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fenix1
01-24-2018, 04:26 PM
I'm curious when the current Envoy contract expires & when a new one would take effect that would need to account for Endeavor/Republic/other regionals' new/current contract in some way. Thanks in advance for any insight you have.


DanRoman
01-24-2018, 04:51 PM
I'm curious when the current Envoy contract expires & when a new one would take effect that would need to account for Endeavor/Republic/other regionals' new/current contract in some way. Thanks in advance for any insight you have.

I don’t think it expires for another 2-4 years.

ORDinary
01-24-2018, 06:07 PM
I'm curious when the current Envoy contract expires & when a new one would take effect that would need to account for Endeavor/Republic/other regionals' new/current contract in some way. Thanks in advance for any insight you have.

In 2011 (or 2012?), we signed an 8 year bankruptcy concessionary contract. Then in late 2014 we signed another concessionary contract, this one for 10 years.


1704LIFE
01-24-2018, 06:29 PM
Who signs a ten year contract in the aviation game, stuff changes so fast

bigtime209
01-24-2018, 06:39 PM
Who signs a ten year contract in the aviation game, stuff changes so fast

Oh junior...if you only lived through the battle of ALPA vs Envoy vs AAG over that contract. Those were not good times.

fenix1
01-24-2018, 11:44 PM
In 2011 (or 2012?), we signed an 8 year bankruptcy concessionary contract. Then in late 2014 we signed another concessionary contract, this one for 10 years.

Thanks a lot, ORDinary - much appreciated.

fenix1
01-24-2018, 11:49 PM
Crystal ball time, but what potential exists for management & the Envoy pilot group to re-negotiate a deal prior the end of the current contact in 2024? For how long will the current Envoy contract (including flow...) remain enough to fill classes in competition with Endeavor’s contract (and possibly Republic’s & likely other airlines’)??

daveetasac
01-25-2018, 02:16 AM
Oh junior...if you only lived through the battle of ALPA vs Envoy vs AAG over that contract. Those were not good times.

Yeah, I remember something about a “Comair II” being threatened buy AAG and Jerry Glass, and a certain east coast airline saying “yes” to a low-ball contract while Eagle and others said “no.”

Worth a google for junior...

CaptJackSparrow
01-25-2018, 06:46 AM
Crystal ball time, but what potential exists for management & the Envoy pilot group to re-negotiate a deal prior the end of the current contact in 2024?

When all the high value aviators realize that they become low value aviators once they are on property

bigtime209
01-25-2018, 06:56 AM
Crystal ball time, but what potential exists for management & the Envoy pilot group to re-negotiate a deal prior the end of the current contact in 2024? For how long will the current Envoy contract (including flow...) remain enough to fill classes in competition with Endeavor’s contract (and possibly Republic’s & likely other airlines’)??

There is a limited re-opener for the contract before then. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in 2020 both parties go to the table with 2 items they want to negotiate? As far as how long the current contract will keep brining guys in? Well, only time will tell. But I think anyone who thinks the new hire classes are going to take a substantial hit anytime soon are setting themselves up for disappointment. The cadet and RTP pipeline alone will keep a solid stream coming in.

1704LIFE
01-25-2018, 06:57 AM
Looks like I got some googling to do, of course after I finish my chores at home. Mom and dad get really mad when the chores aren’t done!

bigtime209
01-25-2018, 07:04 AM
Looks like I got some googling to do, of course after I finish my chores at home. Mom and dad get really mad when the chores aren’t done!

Lol...now that's funny

KodiakRS
01-25-2018, 09:32 AM
Who signs a ten year contract in the aviation game, stuff changes so fast

Well our pre-bankruptcy contract was a 16 year deal so the answer to your question is; us.

AZPilotMike
01-25-2018, 09:53 AM
There is a limited re-opener for the contract before then. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in 2020 both parties go to the table with 2 items they want to negotiate? As far as how long the current contract will keep brining guys in? Well, only time will tell. But I think anyone who thinks the new hire classes are going to take a substantial hit anytime soon are setting themselves up for disappointment. The cadet and RTP pipeline alone will keep a solid stream coming in.
Yeah I am worried about that as well. I honestly don’t see them coming to the table anytime soon. I will most likely get my 1000 and then start actively looking for somewhere else, hopefully an LLC.

fenix1
01-25-2018, 11:41 AM
There is a limited re-opener for the contract before then. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe in 2020 both parties go to the table with 2 items they want to negotiate? As far as how long the current contract will keep brining guys in? Well, only time will tell. But I think anyone who thinks the new hire classes are going to take a substantial hit anytime soon are setting themselves up for disappointment. The cadet and RTP pipeline alone will keep a solid stream coming in.

Many thanks, BT209. Do you have any idea how comprehensive those 2 items to be negotiated can be? (i.e., would it be more like 5 yr CA pay only? Or a comprehensive review of the basic hourly pay chart for CA's & FO's of all years time on property)

fenix1
01-25-2018, 11:46 AM
Well our pre-bankruptcy contract was a 16 year deal so the answer to your question is; us.

That's really interesting to me - and I don't mean that in a negative way because the contract was negotiated in a different era where there were some massive forces at work (i.e., Envoy's existence & carving a niche in post-bankruptcy/post-merger world). What factors have lead to both sides being agreeable to the longer term contracts the last couple times through negotiations? (I don't have any Part 121 experience yet so line me out if I need it here, but aren't most regional contracts typically much shorter than 10-16 year contracts?)

bigtime209
01-25-2018, 12:08 PM
That's really interesting to me - and I don't mean that in a negative way because the contract was negotiated in a different era where there were some massive forces at work (i.e., Envoy's existence & carving a niche in post-bankruptcy/post-merger world). What factors have lead to both sides being agreeable to the longer term contracts the last couple times through negotiations? (I don't have any Part 121 experience yet so line me out if I need it here, but aren't most regional contracts typically much shorter than 10-16 year contracts?)

There was no agreeing on our 2014 contract. It was rammed down our throats. We voted it down a couple of times and then it finally got voted in begrudgingly in response to losing a good chunk of our fleet, new aircraft orders that were meant to come to us being sent to other carriers, and the threat of the airline being shutdown after a slow and painful death.

ORDinary
01-25-2018, 01:40 PM
Who signs a ten year contract in the aviation game, stuff changes so fast

To answer your question: 60% of a pilot group who had just faced a year of liquidation threats, outright lies, planes being given away to other regionals in retaliation for a handful of no votes, other employee groups being turned against us, the firing of some union reps, and us shrinking from 3200+ pilots to just over half of that. In exchange for some 175s.

EchoEcho
01-25-2018, 01:52 PM
You have to turn it over and look at the back for the expiration, that’s where they put it

fenix1
01-25-2018, 01:59 PM
There was no agreeing on our 2014 contract. It was rammed down our throats. We voted it down a couple of times and then it finally got voted in begrudgingly in response to losing a good chunk of our fleet, new aircraft orders that were meant to come to us being sent to other carriers, and the threat of the airline being shutdown after a slow and painful death.

Thanks - I understand. It is what it is, sadly.

ORDinary
01-25-2018, 02:01 PM
Crystal ball time, but what potential exists for management & the Envoy pilot group to re-negotiate a deal prior the end of the current contact in 2024? For how long will the current Envoy contract (including flow...) remain enough to fill classes in competition with Endeavor’s contract (and possibly Republic’s & likely other airlines’)??

Our management was willing to liquidate the company to make us take cuts. So things will have to be pretty serious to make them give the cuts back. We are currently overstaffed, new hires are still coming in droves, and our training department is maxed out. I'm not really seeing what incentive they would have to renegotiate any time soon. Things could change, but people should understand how stingy, uncaring, and reactionary management is when it comes to paying their workers.

Smutter
01-25-2018, 02:01 PM
Many thanks, BT209. Do you have any idea how comprehensive those 2 items to be negotiated can be? (i.e., would it be more like 5 yr CA pay only? Or a comprehensive review of the basic hourly pay chart for CA's & FO's of all years time on property)
What Alpa brings to the table has to be cost neutral, so that won't be much

fenix1
01-25-2018, 02:53 PM
What Alpa brings to the table has to be cost neutral, so that won't be much

Got it, thanks Smutter

fenix1
01-25-2018, 02:57 PM
Our management was willing to liquidate the company to make us take cuts. So things will have to be pretty serious to make them give the cuts back. We are currently overstaffed, new hires are still coming in droves, and our training department is maxed out. I'm not really seeing what incentive they would have to renegotiate any time soon. Things could change, but people should understand how stingy, uncaring, and reactionary management is when it comes to paying their workers.

Overstaffed?? (In all equipment and bases?) What's the disconnect that leads to continued aggressive hiring if Envoy is overstaffed currently? Why is the flow to mainline being so heavily metered (by Envoy management, as I understand the situation) if Envoy is overstaffed currently?

SilentLurker
01-25-2018, 03:33 PM
When all the high value aviators realize that they become low value aviators once they are on property



This............

SilentLurker
01-25-2018, 03:35 PM
Yeah I am worried about that as well. I honestly don’t see them coming to the table anytime soon. I will most likely get my 1000 and then start actively looking for somewhere else, hopefully an LLC.



THIS!!!!!!!!!!!

pitchattitude
01-25-2018, 03:42 PM
Overstaffed?? (In all equipment and bases?) What's the disconnect that leads to continued aggressive hiring if Envoy is overstaffed currently? Why is the flow to mainline being so heavily metered (by Envoy management, as I understand the situation) if Envoy is overstaffed currently?
Based on the info that RW put out last month there will be a 25% increase in lines overall by June, with everywhere but DFW seeing the growth. And it indicated only a VERY small reduction on the CRJ.

I think that is why the big push for captains and keeping the training pipeline full.

Unless they see major problems with the methods they are using now (RTP, cadets, HVA) or those who are here start talking with their feet, nothing is going to change.

DilsonWic
01-25-2018, 04:29 PM
PSA could be our friend this time. Rumor is they are close to an agreement to increase pay. Then we’d be me too’d.

ORDinary
01-25-2018, 04:34 PM
Overstaffed?? (In all equipment and bases?) What's the disconnect that leads to continued aggressive hiring if Envoy is overstaffed currently? Why is the flow to mainline being so heavily metered (by Envoy management, as I understand the situation) if Envoy is overstaffed currently?

Ever since they made their threats and we shrunk and then voted yes, they started to grow us back. Growing us involves doing what it takes to hire pilots (bonuses, advertising), then going to AA and asking for more flying. AA gives the feed to whoever can staff it. All envoy wants to do right now is angle for more and more flying. Having excess staffing helps them do that. The rare case at an airline when growth is bad: when it justifies them metering the flow.

ParkingatMIA
01-25-2018, 06:25 PM
PSA could be our friend this time. Rumor is they are close to an agreement to increase pay. Then we’d be me too’d.

Is that built into the contract somewhere?

DilsonWic
01-25-2018, 06:45 PM
It’s not. AAG has stated, and shown it won’t give any WO a competitive advantage over the other. Like the bonuses.

bigtime209
01-25-2018, 08:27 PM
Overstaffed?? (In all equipment and bases?) What's the disconnect that leads to continued aggressive hiring if Envoy is overstaffed currently? Why is the flow to mainline being so heavily metered (by Envoy management, as I understand the situation) if Envoy is overstaffed currently?

Because no matter what things may look like at this particular moment in time, the goal for this company is to get back to a 3,000+ pilot group.

ORDinary
01-26-2018, 02:09 AM
Unless they see major problems with the methods they are using now (RTP, cadets, HVA) or those who are here start talking with their feet, nothing is going to change.

They knew and we knew back in 2014 that pilot shortages and pressure to raise pay would be coming. That's one of the reasons we kept voting no despite the threats. Starting back then they have been structuring their feed to stay the cheapest while everyone else's pay went up. Pay is a recruitment tool, but cheaper recruitment tools include flow, RTP, cadet programs, quick upgrades, shiny 175s, etc. They locked us into paying more for benefits and getting less per diem 10 years. They locked us out of having our pay rates being determined by comparing us to like-sized regionals (yes, that used to be in our contract) right when like-sized regionals were starting get raises. The fact of the matter is that low morale is meaningless to them, unless it hurts recruitment. Which is why when the discussion boards get too negative you start seeing the management stooges posting on here.

BizJet
01-26-2018, 06:50 AM
PSA could be our friend this time. Rumor is they are close to an agreement to increase pay. Then we’d be me too’d.

We’ve heard it will just be on the CA side and will have PBS attached to it. The FOs will stay with the current pay until hiring hits 0.

I’m about 95% sure it will be done without a vote. Our MEC chair has said he doesn’t have to bring anything to vote. So it’s coming just we don’t know when we’ll get an email saying “New LOA for Pay and PBS Benefits”...

Only way I think we all get pay across the board is when all WO hiring takes a major hit. But with y’alls huge full classes and ours full it will be a long time.

DilsonWic
01-26-2018, 08:36 AM
We’ve heard it will just be on the CA side and will have PBS attached to it. The FOs will stay with the current pay until hiring hits 0.

I’m about 95% sure it will be done without a vote. Our MEC chair has said he doesn’t have to bring anything to vote. So it’s coming just we don’t know when we’ll get an email saying “New LOA for Pay and PBS Benefits”...

Only way I think we all get pay across the board is when all WO hiring takes a major hit. But with y’alls huge full classes and ours full it will be a long time.

Well CA pay scale is a good start. Envoy is short CAs not FOs.

And I’m fine with PBS attached. I won’t be here much longer. Either I’ll get a call or flow in a year.

TransWorld
01-26-2018, 08:54 AM
Well CA pay scale is a good start. Envoy is short CAs not FOs.

And I’m fine with PBS attached. I won’t be here much longer. Either I’ll get a call or flow in a year.

When was your hire date? What is your current best guess as to a flow month/year?

AZPilotMike
01-26-2018, 08:59 AM
When was your hire date? What is your current best guess as to a flow month/year?

Might be hard to answer. Most CA’s I know that were set to flow in the next 10-12 months have slowly had that date moved farther out. The ones that had flow dates closer at two years out basically just throw their hands up because our management has no issue violating the flow agreement.

To try and answer though I believe the latest flows were 2006 hires.

Pat2389
01-26-2018, 09:04 AM
Flying with a guy who flows in the next class, February 6. He was hired in May of 2006. He also says he believes that there are 25 Envoy flows in his class. Doesn’t project anything for the future but that’s better than the 16 or 17 that were in the last class.

DilsonWic
01-26-2018, 09:37 AM
When was your hire date? What is your current best guess as to a flow month/year?

Early 2008 guy. At 25 a month for 11 months I’m looking at roughly a year.

But apps are out and updated regularly.

AZPilotMike
01-26-2018, 09:39 AM
Flying with a guy who flows in the next class, February 6. He was hired in May of 2006. He also says he believes that there are 25 Envoy flows in his class. Doesn’t project anything for the future but that’s better than the 16 or 17 that were in the last class.
Well that’s good news I guess. Hopefully that trend continues.

Hardcharger
01-26-2018, 10:09 AM
We’ve heard it will just be on the CA side and will have PBS attached to it. The FOs will stay with the current pay until hiring hits 0.

I’m about 95% sure it will be done without a vote. Our MEC chair has said he doesn’t have to bring anything to vote. So it’s coming just we don’t know when we’ll get an email saying “New LOA for Pay and PBS Benefits”...

Only way I think we all get pay across the board is when all WO hiring takes a major hit. But with y’alls huge full classes and ours full it will be a long time.

Should that be the case, then captains should be the only ones to go to PBS and the version of SAP that doing so will produce.

DilsonWic
01-26-2018, 10:16 AM
Should that be the case, then captains should be the only ones to go to PBS and the version of SAP that doing so will produce.

Nah. Things have always been unfair. It’s the CAs turn to see some money.

Edit; I just saw you’re a PSA guy. I can’t speak on any unfairness there. But at Envoy the new hires and FOs have gotten all the “gets” lately.

Bigpimppilot
01-26-2018, 10:30 AM
They knew and we knew back in 2014 that pilot shortages and pressure to raise pay would be coming. That's one of the reasons we kept voting no despite the threats. Starting back then they have been structuring their feed to stay the cheapest while everyone else's pay went up. Pay is a recruitment tool, but cheaper recruitment tools include flow, RTP, cadet programs, quick upgrades, shiny 175s, etc. They locked us into paying more for benefits and getting less per diem 10 years. They locked us out of having our pay rates being determined by comparing us to like-sized regionals (yes, that used to be in our contract) right when like-sized regionals were starting get raises. The fact of the matter is that low morale is meaningless to them, unless it hurts recruitment. Which is why when the discussion boards get too negative you start seeing the management stooges posting on here.

This guy gets it

CaptJackSparrow
01-26-2018, 08:01 PM
Well CA pay scale is a good start. Envoy is short CAs not FOs.

And I’m fine with PBS attached. I won’t be here much longer. Either I’ll get a call or flow in a year.

I'm not. There's no reason to be giving the company anything in this environment while everyone else gets pay plus better QOL for nothing.

DilsonWic
01-27-2018, 07:09 AM
I'm not. There's no reason to be giving the company anything in this environment while everyone else gets pay plus better QOL for nothing.

They’ll get PSB when they want to. It’s just the sad reality of the situation we are in.

AZPilotMike
01-27-2018, 09:48 AM
They’ll get PSB when they want to. It’s just the sad reality of the situation we are in.

Besides didn’t we already iron out that deal with agreement of 40 175’s? My understanding was that all they needed to do was give 4 months notice.

DilsonWic
01-27-2018, 10:16 AM
Besides didn’t we already iron out that deal with agreement of 40 175’s? My understanding was that all they needed to do was give 4 months notice.

Yea, the only issue is the cost savings. It was done when we were 3,000 strong. So it may need to be reworked. But might as well “get” something for PBS when we will get it somehow anyway

CaptJackSparrow
01-27-2018, 10:44 AM
Besides didn’t we already iron out that deal with agreement of 40 175’s? My understanding was that all they needed to do was give 4 months notice.

The way I understood it was that on the delivery of the 41st that there would have to be talks about PBS but not that it would necessarily be implemented.

Daytripper13
01-27-2018, 12:42 PM
The way I understood it was that on the delivery of the 41st that there would have to be talks about PBS but not that it would necessarily be implemented.

The suspension of Letter 13-04 will end on the date that the 41st EMB-175 is delivered and within 30 days after such delivery the PBS Working Group will re-commence the process of negotiating and finalizing a PBS LOA pursuant to the requirements of Letter 13-04. It is the parties’ intent to complete PBS implementation as outlined in Letter 13-04 no later than 120 days after delivery of the 41st EMB-175.

DilsonWic
01-27-2018, 12:45 PM
They put a value on PBS, should we not agree on it, we are responsible for making up the value placed on it.

AZPilotMike
01-27-2018, 02:08 PM
Don’t we have the 41st on property already?

Bigpimppilot
01-27-2018, 04:57 PM
Take it out of first year pay!!

driver61
01-27-2018, 07:37 PM
Good luck getting people to come here when the current pilots have too start paying for not wanting PBS. Never going to happen

Bigpimppilot
01-28-2018, 01:46 AM
No s#it. That’s why pbs isn’t going to happen until another 9/11. The company realizes the limitation of their position and is playing their hand well.

wiz5422
01-28-2018, 05:04 AM
Don’t we have the 41st on property already?

Yes, moving forward on PBS has been suspended by the company even though the 41st 175 was delieverd. The company didn't think PBS was in their best interest at the moment so therefore the suspension.

If/when they decide to proceed, the union and company still have to negotiate a few things and then the pilots still get to vote on PBS. If wr vote it down, the pilot group is on the hook for the already negotiated price that the company valued PBS to be.

If we vote no, then the union and company will have to go back and negotiate how they take that money from us.

SilentLurker
01-28-2018, 05:59 AM
Yes, moving forward on PBS has been suspended by the company even though the 41st 175 was delieverd. The company didn't think PBS was in their best interest at the moment so therefore the suspension.



Just like flow was suspended and, or metered.

Seems they can do anything they want. I agree with you, the company does not want PBS yet. When they do and are ready they will come to the bargaining table, most likely after PSA has agreed and approved, then pressure is on our MEC to agree and “me too” us into a PSA agreement. Even if our MEC and the company both would like to kick-the-can-down-the-road on PBS, SHOULD the letter not be enforced? Shouldn’t discussions be happening?

41st has been delivered. Discussion is suspended, Company has a freeze on Rsv, and other improvement talks. Discussing PBS per the letter is a hand to be played and can bring them back to the table. File another grievance.

Announcements this year will be interesting. UA increasing regional flying, UA openly discussing and opening Scope discussions in order to compete against LLC/ULLCs, and survive pressure from shareholder to increase profits and margins. Boeing lost the legal fight 4-0 vote in favor of Bombardier/Delta/Airbus- CS100/300

Really hard to predict what the Regional industry will look like by December 2018, yet alone ENY by Summer/Fall 2018.

Just a thought.

Bigpimppilot
01-28-2018, 06:35 AM
Oh like if they approve 1 more guy a month to flow then the whole pilot group takes pbs in the shorts?

402FreightDog
01-28-2018, 07:57 AM
So what is the big deal with PBS?

I know it is/was a negotiating point and lots of other pilot and FA groups use it.

Why is it a good thing or a bad thing for for the company and or the pilots?

RawHide
01-28-2018, 08:39 AM
PBS increases pilot efficiency. No vacation conflicts, no training conflicts, no transition conflicts. More pilots get a line but there are less trips to trade with in open time less open time to pick up for extra pay. Airlines with pbs get the pilots to fly More for the same pay.

crj700
01-28-2018, 09:27 AM
So what is the big deal with PBS?

I know it is/was a negotiating point and lots of other pilot and FA groups use it.

Why is it a good thing or a bad thing for for the company and or the pilots?

PBS is only as good as the parings. The group that controls the pairings controls the quality of the lines generated by PBS. One guess as to who holds unilateral control of the pairings under our proposed agreement.

SilentLurker
01-28-2018, 12:17 PM
PBS is only as good as the parings. The group that controls the pairings controls the quality of the lines generated by PBS. One guess as to who holds unilateral control of the pairings under our proposed agreement.


That can be negotiated and amended. Doubt ALPA would give company “unilateral control of pairings.” Can anyone name one regional airline where that is happening.


People are nervous about a bogeyman that does not exist when it comes to PBS. There is a win-win situation out there that works great for both parties, that middle ground has to be found. Hardliners hold up progress. Sometimes Management understands not to walk into a gunfight with pitch forks, so they wait it out until the day that Amazon order of AR’s are delivered at the door step. Then they approach ALPA with pitch forks, having the AR’s strapped to their backs. Oh it’s a pilots market alright, until the gun fight begins at the negotiation table.

Sometimes working together for the best outcome for both pilots and company is not a bad idea. Screaming screw the company and PBS, give them nothing is not a viable negotiation strategy, in any “market”.

AZPilotMike
01-28-2018, 12:48 PM
That can be negotiated and amended. Doubt ALPA would give company “unilateral control of pairings.” Can anyone name one regional airline where that is happening.


People are nervous about a bogeyman that does not exist when it comes to PBS. There is a win-win situation out there that works great for both parties, that middle ground has to be found. Hardliners hold up progress. Sometimes Management understands not to walk into a gunfight with pitch forks, so they wait it out until the day that Amazon order of AR’s are delivered at the door step. Then they approach ALPA with pitch forks, having the AR’s strapped to their backs. Oh it’s a pilots market alright, until the gun fight begins at the negotiation table.

Sometimes working together for the best outcome for both pilots and company is not a bad idea. Screaming screw the company and PBS, give them nothing is not a viable negotiation strategy, in any “market”.

I agree 100%, but in order for this approach to work the pilot groups has to have faith that the agreed upon deal won’t be violated. I have a feeling right now the trust is at a low.

CaptJackSparrow
01-28-2018, 01:29 PM
Sometimes working together for the best outcome for both pilots and company is not a bad idea. Screaming screw the company and PBS, give them nothing is not a viable negotiation strategy, in any “market”.

When has the company ever worked together for the best outcome for both parties? And why should we? This mentality is why we get destroyed at the negotiating table.

highflyer1980
01-28-2018, 03:02 PM
Anyone who wants to know about PBS and how it will impact your QOL, go ask a senior FA how their transition to PBS was like during and after bankruptcy. I encourage you to ask not one, but many out there. That will give you a true barometer as to how “positive” the impact will be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

ORDinary
01-28-2018, 05:28 PM
That can be negotiated and amended. Doubt ALPA would give company “unilateral control of pairings.” Can anyone name one regional airline where that is happening.


People are nervous about a bogeyman that does not exist when it comes to PBS. There is a win-win situation out there that works great for both parties, that middle ground has to be found. Hardliners hold up progress. Sometimes Management understands not to walk into a gunfight with pitch forks, so they wait it out until the day that Amazon order of AR’s are delivered at the door step. Then they approach ALPA with pitch forks, having the AR’s strapped to their backs. Oh it’s a pilots market alright, until the gun fight begins at the negotiation table.

Sometimes working together for the best outcome for both pilots and company is not a bad idea. Screaming screw the company and PBS, give them nothing is not a viable negotiation strategy, in any “market”.

It is not just about screwing the company or whatever. PBS is a pay cut. Right now the company pays for transition conflicts. Losing PBS means losing those conflicts. That is lost pay. Also we would lose DTS. As somebody who always DTS's my vacation, this is a huge give away. Why would we give a single thing away right now?

When we almost got PBS a few years ago (after bankruptcy), the company did have the complete last say over pairings. ALPA could suggest changes but if they didn't meet the company's parameters, ALPA's suggestions were scrapped. I remember a scheduling rep told me one month the ALPA pairings had greatly improved commutability and cadence but they were scrapped because the base-wide number of crew overnights/hotels the company had to pay for went up by two for the month.

PBS is lost pay for pilots, it is a gain of control for the company, and it requires that we trust our untrustworthy management. I'm not saying PBS could never be beneficial, but there is absolutely no way any pilot should be considering giving the company anything in exchange for improvements. Every single change to our contract right now should be an improvement, with absolutely nothing given in exchange. We gave for years, it is their turn to give now.

Naviator
01-28-2018, 06:56 PM
What is DTS?

daveetasac
01-28-2018, 07:12 PM
Drop Trip Sequence

Basically, as a line holder, if your vacation block touches any sequence, the “left-over” days on either end are dropped. You’re only paid for the days within your vacation block. The dropped days surrounding your vacation are unpaid.

SilentLurker
01-28-2018, 10:34 PM
Many “senior FA’s “ now really like PBS (vs immediately prior to and a little while just after Bankruptcy, to get use to and understand the system)

Change is hard. We all know there are kinks just about every roll out. These kinks do not help foster confidence. Kinks in any rollout is not a indication of the short, or long term benefits of the whole system. Let that sink in a little. You will find hell raisers everywhere. I still have meat in the game curing while many of you flow in 1 year to a well established and oiled PBS system at American. Just reality, I understand they are not the same, I am not claiming they are, or that they will be. Totally different for now I know. BUT YOU START SOMEWHERE, and it’s not in fear. I’m sure AA had hell raisers at one point, just like our FA’s Pre and just after BK. Now? Not so much.

Not hearing complaints at other regionals either. Not even Mesa. Again lots of PTSD, here at Eagle/Voy. I don’t blame many of you, to say you’ve been through a lot is an understatement. Royal screwing from many levels, angles and inserted in various holes is what happened to you guys 3 to 4+ years ago.

CaptJackSparrow
01-29-2018, 03:57 AM
Not hearing complaints at other regionals either. Not even Mesa. Again lots of PTSD, here at Eagle/Voy. I don’t blame many of you, to say you’ve been through a lot is an understatement. Royal screwing from many levels, angles and inserted in various holes is what happened to you guys 3 to 4+ years ago.

Talk to guys at Skywest. I haven't heard anyone who likes it. The only people who don't mind PBS are those in the top 30% of seniority. Everyone else gets screwed.

I DTS most of my vacations so losing the extra week or two of free time, give or take, is a game changer for a lot of folks.

The bottom line here is that PBS only benefits the company. What do the we get out of it as a benefit? I have neither seen nor heard of any major positive aspect that improves QOL from PBS. Supposedly there will be less people on reserve. Supposedly. I highly doubt that will change seeing that this company's reserve system revolves around 1/3 of the pilot group being on reserve. And the only way for that to change is for an overhaul to the reserve system as a whole.

The simple fact is PBS is beneficial for the company's bottom line and nothing more than that.

E175 Driver
01-29-2018, 04:04 AM
Anyone who wants to know about PBS and how it will impact your QOL, go ask a senior FA how their transition to PBS was like during and after bankruptcy. I encourage you to ask not one, but many out there. That will give you a true barometer as to how “positive” the impact will be.


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My AA mentor loves PBS. He basically gets what he wants and get plenty of time off.

Subpilot
01-29-2018, 05:38 AM
My AA mentor loves PBS. He basically gets what he wants and get plenty of time off.

Who is he... E190 Driver?

E175 Driver
01-29-2018, 05:54 AM
Who is he... E190 Driver?

767 Checkairman. But thats irrelevant.;)

SilentLurker
01-29-2018, 06:06 AM
767 Checkairman. But thats irrelevant.;)

In other words, your Daddy. Nice.

Virga show
01-29-2018, 08:02 AM
My AA mentor loves PBS. He basically gets what he wants and get plenty of time off.

I feel sorry for your AA mentor. He must be a douche as well to have to talk to you in person and like it.

highflyer1980
01-29-2018, 08:31 AM
Talk to guys at Skywest. I haven't heard anyone who likes it. The only people who don't mind PBS are those in the top 30% of seniority. Everyone else gets screwed.



I DTS most of my vacations so losing the extra week or two of free time, give or take, is a game changer for a lot of folks.



The bottom line here is that PBS only benefits the company. What do the we get out of it as a benefit? I have neither seen nor heard of any major positive aspect that improves QOL from PBS. Supposedly there will be less people on reserve. Supposedly. I highly doubt that will change seeing that this company's reserve system revolves around 1/3 of the pilot group being on reserve. And the only way for that to change is for an overhaul to the reserve system as a whole.



The simple fact is PBS is beneficial for the company's bottom line and nothing more than that.



My point exactly. That’s why I said ask “any senior FA” because at the time they were NOT senior. Now they will say it’s alright because they have the seniority. I remember when it first came out only the top 15% got what they bid for. Everyone else got nothing close to their PBS preferences. I understand it’s a change, but from what I witnessed years ago is this isn’t something the pilots should seek nor want.


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inevitableneb
01-29-2018, 08:38 AM
My point exactly. That’s why I said ask “any senior FA” because at the time they were NOT senior. Now they will say it’s alright because they have the seniority. I remember when it first came out only the top 15% got what they bid for. Everyone else got nothing close to their PBS preferences. I understand it’s a change, but from what I witnessed years ago is this isn’t something the pilots should seek nor want.


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The thing about PBS is there are hundreds of variations of the product. It's like saying 'Cars are bad!'. There are some versions of PBS which would be a significant improvement for Envoy pilots. For instance allegent has a good PBS that includes a SAP. Nav blue is another popular one. Realize that the arilines that have the best QOL in the entire industry have PBS. DAL, UAL, AA, Jet Blue.

CaptJackSparrow
01-29-2018, 09:02 AM
767 Checkairman. But thats irrelevant.;)

Im pretty sure LCAs at AA don't bid with PBS like normal line holders do but nice try.

SilentLurker
01-29-2018, 09:09 AM
The thing about PBS is there are hundreds of variations of the product. It's like saying 'Cars are bad!'. There are some versions of PBS which would be a significant improvement for Envoy pilots. For instance allegent has a good PBS that includes a SAP. Nav blue is another popular one. Realize that the arilines that have the best QOL in the entire industry have PBS. DAL, UAL, AA, Jet Blue.



Exactly! This is my point also. To say PBS is bad is just fear mongering.

It’s like claiming sex is bad. Depends on many factors, who, “where”, when, and “how.”

“PBS is bad ummkayyy. Ask our old-er flight attendants. 4 yrs ago how they liked it“

402FreightDog
01-29-2018, 09:09 AM
Talk to guys at Skywest. I haven't heard anyone who likes it. The only people who don't mind PBS are those in the top 30% of seniority. Everyone else gets screwed.

I DTS most of my vacations so losing the extra week or two of free time, give or take, is a game changer for a lot of folks.

The bottom line here is that PBS only benefits the company. What do the we get out of it as a benefit? I have neither seen nor heard of any major positive aspect that improves QOL from PBS. Supposedly there will be less people on reserve. Supposedly. I highly doubt that will change seeing that this company's reserve system revolves around 1/3 of the pilot group being on reserve. And the only way for that to change is for an overhaul to the reserve system as a whole.

The simple fact is PBS is beneficial for the company's bottom line and nothing more than that.
A while back I posted asking about what a better reserve would look like.

One of the responses stated that Envoy revolves around having a reserve pool that is as deep as it it to avoid late departures. I get that, but the system is still incredibly inefficient FOR THE COMPANY as well as the pilots. The company is PAYING A WHOLE LOT OF GUYS TO NOT FLY. There has to be something better that would be beneficial to both parties. A more efficient reserve would save the company money and less people on reserve should mean less time on reserve as a pilot which I think most people would see as an improvement.

CaptJackSparrow
01-29-2018, 09:16 AM
Exactly! This is my point also. To say PBS is bad is just fear mongering.

It’s like claiming sex is bad. Depends on many factors, who, “where”, when, and “how.”

“PBS is bad ummkayyy. Ask our old-er flight attendants. 4 yrs ago how they liked it“
What makes you think that Envoy's PBS will mirror any of those mentioned carriers versus other regionals PBS systems such as Mesa? If I was a betting man I'd say it would be very different from AA's system.

inevitableneb
01-29-2018, 09:17 AM
A while back I posted asking about what a better reserve would look like.

One of the responses stated that Envoy revolves around having a reserve pool that is as deep as it it to avoid late departures. I get that, but the system is still incredibly inefficient FOR THE COMPANY as well as the pilots. The company is PAYING A WHOLE LOT OF GUYS TO NOT FLY. There has to be something better that would be beneficial to both parties. A more efficient reserve would save the company money and less people on reserve should mean less time on reserve as a pilot which I think most people would see as an improvement.Flying is seasonal, employment at envoy isn't. We are way overstaffed for Jan February March, but not so much for the summer. Last summer there were NO OFE reserves for about a month. None, not one. They plan to stretch our staffing thin again this summer. Reserve goes in cycles as to how many people are on it. The best reserve system is the one your on the least

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highflyer1980
01-29-2018, 09:34 AM
Exactly! This is my point also. To say PBS is bad is just fear mongering.

It’s like claiming sex is bad. Depends on many factors, who, “where”, when, and “how.”

“PBS is bad ummkayyy. Ask our old-er flight attendants. 4 yrs ago how they liked it“



Fear mongering? I was there man. If it is exactly the same vendor four years ago, the same vendor used for FAs now, it is crap. Not to even mention the IT issues it has too. I had to use a specific version of a certain web browser just to get it to work!!! (On a windows system WTF?). The only person who benefits from PBS is the company. The PBS workgroup even did roadshows and I was shocked that they would even chose such awful software. It performed like it was wrote in a computer science class at a community college.

Now I would be willing to entertain a different vendor (at least more user friendly) while the pilots control the majority of the pairings, then I would love to sing a different tune.

Until then I will be a big fat NO!


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ORDinary
01-29-2018, 09:35 AM
The thing about PBS is there are hundreds of variations of the product. It's like saying 'Cars are bad!'. There are some versions of PBS which would be a significant improvement for Envoy pilots. For instance allegent has a good PBS that includes a SAP. Nav blue is another popular one. Realize that the arilines that have the best QOL in the entire industry have PBS. DAL, UAL, AA, Jet Blue.

Assuming we would end up with one of the good versions of PBS agreements is unrealistic. Also comparing mainline QoL to ours is a joke, right? You really think the reason mainline DAL, UAL, and AA all have better QoL than envoy is because of their PBS??? Come on.

Yes there are hundreds of versions, but we already have an idea of what it would be like for us......http://eagle.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Kjck%2f8%2fXCyg%3d&tabid=6677 Pilots had no control over the pairings. If you don't think that old agreement would be a starting point I think maybe you don't realize who we are dealing with here. They do not negotiate in good faith. And this is zero sum: anything about our scheduling that is saving the company money is costing us.

DTS and transition conflict pay would be lost with PBS. Currently anyone with 3 weeks vacation can turn it into 6 or 7 weeks off. And anyone with a transition conflict can get paid twice for a day or two of work. Giving these up are concessions.

DanRoman
01-29-2018, 11:20 AM
Assuming we would end up with one of the good versions of PBS agreements is unrealistic. Also comparing mainline QoL to ours is a joke, right? You really think the reason mainline DAL, UAL, and AA all have better QoL than envoy is because of their PBS??? Come on.

Yes there are hundreds of versions, but we already have an idea of what it would be like for us......http://eagle.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Kjck%2f8%2fXCyg%3d&tabid=6677 Pilots had no control over the pairings. If you don't think that old agreement would be a starting point I think maybe you don't realize who we are dealing with here. They do not negotiate in good faith. And this is zero sum: anything about our scheduling that is saving the company money is costing us.

DTS and transition conflict pay would be lost with PBS. Currently anyone with 3 weeks vacation can turn it into 6 or 7 weeks off. And anyone with a transition conflict can get paid twice for a day or two of work. Giving these up are concessions.

I couldn’t agree more.

TheGoodOne
01-29-2018, 11:29 AM
Assuming we would end up with one of the good versions of PBS agreements is unrealistic. Also comparing mainline QoL to ours is a joke, right? You really think the reason mainline DAL, UAL, and AA all have better QoL than envoy is because of their PBS??? Come on.

Yes there are hundreds of versions, but we already have an idea of what it would be like for us......http://eagle.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=Kjck%2f8%2fXCyg%3d&tabid=6677 Pilots had no control over the pairings. If you don't think that old agreement would be a starting point I think maybe you don't realize who we are dealing with here. They do not negotiate in good faith. And this is zero sum: anything about our scheduling that is saving the company money is costing us.

DTS and transition conflict pay would be lost with PBS. Currently anyone with 3 weeks vacation can turn it into 6 or 7 weeks off. And anyone with a transition conflict can get paid twice for a day or two of work. Giving these up are concessions.

Begging forgiveness for my ignorance, but isn’t this mathematically not quite correct?

The flights and times are what they are. The company pays for those. Thus, the company doesn’t gain with PBS from a pay for hours flown perspective.

Pilots who “use” the system, albeit following the contract, are the ones who would lose. As you describe ... and by reduced overtime opportunities and likely critical coverage opportunities. There would also be fewer opportunities to “sit reserve” and then grab overtime on their days off.

However, other pilots, especially junior seniority pilots, would gain because they would get lines, have less reserve, and commute for no reason less often. Aren’t those all things that are complained out a LOT here on this forum?

So, it seems that PBS would “spread the wealth” across the flock of pilots whilst reducing overtime and other costs for the company.

Am I missing something?

TheGoodOne
01-29-2018, 11:38 AM
Begging forgiveness for my ignorance, but isn’t this mathematically not quite correct?

The flights and times are what they are. The company pays for those. Thus, the company doesn’t gain with PBS from a pay for hours flown perspective.

Pilots who “use” the system, albeit following the contract, are the ones who would lose. As you describe ... and by reduced overtime opportunities and likely critical coverage opportunities. There would also be fewer opportunities to “sit reserve” and then grab overtime on their days off.

However, other pilots, especially junior seniority pilots, would gain because they would get lines, have less reserve, and commute for no reason less often. Aren’t those all things that are complained out a LOT here on this forum?

So, it seems that PBS would “spread the wealth” across the flock of pilots whilst reducing overtime and other costs for the company.

Am I missing something?

PS Not that one of couldn’t choose to sit reserve ... just that it would be much more difficult, less likely, to do that AND get some overtime.

inevitableneb
01-29-2018, 12:45 PM
Fear mongering? I was there man. If it is exactly the same vendor four years ago, the same vendor used for FAs now, it is crap. Not to even mention the IT issues it has too. I had to use a specific version of a certain web browser just to get it to work!!! (On a windows system WTF?). The only person who benefits from PBS is the company. The PBS workgroup even did roadshows and I was shocked that they would even chose such awful software. It performed like it was wrote in a computer science class at a community college.

Now I would be willing to entertain a different vendor (at least more user friendly) while the pilots control the majority of the pairings, then I would love to sing a different tune.

Until then I will be a big fat NO!


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This makes all lot of sense. I didn't know the previously proposed system was so bad.

FlyyGuyy
01-29-2018, 01:01 PM
Im pretty sure LCAs at AA don't bid with PBS like normal line holders do but nice try.

This is 100% correct.

bigtime209
01-29-2018, 04:21 PM
Exactly! This is my point also. To say PBS is bad is just fear mongering.

It’s like claiming sex is bad. Depends on many factors, who, “where”, when, and “how.”

“PBS is bad ummkayyy. Ask our old-er flight attendants. 4 yrs ago how they liked it“

For those of us who were actually here when we were seriously working on rolling out PBS can speak to how terrible PBS would be for this pilot group. We were trained on the software, we had mock parallel bids using current line bidding and PBS bidding, and we had a clear view of what PBS would look like once it launched here at Enovy. It was terrible. And as others have mentioned, losing DTS would be a HUGE loss, especially now that we only get 14 days of vacation a year until year 8 pay. No conflict pay, huge reduction in OT. Just not good. But I guess I'm just fear mongering. I'm glad you new guys have it all figured out.

CaptJackSparrow
01-29-2018, 05:17 PM
For those of us who were actually here when we were seriously working on rolling out PBS can speak to how terrible PBS would be for this pilot group. We were trained on the software, we had mock parallel bids using current line bidding and PBS bidding, and we had a clear view of what PBS would look like once it launched here at Enovy. It was terrible. And as others have mentioned, losing DTS would be a HUGE loss, especially now that we only get 14 days of vacation a year until year 8 pay. No conflict pay, huge reduction in OT. Just not good. But I guess I'm just fear mongering. I'm glad you new guys have it all figured out.
This.

They'll do anything to get off reserve for what 4 months now?! Boohoo. That would have been a dream for many guys here who spent 3.5+ years at the bottom on reserve. Thankfully they can't vote on probation.

ORDinary
01-29-2018, 05:31 PM
For those of us who were actually here when we were seriously working on rolling out PBS can speak to how terrible PBS would be for this pilot group. We were trained on the software, we had mock parallel bids using current line bidding and PBS bidding, and we had a clear view of what PBS would look like once it launched here at Enovy. It was terrible. And as others have mentioned, losing DTS would be a HUGE loss, especially now that we only get 14 days of vacation a year until year 8 pay. No conflict pay, huge reduction in OT. Just not good. But I guess I'm just fear mongering. I'm glad you new guys have it all figured out.

This, exactly. I was a PBS trainer. And I've always been a strong no vote against it. This PBS agreement is no good, and PBS in general is a set of concessions. I don't understand why any pilot in their right mind would consider a single concession right now.

SilentLurker
01-29-2018, 06:28 PM
and by reduced overtime opportunities and likely critical coverage opportunities. There would also be fewer opportunities to “sit reserve” and then grab overtime on their days off.



However, other pilots, especially junior seniority pilots, would gain because they would get lines, have less reserve, and commute for no reason less often. Aren’t those all things that are complained out a LOT here on this forum?



So, it seems that PBS would “spread the wealth” across the flock of pilots whilst reducing overtime and other costs for the company.



Am I missing something?


Good OT available at Piedmont, Mesa, and Endeavor. Plus at a higher rate. Are they not using using PBS??? That fear tactic and mongering is Obsolete. FA’s are not Pilots. Their negotiators are not ours either.

Plus rebuttals I hear “No OT available” is bull. Really big bull crap from the Hell No’ers who will flow soon. Does OT availability not depend on the month and season, and staffing? Are there tons of “good OT” available now with the current system in February and March? With the current system is “good OT” available every single month of the year? You all know the answer. So why do “PBS Hell No’ers” keep saying that also. It’s a mute point.

If the possibility exist for ALPA, plus a good vendor to be in control, then it’s worth a shot in my eyes me! Greater good for the majority. Senior lifers and junior guys benefit the most. We won’t know until it’s negotiated if the door is open, but to say HELL NO, off the bat is bat**** retarded.

We want reserve fixed, yes granted PBS does not fix it completely, but the number/amount of our fellow pilots who are effected by crap reserve rules, inefficiencies, lost days, early commute in the day before, to sit Stby/RAP1 etc, could be dramatically reduced. We keep doing the same thing yet expect some different result? insanity.

moon
01-29-2018, 07:00 PM
What has happened here? People are actually arguing for PBS? There's a reason Envoy put a 7 million dollar price tag on it. It saves them 7 million dollars that could be in pilots pockets. And yes there is good OT. Trips get put in there for training, vacation, transition, 7 days, DTS. And all that would be covered day 1 of the month with PBS so that means the only OT available would be the few turns they couldn't slide into somebodys schedule or waiting for someone to call in sick. It's not worth the few months of reserve people are subject to now. When did this pilot group lose their mind on PBS?

Pedro4President
01-29-2018, 07:04 PM
If the possibility exist for ALPA, plus a good vendor to be in control, then it’s worth a shot in my eyes me! Greater good for the majority. Senior lifers and junior guys benefit the most. We won’t know until it’s negotiated if the door is open, but to say HELL NO, off the bat is bat**** retarded.


I'm sorry but this is what everyone is thinking but aren't saying. We are tired of the lifers and the new guys getting all the goods and leaving the rest of the pilots to suffer. Lifers kept their 4 and 5 weeks of vacation and you only get two maybe three one day. Lifers kept their top pay but will we ever see it if the hiring stops? New guys getting 20/45k in signing bonuses. We get forced upgrades and displacements. So your argument that it's going to help the senior and junior guys is lost on deaf ears.

PBS means less days off for me. PBS means less pay for me. PBS means I have to work more to make the same amount of money. So no thanks on PBS.

ORDinary
01-29-2018, 07:30 PM
When did this pilot group lose their mind on PBS?

Hopefully it is only Silent Lurker who has lost his mind on it. For everyone's sake.

CaptJackSparrow
01-29-2018, 07:42 PM
Good OT available at Piedmont, Mesa, and Endeavor. Plus at a higher rate. Are they not using using PBS??? That fear tactic and mongering is Obsolete. FA’s are not Pilots. Their negotiators are not ours either.

Plus rebuttals I hear “No OT available” is bull. Really big bull crap from the Hell No’ers who will flow soon. Does OT availability not depend on the month and season, and staffing? Are there tons of “good OT” available now with the current system in February and March? With the current system is “good OT” available every single month of the year? You all know the answer. So why do “PBS Hell No’ers” keep saying that also. It’s a mute point.

If the possibility exist for ALPA, plus a good vendor to be in control, then it’s worth a shot in my eyes me! Greater good for the majority. Senior lifers and junior guys benefit the most. We won’t know until it’s negotiated if the door is open, but to say HELL NO, off the bat is bat**** retarded.

We want reserve fixed, yes granted PBS does not fix it completely, but the number/amount of our fellow pilots who are effected by crap reserve rules, inefficiencies, lost days, early commute in the day before, to sit Stby/RAP1 etc, could be dramatically reduced. We keep doing the same thing yet expect some different result? insanity.

Wow. Might as well just donate your paycheck to the company while you're at it. I keep saying it but it's the mentality like this that gets us killed at the negotiating table.

Baradium
01-29-2018, 07:50 PM
What has happened here? People are actually arguing for PBS? There's a reason Envoy put a 7 million dollar price tag on it. It saves them 7 million dollars that could be in pilots pockets. And yes there is good OT. Trips get put in there for training, vacation, transition, 7 days, DTS. And all that would be covered day 1 of the month with PBS so that means the only OT available would be the few turns they couldn't slide into somebodys schedule or waiting for someone to call in sick. It's not worth the few months of reserve people are subject to now. When did this pilot group lose their mind on PBS?

Not an Envoy pilot, I'm just trying to keep up with what's going on industry wide. I wanted to chime in though on this one and say that with PBS this isn't true in any form I've experienced of it. Due to how the trips are laid out in start/end sequences as well as things like pre-scheduled events there is an efficiency point for open time because the system can no longer build a productive line with what's left (IE you'd get some lines built to less work than guarantee).

As prior Endeavor I know there is language there that involves the amount of open time at the end of bid construction and the bid windows, reserve amounts and even credit push*.

What it comes down to is it's a matter of what you get in the language for PBS that makes it good or bad. Generally speaking, it accentuates your seniority. A senior pilot will get a better schedule, a junior pilot will get a worse one and a mid seniority pilot will hardly know a difference. One really nice thing about PBS is the ability to have a "standing bid." You enter a bid with what you generally want and can either leave it as is or tweak it each month. Once you understand how the system works you can make the best possible schedule for yourself without having to do anything month to month.



A big problem you can run into is the rules the company can use and control. Since the system knows your prior month's schedule it can put you wherever the company wants relative to legalities. If the system is allowed to build you a 75 hr line you and there are productive trips then you can get away with a nice high time off line. This is how Endeavor has traditionally been able to award 17-18 day off lines. But the company also has the option of forcing everyone into 85-90 hour lines (or whatever parameters they input). Another thing they can do is called a credit push (alluded to above) which is when it finishes building lines an reaches a set number of reserves the company wants has more open time than they want left. In this case the system re-runs the lines but starting from the bottom of the seniority list pilots start to have a higher credit window (lines still run in seniority but a senior pilot might be allowed a 75 hour line, if desired, while a junior pilot is forced to a 90 hour line).


What it comes down to is the language can be written in a way that allows good schedules and even ways for the extra pay (at Endeavor you can volunteer to work a higher value line and get premium pay on certain flying on your actual line award instead of needing to pick up open time). It can also allow greater flexibility in days off and larger blocks of days off than you may see with line bidding.

But on the other hand, if there are no restrictions every pilot might always work an 85-90 hour line at 11-12 days off regardless of how senior they are.


What I'm getting at is that PBS isn't necessarily a horrible thing. It really can be a benefit to both you and the company.... but the language is very important to ensure that there is a benefit to the pilot group.

Cpt Rex Kramer
01-30-2018, 08:24 AM
What I'm getting at is that PBS isn't necessarily a horrible thing. It really can be a benefit to both you and the company.... but the language is very important to ensure that there is a benefit to the pilot group.

Sadly the company doesn't have a great track record of agreeing to 'reasonable' language and the thought of leaving them alone to throw the PBS switches is not comforting.

pitchattitude
01-30-2018, 11:36 AM
Drop Trip Sequence

Basically, as a line holder, if your vacation block touches any sequence, the “left-over” days on either end are dropped. You’re only paid for the days within your vacation block. The dropped days surrounding your vacation are unpaid.
Question on how DTS works. Vacation blocks begin on Saturday, so by touch, your affected trip has to end on Saturday or Sunday say, NOT Friday? Most don’t have weekends off, so you would probably be able to get something that overlaps on both ends, but again, it is overlapping to be considered touching?

BIueSideUp
01-30-2018, 01:49 PM
A big problem you can run into is the rules the company can use and control. Since the system knows your prior month's schedule it can put you wherever the company wants...

... if there are no restrictions every pilot might always work an 85-90 hour line at 11-12 days off regardless of how senior they are.


It would be this ^^^

3EngineTaxi
01-30-2018, 02:53 PM
Question on how DTS works. Vacation blocks begin on Saturday, so by touch, your affected trip has to end on Saturday or Sunday say, NOT Friday? Most don’t have weekends off, so you would probably be able to get something that overlaps on both ends, but again, it is overlapping to be considered touching?
You are correct. If your trip ends on Friday, you can't DTS. If your trip extends into your vacation week (Saturday), you can use DTS. The trip has to overlap your vacation block at least one day to use DTS.

Subpilot
01-30-2018, 03:14 PM
You are correct. If your trip ends on Friday, you can't DTS. If your trip extends into your vacation week (Saturday), you can use DTS. The trip has to overlap your vacation block at least one day to use DTS.

That is when you slide and then DTS. it’s all in the contract and it’s not really that hard to understand.

Cujo665
02-06-2018, 10:08 AM
That is when you slide and then DTS. it’s all in the contract and it’s not really that hard to understand.

Slides are to avoid schedule conflicts, not create them. They won’t slide a no conflict schedule into a conflict (or at least they shouldn’t be).

Subpilot
02-06-2018, 06:46 PM
Slides are to avoid schedule conflicts, not create them. They won’t slide a no conflict schedule into a conflict (or at least they shouldn’t be).

I do agree with that. Slides are only to reduce conflicts. My bad.