be required to be on call.

If called when driving home, depending on the cell phone laws in his area, he would be expected to call back within an undefined reasonable period to accept an assignment. This assignment would need to allow a ten hour prospective rest period prior to report time. He could not be called back to the airport to take another assignment.

If you are commuting by air, you would generally be required to inform the scheduler of when you would be out of contact, just like any other time during your reserve period when you know you will not be reachable.

Joe

rickair7777
01-26-2018, 08:52 AM
Hi Rick.

This is addressing only the driving home scenario.

A reserve at many airlines would not be on a rest period while driving home. Neither would he be on duty, but he would be required to be on call.

If called when driving home, depending on the cell phone laws in his area, he would be expected to call back within an undefined reasonable period to accept an assignment. This assignment would need to allow a ten hour prospective rest period prior to report time. He could not be called back to the airport to take another assignment.

If you are commuting by air, you would generally be required to inform the scheduler of when you would be out of contact, just like any other time during your reserve period when you know you will not be reachable.

Joe

That's all work rules. Some companies may keep you on reserve (and thus duty, not rest) following a trip. In that case they can require a call-back within whatever time is specified.

State traffic laws are not the companies or the FAA's problem by any stretch, if you need to call them back, use voice-activated blue-tooth or take the next exit and pull over.

If they release you to rest, then you do NOT have to call them back, since you cannot have a duty to the company during rest. Depending on work rules, if they can get hold of you, they can legally per the FAA interpretation require you to come back and work during your remaining legal FDP... that was settled by the FAA general counsel.

Bottom line, if the company wants your time after duty to count as rest they need to leave you alone, and cannot place under a duty to be notifiable. But if they do notify you somehow, they can legally reel you back in. Again, this is FARs, not work rules. Remember the FAA never, ever cares what happens to you AFTER 121 flying. They only care what came before. Same with compensatory rest, which people mistakenly thought HAD to happen within such and such time... not true, if it didn't happen within the specified time frame then you're not legal for 121 flying, but you can still deadhead all over the planet, attend training, mop floors, whatever.

joepilot
01-27-2018, 01:37 PM
At my house a reserve is never released to rest until he is given another assignment. Even if his flight duty period has exceeded max, he is not relieved of the duty to answer his phone for his next assignment. His next assignment determines his ten hour prospective FAA rest period, during which he is not required to answer the phone.

So, he may be driving home, and get a call telling him that he has a trip reporting to the airport in 15 hours, say report at noon. He could then turn off his phone and have a beer. He would then start his FAA ten hours rest period at 02:00.

Joe