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View Full Version : Need your thoughts etiquette


flysooner9
01-25-2018, 07:40 PM
Have a question on etiquette. I am scheduled for recurrent coming up in early April. However there is a good chance i am leaving for an airline this summer. Should i tell my chief pilot that i plan on leaving this summer and that i don't want to waste their money sending me to recurrent (could still fly as SIC till i left). Or just not worry about it, go to recurrent then leave this summer.

What is the best thing to do? I prefer not to burn any bridges but at the same time they haven't exactly gone out of their way to take care of me. Thoughts?


dbflyer
01-25-2018, 08:08 PM
If you don't have a firm job lined up, with a specific departure date I don't think it is unreasonable for you to go to re-current. Then you can continue to do the job they need you to do until you are ready to let them know you are leaving.

On the other hand, I know my boss would not hold it against me if I told him I was exploring other options so I'd feel free to let him know my concern that I wanted to be fair to the company. He'd appreciate the openness and maybe even have a discussion of whether there was anything he could do to make we want to stay.

If you don't have that kind of relationship and you think you'd be punished for looking even if you decide to stay, then better to not say anything until you are ready to give notice.

My $.02 but there are so many variables we don't know about your history with the company that it is hard to give a simple answer.

Mink
01-25-2018, 08:24 PM
If you have a CJO and / or class date at an airline then probably good to tell the boss “no thanks” on the recurrent. If not, do the recurrent as if you were sticking around.


rogersmith
01-25-2018, 09:51 PM
Would your employer let you know months in advance if they were planning on downsizing?(ie selling the plane/ laying you off) Odds are they wouldn't. I'd say don't worry about it and go to recurrent, it's a cost of doing business they have already factored in.

GVCPT
01-26-2018, 01:10 AM
From a chief pilot's perspective, you should let him know. That is if you are not wanting to burn any bridges. As you said, you can still fly as SIC and earn your paycheck until you leave for the airlines. If the offer goes away you can attend recurrent at a later date.
Rogersmith made the comment that it's already factored in the budget, but I'm here to tell you that may not be the case. Yes the recurrent is factored in but what about the cost of recruiting, integrating and possibly sending the new hire to an initial. Depending upon the stability of your current flight department, that may not have been factored in. I see to many guys that think the world owes them something. When costs go up the bean counters start looking at places to cut. The flight department is one of the first places they look. Also think about the older guys in the flight department that may not have an airline offer or are too old to start one. Your actions could shutter a flight department and put these guys on the street. Put yourself in the Chief Pilot's/Director of Aviation's shoes, wouldn't you want to know?

Vital Signs
01-26-2018, 03:34 AM
Always turns out to be a 1 way street. Pilot is to show the company some respect but the company shows crap when its their turn.
Seen too many operators withhold valuable information right up to the last day.
Rant over

All depends on your chief and how you think he will handle it. Will he respect you telling him or will he just hand you your last check?
Do what your conscience tells you.

Panzon
01-26-2018, 04:08 AM
GVCPT describes the way the world should be.
Vital Signs and rogersmith describe the way the world is.

Go to recurrent and don’t give your employer a heads up. 1) You may choose to go to your prospective new employer for a variety of reasons. 2) Your prospective new employer may choose not to bring you on board for a variety of reasons. If either happens, you will be glad you can continue in your current position.

There is a tremendous amount of movement within the industry. If a Chief Pilot does not have contingency plans and does not have a pilot replacement strategy he is not terrribly smart.

GVCPT
01-26-2018, 04:55 AM
As I said, "if you don't want to burn bridges". This is from my experience from my flight department. If you are comfortable not saying anything, then by all means go to recurrent. You better hope that airline doesn't start furloughing pilots. Corporate aviation is a small world, if you have a questionable moral ethic, word will spread and good jobs will be hard to come by. By the way, any Director of Aviation/Chief Pilot worth his salt will let the guys on the line know if troubles are brewing.

flysooner9
01-26-2018, 05:59 AM
I may or may not have a CJO by the time recurrent comes but probamt won’t yet. We’re a small 2 man shop, 1 airplane. Makes it sort of a harder situation because the other guy is a friend but still technically boss. Other slightly complicating factor is I have a vacation scheduled for the end of May. Little worried If I told them way in advance I was leaving that they wouldn’t allow me to take vacation or force me to quit prior to my vacation if I wanted to keep it.

Champeen07
01-26-2018, 06:46 AM
If it was me, I would inform that I was planning on leaving. That way they can plan to have someone on board when you leave, and everybody is happy because they had time to plan everything out. They should think highly of you for doing it that way. If they want to fire you and not give you vacation at that point, well they are just a bad operation and you don't want to be there anyway. I would be willing to guess that it goes the way of the first part of my post, not the second.

Packrat
01-26-2018, 07:00 AM
You can't tell them anything concrete without an airline job offer. Go to recurrent. When you get your CJO give them two weeks notice before your class date. That's the standard in U.S. employment.

1Taco
01-26-2018, 07:23 AM
Where’d you end up getting hired at?

flysooner9
01-26-2018, 08:47 AM
Nowhere yet.

BoilerUP
01-26-2018, 08:52 AM
Never give notice you are, or might be, leaving until you are CERTAIN you are leaving, ie. have an accepted job offer.

Never.

Did I mention never?

Counting chickens before they hatch is bad juju, and trying to 'do the right thing' for your employer could lead to them replacing you before you are ready to leave - if you even end up having the choice.

And yes, I am a former CP of a small 2 pilot/2 aircraft Part 91 flight department who gave my boss six weeks notice that I was leaving.

galaxy flyer
01-26-2018, 11:57 AM
First Law of Wing-walking: Never let go of something without a firm grasp on the next thing.

I’ve been in both shoes and lost several guys on short notice. Go recurrent, if it soothes things over be available to some some brief contracting IF it fits with your new job.

GF

dbflyer
01-26-2018, 04:10 PM
Little worried If I told them way in advance I was leaving that they wouldn’t allow me to take vacation or force me to quit prior to my vacation if I wanted to keep it.

If this is true, then you probably shouldn't say anything.

I know at my company, vacation is earned compensation for the work I've already done. I either get to take it or I get paid for it when I leave.

Sounds like if you get the chance, you definitely need to leave for a new job.

Vital Signs
01-26-2018, 04:22 PM
If this is true, then you probably shouldn't say anything.

I know at my company, vacation is earned compensation for the work I've already done. I either get to take it or I get paid for it when I leave.

Sounds like if you get the chance, you definitely need to leave for a new job.

Depends on your state laws. Read the fine print. Some do not pay you, I know from personal experience.

dbflyer
01-27-2018, 07:02 AM
Depends on your state laws. Read the fine print. Some do not pay you, I know from personal experience.

I agree, I was not offering HR advice and if that is how it came across I'm sorry. I was just pointing out how my company handles it regardless of what our state laws are (I have no idea) and I think it is an indicator of a good company that respects their employees. I can't imagine our department cancelling someones vacation just out of spite because they are leaving or to save a buck at the end of their employment. In the rare chance someone can not take a planned vacation due to urgent unforeseen operational needs (It's happened once in 10 years), we'd not only pay out their vacation time at the end of the year, we'd pay for any expenses they've already incurred such as airline tickets and cancellation fees.

To me the OP's concern about losing vacation is just another reason why more and more corporate pilots are leaving for the airlines and love the idea of having a contract.

Unless there is a big change soon that slows down the airlines, I don't see how these types of operators will be able to attract or keep anyone with more than 1500hrs. Interesting days indeed.:)

Jodi
02-02-2018, 05:22 PM
Never give notice you are, or might be, leaving until you are CERTAIN you are leaving, ie. have an accepted job offer.

Never.

Did I mention never?

Counting chickens before they hatch is bad juju, and trying to 'do the right thing' for your employer could lead to them replacing you before you are ready to leave - if you even end up having the choice.

And yes, I am a former CP of a small 2 pilot/2 aircraft Part 91 flight department who gave my boss six weeks notice that I was leaving.
Absolutely spot on. It's nothing personal, it's business.

Varietyjones
02-04-2018, 10:33 AM
Looks like I sway against the hives opinion on this one but I'd say it depends on your relationship with the boss. I think they would appreciate the forwardness of honesty and the savings on your recurrent training.

A coworker was talking behind the bosses back about his near departure. Once he found out the person was let go on the spot. On the other hand I gave him plenty of notice that I wouldn't be going back to school and it didn't hurt the last 6mo here. I've even been offered contract work in the future.

Bozo
02-05-2018, 07:52 AM
Have a question on etiquette. I am scheduled for recurrent coming up in early April. However there is a good chance i am leaving for an airline this summer.

Chance? I would not recommend giving notice until you have a specific class date and a letter of job offer from the airline and then 2 weeks notice. Things change daily in the airline business.

Example. 911.

Flyfalcons
02-05-2018, 08:17 AM
Go to recurrent, and give your employer two weeks notice if/when you get a class date. Especially if your departure is several months after recurrent, if your employer has a problem with it then it's their problem and not yours. Remember this always - it's just business.

V1 McFlyerson
02-05-2018, 08:35 AM
I notified my boss 6 weeks prior to a class date and 2 weeks prior to recurrent that I was leaving. I thought it would be a little shady to spend all that money on training/airline tickets/hotels/meals for only a month of currency. I was naive in trying to do the right thing and really caused more trouble than necessary.

I offered to stay on as an SIC for 6 weeks but he let me go right then. I guess he took it personally that I wanted to leave, and there were lots of 500 hour CFI types SIC'ing for us anyway.

I ended up filing for, and being awarded, unemployment benefits. The bridge with that boss was definitely burned.

Maybe your situation would turnout differently, but I wouldn't handle my own situation that way again. I'd keep it professional and stick with customary norms. That was a ridiculous amount of drama over trying to go above and beyond for a company/business owner.

loganeich
02-05-2018, 03:40 PM
I tried to give a major corporation a 3 week notice before leaving, but had my laptop taken that morning, got lunch from my boss, and was gone by the afternoon. I would in no way give some company a multiple month notice and hope for the best by being a team player. I would keep working as normal, and give a customary 2 week notice.

Otters
02-06-2018, 07:34 AM
Chance? I would not recommend giving notice until you have a specific class date and a letter of job offer from the airline and then 2 weeks notice. Things change daily in the airline business.

Example. 911.

Do or say nothing until class date in hand. I’d even try vacation right up to class date. As for deferring training, my departments insurance was set up such that we couldn’t not go to training. If we didn’t have training in previous 12 months, other issues arose. I’m amazed at how many people are doing the right thing but the company does not.

I remember my first day at my 121 carrier and all the nice benefits and future wages. I thought wow. Then ALPA came in and asked us what we thought of all those great benefits. It was ALPA, NOT the company that got us those perks. You owe nothing to an employer except a thanks walking out the door.

Bruno82
02-06-2018, 08:17 AM
Do not say anything until you have a CJO. It's just business.

Al Czervik
02-06-2018, 03:30 PM
Good luck sooner!
Question (probably a dumb one at that) from a 121 guy: I see the ethical dilemmas but we are really talking cost, right? What’s a recurrent cost? 10K? Doesn’t the plane blow that out the back end in one day? Is it that big of a deal to fund one of these? I get it’s wasted money. I just didn’t know how tight the budgets are run.

TiredSoul
02-06-2018, 03:48 PM
Build a little cash fund if you can.
Go to recurrent.
At your interview tell the potential new employer that you would prefer to give as much notice as possible.
If it’s a small operation you may really yank their crank if you only give them two weeks.
You know a buddy that can take your place?
Give them 3-4 weeks notice and suggest they look at your buddies resume. If they let you go early out of spite, whatever...walk away with your head held high as you’ve taken the moral high road.

flysooner9
02-06-2018, 09:06 PM
Well I talked to the other pilot (technically the chief pilot). Thank you all for the advice. I basically laid it all out there and told him what I had planned. He was appreciated I let him know what was up. Basically left the choice up to me to go to training or not. So my plan is if I have a class date prior my recurrent date I’m not going to go. If I haven’t gotten a CJO yet then I’ll go to training.

My main reasoning for doing so is our operation is pretty close knit. We essentially just fly for two families. My compensation is low but otherwise they treat us very well and treat us with a lot of respect. Thus I want to return the favor.

Also the market in OKC is very small and close knit as well and I don’t want to risk making a bad name for myself Incase I ever need a job around here again.

TiredSoul
02-07-2018, 01:05 PM
You’ve done the right thing.
Can you recommend anybody to take your place?

mainlineAF
02-07-2018, 01:29 PM
Well I talked to the other pilot (technically the chief pilot). Thank you all for the advice. I basically laid it all out there and told him what I had planned. He was appreciated I let him know what was up. Basically left the choice up to me to go to training or not. So my plan is if I have a class date prior my recurrent date I’m not going to go. If I haven’t gotten a CJO yet then I’ll go to training.



My main reasoning for doing so is our operation is pretty close knit. We essentially just fly for two families. My compensation is low but otherwise they treat us very well and treat us with a lot of respect. Thus I want to return the favor.



Also the market in OKC is very small and close knit as well and I don’t want to risk making a bad name for myself Incase I ever need a job around here again.



Them being nice to you doesn’t pay the bills. If they respected you they’d pay you what you’re worth.

You’re just the help to these people.

Varietyjones
02-07-2018, 06:00 PM
Them being nice to you doesn’t pay the bills. If they respected you they’d pay you what you’re worth.

You’re just the help to these people.

lol. OP hasn't mentioned anywhere stating he has asked for or been denied a raise. If its the latter than agreed F em.

35Right
02-08-2018, 06:46 AM
If your current job is a flying job, will the current employer not find out via the PRIA request? How do you keep it to 2 weeks if you interview months in advance and the current employer gets the PRIA well before then?

Asking in general, not specifically about the OPs scenario.

flysooner9
02-14-2018, 02:05 PM
Well the owner knows now. He was very appreciative that i was straightforward with them. Wants to try to keep me but told him i have to pursue my dream of flying for a major and that staying here will greatly slow that down. He said i have a job until im ready to move on. I know each situation is different but for me being forward and honest with them seems like it will payoff. Never know when i might want back in the corporate market around here and i feel like i would get a strong recommendation from my current shop.

jonnyjetprop
02-19-2018, 12:01 AM
If your current job is a flying job, will the current employer not find out via the PRIA request? How do you keep it to 2 weeks if you interview months in advance and the current employer gets the PRIA well before then?

Asking in general, not specifically about the OPs scenario.

The soon to be former employer may not get the PRIA paperwork until notice is given. PRIA has to be complete before you fly in revenue service. The only required check is a clean drug screen before starting training.

jonnyjetprop
02-19-2018, 12:06 AM
You did the right thing.

He guessed or assessed his situation correctly. I'm not sure that a simular situation would have the same outcome. I'm one of the guys (twice, 135 and 121 supplemental, not corporate) who gave notice and was shown the door immediately.

Falcondrivr
02-21-2018, 05:40 AM
I’m glad doing what we all probably think is the right thing worked out! There are some good operators out there.

Just for fun here’s a story from my past:
I was working for a guy here in Tampa flying his really nice Navajo on a retainer/contract basis. I also flew a C90B for a 135 outfit part time. I received an offer from Ring Power (bid Caterpillar dealer) for a full time gig in their 350.
I told the Navajo guy that I was offered the new job and would be leaving for school in a couple of weeks. I had arranged for another contractor (one he really liked) to cover the trips while I was in 350 school. I also had gotten permission from Ring to continue to fly his airplane while helping him find and vet my replacement. I told him this on the outbound leg of a day trip.
While on the day layover, I received a call from the CP at Ring saying that he just got a call from the boss and my offer had been rescinded. He had no idea why. My Navajo guy shows up to go home and on the leg back tells me I’m fired.
Did I mention he was buddies with the owner of Ring? He later bragged to the guy who replaced me that he “fixed me” and that I’d never work in Tampa again. I found out years later that he called the owner at Ring and they decided to screw me together.
I will say that it was fun parking my 900EX next to his Navajo and waving a friendly “Hi Don! How’ve you been?” About a year later on the ramp...

flysooner9
02-22-2018, 08:34 PM
I’m glad doing what we all probably think is the right thing worked out! There are some good operators out there.

Just for fun here’s a story from my past:
I was working for a guy here in Tampa flying his really nice Navajo on a retainer/contract basis. I also flew a C90B for a 135 outfit part time. I received an offer from Ring Power (bid Caterpillar dealer) for a full time gig in their 350.
I told the Navajo guy that I was offered the new job and would be leaving for school in a couple of weeks. I had arranged for another contractor (one he really liked) to cover the trips while I was in 350 school. I also had gotten permission from Ring to continue to fly his airplane while helping him find and vet my replacement. I told him this on the outbound leg of a day trip.
While on the day layover, I received a call from the CP at Ring saying that he just got a call from the boss and my offer had been rescinded. He had no idea why. My Navajo guy shows up to go home and on the leg back tells me I’m fired.
Did I mention he was buddies with the owner of Ring? He later bragged to the guy who replaced me that he “fixed me” and that I’d never work in Tampa again. I found out years later that he called the owner at Ring and they decided to screw me together.
I will say that it was fun parking my 900EX next to his Navajo and waving a friendly “Hi Don! How’ve you been?” About a year later on the ramp...

Jokes on him now probably with the increasing shortage of pilots especially for intro corporate stuff.

Total BS
02-23-2018, 03:53 AM
Kudos for heeding your conscience, but 2 weeks notice is the standard in and out of aviation and will burn no bridge in a professional environment.

upontheblue
02-24-2018, 03:14 PM
I think it's safe to say that I've had a 'sheltered' life in my airline career because I simply 'don't get it' as to why the Navajo guy was such a 'rat.' For that matter, so was the Ring guy.

After all, you did the 'right' thing. You gave ample notice and even went beyond that by finding a suitable replacement.

I hope the Navajo guy likes warm weather because I'm convinced that there must be a special place in Hell for people like him. There is simply no excuse for his behavior.

I’m glad doing what we all probably think is the right thing worked out! There are some good operators out there.

Just for fun here’s a story from my past:
I was working for a guy here in Tampa flying his really nice Navajo on a retainer/contract basis. I also flew a C90B for a 135 outfit part time. I received an offer from Ring Power (bid Caterpillar dealer) for a full time gig in their 350.
I told the Navajo guy that I was offered the new job and would be leaving for school in a couple of weeks. I had arranged for another contractor (one he really liked) to cover the trips while I was in 350 school. I also had gotten permission from Ring to continue to fly his airplane while helping him find and vet my replacement. I told him this on the outbound leg of a day trip.
While on the day layover, I received a call from the CP at Ring saying that he just got a call from the boss and my offer had been rescinded. He had no idea why. My Navajo guy shows up to go home and on the leg back tells me I’m fired.
Did I mention he was buddies with the owner of Ring? He later bragged to the guy who replaced me that he “fixed me” and that I’d never work in Tampa again. I found out years later that he called the owner at Ring and they decided to screw me together.
I will say that it was fun parking my 900EX next to his Navajo and waving a friendly “Hi Don! How’ve you been?” About a year later on the ramp...



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