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boiler
01-19-2018, 05:47 PM
Time to assemble a solid list of the reasons you should avoid these carriers. Iíll start:

1. (ABX) Unlimited ability to junior man you on your days off. Weddings, birthdays, etc. donít matter even if you were awarded those days off.

2. (ABX) How does sitting hot reserve at CVG for 12 hours from noon to midnight sound? Thereís a lot of this!

Who else wants to chime in?


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motorclutch
01-19-2018, 06:06 PM
We get to work for scumbags!

redmanchew
01-19-2018, 07:29 PM
You mean sit airport reserve for 12 hrs only to be extended an extra 3 hrs and come back and do it again the next day, and the next day, and the next day...oh and only get paid for 5 hrs.


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Turbosina
01-19-2018, 09:20 PM
You mean sit airport reserve for 12 hrs only to be extended an extra 3 hrs and come back and do it again the next day, and the next day, and the next day...oh and only get paid for 5 hrs.


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You're kidding? Even at a lowly regional they can only put 8 hours of ready reserve per day on us. Yikes...

redmanchew
01-19-2018, 09:26 PM
You're kidding? Even at a lowly regional they can only put 8 hours of ready reserve per day on us. Yikes...



Unfortunately now a regional is a much better option...


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McBoeingBus
01-20-2018, 03:30 AM
121 vs 117. Thanks a lot OMB and BHO.

No Land 3
01-20-2018, 04:35 PM
121 vs 117. Thanks a lot OMB and BHO.

I could see why *you* might want 117, for those of us that arenít abused and put away wet, 117 is nothing more than a huge paycut.

JetRage
01-20-2018, 05:24 PM
Im not sure mgmt here even realized how far behind this place really is. Were bidding on paper. Were flying planes with no CPDLC, no ACARS, paper jepps (although I think they're working on that), no coffee makers and often times no food.

Even the regionals are decades ahead of this place technology wise. Plus they get travel benefits. I came here because the pay was better. But if I go back to reserve and have to get a crash pad in cvg the money wont be there. Definitely not enough to justify being gone a month at a time.

I don't tell other pilots what to do. Go ahead and apply if you want. Come get you some 42k. But I think most us new hires are packing our bags. Just fyi.

No Land 3
01-20-2018, 05:28 PM
Im not sure mgmt here even realized how far behind this place really is. Were bidding on paper. Were flying planes with no CPDLC, no ACARS, paper jepps (although I think they're working on that), no coffee makers and often times no food.

Even the regionals are decades ahead of this place technology wise. Plus they get travel benefits. I came here because the pay was better. But if I go back to reserve and have to get a crash pad in cvg the money wont be there. Definitely not enough to justify being gone a month at a time.

I don't tell other pilots what to do. Go ahead and apply if you want. Come get you some 42k. But I think most us new hires are packing our bags. Just fyi.

I would think management only cares about shareholders.

papacharlie
01-20-2018, 07:21 PM
Man even Envoy is offering a $45000 bonus just to start there....then $68 an hour as a captain.....
ABX ....$44000 after a year of hard working back side of the clock...
there is no money to be made nor an upgrade in sight ...
I dont see any smart pilot applying and coming over here knowing what in this forum people are saying and living the "DREAM":mad:

myoface
01-20-2018, 07:36 PM
Not having to stay at the five towns at JFK. Wait...is that one reason or 5 reasons?

maxjet
01-21-2018, 02:06 AM
Not having to stay at the five towns at JFK. Wait...is that one reason or 5 reasons?but what about the pound cake?

maxjet
01-21-2018, 02:12 AM
Not having to stay at the five towns at JFK. Wait...is that one reason or 5 reasons?but what about the pound cake?

clb2vnav
01-22-2018, 10:13 AM
Im not sure mgmt here even realized how far behind this place really is. Were bidding on paper. Were flying planes with no CPDLC, no ACARS, paper jepps (although I think they're working on that), no coffee makers and often times no food.

Even the regionals are decades ahead of this place technology wise. Plus they get travel benefits. I came here because the pay was better. But if I go back to reserve and have to get a crash pad in cvg the money wont be there. Definitely not enough to justify being gone a month at a time.

I don't tell other pilots what to do. Go ahead and apply if you want. Come get you some 42k. But I think most us new hires are packing our bags. Just fyi.

Dilly dilly! It blows me away how far behind these places are, and when you mention that, people are like "well it saves money" and "that's how we do things here" and "you shoulda saw how bad the [DC]8 was." Ok fine, but you realize you're doing twice the work of your peers for 1/4 of the pay and little to no work rules? In particular, the toothless union of the place I work for ****es me off. I coulda stayed at the regional I was at if I wanted to work with a pilot group with no bargaining power. At least the trips are shorter.

I don't know about other new hires, but this one is actively searching and digging for greener pastures. Avoid ACMI at ALL costs.

Wayst
01-22-2018, 11:15 AM
I don't know about other new hires, but this one is actively searching and digging for greener pastures. Avoid ACMI at ALL costs.[/QUOTE]



I agree. I wish I would have stayed at the Regionals. I can't do 16 days on at time anymore even with the home basing. I live in a big city, so I would rather commute. I am tired of not being able to work as much or as little as i want and be able to trade or drop/add trips. I don't like not having the option to be able to fly 90 hours a month collecting over time and still be home every week. I want the option to control my pay and not just being on salary because we can't fly over the minimum unless we want to be away from home 27 straight days.

No Land 3
01-22-2018, 07:49 PM
Not all ACMIís are the same, but if you canít do 16 days on, then ACMI isnít for you.

TheBrightside
02-22-2018, 11:47 AM
ACMI / ABX fail

All the ACMI carriers are so far behind the rest of the industry and there appears there is no effort to change it from managements perspective. They also refuse to educate themselves on the amount of hiring that is taking place over the next several years. All the majors are hiring stocking up on pilots and cornering the market by making their pilots the highest paid. They are also going to flight schools and securing pilots and giving pilots seniority numbers from their regionals.

Even though all the speculation with Amazon is enticing, here is the problem. Even with a new contract, itís still going to be years behind many carriers that have much better pay, quality of life, benefits and retirement.

There is a reason almost half of new hires at ABX quit before their first year is up. Everyone has their own choice on whatís acceptable to them; however, maybe this will keep some people from making a mistake and taking a job in the ACMI world by understanding what ABX does not have:

From the beginning you will pay for your own hotel during training (at least for 3 weeks)/ If youíre lucky you may get sims somewhere other than ILN, but that was only 1 class last year.

There is a 60 day wait for Insurance

The regional type whipsaw is still in full force - fly for less or someone else will do it cheaper

The Jr manning is ridiculous. Pilots at ABX can never count on going home after a 17 or 8 day trip. They can't plan to staff accordingly because so many pilots quit or don't come here. Be prepared to be required work on your days off. They even ask you in the interview how you feel about jr manning. Be sure and prepare your family that you will be gone 2 or more weeks at a time.

You get no CASS Jumpseat during training, only the system and training takes forever. Youíre basically punished for taking the job in not being able to get home. Itís training for the weeks on end that youíre going to be away from your family when online.

There is no KCM so plan on going through security when you deadhead and commute

There is no 117 rest rules. Be ready to fly day then night with very little protections.

Not all flights are catered so have fun packing food and you only get frozen water in the winter or in the summer water that is 100 degrees. Donít worry they donít put any ice on the plane for you.

Hotels Ė they tell the hotel donít give you free breakfast or points under any circumstances

Reserve- itís the most egregious reserve system in the airline industry. No long call, a terrible way for assignment in a FIFO, no auto release, the ready reserve- no limits be prepared to sit up to 12 hours and donít even think of getting released to go eat.

There are no trip, duty rigs or min day credit, no 75 hour monthly guarantee

Flex days; these are a nice nugget that is essentially reserve for line holders.

The bidding is still paper line bidding. Thatís right, someone else decides what days off and type of trips you want to fly. There is very little chance of PBS here because the senior guys donít understand how systems have changed and are better and the company would want complete control of it just like they want to control all the rest of scheduling.

Trades have to be for equal days and equitable so forget trading for more days off. Speaking of days off you can never ďget seniorĒ and get more days off.

Did I mention Junior man? The Company feels they own everyone to use then at their will on their days off. You can never plan on going home at the end of your trip. You actually have to call and ask if there are any messages!!!!!!!

The paper work and scoring. Yes, they still score paper flight plans and turn in paper work like 1985, and then they audit it and send it to you like youíre in 4th grade and tell you to fix any errors.

No EFB- maybe sometime in the next year or two

The commute clause is less than industry standard. You have to use 2 flights and they have to get there 5 hours before your duty in.

Bottom line this place is stuck in 1980 and management absolutely hates pilots.

Other than that itís not too bad.

ATI I hear is even worse for scheduling only 1 16 day schedule and vacation can be on your days off.

Stimpy the Kat
02-22-2018, 12:14 PM
Well...Every airline that anyone has ever heard of in The Known Universe is Hiring.

So, time to leave right?

:)

727CA
02-22-2018, 03:58 PM
ACMI / ABX fail



All the ACMI carriers are so far behind the rest of the industry and there appears there is no effort to change it from managements perspective. They also refuse to educate themselves on the amount of hiring that is taking place over the next several years. All the majors are hiring stocking up on pilots and cornering the market by making their pilots the highest paid. They are also going to flight schools and securing pilots and giving pilots seniority numbers from their regionals.



Even though all the speculation with Amazon is enticing, here is the problem. Even with a new contract, itís still going to be years behind many carriers that have much better pay, quality of life, benefits and retirement.



There is a reason almost half of new hires at ABX quit before their first year is up. Everyone has their own choice on whatís acceptable to them; however, maybe this will keep some people from making a mistake and taking a job in the ACMI world by understanding what ABX does not have:



From the beginning you will pay for your own hotel during training (at least for 3 weeks)/ If youíre lucky you may get sims somewhere other than ILN, but that was only 1 class last year.



There is a 60 day wait for Insurance



The regional type whipsaw is still in full force - fly for less or someone else will do it cheaper



The Jr manning is ridiculous. Pilots at ABX can never count on going home after a 17 or 8 day trip. They can't plan to staff accordingly because so many pilots quit or don't come here. Be prepared to be required work on your days off. They even ask you in the interview how you feel about jr manning. Be sure and prepare your family that you will be gone 2 or more weeks at a time.



You get no CASS Jumpseat during training, only the system and training takes forever. Youíre basically punished for taking the job in not being able to get home. Itís training for the weeks on end that youíre going to be away from your family when online.



There is no KCM so plan on going through security when you deadhead and commute



There is no 117 rest rules. Be ready to fly day then night with very little protections.



Not all flights are catered so have fun packing food and you only get frozen water in the winter or in the summer water that is 100 degrees. Donít worry they donít put any ice on the plane for you.



Hotels Ė they tell the hotel donít give you free breakfast or points under any circumstances



Reserve- itís the most egregious reserve system in the airline industry. No long call, a terrible way for assignment in a FIFO, no auto release, the ready reserve- no limits be prepared to sit up to 12 hours and donít even think of getting released to go eat.



There are no trip, duty rigs or min day credit, no 75 hour monthly guarantee



Flex days; these are a nice nugget that is essentially reserve for line holders.



The bidding is still paper line bidding. Thatís right, someone else decides what days off and type of trips you want to fly. There is very little chance of PBS here because the senior guys donít understand how systems have changed and are better and the company would want complete control of it just like they want to control all the rest of scheduling.



Trades have to be for equal days and equitable so forget trading for more days off. Speaking of days off you can never ďget seniorĒ and get more days off.



Did I mention Junior man? The Company feels they own everyone to use then at their will on their days off. You can never plan on going home at the end of your trip. You actually have to call and ask if there are any messages!!!!!!!



The paper work and scoring. Yes, they still score paper flight plans and turn in paper work like 1985, and then they audit it and send it to you like youíre in 4th grade and tell you to fix any errors.



No EFB- maybe sometime in the next year or two



The commute clause is less than industry standard. You have to use 2 flights and they have to get there 5 hours before your duty in.



Bottom line this place is stuck in 1980 and management absolutely hates pilots.



Other than that itís not too bad.



ATI I hear is even worse for scheduling only 1 16 day schedule and vacation can be on your days off.



No KCM for a non home-based airline, thatís stupid. Even ATI uses KCM.
ATI is better than ABX for all those reasons, and we are hiring because ABX sucks for all those reasons. Not many pilots are leaving ATI. The trips are usually 16 on 12 off and I havenít been jr assigned in over 8 years.
ABX isnít even hiring


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hackerbyday
02-22-2018, 05:06 PM
ACMI / ABX fail

All the ACMI carriers are so far behind the rest of the industry and there appears there is no effort to change it from managements perspective. They also refuse to educate themselves on the amount of hiring that is taking place over the next several years. All the majors are hiring stocking up on pilots and cornering the market by making their pilots the highest paid. They are also going to flight schools and securing pilots and giving pilots seniority numbers from their regionals.

Even though all the speculation with Amazon is enticing, here is the problem. Even with a new contract, it’s still going to be years behind many carriers that have much better pay, quality of life, benefits and retirement.

There is a reason almost half of new hires at ABX quit before their first year is up. Everyone has their own choice on what’s acceptable to them; however, maybe this will keep some people from making a mistake and taking a job in the ACMI world by understanding what ABX does not have:

From the beginning you will pay for your own hotel during training (at least for 3 weeks)/ If you’re lucky you may get sims somewhere other than ILN, but that was only 1 class last year.

There is a 60 day wait for Insurance

The regional type whipsaw is still in full force - fly for less or someone else will do it cheaper

The Jr manning is ridiculous. Pilots at ABX can never count on going home after a 17 or 8 day trip. They can't plan to staff accordingly because so many pilots quit or don't come here. Be prepared to be required work on your days off. They even ask you in the interview how you feel about jr manning. Be sure and prepare your family that you will be gone 2 or more weeks at a time.

You get no CASS Jumpseat during training, only the system and training takes forever. You’re basically punished for taking the job in not being able to get home. It’s training for the weeks on end that you’re going to be away from your family when online.

There is no KCM so plan on going through security when you deadhead and commute

There is no 117 rest rules. Be ready to fly day then night with very little protections.

Not all flights are catered so have fun packing food and you only get frozen water in the winter or in the summer water that is 100 degrees. Don’t worry they don’t put any ice on the plane for you.

Hotels – they tell the hotel don’t give you free breakfast or points under any circumstances

Reserve- it’s the most egregious reserve system in the airline industry. No long call, a terrible way for assignment in a FIFO, no auto release, the ready reserve- no limits be prepared to sit up to 12 hours and don’t even think of getting released to go eat.

There are no trip, duty rigs or min day credit, no 75 hour monthly guarantee

Flex days; these are a nice nugget that is essentially reserve for line holders.

The bidding is still paper line bidding. That’s right, someone else decides what days off and type of trips you want to fly. There is very little chance of PBS here because the senior guys don’t understand how systems have changed and are better and the company would want complete control of it just like they want to control all the rest of scheduling.

Trades have to be for equal days and equitable so forget trading for more days off. Speaking of days off you can never “get senior” and get more days off.

Did I mention Junior man? The Company feels they own everyone to use then at their will on their days off. You can never plan on going home at the end of your trip. You actually have to call and ask if there are any messages!!!!!!!

The paper work and scoring. Yes, they still score paper flight plans and turn in paper work like 1985, and then they audit it and send it to you like you’re in 4th grade and tell you to fix any errors.

No EFB- maybe sometime in the next year or two

The commute clause is less than industry standard. You have to use 2 flights and they have to get there 5 hours before your duty in.

Bottom line this place is stuck in 1980 and management absolutely hates pilots.

Other than that it’s not too bad.

ATI I hear is even worse for scheduling only 1 16 day schedule and vacation can be on your days off.


Wow, you better grab a whole box of tissues to dry them tears. And don’t forget to call your Mom so she can make it all better for you.

Just as back in the “old days” people are leaving because the majors are hiring only back then people didn’t feel the need to trash everything and everyone on the way out.

And as far as us old guys not being smart enough to handle the technology why don’t you start by learning to fly so I can get back to my nap.

Jurassic Jet
02-22-2018, 06:22 PM
ABX isnít even hiring


Weíve hired 12 in the past 6 weeks.

freighthound
02-22-2018, 07:17 PM
ACMI / ABX fail

All the ACMI carriers are so far behind the rest of the industry and there appears there is no effort to change it from managements perspective. They also refuse to educate themselves on the amount of hiring that is taking place over the next several years. All the majors are hiring stocking up on pilots and cornering the market by making their pilots the highest paid. They are also going to flight schools and securing pilots and giving pilots seniority numbers from their regionals.

Even though all the speculation with Amazon is enticing, here is the problem. Even with a new contract, itís still going to be years behind many carriers that have much better pay, quality of life, benefits and retirement.

There is a reason almost half of new hires at ABX quit before their first year is up. Everyone has their own choice on whatís acceptable to them; however, maybe this will keep some people from making a mistake and taking a job in the ACMI world by understanding what ABX does not have:

From the beginning you will pay for your own hotel during training (at least for 3 weeks)/ If youíre lucky you may get sims somewhere other than ILN, but that was only 1 class last year.

There is a 60 day wait for Insurance

The regional type whipsaw is still in full force - fly for less or someone else will do it cheaper

The Jr manning is ridiculous. Pilots at ABX can never count on going home after a 17 or 8 day trip. They can't plan to staff accordingly because so many pilots quit or don't come here. Be prepared to be required work on your days off. They even ask you in the interview how you feel about jr manning. Be sure and prepare your family that you will be gone 2 or more weeks at a time.

You get no CASS Jumpseat during training, only the system and training takes forever. Youíre basically punished for taking the job in not being able to get home. Itís training for the weeks on end that youíre going to be away from your family when online.

There is no KCM so plan on going through security when you deadhead and commute

There is no 117 rest rules. Be ready to fly day then night with very little protections.

Not all flights are catered so have fun packing food and you only get frozen water in the winter or in the summer water that is 100 degrees. Donít worry they donít put any ice on the plane for you.

Hotels Ė they tell the hotel donít give you free breakfast or points under any circumstances

Reserve- itís the most egregious reserve system in the airline industry. No long call, a terrible way for assignment in a FIFO, no auto release, the ready reserve- no limits be prepared to sit up to 12 hours and donít even think of getting released to go eat.

There are no trip, duty rigs or min day credit, no 75 hour monthly guarantee

Flex days; these are a nice nugget that is essentially reserve for line holders.

The bidding is still paper line bidding. Thatís right, someone else decides what days off and type of trips you want to fly. There is very little chance of PBS here because the senior guys donít understand how systems have changed and are better and the company would want complete control of it just like they want to control all the rest of scheduling.

Trades have to be for equal days and equitable so forget trading for more days off. Speaking of days off you can never ďget seniorĒ and get more days off.

Did I mention Junior man? The Company feels they own everyone to use then at their will on their days off. You can never plan on going home at the end of your trip. You actually have to call and ask if there are any messages!!!!!!!

The paper work and scoring. Yes, they still score paper flight plans and turn in paper work like 1985, and then they audit it and send it to you like youíre in 4th grade and tell you to fix any errors.

No EFB- maybe sometime in the next year or two

The commute clause is less than industry standard. You have to use 2 flights and they have to get there 5 hours before your duty in.

Bottom line this place is stuck in 1980 and management absolutely hates pilots.

Other than that itís not too bad.

ATI I hear is even worse for scheduling only 1 16 day schedule and vacation can be on your days off.

If you hate it that bad and it is so easy to get a job why don't you leave!

Kougarok
02-22-2018, 07:44 PM
No KCM for a non home-based airline, that’s stupid. Even ATI uses KCM.
ATI is better than ABX for all those reasons, and we are hiring because ABX sucks for all those reasons. Not many pilots are leaving ATI. The trips are usually 16 on 12 off and I haven’t been jr assigned in over 8 years.
ABX isn’t even hiring


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Yeah how’s your pay? I’ll tell you. Generally your captains make what our FO’S make. How does that feel?

I work 17 on 14 off. That’s kind of better then 16 on 12 off huh?

ABX is hiring dip****.

Wear your uniform and go through TSA precheck that’s what I do.

maxjet
02-22-2018, 10:42 PM
Weíve hired 12 in the past 6 weeks.
The reason ABX hasnít hired is because they are not willing to take a concessionary contract. Just like when they refused the DHL 737ís because the rates sucked. Please do not as an ATI pilot, come on here and bash ABX for sticking to their principals. They have and will have my respect.

Jurassic Jet
02-22-2018, 11:58 PM
The reason ABX hasnít hired is because they are not willing to take a concessionary contract. Just like when they refused the DHL 737ís because the rates sucked. Please do not as an ATI pilot, come on here and bash ABX for sticking to their principals. They have and will have my respect.

Umm, Iím not an ATI pilot.

Red Baron
02-23-2018, 04:19 AM
The reason ABX hasnít hired is because they are not willing to take a concessionary contract. Just like when they refused the DHL 737ís because the rates sucked. Please do not as an ATI pilot, come on here and bash ABX for sticking to their principals. They have and will have my respect.

Yeah, sticking to principles.....like allowing ABX management to let pilots with over 12 years seniority fall off the seniority list and then bring new hires on property the week after.....yeah, principles.

stringandrudder
02-23-2018, 04:57 AM
Wow, you better grab a whole box of tissues to dry them tears. And donít forget to call your Mom so she can make it all better for you.

Just as back in the ďold daysĒ people are leaving because the majors are hiring only back then people didnít feel the need to trash everything and everyone on the way out.

And as far as us old guys not being smart enough to handle the technology why donít you start by learning to fly so I can get back to my nap.

Thatís a great attitude! Why fix the culture when you can belittle someone for sharing their experience on the internet.

vroll1800
02-23-2018, 08:08 AM
The reason ABX hasn’t hired is because they are not willing to take a concessionary contract. Just like when they refused the DHL 737’s because the rates sucked. Please do not as an ATI pilot, come on here and bash ABX for sticking to their principals. They have and will have my respect.

mj: Did you intend to direct that post at "727CA" whom JJ quoted ? JJ is either a present or former ABX pilot. I'm guessing "727CA" is an ATI pilot with a "C(r)appy" background. I think you meant to say "principles" (darn those spell check limitations). Thanks for closing remarks, hope you enjoyed Connie's 80th birthday bash.

FlyAstarJets
02-23-2018, 08:52 AM
Just like when they (ABX) refused the DHL 737ís because the rates sucked. Please do not as an ATI pilot, come on here and bash ABX for sticking to their principals. They have and will have my respect.

Ummm.....ATI also rejected the 737 deal because the rates sucked AND no home basing.

rickair7777
02-23-2018, 09:02 AM
Not having to stay at the five towns at JFK. Wait...is that one reason or 5 reasons?

Pax airlines won't save you from that.

boiler
02-23-2018, 09:11 AM
Wow, you better grab a whole box of tissues to dry them tears. And donít forget to call your Mom so she can make it all better for you.

Just as back in the ďold daysĒ people are leaving because the majors are hiring only back then people didnít feel the need to trash everything and everyone on the way out.

And as far as us old guys not being smart enough to handle the technology why donít you start by learning to fly so I can get back to my nap.



I have no issues with the captains that I fly with here, but come on man...youíve got to admit that this place is awful and everyone has the attitude of ďthis is how weíve always done itĒ regardless of how antiquated the practice may be. You senior guys ought to listen to us newer guys because we know how the rest of the industry works. I get paid better here than I did in the right seat at a regional and I fly a bigger airplane, but beyond that our work rules are so much worse than any regional pilot could dream of.

Then youíve got Soaper coming in and harassing crews demanding concessions on our already ****ty work rules until finally a couple 151ers stepped up and put him in his place last week. Good thing someone filed a harassment claim with HR and called the feds for taking away time from FAA required training!


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woog315
02-23-2018, 01:12 PM
I have no issues with the captains that I fly with here, but come on man...you’ve got to admit that this place is awful and everyone has the attitude of “this is how we’ve always done it” regardless of how antiquated the practice may be. You senior guys ought to listen to us newer guys because we know how the rest of the industry works. I get paid better here than I did in the right seat at a regional and I fly a bigger airplane, but beyond that our work rules are so much worse than any regional pilot could dream of.



I do find it funny when its 10am and I'm on hour 13 of some godawful SAS run and conversation in the cockpit is 'we have to protect our work rules'. Frankly, its more of a scheduling and money thing than a 'what does the work day look like' argument anyways, but it is still amusing. There is a lot of soft pay at ABX that comes from scheduling rules- I honestly wouldn't mind seeing things straightened out and streamlined (for both sides), but I don't really see that happening unless Z pulls a rabbit out of his hat.

There is absolutely a 'locked in our old ways' mindset on both sides of ABX. It is kind of an anomalous cornfield airline in the first place, they truly did things their own way and made it work as Airborne Express and now they are trying to shoehorn what they learned into other people's systems (DHL, Amazon... any other operator) and the result is awkward. That said, as far as I can tell they still move express freight more reliably than any other contract operator though it's not clear to me if their on-time margin over other operators is something anyone but ABX cares about.

nitefr8dog
02-23-2018, 01:43 PM
Wow, you better grab a whole box of tissues to dry them tears. And donít forget to call your Mom so she can make it all better for you.

Just as back in the ďold daysĒ people are leaving because the majors are hiring only back then people didnít feel the need to trash everything and everyone on the way out.

And as far as us old guys not being smart enough to handle the technology why donít you start by learning to fly so I can get back to my nap.

A lot of free duel! And didn't anyone at the commuters learn to have the pointy end of the airplane facing the end of the runway when doing a xwind landing?

Reactivity
02-23-2018, 04:27 PM
A lot of free duel!

Pistols at 50 paces at sunrise?

hackerbyday
02-24-2018, 06:25 AM
I have no issues with the captains that I fly with here, but come on man...you’ve got to admit that this place is awful and everyone has the attitude of “this is how we’ve always done it” regardless of how antiquated the practice may be. You senior guys ought to listen to us newer guys because we know how the rest of the industry works. I get paid better here than I did in the right seat at a regional and I fly a bigger airplane, but beyond that our work rules are so much worse than any regional pilot could dream of.

Then you’ve got Soaper coming in and harassing crews demanding concessions on our already ****ty work rules until finally a couple 151ers stepped up and put him in his place last week. Good thing someone filed a harassment claim with HR and called the feds for taking away time from FAA required training!


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Dang I didn’t know you guys are the Mesiah here to save us from our ignorant cornfield ways. We don’t know how the industry works? Well its obvious you had no idea what ACMI flying is all about, or did you just not do your research before coming here. All the whining about no food and warm water you’ll never become a freight dog just some little pampered poodle.
And then to say a couple 151rs put Soaper in his place by walking out on him instead of standing up and being the adult in the room and taking it to him. But no coming on here to air your grievances that takes a pair.

nitefr8dog
02-24-2018, 08:25 AM
Pistols at 50 paces at sunrise?

Might be easier than riding thru some of those landings!

boiler
02-24-2018, 06:05 PM
Dang I didnít know you guys are the Mesiah here to save us from our ignorant cornfield ways. We donít know how the industry works? Well its obvious you had no idea what ACMI flying is all about, or did you just not do your research before coming here. All the whining about no food and warm water youíll never become a freight dog just some little pampered poodle.
And then to say a couple 151rs put Soaper in his place by walking out on him instead of standing up and being the adult in the room and taking it to him. But no coming on here to air your grievances that takes a pair.



One of those 151ers argued with him for an hour (and yes, the other walked out at some point in there). Apparently it ended when he told Soaper that we will never take concessions, he doesnít intimidate us, and we do not want to talk to him in class ever again. Sounds like he held his ground pretty well.

I never said we were the messiah. I just said you would do well to value our opinions since we have all recently come from various parts of the industry. Many of the senior guys have endured this nonsense so long that it doesnít register how lousy our work rules are. I donít fault you for that. Iím just saying that we should have clear goals on what we want for our QOL if we ever get a contract to vote on.

Iím really not sure why youíre irritated with us in this thread. Most of the senior guys Iíve talked with about these things agree that this is a sketchy cornfield operation that is frankly kind of embarrassing, but for some reason youíre taking it personally that we are calling a spade a spade. Itís not personal at all...


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freighthound
02-24-2018, 08:58 PM
One of those 151ers argued with him for an hour (and yes, the other walked out at some point in there). Apparently it ended when he told Soaper that we will never take concessions, he doesnít intimidate us, and we do not want to talk to him in class ever again. Sounds like he held his ground pretty well.

I never said we were the messiah. I just said you would do well to value our opinions since we have all recently come from various parts of the industry. Many of the senior guys have endured this nonsense so long that it doesnít register how lousy our work rules are. I donít fault you for that. Iím just saying that we should have clear goals on what we want for our QOL if we ever get a contract to vote on.

Iím really not sure why youíre irritated with us in this thread. Most of the senior guys Iíve talked with about these things agree that this is a sketchy cornfield operation that is frankly kind of embarrassing, but for some reason youíre taking it personally that we are calling a spade a spade. Itís not personal at all...


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People will value your opinion only as much as you value theirs.

Crazy Canuck
02-24-2018, 11:39 PM
I have no issues with the captains that I fly with here, but come on man...youíve got to admit that this place is awful and everyone has the attitude of ďthis is how weíve always done itĒ regardless of how antiquated the practice may be. You senior guys ought to listen to us newer guys because we know how the rest of the industry works. I get paid better here than I did in the right seat at a regional and I fly a bigger airplane, but beyond that our work rules are so much worse than any regional pilot could dream of.

Then youíve got Soaper coming in and harassing crews demanding concessions on our already ****ty work rules until finally a couple 151ers stepped up and put him in his place last week. Good thing someone filed a harassment claim with HR and called the feds for taking away time from FAA required training!


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Harassment claim? Can you elaborate?

boiler
02-25-2018, 02:28 AM
Harassment claim? Can you elaborate?



He has been coming to recurrent training classes and interrupting them to tell us how terrible we are, how Amazon and DHL want nothing to do with us, how heís proud he ďstoleĒ the 737s from us when he was at Southern, tell us how illegal he thinks our strike was, berate us when we disagree with him, and demand concessions from us. Since this is is done during our required training which creates a huge distraction and lots of anger, someone went to HR to complain that this is harassment and creates a hostile work environment.


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Industry Strnd
02-28-2018, 03:28 PM
100 million in earnings and no defined contribution retirement of 16% like the rest of the industry?

I don't have to wait for the details to come out to know the ATI TA will fall way short of industry standard pay and retirement!

I hear ATI and ABX are having trouble filling classes and the new hires are quitting as fast as the train their replacements.

Industry Strnd
03-08-2018, 10:38 PM
Omni and Kalitta are the places to go right now for a 767 type and maybe a career or a place to wait for FedEx or UPS. ATI even with a new deal still one of the worst paid airlines flying a 767, virtually no retirement, 16 day schedules, and vacation isn't always vacation. ABX has low 1st yr pay, no hotel during training, and they Jr man you all the time to the point where you have to strike to get them to stop.......nothing to see here at ATI ABX.....go somewhere that values their pilots and has already rewarded them with an industry leading cba.....

Omni
Spirit
Kalitta
Ups
Fedex
United
Delta
American
Southwest
And plenty of corporate jobs like net jets! Just these places alone are hiring in the thousands! ABX and ATI doesnt care about your quality of life, the old school scheduling of abusing pilots on reserve, low staffing will continue.

GraceMonth
03-09-2018, 04:26 AM
Omni hasnít passed their TA yet though.... just so thatís accurate. And NetJets is not hiring by the thousands, if theyíre having classes at all. Lots of stagnation and long, long, long wait for upgrade.

No Land 3
03-09-2018, 07:49 AM
If going K4, Iíd suggest the 747

Industry Strnd
03-14-2018, 02:03 PM
I wonder if Amazon and DHL know that a 2nd yr fo at FedEx and UPS has a bigger w2 and more time off, than a senior captain at ATI (even with a ta) and ABX. If they think they can man 100 planes paying the lowest wages in the industry, I can't wait to see that. Between Atlas, ABX and ATI only about 50% of the new hires stay longer than a year!

sky jet
03-14-2018, 03:52 PM
I wonder if Amazon and DHL know that a 2nd yr fo at FedEx and UPS has a bigger w2 and more time off, than a senior captain at ATI (even with a ta) and ABX. If they think they can man 100 planes paying the lowest wages in the industry, I can't wait to see that. Between Atlas, ABX and ATI only about 50% of the new hires stay longer than a year!

Amazon could not care less. They contract load for a set price. Just like the customers of FedEx or UPS don't care what their pilots make. If a company makes a contract with Amazon to provide 100 airplanes they expect them to fulfill the deal.

It's time to quit worrying about what X customer thinks and focus on what you can get from your company based on the profits they are reaping in.

Tumbl3weed
03-14-2018, 06:48 PM
It's time to quit worrying about what X customer thinks and focus on what you can get from your company based on the profits they are reaping in.
^^^Amen to that^^^
Company mamagement makes therir money off our efforts to get the plane to its destination on time.
Accept the things You cannot change,
Have the Courage to change the things You can

Industry Strnd
03-14-2018, 07:53 PM
^^^Amen to that^^^
Company mamagement makes therir money off our efforts to get the plane to its destination on time.
Accept the things You cannot change,
Have the Courage to change the things You can


Well let's see ATSG and Atlas set record profit's and on the earnings call they admit they pass off labor costs with escalators to the customer, so you must not be very educated on the huge profit's of ATSG and Atlas!

Whistlin' Dan
03-18-2018, 01:40 PM
I wonder if Amazon and DHL know that a 2nd yr fo at FedEx and UPS has a bigger w2 and more time off, than a senior captain at ATI (even with a ta) and ABX.
They do, and they pride themselves accordingly.If they think they can man 100 planes paying the lowest wages in the industry, I can't wait to see that. Between Atlas, ABX and ATI only about 50% of the new hires stay longer than a year! That is immaterial to them. If they need to hire 2 to keep 1, so it will be. The cost of training the ones who leave will be made back on the wages of the ones who stay.

There's no reason you shouldn't be paid at rates commensurate with those at UPS and FedEx. The product is the same, as is the service you perform in providing it. Your problem isn't so much with ATI and ABX (or K4 or Southern) per se, but with the unholy alliance between your government and those it is charged with overseeing, and that permits unbridled and unregulated "permatemping" of jobs. The best, industry-leading contract you could possibly secure is built upon the shifting sands of corporate greed. It comes with a best-if-used-by date that coincides with the last day of your contracted service to DHL or Amazon, and even that can be terminated on relatively short notice. It all leads to a situation not unlike that which beguiled Sisyphus, tasked for eternity with rolling a boulder up a hill only to watch it roll back down. And for those in the ACMI business, that "rolling back down the hill" -thing is going to happen on about a 3 to 5 year cycle. For EVER.

Any improvement to your working conditions you can effect by bringing pressure upon your union or management is going to be temporary at best. The real fight for change is going to be in Washington, D.C. starting in November and carrying on until your goals are achieved.

nitefr8dog
03-18-2018, 05:37 PM
They do, and they pride themselves accordingly. That is immaterial to them. If they need to hire 2 to keep 1, so it will be. The cost of training the ones who leave will be made back on the wages of the ones who stay.

There's no reason you shouldn't be paid at rates commensurate with those at UPS and FedEx. The product is the same, as is the service you perform in providing it. Your problem isn't so much with ATI and ABX (or K4 or Southern) per se, but with the unholy alliance between your government and those it is charged with overseeing, and that permits unbridled and unregulated "permatemping" of jobs. The best, industry-leading contract you could possibly secure is built upon the shifting sands of corporate greed. It comes with a best-if-used-by date that coincides with the last day of your contracted service to DHL or Amazon, and even that can be terminated on relatively short notice. It all leads to a situation not unlike that which beguiled Sisyphus, tasked for eternity with rolling a boulder up a hill only to watch it roll back down. And for those in the ACMI business, that "rolling back down the hill" -thing is going to happen on about a 3 to 5 year cycle. For EVER.

Any improvement to your working conditions you can effect by bringing pressure upon your union or management is going to be temporary at best. The real fight for change is going to be in Washington, D.C. starting in November and carrying on until your goals are achieved.

Well thats it then.....we should have that fixed in no time.

ROBsINtheHOOD
03-18-2018, 07:10 PM
The Railway Labor Act should be a target for amendment. It boggles the mind why its repeal / replacement is not on anyone`s agenda. Time for a change ? Sure it is.

hackerbyday
03-19-2018, 07:28 AM
Your problem isn't so much with ATI and ABX (or K4 or Southern) per se,

Any improvement to your working conditions you can effect by bringing pressure upon your union or management is going to be temporary at best. The real fight for change is going to be in Washington, D.C. starting in November and carrying on until your goals are achieved.

Our problem sure is with our associated companies. Contract negotiations and pay scales have never been linked to wether the Republicans or Democrats were in charged but instead to the economy, mainly supply and demand for our craft and the number of available bodies to fill the seats.

Industry Strnd
03-20-2018, 11:37 AM
With all the required flying on days off ......its starting to set the company up for a status quo violation that caused the strike at ABX. The last earnings call they said the pilot shortage is starting to hit, then later said there are plenty of resumes on file. If that is the case then why are pilots still quitting in record numbers and why could abx not fill the last class? What was it 4 pilots backed out of class?

hackerbyday
03-20-2018, 03:18 PM
With all the required flying on days off ......its starting to set the company up for a status quo violation that caused the strike at ABX. The last earnings call they said the pilot shortage is starting to hit, then later said there are plenty of resumes on file. If that is the case then why are pilots still quitting in record numbers and why could abx not fill the last class? What was it 4 pilots backed out of class?

Jr Manning was not the reason for the strike as its allowed in our CBA.
People are leaving all the ACMI carriers as the majors are hiring. Our last class did not go unfilled. Go troll somewhere else.

Asci
03-20-2018, 03:30 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=tmY7uGnilvY

Jurassic Jet
03-20-2018, 03:45 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=tmY7uGnilvY

I've watched that 167 times and it keeps getting funnier every single time! :D

https://mfst.igromania.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/michael-keaton-beetlejuice.jpg

Industry Strnd
03-20-2018, 03:57 PM
Jr Manning was not the reason for the strike as its allowed in our CBA.
People are leaving all the ACMI kcarriers as the majors are hiring. Our last class did not go unfilled. Go troll somewhere else.


So your happy the contract allows the company to work you as many days as they want?

So how many were in the last class?
3

How many dropped out before class?
2, 3, 4?

How many did they Want in class?
4

How many thousands of pilots in the USA and they can't fill a class of 4?

sherpster
03-20-2018, 05:50 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=tmY7uGnilvY

That was well worth the visit! Thanks. Funny as heck

HercDriver130
03-20-2018, 09:28 PM
Jr Manning was not the reason for the strike as its allowed in our CBA.
People are leaving all the ACMI carriers as the majors are hiring. Our last class did not go unfilled. Go troll somewhere else.

hum...no...K4 has had exactly 1 resignation in the past 12 months...

nitefr8dog
03-21-2018, 01:09 AM
So your happy the contract allows the company to work you as many days as they want?

So how many were in the last class?
3

How many dropped out before class?
2, 3, 4?

How many did they Want in class?
4

How many thousands of pilots in the USA and they can't fill a class of 4?
Because the contract allows it does not mean you have too. The ones being JRM'd are allowing it to happen for premium pay and days back. Once the ball starts rolling everyday worked is premium and you can still take the days off you want. Many crewmembers never even filled all D6 requirements for the extra day in 2016 or 2017. Just need to be creative and work when you want. It only happens if you let it!

Industry Strnd
03-21-2018, 08:53 AM
[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2555412]Because the contract allows it does not mean you have too. The ones being JRM'd are allowing it to happen for premium pay and days back. Once the ball starts rolling everyday worked is premium and you can still take the days off you want. Many crewmembers never even filled all D6 requirements for the extra day in 2016 or 2017. Just need to be creative and work when you want. It only happens if you let it![/QUOTE

Ahh yes you do, if they say work on days off you have to! Nice try in trying to make potential new hits think this place isn't as bad as it is. Trust me you can't deny being told you have to work on your days off! It's mandatory when they get you!

Jurassic Jet
03-21-2018, 09:42 AM
Ahh yes you do, if they say work on days off you have to! ...Trust me you can't deny being told you have to work on your days off! It's mandatory when they get you!

Not if I'm too tired. ;)

nitefr8dog
03-21-2018, 03:04 PM
[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2555412]Because the contract allows it does not mean you have too. The ones being JRM'd are allowing it to happen for premium pay and days back. Once the ball starts rolling everyday worked is premium and you can still take the days off you want. Many crewmembers never even filled all D6 requirements for the extra day in 2016 or 2017. Just need to be creative and work when you want. It only happens if you let it![/QUOTE

Ahh yes you do, if they say work on days off you have to! Nice try in trying to make potential new hits think this place isn't as bad as it is. Trust me you can't deny being told you have to work on your days off! It's mandatory when they get you!

BS....grow a pair...I have told them many times I am not available and simply hangup. I would never try to tell anyone this sh$#hole company is not that bad. I am saying work JRM/OT if you want...go home when you need to its that simple.

hackerbyday
03-22-2018, 06:46 PM
So your happy the contract allows the company to work you as many days as they want?

I did not say that just responded to your statement, ďWith all the required flying on days off ......its starting to set the company up for a status quo violation that caused the strike at ABXĒ. Just saying that it is not a status quo violation under our current contract and was not the cause of our strike. Besides there are 101 ways to not fly JR Man.

Industry Strnd
04-05-2018, 09:06 AM
As a recap for anyone thinking of applying at ATI, ABX, or Atlas...

ATLAS..management has prolonged negotiations, substandard pay, sued the pilots, end up in the desert in countries you didn't even know existed.

ATI, you won't be one who crossed a picket line but for the rest of your career pilots will associate you as you might have crossed...you wont be one who voted for a substandard contract but pilots won't know that. Work 16 days in a row and then be told you have to work more days, weak alpa union who let's alpa national and management lead them around. No scope on wide bodies. Virtually no retirement and rates that fall well short of real airlines.

Abx, low 1st year pay, 17 day schedules, no kcm, no hotel or perdiem during training, management that hates pilots, losing airplanes, no new contract in sight!

The amazon dream doesn't exist there is no sign of Amazon buying any of these carriers nor is there any public announced growth. Matter of fact all of these carriers are under staffed for the flying they current try to do. If you love being told you have to work extra days for the lowest pay in the industry come here.

If you're thinking about coming to one of these carriers maybe think twice. There are plenty of carriers that have rewarded their pilots with industry standard contracts but not these places!

Did I miss anything?

Oh yeah 12 hour ready reserve.

Anything else?

redmanchew
04-05-2018, 09:43 AM
As a recap for anyone thinking of applying at ATI, ABX, or Atlas...



ATLAS..management has prolonged negotiations, substandard pay, sued the pilots, end up in the desert in countries you didn't even know existed.



ATI, you won't be one who crossed a picket line but for the rest of your career pilots will associate you as you might have crossed...you wont be one who voted for a substandard contract but pilots won't know that. Work 16 days in a row and then be told you have to work more days, weak alpa union who let's alpa national and management lead them around. No scope on wide bodies. Virtually no retirement and rates that fall well short of real airlines.



Abx, low 1st year pay, 17 day schedules, no kcm, no hotel or perdiem during training, management that hates pilots, losing airplanes, no new contract in sight!



The amazon dream doesn't exist there is no sign of Amazon buying any of these carriers nor is there any public announced growth. Matter of fact all of these carriers are under staffed for the flying they current try to do. If you love being told you have to work extra days for the lowest pay in the industry come here.



If you're thinking about coming to one of these carriers maybe think twice. There are plenty of carriers that have rewarded their pilots with industry standard contracts but not these places!



Did I miss anything?



Oh yeah 12 hour ready reserve.



Anything else?



Don't forget getting extended 2 hrs extra on that 12 hr reserve...and preflighting 3 planes at a time. And don't forget that the only way to get paid properly is to grieve it and hope it gets settled within the decade.


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point432
04-05-2018, 11:00 AM
Wasn't there a couple people that had pay issues after they left and might be figuring to just consider it a lost cause? This was up for grievance but those that addressed it, I haven't heard anything about lately.

Stratocruzr
04-05-2018, 06:40 PM
Don't forget getting extended 2 hrs extra on that 12 hr reserve...and preflighting 3 planes at a time. And don't forget that the only way to get paid properly is to grieve it and hope it gets settled within the decade.


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Donít forget the taxable travel at $500+ per mo.
And when the department loses the receipts you mailed in on time. Your paycheck is docked additional for company travel.
YOU have to jump through your ass to clear it.

Too many other places with way better contracts. This place is stuck in the 80s. No talent in any departments. Crisis management at all times.

303flyboy
04-05-2018, 06:48 PM
How many of the 151s hired two years ago are left ?

GeelErmo
04-06-2018, 12:41 AM
How many of the 151s hired two years ago are left ?

40+% and growing. 3-5 every month.

Industry Strnd
04-10-2018, 12:15 PM
Still Jr man requiring guys to work on days off at ABX / ATI?

Locke
04-10-2018, 02:31 PM
How many of the 151s hired two years ago are left ?

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a 151?

vroll1800
04-10-2018, 03:01 PM
Excuse my ignorance, but what is a 151?

The 5 digit employee number of all (or at least most) ABX pilots hired since 2016 begin with "151". Hence, the "151ers".

Locke
04-10-2018, 03:16 PM
The 5 digit employee number of all (or at least most) ABX pilots hired since 2016 begin with "151". Hence, the "151ers".

Ahh gotcha. Thanks

Reactivity
04-10-2018, 07:16 PM
The 5 digit employee number of all (or at least most) ABX pilots hired since 2016 begin with "151". Hence, the "151ers".

They're six-digit numbers, but who's counting?

Industry Strnd
04-20-2018, 07:40 PM
Atlas southern some of the worst paid, Co sues the pilots no new cba....

Now ATSG may try the same BS at ATI and ABX......if you're a pilot looking, my advice stay away from all ACMI until they get with the rest of the industry and pay appropriately.

Industry Strnd
04-25-2018, 06:33 AM
Based off some of the threads in cargo it seems management has created some accounts to try and bury the truth of how bad it is at ACMI.

Industry Strnd
05-01-2018, 10:49 AM
Brand spanking new contract and still can't find pilots!

Colt45
05-04-2018, 01:11 PM
No KCM for a non home-based airline, thatís stupid. Even ATI uses KCM.
ATI is better than ABX for all those reasons, and we are hiring because ABX sucks for all those reasons. Not many pilots are leaving ATI. The trips are usually 16 on 12 off and I havenít been jr assigned in over 8 years.
ABX isnít even hiring


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I would go to Kalitta. Good pay, schedule, choice of aircraft, maintenance, training, managers, etc.. but don't come to K4 if you're arrogant, socially awkward, argumentative, etc... We have a great group of guys here and I'm tired of flying with some of these type A dip****s who think 2,000 hrs of PIC time in an RJ is impressive.

Industry Strnd
05-05-2018, 04:10 AM
Did OMNI pass their TA? You know the one that has higher rates than ATI?

Asci
05-05-2018, 06:52 AM
Food for thought.
Within the next 5 years 1/3 of the ATI seniority list will retire. In 10 years about half of the seniority list will retire.
I suspect the numbers are similliar for ABX.
A lot of the ď151ísĒ and other younger pilots will probably also move on in the next 5 years as well.
There could be a very different pilot culture driving these airlines in the next few years.
JH is also at the end of his career. He could quit at any time. Maybe the whole dynamic will change.

mukalel
05-05-2018, 09:04 AM
Food for thought.
Within the next 5 years 1/3 of the ATI seniority list will retire. In 10 years about half of the seniority list will retire.
I suspect the numbers are similliar for ABX.
A lot of the ď151ísĒ and other younger pilots will probably also move on in the next 5 years as well.
There could be a very different pilot culture driving these airlines in the next few years.
JH is also at the end of his career. He could quit at any time. Maybe the whole dynamic will change.

And until that happens its best to stay away... if at all possible...

GunnerV
05-05-2018, 10:09 AM
Did OMNI pass their TA? You know the one that has higher rates than ATI?

Sure did. New rates are posted in the profiles section. And yes, they are higher that ATI's.

Stimpy the Kat
05-05-2018, 12:28 PM
SEE NEW THREAD: " The ONE Major Reason You DO work for an ACMI Carrier . "

Thanks.

Stimpson

Industry Strnd
05-11-2018, 05:14 PM
Looks like Jet Blue has a new TA. The list is growing of carriers that have a contract better than ATI, ABX, and Atlas Southern! ....chime in alpa management ATI saying how swell of a job it is there choosing from a 16 dayso in a row trip schedule or a 16 dayso in a row schedule.

Jurassic Jet
05-11-2018, 05:30 PM
\chime in alpa management

They'll be back with you soon. They are on vacation on their off days. :D:p

Industry Strnd
05-23-2018, 06:11 PM
More acmi planes parked....acmi world shutting down fast. So far not one has a contract even close to a real airline.

Industry Strnd
07-02-2018, 01:49 PM
Yep Spirit, Jet Blue, Allegiant still have more pay, retirement and better work rules than any ACMI. Why come here and quit? Nearly 50% quit in the first 2 years. Some don't even make it 3 months before getting a taste of ready reserve and being required to work on days off! No upgrades in over a year and none in sight! Contracts ATIs new deal is worse than all ACMI, ABX the Co isn't serious about a real deal, they still think people want to work for less than everyone else in the industry!

johnny150
07-02-2018, 02:21 PM
The last upgrade class at ABX has been well over a year ago, the most junior DOH was in 1996.... 22 year upgrade, currently the absolute worse airline regarding upgrade time.


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Industry Strnd
07-02-2018, 02:44 PM
Maybe thats why several 20 plus year fo's have quit too. They don't see upgrade anytime soon. I mean really 20 years no up grade and you give up 20 years to start at the bottom elsewhere. If you'try reading this and still thinking ABX is a good choice....you must have a really bad flying record! Even K4 with a bad cba has 2 year upgrades!

johnny150
07-02-2018, 02:54 PM
Envoy will hire you day 1 into the left seat...


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Industry Strnd
07-02-2018, 07:52 PM
Yes Envoy does hire left seat with a $50k signing bonus!

point432
07-03-2018, 04:27 AM
Maybe thats why several 20 plus year fo's have quit too. They don't see upgrade anytime soon. I mean really 20 years no up grade and you give up 20 years to start at the bottom elsewhere. If you'try reading this and still thinking ABX is a good choice....you must have a really bad flying record! Even K4 with a bad cba has 2 year upgrades!



Only bc Connie lets people see into the future while our pilots get a magic 8 ball. [emoji12] Tell your guys your plans...making them feel like they are a part of something. Even if it is 2 yr upgrades at an ACMI.


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No Land 3
07-05-2018, 05:41 PM
Maybe thats why several 20 plus year fo's have quit too. They don't see upgrade anytime soon. I mean really 20 years no up grade and you give up 20 years to start at the bottom elsewhere. If you'try reading this and still thinking ABX is a good choice....you must have a really bad flying record! Even K4 with a bad cba has 2 year upgrades!

Bad CBA? Name anywhere else where a first year FO makes 130k without trying? By third year with an upgrade, between 200 to 300k, and some of the best health care in the industry?
Guess it helps your position to list all ACMI contracts as crap, but then I have to question why you haven't already left?

Industry Strnd
07-06-2018, 07:33 AM
101x 64 = 77k a year not 130 and you already have less days off than most regionals so if your saying working on days off to make more, in addition to 17 days in a row there lies a problem. Hows the 401k? Bottom feeder? How much sick time do you get? Hows the trip trading? Did you vote for alpa too? Hows that working out? Can't wait till contract time.

jungle driver
07-06-2018, 10:39 AM
101x 64 = 77k a year not 130 and you already have less days off than most regionals so if your saying working on days off to make more, in addition to 17 days in a row there lies a problem. Hows the 401k? Bottom feeder? How much sick time do you get? Hows the trip trading? Did you vote for alpa too? Hows that working out? Can't wait till contract time.

just some quick math might help you figure this one out...

$130,000/yr equals approx. 1,287 hours of credit for the year. divided by 12 months is 107 hours of credit per month. divided by 17 days of work equals 6.3 hours of credit per day. one 6.3 hour flight per day or one 12.6 hour flight every other day seems more than reasonable and that if everything you fly is straight pay nothing at time and a half. So it seems completely possible to me that someone could make $130,000/yr without putting in many if any extra days.

nitefr8dog
07-06-2018, 01:15 PM
just some quick math might help you figure this one out...

$130,000/yr equals approx. 1,287 hours of credit for the year. divided by 12 months is 107 hours of credit per month. divided by 17 days of work equals 6.3 hours of credit per day. one 6.3 hour flight per day or one 12.6 hour flight every other day seems more than reasonable and that if everything you fly is straight pay nothing at time and a half. So it seems completely possible to me that someone could make $130,000/yr without putting in many if any extra days.
Most contracts are negotiated at straight pay...in your case 64hrs a month. We can all work the system to make 200k to 400k but in the end base pay is all you can count on or are guaranteed. The other numbers mean nothing. And if you settled for low numbers now with every airline in the world looking for pilots your company if laughing and you got screwed.

No Land 3
07-06-2018, 01:23 PM
101x 64 = 77k a year not 130 and you already have less days off than most regionals so if your saying working on days off to make more, in addition to 17 days in a row there lies a problem. Hows the 401k? Bottom feeder? How much sick time do you get? Hows the trip trading? Did you vote for alpa too? Hows that working out? Can't wait till contract time.
ALPA so far has been very professional, way more organized, and structured than Teamsters. The same people who worked hard to get our industry leading pay have put their names in the hat.
I highly suggest you quit your job and go straight away to a regional, it seems you have no experience or have forgotten what their schedules are like... I'm vacationing in the Smokey Mountains right now on days off, not even touching my vacation days. I'll be here for 6 days, good luck doing that at a regional or any pax operator that does four day trips, home for 3, etc...

boeingdvr
07-07-2018, 01:55 AM
ALPA so far has been very professional, way more organized, and structured than Teamsters. The same people who worked hard to get our industry leading pay have put their names in the hat.
I highly suggest you quit your job and go straight away to a regional, it seems you have no experience or have forgotten what their schedules are like... I'm vacationing in the Smokey Mountains right now on days off, not even touching my vacation days. I'll be here for 6 days, good luck doing that at a regional or any pax operator that does four day trips, home for 3, etc...

Are you sure ? I could of swore you were just comparing yourself to a robot " just landed in JFK from Europe, now on to ORD"

Yes, I'm sure Fed, Delta, UPS pilots all sit around the table and say " hmmm I really like what kallita has in their contract"

Let's get real man. Glad you like flying around the globe over and over and over again ( during the same trip ) but kallita's contract isn't setting the high bar.

No Land 3
07-07-2018, 04:01 AM
Are you sure ? I could of swore you were just comparing yourself to a robot " just landed in JFK from Europe, now on to ORD"

Yes, I'm sure Fed, Delta, UPS pilots all sit around the table and say " hmmm I really like what kallita has in their contract"

Let's get real man. Glad you like flying around the globe over and over and over again ( during the same trip ) but kallita's contract isn't setting the high bar.
It is for ACMI. We don't do the same flying or even the same mission as Fed Ex and UPS. Like comparing road racing to drag...
As for the other pilot groups, they gave our guy a standing ovation at an ALPA meeting.
Comparing myself to a robot? Not I

Industry Strnd
07-07-2018, 07:03 AM
ALPA so far has been very professional, way more organized, and structured than Teamsters. The same people who worked hard to get our industry leading pay have put their names in the hat.
I highly suggest you quit your job and go straight away to a regional, it seems you have no experience or have forgotten what their schedules are like... I'm vacationing in the Smokey Mountains right now on days off, not even touching my vacation days. I'll be here for 6 days, good luck doing that at a regional or any pax operator that does four day trips, home for 3, etc...

Sounds like a great life on vacation posting on apc company man trying to fill classes with unsuspecting pilots.

Stimpy the Kat
07-07-2018, 08:26 AM
".. our industry leading pay.."

Uh, sorry but, that statement is nothing short of Delusional.

Seriously...It's a fairly decent pay scale but, it is nowhere near Industry Leading.

Unless you are comparing it to a different Industry than airlines/aviation. (?)



Stimpy

No Land 3
07-07-2018, 01:49 PM
".. our industry leading pay.."

Uh, sorry but, that statement is nothing short of Delusional.

Seriously...It's a fairly decent pay scale but, it is nowhere near Industry Leading.

Unless you are comparing it to a different Industry than airlines/aviation. (?)



Stimpy

ACMI
Unsuspecting pilots? Funny, most new guys admit that they hired on as a stepping stone then come to find that they don't want to go anywhere else. I understand the rest of the ACMI world is a bitter bunch and I want nothing more than for them to get a contract better than we have, so we can have leverage in negotiations next go around.
Company man? I'm sure things were much worse before I hired on, but 99% of my existence at K4 has been under the new contract, and if I had to identify an "us vs them" relationship, it would primarily be between travel and the pilots. In my own personal experience, 95% of the time I have no issues. Shenanigans and games do happen to many people but being very polite and being a politician can get you to an agreeable solution.
I mean really, it boils down to the company needing to complete flights, schedulers filling the roster for that flight, travel getting pilots into position, and the pilots seeing $$$$ signs. Everyone is working towards the same end goal.

No Land 3
07-07-2018, 06:42 PM
https://i.imgflip.com/2dlnid.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/2dlnid)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

sky jet
07-08-2018, 03:02 AM
We have at least one pilot and some ground staff at K4 who have mentally or emotionally challenged children. Apparently you have been living under a rock for the last twenty years and don't know how offensive your "cartoon" will be to them. I'm going to suggest you delete your post before you have to share a cockpit with them.

No Land 3
07-08-2018, 04:05 AM
We have at least one pilot and some ground staff at K4 who have mentally or emotionally challenged children. Apparently you have been living under a rock for the last twenty years and don't know how offensive your "cartoon" will be to them. I'm going to suggest you delete your post before you have to share a cockpit with them.
I would if I could, a mod must do it past 30 minutes.

nitefr8dog
07-08-2018, 04:20 AM
I would if I could, a mod must do it past 30 minutes.
Nice...................

Littlebird
07-08-2018, 04:42 AM
https://i.imgflip.com/2dlnid.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/2dlnid)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)

Way to go. Must feel real good about yourself mr. land 3

No Land 3
07-08-2018, 06:24 AM
Way to go. Must feel real good about yourself mr. land 3

There is at least two pilots at K4 with special needs children, I am one of them, and this cartoon does not offend me due to the context. However out of the wishes of others, I would delete it if I could.

nitefr8dog
07-08-2018, 06:28 AM
There is at least two pilots at K4 with special needs children, I am one of them, and this cartoon does not offend me due to the context. However out of the wishes of others, I would delete it if I could.
Wow...just wow

No Land 3
07-08-2018, 07:05 AM
Wow...just wow

I'm sorry, what experience do you have that overrides my own to be judgemental in this case?

nitefr8dog
07-08-2018, 02:35 PM
I'm sorry, what experience do you have that overrides my own to be judgemental in this case?

Ck your pm

Industry Strnd
07-18-2018, 12:31 PM
Is there anything to see here anything changed? Or are acmi carriers still treating pilots like they are a burden not an asset?

johnny150
07-18-2018, 12:44 PM
Is there anything to see here anything changed? Or are acmi carriers still treating pilots like they are a burden not an asset?



Abx treats there pilots like burdens, we donít even have KCM, itís almost as if they want us to suffer as we go through security...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Industry Strnd
07-18-2018, 12:57 PM
[QUOTE=johnny150;2637577]Abx treats there pilots like burdens, we donít even have KCM, itís almost as if they want us to suffer as we go through security...


Yeah even jump seating on company aircraft they have your bags searched and wanded down. Yet if abx pilot jump seats on atlas no search. It's like some management guy wants to hassle a commuter or ....not take the time to change the policy. It's always defaulted to how to inconvience the pilot.

point432
07-18-2018, 01:35 PM
[QUOTE=johnny150;2637577]Abx treats there pilots like burdens, we donít even have KCM, itís almost as if they want us to suffer as we go through security...


Yeah even jump seating on company aircraft they have your bags searched and wanded down. Yet if abx pilot jump seats on atlas no search. It's like some management guy wants to hassle a commuter or ....not take the time to change the policy. It's always defaulted to how to inconvience the pilot.

I think Miami and LA are the worst. Miami you're the pilots flying and they're trying to take stuff. "Yeah, the corkscrew has a 2" blade. You want to take it or not? Last time you didn't." I'm never that mean about it, but now that corkscrew was taken in Monterrey by security. Only took them a year and a half to determine this was the day to protect me.

But LA, I don't see the difference. Do it for all or don't do it at all! I thinks it demeaning to make fellow coworkers stand outside the plane and open all their bags. At ABX, we live in a twilight zone of outdated policies and procedures. Welcome to the fun of ACMI!

nitefr8dog
07-18-2018, 03:33 PM
[QUOTE=Industry Strnd;2637589]

I think Miami and LA are the worst. Miami you're the pilots flying and they're trying to take stuff. "Yeah, the corkscrew has a 2" blade. You want to take it or not? Last time you didn't." I'm never that mean about it, but now that corkscrew was taken in Monterrey by security. Only took them a year and a half to determine this was the day to protect me.

But LA, I don't see the difference. Do it for all or don't do it at all! I thinks it demeaning to make fellow coworkers stand outside the plane and open all their bags. At ABX, we live in a twilight zone of outdated policies and procedures. Welcome to the fun of ACMI!
In LA....I have them rifle thru my bags inside the building. Especially if it's raining. They will do it if you ask.

nitefr8dog
07-18-2018, 03:36 PM
[QUOTE=Industry Strnd;2637589]

I think Miami and LA are the worst. Miami you're the pilots flying and they're trying to take stuff. "Yeah, the corkscrew has a 2" blade. You want to take it or not? Last time you didn't." I'm never that mean about it, but now that corkscrew was taken in Monterrey by security. Only took them a year and a half to determine this was the day to protect me.

But LA, I don't see the difference. Do it for all or don't do it at all! I thinks it demeaning to make fellow coworkers stand outside the plane and open all their bags. At ABX, we live in a twilight zone of outdated policies and procedures. Welcome to the fun of ACMI!
I lost a few corkscrews in Monterrey over the yrs....a cigar cutter too. I asked them if they thought I was going to circumcise the FO with it....they did not get it.

point432
07-18-2018, 04:08 PM
[QUOTE=point432;2637616]
I lost a few corkscrews in Monterrey over the yrs....a cigar cutter too. I asked them if they thought I was going to circumcise the FO with it....they did not get it.

Lol! Nice!

johnny150
07-18-2018, 05:23 PM
ABX crews still use paper charts. Does anyone know how many operators still use paper charts? That should be reason enough to work at a different place!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Industry Strnd
07-18-2018, 06:12 PM
How days off guranteed? Zero all days subject to JR mann!

Is there a limit to the number of days you can be required to sit ready reserve at the airport and not allowed to leave for food? No reserves can be required to work ready reserve an un limited number of days a month or in a row.

nitefr8dog
07-19-2018, 04:05 AM
How days off guranteed? Zero all days subject to JR mann!

Is there a limit to the number of days you can be required to sit ready reserve at the airport and not allowed to leave for food? No reserves can be required to work ready reserve an un limited number of days a month or in a row.
Limit...24/7

Industry Strnd
07-19-2018, 04:24 AM
Limit...24/7

And many times the 24/7 is on the road. Just look at the schedulesame every month and the cpt who in 2016 worked 60 some days straight!

nitefr8dog
07-19-2018, 08:11 AM
And many times the 24/7 is on the road. Just look at the schedulesame every month and the cpt who in 2016 worked 60 some days straight!
Cha ching!

flyguy23
07-19-2018, 08:18 AM
Cha ching!

More times than not, the money isnt worth it.

nitefr8dog
07-19-2018, 12:01 PM
More times than not, the money isnt worth it.
It's usually the main reason people are working these $hi# schedules and willing to have a job that takes them away from their families for weeks at a time...money! It's also the biggest roadblock in contract talks. Otherwise we would already have a K4 or Omni contract.

tiredofjrm
07-19-2018, 02:17 PM
They work more to make more. But then they are never home, and the spouse leaves them. So the extra 30% they were making, is actually a 20% pay cut.
We need to make it so expensive that they have to hire enough people to cover all the flights. Iím not getting a divorce because of ABX.

Industry Strnd
07-19-2018, 03:56 PM
Some came here to ABX Air an ATSG company with hopes that Amazon Prime Air was going to pan out and be something big and it has not and doesn't seem to be for several years down the road. Over 50% have left so far and others are trying to leave as quickly as possible. Ask yourself these questions.

Do you really want to work for a company that takes concessions from Pilots to stay alive then becomes very profitable gives management bonuses and raises their salaries yet drags out contract negotiations for three and a half years for Pilots?

Do you want to work for a company that demands you be lower-paid than everyone else in the industry to get flying? even the Regionals don't do that anymore.

Do you want to work for a company ABX air Inc that just six months ago threatened to furlough Pilots at the beginning of 2018?

Do you want to work for a company ABX Air, that is in Jeopardy of losing half of its flying with DHL if they can't reach a pilot agreement?

Do you want to work for a company that has over 50 fos with 20-plus years seniority that have never had the chance to upgrade?

Do you want to work for a company that has an upgraded anybody in over a year?

No Land 3
07-19-2018, 04:02 PM
Some came here to ABX Air an ATSG company with hopes that Amazon Prime Air was going to pan out and be something big and it has not and doesn't seem to be for several years down the road. Over 50% have left so far and others are trying to leave as quickly as possible. Ask yourself these questions.

Do you really want to work for a company that takes concessions from Pilots to stay alive then becomes very profitable gives management bonuses and raises their salaries yet drags out contract negotiations for three and a half years for Pilots?

Do you want to work for a company that demands you be lower-paid than everyone else in the industry to get flying? even the Regionals don't do that anymore.

Do you want to work for a company ABX air Inc that just six months ago threatened to furlough Pilots at the beginning of 2018?

Do you want to work for a company ABX Air, that is in Jeopardy of losing half of its flying with DHL if they can't reach a pilot agreement?

Do you want to work for a company that has over 50 fos with 20-plus years seniority that have never had the chance to upgrade?

Do you want to work for a company that has an upgraded anybody in over a year?

Was just talking to a regional CA the other day who told me that he was considering ATI because he thinks Amazon may buy them out, and would love to be on the ground floor of that airline.
It seems you need to target the regional guys better with your message.

johnny150
07-19-2018, 04:09 PM
Do you want to work for an airline where the latest captain upgrade had a date of hire in 1996!!! With 0 plans for upgrade in anytime soon...

zerozero
07-19-2018, 06:13 PM
Was just talking to a regional CA the other day who told me that he was considering ATI because he thinks Amazon may buy them out, and would love to be on the ground floor of that airline.
It seems you need to target the regional guys better with your message.

I can help.

All one needs to do is look at Amazon's most recent acquisitions and then "compare and contrast".

PillPack $1+ Billion
Ring $1+ Billion
WholeFoods $13.7 Billion

Who saw any of those coming? NO ONE. They were like bolts of lightening from a clear blue sky.

That's how Amazon acquires companies. Not they way they're playing the ATI, ABX, Atlas game.

Amazon could have Atlas for just under $2 Billion. And yet, they won't drop more than a few million on the stock. That's it.

A buyout is pure fantasy. And if someone is banking their whole career on that, they deserve what they get.

Industry Strnd
07-19-2018, 07:35 PM
https://www.constructiondive.com/news/amazon-building-15b-global-hub-at-cincinnati-area-airport/522729/

Full build out to take 7 years. Can you see working at ATI or any acmi for 7 years at below industry rates and virtually no retirement (16 days in a row). Even pilots without degrees could be a captain at Spirit in 2 years with rates over $200 an hour, 85 hours credit each month and 15% retirement.

Plus ATSG won't sell off just ATI. Thats 30% of revenue. I swear pilots don't rarley read any investment news or use logic.

Amazon owns the right to 30% of Atlas stock they would get more planes and pilots and a better run operation for cheaper. IF they buy anyone, I'd venture to say it will be Atlas.

nitefr8dog
07-20-2018, 03:32 AM
They work more to make more. But then they are never home, and the spouse leaves them. So the extra 30% they were making, is actually a 20% pay cut.
We need to make it so expensive that they have to hire enough people to cover all the flights. Iím not getting a divorce because of ABX.
I think we did that in 2016-2017.

Industry Strnd
07-24-2018, 11:51 PM
I think we did that in 2016-2017.

Has anyone done a study of acmi pilots? Divorce rate for being gone 10-20 days in a row? Working 17 st then being Jr manned for 5 more days at the end?

What the life expectancy after working years of night flying? Swapping back and forth between day and night sleep, no 117 rest rules?

How about the catering? That can take its toll?

nitefr8dog
07-25-2018, 03:02 AM
Has anyone done a study of acmi pilots? Divorce rate for being gone 10-20 days in a row? Working 17 st then being Jr manned for 5 more days at the end?

What the life expectancy after working years of night flying? Swapping back and forth between day and night sleep, no 117 rest rules?

How about the catering? That can take its toll?
From what my friend's at the pax carriers tell me it's about the same...maybe higher divorces with the FA issue at the pax carriers. Also longer layovers in freight can mean more chances to exercise and eat better....

Industry Strnd
07-25-2018, 04:45 AM
From what my friend's at the pax carriers tell me it's about the same...maybe higher divorces with the FA issue at the pax carriers. Also longer layovers in freight can mean more chances to exercise and eat better....

Eat better lol yeah right have you seen the catering in Mexico and central America? Quit trying to mislead pilots into thinking it's this glamorous job. Your can't put lipstick on a pig and think it looks hot!

If you are successful in talking anyone into coming to ATI or ABX there is a greater than 50% chance they will quit within the first 2 years or ....or 2 months as we have seen several times!

gumpscheck
07-25-2018, 05:09 AM
From what my friend's at the pax carriers tell me it's about the same...maybe higher divorces with the FA issue at the pax carriers. Also longer layovers in freight can mean more chances to exercise and eat better....

Longer layovers??? If you call a layover of just 11 hours after flying the whole night through out Central America and then continuing to CVG and on to the West Coast longer, I have news for you. BTW, working out with a tired body is worse than not working out at all. You are more prone to injuries. You mentioned eating better. Have you seen the catering at ABX? I suspect the catering is awesome at Kalitta or Atlas, but ABX is the bottom of the barrel.

Donít try to put a spin on the reality at ABX. That place is toxic.

nitefr8dog
07-25-2018, 05:43 AM
Eat better lol yeah right have you seen the catering in Mexico and central America? Quit trying to mislead pilots into thinking it's this glamorous job. Your can't put lipstick on a pig and think it looks hot!

If you are successful in talking anyone into coming to ATI or ABX there is a greater than 50% chance they will quit within the first 2 years or ....or 2 months as we have seen several times!
Eat better as in a longer layover to source out a healthy meal and NOT eat the catering. In a previous life with 2 pax carriers 8 -10 HR layovers were common. We have plenty of 20+ hr layovers. I am not tryingto make this job glamorous....just stating what I have experienced. You asked the question....if you did not want to hear what people have to say if it differs from what you think why ask? And I certain am not saying ABX is not a hole it is....

nitefr8dog
07-25-2018, 05:51 AM
Longer layovers??? If you call a layover of just 11 hours after flying the whole night through out Central America and then continuing to CVG and on to the West Coast longer, I have news for you. BTW, working out with a tired body is worse than not working out at all. You are more prone to injuries. You mentioned eating better. Have you seen the catering at ABX? I suspect the catering is awesome at Kalitta or Atlas, but ABX is the bottom of the barrel.

Donít try to put a spin on the reality at ABX. That place is toxic.
Again my opinion....also my comment was in regards to NOT eating the catering ABX, K4, 5Y...does not mater its all horible for you....loaded with sodium and preservatives. Yes ABX just like all the carriers have some short layovers...I bid away from them. Again this is my experience my opinion. You do not have to agree with it but it is what it is.

nitefr8dog
07-25-2018, 06:00 AM
Longer layovers??? If you call a layover of just 11 hours after flying the whole night through out Central America and then continuing to CVG and on to the West Coast longer, I have news for you. BTW, working out with a tired body is worse than not working out at all. You are more prone to injuries. You mentioned eating better. Have you seen the catering at ABX? I suspect the catering is awesome at Kalitta or Atlas, but ABX is the bottom of the barrel.

Donít try to put a spin on the reality at ABX. That place is toxic.
Also just how do you think this works? Everything is available...for a price. We can have exactly what K4, ATI etc have . Catering , homebaseing the cost? 18 to 24 duty days, 10k max 401k match instead of 7.5% gross pay up to 19.5K IRS max. No reassignment pay, horible Disabilty pay, low pay increase with a signing bonus instead of FULL retro, just to name a few. Again how do you think this works?

Industry Strnd
07-25-2018, 12:23 PM
Also just how do you think this works? Everything is available...for a price. We can have exactly what K4, ATI etc have . Catering , homebaseing the cost? 18 to 24 duty days, 10k max 401k match instead of 7.5% gross pay up to 19.5K IRS max. No reassignment pay, horible Disabilty pay, low pay increase with a signing bonus instead of FULL retro, just to name a few. Again how do you think this works?
It works by holding the line and demanding ACMI pay like the rest of the industry. You think Amazon can't pay more? They pay FedEx and UPS alot more. You think DHL can't pay more?
The only thing holding back industry standard contracts at acmi are weak pilots who buy management BS.
It's ok though you can stay working for less because ABX 1224 and Atlas 1224 are holding the line and you're only 1 vote so keep pushing to stay behind everyone else.

4runner
07-25-2018, 01:18 PM
One word. The Soap. Nuffí said.

nitefr8dog
07-25-2018, 05:21 PM
It works by holding the line and demanding ACMI pay like the rest of the industry. You think Amazon can't pay more? They pay FedEx and UPS alot more. You think DHL can't pay more?
The only thing holding back industry standard contracts at acmi are weak pilots who buy management BS.
It's ok though you can stay working for less because ABX 1224 and Atlas 1224 are holding the line and you're only 1 vote so keep pushing to stay behind everyone else.
Who said anything about accepting less.....K4 got a new contract because they were willing to accept things we are not willing to. You go on about catering....I say more money....rea pay....higher 401k match...full retro..the things K4 was willing to settle a contact without. 2$ an hour per diem! How about flying to China for 30$ per diem! It's all about whats important to you...a piece of rat meat shoe leather full of sodium and nitrates is not worth a lowball pay raise to me.

goinaround
07-25-2018, 05:37 PM
Who said anything about accepting less.....K4 got a new contract because they were willing to accept things we are not willing to. You go on about catering....I say more money....rea pay....higher 401k match...full retro..the things K4 was willing to settle a contact without. 2$ an hour per diem! How about flying to China for 30$ per diem! It's all about whats important to you...a piece of rat meat shoe leather full of sodium and nitrates is not worth a lowball pay raise to me.

A quick lap around airlinepilotcentral.com tells me K4 gets $2.90/hr intl....so around 70 bucks.

nitefr8dog
07-25-2018, 06:15 PM
A quick lap around airlinepilotcentral.com tells me K4 gets $2.90/hr intl....so around 70 bucks.
Based on duty day or TAFB? 15 hr duty day at $2.90 is closer to 45 bucks. Either way it sucks.

sky jet
07-25-2018, 06:27 PM
Based on duty day or TAFB? 15 hr duty day at $2.90 is closer to 45 bucks. Either way it sucks.

Based on 24 hours. We get per diem from the time we leave for work until we get home. If I choose to eat one (or two depending on the length of the flight) meals on the plane I can usually pocket most of my per diem.The first and last day are a full 24 hours of per diem regardless of when we leave or arrive. Could our rates be better? Sure, but they are significantly better than what you are stating. I appreciate what you are trying to do with your post but 50% of what you put out there about K4 is simply wrong. You make your argument less compelling when you base it on falsehoods.

goinaround
07-25-2018, 06:34 PM
I just looked up Delta Air Lines (two words) perdiem......also $2.90 intl. And a 65 hour guarantee. Also no housing during training. How are they getting pilots over there? :D

nitefr8dog
07-26-2018, 04:42 AM
Based on 24 hours. We get per diem from the time we leave for work until we get home. If I choose to eat one (or two depending on the length of the flight) meals on the plane I can usually pocket most of my per diem.The first and last day are a full 24 hours of per diem regardless of when we leave or arrive. Could our rates be better? Sure, but they are significantly better than what you are stating. I appreciate what you are trying to do with your post but 50% of what you put out there about K4 is simply wrong. You make your argument less compelling when you base it on falsehoods.
I think that is why I asked TAFB or duty hrs ....to clarify. It is not spelled out on APC. And whether something I state as my opinion is wrong or not like having no retirement or schedule protection a lowball pay raise might hurt you to hear it but it is my opinion.

HercDriver130
07-26-2018, 06:45 AM
I think that is why I asked TAFB or duty hrs ....to clarify. It is not spelled out on APC. And whether something I state as my opinion is wrong or not like having no retirement or schedule protection a lowball pay raise might hurt you to hear it but it is my opinion.

If you really believe that a 58% immediate pay raise.. and 90% over 4 years were lowball pay rates then you and I live in different universes. ALL per diem is paid in full days including your travel days if they are on days off. ANY day which has an international segment pays the entire day at INTL rates. OH.. and we get paid DH rates for our domestic commutes to work up to 5 hours ( 2.5 hours paid ), for most guys thats 4-5 hours of soft pay extra each month commuting to and from work. The contract signed in 2016 was a huge leap forward for this pilot group, are there things lacking yes, and they will be addressed in a little over 2 years. NO company out there with a good/great contract got it all at once... no one... not DELTA, United, UPS or FEDEX... they chipped away at mgt over many cycles. Best of luck to both Atlas and ABX as they move forward in the contract struggles... set the bar high, so we have something to shoot for.

Stimpy the Kat
07-26-2018, 08:13 AM
" Your can't put lipstick on a pig and think it looks hot! "

Depends on the Pig...

:)

El Stimpo

Lockheed
07-26-2018, 08:37 AM
" Your can't put lipstick on a pig and think it looks hot! "

Depends on the Pig...

:)

El Stimpo

hmmmm bacon

nitefr8dog
07-26-2018, 11:28 AM
If you really believe that a 58% immediate pay raise.. and 90% over 4 years were lowball pay rates then you and I live in different universes. ALL per diem is paid in full days including your travel days if they are on days off. ANY day which has an international segment pays the entire day at INTL rates. OH.. and we get paid DH rates for our domestic commutes to work up to 5 hours ( 2.5 hours paid ), for most guys thats 4-5 hours of soft pay extra each month commuting to and from work. The contract signed in 2016 was a huge leap forward for this pilot group, are there things lacking yes, and they will be addressed in a little over 2 years. NO company out there with a good/great contract got it all at once... no one... not DELTA, United, UPS or FEDEX... they chipped away at mgt over many cycles. Best of luck to both Atlas and ABX as they move forward in the contract struggles... set the bar high, so we have something to shoot for.
As my earlier posts said.....k4 pay has sucked forever. So any raise would look good. Starting at regional pay and adding 60% blows...again this is just my opinion it is what it is. You do not have to agree as I really don't care.

goinaround
07-26-2018, 11:35 AM
As my earlier posts said.....k4 pay has sucked forever. So any raise would look good. Starting at regional pay and adding 60% blows...again this is just my opinion it is what it is. You do not have to agree as I really don't care.

Well I don't know if you've seen what our Abex NC is negotiating for....but I really think you're throwing stones from a glass house at this point.

nitefr8dog
07-26-2018, 05:17 PM
Well I don't know if you've seen what our Abex NC is negotiating for....but I really think you're throwing stones from a glass house at this point.
If that's the end result I have no problem saying it blows too!

Industry Strnd
08-01-2018, 12:32 AM
Reason 101 finally ....4 am is "midday" in the work day!

No Land 3
08-01-2018, 12:39 AM
Reason 101 finally ....4 am is "midday" in the work day!

Right now it's my bed time, only to wake up four hours later then sleep in middle of day. Should only take 5 days at home to recalibrate.

ocskyguy
08-05-2018, 10:33 PM
Usually don't post the same argument on different threads, but...


There are intangibles that go far beyond compensation.


Okay, we have a pretty cool deal for commutes. But, it certainly could be better. Particularly if you live far from the first day trip. And, it kind of sucks when you have to jumpseat to YIP to see some jerk like me in the simulator to prove you still have your **** together.


But, there is more to this place than you see in a contract...


I generally don't reveal personal details on the internet. But, a story to explain why I became a lifer here. I had the unfortunate experience of having a child who almost died while I was on a trip. The voice on the end of the phone said "We got you a ticket. Go home." No discussion of who would cover the trip (leaving in less than 6 hours, that eventually cancelled). And, they never took a day of sick time while I was home. Try that at Delta and see where it gets you. Just sayin'

nitefr8dog
08-06-2018, 05:29 AM
Usually don't post the same argument on different threads, but...


There are intangibles that go far beyond compensation.


Okay, we have a pretty cool deal for commutes. But, it certainly could be better. Particularly if you live far from the first day trip. And, it kind of sucks when you have to jumpseat to YIP to see some jerk like me in the simulator to prove you still have your **** together.


But, there is more to this place than you see in a contract...


I generally don't reveal personal details on the internet. But, a story to explain why I became a lifer here. I had the unfortunate experience of having a child who almost died while I was on a trip. The voice on the end of the phone said "We got you a ticket. Go home." No discussion of who would cover the trip (leaving in less than 6 hours, that eventually cancelled). And, they never took a day of sick time while I was home. Try that at Delta and see where it gets you. Just sayin'
I cannot think of a time when someone called in a simular situation that the company said anything except we will get you a ticket home. As it should be.

tiredofjrm
08-06-2018, 10:32 PM
Sounds like that was back in the airborne days.

nitefr8dog
08-07-2018, 04:28 AM
Sounds like that was back in the airborne days.
No...I know of 2 situations in the last year. Thankfully there has not been a need for more.

Kougarok
08-07-2018, 05:13 AM
ABX has always been very good with family issues.

Red Baron
08-07-2018, 05:24 AM
Yeah, they deeply cared about our families in 2009 didn't they...Ö

Kougarok
08-07-2018, 07:36 AM
Yeah, they deeply cared about our families in 2009 didn't they...Ö

I was talking about death and injuries.

mukalel
08-08-2018, 02:46 AM
I was talking about death and injuries.

Yeah abx just cancelled a crew members short term disability without even telling them and then had the balls to fight the crewmemeber on it.. shows a lot about caring for injuries and death.. lol ...

Kougarok
08-09-2018, 07:44 AM
Yeah abx just cancelled a crew members short term disability without even telling them and then had the balls to fight the crewmemeber on it.. shows a lot about caring for injuries and death.. lol ...

ABX probably didn’t cancel it. I am guessing the insurance company did. I’ve been on long term disability twice and FMLA once with zero problems.

If one our crew members got their disability insurance cancelled for no reason they need to consult the union Aeromedical Committee and lawyers.

tiredofjrm
08-09-2018, 07:58 AM
It was workers comp and not STD. And they did cancel it without telling him. Then they refused it after it was shown that he fractured his spine. ABX is self-insured. He now has a lawyer fighting it.
He did get short term disability approved after about 2 months.

motorclutch
08-09-2018, 08:28 AM
These heartless bastards really give two ****s about the employee. I wonder if the HR rep who denied workers comp has been personally ďservedĒas of yet?

4runner
08-09-2018, 09:38 AM
These heartless bastards really give two ****s about the employee. I wonder if the HR rep who denied workers comp has been personally ďservedĒas of yet?

Id love to see the face of folks when theyíre held accountable for ďfollowing policyĒ. I.E. served papers.

Kougarok
08-09-2018, 01:52 PM
It was workers comp and not STD. And they did cancel it without telling him. Then they refused it after it was shown that he fractured his spine. ABX is self-insured. He now has a lawyer fighting it.
He did get short term disability approved after about 2 months.

Well that sucks! Hope he wins.

Industry Strnd
08-19-2018, 11:33 AM
Well that sucks! Hope he wins.

Hearing rumors from ATI Pilots that they're having a difficult time getting hired elsewhere?

I guess when you work for a carrier that sells out for a cheap rate it carries a little bit of a stigma.

ke4lir
08-19-2018, 02:51 PM
Really dude!

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

ke4lir
08-19-2018, 02:51 PM
Hearing rumors from ATI Pilots that they're having a difficult time getting hired elsewhere?

I guess when you work for a carrier that sells out for a cheap rate it carries a little bit of a stigma.Really dude!

Sent from my Moto G (5S) Plus using Tapatalk

Bungalow
08-19-2018, 03:38 PM
Hearing rumors from ATI Pilots that they're having a difficult time getting hired elsewhere?

I guess when you work for a carrier that sells out for a cheap rate it carries a little bit of a stigma.

One would have to assume then, that many ABX and/or Atlas guys have great difficulty getting hired as well. Otherwise why would you, or them, still be at those airlines considering you bitterly and endlessly complain about your employer.
Say what you want, but at least the ATI guys seem content.

No Land 3
08-19-2018, 04:23 PM
One would have to assume then, that many ABX and/or Atlas guys have great difficulty getting hired as well. Otherwise why would you, or them, still be at those airlines considering you bitterly and endlessly complain about your employer.
Say what you want, but at least the ATI guys seem content.
The regional guys you hire will never want to walk away from home basing. I can't blame them, neither can I walk away from it!

Reactivity
08-19-2018, 05:21 PM
One would have to assume then, that many ABX and/or Atlas guys have great difficulty getting hired as well. Otherwise why would you, or them, still be at those airlines considering you bitterly and endlessly complain about your employer.
Say what you want, but at least the ATI guys seem content.

Well, Atlas at some point in the last year or so had something like 120 waiting on class dates at UPS, and FOs have been flying out of ABX at a rate fast enough that current hiring barely keeps up with attrition, so no difficulty for either one of them.

That said, major airline hiring seems to be slowing a bit (one in particular was forecasting 400 new hires this year, and may only hire 160), and contrary to popular lore, getting on anywhere other than a regional is not as easy as simply throwing an application in the general direction of any given airline.

And then there are those for whom making such a jump just doesn't make sense unless it's absolutely necessary, and kvetching fills the time and serves as a relief valve for the tension fueled by uncertainty and stupid management tricks.

No Land 3
08-20-2018, 03:53 AM
Well, Atlas at some point in the last year or so had something like 120 waiting on class dates at UPS, and FOs have been flying out of ABX at a rate fast enough that current hiring barely keeps up with attrition, so no difficulty for either one of them.

That said, major airline hiring seems to be slowing a bit (one in particular was forecasting 400 new hires this year, and may only hire 160), and contrary to popular lore, getting on anywhere other than a regional is not as easy as simply throwing an application in the general direction of any given airline.

And then there are those for whom making such a jump just doesn't make sense unless it's absolutely necessary, and kvetching fills the time and serves as a relief valve for the tension fueled by uncertainty and stupid management tricks.

You know, I would think it would be easier for an ABX guy to make the jump over to K4, and why not?

Reactivity
08-20-2018, 05:23 PM
You know, I would think it would be easier for an ABX guy to make the jump over to K4, and why not?

I know there are at least a few who are considering it.

GeelErmo
08-21-2018, 07:23 AM
I know there are at least a few who are considering it.
Well, consider 3. Phase 2 passed, waiting for an interview, yai...!

Industry Strnd
09-05-2018, 10:10 AM
Yep still no KCM , still jr manning, still 20 plus year upgrades, still parking airplanes! ATSG

2lowflaps
09-10-2018, 11:21 AM
Run Forest run!!!

Industry Strnd
09-15-2018, 08:38 AM
115 the reason just lost more planes!

MarkThyme
09-21-2018, 11:32 AM
Yep still no KCM

I cannot imagine the massive, collective orgasm that is about to occur.

Industry Strnd
11-01-2018, 12:16 AM
Did ATI run an Amazon airplane off the runway?

BluePAX
11-01-2018, 01:46 AM
Did ATI run an Amazon airplane off the runway?

Maybe you're thinking of Atlas running a DHL 747 off in CVG?

4runner
11-01-2018, 02:53 PM
There are no DHL 747ís

nitefr8dog
11-01-2018, 04:15 PM
Did ATI run an Amazon airplane off the runway?
Amazon does not have any airplanes....not yet

BluePAX
11-01-2018, 05:51 PM
There are no DHL 747ís

Correct. It was a DHL flight though

nitefr8dog
11-02-2018, 01:39 AM
Correct. It was a DHL flight though
Looked like a Polar/Atlas flight with DHL packages...

zerozero
11-12-2018, 07:26 PM
New stat:

Year to date, union at Atlas has filed 177 grievances.

Fedex: Five.

Reason #45,820 to not work at an ACMI carrier.

Palmtree Pilot
11-13-2018, 07:14 AM
New stat:

Year to date, union at Atlas has filed 177 grievances.

Fedex: Five.

Reason #45,820 to not work at an ACMI carrier.

Sounds like a reason to not work for ATLAS

HercDriver130
11-13-2018, 11:31 AM
New stat:

Year to date, union at Atlas has filed 177 grievances.

Fedex: Five.

Reason #45,820 to not work at an ACMI carrier.

FWIW.,,,,K4 has ZERO grievances outstanding with the company....

plift
11-13-2018, 11:36 AM
Is that cause they never violate the contract or because nobody bothers to call them out on it?

Locke
11-13-2018, 12:13 PM
Is that cause they never violate the contract or because nobody bothers to call them out on it?

They try, but the CP has been doing a great job of holding them to it. It generally only takes one call and they are back in line.

nitefr8dog
11-13-2018, 03:23 PM
New stat:

Year to date, union at Atlas has filed 177 grievances.

Fedex: Five.

Reason #45,820 to not work at an ACMI carrier.
Just guessing but I would bet ABX has that many or more....

nitefr8dog
11-13-2018, 03:24 PM
They try, but the CP has been doing a great job of holding them to it. It generally only takes one call and they are back in line.
And a CP with a spine....something ABX does not have. But we do have a CP with knee pads...

midwest1992
11-13-2018, 03:33 PM
Both our Chief Pilot as well as our assistant CP have earned the respect of the pilot group here at K4.
Both are part of the reason of ďno greviencesĒ because they back up the pilot group and hold the company accountable.
To the companies credit they also are standing by our contract.

motorclutch
11-14-2018, 05:59 AM
A novel concept....someone needs to pass that to our ****head President.

zerozero
11-14-2018, 06:35 AM
Just guessing but I would bet ABX has that many or more....

It wouldn't surprise me.

These managers all attended the same school apparently.

ACMItrash
11-16-2018, 01:40 AM
A management team that hates pilots
Reserve at the airport for 10 hous at times with no ability to get food.
Needless preflights of aircraft
Reserve assignment list that isn't followed
Trip trades denied
Required to work on days off
Almost 5 years without a contract

AMAZON will not put aircraft at ABX

DHL contract that could lose 8 planes for ABX

No upgrades in over a year

25 years to an upgrade at ABX

NEW HIRES BEING WASHED OUT AT

Employees not respected

Airplanes that are 40 years old and break alot!

No Land 3
11-16-2018, 03:05 AM
A management team that hates pilots
Reserve at the airport for 10 hous at times with no ability to get food.
Needless preflights of aircraft
Reserve assignment list that isn't followed
Trip trades denied
Required to work on days off
Almost 5 years without a contract

AMAZON will not put aircraft at ABX

DHL contract that could lose 8 planes for ABX

No upgrades in over a year

25 years to an upgrade at ABX

NEW HIRES BEING WASHED OUT AT

Employees not respected

Airplanes that are 40 years old and break alot!

Hmm... So reading all of this, I am starting to think that morale may be an issue at ABX.

ACMItrash
11-21-2018, 04:50 AM
Morale did you see the survey results in the other thread?

Riverside
11-21-2018, 05:14 AM
Morale did you see the survey results in the other thread?

Which one? You posted like 8 times in a ABX thread.

ACMItrash
11-21-2018, 05:49 AM
Which one? You posted like 8 times in a ABX thread.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/pilots-amazon-air-consider-quitting-survey-2018-11

This is one

ACMItrash
11-21-2018, 05:53 AM
https://amp.businessinsider.com/pilots-amazon-air-consider-quitting-survey-2018-11

This is one

https://www.apa1224.org/public/181115_FallWinter2018PilotSurvey_ABX.pdf

midnightshuttle
11-22-2018, 02:07 PM
Did ATI run an Amazon airplane off the runway?

Taxi way yes
Yes it was an Amazon plane, under thier lease agreement (AZ) tail

That was 4mo ago

motorclutch
11-22-2018, 02:14 PM
The scabs his that well Hhahaaha

ACMItrash
11-25-2018, 04:00 PM
Reserve with no rules and the little that are there igored by management.

Trades denied

Management that constantly make threats instead of treating employees like assets.

Wages 40% less than everyone else.

Amazon refusal to see what the rest of the industry sees......Pay pilots to stay because everyone else will eventually hire them all.

It will be fun watching ACMI management fail because they are to dumb to see what every management at every carrier in the passenger world and UPS and Fedex has already taken care of by paying their pilots appropriately!

nitefr8dog
11-26-2018, 02:59 AM
Reserve with no rules and the little that are there igored by management.

Trades denied

Management that constantly make threats instead of treating employees like assets.


Wages 40% less than everyone else.

Amazon refusal to see what the rest of the industry sees......Pay pilots to stay because everyone else will eventually hire them all.

It will be fun watching ACMI management fail because they are to dumb to see what every management at every carrier in the passenger world and UPS and Fedex has already taken care of by paying their pilots appropriately!

Amazon being a customer is enjoying the low pay.....Amazon also has nothing to do with the pilot pay issues and most likely could care less.

filejw
11-26-2018, 03:10 AM
Amazon being a customer is enjoying the low pay.....Amazon also has nothing to do with the pilot pay issues and most likely could care less.

And that is the Amazon model for many other parts of their business. Contrators for lots more than aviation . Good luck trying to get them to change .

nitefr8dog
11-26-2018, 04:31 AM
And that is the Amazon model for many other parts of their business. Contrators for lots more than aviation . Good luck trying to get them to change .
Exactly...

gumpscheck
11-26-2018, 08:58 AM
And that is the Amazon model for many other parts of their business. Contrators for lots more than aviation . Good luck trying to get them to change .

Amazon could care less until their model fails. But then again, Amazon is operating with minimal investment (infrastructure or otherwise) so they have little to lose. To me this is a new version of operating from a mobile trailer. Remember Airborne?

ACMItrash
12-29-2018, 06:00 AM
And reason 101

50% new hire wash out rate at ABX

goinaround
12-29-2018, 06:13 AM
And reason 101

50% new hire wash out rate at ABX

Less indicative of the quality of training at ABX as it is the critical thinking skills of those choosing to accept a position at ABX at this point.

EndOfTimes
12-29-2018, 06:56 AM
And reason 101

50% new hire wash out rate at ABX

Youíre not helping your cause by making wild and unsubstantiated claims like this. You lose credibility every you post this type of garbage. Again, things are horrible enough at ABX without embellishments.

motorclutch
12-29-2018, 07:45 AM
Maybe the washout rate is due to the inferior candidates ABX attracts? Iíve flown with some....itís not the same as a few years ago. David Soapy has convinced the BOD and Hete that heís getting only the best.

ACMItrash
12-29-2018, 07:48 AM
Maybe the washout rate is due to the inferior candidates ABX attracts? Iíve flown with some....itís not the same as a few years ago. David Soapy has convinced the BOD and Hete that heís getting only the best.

You think the uppers would fact check soapy! Fact of the matter is there is a high wash out rate. You can't hide behind facts!

ACMItrash
12-29-2018, 07:49 AM
Youíre not helping your cause by making wild and unsubstantiated claims like this. You lose credibility every you post this type of garbage. Again, things are horrible enough at ABX without embellishments.

Should we publish the list to probe the facts?

EndOfTimes
12-29-2018, 08:40 AM
Should we publish the list to probe the facts?

Sure. Give me your inflated, artificial numbers over a realistic sample. Letís say for the last 6 months. How many showed up for class, and how many of those had training failures? It wonít be 50 percent. ďWashout ratesĒ donít include those who left for greener pastures, or went back to their old job because they realized coming to ABX was a bad idea once they felt the sinking ship. ABX standards have been lowered considerably, itís hard to fail. As Bubba says, you just have to be able to ďfog a mirror.Ē Stop exaggerating things. The truth is bad enough.

Riverside
12-29-2018, 09:01 AM
Should we publish the list to probe the facts?

You always spew false information. Why anyone would believe you is beyond me.

nitefr8dog
12-29-2018, 10:46 AM
And reason 101

50% new hire wash out rate at ABX
He did not mention the 50% is in a class of 2...as usual he embellishes the facts. There are always 1 or 2 who struggle. After 20 yrs training pilots to fly the 767 ABX training is as good as it gets. But give all the information or as usual you sound like an idiot. 50% in a class of 20...now that would be of interest.

ACMItrash
01-20-2019, 06:46 PM
He did not mention the 50% is in a class of 2...as usual he embellishes the facts. There are always 1 or 2 who struggle. After 20 yrs training pilots to fly the 767 ABX training is as good as it gets. But give all the information or as usual you sound like an idiot. 50% in a class of 20...now that would be of interest.


If there werent enough reasons...a chief pilot who thinks it's ok and legal to sit on reserve for 15 hour then go fly. Toxic!

johnny150
01-27-2019, 04:44 AM
You will get a TV dinner on Christmas at ABX..lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

ACMItrash
01-29-2019, 01:40 AM
[QUOTE=johnny150;2750799]You will get a TV dinner on Christmas at ABX..lol


Do you know what Spirit, Jet Blue, Frontier and Southwest all have in common?

They all have respectable contracts with great benefits, more days off than acmi, and managements that have a vision with defined growth!

And they are all hiring! Some of them have 2~3 year upgrades with up to 3x the retirement of abx, ati, atlas or omni!

If you're buddy (or management on here) is trying to talk you into acmi he wants you to feel his pain!

ACMItrash
02-06-2019, 04:43 AM
Has anyone looked at how many regionals have higher 1st year pay than most ACMI carriers? Why don't any of the ACMI carriers have meaningful trip duty rigs and min day credit? That adds about an extra 15-30k to annual salary!

captjns
02-06-2019, 06:42 AM
Has anyone looked at how many regionals have higher 1st year pay than most ACMI carriers? Why don't any of the ACMI carriers have meaningful trip duty rigs and min day credit? That adds about an extra 15-30k to annual salary!

Because they don’t have to. Entry level pilots are seeking employment with regionals that have “Flow” programs to the main lines.

Cujo665
02-06-2019, 06:50 AM
Has anyone looked at how many regionals have higher 1st year pay than most ACMI carriers? Why don't any of the ACMI carriers have meaningful trip duty rigs and min day credit? That adds about an extra 15-30k to annual salary!

Dude, seriously... we get it, you hate your ACMI. Some of us don’t. In my case, I made more as a first year FO than I ever did at a regional, even at 10 year CA pay thanks to the lost decade.
I’m off two weeks at a time every month. I spend zero time thinking about commuting, they buy my seats and I keep the air miles. I don’t need a crashpad since they buy my hotels every night away from home, and I keep most of those hotel awards too. Our top step CA pay is $13 an hour more than AA on the same equipment.

Not all ACMI’s are crap. In fact, for many it’s a much better lifestyle than commuting 3-5 times a month, often on days off for uncommutable trips; then having to carefully plan your vacation time to get a month off, while we can do it every other month if we wanted to.

Different folks have different needs. For many the Kalitta, Omni, ATI, Western Global type of places offer a realistic and decent career option. Eventually Atlas/Southern will get a good contract too.

zerozero
02-06-2019, 06:54 AM
Dude, seriously... we get it, you hate your ACMI. Some of us donít. In my case, I made more as a first year FO than I ever did at a regional, even at 10 year CA pay thanks to the lost decade.
Iím off two weeks at a time every month. I spend zero time thinking about commuting, they buy my seats and I keep the air miles. I donít need a crashpad since they buy my hotels every night away from home, and I keep most of those hotel awards too. Our top step CA pay is $13 an hour more than AA on the same equipment.

Not all ACMIís are crap. In fact, for many itís a much better lifestyle than commuting 3-5 times a month, often on days off for uncommutable trips; then having to carefully plan your vacation time to get a month off, while we can do it every other month if we wanted to.

Different folks have different needs. For many the Kalitta, Omni, ATI, Western Global type of places offer a realistic and decent career option. Eventually Atlas/Southern will get a good contract too.

That all sounds really peachy, but to be quite honest, it's also totally off topic.

Check the thread. This is the one you come to when you WANT to b!#@% about the ACMI segment of the airline industry.

:D

Cujo665
02-06-2019, 06:55 AM
You will get a TV dinner on Christmas at ABX..lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Our company told CAís on trips to use the company credit card and buy for the crew, try to stay under $50 per meal, no booze on the company.
Those not on trips, including FOís on reserve in hotels were also authorized to use the company card for a holiday meal.

Like Iíve said, not all ACMIís are the same.

Cujo665
02-06-2019, 06:59 AM
That all sounds really peachy, but to be quite honest, it's also totally off topic.

Check the thread. This is the one you come to when you WANT to b!#@% about the ACMI segment of the airline industry.

:D

Okay, I’ll play along....

It’s terrible, the quality of our crew meals has greatly deteriorated. We don’t get the Salmon hardly at all anymore and it’s just steak or chicken.
Yep, that’s the big complaint our union is dealing with.

Give a pilot a bar of gold, he’ll complain it’s too heavy.

zerozero
02-06-2019, 07:23 AM
Give a pilot a bar of gold, heíll complain itís too heavy.

Thanks for playing. But, that, is not exactly how it works in ACMI.

It's more like, "Welcome to ACMI Airlines. Congratulations for making it this far. You're truly one out of thousands who have survived our grueling recruitment process. We're so happy you're here and we hope you'll make this your home for the rest of your career. You're part of our family now, and to express our eternal gratitude, support and encouragement, we're going to be delivering a GOLD BAR to your home address just before Christmas time so even your family at home will see how much we VALUE your contribution to our mission."

Sometime between Thanksgiving and Christmas this arrives in the mail.

https://cdn3.volusion.com/p47su.y695r/v/vspfiles/photos/9816692B-2.jpg?1546857342

4runner
02-06-2019, 12:51 PM
I like my ACMI. Iím looking for another job, but grateful for this one. They treat us well and pay us ok.

nitefr8dog
02-06-2019, 02:31 PM
I like my ACMI. Iím looking for another job, but grateful for this one. They treat us well and pay us ok.
That is not allowed! On this thread you are required to hate your company to respond!

ACMItrash
02-06-2019, 05:39 PM
That is not allowed! On this thread you are required to hate your company to respond!

Funny how some love working extra days to get a "free ticket" to work. But the lack meaningful monthly credit from rigs, sit long 3-4 hour sits in the middle of the night and not get paid for it, have virtually no retirement but they love it. In stead of trying to improve it they encourage others to join in the race to the bottom! The guy that said their rate is higher than AMR obviously have never seen their monthly credit and their Retirement they get to work for free and get more days off because of it. I get it though working 16 or 17 in a row some love it!

Cujo665
02-07-2019, 06:03 AM
Funny how some love working extra days to get a "free ticket" to work. But the lack meaningful monthly credit from rigs, sit long 3-4 hour sits in the middle of the night and not get paid for it, have virtually no retirement but they love it. In stead of trying to improve it they encourage others to join in the race to the bottom! The guy that said their rate is higher than AMR obviously have never seen their monthly credit and their Retirement they get to work for free and get more days off because of it. I get it though working 16 or 17 in a row some love it!

Our travel is always scheduled as part of the 16 work days, not sure what goes on elsewhere.
We hardly ever fly above guarantee, so a rig doesn’t matter. We’re doing average 25-45 hours a month, but paid for 64 minimum.... lots of ways to bump monthly pay up without working extra days.
I’ve never had any 3-4 or more hour sits in the middle of the night. We don’t do cargo, and most flights are daytime departures.

Yeah, the rate is $13 ph hour higher than AA on same equipment, seat, longevity. Put the extra money towards retirement if you need to. I am intimately familiar with their deteriorating work rules and lagging legacy compensation. Lots of friends there and we compare notes regularly. Grass is not always greener pal. The guy living Maine, driving to Boston the day prior to early RAP, to JS to New York to sit reserve in a crashpad looks at my schedule, travel, hotels and pay and he does not agree with you.

It’s not about loving 16 day trips as much as loving the two week vacation every month, and being able to go places with the family every month.

Time off? I’m scheduled and being paid for 16 days. Most are long call and I’m at home. I have 6 flights for the whole month, 36 hours. Totals 7 nights away all month.

Not all ACMI’s are the same. I don’t doubt what you’re saying about the QOL at your carrier. We aren’t like that. The point is, different folks have different priorities. For many, a good ACMI like Kalitta or Omni, are acceptable careers. This is especially true for older guys who can’t afford to leave the left seat to go start over.

My place isn’t perfect, but it’s fine for me. Sorry your place is so bad. When is your CBA up for section 6? Rising Tides lift all boats, and the tide has been rising. Hopefully, your team can profit from the success of other groups.
Are you an ALPA or an APA?

Is it perfect? Heck no... I could gripe about a lot of things, but overall it’s a decent job and we’re treated and paid fairly. What good would griping here about the little things do anyway?

However, in the spirit of the thread....
I hate my ACMI !!!! Don’t come here !!!

We good now?

zerozero
02-07-2019, 06:33 AM
This is especially true for older guys who canít afford to leave the left seat to go start over.

I'm not picking on you, but I do think this comment needs some attention.

I know everyone experiences a little bad luck every now and then. Some more than others perhaps. But to every extent possible, this sort of situation must be avoided, ESPECIALLY in this highly volatile, easy come, easy go segment of the airline industry.

Everyone should be prepared to walk off the job, burn the place down and go start over again. That means carrying more in your "emergency fund" than your average person.

But since this isn't an average job, we need to plan a little differently.

I'm entirely prepared to turn my back on my seniority and pay rate if I need to. And most importantly, that allows me the freedom to fight for what I believe we rightfully deserve.

When you're begging for crumbs, you never get a seat at the table.

maxjet
02-07-2019, 06:56 AM
Everyone should be prepared to walk off the job, burn the place down and go start over again. That means carrying more in your "emergency fund" than your average person.


Really? At what point do you decide to be part of a company? At what point do you decide to enjoy life? Are you going to be responsible for all the lives you effect when you burn it down? What a miserable selfish life you must lead. I cannot imagine living my life with the attitude of, screw everyone including my family.

Let me give you some advice. Life is about more than a job.

zerozero
02-07-2019, 07:13 AM
Really? At what point do you decide to be part of a company? At what point do you decide to enjoy life? Are you going to be responsible for all the lives you effect when you burn it down? What a miserable selfish life you must lead. I cannot imagine living my life with the attitude of, screw everyone including my family.

Let me give you some advice. Life is about more than a job.

I'm part of the company, when I'm A PART of the company. I'm obviously NOT a part of the company when the execs sabotage my profession they have so heavily profited from.

Your advice actually makes my point.

Life is indeed more than my job. I'm fully prepared to walk away when the times comes. Until then I fight to make it better for everyone in this industry.

You're welcome.
:cool:

Cujo665
02-07-2019, 07:14 AM
I'm not picking on you, but I do think this comment needs some attention.

I know everyone experiences a little bad luck every now and then. Some more than others perhaps. But to every extent possible, this sort of situation must be avoided, ESPECIALLY in this highly volatile, easy come, easy go segment of the airline industry.

Everyone should be prepared to walk off the job, burn the place down and go start over again. That means carrying more in your "emergency fund" than your average person.

But since this isn't an average job, we need to plan a little differently.

I'm entirely prepared to turn my back on my seniority and pay rate if I need to. And most importantly, that allows me the freedom to fight for what I believe we rightfully deserve.

When you're begging for crumbs, you never get a seat at the table.

You took it out of context. The comparison was being older, in the left seat making decent money, having good work rules, to go start over at a legacy commuting on a JS, having no vacation time, only getting 3-4 days off between trips, using days off to commute, living in a crashpad like a college kid with a massive pay cut for three years or so.... and having less than 10 years - or so - left.

zerozero
02-07-2019, 07:21 AM
You took it out of context. The comparison was being older, in the left seat making decent money, having good work rules, to go start over at a legacy commuting on a JS, having no vacation time, only getting 3-4 days off between trips, using days off to commute, living in a crashpad like a college kid with a massive pay cut for three years or so.

We donít work in an industry where your tenure and experience are transportable. Burning it down to start at ground zero because you arenít the highest paid, or have the best work rules is a blockhead idea and outright foolish.

That's fair.
Let's say you took my "burn it down" idea out of context.

I'm not saying the THREAT of burning the place down is the only way forward.

In fact, if you go back and look at my original comment I said, we should be PREPARED to burn the place down.

The freedom to be able to say, I will no longer sell myself short; I will no longer be THREATENED by a COMPANY SHUT DOWN; I will walk away if I must, is very empowering.

When we regard the company as our Daddy who will take care of our every need if only we are good little compliant suck ups is when we ultimately sell out ourselves, and everyone else.

Cujo665
02-07-2019, 07:32 AM
That's fair.
Let's say you took my "burn it down" idea out of context.

I'm not saying the THREAT of burning the place down is the only way forward.

In fact, if you go back and look at my original comment I said, we should be PREPARED to burn the place down.

The freedom to be able to say, I will no longer sell myself short; I will no longer be THREATENED by a COMPANY SHUT DOWN; I will walk away if I must, is very empowering.

When we regard the company as our Daddy who will take care of our every need if only we are good little compliant suck ups is when we ultimately sell out ourselves, and everyone else.

You still don’t get what I was saying.

You have guys on here saying these ACMI jobs are all crap, go elsewhere. My point is simply that it is not always true. Not all ACMI’s are the same. Many older guys at good companies, with good pay, good benefits, good work rules, good quality of life aren’t going to leave to go elsewhere to start over. Nor do they need to.

Now, if you’re at a place that is toxic, no future, terrible contract, bad QOL, regional style wages and working conditions then it’s a different story.

Which bring me back again to my original post... every guys situation is different and a one size fits all, walk away attitude doesn’t work.

zerozero
02-07-2019, 07:38 AM
You still donít get what I was saying.

I get it.

Just saying, if you're PREPARED to do that, you have nothing to fear.

:cool:

Cujo665
02-07-2019, 07:41 AM
I get it.

Just saying, if you're PREPARED to do that, you have nothing to fear.

:cool:

If the job is that bad, they should leave.

abxflyr
02-07-2019, 08:03 AM
Many of these statements are post-facto when taken in perspective. One can argue, if you are working for Omni or Kalitta (which I assume the most recent commentators are..) that ACMI life is good and better than AA and others.

I suppose you can argue that it is ...."now", but how many years (and how far behind in total wages) are you from the long term life in prison? Generally speaking when you feed the dog scraps they begin to think its a good meal. Just like saying how many days off you personally get or what your commute is....the mileage varies to the individual.

By the way, everyone forgets to mention in ACMI....you're only as good as your next Union contract; and the company, as good till their next renewal or change in customer base.

Cujo665
02-07-2019, 08:15 AM
Many of these statements are post-facto when taken in perspective. One can argue, if you are working for Omni or Kalitta (which I assume the most recent commentators are..) that ACMI life is good and better than AA and others.

I suppose you can argue that it is ...."now", but how many years (and how far behind in total wages) are you from the long term life in prison? Generally speaking when you feed the dog scraps they begin to think its a good meal. Just like saying how many days off you personally get or what your commute is....the mileage varies to the individual.

By the way, everyone forgets to mention in ACMI....you're only as good as your next Union contract; and the company, as good till their next renewal or change in customer base.

Any airline is only as good as its next contract. Ask the guys who’ve had bankruptcy contracts.

Again, you’re talking a different situation than the one I’ve described. If you’re under 50, even at Kalitta or Omni, going to a legacy will be a significant improvement in all areas except for short term pay and working conditions while on reserve.
If you live in Base it’s a no brainer, if you’re a commuter it adds to the mix.

I’ll restate it again. Every guys situation is different. For many, staying at their ACMI is probably their best option.

In my case, I’d much rather do 16 straight and have two weeks straight off every month... bid creatively and get a month off without ever using a single vacation day. Never have to JS. Never have to crashpad. Very decent pay. Treated well. Hotel points and airline miles for free family vacations.

It’s not for everybody, but for many it’s great.

vroll1800
02-07-2019, 08:36 AM
Our top step CA pay is $13 an hour more than AA on the same equipment.


Really?? :rolleyes: A glance at airline profiles shows Omni top rate on B767 (AND B777) to be 262/hr. AA shows 284/hr for B767, 332/hr for B777. I do see that Omni has a $25/hr advantage first year pay over AA, but then AA has a 20-25/hr rate advantage on B767 over Omni for the 2nd - 4th year FO. (Although narrow body for legacy new hires is the norm, some legacy new hires have snagged a B767 slot from the start, or within a few years.

I get that you're elated to be at Omni now, and rightfully so. Yet you also demonstrate an ignorance of (or willingness to blow off) the effect that good rigs, minimum pay per day/duty period can have on ones compensation. At some airlines, working 16 days would net you 80 hours, or 25% more hours than Omni. I also get that home basing can be a "Golden" trump card. Yet to place ACMI carrier as a viable career alternative in the same breath as any of the "Top 6" approaches the height of folly. Add up the greater credit hours, superior retirement, vacation, trip trade/add/drop flexibility, and the columns just don't add up for many under the age of 50. Lastly, did your envious AA friend hit you up for a LOR to Omni ?

Cujo665
02-07-2019, 11:13 AM
Really?? :rolleyes: A glance at airline profiles shows Omni top rate on B767 (AND B777) to be 262/hr. AA shows 284/hr for B767, 332/hr for B777. I do see that Omni has a $25/hr advantage first year pay over AA, but then AA has a 20-25/hr rate advantage on B767 over Omni for the 2nd - 4th year FO. (Although narrow body for legacy new hires is the norm, some legacy new hires have snagged a B767 slot from the start, or within a few years.

yes, really. Pull the CBA’s and compare top step 12 year 767 CA pay. Now a caveat could be that AA is the lowest paying legacy and is still operating under a bankruptcy contract. I’d fully expect them to make significant gains at their next negotiation, how ever many years that takes to happen. It is possible I misread it though, so I will get fresh CBA copies.

Rigs wouldn’t really effect us much, nobody ever flys enough to where rigs would beat guarantee. Check airmen, and some special programs guys could benefit from rigs. Having 12 reserve days and flying 4 legs on 4 other days all month isn’t really going to benefit from a rig. RSV days are all just guarantee.
But, in all fairness, even when on a 6 day layover, it is part of our 16 days and we are getting guarantee. It’s a rig of sorts by end result.

That said, it’s easy to pick up extra pay by things as simple as accepting a coach seat instead of business or first.


I get that you're elated to be at Omni now, and rightfully so. Yet you also demonstrate an ignorance of (or willingness to blow off) the effect that good rigs, minimum pay per day/duty period can have on ones compensation. At some airlines, working 16 days would net you 80 hours, or 25% more hours than Omni. I also get that home basing can be a "Golden" trump card. Yet to place ACMI carrier as a viable career alternative in the same breath as any of the "Top 6" approaches the height of folly. Add up the greater credit hours, superior retirement, vacation, trip trade/add/drop flexibility, and the columns just don't add up for many under the age of 50. Lastly, did your envious AA friend hit you up for a LOR to Omni ?

And I’ll say again.... everybody’s situation and needs are different. There is absolutely nothing wrong with somebody finishing their career at a place like Kalitta or Omni if it works for them. If somebody else is under 50ish they should absolutely look at the legacy job. The short term pain would be worth the long term gain. Again, to keep it in context, we’re talking 50+ year old Kalitta/Omni CA’s at or near top step. If you’re a first, second, third year FO under about 57-58, you’re better off at the legacy if you can deal with commuting and crashpads for a while.

A few of these ACMI’s have become decent jobs, that does not mean there aren’t better ones. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Grundt
02-08-2019, 06:54 AM
yes, really. Pull the CBA’s and compare top step 12 year 767 CA pay. Now a caveat could be that AA is the lowest paying legacy and is still operating under a bankruptcy contract. I’d fully expect them to make significant gains at their next negotiation, how ever many years that takes to happen. It is possible I misread it though, so I will get fresh CBA copies.

AA signed a new CBA in 2015 AFTER exiting bankruptcy at the end of 2013. Furthermore, they got mid-contract pay raises in 2017. To say that their current CBA/payrates is a bankruptcy contract is a total misrepresentation of facts.

Also according to APC, 12 year 767 CA pay at Omni is $262/hr and at AA is $284/hr. AA has a higher guarantee, too. Omni's rates are going to go up eventually, but they won't exceed $284 until DOS+2 (and even then it's just barely beating it before going up to $297 at DOS+3). For the time being, AA's top rates are clearly still higher.

Stop misrepresenting the facts. I'm glad you guys have a tremendously improved CBA, but it's still not better than AA's.

Cujo665
02-09-2019, 12:54 PM
Stop misrepresenting the facts. I'm glad you guys have a tremendously improved CBA, but it's still not better than AA's.

Oh, itís definately not better than any legacy... unless youíre already in the left seat at a Kalitta or Omni type place and over age 50ish.

It also depends on how much value is placed on home basing vs jumpseating to crashpads, or jumpseating on a day off for uncomutable trips... and how much value is placed on having two weeks off straight every month...

Different folks will have different needs and priorities. A legacy gig isnít always the best choice by default. A lot goes into it.

nitefr8dog
02-09-2019, 03:31 PM
Oh, itís definately not better than any legacy... unless youíre already in the left seat at a Kalitta or Omni type place and over age 50ish.

It also depends on how much value is placed on home basing vs jumpseating to crashpads, or jumpseating on a day off for uncomutable trips... and how much value is placed on having two weeks off straight every month...

Different folks will have different needs and priorities. A legacy gig isnít always the best choice by default. A lot goes into it.
You compared pay vs pay and your wrong....its ok you can say it

4runner
02-09-2019, 05:08 PM
Youíre*. Iím ďthat guyĒ.