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View Full Version : Silly radio tuning question?


Sunvox
01-28-2018, 05:06 AM
Just curious. Does American allow pilots to "cross tune" radios? For those who may not know what I mean, I am talking about the modern style radio control panel that can be used to control any radio. In the planes that have that style of radio is the right seater permitted to control VHF L frequency from their side?

At UAL it's standard practice on the Airbus, but on the 777 some old time captain's don't allow it and require that the VHF R control panel always be tuned to VHF R only.

Anyways, just wondering?


aa73
01-28-2018, 05:33 AM
Not that I can think of... AA standard practice is to always transmit to ATC on VHF1 and company/Ramp/Guard On VHF 2. So the PM always changes ATC frequencies on the CA’s side VHF1, I have never seen or heard of the FO controlling VHF1 from his/her side.

sumwherelse
01-28-2018, 05:42 AM
Not that I can think of... AA standard practice is to always transmit to ATC on VHF1 and company/Ramp/Guard On VHF 2. So the PM always changes ATC frequencies on the CAís side VHF1, I have never seen or heard of the FO controlling VHF1 from his/her side.

I guess thatís a Boeing thing. Because on the bus thereís no rules about which radio you are permitted to tune. Ridiculous. Sorry.


Al Czervik
01-28-2018, 05:58 AM
A lot of stupid procedures on the Boeing at AA. Do you UAL guys guard the throttles on Boeing?

Sunvox
01-28-2018, 06:16 AM
A lot of stupid procedures on the Boeing at AA. Do you UAL guys guard the throttles on Boeing?

It's allowed and a few old timers still do, but it's mostly disappearing.

I really find the tuning panel issue incredible. It's called a "radio tuning panel" because it tunes . . . wait for it . . . radioS plural not just VHF R, but heh who am I to argue with Luddites.

Sadly ran into this on my second to last trip as an FO. Luckily I only have one more trip as an FO and I'm off to training as an Airbus captain in EWR. Who knew it would be 22 years to make captain. (I should preface that by admitting I waited and will be 31% in base.)

Sliceback
01-28-2018, 07:47 AM
AB it’s common. Not done on the Boeing. Nothing prohibits it but guys don’t. Setting HF freqs is about the only place I see it done or setting 121.5/123.45 for overwater portions. .

TonyC
01-28-2018, 08:33 AM
Two points:

First, when everybody flies with different people all the time, standardization establishes normal expectations and reduces the potential for confusion. The particular way of doing it is not as important as is doing it the same way all the time. Habits and muscle memory are usually more efficient than having to stop and look and think before acting.

Second, have you considered what works and what doesn't in an Emergency Power situation? It's possible that the standard way or preferred way is actually the preferred way or even the only way if functionality is lost during an abnormal event.






.

Al Czervik
01-28-2018, 09:10 AM
Second, have you considered what works and what doesn't in an Emergency Power situation? It's possible that the standard way or preferred way is actually the preferred way or even the only way if functionality is lost during an abnormal event.






.

If this is the case, ramp on 2 in the bus wasnít well thought out.

Sliceback
01-28-2018, 09:19 AM
If this is the case, ramp on 2 in the bus wasnít well thought out.

ATC on #1 makes even more sense. Stop the plane on the ramp. If itís bad call ground on #1. Thatís where the important help is.

Laker24
01-28-2018, 10:01 AM
Just curious. Does American allow pilots to "cross tune" radios? For those who may not know what I mean, I am talking about the modern style radio control panel that can be used to control any radio. In the planes that have that style of radio is the right seater permitted to control VHF L frequency from their side?



On the airbus yes.

Mover
01-28-2018, 10:05 AM
Not that I can think of... AA standard practice is to always transmit to ATC on VHF1 and company/Ramp/Guard On VHF 2. So the PM always changes ATC frequencies on the CAís side VHF1, I have never seen or heard of the FO controlling VHF1 from his/her side.

I do it most of the time. Not that hard to hit VHF1, switch the freq, then hit VHF2. Most captains never even notice.

Absolutely no reason to reach across when there's a perfectly good panel right there.

EMBFlyer
01-28-2018, 10:21 AM
The Airbus, yes. In fact, it's encouraged and pretty much standard practice. Plus, the placement of the RTPs almost necessitates it.

On the 737, no. But, in reality, you're only reaching another inch or 2.

Al Czervik
01-28-2018, 10:42 AM
ATC on #1 makes even more sense. Stop the plane on the ramp. If it’s bad call ground on #1. That’s where the important help is...........

450knotOffice
01-28-2018, 11:40 AM
Obsess much?

Honestly, most people I fly with DGAF which radio one uses to talk to ramp, as long as we are both on the same page.

aa73
01-28-2018, 04:14 PM
A lot of stupid procedures on the Boeing at AA. Do you UAL guys guard the throttles on Boeing?

I should have known this would turn into a dick measuring contest of who used to do it better and how much the AA Boeing way is retarded. What a surprise.

Guarding the throttles is a safety thing. There have been cases in the past where a throttle or two moved back and wasn’t caught right away. I’ve been taught to keep my hand on and/or guard the throttles ever since I went through multi engine training.

The guy asked a simple question and I provided a simple answer.

As long as it’s standard and safe WHO CARES which way is better? I’ve been on the 737 going on six years now and have never, ever had a problem with radio management... both as an FO and as a CA. If you guys are complaining about reaching an extra 3 inches to tune the #1 VHF for a frequency change.. or which radio should have Ramp vs ATC.... I got no words.

Good grief.

Name User
01-28-2018, 04:15 PM
I'm guessing the reason for keeping it on #1 instead of cross side tuning is to make it easier to go back to the last freq. It's a barrier.

But....on the Airbus....I think I would cringe to do it. I don't know about the 737. The S80 is irrelevant as you can't. Not sure about the big boys.

I fought the ramp on #2 for a while until I came to DFW and realized why. Guys it's not a big deal. It's not stupid, far from it. The LUS way of doing it was super easy and made "sense" until you got a call from ground and missed it. The LAA CAs are good about guarding the #1 while you call on #2 when you tell them what you are doing. The most important aspect is to keep both guys in the loop. In CLT and PHL it wasn't really a big deal, at our other hubs it can be especially DFW and LAX.

aa73
01-28-2018, 04:27 PM
I'm guessing the reason for keeping it on #1 instead of cross side tuning is to make it easier to go back to the last freq. It's a barrier.

But....on the Airbus....I think I would cringe to do it. I don't know about the 737. The S80 is irrelevant as you can't. Not sure about the big boys.

I fought the ramp on #2 for a while until I came to DFW and realized why. Guys it's not a big deal. It's not stupid, far from it. The LUS way of doing it was super easy and made "sense" until you got a call from ground and missed it. The LAA CAs are good about guarding the #1 while you call on #2 when you tell them what you are doing. The most important aspect is to keep both guys in the loop. In CLT and PHL it wasn't really a big deal, at our other hubs it can be especially DFW and LAX.

Bingo.... spot on.

Everyone is real quick to criticize AA procedures. Not realizing many of them were put in place for a good reason. (I’m not saying everything always makes sense but much of it does.)

As usual, much of the griping amounts to a reluctance to adapt to the new procedures while thinking the old ones were the best (happened here too when LAA adopted some LUS stuff.)

In DFW outbound as we taxi out both of us are on #2 monitoring Ramp. When we approach the spot for taxi we both switch to ground on #1. Inbound, the CA listens/monitors ground on 1 while the FO goes to Ramp on #2 to grab the spot number.

I really don’t get why this is such an issue.

Saabs
01-28-2018, 04:43 PM
Iíve AAsimilated and donít mind ramp on two. It works just fine. But I have heard of captains doing the throttle creep thing on the airbus. Thatís just funny.

EMBFlyer
01-28-2018, 04:43 PM
I'm guessing the reason for keeping it on #1 instead of cross side tuning is to make it easier to go back to the last freq. It's a barrier.

But....on the Airbus....I think I would cringe to do it. I don't know about the 737. The S80 is irrelevant as you can't. Not sure about the big boys.

I fought the ramp on #2 for a while until I came to DFW and realized why. Guys it's not a big deal. It's not stupid, far from it. The LUS way of doing it was super easy and made "sense" until you got a call from ground and missed it. The LAA CAs are good about guarding the #1 while you call on #2 when you tell them what you are doing. The most important aspect is to keep both guys in the loop. In CLT and PHL it wasn't really a big deal, at our other hubs it can be especially DFW and LAX.

Bingo.... spot on.

Everyone is real quick to criticize AA procedures. Not realizing many of them were put in place for a good reason. (Iím not saying everything always makes sense but much of it does.)

As usual, much of the griping amounts to a reluctance to adapt to the new procedures while thinking the old ones were the best (happened here too when LAA adopted some LUS stuff.)

In DFW outbound as we taxi out both of us are on #2 monitoring Ramp. When we approach the spot for taxi we both switch to ground on #1. Inbound, the CA listens/monitors ground on 1 while the FO goes to Ramp on #2 to grab the spot number.

I really donít get why this is such an issue.

Precisely right in both cases. I still don't know why this causes so much heartburn with guys that have been doing the LUS way for like a year or 2 prior to the switch.

Name User
01-28-2018, 04:50 PM
Iíve AAsimilated and donít mind ramp on two. It works just fine. But I have heard of captains doing the throttle creep thing on the airbus. Thatís just funny.

What is the "throttle creep"?

meyers9163
01-28-2018, 08:43 PM
DFW isnít the world. End of convo. Out bound itís absolutely ridiculous and not needed. One radio and everyone in the cockpit on one page is actually much safer.

Guarding throttles. Yeah 1970 727/707 carry overs. Letís just say things are changing and being in the school house those in charge understand how US Airways and AWA did things makes much more sense. Iím told major changes to the 737 soon. I.e Landing call outs, localizer and glide slope captured being called by PM. You know modern things vs the 1970 logic of AA.... Many good changes coming to bring these procedures to best practice vs the adopt and go. Needless to say itís needed and canít wait for it.

Saabs
01-28-2018, 10:17 PM
DFW isnít the world. End of convo. Out bound itís absolutely ridiculous and not needed. One radio and everyone in the cockpit on one page is actually much safer.

Guarding throttles. Yeah 1970 727/707 carry overs. Letís just say things are changing and being in the school house those in charge understand how US Airways and AWA did things makes much more sense. Iím told major changes to the 737 soon. I.e Landing call outs, localizer and glide slope captured being called by PM. You know modern things vs the 1970 logic of AA.... Many good changes coming to bring these procedures to best practice vs the adopt and go. Needless to say itís needed and canít wait for it.

So talking to ramp on 2 is a safety issue? I like it better that way. Captain listens to 1. Safe to me

Dolphinflyer
01-28-2018, 10:45 PM
Guarding throttles. Yeah 1970 727/707 carry overs. Let’s just say things are changing and being in the school house those in charge understand how US Airways and AWA did things makes much more sense.

I personally could care less about what procedure from what airline is used, just use the best, easiest and safest.

I do note that since this merger started, the group with the biggest procedures complainers here are the LUS/LAW posters like yourself. Lighten up dude. There are good and bad procedures and both sides, hopefully we'll slowly migrate to the best of both worlds.

I will highlight your comment about your group "making more sense" falls on it's face with your Terrain Engine Out charts and procedures which I understand won out over AA's since your responsible shop was unionized and the AA side wasn't.

Seriously, we went from specific tracks backed up by Navaids and MOCA's along with final safe holding altitudes to limited stuff of "turn right heading 270, Good Luck!". Great plan in places like BOG, SJO and Central America. I'm more concerned with stuff like that than #1 or #2 Comm.

As for DFW? I've avoided that place as much as possible over 25+ years, but to my amazement, I've found another CF of ramp organization, operations and functionality as well as claustrophobic terminal that I've learned to avoid more the DFW.

CLT.

sumwherelse
01-29-2018, 05:55 AM
I should have known this would turn into a dick measuring contest of who used to do it better and how much the AA Boeing way is retarded. What a surprise.

Guarding the throttles is a safety thing. There have been cases in the past where a throttle or two moved back and wasnít caught right away. Iíve been taught to keep my hand on and/or guard the throttles ever since I went through multi engine training.

The guy asked a simple question and I provided a simple answer.

As long as itís standard and safe WHO CARES which way is better? Iíve been on the 737 going on six years now and have never, ever had a problem with radio management... both as an FO and as a CA. If you guys are complaining about reaching an extra 3 inches to tune the #1 VHF for a frequency change.. or which radio should have Ramp vs ATC.... I got no words.

Good grief.

Sorry but do you not see how your hard headebness is just as frustrating? There is more than one way to skin a cat and your insistence that your wat is always better and safer is just old. Its not 1973 anymore.

SilverandSore
01-29-2018, 06:51 AM
The only thing I've noticed more of since we went to ramp on 2 is guys saying "can you repeat, you were blocked by someone on the other radio". Yeah, it's a safety thing...:rolleyes:

Mover
01-29-2018, 07:00 AM
I'm guessing the reason for keeping it on #1 instead of cross side tuning is to make it easier to go back to the last freq. It's a barrier.

But....on the Airbus....I think I would cringe to do it. I don't know about the 737. The S80 is irrelevant as you can't. Not sure about the big boys.

I fought the ramp on #2 for a while until I came to DFW and realized why. Guys it's not a big deal. It's not stupid, far from it. The LUS way of doing it was super easy and made "sense" until you got a call from ground and missed it. The LAA CAs are good about guarding the #1 while you call on #2 when you tell them what you are doing. The most important aspect is to keep both guys in the loop. In CLT and PHL it wasn't really a big deal, at our other hubs it can be especially DFW and LAX.

You know you can control #1 from the right side, right? I'm not sure how that would prevent you from going to the last frequency. Please explain.

aa73
01-29-2018, 07:22 AM
Sorry but do you not see how your hard headebness is just as frustrating? There is more than one way to skin a cat and your insistence that your wat is always better and safer is just old. Its not 1973 anymore.

I’m just as guilty for being hard headed on issues but please show me where and why you guys constantly associate our procedures with the 1970s?

Just curious because when I JS on other airlines I see cockpits run very much similar to AA’s, in fact there are procedures at other airlines that also seem silly but they are probably there for good reason.

If our procedures are so old fashioned and stale, you’d think AA would be leading the pack on incidents and accidents.... that’s just not the case, and in fact if you look at the ASAP events amongst all the airlines you’ll see that AA falls in the middle of the pack.

No, I still think this amounts to a majority of LUS/AWA guys complaining about having had to adopt & go with a lot of LAA stuff. I remember CAL pilots complaining about UAL procedures and NWA with Delta. Guess it’s just the nature of the beast, nobody likes change. Guess what, LAA procedures are perfectly safe and work fine.

I remember when we adopted the LUS “stable, target, sink” call out at 500’, I thought it was a bit silly but now am glad we do it... I think if you guys just open up your minds a bit and research the real reason as to why we do certain things, you’ll also eventually realize the benefits of it.

Surprise
01-29-2018, 07:31 AM
I watched ďAmerican MadeĒ on a deadhead the other day. I got a kick out the scene in the beginning where theyíre finishing up a checklist at TWA and it sounded almost identical to AAís 737 checklist. I donít know how accurate that is, and Iím not saying itís a bad thing, but it was kinda funny.

R57 relay
01-29-2018, 08:45 AM
You guys know the really good thing about what this thread turned into? If this is all we have to complain about then things are good!

Just a little LUS history. When I was hired at Piedmont, our ACARS was basic and we talked on company radio a lot. It always stayed in #2 unless it was needed for something else. As I remember, in cities like LGA where we used AA ramp, we would have ATC on 1 and ramp on 2. Over the years ACARS got better and we used company freq. less often.

The way LUS used radios for ATC/ramp probably evolved for our biggest hubs-CLT and PIT. There you basically have a hand off to ramp, and using #1 worked better. Once you were handed off if you had to contact ops, it was on #2. Now if you are waiting for a gate in CLT and have to call ops to check on it, it will be on #1. Who's on first? We adapted our radio setup for what was logical for that airport, without the need to be told how it had to be done.

Things change and AA decided that it needed to be standardized. I'm pretty sure that came from LAA guys coming to former LUS bases and throwing a fit to someone. So be it, things change and we will adapt and move on.

BTW, CLT wasn't always as much of a mess. Until a few years ago(hmm, what did that coincide with?) we only had two frequencies, inbound and outbound.

Now, that said, having the captain tell the F/As to be seated for takeoff IS stupid.

:)

Hotel Pen
01-29-2018, 08:56 AM
Iím just as guilty for being hard headed on issues but please show me where and why you guys constantly associate our procedures with the 1970s?

Just curious because when I JS on other airlines I see cockpits run very much similar to AAís, in fact there are procedures at other airlines that also seem silly but they are probably there for good reason.

If our procedures are so old fashioned and stale, youíd think AA would be leading the pack on incidents and accidents.... thatís just not the case, and in fact if you look at the ASAP events amongst all the airlines youíll see that AA falls in the middle of the pack.

No, I still think this amounts to a majority of LUS/AWA guys complaining about having had to adopt & go with a lot of LAA stuff. I remember CAL pilots complaining about UAL procedures and NWA with Delta. Guess itís just the nature of the beast, nobody likes change. Guess what, LAA procedures are perfectly safe and work fine.

I remember when we adopted the LUS ďstable, target, sinkĒ call out at 500í, I thought it was a bit silly but now am glad we do it... I think if you guys just open up your minds a bit and research the real reason as to why we do certain things, youíll also eventually realize the benefits of it.
Come on, guarding the throttles is stupid though, the other pilot already has their hands on the throttles right?

PRS Guitars
01-29-2018, 10:43 AM
The only thing I've noticed more of since we went to ramp on 2 is guys saying "can you repeat, you were blocked by someone on the other radio". Yeah, it's a safety thing...:rolleyes:

You can turn the volume down or off on the other radio. I think itís a good way to run the radios, yes Iím LUS.

Sliceback
01-29-2018, 10:55 AM
Applicants - ďis it really that bad at AA? I read the posts and wonder about going there.Ē

Then they get hired - ďthank goodness I didnít take the posts too seriously. Itís much better than they make it out to be.Ē

Itís been said multiple times.

As R57 said - itís so bad weíre arguing about stuff that is really, really, really important. :-/

sumwherelse
01-29-2018, 10:57 AM
Iím just as guilty for being hard headed on issues but please show me where and why you guys constantly associate our procedures with the 1970s?

Just curious because when I JS on other airlines I see cockpits run very much similar to AAís, in fact there are procedures at other airlines that also seem silly but they are probably there for good reason.

If our procedures are so old fashioned and stale, youíd think AA would be leading the pack on incidents and accidents.... thatís just not the case, and in fact if you look at the ASAP events amongst all the airlines youíll see that AA falls in the middle of the pack.

No, I still think this amounts to a majority of LUS/AWA guys complaining about having had to adopt & go with a lot of LAA stuff. I remember CAL pilots complaining about UAL procedures and NWA with Delta. Guess itís just the nature of the beast, nobody likes change. Guess what, LAA procedures are perfectly safe and work fine.

I remember when we adopted the LUS ďstable, target, sinkĒ call out at 500í, I thought it was a bit silly but now am glad we do it... I think if you guys just open up your minds a bit and research the real reason as to why we do certain things, youíll also eventually realize the benefits of it.

Ditto to you man. Check out your screen name and maybe you will figure out where my 1973 reference came from!

Name User
01-29-2018, 11:15 AM
Ditto to you man. Check out your screen name and maybe you will figure out where my 1973 reference came from!

Maybe he's on the 737

Name User
01-29-2018, 11:18 AM
You know you can control #1 from the right side, right? I'm not sure how that would prevent you from going to the last frequency. Please explain.

It doesn't prevent you as long as you swap it back over before retuning it otherwise I think you lose the previously assigned freq IIRC.

sumwherelse
01-29-2018, 01:45 PM
Maybe he's on the 737

Maybe he is.

PRS Guitars
01-29-2018, 02:03 PM
Maybe he's on the 737

Iím guessing born in 73, a good year to be born:cool:

aa73
01-29-2018, 02:05 PM
It’s just a nice random number :-)

Mover
01-30-2018, 04:55 AM
It doesn't prevent you as long as you swap it back over before retuning it otherwise I think you lose the previously assigned freq IIRC.

No, you don't. At least not on the 737NG.

mainlineAF
01-30-2018, 05:18 AM
You boys are wild. Iíll talk to ramp on Zach Morrisí cell phone for the money we make.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180130/a46e22d648602a1ba35deb068dd9bf9b.jpg

Al Czervik
01-30-2018, 10:51 AM
You boys are wild. Iíll talk to ramp on Zach Morrisí cell phone for the money we make.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180130/a46e22d648602a1ba35deb068dd9bf9b.jpg

He may have had a lame phone, but he also had Kelly Kapowski.

Long Haul
01-30-2018, 12:08 PM
I do it most of the time. Not that hard to hit VHF1, switch the freq, then hit VHF2. Most captains never even notice.

Absolutely no reason to reach across when there's a perfectly good panel right there.

You might want to mention it. I was using the R/H RTP for VHF L once without briefing it, and the captain, seeing the offside tuning light, reached over and switched frequencies on me. I didn't notice it so we were lost com for a few minutes.

450knotOffice
01-30-2018, 05:19 PM
You might want to mention it. I was using the R/H RTP for VHF L once without briefing it, and the captain, seeing the offside tuning light, reached over and switched frequencies on me. I didn't notice it so we were lost com for a few minutes.

LOL! Woops! :p

Mover
01-30-2018, 05:51 PM
You boys are wild. Iíll talk to ramp on Zach Morrisí cell phone for the money we make.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180130/a46e22d648602a1ba35deb068dd9bf9b.jpg

Pipe down, regional Captain. :p

bigscrillywilli
01-30-2018, 06:13 PM
Iíll just say my $.02.......this ridiculous procedure is tailored to 3 maybe 4 LAA hub operations. All other airports it is not necessary to switch coms to talk to ramp. It is much less distraction and heads-down time to hit one button by the FO after landing. But such is life.......the world revolves around the Master-Base and whatever they can do to make the simplest of tasks more complicated.

What about taking a re-route on #2 radio?? ATC on VHF#1 only! 🤔

Saabs
01-30-2018, 06:24 PM
Iíll just say my $.02.......this ridiculous procedure is tailored to 3 maybe 4 LAA hub operations. All other airports it is not necessary to switch coms to talk to ramp. It is much less distraction and heads-down time to hit one button by the FO after landing. But such is life.......the world revolves around the Master-Base and whatever they can do to make the simplest of tasks more complicated.

What about taking a re-route on #2 radio?? ATC on VHF#1 only! 🤔
Yeah youíll get over it. It applies to literally maybe .02% of your time at work.

450knotOffice
01-30-2018, 07:23 PM
Iíll just say my $.02.......this ridiculous procedure is tailored to 3 maybe 4 LAA hub operations. All other airports it is not necessary to switch coms to talk to ramp. It is much less distraction and heads-down time to hit one button by the FO after landing. But such is life.......the world revolves around the Master-Base and whatever they can do to make the simplest of tasks more complicated.

What about taking a re-route on #2 radio?? ATC on VHF#1 only! 🤔

I asked around to see if it's just AA and Eagle that does this. Welp, turns out it's actually pretty common. It's NOT just AA. It's a whole BUNCH of airlines. Soooo....

Beyond that. Yea. Who cares? I mean...Really.

If the powers that be said I had to call Ramp on number three starting tomorrow, I'd just shrug and do it.

Not important in the grand scheme of things.:rolleyes:

mainlineAF
01-31-2018, 04:03 AM
Iíll just say my $.02.......this ridiculous procedure is tailored to 3 maybe 4 LAA hub operations. All other airports it is not necessary to switch coms to talk to ramp. It is much less distraction and heads-down time to hit one button by the FO after landing. But such is life.......the world revolves around the Master-Base and whatever they can do to make the simplest of tasks more complicated.



What about taking a re-route on #2 radio?? ATC on VHF#1 only! [emoji848]



Who cares? I actually like it better than the old way.

EMBFlyer
01-31-2018, 05:47 AM
I asked around to see if it's just AA and Eagle that does this. Welp, turns out it's actually pretty common. It's NOT just AA. It's a whole BUNCH of airlines. Soooo....

Beyond that. Yea. Who cares? I mean...Really.

If the powers that be said I had to call Ramp on number three starting tomorrow, I'd just shrug and do it.

Not important in the grand scheme of things.:rolleyes:

Been saying that since this procedure came out. Doesn't matter.

SilverandSore
01-31-2018, 08:52 AM
You can turn the volume down or off on the other radio. I think itís a good way to run the radios, yes Iím LUS.

Iím talking about other aircraft on ramp. I donít really have an issue with it but there does seem to be more radio chatter and I hear that one quite a bit.

mainlineAF
01-31-2018, 09:44 AM
Pipe down, regional Captain. :p



[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

SheepDogg
02-01-2018, 06:56 AM
Two points:

First, when everybody flies with different people all the time, standardization establishes normal expectations and reduces the potential for confusion. The particular way of doing it is not as important as is doing it the same way all the time. Habits and muscle memory are usually more efficient than having to stop and look and think before acting.

Second, have you considered what works and what doesn't in an Emergency Power situation? It's possible that the standard way or preferred way is actually the preferred way or even the only way if functionality is lost during an abnormal event.



.



This reasoning is the most important answer to the question, "Why do we do it that way?" Whatever "way" is done, it's important that everyone does it the same way. I personally, don't like the cross tuning practice. I have had several experiences where the FO was cross tuning and forget (or whatever) and tuned out #1 VHF via the Crosstuned #2 to Ops/Ramp in preparation for landing. The threat of a NORDO event or worse, is not worth the convenience.

filejw
02-01-2018, 08:27 AM
Come on, guarding the throttles is stupid though, the other pilot already has their hands on the throttles right?

Stupid ??? Twice in the last five years I had someone try to close the throttles at 100' (744) so my old school hands below the throttles may have save some embarrassment. One was on an OE and the other guy had not been flying much .

drinksonme
02-01-2018, 09:09 AM
And can someone please, PLEASE, tell the 737 LAA folks coming into PHX that they DONT HAVE TO CALL RAMP ďON THE GROUNDĒ and when they enter the ramp. Unlike the totally messed up LAA bases, PHX ground is smart enough to coordinate entry without ramp. All ramp does is handle departure traffic push backs. Thatís all. STOP PLEASE! Read the damn 10-7ís

partypilot1
02-01-2018, 09:21 AM
Come on, guarding the throttles is stupid though, the other pilot already has their hands on the throttles right?

It could be stupid and it can be negative transfer, depending on the aircraft. Itís not a good idea on my aircraft due to the snatch system activation on TR fail. The PF slides the power up into the TO detent and keeps the hand either on top of the levers or in front in preparation for the abort.

Engines which are electronically controlled are Ďelectronically controlledí. The pilot communicates through the power lever that TO thrust is desired, the computer does the rest (tweaking/monitoring), we monitor the results.

Aircraft which are mechanically controlled, the tweaking is done by one of the operators.

If the takeoff brief is communicated properly, with a properly trained crew and the aircraft has modern systems then yes, there would be no need to Ďguard the throttlesí

partypilot1
02-01-2018, 09:36 AM
Stupid ??? Twice in the last five years I had someone try to close the throttles at 100' (744) so my old school hands below the throttles may have save some embarrassment. One was on an OE and the other guy had not been flying much .

Kinda sounds like a training or aircraft issue and the Ďguarding of the throttlesí is the control method. I hope it was reported so root cause analysis can dig deeper.

filejw
02-01-2018, 11:12 AM
Kinda sounds like a training or aircraft issue and the Ďguarding of the throttlesí is the control method. I hope it was reported so root cause analysis can dig deeper.

Well the guy on OE was a Capt with say 5000 hrs on the 200 model and 1500 hrs on an A330 and had made 2 grade a landings . A little crosswind with some gust and that was his answer. My knuckles paid for it but we didnít drive the wheels up threw the wings .
The fellow was an FO who I would call a magenta line type . On reserve went for landings almost every 90 days , I just caulked it up to not keeping his skills up . Knew

Thedude
02-01-2018, 07:32 PM
And can someone please, PLEASE, tell the 737 LAA folks coming into PHX that they DONT HAVE TO CALL RAMP “ON THE GROUND” and when they enter the ramp. Unlike the totally messed up LAA bases, PHX ground is smart enough to coordinate entry without ramp. All ramp does is handle departure traffic push backs. That’s all. STOP PLEASE! Read the damn 10-7’s

How many yrs did you have to call the ramp in PHX?
I will admit I was caught off guard awhile back that I no longer had to call. Esp for us that go though PHX just a couple of times per year.

mainlineAF
02-02-2018, 01:36 AM
Well the guy on OE was a Capt with say 5000 hrs on the 200 model and 1500 hrs on an A330 and had made 2 grade a landings . A little crosswind with some gust and that was his answer. My knuckles paid for it but we didnít drive the wheels up threw the wings .

The fellow was an FO who I would call a magenta line type . On reserve went for landings almost every 90 days , I just caulked it up to not keeping his skills up . Knew



Theyíre talking about on takeoff, not landing.

TQ Nola
02-03-2018, 12:50 PM
Come on, guarding the throttles is stupid though, the other pilot already has their hands on the throttles right?

VOL 1 tells me to guard the throttles. I'm not sure where you're going by calling a written procedure 'stupid.'

EMBFlyer
02-03-2018, 01:30 PM
And just to go back the original point of this thread (shocking, I know), my Ground School instructor today confirmed that we DO NOT offside tune in the 737.

mainlineAF
02-03-2018, 03:02 PM
Meanwhile Iím over not knowing wtf offside tuning is. rj for life fam

Al Czervik
02-03-2018, 03:39 PM
And just to go back the original point of this thread (shocking, I know), my Ground School instructor today confirmed that we DO NOT offside tune in the 737.

Is that a ďtechnique?Ē

Sliceback
02-03-2018, 07:18 PM
Meanwhile Iím over not knowing wtf offside tuning is. rj for life fam

The left VHF radio head can tune the right VHF and the right VHF head can tune the left VHF radio.

So instead of having to reach allll the waaaaay across the console the FO can offside tune by dropping his hand to the right (#2) VHF, didolsybthe # 1 VHF, tune the new frequency, switch frequencies, and then put the #2 radio control back on #2.

Or you can reach alll the waaay across the console and do it the way itís been done for decades. But heaven help you if you choose the method that the other guy hates. I use both but generally donít cross tune. AB fleet does, Boeing fleets donít. Basically LUS vs LAA fleet split. I donít think the 757/767 can cross tune. If they can Iíve forgotten that.

Thedude
02-03-2018, 10:15 PM
VOL 1 tells me to guard the throttles. I'm not sure where you're going by calling a written procedure 'stupid.'

As an f/o, please tell me you are not guarding the throttles on the 777.

450knotOffice
02-03-2018, 11:06 PM
As an f/o, please tell me you are not guarding the throttles on the 777.

Iíve had guys ďguardĒ the thrustlevers on the Airbus on more than one occasion. Lol.

I guess some habits never die.:rolleyes:

Sliceback
02-04-2018, 04:59 AM
If you Ďguardí the throttles with your hand on the throttle console, where the throttle levers travel, youíll stop doing that after your first abort. Story and advice by FO years ago. It only pinched the chit out of his hand with minor bleeding.

sumwherelse
02-04-2018, 06:06 AM
If you Ďguardí the throttles with your hand on the throttle console, where the throttle levers travel, youíll stop doing that after your first abort. Story and advice by FO years ago. It only pinched the chit out of his hand with minor bleeding.

I jumpseated on an Airbus recently where the Capt had his hand down by the ignition switch below about 5000ft. I couldnít figure out what the heck he was doing. After reading this thread I have figured it out. Why the heck do you need to guard the THRUST LEVERS on an Airbus??? I guess thatís the way weíve always done it. Doesnít matter if it makes sense or not.

nimslow
02-04-2018, 08:22 AM
If you Ďguardí the throttles with your hand on the throttle console, where the throttle levers travel, youíll stop doing that after your first abort. Story and advice by FO years ago. It only pinched the chit out of his hand with minor bleeding.

My very first sim p on the 80 made sure I was aware of that fact as well.

This statement is in the Volume 1 for at least three aircraft in our fleet, that I'm aware of.

"On all takeoffs and landings, when below 1000 feet AFL, the pilot monitoring will be in a position to immediately assume aircraft control, if necessary."

Thats where "guarding" the flight controls, including the thrust levers comes from.

EMBFlyer
02-04-2018, 09:30 AM
Is that a ďtechnique?Ē

Not that I know of. I'm still only in Ground School, but the Ground School Instructor said that's not done on this airplane.

And our Vol 1 says to "guard" the controls below 1000'. I do it and don't protest. Granted, my guarding hand in well below the throttles themselves for reasons Slice mentioned.

Sliceback
02-04-2018, 03:53 PM
And then there are the guys guarded the controls about two inches away.

IMO awareness is better than proximity.

Al Czervik
02-04-2018, 05:26 PM
And then there are the guys guarded the controls about two inches away.

IMO awareness is better than proximity.

Why donít we do it on the 777/787?

Sliceback
02-04-2018, 05:49 PM
Why donít we do it on the 777/787?

The control guard crazies will ALWAYS guard the controls inches away. It's funny to watch. I know this is only my second flight but please...

He had to have his fingers open otherwise the yoke might have rapped his knuckles. Imagine reaching for a beer and being inches away from grabbing the mug. That was the picture in the corner of my eye, if I dropped the mug he'd have caught it. I was scared for him.

cactusmike
02-05-2018, 09:48 PM
When you have autothrust then guarding the throttles is just unnecessary. In 28000 hours Iíve never had a throttle or thrust lever come back on its own. In the Convair or the DC 3 (I flew both) there may have been a friction lock but even then it was never an issue.

I jumpseat a lot and seeing guys with their hands down by the fuel control cutoffs just freaks the ****e out of me. Your hand is down by the parts of the jet that cuts the fuel off. Not a good place in my opinion.

Iíve been a captain for a really long time. My hands sit right on my thighs when the other guy is flying. If I have to intervene then itís never been a problem to quickly place my hands on the controls. Thatís the intent of FM part 1. The things that are being done now are just techniques that have been turned into pseudo SOPs. Iíve seen that here more often than not.

TonyC
02-05-2018, 10:05 PM
When you have autothrust then guarding the throttles is just unnecessary. In 28000 hours I’ve never had a throttle or thrust lever come back on its own.




Bucharest, A310 Departure, Autothrottle malfunction, 128 dead

Skip ahead to 12:00

pN41LvuSz10






.

Dolphinflyer
02-05-2018, 11:08 PM
issue.

I jumpseat a lot and seeing guys with their hands down by the fuel control cutoffs just freaks the ****e out of me. Your hand is down by the parts of the jet that cuts the fuel off. Not a good place in my opinion.


So like in 28,000 hours, like how many engines have been shut off by guys placing their hands near the fuel control shutoffs?

Not a proponent either way, some good numbers analysis on the best practice would help.

I'll just collect he W2 and save the $$$ in Midol expenses that some of you seem to rack up 30 days a month. Seriously, you guys get bent out of shape on this crap yet ignore the terrain EO and escape BS?

Al Czervik
02-06-2018, 03:34 AM
Bucharest, A310 Departure, Autothrottle malfunction, 128 dead

Skip ahead to 12:00

pN41LvuSz10






.

Big difference. Nobody was watching anything in that case.

Sliceback
02-06-2018, 05:44 AM
Iíve had the throttles, auto throttles engaged, go to idle twice. It tends to focus your attention.

I donít understand resting your hand on, or near, the fuel shut offs.

Like you, at least in this situation, I will admit to being a leg man.

Saabs
02-06-2018, 06:20 AM
Bucharest, A310 Departure, Autothrottle malfunction, 128 dead

Skip ahead to 12:00

pN41LvuSz10






.

Thatís autothrottles and doesnít apply to the airbus we have as it doesnít have that system.

It applies to the Boeing I believe which is more of the debate on this thread.

sumwherelse
02-06-2018, 07:47 AM
Thatís autothrottles and doesnít apply to the airbus we have as it doesnít have that system.

It applies to the Boeing I believe which is more of the debate on this thread.

Until airbus guys start guarding thrust levers which I have seen. Like someone said move your damn hands away from the shutoff switch there is no need to be there. NONE!!!

drinksonme
02-06-2018, 08:32 AM
I am not knocking AA (more so
personalities in training at AA) when it comes to the Airbus. Bottom line LAW and LUS operated the plane much much longer then AA. I have done training in PHX, CLT, and DFW.

By far, some of the stuff AA instructors have tried to teach (and 99% of is their technique they are teaching as standard) is way way way out to lunch. Iíve had some really nice guys in DFW, but they are trying to push ideas they have as the wAAy it should be done. Many of them make no sense. I am glad the new AA kept the LUS style of operating the bus. I starting to see though, an AA creep into the training and some of it is a major negative transfer of learning

TonyC
02-06-2018, 10:32 AM
Big difference. Nobody was watching anything in that case.






Thatís autothrottles and doesnít apply to the airbus we have as it doesnít have that system.

It applies to the Boeing I believe which is more of the debate on this thread.




It was posted as a counterexample to cactusmike's "never" statement.

We can fly airplanes, or watch airplanes fly, or NOT watch as airplanes fly ... or not.






.

mainlineAF
02-06-2018, 10:39 AM
The left VHF radio head can tune the right VHF and the right VHF head can tune the left VHF radio.



So instead of having to reach allll the waaaaay across the console the FO can offside tune by dropping his hand to the right (#2) VHF, didolsybthe # 1 VHF, tune the new frequency, switch frequencies, and then put the #2 radio control back on #2.



Or you can reach alll the waaay across the console and do it the way itís been done for decades. But heaven help you if you choose the method that the other guy hates. I use both but generally donít cross tune. AB fleet does, Boeing fleets donít. Basically LUS vs LAA fleet split. I donít think the 757/767 can cross tune. If they can Iíve forgotten that.



Hmm. Why is that even an issue? I constantly tune the offside radio from my mcdu on the rj.

Name User
02-06-2018, 01:28 PM
I am not knocking AA (more so
personalities in training at AA) when it comes to the Airbus. Bottom line LAW and LUS operated the plane much much longer then AA. I have done training in PHX, CLT, and DFW.

By far, some of the stuff AA instructors have tried to teach (and 99% of is their technique they are teaching as standard) is way way way out to lunch. Iíve had some really nice guys in DFW, but they are trying to push ideas they have as the wAAy it should be done. Many of them make no sense. I am glad the new AA kept the LUS style of operating the bus. I starting to see though, an AA creep into the training and some of it is a major negative transfer of learning
Examples? Just curious.

EMBFlyer
02-06-2018, 02:13 PM
I am not knocking AA (more so
personalities in training at AA) when it comes to the Airbus. Bottom line LAW and LUS operated the plane much much longer then AA. I have done training in PHX, CLT, and DFW.

By far, some of the stuff AA instructors have tried to teach (and 99% of is their technique they are teaching as standard) is way way way out to lunch. Iíve had some really nice guys in DFW, but they are trying to push ideas they have as the wAAy it should be done. Many of them make no sense. I am glad the new AA kept the LUS style of operating the bus. I starting to see though, an AA creep into the training and some of it is a major negative transfer of learning

Are you debriefing this through the APA website? They take those debriefs very seriously over at the Flight Academy.

Sliceback
02-06-2018, 05:01 PM
The location of the VHF radios makes the ergonomics between Boeing and Airbus different.

On the AB the VHF radios are by the forward edge of the throttle quadrant. On the Boeing the VHFís radios are by the trailing edge of the throttle quadrant.

EMBFlyer
02-06-2018, 06:40 PM
The location of the VHF radios makes the ergonomics between Boeing and Airbus different.

On the AB the VHF radios are by the forward edge of the throttle quadrant. On the Boeing the VHFís radios are by the trailing edge of the throttle quadrant.

Exactly. I don't know why you'd offside tune in a 737 when the radio heads themselves are just a few inches apart.

cactusmike
02-06-2018, 07:08 PM
So like in 28,000 hours, like how many engines have been shut off by guys placing their hands near the fuel control shutoffs?

Not a proponent either way, some good numbers analysis on the best practice would help.

I'll just collect he W2 and save the $$$ in Midol expenses that some of you seem to rack up 30 days a month. Seriously, you guys get bent out of shape on this crap yet ignore the terrain EO and escape BS?



Zero, because I’ve never seen it before AA.

Although, Delta did it on a departure out of LAX on a 767 a long time ago. They put the guards around the cutoff switches after that.

I just do what they want, sometimes I don’t understand why they want me to do it, but I do it. And it still freaks me out when people have their hands near stuff that can make bad things happen.

I’m not sure what your issue is with the depress routes or the EO. We got those after the Airways merger and after a few sim sessions it made sense. I used to do it on the way down to MEX or GDL just to figure it out.

Dolphinflyer
02-06-2018, 09:10 PM
CM,

On later reflection, my last paragraph was over the top and would have deleted it if possible. Legal CYA is probably what drove the changes.

I'll probably get banned from the internet for admitting I was wrong.

Sliceback
02-07-2018, 06:59 AM
Exactly. I don't know why you'd offside tune in a 737 when the radio heads themselves are just a few inches apart.

You can. Thereís just not of a reason for it.

On the AB, switching to departure after T.O. or a g/a, or ground clearing the runway, the throttle quadrant/VHF radio location is more of an issue if the CA has his hands on the little black things.

R57 relay
02-07-2018, 07:16 AM
Zero, because Iíve never seen it before AA.

Although, Delta did it on a departure out of LAX on a 767 a long time ago. They put the guards around the cutoff switches after that.

I just do what they want, sometimes I donít understand why they want me to do it, but I do it. And it still freaks me out when people have their hands near stuff that can make bad things happen.

Iím not sure what your issue is with the depress routes or the EO. We got those after the Airways merger and after a few sim sessions it made sense. I used to do it on the way down to MEX or GDL just to figure it out.

Sort of along those lines...I do not like guys guarding the flap handle, like when we are accelerating or slowing. I had a F/O go flaps up on me on a heavy 321, out of PHX, way too slow.

PRS Guitars
02-07-2018, 12:23 PM
Sort of along those lines...I do not like guys guarding the flap handle, like when we are accelerating or slowing. I had a F/O go flaps up on me on a heavy 321, out of PHX, way too slow.

Just flew with a Capt that did this, I wouldn’t call it guarding, more like leaning over with his hand on the flaps waiting for (maybe pimping) me to call “Flaps up”...

R57 relay
02-07-2018, 12:29 PM
Just flew with a Capt that did this, I wouldnít call it guarding, more like leaning over with his hand on the flaps waiting for (maybe pimping) me to call ďFlaps upĒ...

One of my pet peeves, especially after that episode.

Saabs
02-07-2018, 12:31 PM
At least on the bus you canít really tell if the captain is guarding the stick as you canít really see it. I have had a guy ride the rudders in case something happens. I hated it as it made it feel weird and different.

sumwherelse
02-07-2018, 01:31 PM
At least on the bus you canít really tell if the captain is guarding the stick as you canít really see it. I have had a guy ride the rudders in case something happens. I hated it as it made it feel weird and different.

Thereís lots of rudder riders. Drives me nuts! Get your damn feet off the rudders so I can steer you idiot!!!!

Mover
02-07-2018, 01:39 PM
Meanwhile the company has decided to start nickle and diming us on overnight hotels.

Priorities...

450knotOffice
02-07-2018, 04:14 PM
There are definitely a few Bus Captains who ride the rudder pedals during MY takeoff. Itís irritating to me for the stated reason - I keep feeling THEIR feet acting against mine. First time I felt it, I thought maybe there might have been some sort of rudder pedal malfunction, so I mentioned it after I pulled it off. Nope. He says, sorry, that was me following you up on the rudders. I thought to myself ďDude. Whoís steering here? You? Or me?Ē, as I could barely conceal a huge eyeroll on my part.

For the Flap Lever guys who lean in and put their hand on it when the speed is stil about 5 knots shy of the retract speed, I see it, I know theyíre there, and yet I just wait. I wait until the plane is maybe 3-5 knots ABOVE the minimum flap retract speed to call Flaps Up, After Takeoff Checklist. Just for them.
In all fairness though, thatís purely a personality thing with them. All airlines have those types.

sumwherelse
02-07-2018, 06:30 PM
There are definitely a few Bus Captains who ride the rudder pedals during MY takeoff. Itís irritating to me for the stated reason - I keep feeling THEIR feet acting against mine. First time I felt it, I thought maybe there might have been some sort of rudder pedal malfunction, so I mentioned it after I pulled it off. Nope. He says, sorry, that was me following you up on the rudders. I thought to myself ďDude. Whoís steering here? You? Or me?Ē, as I could barely conceal a huge eyeroll on my part.

For the Flap Lever guys who lean in and put their hand on it when the speed is stil about 5 knots shy of the retract speed, I see it, I know theyíre there, and yet I just wait. I wait until the plane is maybe 3-5 knots ABOVE the minimum flap retract speed to call Flaps Up, After Takeoff Checklist. Just for them.
In all fairness though, thatís purely a personality thing with them. All airlines have those types.

The flap thing is an annoying personality. The rudder riding is dangerous!!! More then once I thought I had a stick rudder or something. Havenít figured out a way to address that yet.

450knotOffice
02-07-2018, 07:10 PM
15 years as a captain at my previous employer, and I NEVER rode the rudder pedals when the FOís were flying. Had a couple do it to me, and I told them to stay OFF the pedals. Period.

Cheddar
02-08-2018, 03:09 AM
The rudder riding is dangerous!!! More then once I thought I had a stick rudder or something. Havenít figured out a way to address that yet.


ďYour airplane.Ē

But, if you want to be nice you can say ďdo you want to fly?Ē Either way, I maintain control until thereís a ďsorryĒ or I hear ďmy airplane.Ē It does two things - letís the other person know they are heavy footed (or handed if they Ďfollowí you on the yoke) and/or gives the other person the ability to address something you may not be seeing.

We had a guy at my squadron that was notorious for Ďhelpingí out. Believe me, there are ways I wonít admit to in order to prevent them from doing it with you again. At the airline - Iím muuuuch nicer [emoji854]



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