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View Full Version : While Jetblue Stagnates....


PasserOGas
01-26-2018, 02:41 PM
http://fortune.com/2018/01/26/united-airlines-stock-capacity/


Bluedriver
01-26-2018, 06:44 PM
Yep. United growing up to 6% per year over the next 3 years. That's roughly as fast as us, and they have retirements, wide-bodies and a great CONTRACT!

Bozo the pilot
01-26-2018, 08:44 PM
Yep. United growing up to 6% per year over the next 3 years. That's roughly as fast as us, and they have retirements, wide-bodies and a great CONTRACT!

F the contract- Lets pray UAL buys us- Its the only way we see a CBA by 2020.


Xtreme87
01-27-2018, 12:10 AM
Yep. United growing up to 6% per year over the next 3 years. That's roughly as fast as us, and they have retirements, wide-bodies and a great CONTRACT!

Umm theyíre growing mostly RJ flying.

PasserOGas
01-27-2018, 03:40 AM
Umm theyíre growing mostly RJ flying.

They have scope. They cant just grow RJ flying, plus staffing issues continue at the regionals.

CaptCoolHand
01-27-2018, 05:04 AM
Umm theyíre growing mostly RJ flying.

Canít be! The guy in recurrent says that itís unsustainable. Their model is failed and theyíll be unable to feed those Wife bodies.

Tom a Hawk
01-27-2018, 06:34 AM
Canít be! The guy in recurrent says that itís unsustainable. Their model is failed and theyíll be unable to feed those Wife bodies.

I have a hard time feeding my Wife body, too

PasserOGas
01-27-2018, 06:46 AM
Canít be! The guy in recurrent says that itís unsustainable. Their model is failed and theyíll be unable to feed those Wife bodies.

I will feed their wife bodies all day long...

Bluedriver
01-27-2018, 07:03 AM
Umm theyíre growing mostly RJ flying.

I don't believe that's true over the next 3 years.

But yes, recently that's been true.

CaptCoolHand
01-27-2018, 07:21 AM
😆😆😆
[email protected] auto correct.

CaptCoolHand
01-27-2018, 07:21 AM
I will feed their wife bodies all day long...

Not all Wife bodies are created equal!

🤣😆😂

TransWorld
01-27-2018, 11:53 AM
I have a hard time feeding my Wife body, too

I can tell you from having done a walk around your Wife body, including close inspection inside the engines and checking the tail, your Wife body is properly cared for and is properly fueled. She’s a good ride, from take off throughout the flight to landing. Have to say she lands a little hard. A bit of a shudder and a slight pull to the left. Nothing that cannot be deferred. Happy to take her out for a spin anytime she appears on my schedule.

Please clean up any coffee on the table that you blew out through your nose.

Bluedriver
01-27-2018, 03:36 PM
Funny indeed sir. Very well done!

Bluedriver
01-27-2018, 03:43 PM
http://fortune.com/2018/01/26/united-airlines-stock-capacity/

And we've been stagnating, deferring aircraft and slowing our growth rate at a time the airline has had a MASSIVE pilot cost advantage! We can't even grow fast with the 2nd lowest pilot cost in the industry.

At least we have no retirements.

ShyGuy
01-28-2018, 09:50 PM
Keep the faith
Alaska + jetBlue
:D

Bozo the pilot
01-29-2018, 05:35 PM
Keep the faith
Alaska + jetBlue
:D

Hope not.
I want UALs contract.

GuppyPuppy
01-30-2018, 04:20 AM
Hope not.
I want UALs contract.

...and a staple job because we are inferior to them!

Gup

Bozo the pilot
01-30-2018, 04:56 AM
...and a staple job because we are inferior to them!

Gup

Iíd rather a staple job there than waiting for this management to get its act together.

cmesoar
01-30-2018, 05:27 AM
Iíd rather a staple job there than waiting for this management to get its act together.

Someone hired yesterday at UAL being senior to me? I am not 25 years old and I am not on board with that. Staples happen in this industry and historically they are ugly. I guess we can agree to disagree.

Now, a fair integration with their CBA in place, I would be ok with that.

Bozo the pilot
01-30-2018, 06:51 AM
Someone hired yesterday at UAL being senior to me? I am not 25 years old and I am not on board with that. Staples happen in this industry and historically they are ugly. I guess we can agree to disagree.

Now, a fair integration with their CBA in place, I would be ok with that.

Look up the word hyperbole🤓

svergin
01-31-2018, 11:57 AM
Umm theyíre growing mostly RJ flying.

United has over 50 jets (777s, 787s, and 737 MAX) being delivered in 2018 and 2019. We are certainly not growing "mostly RJs". The company is also capped at 76 seaters.

And sorry guys, we aren't buying JB, even though I think it would be great at the right price.

atrdriver
01-31-2018, 05:04 PM
United has over 50 jets (777s, 787s, and 737 MAX) being delivered in 2018 and 2019. We are certainly not growing "mostly RJs". The company is also capped at 76 seaters.

And sorry guys, we aren't buying JB, even though I think it would be great at the right price.

Strongest balance sheet in the industry behind SWA.

Not happening.

Bozo the pilot
01-31-2018, 05:09 PM
United has over 50 jets (777s, 787s, and 737 MAX) being delivered in 2018 and 2019. We are certainly not growing "mostly RJs". The company is also capped at 76 seaters.

And sorry guys, we aren't buying JB, even though I think it would be great at the right price.

Sorry man- None of us here at B6 even think its possible or affordable.

aldonite7667
01-31-2018, 05:48 PM
United has over 50 jets (777s, 787s, and 737 MAX) being delivered in 2018 and 2019. We are certainly not growing "mostly RJs". The company is also capped at 76 seaters.

And sorry guys, we aren't buying JB, even though I think it would be great at the right price.

United has 7 billion dollars laying around? Even if that did happen, It would be a merger and not a purchase. Not sure if you know the difference.

svergin
01-31-2018, 08:11 PM
United has 7 billion dollars laying around? Even if that did happen, It would be a merger and not a purchase. Not sure if you know the difference.

United could issue stock in a "purchase". Companies acquire (purchase) other companies all the time either cash, stock, or a combination of both. You do know United has re-purchased $5B if its own stock (and counting) that can be used to issue to shareholders of a company being purchased.

CaptCoolHand
02-01-2018, 03:38 AM
United has over 50 jets (777s, 787s, and 737 MAX) being delivered in 2018 and 2019. We are certainly not growing "mostly RJs". The company is also capped at 76 seaters.

And sorry guys, we aren't buying JB, even though I think it would be great at the right price.
Donít be sorry. Few here wanna be a piece of United.

PasserOGas
02-01-2018, 06:42 AM
Donít be sorry. Few here wanna be a piece of United.

Untrue.

Filler

Bluedriver
02-01-2018, 06:56 AM
Some do, some don't. What we REALLY want is for our management team to find that rudder! Invest in the AIRLINE. Learn how to RUN an airline. And invest in it's PILOTS.

pilotpayne
02-01-2018, 08:31 AM
Some do, some don't. What we REALLY want is for our management team to find that rudder! Invest in the AIRLINE. Learn how to RUN an airline. And invest in it's PILOTS.

Thatís a bingo.

CaptCoolHand
02-01-2018, 03:38 PM
Untrue.

Filler
Disagree

Filler

But we can do that all day

PasserOGas
02-01-2018, 04:28 PM
Disagree

Filler

But we can do that all day

I would say few would not want UAL to buy us. Specifically the senior bubbas since they are the only ones with any kind of future at this dead end.

CaptCoolHand
02-01-2018, 04:41 PM
I would say few would not want UAL to buy us. Specifically the senior bubbas since they are the only ones with any kind of future at this dead end.

Iíve been around 60% in seat in bos for two years. And Iím going to be one off the bottom here shortly. Iíd say most of the guys i fly with wouldnít want a UAL merger. Just my my opinion.

Letís call it 50/50

CaptCoolHand
02-01-2018, 04:52 PM
To that end... Iím gonna blame the beer because Iíve tried to avoid this thread.

Jb is not stagnated. We are still taking delivery of an average of 14 frames a year for the next 6-7 years. We have 95 orders of airbus coming by 2024. They may differ some. They may cancel them. They may end up getting more that that.

Yes Iím well versed in the retirement numbers elsewhere and that itís not growth until itís at the gate. But currently. Now. We are growing at an average pace of 200-300/year. Not to mention the day the contract is ratified weíll need another 10% added at a minimum for work rules and vacation.

Again just one mans opinion

Speedbird2263
02-01-2018, 05:42 PM
To that end... Iím gonna blame the beer because Iíve tried to avoid this thread.

Jb is not stagnated. We are still taking delivery of an average of 14 frames a year for the next 6-7 years. We have 95 orders of airbus coming by 2024. They may differ some. They may cancel them. They may end up getting more that that.

Yes Iím well versed in the retirement numbers elsewhere and that itís not growth until itís at the gate. But currently. Now. We are growing at an average pace of 200-300/year. Not to mention the day the contract is ratified weíll need another 10% added at a minimum for work rules and vacation.

Again just one mans opinion

Of late Iíve had to keep my optimism in check but in general I concur with this.

ALT SEL ooops
02-01-2018, 06:42 PM
To that end... Iím gonna blame the beer because Iíve tried to avoid this thread.

Jb is not stagnated. We are still taking delivery of an average of 14 frames a year for the next 6-7 years. We have 95 orders of airbus coming by 2024. They may differ some. They may cancel them. They may end up getting more that that.

Yes Iím well versed in the retirement numbers elsewhere and that itís not growth until itís at the gate. But currently. Now. We are growing at an average pace of 200-300/year. Not to mention the day the contract is ratified weíll need another 10% added at a minimum for work rules and vacation.

Again just one mans opinion


A very senior captain, will not mention names, developed a great spread sheet on the numbers. Hired today at Delta, you would be 50 percent up the total list. This was done just off retirement numbers alone! No additional aircraft.

At Jetblue, with our orders and retirement numbers you cant even come close to comparing the difference. I have no idea why anyone in their right mind would come here unless they have a bunch of failures or a DUI. Im sure some juicer on here will say our culture(barf).

Sir as to your numbers, we are only growing at an average of 150 pilots per year. The rest of it is for attrition. I wonder why...

pilotpayne
02-01-2018, 06:53 PM
To that end... Iím gonna blame the beer because Iíve tried to avoid this thread.

Jb is not stagnated. We are still taking delivery of an average of 14 frames a year for the next 6-7 years. We have 95 orders of airbus coming by 2024. They may differ some. They may cancel them. They may end up getting more that that.

Yes Iím well versed in the retirement numbers elsewhere and that itís not growth until itís at the gate. But currently. Now. We are growing at an average pace of 200-300/year. Not to mention the day the contract is ratified weíll need another 10% added at a minimum for work rules and vacation.

Again just one mans opinion


So this is new.
I have never seen guys drink and post positive stuff....lol

I do agree whenever that contract hits they will really need to hire. I think that is one of the biggest issues. If it was just pay this thing would probably maybe be done. But the extra pilots they will need because of the way we run things now should be very large and very expensive for them.

RiddleEagle18
02-01-2018, 08:52 PM
They already have all of 2018 on the current vacation system. That gives them plenty of time to staff for the new contract by 2019.

Management needs to come to the table with real proposals now!

Side note, I flew with a school house guy last week and he said they are ramping up training in the spring to levels he hasnít seen in years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cloud5urfer
02-01-2018, 09:02 PM
They already have all of 2018 on the current vacation system. That gives them plenty of time to staff for the new contract by 2019.

Management needs to come to the table with real proposals now!

Side note, I flew with a school house guy last week and he said they are ramping up training in the spring to levels he hasnít seen in years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's odd because we're only hiring another 250 this year.

Xtreme87
02-01-2018, 10:06 PM
That's odd because we're only hiring another 250 this year.

Didnít they already hire like 50 and itís only February?

Cloud5urfer
02-01-2018, 10:11 PM
Didnít they already hire like 50 and itís only February?

I wouldn't expect much hiring over the summer months. Training always tapers off.

CaptCoolHand
02-02-2018, 03:54 AM
Iím not arguing against the numbers. Everyone knows why youíd go to DAL. if they had called me 5-10 yrs ago Iíd have been gone like a fart in the wind. I made my own spreadsheets and in 2012-13 being hired by DAL would have made me an extra 2-4million over 30years.

The point is only that we are not stagnated. We just will not move as fast as others. Youíre going to move up 3-5% a year. We need roughly 14 guys per plane. And that comes out to about the numbers above. We lost a very small number of guys last year. I truly wish guys had been able to run to AA DAL UAL FEDEX ect. But like me itís not as easy as one thinks to just ďgoĒ.
Never had a DUI either. One training failure in 20yrs good aviation degree with decent gpa... sometimes the call never comes.

So having been here 10years finally getting to the left seat in a drivable base Iím not leaving. Iím here for the fight.
#ContractAboveAll
#supportjetbluepilots
#stoodwith700strong


A very senior captain, will not mention names, developed a great spread sheet on the numbers. Hired today at Delta, you would be 50 percent up the total list. This was done just off retirement numbers alone! No additional aircraft.

At Jetblue, with our orders and retirement numbers you cant even come close to comparing the difference. I have no idea why anyone in their right mind would come here unless they have a bunch of failures or a DUI. Im sure some juicer on here will say our culture(barf).

Sir as to your numbers, we are only growing at an average of 150 pilots per year. The rest of it is for attrition. I wonder why...

PasserOGas
02-03-2018, 05:38 PM
Iím not arguing against the numbers. Everyone knows why youíd go to DAL. if they had called me 5-10 yrs ago Iíd have been gone like a fart in the wind. I made my own spreadsheets and in 2012-13 being hired by DAL would have made me an extra 2-4million over 30years.


The point is only that we are not stagnated. We just will not move as fast as others. Youíre going to move up 3-5% a year. We need roughly 14 guys per plane. And that comes out to about the numbers above. We lost a very small number of guys last year. I truly wish guys had been able to run to AA DAL UAL FEDEX ect. But like me itís not as easy as one thinks to just ďgoĒ.
Never had a DUI either. One training failure in 20yrs good aviation degree with decent gpa... sometimes the call never comes.

So having been here 10years finally getting to the left seat in a drivable base Iím not leaving. Iím here for the fight.
#ContractAboveAll
#supportjetbluepilots
#stoodwith700strong


Um, no. You are confusing ASM growth with seniority driving growth. We are growing ASM at around 5% because we are adding seats, and buying 321's. Our hiring tells the true story. 150 pilots/year for growth equates to around a 3% rate. Your relative seniority will average around HALF that, so around 1.5%. At that rate of growth you will be 50% up the list in about 33 years. Obviously people will retire during that time, but make no mistake we are stagnant and UAL has announced plans to grow FASTER than us.

hyperboy
02-03-2018, 06:17 PM
Um, no. You are confusing ASM growth with seniority driving growth. We are growing ASM at around 5% because we are adding seats, and buying 321's. Our hiring tells the true story. 150 pilots/year for growth equates to around a 3% rate. Your relative seniority will average around HALF that, so around 1.5%. At that rate of growth you will be 50% up the list in about 33 years. Obviously people will retire during that time, but make no mistake we are stagnant and UAL has announced plans to grow FASTER than us.


250 a year is what we are hiring......

Bluedriver
02-03-2018, 06:40 PM
250 a year is what we are hiring......

Minus attrition Hypergirl.

Bluedriver
02-03-2018, 06:43 PM
250 a year is what we are hiring......

And... I've been here almost 7 years. In that time, the difference between my seniority number in new hire class and 3500 is 186 pilots net per year.

Bluedriver
02-03-2018, 06:44 PM
250 a year is what we are hiring......

And, our growth rate is slowing. So, I have no reason to believe someone hired today will even do that well.

Bluedriver
02-03-2018, 06:45 PM
250 a year is what we are hiring......

And, with our slowing growth rate, we are, in fact, a slow-growing airline with nearly no pilot retirements and the 2nd worse mainline pay in the industry.

#keepsgettingbetter

Bluedriver
02-03-2018, 06:46 PM
250 a year is what we are hiring......

And, no, I'm not going to call you.

PasserOGas
02-04-2018, 03:46 AM
250 a year is what we are hiring......

After about year 3 all you care about is growth hiring since all our attrition is at the bottom of the list. We are hiring around 150/yr for GROWTH.

Our list only grows by 150/yr.

This year 3500 pilots work here, next year 3650 pilots and so on. This rate is around 3%. Your relative seniority grows much slower than this.

I hope this is slowed down and basic enough for you. This place is a dead end.

Riverside
02-04-2018, 04:44 AM
Minus attrition Hypergirl.

And... I've been here almost 7 years. In that time, the difference between my seniority number in new hire class and 3500 is 186 pilots net per year.

And, our growth rate is slowing. So, I have no reason to believe someone hired today will even do that well.

And, with our slowing growth rate, we are, in fact, a slow-growing airline with nearly no pilot retirements and the 2nd worse mainline pay in the industry.

#keepsgettingbetter

And, no, I'm not going to call you.

You know you can quote his texts all into one right? Instead of quoting him five times.

Bluedriver
02-04-2018, 04:56 AM
You know you can quote his texts all into one right? Instead of quoting him five times.

It's more fun for ME:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/110464-will-jetblue-fly-europe.html

rvr1800
02-04-2018, 06:24 AM
It's more fun for ME:

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/jetblue/110464-will-jetblue-fly-europe.html

You seem to be a lot about ďyouĒ. Iím curious were you at the picket supporting all of ďusĒ?

pilotpayne
02-04-2018, 06:50 AM
You know you can quote his texts all into one right? Instead of quoting him five times.

Itís for dramatic effect :)

atrdriver
02-04-2018, 07:44 AM
250 a year is what we are hiring......

Many of which are just to cover attrition at the bottom. People are dropping like flies because it #keepsgettingbetter (everywhere other than JB).

CaptCoolHand
02-04-2018, 02:03 PM
Iím not confusing anything.
Hulls are not ASMs.
Right now.
We have firm orders for 95 more Airbus. Average 14 planes a year.

Itís not rocket surgery. Stagnant means not moving. Still.
We have movement. Period. Minimal retirements. But still taking delivery of planes. Again there is no argument that you will move up faster st DAL UAL or wherever.

The point is that we are not stagnant.
So ummm yes.

Um, no. You are confusing ASM growth with seniority driving growth. We are growing ASM at around 5% because we are adding seats, and buying 321's. Our hiring tells the true story. 150 pilots/year for growth equates to around a 3% rate. Your relative seniority will average around HALF that, so around 1.5%. At that rate of growth you will be 50% up the list in about 33 years. Obviously people will retire during that time, but make no mistake we are stagnant and UAL has announced plans to grow FASTER than us.

PasserOGas
02-04-2018, 03:22 PM
Iím not confusing anything.
Hulls are not ASMs.
Right now.
We have firm orders for 95 more Airbus. Average 14 planes a year.

Itís not rocket surgery. Stagnant means not moving. Still.
We have movement. Period. Minimal retirements. But still taking delivery of planes. Again there is no argument that you will move up faster st DAL UAL or wherever.

The point is that we are not stagnant.
So ummm yes.

When my movement up the list takes 23 years to reach 50% based on growth, that is stagnant.

hyperboy
02-04-2018, 07:18 PM
Many of which are just to cover attrition at the bottom. People are dropping like flies because it #keepsgettingbetter (everywhere other than JB).


Ohhhh ATR Driver......You know thats not true. You might wish it to be true but it's not......Its higher than it should be for sure. Just lies. Let's post facts.

Bozo the pilot
02-04-2018, 07:31 PM
And, our growth rate is slowing. So, I have no reason to believe someone hired today will even do that well.

I agree- We have hired our last Captain for quite some time unless a contract mixes the bowl a bit.

Bozo the pilot
02-04-2018, 07:36 PM
Ohhhh ATR Driver......You know thats not true. You might wish it to be true but it's not......Its higher than it should be for sure. Just lies. Let's post facts.

So how many, (%) of new hires, stay at least 2 years? If there is even accurate and available data on that.
If this summer doesnt see a meaningful effort by "management", do you see attrition climb? How patient are you willing to remain in the face of company obstinance?
Sorry I missed you in fla. I finished Friday.:D

hyperboy
02-04-2018, 07:41 PM
So how many, (%) of new hires, stay at least 2 years? If there is even accurate and available data on that.
If this summer doesnt see a meaningful effort by "management", do you see attrition climb? How patient are you willing to remain in the face of company obstinance?
Sorry I missed you in fla. I finished Friday.:D

It was around 70 this year all attrition. I don't know how much was what.......

Bozo the pilot
02-04-2018, 07:44 PM
It was around 70 this year all attrition. I don't know how much was what.......

That number will grow if Blew doesnt cowboy up.

PasserOGas
02-05-2018, 03:44 AM
It was around 70 this year all attrition. I don't know how much was what.......

Around 30%. If everyone TRYING to leave were counted that number would be almost 100% on the FO side. Think about it, how many FO's do you know who DON'T have their apps out? Everyone I know does.

Chicken Taco
02-05-2018, 05:37 AM
So how many, (%) of new hires, stay at least 2 years? If there is even accurate and available data on that.
If this summer doesnt see a meaningful effort by "management", do you see attrition climb? How patient are you willing to remain in the face of company obstinance?
Sorry I missed you in fla. I finished Friday.:D

ALPA has the hard numbers as does the company. Anecdotally my class just passed 2 years. 32 were hired that month, 31 finished training. 30 of the 31 are still here, so 97% In the 2 years that I have been on the list I have moved up 81 numbers. We hired 400 past my initial position, so almost 500 below me.

hyperboy
02-05-2018, 05:38 AM
Around 30%. If everyone TRYING to leave were counted that number would be almost 100% on the FO side. Think about it, how many FO's do you know who DON'T have their apps out? Everyone I know does.

That number is a made up number that I bet it isn't even close..100%. Sounds good to say!

Saying that for years......I am not saying it won't increase...but it hasn't. I know many FO's including myself that don't have there apps out. I could be a Captain whenever I want. I choose not too for QOL.

There are many FO's senior to me that are doing that as well. So what does it have to do if your an FO or a CA? Please no career advice needed. You have my number we can chat.

coopervane
02-05-2018, 08:42 AM
Ohhhh ATR Driver......You know thats not true. You might wish it to be true but it's not......Its higher than it should be for sure. Just lies. Let's post facts.

I do agree that saying people are dropping like flies feels good to say, but I just donít think itís happening yet.

I think this company run by pure TPS reports alone. They will wait until the TPS reports tell them that pilots are ďdropping like fliesĒ. They will wait until the TPS reports tell them we are the most despised airline by businessmen who wouldnt book a flight on us no matter how cheap we are. They will wait until the TPS reports tell them our profit margins are at a record low, and our costs are going up. Etc....Etc....

Then....when every Dollar that can be squeezed from the jetblew turnip, they will sell us and move on to the next ATM machine.


There is no long term plan.

PasserOGas
02-05-2018, 08:56 AM
I do agree that saying people are dropping like flies feels good to say, but I just donít think itís happening yet.

I think this company run by pure TPS reports alone. They will wait until the TPS reports tell them that pilots are ďdropping like fliesĒ. They will wait until the TPS reports tell them we are the most despised airline by businessmen who wouldnt book a flight on us no matter how cheap we are. They will wait until the TPS reports tell them our profit margins are at a record low, and our costs are going up. Etc....Etc....

Then....when every Dollar that can be squeezed from the jetblew turnip, they will sell us and move on to the next ATM machine.


There is no long term plan.

I think looking at how many are actually called and then leave is masking how many want to leave. If the big 3 started calling all the FOs with apps out how bad would attrition be? Saying we "only" lost 80 isn't telling the whole story is my point. We would be down A LOT more if everyone who wanted to leave could.

hyperboy
02-05-2018, 09:53 AM
I think looking at how many are actually called and then leave is masking how many want to leave. If the big 3 started calling all the FOs with apps out how bad would attrition be? Saying we "only" lost 80 isn't telling the whole story is my point. We would be down A LOT more if everyone who wanted to leave could.

Here is the problem. Everything your saying people have been saying for years....It has not materialized for years either. I AM NOT SAYING IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Every year there is another reason why the the attrition didn't happen that past year and another (factual reason wink wink) that this is gonna be the year. It's like a ferris wheel going around and around with the girl you like and the Star QB sitting next to her hoping each time around she will be sitting alone, so you can save her from her grave mistake in judgement.

What it comes to is the facts that high attrition has not occurred yet... Everyone (Roadrunner and possibly the CA) seems to be telling the other (Wile E Coyote and possibly the FO) in the cockpit they are gonna jump off the edge of the cliff together. But no one jumps.

At this point you would take a peak at the contract? If not it would be reckless to tell someone to leave when your not....

PasserOGas
02-05-2018, 10:09 AM
Here is the problem. Everything your saying people have been saying for years....It has not materialized for years either. I AM NOT SAYING IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Every year there is another reason why the the attrition didn't happen that past year and another (factual reason wink wink) that this is gonna be the year. It's like a ferris wheel going around and around with the girl you like and the Star QB sitting next to her hoping each time around she will be sitting alone, so you can save her from her grave mistake in judgement.

What it comes to is the facts that high attrition has not occurred yet... Everyone (Roadrunner and possibly the CA) seems to be telling the other (Wile E Coyote and possibly the FO) in the cockpit they are gonna jump off the edge of the cliff together. But no one jumps.

At this point you would take a peak at the contract? If not it would be reckless to tell someone to leave when your not....

I have my apps out and updating them every month. I have been for about 2 years when I figured out the company was going to drag this out. I have been to many job fairs, guess what? Crickets. I have a stellar resume and many references at all of the big 3.

If I am not getting the call, and pretty much every FO I talk to is in the same boat it tells me actual attrition is lower than it should be.

I would leave tomorrow even if we got Delta's contract. Lack of movement alone here is worth millions in lost lifetime income.

queue
02-05-2018, 10:16 AM
Let the gossip speculation begin...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tedreed/2018/02/05/will-alaska-and-jetblue-merge-some-day-2018-provides-some-early-indicators/3/

hyperboy
02-05-2018, 11:13 AM
I have my apps out and updating them every month. I have been for about 2 years when I figured out the company was going to drag this out. I have been to many job fairs, guess what? Crickets. I have a stellar resume and many references at all of the big 3.

If I am not getting the call, and pretty much every FO I talk to is in the same boat it tells me actual attrition is lower than it should be.

I would leave tomorrow even if we got Delta's contract. Lack of movement alone here is worth millions in lost lifetime income.

I just can't explain this part.....If you set the gold standard with your stellar resume then no one else has a chance?! :D

what do you think the problem on the 100 percent that want to leave not being able to get an interview at OAL's?

Final Clear
02-05-2018, 11:18 AM
I just can't explain this part.....If you set the gold standard with your stellar resume then no one else has a chance?! :D

what do you think the problem on the 100 percent that want to leave not being able to get an interview at OAL's?

...perhaps a UPS like "back door" agreement with certain players in the industry to not hire from jetblue for a certain period of time. Purely speculation.

Hey jetblue...FUPM,
FC

pilotpayne
02-05-2018, 11:38 AM
I think looking at how many are actually called and then leave is masking how many want to leave. If the big 3 started calling all the FOs with apps out how bad would attrition be? Saying we "only" lost 80 isn't telling the whole story is my point. We would be down A LOT more if everyone who wanted to leave could.


But we arenít so while the theory is fun itís not happening YET.
I have literally been hearing this for 6 years along with somone buying us. I think the biggest attrition number was around a year after I got hired when everyone was returning to their legacy.

Again you have a point but only numbers matter not guys saying they will leave. We shouldnít have guys leaving but I know for a fact guys are even leaving SWA to go to other airlines. Itís just the hiring cycle with retirements and big planes itís hard to compete exacerbated by our lack of a contract. One day the majors will stop hiring and we start our retirements and it will be ( if we get a good contract and are still around) why sit at the bottom of the list here when they have retirements. Round and round the cycle goes. This wonít be for 10 or so years but it will happen.

That is not a defense or endorsement of JetBlue btw.

pilotpayne
02-05-2018, 11:51 AM
I have my apps out and updating them every month. I have been for about 2 years when I figured out the company was going to drag this out. I have been to many job fairs, guess what? Crickets. I have a stellar resume and many references at all of the big 3.

If I am not getting the call, and pretty much every FO I talk to is in the same boat it tells me actual attrition is lower than it should be.

I would leave tomorrow even if we got Delta's contract. Lack of movement alone here is worth millions in lost lifetime income.

Ok not trying to start a war.

So if we got Deltas contract you are out and lack of movement is also an issue.

Why in the world did you apply here?
You had to know this going into it. Look if a Delta contract isnít going to make you happy (it would cause a good chunk of movement) than you better keep those apps updated.

Bluedriver
02-05-2018, 11:58 AM
It was around 70 this year all attrition. I don't know how much was what.......

So hire 250, 70 quit, so net of 180 added to the list.

Strange, where have a seen that 180 number before. Roll eyes, triple face palm now...

Bluedriver
02-05-2018, 12:01 PM
Iím not confusing anything.
Hulls are not ASMs.
Right now.
We have firm orders for 95 more Airbus. Average 14 planes a year.

Itís not rocket surgery. Stagnant means not moving. Still.
We have movement. Period. Minimal retirements. But still taking delivery of planes. Again there is no argument that you will move up faster st DAL UAL or wherever.

The point is that we are not stagnant.
So ummm yes.

Not arguing the semantics of stagnant, because it is SUBJECTIVE. But as our fleet count gets larger over the years, growing at a constant of 14 hulls means as a percentage, our growth slows every year.

That's before our regular brush with deferrals every few years...

hyperboy
02-05-2018, 12:39 PM
So hire 250, 70 quit, so net of 180 added to the list.

Strange, where have a seen that 180 number before. Roll eyes, triple face palm now...

That 70 is not pilots leaving thats everything; retirements, terminations, lost medicals...everything.FYI

Bozo the pilot
02-05-2018, 12:40 PM
That 70 is not pilots leaving thats everything; retirements, terminations, lost medicals...everything.FYI

No wonder mngmnt is in no hurry. With no one leaving and all the little helpers, why give us anything?

Bluedriver
02-05-2018, 12:42 PM
That 70 is not pilots leaving thats everything; retirements, terminations, lost medicals...everything.FYI

Ok. We are still only hiring 250, according to you. So what is 250-70= again?

slimothy
02-05-2018, 02:16 PM
Ok not trying to start a war.

So if we got Deltas contract you are out and lack of movement is also an issue.

Why in the world did you apply here?
You had to know this going into it. Look if a Delta contract isnít going to make you happy (it would cause a good chunk of movement) than you better keep those apps updated.

Because it was a step up from a sh!tty regional. It was a bigger plane. I bought into ďcultureĒ BS, and thought it would be an ok place to hang out and improve the resume.

I donít like unsubstantiated conspiracy theories, but as many guys as I know who want to leave and havenít gotten a call, perhaps there is something the ďback door dealĒ theory. If DAL ever gets sick of that annoying Blue gnat that keeps buzzing around ATL and MSP, I fully believe they could hire our operation to a halt.

CaptCoolHand
02-05-2018, 02:30 PM
Ok. We are still only hiring 250, according to you. So what is 250-70= again?

5.14% Slightly over the 3-5% I stated earlier. Problem is it changes with the wind. We defer planes today, then pick up extras down the line. If you recall a few year back when we first deferred 2018 was only supposed to have about 4 deliveries, maybe 6 I can't remember now. were getting 10 now. A few years ago we found 4 extras we weren't supposed to get. some years were 20 others were 5, why not smooth it out.

SEC-Show (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/SEC/sec-show.aspx?Type=html&FilingId=12494760&CIK=0001158463&Index=10000)

2018 delivery schedule is on page three of the investor update. it's about 1/3 the way down the file.

I know what stagnation is... it was 2008-2009, I spent that time in BOS as 2002/2007 pilots. It was super cool in 2010 I think we hired like 30.

Those times were great. I was especially excited to know how lucky I was to be here, and how I should have been furloughed so some senior guy could continue making his 140hrs/month. So yea, it's subjective.

No wonder mngmnt is in no hurry. With no one leaving and all the little helpers, why give us anything?

This is the problem with the "exodus" argument right now. It just isn't.
will it? I just don't know.

pilotpayne
02-05-2018, 03:12 PM
5.14% Slightly over the 3-5% I stated earlier. Problem is it changes with the wind. We defer planes today, then pick up extras down the line. If you recall a few year back when we first deferred 2018 was only supposed to have about 4 deliveries, maybe 6 I can't remember now. were getting 10 now. A few years ago we found 4 extras we weren't supposed to get. some years were 20 others were 5, why not smooth it out.

SEC-Show (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/SEC/sec-show.aspx?Type=html&FilingId=12494760&CIK=0001158463&Index=10000)

2018 delivery schedule is on page three of the investor update. it's about 1/3 the way down the file.

I know what stagnation is... it was 2008-2009, I spent that time in BOS as 2002/2007 pilots. It was super cool in 2010 I think we hired like 30.

Those times were great. I was especially excited to know how lucky I was to be here, and how I should have been furloughed so some senior guy could continue making his 140hrs/month. So yea, it's subjective.



This is the problem with the "exodus" argument right now. It just isn't.
will it? I just don't know.



You got all of that right (but you knew that):D

PasserOGas
02-05-2018, 07:05 PM
I just can't explain this part.....If you set the gold standard with your stellar resume then no one else has a chance?! :D

what do you think the problem on the 100 percent that want to leave not being able to get an interview at OAL's?

I didn't say I was flew the space shuttle, but guys less qualified than me have been getting the call. By stellar I mean I check all the boxes and have no red flags. My point wasnt to toot my own horn, just to say, again, that our low attrition is likely due to a lack of job offers and not to this dumpster fire #gettingbetter.

PasserOGas
02-05-2018, 07:10 PM
Ok not trying to start a war.

So if we got Deltas contract you are out and lack of movement is also an issue.

Why in the world did you apply here?
You had to know this going into it. Look if a Delta contract isnít going to make you happy (it would cause a good chunk of movement) than you better keep those apps updated.

Never turn down a better job.

HighFlight
02-06-2018, 07:42 AM
True. B6 seemed to be that better job 4 years ago. Is it still, today?

Never turn down a better job.

pilotpayne
02-06-2018, 02:23 PM
Never turn down a better job.

Fair.


But you most have know most of the stuff you are mad about coming in. Thatís like going on a carnival cruise and complaining that the food isnít 5 star quality. :D

Bozo the pilot
02-06-2018, 02:52 PM
Fair.


But you most have know most of the stuff you are mad about coming in. Thatís like going on a carnival cruise and complaining that the food isnít 5 star quality. :D

No- its like the food deteriorating as the week goes by. ;)

Bluedriver
02-06-2018, 03:21 PM
Fair.


But you most have know most of the stuff you are mad about coming in. Thatís like going on a carnival cruise and complaining that the food isnít 5 star quality. :D

Come on Joe, you must agree that our pay has fallen further behind our peers in recent years and our growth rate is lower than it was before?!?

Barger used to tell Wall Street high single digit ASM growth. Then it was mid-to-high single digit. What is it for 2018, 3.5-5.5?

Slowing.

Pay wise, we used to get sorta spreadsheet peer average PLUS premium pay above 78 hours.

Now, 30+% behind our peers with no premium pay.

I'm sorry but this place has ABSOLUTELY gotten worse in my almost 7 years here.

Period.

CaptCoolHand
02-06-2018, 04:16 PM
No- its like the food deteriorating as the week goes by. ;)


Itís this. Served with a menu of well... no one else has that anyways... until they do.

But wait! That doesnít fit the failed model narrative.

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 05:46 AM
5.14% Slightly over the 3-5% I stated earlier. Problem is it changes with the wind. We defer planes today, then pick up extras down the line. If you recall a few year back when we first deferred 2018 was only supposed to have about 4 deliveries, maybe 6 I can't remember now. were getting 10 now. A few years ago we found 4 extras we weren't supposed to get. some years were 20 others were 5, why not smooth it out.

SEC-Show (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/SEC/sec-show.aspx?Type=html&FilingId=12494760&CIK=0001158463&Index=10000)

2018 delivery schedule is on page three of the investor update. it's about 1/3 the way down the file.

I know what stagnation is... it was 2008-2009, I spent that time in BOS as 2002/2007 pilots. It was super cool in 2010 I think we hired like 30.

Those times were great. I was especially excited to know how lucky I was to be here, and how I should have been furloughed so some senior guy could continue making his 140hrs/month. So yea, it's subjective.



This is the problem with the "exodus" argument right now. It just isn't.
will it? I just don't know.

So, our big Airbus order around the 2011 time frame originally had us ramping up to 15 deliveries per year, I believe they were to reach 15 deliveries somewhere between 2014-2016 and stay there through 2020-2021. So the schedule was for 15 deliveries in 2018. That was before one of our many deferrals that took that number down, only to go back up to 10, which is still only 2/3 of what it was scheduled to be. This at a time when our airline and the entire industry has never been more profitable!

Stagnation is subjective. Yes, literally it means what you said. Some of us consider us to be stagnant when our seniority movement at this "GROWTH" airline falls well behind that at those "failed model" old crusty legacies.

We've already established our growth is slowing. Lower ASM forecasts, fewer deliveries and/or same number of deliveries added to an ever larger fleet count base each year, seniority list growing by the same number of pilots even though the list is larger (lower percentage growth), etc ... Our growth is slowing, yet we have no retirements. That, to some of us, is stagnating. You are correct, not LITERALLY.

As an example, if you are 50% up our seniority list, and we add 180 pilots to the bottom of our seniority list as planned, you don't move up 5%, you move up 2.5%. At a "growth" airline. Our 13 or so retirements this year are statistically irrelevant.

Now United is forecasting ASM growth for the next 3 years higher than we are, and because of their "scope choke", it will primarily be mainline growth. In addition, they have hundreds of retirements that come off the top of the list, so if 7% of the list retires, you move up 7% PLUS growth. And they have a great contract!

Delta has similar numbers. They don't forecast quite as much ASM growth, but because they are actively"upgauging" they are growing the mainline seniority list much faster than their ASM forecast suggests. They are hiring for mainline growth and significant retirements. Plus a great contract.

I know you know all this. And I know we agree, these days, on quite a lot. So understand that some of us believe we are stagnating relative to prior seniority PERCENTAGE movement and relative to our "failed model" peers.

In the end, until this contract is settled and the company stops withholding 30% of my compensation, retirement and QOL, I will not lift one tiny finger on a keyboard to "correct the record" about our pay, benefits or career progression.

JB can defend it's own record, we shouldn't be doing their work for them right now. My opinion, of course.

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 05:48 AM
You got all of that right (but you knew that):D

Did he Joe? Or did he forget and did you forget that we were previously scheduled to have 15 deliveries in 2018? Did you forget or did you not want to point that out for some other reason in your zeal to support a moderate post?

Look at our 2013 10k report. We were supposed to get 15 Airbus deliveries per year between 2015(I think) and 2019.

Bozo the pilot
02-07-2018, 05:56 AM
So, our big Airbus order around the 2011 time frame originally had us ramping up to 15 deliveries per year, I believe they were to reach 15 deliveries somewhere between 2014-2016 and stay there through 2020-2021. So the schedule was for 15 deliveries in 2018. That was before one of our many deferrals that took that number down, only to go back up to 10, which is still only 2/3 of what it was scheduled to be. This at a time when our airline and the entire industry has never been more profitable!

Stagnation is subjective. Yes, literally it means what you said. Some of us consider us to be stagnant when our seniority movement at this "GROWTH" airline falls well behind that at those "failed model" old crusty legacies.

We've already established our growth is slowing. Lower ASM forecasts, fewer deliveries and/or same number of deliveries added to an ever larger fleet count base each year, seniority list growing by the same number of pilots even though the list is larger (lower percentage growth), etc ... Our growth is slowing, yet we have no retirements. That, to some of us, is stagnating. You are correct, not LITERALLY.

As an example, if you are 50% up our seniority list, and we add 180 pilots to the bottom of our seniority list as planned, you don't move up 5%, you move up 2.5%. At a "growth" airline. Our 13 or so retirements this year are statistically irrelevant.

Now United is forecasting ASM growth for the next 3 years higher than we are, and because of their "scope choke", it will primarily be mainline growth. In addition, they have hundreds of retirements that come off the top of the list, so if 7% of the list retires, you move up 7% PLUS growth. And they have a great contract!

Delta has similar numbers. They don't forecast quite as much ASM growth, but because they are actively"upgauging" they are growing the mainline seniority list much faster than their ASM forecast suggests. They are hiring for mainline growth and significant retirements. Plus a great contract.

I know you know all this. And I know we agree, these days, on quite a lot. So understand that some of us believe we are stagnating relative to prior seniority PERCENTAGE movement and relative to our "failed model" peers.

In the end, until this contract is settled and the company stops withholding 30% of my compensation, retirement and QOL, I will not lift one tiny finger on a keyboard to "correct the record" about our pay, benefits or career progression.

JB can defend it's own record, we shouldn't be doing their work for them right now. My opinion, of course.

Id love to hear any rebuttal of this. I dont even think the juicers could disagree.

hyperboy
02-07-2018, 06:18 AM
Id love to hear any rebuttal of this. I dont even think the juicers could disagree.

United's growth will be in the regionals? we fly all of our airplanes?:D

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 06:24 AM
United's growth will be in the regionals? we fly all of our airplanes?:D

Wrong, "scope choke".

Bozo the pilot
02-07-2018, 06:45 AM
United's growth will be in the regionals? we fly all of our airplanes?:D

Not a rebuttal but kudos for effort.
I love apples vs oranges.;)

pilotpayne
02-07-2018, 06:47 AM
Come on Joe, you must agree that our pay has fallen further behind our peers in recent years and our growth rate is lower than it was before?!?

Barger used to tell Wall Street high single digit ASM growth. Then it was mid-to-high single digit. What is it for 2018, 3.5-5.5?

Slowing.

Pay wise, we used to get sorta spreadsheet peer average PLUS premium pay above 78 hours.

Now, 30+% behind our peers with no premium pay.

I'm sorry but this place has ABSOLUTELY gotten worse in my almost 7 years here.

Period.


Funny thing was I had a longer post that had to do with you and I and the time we have been here. Yes you are correct. My point to passer was he has been here 2 years if you did some research even just a little none of this should have surprised him. Itís not being rude or defending the company but it is what it is. When a delta contract wonít make you happy, there is not much that will.

PasserOGas
02-07-2018, 06:51 AM
Funny thing was I had a longer post that had to do with you and I and the time we have been here. Yes you are correct. My point to passer was he has been here 2 years if you did some research even just a little none of this should have surprised him. Itís not being rude or defending the company but it is what it is. When a delta contract wonít make you happy, there is not much that will.

Been here longer than 2 years. We were growing, hiring a bunch and had a pay rate close to the big 3 when I started. None of those things are true now.

pilotpayne
02-07-2018, 06:58 AM
Did he Joe? Or did he forget and did you forget that we were previously scheduled to have 15 deliveries in 2018? Did you forget or did you not want to point that out for some other reason in your zeal to support a moderate post?

Look at our 2013 10k report. We were supposed to get 15 Airbus deliveries per year between 2015(I think) and 2019.

Donít you commute from a major base for Delta are they not hiring are you qualified to go to a real airline? I honestly donít know why you are still here. And I actually donít care. Cool hand is a moderate so what. Iím a little tired of your if your not totally with me you are against me crap. Along with your posts of how smart you are and how you have called all of this and how dare people question you. Yeah I may be juicy joe and I still like jetblue and I have been wrong and right but you just come off as a total jerk sometimes. Iím sorry bluedriver I want to like you and I try to respect your posts but man you make it hard to do.

And this is why I took a month off these stupid forums

pilotpayne
02-07-2018, 07:19 AM
Been here longer than 2 years. We were growing, hiring a bunch and had a pay rate close to the big 3 when I started. None of those things are true now.

So thatís like 2013 ish?

CaptCoolHand
02-07-2018, 07:28 AM
You make it so difficult to be on your side...

Got it. We are "literally" still growing and hiring and not stagnant. But you "FEEL" stagnant because we're not retiring guys like the big 3 and not growing ASMs like the big 3 or taking deliveries fast enough. But earlier you argued that ASM's were not necessarily growth... Won't lift a finger to correct the record, but can't show up to support your union either.

You win, you go into the southerner irrational box of no longer credible.
Hope you can find time for the next picket if you're not too busy here on APC telling everyone how you feel.

So, our big Airbus order around the 2011 time frame originally had us ramping up to 15 deliveries per year, I believe they were to reach 15 deliveries somewhere between 2014-2016 and stay there through 2020-2021. So the schedule was for 15 deliveries in 2018. That was before one of our many deferrals that took that number down, only to go back up to 10, which is still only 2/3 of what it was scheduled to be. This at a time when our airline and the entire industry has never been more profitable!

Stagnation is subjective. Yes, literally it means what you said. Some of us consider us to be stagnant when our seniority movement at this "GROWTH" airline falls well behind that at those "failed model" old crusty legacies.

We've already established our growth is slowing. Lower ASM forecasts, fewer deliveries and/or same number of deliveries added to an ever larger fleet count base each year, seniority list growing by the same number of pilots even though the list is larger (lower percentage growth), etc ... Our growth is slowing, yet we have no retirements. That, to some of us, is stagnating. You are correct, not LITERALLY.

As an example, if you are 50% up our seniority list, and we add 180 pilots to the bottom of our seniority list as planned, you don't move up 5%, you move up 2.5%. At a "growth" airline. Our 13 or so retirements this year are statistically irrelevant.

Now United is forecasting ASM growth for the next 3 years higher than we are, and because of their "scope choke", it will primarily be mainline growth. In addition, they have hundreds of retirements that come off the top of the list, so if 7% of the list retires, you move up 7% PLUS growth. And they have a great contract!

Delta has similar numbers. They don't forecast quite as much ASM growth, but because they are actively"upgauging" they are growing the mainline seniority list much faster than their ASM forecast suggests. They are hiring for mainline growth and significant retirements. Plus a great contract.

I know you know all this. And I know we agree, these days, on quite a lot. So understand that some of us believe we are stagnating relative to prior seniority PERCENTAGE movement and relative to our "failed model" peers.

In the end, until this contract is settled and the company stops withholding 30% of my compensation, retirement and QOL, I will not lift one tiny finger on a keyboard to "correct the record" about our pay, benefits or career progression.

JB can defend it's own record, we shouldn't be doing their work for them right now. My opinion, of course.

CaptCoolHand
02-07-2018, 07:32 AM
Been here longer than 2 years. We were growing, hiring a bunch and had a pay rate close to the big 3 when I started. None of those things are true now.

Still growing... Still hiring. still true.

I can't remember ever when we were close to the big 3 in pay rates. Certainly not in total compensation. Now close... close is another subjective term i suppose.

CaptCoolHand
02-07-2018, 07:45 AM
United's growth will be in the regionals? we fly all of our airplanes?:D

You should check your facts too.

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 07:46 AM
Funny thing was I had a longer post that had to do with you and I and the time we have been here. Yes you are correct. My point to passer was he has been here 2 years if you did some research even just a little none of this should have surprised him. Itís not being rude or defending the company but it is what it is. When a delta contract wonít make you happy, there is not much that will.

I would be satisfied with a Delta contract and this place finding a rudder (strong vision for the future).

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 07:47 AM
You should check your facts too.

Don't get too proud of facts there Mr 2018 4-delivery guy.

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 07:48 AM
Still growing... Still hiring. still true.

I can't remember ever when we were close to the big 3 in pay rates. Certainly not in total compensation. Now close... close is another subjective term i suppose.

Growing and hiring at an ever slowing rate (percentage).

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 07:51 AM
You make it so difficult to be on your side...

Got it. We are "literally" still growing and hiring and not stagnant. But you "FEEL" stagnant because we're not retiring guys like the big 3 and not growing ASMs like the big 3 or taking deliveries fast enough. But earlier you argued that ASM's were not necessarily growth... Won't lift a finger to correct the record, but can't show up to support your union either.

You win, you go into the southerner irrational box of no longer credible.
Hope you can find time for the next picket if you're not too busy here on APC telling everyone how you feel.

I didn't argue ASMs aren't growth. I think you are confusing me with someone else or misunderstanding me. I had high confidence I could get out of my trip, it didn't happen. If you think selling JB as not being that bad (in ANY WAY) to potential new hires is supporting our pilots in negotiations, we have nothing more to talk about.

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 07:53 AM
Donít you commute from a major base for Delta are they not hiring are you qualified to go to a real airline? I honestly donít know why you are still here. And I actually donít care. Cool hand is a moderate so what. Iím a little tired of your if your not totally with me you are against me crap. Along with your posts of how smart you are and how you have called all of this and how dare people question you. Yeah I may be juicy joe and I still like jetblue and I have been wrong and right but you just come off as a total jerk sometimes. Iím sorry bluedriver I want to like you and I try to respect your posts but man you make it hard to do.

And this is why I took a month off these stupid forums

I am hirable, check all the boxes (yes I have a 4 year degree and no red flags). I have my reasons for staying so far and trying to make this a worthy career airline.

You have to know I just want a great contract and for this airline to find it's rudder.

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 07:57 AM
Funny thing was I had a longer post that had to do with you and I and the time we have been here. Yes you are correct. My point to passer was he has been here 2 years if you did some research even just a little none of this should have surprised him. Itís not being rude or defending the company but it is what it is. When a delta contract wonít make you happy, there is not much that will.

You agreed with a dude who was countering my post saying he was "all correct". Yet he was using very bad data for 2018 to make his point.

What was I supposed to say?

pilotpayne
02-07-2018, 07:59 AM
I am hirable, check all the boxes (yes I have a 4 year degree and no red flags). I have my reasons for staying so far and trying to make this a worthy career airline.

You have to know I just want a great contract and for this airline to find it's rudder.

I do get that.
Just stop being a dick on here. And understand almost all of us are with you. You canít take yes for a answer. What you fail to grasp is not everyone is going to use the same tattics or feel the same as you do.

This is like the true believer republicans or democrats itís all or nothing. But there is so much in the middle. And while you are correct sometimes you also tilt things just as you accuse others of doing. Which is totally fine just donít be shocked when you get push back.

pilotpayne
02-07-2018, 08:02 AM
You agreed with a dude who was countering my post saying he was "all correct". Yet he was using very bad data for 2018 to make his point.

What was I supposed to say?

You guys are kind of arguing in parallel and you can actually both be right.
Yes growth has slowed but we are still growing.

hyperboy
02-07-2018, 08:06 AM
You should check your facts too.


Talked to by buddy over at United and he said they want to open up CBA talks early and many fear this to be the motivation (regional flying). Just sayin'.

hyperboy
02-07-2018, 08:11 AM
I didn't argue ASMs aren't growth. I think you are confusing me with someone else or misunderstanding me. I had high confidence I could get out of my trip, it didn't happen. If you think selling JB as not being that bad (in ANY WAY) to potential new hires is supporting our pilots in negotiations, we have nothing more to talk about.

Were you planning on heading on into the BOS CP office and asking for a couple of "LUV" days so you could head on down for the picket? I am sure that would have went over as well as a "terd in a punch bowl?!"

BeatNavy
02-07-2018, 08:16 AM
Talked to by buddy over at United and he said they want to open up CBA talks early and many fear this to be the motivation (regional flying). Just sayin'.

Scott Kirby has said publicly he plans on getting scope relaxed in exchange for higher wages in the next contract. Heís a master at regional proliferation (and whipsaws), as well as exploiting pilots for being greedy and being their own worst enemy. UAL ALPA has said they wonít budge on scope. I hope they have enough former regional guys who will hold the line.

Bluedriver
02-07-2018, 08:18 AM
Talked to by buddy over at United and he said they want to open up CBA talks early and many fear this to be the motivation (regional flying). Just sayin'.

Oh, many fear. Give me a break. Pilots have all the leverage. UAL told Wall Street 6% ASM growth and UAL is in a scope choke. Great place for UAL pilots to be.

pilotpayne
02-07-2018, 10:32 AM
Scott Kirby has said publicly he plans on getting scope relaxed in exchange for higher wages in the next contract. Heís a master at regional proliferation (and whipsaws), as well as exploiting pilots for being greedy and being their own worst enemy. UAL ALPA has said they wonít budge on scope. I hope they have enough former regional guys who will hold the line.

They have to. If history teaches us ANYTHING keep control of scope

slimothy
02-07-2018, 10:59 AM
Don't get too proud of facts there Mr 2018 4-delivery guy.

Slow down, homie. He was responding to HB, not you. This is why you lose support of others who are fed up, youíre too quick to jump peopleís sh!t. He was agreeing with you.

rightside02
02-07-2018, 12:34 PM
Was told from a P2P guy from UA That the union went to the company to open early, and they agreed. Versus the theory of Scott Kirby coming to alpa say hey let's Open early so I can try to alter the scope relief. Not saying he won't try. Additionally he tried this at AA and failed. We have pilots that got furlough for over a decade and got stuck for years just like everybody else , tons of regional guys here as well . no way scope gets caved in on.

CaptCoolHand
02-08-2018, 09:00 AM
Don't get too proud of facts there Mr 2018 4-delivery guy.

I'm pretty sure I caviated that with an I don't remember. But lets look to see what I'm talking about. Go back and read the 8Ks and 10Ks from about 2010 moving forward. Look at the delivery schedules.

SEC-Show (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/SEC/sec-show.aspx?Type=html&FilingId=10476452&CIK=0001158463&Index=10000)

You're right. It was 7. I stand corrected.

The point again is that it changes frequently.

Perspective, again, how many aircraft are we getting this year?

SEC-Show (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/SEC/sec-show.aspx?Type=html&FilingId=12493545&CIK=0001158463&Index=10000)

It's 10. Still taking additional aircraft. Not getting rid of planes. Not, stopping deliveries... TAKING(more or less than expected depending on perspective) deliveries. Which means, we are growing. So henceforth, not stagnant.

None of this changes the fact that we are in a labor dispute.

FUPM.

Member of the 700strong.

CaptCoolHand
02-08-2018, 09:10 AM
Talked to by buddy over at United and he said they want to open up CBA talks early and many fear this to be the motivation (regional flying). Just sayin'.

None of which is fact, it's speculation. Just sayin.

hyperboy
02-08-2018, 09:28 AM
None of which is fact, it's speculation. Just sayin.


Not really.....

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/108844-mec-chairman-s-message-early-section-6-a.html

CaptCoolHand
02-08-2018, 09:41 AM
Not really.....

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/united/108844-mec-chairman-s-message-early-section-6-a.html

I was referencing your "fears" comment and the "RJ flying" but you knew that. There's no dispute as to the early negotiations.

Bluedriver
02-08-2018, 11:40 AM
I'm pretty sure I caviated that with an I don't remember. But lets look to see what I'm talking about. Go back and read the 8Ks and 10Ks from about 2010 moving forward. Look at the delivery schedules.

SEC-Show (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/SEC/sec-show.aspx?Type=html&FilingId=10476452&CIK=0001158463&Index=10000)

You're right. It was 7. I stand corrected.

The point again is that it changes frequently.

Perspective, again, how many aircraft are we getting this year?

SEC-Show (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/SEC/sec-show.aspx?Type=html&FilingId=12493545&CIK=0001158463&Index=10000)

It's 10. Still taking additional aircraft. Not getting rid of planes. Not, stopping deliveries... TAKING(more or less than expected depending on perspective) deliveries. Which means, we are growing. So henceforth, not stagnant.

None of this changes the fact that we are in a labor dispute.

FUPM.

Member of the 700strong.

We were scheduled to get 15 Airbus deliveries in 2018.

CaptCoolHand
02-08-2018, 12:04 PM
We were scheduled to get 15 Airbus deliveries in 2018.

And before that we were scheduled for 7, and before that 18...

Are we done with the semantics?

PasserOGas
02-08-2018, 12:17 PM
Ok, so with effectively 2.5% seniority movement jetblue is "approximately stagnant". Got it.

Xtreme87
02-08-2018, 12:45 PM
So weíre getting 10 planes in 2018?

BeatNavy
02-08-2018, 01:00 PM
So weíre getting 10 planes in 2018?

Yes. Until we defer more. Then 13 in 2019, 13 in 2020, 20 in 2021. The fleet review will probably change these. Right now we have 95 airbus on order thru 2024. The unknowns are how many E190s (or its replacement) we will keep and whether we will keep our older A320 leases when they come up.

http://blueir.investproductions.com/~/media/Files/J/Jetblue-IR-V2/investor-update/01252018-updates.pdf

Bluedriver
02-08-2018, 03:17 PM
And before that we were scheduled for 7, and before that 18...

Are we done with the semantics?

Indeed....

full of luv
02-08-2018, 04:41 PM
Yes. Until we defer more. Then 13 in 2019, 13 in 2020, 20 in 2021. The fleet review will probably change these. Right now we have 95 airbus on order thru 2024. The unknowns are how many E190s (or its replacement) we will keep and whether we will keep our older A320 leases when they come up.

http://blueir.investproductions.com/~/media/Files/J/Jetblue-IR-V2/investor-update/01252018-updates.pdf

How long does that "fleet review" go on for? Seems like JB announced that over 6 months ago. Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to review two fleets..... but then again, I'm not an airline exec.

BeatNavy
02-08-2018, 04:46 PM
How long does that "fleet review" go on for? Seems like JB announced that over 6 months ago. Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to review two fleets..... but then again, I'm not an airline exec.

Great question with no answer. It’s like our irops...rolling delays. That said, the ITC ruling had something to do with it, as well as Boeing’s JV with Embraer and airbus’s with bbd. Once the dust settles with the two JVs, I expect they will announce the plans, at least with respect to the 100-130 seat jets.

pilotpayne
02-08-2018, 04:49 PM
How long does that "fleet review" go on for? Seems like JB announced that over 6 months ago. Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to review two fleets..... but then again, I'm not an airline exec.

Airbus buying Bombardier and Boeing talking about buying Embraer might have thrown a wrench in it.

BeatNavy
02-21-2018, 01:36 AM
While JB stagnates, FedEx just had a less than 2 year upgrade on the 757, and 6-7 years on widebodies.

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:41 AM
While JB stagnates, FedEx just had a less than 2 year upgrade on the 757, and 6-7 years on widebodies.

Fake news. JetBlue is the cat's meow.

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:46 AM
While JB stagnates, FedEx just had a less than 2 year upgrade on the 757, and 6-7 years on widebodies.

Yeah, but do they have a contract?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:47 AM
While JB stagnates, FedEx just had a less than 2 year upgrade on the 757, and 6-7 years on widebodies.

Do they even make as much as we do?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:47 AM
Do they have CULTURE?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:48 AM
Do they even fly to the Dominican Republic?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:49 AM
Do they even have IROPS? IROP Pants?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:50 AM
Do they even have 10 hours 3-days?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:50 AM
Do they even fly to the East AND West coast?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:51 AM
Do they even have a map that includes airports in the middle of the country?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:51 AM
Do they even have crappy hotels?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:52 AM
Do they even offer 80% self funded retirement and healthcare insurance?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:53 AM
Do they even make you clean the aircraft if you want to use your employee discount to ship something?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:54 AM
Do they even use ATC?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:55 AM
Are they even a career destination airline like we are?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:55 AM
Have they even had the same perdiem rate for 15 years?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:56 AM
Do they even change their benefits, profit sharing and work rules via accidental email?

pilotpayne
02-21-2018, 05:59 AM
Do they even change their benefits, profit sharing and work rules via accidental email?

Dude respectfully you just pulled a Barney.

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 05:59 AM
Do they even ask for scheduling concessions from an already hollow scheduling section in exchange for industry worst pay rates?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 06:00 AM
Dude respectfully you just pulled a Barney.

Respectfully, don't care.

PasserOGas
02-21-2018, 07:59 AM
Respectfully, don't care.

Do they have our profit sharing plan?

Xtreme87
02-21-2018, 08:25 AM
Speaking of profit sharing, when is that coming?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 08:41 AM
Do they have our profit sharing plan?

Do they change the formula via accidental email?

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 08:42 AM
Speaking of profit sharing, when is that coming?

Your Jelly of the Month club membership is on its way.

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 08:45 AM
Coincidentally, I actually looked into joining a jelly of the month club, seriously not sure this year's profit sharing will even cover the fee.

But, we did only make 992 million last year. And we only had industry best profit margins. And we did only make the most profit per passenger in the business. And we did only buy back 1.25 billion worth of JB stock to the exclusive benefit of our executive management team and shareholders.

So our expectations should be pretty low. Don't know why I'm so disgusted with this company.... Totally unreasonable negativity.

aldonite7667
02-21-2018, 10:09 AM
Coincidentally, I actually looked into joining a jelly of the month club, seriously not sure this year's profit sharing will even cover the fee.

But, we did only make 992 million last year. And we only had industry best profit margins. And we did only make the most profit per passenger in the business. And we did only buy back 1.25 billion worth of JB stock to the exclusive benefit of our executive management team and shareholders.

So our expectations should be pretty low. Don't know why I'm so disgusted with this company.... Totally unreasonable negativity.

8 years of disappointment.

capt707
02-21-2018, 12:57 PM
Speaking of profit sharing, when is that coming?

Exact percentage and other details should be announced this week, my guess is they will wait until Friday afternoon, the actual payout will be March 15.

atrdriver
02-21-2018, 01:48 PM
Exact percentage and other details should be announced this week, my guess is they will wait until Friday afternoon, the actual payout will be March 15.

That is my guess too. Bad news always comes on Fridays, right?

coopervane
02-21-2018, 01:53 PM
That is my guess too. Bad news always comes on Fridays, right?

But we gave the flight attendants ice mallets.....and curtains......and we clean the carts now........so.........

capt707
02-21-2018, 02:08 PM
That is my guess too. Bad news always comes on Fridays, right?

Or it will be delayed, like the fleet review... ******, I don't care anymore.

Bluedriver
02-21-2018, 07:19 PM
Or it will be delayed, like the fleet review... ******, I don't care anymore.

It's not delayed, they just never finish anything.

hilltopflyer
02-21-2018, 10:25 PM
Speaking of profit sharing, when is that coming?

I wanna know that. I need new parts for my AR build.

Bluedriver
02-22-2018, 04:32 AM
I wanna know that. I need new parts for my AR build.

Classy timing.

hilltopflyer
02-22-2018, 06:02 AM
Classy timing.

It's just a gun... I can shoot as many rounds with my handgun as I can an ar. Honestly I'm building it as my hunting rifle. Not many guns are a better first hunting gun for kids with lack of recoil etc.most AR guys wouldn't like it with a more classic scope and the color of it.

The701Express
02-22-2018, 06:16 AM
A well built strike fund is a more powerful weapon.

hilltopflyer
02-22-2018, 06:28 AM
yep, the ar is what I'll do for fun when we are on strike. Got some coyotes that need to be thinned out. I'm actually looking forward to the strike now. (Kidding)

Therealseal
02-22-2018, 03:11 PM
Quick question, I don't work for B6, but from an outsider looking in I have a question. Is there a reason you guys don't fly to many of the midwestern airports STL, IND, CMH, CVG, MCI, and until recently MSP? And as a follow up, do you guys ever expect to see service to those cities being added?

The701Express
02-22-2018, 03:40 PM
Quick question, I don't work for B6, but from an outsider looking in I have a question. Is there a reason you guys don't fly to many of the midwestern airports STL, IND, CMH, CVG, MCI, and until recently MSP? And as a follow up, do you guys ever expect to see service to those cities being added?

JetBlue is obsessed with profit margins. It believes it can make more profit by flying to the Caribbean or transcon instead of to the Midwest.

Part of that reason I believe is related to the high CASM of the 190. It seems JetBlue doesn't like to fly that plane on stage lengths much longer than 1,000nm. I've heard the 320 has a lower CASM at that distance, which is probably why MSP is getting a 320 right out the gate.

Perhaps we'll see more Midwest growth as Boston grows and becomes more heavily focused on business traffic. A new, lower CASM aircraft to replace the 190s would also help the business case for those markets.

nuball5
02-22-2018, 06:59 PM
Quick question, I don't work for B6, but from an outsider looking in I have a question. Is there a reason you guys don't fly to many of the midwestern airports STL, IND, CMH, CVG, MCI, and until recently MSP? And as a follow up, do you guys ever expect to see service to those cities being added?

I think I remember RH saying in the pocket session video last month that IND is their next target city in the Midwest.

The701Express
02-22-2018, 07:05 PM
I think I remember RH saying in the pocket session video last month that IND is their next target city in the Midwest.

Marty was asked about IND by a flight attendant, I believe, and he said something to the effect of "it's on the list", whatever that means.

queue
02-22-2018, 07:30 PM
Quick question, I don't work for B6, but from an outsider looking in I have a question. Is there a reason you guys don't fly to many of the midwestern airports STL, IND, CMH, CVG, MCI, and until recently MSP? And as a follow up, do you guys ever expect to see service to those cities being added?

In my opinion, I think they are scared of season underperformances exacerbated by extreme competition from the upper and lower ends of the industry. The majors can throw RJs to get service to places Waterloo, IA and other similar places. JB can't really even throw an E-190 at it because it costs a lot to operate. Maybe with electric airplanes it will become more feasible. The other problem I see is that JB doesn't do a huge amount of analysis on routes. I'm sure they have the WOPR working on route strategy day and night but I have my doubts about their algorithms. That being said, JB is a point to point non-stop airline, mostly. I personally think this is a big achilles heel. Our network sucks. Unless you are going to either JFK, BOS, MCO, FLL, LGB, or one of its out and back locations, you can forget about JB. For example, if you want to get from MSY to PBI, you have to go all the way up north to JFK. This is absolutely disastrous to our network. Why fly JB and have an 8 hr adventure when you can fly on SWA, AA, DL and go either non-stop or through ATL?

I don't know if those cities will ever get service but I think we desperately need it. We have a pretty big hole in our network... anything that is not the east or west coast. If they add IND, it might be JFK-IND-JFK or something like that. I heard from a friend that in a recent email they mentioned improving maintenance related schedule disruptions by having more out-and-backs. I personally would add these cities and have a more SWA style route structure. I think JB is constrained by two things: 1) they want to save every penny possible so they want to avoid contract maintenance outside of JB bases, 2) they fly their airplanes 24 hrs/day leaving very little "slack" in the system. It's a mathematical act of sorcery to determine the proper amount of slack in a system where you minimize waste and maximize profit. I personally think that BJ has just enough slack to allow for minor delays but they have mathematically convinced themselves that designing enough slack to deal with IROPs is a waste. In other words, if a snowstorm comes through, or a hurricane, or other large scale disruptions occur, they would rather let the system crash because the overall cost is less than designing a more real-time resilient scheduling protocol.

PasserOGas
02-22-2018, 07:53 PM
So here is a link to the Barclays webcast. Put in a fake name and email to listen to it.

http://investor.jetblue.com/investor-relations/events-and-presentations/events-calendar.aspx

Big picture, they cut growth to get their margins up. National airline growth is around 4%. We are growing 5-7% or 2-3% faster than the legacies. If they don't get "superior margins" through other means expect that rate to drop further. They seem very proud of the fact that they killed the growth story here.

Also expect more buybacks as a way to transfer the profits from your low pay and stagnant growth to the shareholders.

Jetblew, FU Pay Me.

Bluedriver
02-23-2018, 01:39 AM
So here is a link to the Barclays webcast. Put in a fake name and email to listen to it.

http://investor.jetblue.com/investor-relations/events-and-presentations/events-calendar.aspx

Big picture, they cut growth to get their margins up. National airline growth is around 4%. We are growing 5-7% or 2-3% faster than the legacies. If they don't get "superior margins" through other means expect that rate to drop further. They seem very proud of the fact that they killed the growth story here.

Also expect more buybacks as a way to transfer the profits from your low pay and stagnant growth to the shareholders.

Jetblew, FU Pay Me.

You are very negative. You should look at the bright side and reflect on JB pilots career strengths.

Therealseal
02-23-2018, 02:32 AM
JetBlue is obsessed with profit margins. It believes it can make more profit by flying to the Caribbean or transcon instead of to the Midwest.

Part of that reason I believe is related to the high CASM of the 190. It seems JetBlue doesn't like to fly that plane on stage lengths much longer than 1,000nm. I've heard the 320 has a lower CASM at that distance, which is probably why MSP is getting a 320 right out the gate.

Perhaps we'll see more Midwest growth as Boston grows and becomes more heavily focused on business traffic. A new, lower CASM aircraft to replace the 190s would also help the business case for those markets.

In my opinion, I think they are scared of season underperformances exacerbated by extreme competition from the upper and lower ends of the industry. The majors can throw RJs to get service to places Waterloo, IA and other similar places. JB can't really even throw an E-190 at it because it costs a lot to operate. Maybe with electric airplanes it will become more feasible. The other problem I see is that JB doesn't do a huge amount of analysis on routes. I'm sure they have the WOPR working on route strategy day and night but I have my doubts about their algorithms. That being said, JB is a point to point non-stop airline, mostly. I personally think this is a big achilles heel. Our network sucks. Unless you are going to either JFK, BOS, MCO, FLL, LGB, or one of its out and back locations, you can forget about JB. For example, if you want to get from MSY to PBI, you have to go all the way up north to JFK. This is absolutely disastrous to our network. Why fly JB and have an 8 hr adventure when you can fly on SWA, AA, DL and go either non-stop or through ATL?

I don't know if those cities will ever get service but I think we desperately need it. We have a pretty big hole in our network... anything that is not the east or west coast. If they add IND, it might be JFK-IND-JFK or something like that. I heard from a friend that in a recent email they mentioned improving maintenance related schedule disruptions by having more out-and-backs. I personally would add these cities and have a more SWA style route structure. I think JB is constrained by two things: 1) they want to save every penny possible so they want to avoid contract maintenance outside of JB bases, 2) they fly their airplanes 24 hrs/day leaving very little "slack" in the system. It's a mathematical act of sorcery to determine the proper amount of slack in a system where you minimize waste and maximize profit. I personally think that BJ has just enough slack to allow for minor delays but they have mathematically convinced themselves that designing enough slack to deal with IROPs is a waste. In other words, if a snowstorm comes through, or a hurricane, or other large scale disruptions occur, they would rather let the system crash because the overall cost is less than designing a more real-time resilient scheduling protocol.

I think I remember RH saying in the pocket session video last month that IND is their next target city in the Midwest.

Thanks for the insight!

Speedbird2263
02-23-2018, 05:50 AM
For example, if you want to get from MSY to PBI, you have to go all the way up north to JFK. This is absolutely disastrous to our network. Why fly JB and have an 8 hr adventure when you can fly on SWA, AA, DL and go either non-stop or through ATL?

I understand the point of your post however we fly MSY-FLL so while not exactly point to point in that example it's almost the same as FLL/MIA. Getting from ATL-LAX/LGB on B6 would be a better example. Not that we ever did that ;)

PasserOGas
03-05-2018, 10:17 AM
Hey guys! The new system bid is out! 0.5% movement! Totally not stagnant!

Bozo the pilot
03-05-2018, 10:22 AM
Hey guys! The new system bid is out! 0.5% movement! Totally not stagnant!

I expect the juicers to appear and tout (defend) these numbers.
B6=regional

BeatNavy
03-05-2018, 10:27 AM
I expect the juicers to appear and tout (defend) these numbers.
B6=regional

B6 is not = to a regional. Regionals actually have movement and higher first and second year pay.

atrdriver
03-05-2018, 10:31 AM
B6 is not = to a regional. Regionals actually have movement and higher first and second year pay.

Correct. The similarities are to how JB is run, not to movement. I wonder if regional airline SOC managers would be willing to take a pay cut to come work here and get us on track.

Bozo the pilot
03-05-2018, 10:33 AM
B6 is not = to a regional. Regionals actually have movement and higher first and second year pay.

I stand corrected. My healthcare was also better at Piedmont. Pathetic.:cool:

Therealseal
04-24-2018, 09:44 PM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/04/24/jetblue-routes-los-angeles/546008002/

Sounds like a decent sized expansion on the way

PasserOGas
04-25-2018, 02:25 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/04/24/jetblue-routes-los-angeles/546008002/

Sounds like a decent sized expansion on the way

"Free beer tomorrow!"

Where is the expanded order book?

Ted Striker
04-25-2018, 02:42 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/04/24/jetblue-routes-los-angeles/546008002/

Sounds like a decent sized expansion on the way

If by decent size you mean shifting flying from LGB, then yes, a decent shift in flying.

Bozo the pilot
04-25-2018, 04:37 AM
If by decent size you mean shifting flying from LGB, then yes, a decent shift in flying.

I hate this place
FUPM B6

capt707
04-25-2018, 06:06 AM
https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/flights/todayinthesky/2018/04/24/jetblue-routes-los-angeles/546008002/

Sounds like a decent sized expansion on the way

I wouldn't call it a decent size expansion... ok, maybe for JB it is :rolleyes: Seems like Frontier, Spirit, etc are announcing new routes on a weekly basis.

Bluedriver
04-25-2018, 07:31 AM
I wouldn't call it a decent size expansion... ok, maybe for JB it is :rolleyes: Seems like Frontier, Spirit, etc are announcing new routes on a weekly basis.

And isn't it primarily a SHIFTING of current routes?

capt707
04-25-2018, 07:51 AM
And isn't it primarily a SHIFTING of current routes?

Probably. I'm expecting some route cuts from LGB, plus HDN will probably be seasonal anyway and only 2-3 times a week...

Still lot's of holes to fill in the middle of the country...

CaptCoolHand
04-25-2018, 08:03 AM
Probably. I'm expecting some route cuts from LGB, plus HDN will probably be seasonal anyway and only 2-3 times a week...

Still lot's of holes to fill in the middle of the country...

Oh this is gonna be awesome!

IROP pants level expert. Saturday and Wednesday service Mx, Wx, EMR assigned to tomorrow timed out crews super excited passengers!

Tom a Hawk
04-25-2018, 08:07 AM
Oh this is gonna be awesome!

IROP pants level expert. Saturday and Wednesday service Mx, Wx, EMR assigned to tomorrow timed out crews super excited passengers!

So, 72hr overnights?

Bluedriver
04-25-2018, 08:13 AM
Oh this is gonna be awesome!

IROP pants level expert. Saturday and Wednesday service Mx, Wx, EMR assigned to tomorrow timed out crews super excited passengers!

I don't know Cool, I don't see how this could go wrong. JB has a plan.

Bluedriver
04-25-2018, 08:14 AM
Probably. I'm expecting some route cuts from LGB, plus HDN will probably be seasonal anyway and only 2-3 times a week...

Still lot's of holes to fill in the middle of the country...

Holes in the middle of the country, that's an understatement...

CaptCoolHand
04-25-2018, 09:02 AM
I don't know Cool, I don't see how this could go wrong. JB has a plan.

I know man. We've got OTP!

Therealseal
04-25-2018, 06:54 PM
Holes in the middle of the country, that's an understatement...

Basically every mid-sized city between Denver and Pittsburgh...

BeatNavy
04-25-2018, 07:27 PM
Basically every city that isnít NY, BOS, MCO, FLL, LA, and SJU...

Fixed it for you.

benzoate
04-27-2018, 03:51 AM
I know man. We've got OTP!

12 out 12 (D0/A14) in on time performance and currently 35% D0 for the month.

PasserOGas
05-31-2018, 06:09 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/05/31/delta-pumps-1-point-9-billion-into-lax-a-really-important-market-ceo-edward-bastian.html

Bluedriver
05-31-2018, 08:01 PM
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/05/31/delta-pumps-1-point-9-billion-into-lax-a-really-important-market-ceo-edward-bastian.html

Failed model. We have JetSuiteX.

cmesoar
06-01-2018, 04:29 AM
Failed model. We have JetSuiteX.

Or better yet: We have LGB, where the local citizens hate our guts.

This should have been us going after expansion in LAX. If we got it we could decrease LGB overnight and give those Pric&s what they want. I don't believe in fairy tails though...Lets keep increasing flight to HAV, cause that's cool. :mad:

Bluedriver
06-01-2018, 05:28 AM
I was talking to our execs the other day. They have a plan to grow LA basin considerably, but have decided instead to run hourly shuttle service with non-stop flights between SDQ-STI.

They said "less competition and customers that don't care about our terrible operational performance".

Makes sense to me.

David Puddy
06-01-2018, 08:16 AM
What about the Orlando expansion and the potential e190 replacement order?

Bluedriver
06-01-2018, 09:20 AM
What about the Orlando expansion and the potential e190 replacement order?

WHY ARE YOU ASKING PILOTS!

We *don't* know.

Honestly, in all seriousness, if they do not announce C-series by the opening of the CBA vote, (maybe as late as before the end of the vote) they are NOT coming.

I just talked to a guy today who was told by those "in the know" that the decision has not yet been made, and that they know they need to make a decision "within the next couple of months".

I don't put a lot of trust in this info from him, but if it is at all true, the announcement would be after the vote and if that's the case, I'd bet $500 it's the E2.

If they haven't announced by voting time, it's the E2 kids.

PasserOGas
06-01-2018, 09:58 AM
WHY ARE YOU ASKING PILOTS!

We *don't* know.

Honestly, in all seriousness, if they do not announce C-series by the opening of the CBA vote, (maybe as late as before the end of the vote) they are NOT coming.

I just talked to a guy today who was told by those "in the know" that the decision has not yet been made, and that they know they need to make a decision "within the next couple of months".

I don't put a lot of trust in this info from him, but if it is at all true, the announcement would be after the vote and if that's the case, I'd bet $500 it's the E2.

If they haven't announced by voting time, it's the E2 kids.

Extra seats, same discount salary. Why not?

CaptCoolHand
06-01-2018, 10:30 AM
What about the Orlando expansion and the potential e190 replacement order?

What about it?

Mco expansion in 2years ish.

Fleet review will be done fall 2016.

Thatís what weíre told

aldonite7667
06-01-2018, 12:28 PM
What about it?

Mco expansion in 2years ish.

Fleet review will be done fall 2016.

Thatís what weíre told

Same with LGB. 2 yrs. itís going to be huge

queue
06-01-2018, 02:45 PM
Same with LGB. 2 yrs. itís going to be huge

And Transatlantic flight on the 321LR at exclusive AIP discount/budget pilot rates!


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

David Puddy
06-01-2018, 06:32 PM
WHY ARE YOU ASKING PILOTS!

We *don't* know.

Honestly, in all seriousness, if they do not announce C-series by the opening of the CBA vote, (maybe as late as before the end of the vote) they are NOT coming.

I just talked to a guy today who was told by those "in the know" that the decision has not yet been made, and that they know they need to make a decision "within the next couple of months".

I don't put a lot of trust in this info from him, but if it is at all true, the announcement would be after the vote and if that's the case, I'd bet $500 it's the E2.

If they haven't announced by voting time, it's the E2 kids.

First, chill out dude. Last time I checked this was a pilot forum - hence the question to us pilots. I was just suggesting that maybe JB was not ďentirely stagnantĒ given some big initiatives and, right or wrong, some contract movement. Stagnant implies zero change. I hope we see big changes including hub expansion and a new fleet.

IMO, the CSeries is a much better and more versatile option for achieving profitable growth in a highly competitive industry than the revamped and re-winged E190 but I have zero say in the matter...... Everyone has an opinion and can speculate about what might happen and I was merely asking for an update and suggesting that we are seeing some change (not stagnant) - hopefully for the better.

BeatNavy
06-01-2018, 07:14 PM
First, chill out dude. Last time I checked this was a pilot forum - hence the question to us pilots. I was just suggesting that maybe JB was not ďentirely stagnantĒ given some big initiatives and, right or wrong, some contract movement. Stagnant implies zero change. I hope we see big changes including hub expansion and a new fleet.

IMO, the CSeries is a much better and more versatile option for achieving profitable growth in a highly competitive industry than the revamped and re-winged E190 but I have zero say in the matter...... Everyone has an opinion and can speculate about what might happen and I was merely asking for an update and suggesting that we are seeing some change (not stagnant) - hopefully for the better.

I am 50/50 on whether we will go E2 vs C Series. I can make compelling arguments for both, based on stuff I've heard from all these jetblue pilot CEOs who claim to know "it's a done deal" both ways. The C Series would give us a lot more route versatility and longer term benefit IMO, as well as covering a lot of our old 320s that will need to get turned back in the next 5-10 years. But the cost of admission is higher based on the two companies' order books with BBD having a lot more other orders to work on. I think they has enough orders to keep the production line busy for awhile, and rising oil prices will keep helping these super casm efficient aircraft make sales. EMB needs some sales BADLY. And they can't afford to lose us as customers.

I am also 50/50 on whether we will replace our 60 E190s 1 for 1. I think if they go C series, they need to make a big order for lower pricing and longer term fleet planning. Also if they go CS, I think it will be during voting as a carrot. Those c series rates are sub-delta, and too low, but they are much better than the E190/195 rates. I think that was a strategic move to attract votes during crunch time. Or, if I'm wrong on that prediction, it could be played as a carrot to vote even without an order (playing off hope), and then after the vote closes, depending on if it's ratified, the E195-E2 order comes out and we are stuck flying a 126 seat plane at $207 an hour like a bunch of chumps.

With Air Baltic's order the other day of 60 more C series, and with all of Delta's orders, the delivery slots will likely be fairly sparse. The E195-E2 has relatively fewer orders, we have 24 orders on the books for more E190s in the next few years that we won't take, and so I imagine we could take delivery of more E195-E2s faster.

But, who cares, I don't buy planes, I fly them, and collect a pay check. So FUPM, more than $207 an hour!

todd1200
06-01-2018, 07:16 PM
First, chill out dude. Last time I checked this was a pilot forum - hence the question to us pilots. I was just suggesting that maybe JB was not ďentirely stagnantĒ given some big initiatives and, right or wrong, some contract movement. Stagnant implies zero change. I hope we see big changes including hub expansion and a new fleet.

IMO, the CSeries is a much better and more versatile option for achieving profitable growth in a highly competitive industry than the revamped and re-winged E190 but I have zero say in the matter...... Everyone has an opinion and can speculate about what might happen and I was merely asking for an update and suggesting that we are seeing some change (not stagnant) - hopefully for the better.

I think the definition of ďstagnateĒ was changed some time ago in the JB forums to encompass rates of growth that are slower than expected or fail to meet a posterís personal expectations

PasserOGas
06-02-2018, 03:21 AM
I think the definition of ďstagnateĒ was changed some time ago in the JB forums to encompass rates of growth that are slower than expected or fail to meet a posterís personal expectations

Yeah, because to some people 1%/yr seniority growth is still growth, while to others it is near zero.

It usually correlates to whether you think getting a raise while still making less than your peers warrants a yes or no vote.

pilotpayne
06-02-2018, 08:41 AM
I think the definition of ďstagnateĒ was changed some time ago in the JB forums to encompass rates of growth that are slower than expected or fail to meet a posterís personal expectations

Yes we love changing definations to fit our arguments.

It was a spy no it was an informant.

Itís actually a very good tactic and if you shout down the people that donít agree your definition wins. Not picking on anyone just an observation of conversations in todayís world

pilotpayne
06-02-2018, 08:43 AM
First, chill out dude. Last time I checked this was a pilot forum - hence the question to us pilots. I was just suggesting that maybe JB was not ďentirely stagnantĒ given some big initiatives and, right or wrong, some contract movement. Stagnant implies zero change. I hope we see big changes including hub expansion and a new fleet.

IMO, the CSeries is a much better and more versatile option for achieving profitable growth in a highly competitive industry than the revamped and re-winged E190 but I have zero say in the matter...... Everyone has an opinion and can speculate about what might happen and I was merely asking for an update and suggesting that we are seeing some change (not stagnant) - hopefully for the better.


Iím sorry you must submit all future questions in writing at least 3 Days in advance so we can decide if you may post or not.

pilotpayne
06-02-2018, 08:45 AM
I am 50/50 on whether we will go E2 vs C Series. I can make compelling arguments for both, based on stuff I've heard from all these jetblue pilot CEOs who claim to know "it's a done deal" both ways. The C Series would give us a lot more route versatility and longer term benefit IMO, as well as covering a lot of our old 320s that will need to get turned back in the next 5-10 years. But the cost of admission is higher based on the two companies' order books with BBD having a lot more other orders to work on. I think they has enough orders to keep the production line busy for awhile, and rising oil prices will keep helping these super casm efficient aircraft make sales. EMB needs some sales BADLY. And they can't afford to lose us as customers.

I am also 50/50 on whether we will replace our 60 E190s 1 for 1. I think if they go C series, they need to make a big order for lower pricing and longer term fleet planning. Also if they go CS, I think it will be during voting as a carrot. Those c series rates are sub-delta, and too low, but they are much better than the E190/195 rates. I think that was a strategic move to attract votes during crunch time. Or, if I'm wrong on that prediction, it could be played as a carrot to vote even without an order (playing off hope), and then after the vote closes, depending on if it's ratified, the E195-E2 order comes out and we are stuck flying a 126 seat plane at $207 an hour like a bunch of chumps.

With Air Baltic's order the other day of 60 more C series, and with all of Delta's orders, the delivery slots will likely be fairly sparse. The E195-E2 has relatively fewer orders, we have 24 orders on the books for more E190s in the next few years that we won't take, and so I imagine we could take delivery of more E195-E2s faster.

But, who cares, I don't buy planes, I fly them, and collect a pay check. So FUPM, more than $207 an hour!



What we know is we donít know

Gordie H
06-02-2018, 10:47 AM
Itís actually a very good tactic and if you shout down the people that donít agree your definition wins. Not picking on anyone just an observation of conversations in todayís world

SHUT UP!! Youíre WRONG!!! And a very bad person....

:p:D

CaptCoolHand
06-02-2018, 11:38 AM
I pooed in the crashpad poop tank... and let it "stagnate".

There was no motion... until there was.

Bluedriver
06-02-2018, 11:39 AM
I am 50/50 on whether we will go E2 vs C Series. I can make compelling arguments for both, based on stuff I've heard from all these jetblue pilot CEOs who claim to know "it's a done deal" both ways. The C Series would give us a lot more route versatility and longer term benefit IMO, as well as covering a lot of our old 320s that will need to get turned back in the next 5-10 years. But the cost of admission is higher based on the two companies' order books with BBD having a lot more other orders to work on. I think they has enough orders to keep the production line busy for awhile, and rising oil prices will keep helping these super casm efficient aircraft make sales. EMB needs some sales BADLY. And they can't afford to lose us as customers.

I am also 50/50 on whether we will replace our 60 E190s 1 for 1. I think if they go C series, they need to make a big order for lower pricing and longer term fleet planning. Also if they go CS, I think it will be during voting as a carrot. Those c series rates are sub-delta, and too low, but they are much better than the E190/195 rates. I think that was a strategic move to attract votes during crunch time. Or, if I'm wrong on that prediction, it could be played as a carrot to vote even without an order (playing off hope), and then after the vote closes, depending on if it's ratified, the E195-E2 order comes out and we are stuck flying a 126 seat plane at $207 an hour like a bunch of chumps.

With Air Baltic's order the other day of 60 more C series, and with all of Delta's orders, the delivery slots will likely be fairly sparse. The E195-E2 has relatively fewer orders, we have 24 orders on the books for more E190s in the next few years that we won't take, and so I imagine we could take delivery of more E195-E2s faster.

But, who cares, I don't buy planes, I fly them, and collect a pay check. So FUPM, more than $207 an hour!

Those are the exact two scenarios I see happening.

David Puddy continues to ask the exact people that do NOT know the answer. There is so much disinformation being spread around, that anything we do hear is completely unreliable anyway.

If you other dude want to call worst seniority movement among our peers anything other than stagnant, knock yourselves out.

It's bad no matter what you call it.

CaptCoolHand
06-02-2018, 11:49 AM
Those are the exact two scenarios I see happening.

David Puddy continues to ask the exact people that do NOT know the answer. There is so much disinformation being spread around, that anything we do hear is completely unreliable anyway.

If you other dude want to call worst seniority movement among our peers anything other than stagnant, knock yourselves out.

It's bad no matter what you call it.

I think the 3rd scenario is there is no fleet update and the 190 actually goes away.

Bluedriver
06-02-2018, 12:24 PM
I think the 3rd scenario is there is no fleet update and the 190 actually goes away.

Sure.

I just think the two he said are the two most likely short term scenarios.

We'll know within 2 years of the next 2 years.

pilotpayne
06-02-2018, 12:44 PM
SHUT UP!! Youíre WRONG!!! And a very bad person....

:p:D

No argument there

pilotpayne
06-02-2018, 12:45 PM
I think the 3rd scenario is there is no fleet update and the 190 actually goes away.

But depending how you look at it that would be a fleet update:D

Bluedriver
06-02-2018, 02:46 PM
But depending how you look at it that would be a fleet update:D

Disregard....

pilotpayne
06-03-2018, 08:37 AM
Disregard....

Ahhh you see what I did there?

CaptCoolHand
06-03-2018, 08:47 AM
But depending how you look at it that would be a fleet update:D

[email protected]

windrider
06-07-2018, 08:33 AM
CSeries is going away, Airbus wants to designate it as a new A200/280. What happens to current orders, who knows.

BeatNavy
06-07-2018, 08:40 AM
CSeries is going away, Airbus wants to designate it as a new A200/280. What happens to current orders, who knows.

The name may go away. The airplane and itís orders arenít.

Bluedriver
06-07-2018, 08:44 AM
CSeries is going away, Airbus wants to designate it as a new A200/280. What happens to current orders, who knows.

C stands for Carrot.

PasserOGas
06-07-2018, 10:08 AM
C stands for Carrot.

What a sad, sad carrot. An RJ with pay rates well below the industry. "But it's NEW and SHINY!!"

Bluedriver
06-07-2018, 10:14 AM
What a sad, sad carrot. An RJ with pay rates well below the industry. "But it's NEW and SHINY!!"

You're not wrong, but the REAL carrot is avoiding the alternative, which is an E95 order with pay rates far, far, far worse.

BJ makes bad look good by making the alternative worse!

hyperboy
06-07-2018, 10:18 AM
What a sad, sad carrot. An RJ with pay rates well below the industry. "But it's NEW and SHINY!!"


If you talking about the E 190 its not below. We are setting the bar for that airframe. FYI. I am just talking about the 190 and what the mediator looks at.

This is a statement not an opinion.

Bluedriver
06-07-2018, 10:43 AM
If you talking about the E 190 its not below. We are setting the bar for that airframe. FYI. I am just talking about the 190 and what the mediator looks at.

This is a statement not an opinion.

Well then maybe we should remove the 737 and the 737 operators from all of our Airbus rate computations?

benzoate
06-07-2018, 10:57 AM
C stands for Carrot.

Its funny you mentioned that. Jetblue pilots have NEVER had a proverbial carrot dangled in front of them. What has been dangled, and subsequently taken away, was maintaining the current health care or pairing construction.

Thats how pathetic this place is. Other carriers are threatened with new AC orders or something along those lines but at jetblue they threaten you with something you already have.

BeatNavy
06-07-2018, 11:28 AM
If you talking about the E 190 its not below. We are setting the bar for that airframe. FYI. I am just talking about the 190 and what the mediator looks at.

This is a statement not an opinion.

We are only setting the bar higher than what we set when we were the launch customer for it...which isn't saying much. We are responsible for such a low E190 industry rate, and no other airline has any reason to negotiate it higher, as it is a ghost rate everywhere else. Other 100-130 seat aircraft that they do have or are actually getting, is much higher. All other 190 ghost rates followed the low bar we set. The 195, and especially the 195-E2, although "pay banded across the rest of the industry" ought to have been fought harder for a separate rate. 195 E2 holds more than a CS100 and a 717, and is a lot more capable than the latter, and ought to be compensated accordingly. We dropped the ball on the 195 E2 rate. Unless the NC knows we have a pending announcement for the CS100/CS300, I see no reason why they would have agreed to add the E195-E2 to our current E190 pay family. As is, our pay rate only covers E190s, not 195s or E2s. We caved on adding the 195E2 rate...that's a huge loss for us, and a huge win for the company, unless we never get the E2s. If they can have us fly 128 seat E195-E2s for 80% of the pay of Delta's 717/CS100 rates (smaller aircraft), and 90% of HAL's 717 rates, the company won, bigly.

hyperboy
06-07-2018, 11:49 AM
We are only setting the bar higher than what we set when we were the launch customer for it...which isn't saying much. We are responsible for such a low E190 industry rate, and no other airline has any reason to negotiate it higher, as it is a ghost rate everywhere else. Other 100-130 seat aircraft that they do have or are actually getting, is much higher. All other 190 ghost rates followed the low bar we set. The 195, and especially the 195-E2, although "pay banded across the rest of the industry" ought to have been fought harder for a separate rate. 195 E2 holds more than a CS100 and a 717, and is a lot more capable than the latter, and ought to be compensated accordingly. We dropped the ball on the 195 E2 rate. Unless the NC knows we have a pending announcement for the CS100/CS300, I see no reason why they would have agreed to add the E195-E2 to our current E190 pay family. As is, our pay rate only covers E190s, not 195s or E2s. We caved on adding the 195E2 rate...that's a huge loss for us, and a huge win for the company, unless we never get the E2s. If they can have us fly 128 seat E195-E2s for 80% of the pay of Delta's 717/CS100 rates (smaller aircraft), and 90% of HAL's 717 rates, the company won, bigly.

I agree to all of this.......but this is not how mediation works. They compare aircraft. I asked this question.

Bluedriver
06-07-2018, 12:04 PM
I agree to all of this.......but this is not how mediation works. They compare aircraft. I asked this question.

Then the mediator must have told our NC to remove all the 737 rates and 737 work rule operators from the calculations.

BeatNavy
06-07-2018, 12:05 PM
I agree to all of this.......but this is not how mediation works. They compare aircraft. I asked this question.

I know...I asked too. I just don't agree with their answer. And we aren't bound to accept any rates in mediation. The only time we are bound to rates is in arbitration, which we would never agree to IMO. The mediator can point to other E190/E195 rates and suggest where we should be all day long, but our NC has zero obligation to accept it. There is a clear discrepancy between E195E2 size/capability and it's pay in comparison to 717/C series rates, and it needs to be fixed, and we have a good case to the mediator that regardless of our current book E190 rates in comparison to the rest of the industry, and the proposed rates, the E195E2 is 25% bigger, 25% more range, and should command a higher rate than the current gen E190. They could have held their ground on the 195 E2 rates IMO. I understand they have to pick their battles, and obviously the NC didn't feel they could effectively hold out on this and make any more gains in that regard, and were satisfied with $207. I'm not on the NC, I wasn't in the room, but I still have my opinion on what is possible, what is acceptable, what is reasonable, and what is my personal minimum for a yes vote. I will see how the TA looks, what kind of fleet review decisions happen between now and close of voting, if any, attend road shows, and then decide. But $207 to fly a 128 seat plane 2600nm? No thanks.

I ask myself this question when evaluating our bullet points, and will continue to do so when we get a TA:

Can JetBlue afford to pay for ____ and still grow and be profitable?

In this case, can JetBlue afford to pay $230 an hour for E190, $240 for E195, and still be profitable? Yes...they can. So why aren't they willing to pay us that?

Bluedriver
06-07-2018, 12:07 PM
I know...I asked too. I just don't agree with their answer. And we aren't bound to accept any rates in mediation. The only time we are bound to rates is in arbitration, which we would never agree to IMO. The mediator can point to other E190/E195 rates and suggest where we should be all day long, but our NC has zero obligation to accept it. There is a clear discrepancy between E195E2 size/capability and it's pay in comparison to 717/C series rates, and it needs to be fixed, and we have a good case to the mediator that regardless of our current book E190 rates in comparison to the rest of the industry, and the proposed rates, the E195E2 is 25% bigger, 25% more range, and should command a higher rate than the current gen E190. They could have held their ground on the 195 E2 rates IMO. I understand they have to pick their battles, and obviously the NC didn't feel they could effectively hold out on this and make any more gains in that regard, and were satisfied with $207. I'm not on the NC, I wasn't in the room, but I still have my opinion on what is possible, what is acceptable, what is reasonable, and what is my personal minimum for a yes vote. I will see how the TA looks, what kind of fleet review decisions happen between now and close of voting, if any, attend road shows, and then decide. But $207 to fly a 128 seat plane 2600nm? No thanks.

But but but excuses, reasons and stuff.

Totally agree.

Why does the mediator allow us to compare our rates to 737 operators?

Blue Dude
06-08-2018, 06:25 AM
I ask myself this: why do we have 195, E2, or C series rates at all? We don't operate those and maybe never will. Why should we define rates for them, and spend important time and negotiating capital on them, when all we need is a clause that specifies that the company and pilots need to agree on pay rates before operating another type. Done.

Speedbird2263
06-08-2018, 06:37 AM
I ask myself this: why do we have 195, E2, or C series rates at all? We don't operate those and maybe never will. Why should we define rates for them, and spend important time and negotiating capital on them, when all we need is a clause that specifies that the company and pilots need to agree on pay rates before operating another type. Done.

I'd imagine that was more of a mutal ask so that they(management) can have a formal number going forward of unit costs with regards to potential fleet updates/replacements rather than having to go back to negotiating after a CBA is achieved. In my opinion it shows their hand a little in that you shouldn't expect to see an A330 on the ramp anytime soon but you may very well see an E2/CSeries. IMO of course.

Blue Dude
06-08-2018, 06:57 AM
They can estimate cost very closely without knowing the exact pay scale, so having a pre-negotiated scale in place is not a prerequisite for a new type. We give away leverage by locking in ghost rates, especially if they're as low as these are. There's no reason why we need them, so I hope we got something good in return.

JetRage
06-08-2018, 10:52 AM
When is the vote? Someone probably said already but i can't find it.

todd1200
06-08-2018, 12:05 PM
When is the vote? Someone probably said already but i can't find it.

We don't know yet. They're drafting final language now, then it goes to MEC to vote on whether or not to send it out to the pilot group. We might see it mid-to-late June or early July?

coopervane
06-08-2018, 12:41 PM
I pooed in the crashpad poop tank... and let it "stagnate".

There was no motion... until there was.

Aaaaaaaahhh.......the upper decker poop"..

Bravo..

Bozo the pilot
06-08-2018, 03:09 PM
We don't know yet. They're drafting final language now, then it goes to MEC to vote on whether or not to send it out to the pilot group. We might see it mid-to-late June or early July?

Not now- The company just proved this was only a ploy to get the summer out of us. Theyll drag this out forever,:mad:
SOP.

blueballs
06-08-2018, 03:40 PM
Not now- The company just proved this was only a ploy to get the summer out of us. Theyll drag this out forever,:mad:
SOP.
There Will Be Blood!!!!

Bozo the pilot
06-08-2018, 03:46 PM
There Will Be Blood!!!!

Absolutely.
War.

queue
06-08-2018, 08:49 PM
Absolutely.
War.

There's a reason the US used atomic weapons against Japan, even though some historians argued the "war had already been won at that point".

Never forget who BJ is owned and operated by. Now you have Joanna, a lawyer.

Show no mercy until the contract with PAY & RULES is SIGNED and IMPLEMENTED.

Have we learned anything yet? Time to stop being Regional pilots.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Shigemitsu-signs-surrender.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

rightside02
06-08-2018, 09:31 PM
What was said or updated from the company fellas ? I am reading these comments on various sites but no details ?

What changed ????

todd1200
06-09-2018, 12:59 AM
What was said or updated from the company fellas ? I am reading these comments on various sites but no details ?

What changed ????

ALPA update that the meetings to finalize language and establish implementation timelines, which I think many assumed would go relatively smoothly, have become contentious.

hyperboy
06-09-2018, 07:10 AM
There Will Be Blood!!!!


Calm down Braveheart.....plenty of time bots out there to do th dirty work .

blueballs
06-09-2018, 08:02 AM
Calm down Braveheart.....plenty of time bots out there to do th dirty work .
Now is not the time to calm down [deleted] “I know it keeps getting better” but report to your masters that it’s about to get a lot worse than they thought for the summer

hyperboy
06-09-2018, 08:51 AM
Now is not the time to calm down [deleted]. “I know it keeps getting better” but report to your masters that it’s about to get a lot worse than they thought for the summer

Calling me out by name huh? What's your name? Yes you are a coward for doing that? Be a man since you disclosed my name on the on this site you should do the same? Did you go to your union meeting? I did. So am I suppose to do something other than the MEC's email and direction?...

hyperboy
06-09-2018, 08:57 AM
Now is not the time to calm down [delered]. “I know it keeps getting better” but report to your masters that it’s about to get a lot worse than they thought for the summer

Not cool. You think its OK to hide but disclose others identity?