Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Trans States Emergency Meeting


ScaryKite
03-27-2007, 02:19 PM
I heard that trans states management recently held an emergency meeting to discuss their little attrition and staffing problems. Anyone herd any thing about this?


POPA
03-27-2007, 02:21 PM
Yeah.
They have no idea what to do about hiring new FOs.
Street captains WILL be hired come summertime. PM me if you want to know who I heard that from.

DMEarc
03-27-2007, 02:27 PM
Yeah.
They have no idea what to do about hiring new FOs.

Whats wrong? All these guys keep washing out of training?


ScaryKite
03-27-2007, 02:33 PM
trans states has had a rep for hiring some low time guys, but they do not budge at all for performance. Its actually a good way to hire because the difference between 500 hours and 1500 hours could be a simple difference of how many landings you have saved in the pattern. Until there is quite a bit of IFR cross country experience, most instructing is just adding hours into your logbook. So I think its a relatively good thing to hire people and give them a shot, if they cant cut it, so be it. I definatley think TSAs training was very thorough and fair. If you didnt make it, probably a good thing. Thats one thing I will give TSA props for is the training department, most every captain I flew with was very knowledgeable, professional with the door open, and all in all a damn good pilot.

DMEarc
03-27-2007, 02:36 PM
Tell them to start paying hotels in training and some people might think about sending a resume...not to mention let up on the training.

You know a lot of guys don't want to fail out of training on their first 121 gig, right?

ScaryKite
03-27-2007, 02:44 PM
Tell them to start paying hotels in training and some people might think about sending a resume...not to mention let up on the training.

You know a lot of guys don't want to fail out of training on their first 121 gig, right?


very true, I knew TSA had a tough training department before I went there, but I was up for a challenge. I do agree with you though, no one wants to fail, of the guys that were in our class that busted, it really messed them up. One guy called back XJEt and Airwhiskey and told them he was now availiable to interview, explained his TSA situation and they said thanks but no thanks. Kind of sucks. THey are paying for hotels in training now, as well as 400 dollars a week on top of the 60 hr/month guarantee. We'll see what happens!

BoilerUP
03-27-2007, 02:57 PM
Street captains WILL be hired come summertime. PM me if you want to know who I heard that from.

So...what about those FOs hired in late spring 2004? Are they going to upgrade?

ScaryKite
03-27-2007, 03:06 PM
So...what about those FOs hired in late spring 2004? Are they going to upgrade?


most of them are gone!

diamnd15
03-27-2007, 03:11 PM
i was in the jan class, did everything up to the oral and passed. i quit in feburary, and was about number 32 to quit that month. about 5 didnt make it in my class and a few found other places to go. training is tough but if you just study and listen during class it is not that bad.

BoilerUP
03-27-2007, 03:20 PM
most of them are gone!

Yeah...but I know one or two that aren't.

How close are the May-July 2004 hires to upgrade?

ScaryKite
03-27-2007, 03:38 PM
I know a few people that have just upgraded. PM if you want names. I assume you went to purdue, I know that CC upgraded, others from purdue I dont know about.

texaspilot76
03-27-2007, 03:46 PM
They don't put you up during training? I thought all airlines did.

reevesofskyking
03-27-2007, 04:19 PM
As scary said,
they are starting to give you some cash on top of your 60 hours for hotels around the area.
I heard from a kid in the march class they had just started doing that.
I know the dec class did not get that nor did the jan class.

coldpilot
03-27-2007, 04:57 PM
Lower mins. Street captains. Emergency meeting. I'm glad I started asking questions about this company before I jumped into anything.

reevesofskyking
03-27-2007, 05:50 PM
I would say it this point you know as much about it as we do

ScaryKite
03-27-2007, 05:53 PM
Lower mins. Street captains. Emergency meeting. I'm glad I started asking questions about this company before I jumped into anything.

i'll give you some free advice, DONT PAY ATTENTION to stuff you read on airlinepilotcentral.com, flightinfo.com or what have you. Do yourself a favor and do some real research on these companies. Most of the stuff on these forums are BS opionions, now they have to originate from some source so the general trends of each airline are kind of true, but most of this stuff is made up rumors, or flaimbait just to keep our boring lives interesting while we are on overnights with slam clickers or bored out of our minds on airport reserve. Instead of relying on these sites, go out and ask pilots that fly for these companies questions. Go to job fairs and ask recruiters questions, granted they will feed you a bunch of BS, but dont be afraid to ask quesitons, dont be rude or start a debate but ask questions. Then compile all your data and choose what airline will work best for your lifestyle, dont chase an upgrade, you will be disappointed! Be patient. just my 2 cents

AirWillie
03-27-2007, 07:55 PM
As far as training, call me stupid but doesn't someone who has been through training, even if failed through it, have a better chance the 2nd time than street hires?

Koolaidman
03-28-2007, 12:32 AM
TSA is used to running paper thin, I don't get what all of the fuss is about? How many pilots are currently flying there? For example, how many FO's in STL? When I was there, they were short with around 120 FO's if I remember correctly?

POPA
03-28-2007, 04:48 AM
Wow, what a great point; I never looked at it that way.
I guess the fact that you worked here a year ago DOES make you better qualified to judge the situation than those of us who currently fly Hulas's line.

Koolaidman
03-28-2007, 10:48 AM
I THINK they were calling CA's to fly the right seat last year??? So how many FO's are there in St. Louis? Again, the airline was run with around 5 reserves in St. Louis when things got tight and not many flights were cancelled. I am sure the majority of you guys will get tired of it and leave too.

reevesofskyking
03-28-2007, 03:36 PM
I THINK they were calling CA's to fly the right seat last year??? So how many FO's are there in St. Louis? Again, the airline was run with around 5 reserves in St. Louis when things got tight and not many flights were cancelled. I am sure the majority of you guys will get tired of it and leave too.

I bid 116 for april
and when I talked to scheduling the other day, she said that she had to have 11 for coverage, and she only rounded up 8 or 9

and they moved 20 out of ric for april, and think that brings the count somwhere between 120 and 130 FO's in STL

I just looked and it is showing 121 Fo's for april
dont know how many of them have quit though

texaspilot76
03-28-2007, 03:44 PM
Why would they hire street captains if they have FO's that have ATP minimums?

reevesofskyking
03-28-2007, 03:50 PM
Why would they hire street captains if they have FO's that have ATP minimums?

From what I have read they are going to still maintain the 3000 total time to upgrade.

that was on the latest memo

I am not real sure what they are going to do, and I am not sure they know they know what they are going to do

ScaryKite
03-28-2007, 05:11 PM
Why would they hire street captains if they have FO's that have ATP minimums?


there is this thing called....ahh jeeze..... whats that one thing......oh yeah.....INSURANCE. Hulas will always look for the Cheapest insurance, they look for the cheapest everything. Fat Bastard even gloats about saving pennies on garbage bags, but furloughing 50 people just to replace them 2 months later and the 100s that have quit. Thats ok, as long as your using your HEFTY coupons. What a bunch of tards. A junior high business class could run that place better than that.


Google the term Hulas Kanodia and the first target is "Low Costs as a Way of Life" Its that million dollar bridge to pick up a quarter thats killing them.

http://www.atwonline.com/channels/airlineFocus/article.html?articleID=1149

If this is how they think about trash bags or Vendor B, how do you think they care about their pilots, the same way, ********** trash. I am rid of TSA forever and I hope they fall apart this summer and every pilot at TSA moves on to bigger and better things.

Shrek
03-29-2007, 05:50 AM
The best thing about being a TSA pilot is this - your NEXT job will be better GUARANTEED.

ryane946
03-29-2007, 08:12 AM
trans states has had a rep for hiring some low time guys, but they do not budge at all for performance. Its actually a good way to hire because the difference between 500 hours and 1500 hours could be a simple difference of how many landings you have saved in the pattern. Until there is quite a bit of IFR cross country experience, most instructing is just adding hours into your logbook. So I think its a relatively good thing to hire people and give them a shot, if they cant cut it, so be it. I definatley think TSAs training was very thorough and fair. If you didnt make it, probably a good thing. Thats one thing I will give TSA props for is the training department, most every captain I flew with was very knowledgeable, professional with the door open, and all in all a damn good pilot.

That was an excellent post. It is generally accepted that more experience = better pilot. Personally, I see no difference between 1000/100 and 500/100 if the trainee can pass a tough training course.

We complain about the degrading of our industry all the time. But if Trans States budges at all on the quality of their training, we are going to have more boneheads flying in our profession. More and more people are trying to become pilots without college degrees :eek: . Next thing you know there could be high school dropouts flying these planes. Training needs to be tough. If you can pass a tough, respectable training course, we shouldn't care so much about experience. Now if someone is lowering their mins and lowering their standards, we are going to have a problem, and nothing will be done about it until we have a crash that kills people!!!!

org1
03-29-2007, 08:37 AM
[/b] of their training, we are going to have more boneheads flying in our profession. More and more people are trying to become pilots without college degrees :eek: . Next thing you know there could be high school dropouts flying these planes. Training needs to be tough. If you can pass a tough, respectable training course, we shouldn't care so much about experience. Now if someone is lowering their mins and lowering their standards, we are going to have a problem, and nothing will be done about it until we have a crash that kills people!!!!

If you're implying that pilots without degrees are more dangerous, I'd request that you provide a source. A degree requirement is simply a way to reduce the number of applicants...not a reliable measure of skills. People have been flying all kinds of airplanes for decades without degrees, and there are no storms of metal falling from the skies.

Absent the above requested source, do you have any personal experience backing up your implication?

About disregarding experience in favor of training, I'd like to see a source supporting that, too. Even the best training is only a foundation to build on. The building process is experience. There's more to flying than stick wiggling.

DMEarc
03-29-2007, 10:05 AM
Ryane946, boy you talk like you've got flying and this industry figured all out. You don't know jack.

You couldn't be more off base here.

I know many many excellent and sharp pilots that do not have degrees. They are more safe and more humble than many of the college grads I fly with. And before you ask, YES I have my masters.

I've just got to ask who you fly for?

Andrew_VT
03-29-2007, 10:41 AM
Lets play the "guess which forum posters have degrees and which ones don't" game!!!:)

Ellen
03-29-2007, 10:46 AM
Lets play the "guess which forum posters have degrees and which ones don't" game!!!:)

Good idea! Crazy Ellen might even play along with this one, just for fun. How about, let's play which Forum Posters have degrees but are still quite clueless.

Shrek
03-29-2007, 10:47 AM
WOW - a MASTERS even !!!!!!!

AV8ER
03-29-2007, 12:11 PM
Just call me Dr. Pilot.

Ftrooppilot
03-29-2007, 12:26 PM
. . . . .More and more people are trying to become pilots without college degrees :eek: . Next thing you know there could be high school dropouts flying these planes.. . . . .

Had 6,000 hrs before I got a degree. Now have a masters.

Son is a high school drop out - now a Capt.

Attitude, quality of training and depth of experience are the key considerations. Having a degree has nothing to do with the ability to fly an airplane.

Superpilot92
03-29-2007, 12:58 PM
I dont think if you dont have a degree you are some how not as good of a pilot. In fact I know thats not true. However if minimum flight time for hiring was higher and a degree was required for employment then more than likely pay would go up. The degree will continue to become less and less important This is just another way for MGMT to "Dumb" down the job. They can justify paying less and less if qualifications aren't important. Just my thoughts. So do you think i have a degree or not? worth 20 points!!!

Ftrooppilot
03-29-2007, 01:17 PM
. . . if minimum flight time for hiring was higher and a degree was required for employment then more than likely pay would go up. . . .

AT one time the USAF required 20/20 vision to enter pilot training. The second day of training you could almost be "deaf, dumb and blind." The 20/20 vision was a screening process. WHen demand exceeded supply they granted "waivers" and eventually approved surgical correction.

Until recently the airlines used a degree as a screening process for hiring. On day two it didn't matter a bit - you had to pass the sims and other training requirements.

Now that demand exceeds supply, the degree requirement has become "prefered" or not required.

As supply goes down, pay will go up. Look at the "pilot hiring bonus" system that is starting. Compare it to the RN shortage where some hospitals offer a $25,000 sign-on bonus if you sign a three year contract at $40.00 an hour / 40 hr week.

Market demands will determine pay.

ScaryKite
03-29-2007, 01:17 PM
That was an excellent post. It is generally accepted that more experience = better pilot. Personally, I see no difference between 1000/100 and 500/100 if the trainee can pass a tough training course.

We complain about the degrading of our industry all the time. But if Trans States budges at all on the quality of their training, we are going to have more boneheads flying in our profession. More and more people are trying to become pilots without college degrees :eek: . Next thing you know there could be high school dropouts flying these planes. Training needs to be tough. If you can pass a tough, respectable training course, we shouldn't care so much about experience. Now if someone is lowering their mins and lowering their standards, we are going to have a problem, and nothing will be done about it until we have a crash that kills people!!!!


yeah i would not agree with your education statement. I guarantee you there are bush pilots up in Alaska who dropped out of school and have never had any training past private pilot, whos skills and experience level are FAR superior to that of your average pilot.
But i do stand by my point that experience and hours are two Totally different elements. As a CFI you learned that from students, some students could jump in the plane, and nail everything you threw at them in 10 hours. Some guys couldnt even solo up into the hundreds of hours. Thats just natural ability.
There is a huge difference in experience based on what kind of flying you are doing, when i left my first CFI job, i was primarily doing instrument and commercial training, my skills and profeciency were very high, then I changed flight schools and did exclusive primary training, and my IFR skills and scan went down. I had twice as much flight time than i did 6 months ago, but i felt my piloting skills were at a lower level then, than they were 500 hours ago. Then as i started preparing for Regional interviews, i started working really hard on IFR procedures and my skill level went back up. Went through some 121 training and started feeling really good about my proficiency level. Passed my checkride finished IOE and then got on line. Thats when i started using the autopilot and Flight director all the time and skills went back down again.
But during my first few months doing a lot of flying, i felt my experience level rising and I appreciate the fact that with time comes experience and it makes me respect the experience level of those who have more than I. So yeah at the early stages of flight instructing it doesnt matter how many "hours" you have. Its what you have done in those hours.
So i do believe that a 500 hour CFI with some natural ability, and a hard work ethic, can be just as successful as a 1500 hour cfi in a 121 training environment.
But you cant compare a CFI whos been doing repeated slow flight, stalls, steep turns and crashes and dashes in the pattern, To a guy thats been flying a night freight operation, single pilot night IFR is some of the best experience you will get. From what i have learned thus far, any monkey can get in these airplanes move the controls around and push the buttons. Its an experience level that makes or breaks the pilot, what decisions can the pilot make when things are abnormal. And until you have a lot of experience, 1000 hour CFIs are not, in my opinion, qualified. Thats why you usually get put in the right seat for a few years.
A piece of paper, (especially an expensive one) dont make a pilot, its the experience hes had and what hes learned from it, and how he will apply his experience to his decision making when it counts, is what counts. Sorry to get all Tom Skerrit in Top Gun on you, but it is a good statement. Just my 2 cents.

Shrek
03-29-2007, 02:46 PM
Pretty BIG 2 cents..............

ScaryKite
03-29-2007, 04:07 PM
Pretty BIG 2 cents..............

yeat it was more like 37 cents, and a gum rapper. Thats all I can afford on this FO pay!

reevesofskyking
03-29-2007, 04:17 PM
Pretty BIG 2 cents..............

he always has been the big spender
should have seen the hookers he brung around here

JK

Koolaidman
03-29-2007, 08:04 PM
So back to the Trans States post...

130 FO's in St. Louis is normal. They won't hire street captains. Don't believe anything you hear come out of the flight managers' mouths. I like all of them and if I saw them in STL I wouldn't hesitate to say hi. However, for some reason, TSA likes to keep everything a secret. Examples, furloughs, when we bid on the XJT stuff last year, losing flying, gaining flying, hiring, flights cancelled due to pilot shortage, etc.

New FO's will continue to leave, some will stay after one year because they believe upgrade is right around the corner. I flew with a 10 year CA who was called on his day for a junior man assignment. He refused and ended up in the Chief's office. This is typical Trans States and the way they LIKE to run their airline. I guess someone feels this is the most efficient way to run things, just like the furlough into hiring last year. Mesa is the ONLY airline that juniors pilots better than TSA.

The big meeting was probably another scare tactic. It is nice not to have to worry about being furloughed for no reason anymore or worrying about having a job next month. I suggest the same thing everyone is, get out of that ... hole and enjoy the job!

SkyHigh
03-30-2007, 04:39 AM
trans states has had a rep for hiring some low time guys, but they do not budge at all for performance. Its actually a good way to hire because the difference between 500 hours and 1500 hours could be a simple difference of how many landings you have saved in the pattern. Until there is quite a bit of IFR cross country experience, most instructing is just adding hours into your logbook. So I think its a relatively good thing to hire people and give them a shot, if they cant cut it, so be it. I definatley think TSAs training was very thorough and fair. If you didnt make it, probably a good thing. Thats one thing I will give TSA props for is the training department, most every captain I flew with was very knowledgeable, professional with the door open, and all in all a damn good pilot.

You are right 1000 hours of flight instructing really is useless to an airline. The minimums are really only a way to reduce the number of applicants. It has nothing to do with pilot skills.

SkyHigh

org1
03-30-2007, 06:53 AM
I dont think if you dont have a degree you are some how not as good of a pilot. In fact I know thats not true. However if minimum flight time for hiring was higher and a degree was required for employment then more than likely pay would go up. The degree will continue to become less and less important This is just another way for MGMT to "Dumb" down the job. They can justify paying less and less if qualifications aren't important. Just my thoughts. So do you think i have a degree or not? worth 20 points!!!

Unfortunately, management doesn't base pay on qualifications. They base it on supply and demand. It's always been and always will be that way. If the day comes that they can't fill the seats without raising the pay, they'll do it, but only as much as they think they have to. On the other hand, qualifications will follow raised pay. There are lots of highly qualified guys with many thousands of hours of jet transport time on the sidelines because they won't work for a bag of peanuts and a diet coke per leg. When the pay goes up enough (it may never happen, but it's looking more favorable) some of them will be back.

Blackhawk
03-30-2007, 01:27 PM
I dont think if you dont have a degree you are some how not as good of a pilot. In fact I know thats not true. However if minimum flight time for hiring was higher and a degree was required for employment then more than likely pay would go up. The degree will continue to become less and less important This is just another way for MGMT to "Dumb" down the job. They can justify paying less and less if qualifications aren't important. Just my thoughts. So do you think i have a degree or not? worth 20 points!!!

1. One of the great misunderstandings about aviation is that pilots are paid and chosen just to fly. While flying skills and qualifications are important, they are only one of the facets of being a professional pilot- except maybe for some one being paid to fly aerobatics. A pilot is normally paid to fly an aircraft from point a to point b. Associated with this flying are other important duties, depending on the type of flying. A passenger airline pilot, for example, is in the customer service industry and is being paid to safely move people from point a to point b, and to do so in a manner that makes them want to fly your brand again. While the possession of a college degree does not automatically bestow on the recipient the tools needed to handle these "non-aviation" aviation related tasks, it does demonstrate that the individual has been tested on problem solving of some sort (be it mathematics, people skills/management, etc). This is also why military personnel often have a leg up on people who came through the civilian route. Normally military personnel are put into problem solving and leadership situations that assist them later on. This does not mean pilots coming through the civilian route do not possess these skills- just as a high school graduate, with the correct experience, can have problem solving skills better than a college graduate. There is just a greater chance of getting these opportunities in the military, thus a greater chance of hiring some one with those skill sets.
2. The above applies to aerobatic teams as well. When the Blue Angels and Thunderbirds interview, flying skills are only one of the many discriminators they use. I experienced the same while being interviewed in the Army for the special operations aviation unit. A big part of the assessment was the check ride, but it was only PART of the assessment, and a pilot could still make it in if he busted the check ride. (BTW, I busted. I was 45 seconds late to the target- an unlit, grass strip that I had to find at night, +- 30 seconds).
3. When screening and hiring pilots, it is not an "either/or" proposition between flying experience and education or demonstrated problem solving skills. Usually you can find people with skills in both areas, and normally these people are better aviators. Maybe the bush pilot is more precise at putting a C-180 down in a stream bed, but that is not airline flying. Airline flying is precisely flying an ILS; diagnosing problems that arise; the correct use of the resources at your disposal. One of the things I HATE to read in an incident summary at my airline is a captain writing, "I immediately took the controls from the FO and performed the _______ immediate action items." Worst thing a captain can do, and statistically leads to more accidents, but it is what most pilots used to a single pilot environment do. Heck, 99.9% of the time a monkey could do my job. It is that .1%, however, that I get paid for. Every emergency I have had has involved much more than just wiggling controls- they have been more about system analysis and problem solving.
Again, I am not writing a pilot without a college degree has no chance of getting the skills needed to be a professional pilot. Nor that pilots with college degrees or military experience possess these skills. Just that the odds are greater.
Enough of high jacking this thread. Wasn't it about TSA or something??



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1