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View Full Version : Big ATI contract meeting


midnightshuttle
01-31-2018, 02:51 PM
All the senior guys here were telling me that we would get a contract this wk for being *****s over the holidays!

So, how did that work for ya?

B###H Slap S m A c K.


motorclutch
01-31-2018, 04:10 PM
Lol. Yeah I got the same word. However....my sources tell me it’s gone south again. Where is Tom when u need a suck ass deal.

hackerbyday
02-01-2018, 01:39 PM
All the senior guys here were telling me that we would get a contract this wk for being *****s over the holidays!

So, how did that work for ya?

B###H Slap S m A c K.

You think being *****s for a couple months is going to get you a great contract? I’m sure they figure since you’ll bend over for that they can go ahead and drive it home now.


midnightshuttle
02-01-2018, 04:15 PM
No not I

Those are the beliefs of the legacy group. As stated its Stockholm syndrome

airbus300
02-02-2018, 02:11 PM
YahooFINANCE
ATI Reaches Tentative Agreement with Pilots’ Union
Business Wire
Business WireFebruary 2, 2018
WILMINGTON, Ohio--(BUSINESS WIRE)--

Air Transport Services Group, Inc. (ATSG) said today that its subsidiary, Air Transport International, Inc., has reached a tentative agreement to amend the collective bargaining agreement with its pilots group, currently numbering more than 220 flight crew members.

ATI’s pilots are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). ATI and ALPA have been negotiating amendments to the current collective bargaining agreement since it became amendable in May 2014. The tentative amended agreement would extend for four years from the date of ratification by the ATI pilots.


Terms of the tentative amended agreement were not disclosed, but will be presented to the ATI pilot group prior to holding a ratification vote. The vote is expected to be completed prior to the end of March.

About Air Transport Services Group, Inc. (ATSG)

ATSG is a leading provider of aircraft leasing and air cargo transportation and related services to domestic and foreign air carriers and other companies that outsource their air cargo lift requirements. Through its principal subsidiaries, including two airlines with separate and distinct U.S. FAA Part 121 Air Carrier certificates, ATSG provides aircraft leasing, air cargo lift, aircraft maintenance services and airport ground services. ATSG's subsidiaries include ABX Air, Inc.; Airborne Global Solutions, Inc.; Air Transport International, Inc.; Cargo Aircraft Management, Inc.; and Airborne Maintenance and Engineering Services, Inc. including its division, Pemco World Air Services, Inc.

goinaround
02-02-2018, 02:42 PM
Welp. That would make sense. I guess they’ll be setting the bar for ABX. Can’t wait to see this......

midnightshuttle
02-02-2018, 04:50 PM
No retro
No signing bonus
“No Vote”

Just barely over Kalitta with an increase in rig by 3-4hr and pay rate the rest

Scheduling ???

Business OR BETTER ??

Scale wide cola, think not

abxflyr
02-02-2018, 05:04 PM
It was only a matter of time before news like this comes out. It happens to be ATI at this go round. Before everyone, particularly ABX pilots, but it's inclusive to all 1224 pilots, jumps off the deep end speculating whether or not the ATI negotiations committee secured a quality agreement for their group take a moment of pause.

Time will tell all...

Hopefully they have an A+ deal on the table, if not don't be too quickly to pull the trigger on these guys. The group as a whole may in fact vote it down if required; that in itself can be a message to their company and the industry as a whole.

Congrats if it's good....time will tell all.

Wings1856
02-02-2018, 05:37 PM
All the senior guys here were telling me that we would get a contract this wk for being *****s over the holidays!

So, how did that work for ya?

B###H Slap S m A c K.

I find it interesting that majority making comments on this contract don't even work for ATI. As a matter of fact, that seems to be the case overall...in my observation. The hidden profane language also shows what kind of mind some may have (eg. midnightshuttle). Sorry, Another observation. Comment on your own contracts. Realize we are all fighting for a better life and maybe look in the mirror occasionally.

Globemaster2827
02-02-2018, 05:41 PM
No retro
No signing bonus
“No Vote”

Just barely over Kalitta with an increase in rig by 3-4hr and pay rate the rest

Scheduling ???

Business OR BETTER ??

Scale wide cola, think not

Any word on the Retirement? That's a HUGE difference between where K4 is because they get very little there... K4's rate +10% with good work rules and a 15% direct contribution into a 401k would be huge for all of ACMI. K4's rate with their work rules and retirement would be a joke...

742Dash
02-02-2018, 05:55 PM
I find it interesting that majority making comments on this contract don't even work for ATI.

As it has been the case since the days of CompuServe. The permanently angry can always be counted on to call upon others to make sacrifices and fall on their swords.

Globemaster2827
02-02-2018, 06:09 PM
It was only a matter of time before news like this comes out. It happens to be ATI at this go round. Before everyone, particularly ABX pilots, but it's inclusive to all 1224 pilots, jumps off the deep end speculating whether or not the ATI negotiations committee secured a quality agreement for their group take a moment of pause.

Time will tell all...

Hopefully they have an A+ deal on the table, if not don't be too quickly to pull the trigger on these guys. The group as a whole may in fact vote it down if required; that in itself can be a message to their company and the industry as a whole.

Congrats if it's good....time will tell all.
I know. What if the deal is good? Maybe Bezos wants stability in his labor market. I think we need to hold all complaints until we read it as opposed to assuming that the ATI leadership are idiots.

kolt66
02-02-2018, 07:32 PM
I'm surprised no on here has provided the TA details yet.

Sdnumber2
02-02-2018, 07:38 PM
No retro
No signing bonus
“No Vote”

Just barely over Kalitta with an increase in rig by 3-4hr and pay rate the rest

Scheduling ???

Business OR BETTER ??

Scale wide cola, think not

We all know where you came from. Kalitta would love to have you!!!
Good luck and get lost

Wings1856
02-02-2018, 07:41 PM
It was only a matter of time before news like this comes out. It happens to be ATI at this go round. Before everyone, particularly ABX pilots, but it's inclusive to all 1224 pilots, jumps off the deep end speculating whether or not the ATI negotiations committee secured a quality agreement for their group take a moment of pause.

Time will tell all...

Hopefully they have an A+ deal on the table, if not don't be too quickly to pull the trigger on these guys. The group as a whole may in fact vote it down if required; that in itself can be a message to their company and the industry as a whole.

Congrats if it's good....time will tell all.

Agreed ABXflyr, I think we're done being at the bottom, kudos.

nitefr8dog
02-03-2018, 03:46 AM
I find it interesting that majority making comments on this contract don't even work for ATI. As a matter of fact, that seems to be the case overall...in my observation. The hidden profane language also shows what kind of mind some may have (eg. midnightshuttle). Sorry, Another observation. Comment on your own contracts. Realize we are all fighting for a better life and maybe look in the mirror occasionally.

I don't need to eat a spoon full of dog sh#t to know I won't like the taste of it!

OverGMcGee
02-03-2018, 05:18 AM
These are approx numbers that should be very close with a ;) and a nod


BUG 60
16 on 12 off
13 period in a yr
top capt 275 with a 60 so 215'ish annually

scales still stop at 12 with those over 12 getting a cola

Heard they Vestal stick to his letter on the junior payscales

No A or B plan still a 401 matching at current rate

No scale wide cola No retro

Business or Better or nothing to prevent payroll errors (they are numerous)
etc etc.

MEC/CNC meeting with T. Saturday our union attorney and ALPA to get some sort of brief out ASAP before rumors shoot it down before it even comes out.

Im not sure it matches or exceeds Kallita with DOS+1,2,3 But its a step up from where we are now. Lets just hold off and wait to see what it says. Doubt we will get better so lets take a serious look at it.

JT8D
02-03-2018, 05:43 AM
Scaaabs get what scaaabs deserve.

Lockheed
02-03-2018, 06:44 AM
I find it interesting that majority making comments on this contract don't even work for ATI. As a matter of fact, that seems to be the case overall...in my observation. The hidden profane language also shows what kind of mind some may have (eg. midnightshuttle). Sorry, Another observation. Comment on your own contracts. Realize we are all fighting for a better life and maybe look in the mirror occasionally.

You Nailed it
they have their agendas in mind - not yours
Glad to see your Team has a TA
if your group likes it - it will be ratified
simple as that

Jason605
02-03-2018, 06:55 AM
Doubt we will get better so lets take a serious look at it.

Certainly not with that mentality. The coming weeks are gonna be hilarious as we watch the ALPA/ATI mantra become, “Just take the deal guys and we get all the flying”

Jason605
02-03-2018, 06:59 AM
You Nailed it
they have their agendas in mind - not yours
Glad to see your Team has a TA
if your group likes it - it will be ratified
simple as that

Exactly why 2 different unions doesn’t work. Now everyone gets to see it all play out in real time.

Froggy
02-03-2018, 07:03 AM
The reason why other airlines comment on your negations is because it directly effects ,either positively or negatively , other groups ability to get the best deal possible. This “don’t comment because you’re not at our airline” is an utterly short sighted and dim witted argument.
Pay rates aside, if y’all vote something in with no direct retirement contribution you are hurting yourselves as well as everyone else is the same general position. I understand that it’s better than what you have but it is NOT what you deserve.

gumpscheck
02-03-2018, 07:13 AM
The reason why other airlines comment on your negations is because it directly effects ,either positively or negatively , other groups ability to get the best deal possible. This “don’t comment because you’re not at our airline” is an utterly short sighted and dim witted argument.
Pay rates aside, if y’all vote something in with no direct retirement contribution you are hurting yourselves as well as everyone else is the same general position. I understand that it’s better than what you have but it is NOT what you deserve.

I agree 100%.

ATI pilots, you need to think about your professional pride and self esteem. Are you flying the same equipment as your counterparts at ABX? Are the Exec’s in ATSG giving themselves subpar bonuses and pay raises? Are the ATSG airlines responsible for the company’s profits?

Don’t underestimate yourselves. Demand and expect what you deserve. Vote your conscience.

baldwin
02-03-2018, 07:53 AM
The reason why other airlines comment on your negations is because it directly effects ,either positively or negatively , other groups ability to get the best deal possible. This “don’t comment because you’re not at our airline” is an utterly short sighted and dim witted argument.
Pay rates aside, if y’all vote something in with no direct retirement contribution you are hurting yourselves as well as everyone else is the same general position. I understand that it’s better than what you have but it is NOT what you deserve.

So Kalitta "hurt themselves and everyone else" by failing to hold out for a direct contribution % in addition to the increase in 401k match that they got?

Jason605
02-03-2018, 08:07 AM
So Kalitta "hurt themselves and everyone else" by failing to hold out for a direct contribution % in addition to the increase in 401k match that they got?

For a fact, the ABX NC was ask to lose items of our current contract to more closely match k4’s current contract in exchange for rates.

So I’ll send the question back to you, does that help or hurt?

That’s not to say that k4 should have held out. It’s just showing that every contract has affects across the board.

ATI is already compensated well below industry. Hopefully they have pushed to, at the very least come up to some sort of new standard.

You never get everything you want in this but the environment is ripe to get extremely close.

Froggy
02-03-2018, 08:15 AM
So Kalitta "hurt themselves and everyone else" by failing to hold out for a direct contribution % in addition to the increase in 401k match that they got?

Yes, absolutely, because that is far less that the industry standard outside of ACMI’s

baldwin
02-03-2018, 08:30 AM
You never get everything you want in this but the environment is ripe to get extremely close.

I couldn't agree more. ATI should vote down this first offer out of principle. It's clear that Amazon is dangling some sort of carrot to
management to press them for a CBA resolution. Guarantee there's more $$ to be had above the value of this TA.

What amuses me though is the ATI group getting lectured about self-esteem re: not asking for a retirement DC... pretty sure no one lectured Kalitta or (Omni for that matter) about settling for "just a 401k match increase". ATI could vote in a UPS-like CBA and 2 seconds later people would be on here finding a way to spin it in a negative way.

baldwin
02-03-2018, 08:31 AM
Yes, absolutely, because that is far less that the industry standard outside of ACMI’s

fair enough.

Jason605
02-03-2018, 08:45 AM
What amuses me though is the ATI group getting lectured about self-esteem re: not asking for a retirement DC... pretty sure no one lectured Kalitta or (Omni for that matter) about settling for "just a 401k match increase". ATI could vote in a UPS-like CBA and 2 seconds later people would be on here finding a way to spin it in a negative way.

I hear ya, but they're gonna need to swing for the fences on this one.

DawgOnKing
02-03-2018, 09:09 AM
Doubt we will get better so lets take a serious look at it.

As your aviation brother, I URGE YOU to reconsider your logic as soon as humanly possible. The market conditions have NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF FLYING AIRPLANES been better for negotiating your wage.

Dear Lord, what world do you live in?

Please share 3 GOOD REASONS for the quote above?

DC8DRIVER
02-03-2018, 10:55 AM
Scaaabs get what scaaabs deserve.

Pretty short sighted.

I know several ATI pilots who would support their union brothers no matter what. While there amy be one or two who disagree, to call all ATI pilots "scaaabs" is wrong.

They deserve the best possible contract.

DC8DRIVER
02-03-2018, 11:08 AM
Lets just hold off and wait to see what it says. Doubt we will get better so lets take a serious look at it.

I find it interesting that majority making comments on this contract don't even work for ATI. As a matter of fact, that seems to be the case overall...in my observation. The hidden profane language also shows what kind of mind some may have (eg. midnightshuttle). Sorry, Another observation. Comment on your own contracts.

ATI pilots need to hold out for the contract that you deserve. There has never been a better time for airline pilots to negotiate - the market is skewed heavily in your favor.

As far as the "keep your noses out of out business" crowd, just remember that the rest of the ACMI world will have your backs if push comes to shove. We are all soldiers in the same war and the enemy is not us.

8

motorclutch
02-03-2018, 11:11 AM
Yes it was pretty over the top! The membership should be able to determine what they will accept for their future.

JT8D
02-03-2018, 12:45 PM
Pretty short sighted.

I know several ATI pilots who would support their union brothers no matter what. While there amy be one or two who disagree, to call all ATI pilots "scaaabs" is wrong.

They deserve the best possible contract.

My previous comment alluded to their MEC, not the entire group. The entire group hasn’t even voted on it yet...

It took more than one or two people within their MEC to make a deliberate decision to NOT support the ABX strike. Said people are, by definiton, scaaabs (had to spell it that way to bypass the filter).

They deserve what they can negotiate.

Wings1856
02-03-2018, 01:00 PM
Scaaabs get what scaaabs deserve.

Typical...real brave on the other end of a keyboard. SAD

Stratocruzr
02-03-2018, 01:12 PM
Pretty short sighted.

I know several ATI pilots who would support their union brothers no matter what. While there amy be one or two who disagree, to call all ATI pilots "scaaabs" is wrong.

They deserve the best possible contract.

They crossed a known picketing line.

Stratocruzr
02-03-2018, 01:14 PM
As your aviation brother, I URGE YOU to reconsider your logic as soon as humanly possible. The market conditions have NEVER IN THE HISTORY OF FLYING AIRPLANES been better for negotiating your wage.

Dear Lord, what world do you live in?

Please share 3 GOOD REASONS for the quote above?

AMEN!!!
Just say No!

Reactivity
02-03-2018, 01:35 PM
I find it interesting that majority making comments on this contract don't even work for ATI.

Perhaps, but I'd estimate that a good number of those work for another ATSG company, so they know the deal. And the deal with ATSG is that the only "industry standard" contract they're interested in is one that sets the standard very low. So whatever ATI has in front of them right now, I'll be shocked if it's anything good. If it's not good and they take it because it's perceived to be better than what they have and they despair of ever getting anything better, ATSG will use that as leverage on ABX (and AAWW on Atlas, etc.), making ATI pilots, in effect, a bunch of tools. Take that any way you want.

If ATI pilots take a subpar contract because they think it's the magic elixir that will make Amazon scoop them up, then I'd advise them to remember the old adage, "Be careful what you wish for, because you might get it." Unless and until Amazon becomes a major player in express shipping, Amazon Prime Air will be a major expense, and management will be looking to minimize that expense at every turn. It will be very difficult to raise the bar down the road.

JT8D
02-03-2018, 01:50 PM
Typical...real brave on the other end of a keyboard. SAD

My prior statement is an undeniable fact. As to your comment on “bravery”, I held the line that day, where the hell were you?? Out being “brave”?

Perhaps your apparent need to defend said scaaabs is an indication as to your whereabouts on that cold morning....

Screwed
02-03-2018, 02:44 PM
The undeniable fact is that ATI pilots DID NOT SUPPORT the ABX strike.

They crossed the line INTENTIONALLY. Not only did they cross the line but they did so with the intention of harming their fellow ATSG brothers and rewarding themselves. They cannot deny what they did and why they did it.

Their excuses are pathetic.

In addition, ALPA is forever tainted by the stupidity and cowardice of those days. i will never trust ALPA again and I was a member there for over 20 years total.

JT8D
02-03-2018, 03:01 PM
Oh... and good fkking luck with that whole Amazon thing... Look at how well their last aquired labor group is thriving:

Whole Foods employees are 'crying' over stressful new workplace rules, report says | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2018/02/02/whole-foods-employees-are-crying-over-stressful-new-workplace-rules-report-says.html)

Littlebird
02-03-2018, 03:09 PM
Yes, it is sad to see what is happening to ABX. Kind of reminds me of how Delta punished Comair after their strike by shutting them down after a couple of years. They never forgot it. Kind of Ironic that this is happening all over again at CVG. I hope for the best at both airlines.

wjcandee
02-03-2018, 03:31 PM
Oh... and good fkking luck with that whole Amazon thing... Look at how well their last aquired labor group is thriving.

I think you missed a key passage in the article that you linked to:

"[E]mployees say they hope that Amazon, which recently acquired Whole Foods, will come to their rescue. (The implementation of Whole Foods' OTS system [the thing they are "crying" about] predates Amazon’s acquisition of the company.)"

Not to say that Whole Foods' employees might not someday have other beefs with Amazon, but this isn't one of them.

Motown
02-03-2018, 04:11 PM
Scaaabs get what scaaabs deserve.

I get a chuckle out of any ABX pilot hired before 2009 calling anyone a scab. What a sorry hypocrite. Most of us ex ABX guys have better sense and better memory. I can only guess who this idiot is.

JT8D
02-03-2018, 04:17 PM
I think you missed a key passage in the article that you linked to:

"[E]mployees say they hope that Amazon, which recently acquired Whole Foods, will come to their rescue. (The implementation of Whole Foods' OTS system [the thing they are "crying" about] predates Amazon’s acquisition of the company.)"

Not to say that Whole Foods' employees might not someday have other beefs with Amazon, but this isn't one of them.

Valid, but it’s all too easy to draw a parallel between the hopes of salvation harbored by the employees at Whole Foods with those at the Prime carriers. Hopes that White Knight Amazon shall ride in and dissolve all problems for a rosy happily ever after. One need only read the sentence in that article following the one you quoted to see how Amazon truly views its employees.

JT8D
02-03-2018, 04:18 PM
I get a chuckle out of any ABX pilot hired before 2009 calling anyone a scab. What a sorry hypocrite. Most of us ex ABX guys have better sense and better memory. I can only guess who this idiot is.

Better get back to the drawing board on that one, Sherlock...

b707guy
02-03-2018, 04:38 PM
Annnd, Motown sets the hook. Nice edit, BTW...

JT8D
02-03-2018, 04:42 PM
Annnd, Motown sets the hook. Nice edit, BTW...

I call ‘em like I see ‘em. Deal with it. The only set hook would be a yes vote from your lot.

Jason605
02-03-2018, 04:43 PM
I get a chuckle out of any ABX pilot hired before 2009 calling anyone a scab. What a sorry hypocrite. Most of us ex ABX guys have better sense and better memory. I can only guess who this idiot is.

I was hired after 09 so is it okay if I call a scabb a scabb? Is it true or false that they crossed a picket line and were rewarded for it?

JH Quote, "ATI, whose pilots are represented by ALPA and did not support the strike, will accrue all of the remaining aircraft we deployed for Amazon."

I'm gonna guess that they will now take a garbage contract in hopes of getting more..

I hope that some of the K4 pilots here see ALPA for what it is as well in preparation for their vote.

No Land 3
02-03-2018, 06:18 PM
I was hired after 09 so is it okay if I call a scabb a scabb? Is it true or false that they crossed a picket line and were rewarded for it?

JH Quote, "ATI, whose pilots are represented by ALPA and did not support the strike, will accrue all of the remaining aircraft we deployed for Amazon."

I'm gonna guess that they will now take a garbage contract in hopes of getting more..

I hope that some of the K4 pilots here see ALPA for what it is as well in preparation for their vote.

Most of the K4 pilots have been with ALPA at previous carriers. We all know that no solution is perfect, and we also know that it's not acceptable to have your biggest competitor having veto power over any future contract you may have.

goinaround
02-03-2018, 06:42 PM
Most of the K4 pilots have been with ALPA at previous carriers. We all know that no solution is perfect, and we also know that it's not acceptable to have your biggest competitor having veto power over any future contract you may have.

I just don’t understand this line of thinking. The companies are in competition for business. The pilot groups are absolutely not in competition with one another. I think this whole ACMI business is swirling the toilet.

Wayst
02-03-2018, 08:29 PM
The undeniable fact is that ATI pilots DID NOT SUPPORT the ABX strike.

They crossed the line INTENTIONALLY. Not only did they cross the line but they did so with the intention of harming their fellow ATSG brothers and rewarding themselves. They cannot deny what they did and why they did it.

Their excuses are pathetic.

In addition, ALPA is forever tainted by the stupidity and cowardice of those days. i will never trust ALPA again and I was a member there for over 20 years total.


I keep hearing ATI pilots are scabs. When did ATI go on strike? When did ATI cross their picket line?

JackStraw
02-03-2018, 09:04 PM
I keep hearing ATI pilots are scabs. When did ATI go on strike? When did ATI cross their picket line?

ATI doesn’t have the backbone to ever go on strike. They won’t hesitate to cross someone else’s line though.

No Land 3
02-03-2018, 11:04 PM
I just don’t understand this line of thinking. The companies are in competition for business. The pilot groups are absolutely not in competition with one another. I think this whole ACMI business is swirling the toilet.

It’s based on the actions of 1224. They held up our contract over duty day, now the same players are doing it to Omni. K4 pilots have nothing against Atlas pilots.

nitefr8dog
02-03-2018, 11:32 PM
It’s based on the actions of 1224. They held up our contract over duty day, now the same players are doing it to Omni. K4 pilots have nothing against Atlas pilots.
It was held up because the extended duty day would give K4 an unfair advantage over the other 1224 carriers competing for the same work....I guess the bylaws should be changed just for K4 because what? They want it?

No Land 3
02-04-2018, 03:03 AM
It was held up because the extended duty day would give K4 an unfair advantage over the other 1224 carriers competing for the same work....I guess the bylaws should be changed just for K4 because what? They want it?

New contract reduced our duty day from what it was. I believe Atlas wanted 18 hours for a four man crew? How does that work when military contracts are based on 24 hours? Thats always been our bread and butter. Atlas wants 18 hours? Good for them, we don't want it, and we don't want them telling us otherwise.

nitefr8dog
02-04-2018, 05:02 AM
Add textNew contract reduced our duty day from what it was. I believe Atlas wanted 18 hours for a four man crew? How does that work when military contracts are based on 24 hours? Thats always been our bread and butter. Atlas wants 18 hours? Good for them, we don't want it, and we don't want them telling us otherwise.

Stage a crew. Boy that was hard. 24 hrs 8 hrs over FAA normal day....where do you draw the line? 32? 36? Whats too much? How about the airline properly staffing the company...staging crews? More upgrades, more pilots...you are allowing them to understaff and overwork . Crazy.

Lockheed
02-04-2018, 05:28 AM
Add text

Stage a crew. Boy that was hard. 24 hrs 8 hrs over FAA normal day....where do you draw the line? 32? 36? Whats too much? How about the airline properly staffing the company...staging crews? More upgrades, more pilots...you are allowing them to understaff and overwork . Crazy.

you have no idea what you are talking about
any K4 guy reading this knows how true that is

Screwed
02-04-2018, 05:34 AM
The problem over at K4 is that Connie is strong, smart and ruthless.

Unfortunately, some of his pilots are the exact opposite. They will do whatever he demands.

His latest demand is to get rid of 1224 because he can't control it. That is why the group leading the effort to get rid of 1224 are his stooges.

Connie's dream is to have a pilot group like over at ATI.

Lockheed
02-04-2018, 05:38 AM
The problem over at K4 is that Connie is strong, smart and ruthless.

Unfortunately, some of his pilots are the exact opposite. They will do whatever he demands.

His latest demand is to get rid of 1224 because he can't control it. That is why the group leading the effort to get rid of 1224 are his stooges.

Connie's dream is to have a pilot group like over at ATI.

another joker who has no clue
so you really think CK can tell 300+ guys what union they must have
the "Wells Rebellion" has nothing to do him

No Land 3
02-04-2018, 05:49 AM
The problem over at K4 is that Connie is strong, smart and ruthless.

Unfortunately, some of his pilots are the exact opposite. They will do whatever he demands.

His latest demand is to get rid of 1224 because he can't control it. That is why the group leading the effort to get rid of 1224 are his stooges.

Connie's dream is to have a pilot group like over at ATI.
You talk as if you have a decent contract?

Jason605
02-04-2018, 05:49 AM
Whats going on here? Are we going to start to see the pro ALPO K4 guys come to the defense of the line crossers? That would be an eye opener.

No Land 3
02-04-2018, 05:50 AM
Whats going on here? Are we going to start to see the pro ALPO K4 guys come to the defense of the line crossers? That would be an eye opener.

That’s not going to happen

Jason605
02-04-2018, 05:52 AM
That’s not going to happen

I hope not.

CallmeJB
02-04-2018, 06:04 AM
Whats going on here? Are we going to start to see the pro ALPO K4 guys come to the defense of the line crossers? That would be an eye opener.

Ameriflight flew in and out of the CVG DHL ramp throughout the strike. Since then, one of the pilots that flew those flights has been hired at ABX.

Are you giving him proper scaab treatment? Not talking to him in the cockpit, vandalizing his flight bag, etc? If he really is a scaab, you can't let him forget it, right? Once a scaab always a scaab.

Why would the ABX pilot group want to work with someone like that?

Asci
02-04-2018, 06:07 AM
Hey guys there are other threads for k4 vs atlas.
As far as the ATI contract goes I agree we the ACMI community should all be talking together and working together to increase our pay and QOL. All of our MEC’s should be talking to each other. Our contracts should be like American Delta and United. That’s not to say we should make as much (although why not) but we should all be pretty close to one another on pay rates.

As far as the strike and scaab talk goes we should just shut that down. I wasn’t flying when it happend but I didn’t hear a peep from management or either union MEC until two days after it happend. That’s just **** poor. I should have known days before the strike so I could not show up to work, or in my case grab a sign and walk the line.

We all need to stop bickering, put the past in the past and come together as ACMI pilots.

Jason605
02-04-2018, 06:14 AM
Ameriflight flew in and out of the CVG DHL ramp throughout the strike. Since then, one of the pilots that flew those flights has been hired at ABX.

Are you giving him proper scaab treatment? Not talking to him in the cockpit, vandalizing his flight bag, etc? If he really is a scaab, you can't let him forget it, right? Once a scaab always a scaab.

Why would the ABX pilot group want to work with someone like that?


I had no idea. PM me his/her name and I'll see to it personally that him/her gets their fair share. And thanks for the heads up!

Jason605
02-04-2018, 06:25 AM
Ameriflight flew in and out of the CVG DHL ramp throughout the strike. Since then, one of the pilots that flew those flights has been hired at ABX.

Are you giving him proper scaab treatment? Not talking to him in the cockpit, vandalizing his flight bag, etc? If he really is a scaab, you can't let him forget it, right? Once a scaab always a scaab.

Why would the ABX pilot group want to work with someone like that?


I did just look and Ameriflight isn't a Union shop so it would be much harder for someone that worked there to not cross a line. I would expect them to try not to though.

Jurassic Jet
02-04-2018, 06:34 AM
I did just looked and Ameriflight isn't a Union shop so it would be much harder for someone that worked there to not cross a line. I would expect them to try not to though.

Pretty sure they are Teamsters. Not in 1224 though.

mikecweb
02-04-2018, 06:36 AM
Pretty sure they are Teamsters. Not in 1224 though.

Incorrect. Nonunion.

Jason605
02-04-2018, 06:37 AM
Pretty sure they are Teamsters. Not in 1224 though.

Really? It wasn't listed where I looked.

maxjet
02-04-2018, 06:49 AM
For a fact, the ABX NC was ask to lose items of our current contract to more closely match k4’s current contract in exchange for rates.

So I’ll send the question back to you, does that help or hurt?

That’s not to say that k4 should have held out. It’s just showing that every contract has affects across the board.

ATI is already compensated well below industry. Hopefully they have pushed to, at the very least come up to some sort of new standard.

You never get everything you want in this but the environment is ripe to get extremely close.

As you like to write, it is managements responsibility to present rates that keep you competitive, it is your job to tell them no. So tell the no and move on instead of complaining about someone else being responsible for your problems. You are so hypocritical.

Jason605
02-04-2018, 07:08 AM
As you like to write, it is managements responsibility to present rates that keep you competitive, it is your job to tell them no. So tell the no and move on instead of complaining about someone else being responsible for your problems. You are so hypocritical.


That's actually the dumbest argument I think I've seen you write yet. So by your reasoning, you are good with Atlas coming along and wanting more of k4's flying, but in order to get it their management says that they have to fly it for $50 an hour less than K4. Your now totally cool with that? Using your philosophy we all might as well work for free....

Jurassic Jet
02-04-2018, 07:13 AM
Incorrect. Nonunion.

News to me. Have they decertified since this?

Teamster Pilots, Flight Engineers Ratify Contract With Amerijet | Teamsters (http://teamsterair.org/node/2514)

Jason605
02-04-2018, 07:18 AM
News to me. Have they decertified since this?

Teamster Pilots, Flight Engineers Ratify Contract With Amerijet | Teamsters (http://teamsterair.org/node/2514)

That's "AMERIJET". Not "AMERIFLIGHT"

Jurassic Jet
02-04-2018, 07:20 AM
That's "AMERIJET". Not "AMERIFLIGHT"

Doh! See what happens when you post without having coffee first!

Lockheed
02-04-2018, 07:21 AM
That's actually the dumbest argument I think I've seen you write yet. So by your reasoning, you are good with Atlas coming along and wanting more of k4's flying, but in order to get it their management says that they have to fly it for $50 an hour less than K4. Your now totally cool with that? Using your philosophy we all might as well work for free....

Actually its not that dumb - that's the way you negotiate
when K4 management said we had to take X because Southern had X
we told them we are not Southern and we aint taken Friggin X
and we fought them until we got what was important to out group

that's how a group negotiates - there will always be some that have better and some that have worse

fight for whats important for YOU and your group

Screwed
02-04-2018, 07:37 AM
You talk as if you have a decent contract?

It took you six 6 years to get a new one. About average.

We are at 15 months.

Screwed
02-04-2018, 07:40 AM
another joker who has no clue
so you really think CK can tell 300+ guys what union they must have
the "Wells Rebellion" has nothing to do him

Really?

Want to explain why Connie's personal "beotch" is leading the effort?

Connie got ****ed because 1224 leaders stood up to him and he did not like it. He would much rather deal with weaklings.

Screwed
02-04-2018, 07:43 AM
As you like to write, it is managements responsibility to present rates that keep you competitive, it is your job to tell them no. So tell the no and move on instead of complaining about someone else being responsible for your problems. You are so hypocritical.

All you do is ***** about DW, 1224 and Atlas. Talk about the kettle calling the pot black.

Lockheed
02-04-2018, 07:59 AM
Really?

Want to explain why Connie's personal "beotch" is leading the effort?

Connie got ****ed because 1224 leaders stood up to him and he did not like it. He would much rather deal with weaklings.

perhaps you should call him that to his face
he is a good friend of mine and no ones *****
I can assure you of that

zerozero
02-04-2018, 08:05 AM
Right now, Hete, Flynn, Kalitta and Bezos are all reading this thread, doubled over, laughing their arses off.

Get it together guys. Get it TF TOGETHER.

redmanchew
02-04-2018, 09:42 AM
Ameriflight flew in and out of the CVG DHL ramp throughout the strike. Since then, one of the pilots that flew those flights has been hired at ABX.



Are you giving him proper scaab treatment? Not talking to him in the cockpit, vandalizing his flight bag, etc? If he really is a scaab, you can't let him forget it, right? Once a scaab always a scaab.



Why would the ABX pilot group want to work with someone like that?



This is false unless it's someone in class right now or a future class. There have only been 5 hired since the strike, and nobody came from ameriflight so pretty easy to tell there is no active abx Pilot that ever did such a thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Red Baron
02-04-2018, 11:21 AM
Hmmmm.....Guess you are forgetting about a management pilot at ABX. Seems he likes to cross picket lines also.

motorclutch
02-04-2018, 11:25 AM
Good point. Just like your VP. Oh yeah they were acting as a crew.

crazycoconut
02-04-2018, 12:04 PM
I have been watching airline contract negotiations for years and in general the process is always the same. Pilots come in and say Company X makes more and we should be the same or better. The Company says well Company Y makes this much and that is what we should pay you. So every time it goes round and round that you are really negotiating against other contracts, not about what you should be paid for the job you do.

The only way to get out of this cycle is to have a standard pay scale set by the union. Then there is no negotiation with the Company on pay, it is what it is. The power of a union is solidarity. So if a Company says , "we are not going to pay that" , then every pilot at every Company in that union supports them. That would get quick reaction instead of what we have now with negotiations dragged out for years. Just look at other industries. When port workers have contract negotiations and things are not going their way, they shut down the ports. Things get settled pretty quick after that. Ya, I know we have to deal with the RLA. But what do think would happen if one day every Teamster pilot said I am not flying until we get a deal. I bet they would settle pretty quick when everyone in the country was screaming about not getting their cargo.

There are many industries that have this model that a worker in a certain job class gets the same pay even though they work for different companies.

But it will never happen because most pilots have the attitude that I'll support you as long as it doesn't effect me. So that kills the solidarity you need to make great change. The Companies love this system, they know they have the advantage that is why they drag things out for so long with every contract negotiation.

nitefr8dog
02-04-2018, 04:27 PM
I have been watching airline contract negotiations for years and in general the process is always the same. Pilots come in and say Company X makes more and we should be the same or better. The Company says well Company Y makes this much and that is what we should pay you. So every time it goes round and round that you are really negotiating against other contracts, not about what you should be paid for the job you do.

The only way to get out of this cycle is to have a standard pay scale set by the union. Then there is no negotiation with the Company on pay, it is what it is. The power of a union is solidarity. So if a Company says , "we are not going to pay that" , then every pilot at every Company in that union supports them. That would get quick reaction instead of what we have now with negotiations dragged out for years. Just look at other industries. When port workers have contract negotiations and things are not going their way, they shut down the ports. Things get settled pretty quick after that. Ya, I know we have to deal with the RLA. But what do think would happen if one day every Teamster pilot said I am not flying until we get a deal. I bet they would settle pretty quick when everyone in the country was screaming about not getting their cargo.

There are many industries that have this model that a worker in a certain job class gets the same pay even though they work for different companies.

But it will never happen because most pilots have the attitude that I'll support you as long as it doesn't effect me. So that kills the solidarity you need to make great change. The Companies love this system, they know they have the advantage that is why they drag things out for so long with every contract negotiation.

Excellent post...my point exactly!

Screwed
02-04-2018, 04:56 PM
perhaps you should call him that to his face
he is a good friend of mine and no ones *****
I can assure you of that

I did not use a name.

Funny how you were able to identify exactly who I was referring to by a nameless description.

Next time you talk to him ......tell him I said "Hi" .

Screwed
02-04-2018, 05:04 PM
I have been watching airline contract negotiations for years and in general the process is always the same. Pilots come in and say Company X makes more and we should be the same or better. The Company says well Company Y makes this much and that is what we should pay you. So every time it goes round and round that you are really negotiating against other contracts, not about what you should be paid for the job you do.

The only way to get out of this cycle is to have a standard pay scale set by the union. Then there is no negotiation with the Company on pay, it is what it is. The power of a union is solidarity. So if a Company says , "we are not going to pay that" , then every pilot at every Company in that union supports them. That would get quick reaction instead of what we have now with negotiations dragged out for years. Just look at other industries. When port workers have contract negotiations and things are not going their way, they shut down the ports. Things get settled pretty quick after that. Ya, I know we have to deal with the RLA. But what do think would happen if one day every Teamster pilot said I am not flying until we get a deal. I bet they would settle pretty quick when everyone in the country was screaming about not getting their cargo.

There are many industries that have this model that a worker in a certain job class gets the same pay even though they work for different companies.

But it will never happen because most pilots have the attitude that I'll support you as long as it doesn't effect me. So that kills the solidarity you need to make great change. The Companies love this system, they know they have the advantage that is why they drag things out for so long with every contract negotiation.

I agree with 99% of what you wrote but.....

Unfortunately some judge would award huge damages to the airlines and the pilots would then be paying management.

Also, ALPA cargo pilots would not honor the strike and just use the opportunity to get more business for their airlines. It would just be another opportunity for airlines like ATI to screw teamster pilots.

Like ATI pilots did to ABX pilots a year ago WITH THE DIRECT ENCOURAGEMENT OF ALPA.

Kougarok
02-04-2018, 06:30 PM
I agree with 99% of what you wrote but.....

Unfortunately some judge would award huge damages to the airlines and the pilots would then be paying management.

Also, ALPA cargo pilots would not honor the strike and just use the opportunity to get more business for their airlines. It would just be another opportunity for airlines like ATI to screw teamster pilots.

Like ATI pilots did to ABX pilots a year ago WITH THE DIRECT ENCOURAGEMENT OF ALPA.

Yep what he said!

It’s a moot point as soon as ATI pilots settle their contract Amazon will buy them.

Kougarok
02-04-2018, 07:44 PM
Yep what he said!

It’s a moot point as soon as ATI pilots settle their contract Amazon will buy them.

I should have said they’ll probably buy them. Educated guess...

vroll1800
02-04-2018, 08:20 PM
I should have said they’ll probably buy them. Educated guess...

Educated guess if you're right, wild guess if you're wrong. ;)

Ludicrous Speed
02-04-2018, 09:20 PM
Right now, Hete, Flynn, Kalitta and Bezos are all reading this thread, doubled over, laughing their arses off.

Get it together guys. Get it TF TOGETHER.

They were laughing long before now....say when ATI scabs (yes, scabs, bc scabs cross picket lines and that is what scab ATI pilots did).

To a much lesser degree, they are also laughing at K4 going for ALPA.

As much as that would be great, there is no “getting together” with airlines flying for Amazon/DHL. The closest thing we have for solidarity between companies is ABX, Atlas and Southern.

sherpster
02-05-2018, 05:00 AM
Ati sucks. Thats it.

maxjet
02-05-2018, 05:20 AM
That's actually the dumbest argument I think I've seen you write yet. So by your reasoning, you are good with Atlas coming along and wanting more of k4's flying, but in order to get it their management says that they have to fly it for $50 an hour less than K4. Your now totally cool with that? Using your philosophy we all might as well work for free....

Try to keep up. I am writing the opposite of that. You left out the part where Atlas Pilots say no. If Atlas is truly lowballing you and they want the business then they will raise the pay. Simple as that.

The Company low balled us a thousand times, and our Negotiations Committee said no 1001 times. Connie wanted to expand and they had to eventually raise the pay. We, not you, not Atlas, not DW or anyone else decided where The Company was serious and where The Company was bluffing. I cannot say enough about the masterful job our team did in this area.

Only then, at the last minute, have the rug pulled out from under them by the very group that is supposed to have their back. Yes DW and 1224.

We will soon be gone and you can deal with the mess that he has created. Good luck to all of you, but unlike you I will not write critical things about your decisions. Wishing you well in your negotiations and I hope the path they have taken is highly successful

spitfire1500
02-05-2018, 05:43 AM
I'm surprised no on here has provided the TA details yet.


Probably because they're embarrassed !!! Usually a descent TA is out in public domain pretty quickly.

OverGMcGee
02-05-2018, 06:50 AM
Probably because they're embarrassed !!! Usually a descent TA is out in public domain pretty quickly.


The ferocity of the comments here is unjustified.

This may not be a tangible gain for ATLAS or ABX, this contract will offer a step up for us here. Wide body captain for under 80k has to stop. Many of us are in financial ruin after believing the lies and left good paying commuter jobs to come here. That statement sounds absurd, thats the situation we are in.

gumpscheck
02-05-2018, 07:38 AM
The ferocity of the comments here is unjustified.

This may not be a tangible gain for ATLAS or ABX, this contract will offer a step up for us here. Wide body captain for under 80k has to stop. Many of us are in financial ruin after believing the lies and left good paying commuter jobs to come here. That statement sounds absurd, thats the situation we are in.

OverG; have you seen a copy of the TA? If you have, please share it with the rest of us so we can see if it is a “step up.”

We just want transparency.

JT8D
02-05-2018, 09:08 AM
The ferocity of the comments here is unjustified.

This may not be a tangible gain for ATLAS or ABX, this contract will offer a step up for us here. Wide body captain for under 80k has to stop. Many of us are in financial ruin after believing the lies and left good paying commuter jobs to come here. That statement sounds absurd, thats the situation we are in.

It sounds absurd becaust it’s a completely moronic and defeatist attitude. CONGRATULATIONS... YOU’VE JUST JUSTIFIED THE FEROCITY OF THE COMMENTS HERE.

Essentially you’re saying that because you’ve been so underpaid even compared to the other ACMI’s for so long, you should accept a marginal improvement, even if it does not represent your true market value.

You’re only reinforcing my previous statement:

You only deserve what you’re willing to negotiate.

DawgOnKing
02-05-2018, 09:57 AM
The ferocity of the comments here is unjustified.

This may not be a tangible gain for ATLAS or ABX, this contract will offer a step up for us here. Wide body captain for under 80k has to stop. Many of us are in financial ruin after believing the lies and left good paying commuter jobs to come here. That statement sounds absurd, thats the situation we are in.

You have yet to answer the question I respectfully asked from your previous post.

I remain respectful when I say that you are one beaten dog friend. I can't imagine this mindset when flying wide-body aircraft for the (soon-to-be) world's largest corporation.

Wayst
02-05-2018, 12:05 PM
They were laughing long before now....say when ATI scabs (yes, scabs, bc scabs cross picket lines and that is what scab ATI pilots did).

To a much lesser degree, they are also laughing at K4 going for ALPA.

As much as that would be great, there is no “getting together” with airlines flying for Amazon/DHL. The closest thing we have for solidarity between companies is ABX, Atlas and Southern.


When did ATI pilots cross their picket line? I am new to this industry and don’t fully under stand how everything works about unions and strikes.

I was told that a separate part 121 company (ABX) with a separate union than ATI went on an illegal strike according to the RLA. How does that qualify ATI as crossing a picket line if they went to fly their own planes? Does this mean if American Airlines goes on strike, Delta and United must go on strike too? Is this how it works? Please explain so I can fully understand.

Kougarok
02-05-2018, 12:31 PM
When did ATI pilots cross their picket line? I am new to this industry and don’t fully under stand how everything works about unions and strikes.

I was told that a separate part 121 company (ABX) with a separate union than ATI went on an illegal strike according to the RLA. How does that qualify ATI as crossing a picket line if they went to fly their own planes? Does this mean if American Airlines goes on strike, Delta and United must go on strike too? Is this how it works? Please explain so I can fully understand.

You’re trolling.

ABX Air went on strike. 8 ATI Pilots crossed the picket line. Pretty much simple as that.

Asking if Delta and United must go on strike if American does is a moronic question. Obviously they don’t have to but they would honor each other’s picket line.

CallmeJB
02-05-2018, 12:43 PM
When did ATI pilots cross their picket line? I am new to this industry and don’t fully under stand how everything works about unions and strikes.

I was told that a separate part 121 company (ABX) with a separate union than ATI went on an illegal strike according to the RLA. How does that qualify ATI as crossing a picket line if they went to fly their own planes? Does this mean if American Airlines goes on strike, Delta and United must go on strike too? Is this how it works? Please explain so I can fully understand.

This feels like trolling, so all beware.

However, I will say that this strike/picket line was a unique situation.

ABX went on strike: a legal strike, which was not shut down by a summary judgement, that did eventually end as a result of a judge's injunction, but did not result in any actions taken against the IBT for an illegal job action. The unique part was that they defined the "CVG DHL Ramp Area" as a "struck work area". This is the first time that pilots have gone on strike and attempted to define anything beyond their company's aircraft or their company's freight/passengers as "struck work".

The ABX pilots did this strategically, because ABX doesn't fly any of its own freight. By striking the "work area", it allowed the other DHL carriers' pilots to also choose to refuse to enter the "struck work area".

So, it creates a sticking point for pilots whose unions were not briefed on this strategy already, and especially for pilots without unions. As Wayst is asking (ahem, trolling), why, if the airline next to you goes on strike, are you not allowed to fly your airlines aircraft? How well was this communicated to the non-Union AMF pilots, or the foreign DHL Europe pilots? Did anyone go out to the German 767F and Canadian 757F, up the stairs, and explain to the pilots the intricacies of the RLA and how they were sitting in a "struck work area". Did anyone do the same for the AMF turboprops that operated in and out of CVG on those nights?

It's a unique, sticky situation. That's what I'm saying.

I'll also add that the Master Scab List is populated only with pilots that have flown "struck work"; that's a crew flying an ABX aircraft during the ABX pilot strike. That is a clear, bold line that once crossed can never be uncrossed. This is not the same situation. I personally don't think it's appropriate to add any names to the Master Scab List who have not flown "struck work".

If IBT is serious about adding these names to the Master Scab List, then you must track down the names of the AMF turboprop pilots, the Canadian pilots, and the German pilots and add their names as well. They worked in the same area that the ATI crews did. Anything less is irresponsible union behavior (adding one operator's pilots and not the others). You can't have it both ways.

gptjjbmj
02-05-2018, 12:46 PM
You’re trolling.

ABX Air went on strike. 8 ATI Pilots crossed the picket line. Pretty much simple as that.

Asking if Delta and United must go on strike if American does is a moronic question. Obviously they don’t have to but they would honor each other’s picket line.

It's not moronic. ACMI carriers are very similar to Regional carriers with respect to their relationship with their contractors. They move some one else's business. If Republic were to go on strike then GoJet cannot refuse to fly their normal routes. In like manner just because ABX decides to strike the legality of which is still in question does not mean that ATI can refuse to fly their own freight for Amazon or DHL. A pilot would have no legal standing in a termination hearing for refusing to fly his freight. Abuse of the word "scab" makes the word meaningless.

JT8D
02-05-2018, 01:42 PM
It's not moronic. ACMI carriers are very similar to Regional carriers with respect to their relationship with their contractors. They move some one else's business. If Republic were to go on strike then GoJet cannot refuse to fly their normal routes. In like manner just because ABX decides to strike the legality of which is still in question does not mean that ATI can refuse to fly their own freight for Amazon or DHL. A pilot would have no legal standing in a termination hearing for refusing to fly his freight. Abuse of the word "scab" makes the word meaningless.

In your scenario, GoJet absolutely COULD refuse to cross a picket line. A far more pertinent example in this case is the fact that ALL Atlas AND Southern pilots honored the ABX strike, and ALPA knew exactly what was going on that day. It appears as though you’d better cut the BS and think up a different excuse.

Lockheed
02-05-2018, 03:35 PM
In your scenario, GoJet absolutely COULD refuse to cross a picket line. A far more pertinent example in this case is the fact that ALL Atlas AND Southern pilots honored the ABX strike, and ALPA knew exactly what was going on that day. It appears as though you’d better cut the BS and think up a different excuse.

Let me ask you a question
In 1989 when Eastern Airlines was on strike for 285 days
did Delta, United, AA, TWA, NWA et.al. honor Eastern's picket lines all over the USA and not fly their own jets with their own passengers?

When United Airlines went on strike in 1985
did all the other carriers refuse to fly their own jets?

I am pretty sure the answer to these two questions is no

both eastern and united hired replacement pilots to operate the jets of striking pilots - those bastards occupy spots on the scab list for good reason

JB provided some good info that I was unaware of as to the nature of the Ramp area being considered struck in total - that's good info to understand what happened that night

I am willing to be wrong and enlightened on this subject but I believe in the history of airline strikes the only pilots that anyone wanted to honor the picket line were the pilots of the airline that was being struck.

It wouldn't make sense any other way - if United pilots are on strike how does it help them if a Delta pilot refuses to fly a delta jet with delta passengers?

I believe the ABX strike over status quo violations broke new ground in several ways that seem to be not fully understood by many of us including me

JT8D
02-05-2018, 04:53 PM
Let me ask you a question
In 1989 when Eastern Airlines was on strike for 285 days
did Delta, United, AA, TWA, NWA et.al. honor Eastern's picket lines all over the USA and not fly their own jets with their own passengers?

When United Airlines went on strike in 1985
did all the other carriers refuse to fly their own jets?

I am pretty sure the answer to these two questions is no

both eastern and united hired replacement pilots to operate the jets of striking pilots - those bastards occupy spots on the scab list for good reason

JB provided some good info that I was unaware of as to the nature of the Ramp area being considered struck in total - that's good info to understand what happened that night

I am willing to be wrong and enlightened on this subject but I believe in the history of airline strikes the only pilots that anyone wanted to honor the picket line were the pilots of the airline that was being struck.

It wouldn't make sense any other way - if United pilots are on strike how does it help them if a Delta pilot refuses to fly a delta jet with delta passengers?

I believe the ABX strike over status quo violations broke new ground in several ways that seem to be not fully understood by many of us including me

As was mentioned, the ABX strike was orchestrated a bit differently than mainline carrier strikes of yore. 1224 had physical picket lines at the entrances to the DHL facilities at CVG and ILN, and the areas therein were designated as “struck work areas”. As to the why’s of this logistical setup I’m not sure; we’d have to ask the guys in the ABX Exco. I DO know that crewmembers from OTHER airlines drove up to report for duty that morning, observed the picket line, and did NOT subsequently report for duty.

Within trade unions in any industry, intentionally crossing a legal picket line with intent to work in an area which has officially been declared as a strike zone is tantamount to scabbery. Is that or is that not EXACTLY what a certain number of ATI pilots did?

zerozero
02-05-2018, 05:00 PM
It's really quite simple.

You're either WITH ABX or you're against them.

If you want to confuse the issue, then you start introducing Canadians, Germans and other non-union carriers, all of which are multiple degrees of separation from ABX.

ATI, however, as the sister carrier to ABX is only ONE DEGREE of separation. Even less than Atlas/Southern, which could be argued is TWO DEGREES of separation from ABX, but somehow Atlas/Southern found the moral fortitude to do the right thing.

Not EASY, but RIGHT.

As for the non union carriers and foreigners, that's just static interfering with the fundamental question of how we demonstrate solidarity as carriers of DHL/Amazon on a common ramp with management teams colluding together.

Get it together guys. Get it TF TOGETHER.

Almost There
02-05-2018, 05:42 PM
It's really quite simple.

You're either WITH ABX or you're against them.

If you want to confuse the issue, then you start introducing Canadians, Germans and other non-union carriers, all of which are multiple degrees of separation from ABX.

ATI, however, as the sister carrier to ABX is only ONE DEGREE of separation. Even less than Atlas/Southern, which could be argued is TWO DEGREES of separation from ABX, but somehow Atlas/Southern found the moral fortitude to do the right thing.

Not EASY, but RIGHT.

As for the non union carriers and foreigners, that's just static interfering with the fundamental question of how we demonstrate solidarity as carriers of DHL/Amazon on a common ramp with management teams colluding together.

Get it together guys. Get it TF TOGETHER.

Great Post!

Lockheed
02-05-2018, 05:55 PM
It's really quite simple.

You're either WITH ABX or you're against them.

If you want to confuse the issue, then you start introducing Canadians, Germans and other non-union carriers, all of which are multiple degrees of separation from ABX.

ATI, however, as the sister carrier to ABX is only ONE DEGREE of separation. Even less than Atlas/Southern, which could be argued is TWO DEGREES of separation from ABX, but somehow Atlas/Southern found the moral fortitude to do the right thing.

Not EASY, but RIGHT.

As for the non union carriers and foreigners, that's just static interfering with the fundamental question of how we demonstrate solidarity as carriers of DHL/Amazon on a common ramp with management teams colluding together.

Get it together guys. Get it TF TOGETHER.

You left out K4 crews who did the right thing also

gumpscheck
02-05-2018, 06:00 PM
Let me ask you a question
In 1989 when Eastern Airlines was on strike for 285 days
did Delta, United, AA, TWA, NWA et.al. honor Eastern's picket lines all over the USA and not fly their own jets with their own passengers?

When United Airlines went on strike in 1985
did all the other carriers refuse to fly their own jets?

I am pretty sure the answer to these two questions is no

both eastern and united hired replacement pilots to operate the jets of striking pilots - those bastards occupy spots on the scab list for good reason

JB provided some good info that I was unaware of as to the nature of the Ramp area being considered struck in total - that's good info to understand what happened that night

I am willing to be wrong and enlightened on this subject but I believe in the history of airline strikes the only pilots that anyone wanted to honor the picket line were the pilots of the airline that was being struck.

It wouldn't make sense any other way - if United pilots are on strike how does it help them if a Delta pilot refuses to fly a delta jet with delta passengers?

I believe the ABX strike over status quo violations broke new ground in several ways that seem to be not fully understood by many of us including me

You can ask any of the former Eastern pilots if ALPA promised to honor their strike. The answer would be a big YES. Then when the EAL pilots went on strike, they suddenly found themselves all alone because their ALPA brothers reneged on the offer to honor the strike and stop the whole airline industry in the country.

That is still a very sore subject with the former EAL pilots.

Lockheed
02-05-2018, 06:45 PM
You can ask any of the former Eastern pilots if ALPA promised to honor their strike. The answer would be a big YES. Then when the EAL pilots went on strike, they suddenly found themselves all alone because their ALPA brothers reneged on the offer to honor the strike and stop the whole airline industry in the country.

That is still a very sore subject with the former EAL pilots.

Well I know several directly involved I will ask about that...but as you know the Eastern pilots we're striking in sympathy with Eastern mechanics who were on strike..

Wings1856
02-05-2018, 07:18 PM
You’re trolling.

ABX Air went on strike. 8 ATI Pilots crossed the picket line. Pretty much simple as that.

Asking if Delta and United must go on strike if American does is a moronic question. Obviously they don’t have to but they would honor each other’s picket line.

OK, The above scenarios ARE different. Obviously. I was and still am a loyal ALPA member and served with another airline for many years busting my a** and this crap all happened BEFORE I got here. So for 8 guys "crossing the line" BEFORE I got here, you think you can call me a scab? What do you know? Do you know for sure they weren't management pilots? What do you think the other ATI pilots were doing? From what I hear, this goes much further back when 1224 tried to takeover ATI by force. IBT at ATI was rapidly de-certified in response. ALPA comes in and problem solved. So you see its not all one-sided and 1224 seems to intimidate everywhere they go. Believe me, if this TA is crap, we will vote it down. Personally, I'm tired of all this vitriol. I just want whats best for me and my family and I, for one, am willing to fight for it.

hackerbyday
02-05-2018, 07:40 PM
The saddest part of the 8 ATI pilots who crossed the picket line is they did it all for overtime pay. Sold out for what $300 to $400 and a lifetime with the new title of SCAB.

WhaleWrangler
02-06-2018, 05:00 AM
It was held up because the extended duty day would give K4 an unfair advantage over the other 1224 carriers competing for the same work....I guess the bylaws should be changed just for K4 because what? They want it?

Yes and all the time (6 years) we went without a contract we had 30 hour duty day's, now we have 24. So you're saying we should have continued with [email protected] QOL, poor pay rates and 30 hour duty day as that would not have given us an unfair advantage?? :eek::confused::rolleyes:

121again
02-06-2018, 05:15 AM
So when are we going to see this thing?

ke4lir
02-06-2018, 08:05 AM
So when are we going to see this thing?

Probably after it is released to the membership.

midnightshuttle
02-06-2018, 09:24 AM
The saddest part of the 8 ATI pilots who crossed the picket line is they did it all for overtime pay. Sold out for what $300 to $400 and a lifetime with the new title of SCAB.

Thats why you will never get an industry leading contract here. The same group of legacy and capital peeps were tripping over themselves to ***** themselves out for the holidays. Just cant see thr forrest for the trees. Few hundres bucks now blinds them from thousands later


There is an ATI FO on here that was asked if he crossed the line on a recent interview hopefully he grows a pair and post about it...

JackStraw
02-06-2018, 10:53 AM
Probably after it is released to the membership.

They my as well go ahead and sign it into a cba, because there’s no way that pilot group votes no.

OverGMcGee
02-06-2018, 10:59 AM
You have yet to answer the question I respectfully asked from your previous post.

I remain respectful when I say that you are one beaten dog friend. I can't imagine this mindset when flying wide-body aircraft for the (soon-to-be) world's largest corporation.

My apologies, on a rough schedule.

I didnt convey my point very well. We here currently set the bar for low compensation. If we were to get a 50%+ increase in compensation it may put us in the running. We all know that’s unlikely. We still wouldn’t be near what Atlas is asking for. I don’t believe Management has misgivings about making this a flow through training airline. Indeed this is why our training dept quit. We cant demand UPS rates from a stepping stone job. Its like Wal-Mart employees wanting 6 figure salaries.

motorclutch
02-06-2018, 12:12 PM
I heard the odd couple : *** will be joining hands to sell you guys this sub-par contract. Didn’t JV fire him from his management position? Regardless, good luck with this.

atpcliff
02-06-2018, 06:26 PM
We cant demand UPS rates from a stepping stone job. Its like Wal-Mart employees wanting 6 figure salaries.

It would be reasonable to expect UPS rates if all the Walmart employees were leaving for UPS, and Walmart new hire classes were getting more and more no shows, and Walmart were having more and more trouble getting to/sustaining the staffing level they needed.

Namaste...

Wings1856
02-06-2018, 07:00 PM
My apologies, on a rough schedule.

I didnt convey my point very well. We here currently set the bar for low compensation. If we were to get a 50%+ increase in compensation it may put us in the running. We all know that’s unlikely. We still wouldn’t be near what Atlas is asking for. I don’t believe Management has misgivings about making this a flow through training airline. Indeed this is why our training dept quit. We cant demand UPS rates from a stepping stone job. Its like Wal-Mart employees wanting 6 figure salaries.

Ummm...50% + ...I don't think its unlikely. It's only unlikely if we don't fight for it. He doesn't represent the rest of us and I hope he will make efforts to move on. We don't need that kind of negative attitude here.

Screwed
02-07-2018, 12:27 PM
My apologies, on a rough schedule.

I didnt convey my point very well. We here currently set the bar for low compensation. If we were to get a 50%+ increase in compensation it may put us in the running. We all know that’s unlikely. We still wouldn’t be near what Atlas is asking for. I don’t believe Management has misgivings about making this a flow through training airline. Indeed this is why our training dept quit. We cant demand UPS rates from a stepping stone job. Its like Wal-Mart employees wanting 6 figure salaries.

This is why ATI pilots can't have shiny new things.

If 50.1% of the pilots feel the same way then they will vote for a crap CBA and be a huge drag on the rest of us.

Jason605
02-07-2018, 03:22 PM
Try to keep up. I am writing the opposite of that. You left out the part where Atlas Pilots say no. If Atlas is truly lowballing you and they want the business then they will raise the pay. Simple as that.

The Company low balled us a thousand times, and our Negotiations Committee said no 1001 times. Connie wanted to expand and they had to eventually raise the pay. We, not you, not Atlas, not DW or anyone else decided where The Company was serious and where The Company was bluffing. I cannot say enough about the masterful job our team did in this area.

Only then, at the last minute, have the rug pulled out from under them by the very group that is supposed to have their back. Yes DW and 1224.

We will soon be gone and you can deal with the mess that he has created. Good luck to all of you, but unlike you I will not write critical things about your decisions. Wishing you well in your negotiations and I hope the path they have taken is highly successful


I thought you gave me the last word in the other thread and didn't want to stoop to my level?? You and I aren't even in the same zip code let alone the same page. Be like Elsa and "let it go". Nothing you have to say is of real interest to me.

Jason605
02-07-2018, 03:26 PM
This is from Oct.2017. When the TA is released, all you ATI guys need to think about the big picture. Do you really want to do the FDX and UPS job at a fraction?

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ups-fedex-stocks-fall-after-report-of-amazon-testing-new-delivery-service-2017-10-05

nightbirdx2
02-07-2018, 04:26 PM
When ABX pilots struck there was no ruling that the strike was unlawful from any court. Nearly 2 days later the Federal Court ordered ABX pilots back to work and the case was appealed for a number of reasons. Local 1224 and ABX later reached an agreement, netting most ABX pilots thousands of dollars and the entire case was dismissed. My point is that ALPA had no basis to declare the strike illegal and tell its members to cross the picket line.

nightbirdx2
02-07-2018, 04:28 PM
OK, The above scenarios ARE different. Obviously. I was and still am a loyal ALPA member and served with another airline for many years busting my a** and this crap all happened BEFORE I got here. So for 8 guys "crossing the line" BEFORE I got here, you think you can call me a scab? What do you know? Do you know for sure they weren't management pilots? What do you think the other ATI pilots were doing? From what I hear, this goes much further back when 1224 tried to takeover ATI by force. IBT at ATI was rapidly de-certified in response. ALPA comes in and problem solved. So you see its not all one-sided and 1224 seems to intimidate everywhere they go. Believe me, if this TA is crap, we will vote it down. Personally, I'm tired of all this vitriol. I just want whats best for me and my family and I, for one, am willing to fight for it.
Take over ATI by force?! Surely you jest, or revisionist history is in play here.

nightbirdx2
02-07-2018, 04:34 PM
Yes, and now after Local 1224 fought for years to get K4 a good CBA, some K4 pilots want to go ALPA, playing right into the hands of management. Shortsighted.

nightbirdx2
02-07-2018, 04:35 PM
Even if a pilot still has to use vacation days on off days?! Unreal. Sad!

No Land 3
02-07-2018, 05:36 PM
Yes, and now after Local 1224 fought for years to get K4 a good CBA, some K4 pilots want to go ALPA, playing right into the hands of management. Shortsighted.

If K4 votes to go to ALPA, 1224 only has itself to blame.

wjcandee
02-07-2018, 05:59 PM
When ABX pilots struck there was no ruling that the strike was unlawful from any court. Nearly 2 days later the Federal Court ordered ABX pilots back to work and the case was appealed for a number of reasons. Local 1224 and ABX later reached an agreement, netting most ABX pilots thousands of dollars and the entire case was dismissed. My point is that ALPA had no basis to declare the strike illegal and tell its members to cross the picket line.

For what it's worth, the premise of the Court's TRO was that the strike was illegal. In its order, the Court reviewed the law, to the effect that the strike would be legal if it was over a "major dispute" as that term is used in the RLA, but illegal if over a "minor dispute". It holds that the claimed bases for the strike amount to a minor dispute. It states, "The RLA authorizes injunctive relief to prevent an illegal strike." It then grants that injunctive relief. It's fair to say that most labor lawyers at the time predicted that 1224's arguments, while extremely-creative and very-well-argued, weren't going to prevail and that the strike would be found to be illegal, and it was. As is typical, the matter settled, the appeal was withdrawn, and the parties asked the court to dismiss the case and the TRO (as part of their settlement of the matter). If I recall the case record correctly, the payments made were agreed to (in whole or part) by the company at a meeting before the strike. The only unresolved issue, IIRC, was the manner of scheduling of the D6 days. That's not something one normally would strike about, unless one were really itching to strike, which it appears that the pilot group was.

It seems like the strike was a cathartic, unifying exercise.

The strike was rolled out in an unusual way -- with no designation of struck freight -- which had the effect of putting ALPA and the ATI pilots in a box, which may or may not have been one of the intended purposes of the way it was handled. It had the effects that it had and demonstrated quite a bit about the ABX pilot group and the union to which it belongs (among those: unity, solidarity, willingness to push the limits to make the point, etc.).

But I think most folks in the legal biz would be hard-pressed to say that the Court never found it to be illegal; in fact, I think that they would agree that finding the strike to be illegal was the basis of the order granting the injunction.

Jason605
02-07-2018, 06:38 PM
For what it's worth, the premise of the Court's TRO was that the strike was illegal. In its order, the Court reviewed the law, to the effect that the strike would be legal if it was over a "major dispute" as that term is used in the RLA, but illegal if over a "minor dispute". It holds that the claimed bases for the strike amount to a minor dispute. It states, "The RLA authorizes injunctive relief to prevent an illegal strike." It then grants that injunctive relief. It's fair to say that most labor lawyers at the time predicted that 1224's arguments, while extremely-creative and very-well-argued, weren't going to prevail and that the strike would be found to be illegal, and it was. As is typical, the matter settled, the appeal was withdrawn, and the parties asked the court to dismiss the case and the TRO (as part of their settlement of the matter). If I recall the case record correctly, the payments made were agreed to (in whole or part) by the company at a meeting before the strike. The only unresolved issue, IIRC, was the manner of scheduling of the D6 days. That's not something one normally would strike about, unless one were really itching to strike, which it appears that the pilot group was.

It seems like the strike was a cathartic, unifying exercise.

The strike was rolled out in an unusual way -- with no designation of struck freight -- which had the effect of putting ALPA and the ATI pilots in a box, which may or may not have been one of the intended purposes of the way it was handled. It had the effects that it had and demonstrated quite a bit about the ABX pilot group and the union to which it belongs (among those: unity, solidarity, willingness to push the limits to make the point, etc.).

But I think most folks in the legal biz would be hard-pressed to say that the Court never found it to be illegal; in fact, I think that they would agree that finding the strike to be illegal was the basis of the order granting the injunction.

It's my recollection that the company settled the major portions of the dispute prior to the ruling.

And if I'm wrong on that, it doesn't matter. It wasnt ALPAs place to decide what was legal or illegal. They had no crystal ball and crossed.

And let's not confuse what's going on here. ATI crossed and got the remainder of the Amazon birds. Now let's see the contract they are willing to take to get more.

Kougarok
02-07-2018, 06:38 PM
If ATI doesn’t get Kallita rates and home basing they’re lowering the bar.

WTFover
02-07-2018, 07:02 PM
We cant demand UPS rates from a stepping stone job. Its like Wal-Mart employees wanting 6 figure salaries.

I was at ATI previously and as I recall, I flew 767’s JUST LIKE THEY HAVE AT UPS, FedEX, DAL, UAL, etc.

It’s self-fulfilling, ATI is a stepping stone BECAUSE you haven’t demanded UPS rates! A stepping stone job, should be a regional, NOT one at which you fly the same equipment.

As for your comment of Wal-Mart employees, what does an unskilled hourly worker have to do with a discussion of professional pilots doing the SAME JOB as pilots at other airlines?

motorclutch
02-07-2018, 07:14 PM
Two of the most brilliant legal minds in America said the 1224 strike was illegal: Joe Hete and Dave Soaper. Who are we to argue with such intellect. Dave Soaper even said we were to be punished. Can you believe a president of a company would say this to his employees? Cornfield leadership at its finest!

No Land 3
02-07-2018, 11:33 PM
It’s the pilot group that makes the difference. If ATI settles for a Mesa like contract, they get what they deserve.

clb2vnav
02-08-2018, 02:44 AM
It’s the pilot group that makes the difference. If ATI settles for a Mesa like contract, they get what they deserve.

Some will stay for a subpar contract. Many of us though, myself included, won't. Currently working on my exit.

Lockheed
02-08-2018, 05:12 AM
deleted
....

hackerbyday
02-08-2018, 08:23 AM
It's my recollection that the company settled the major portions of the dispute prior to the ruling.

And if I'm wrong on that, it doesn't matter. It wasnt ALPAs place to decide what was legal or illegal. They had no crystal ball and crossed.

And let's not confuse what's going on here. ATI crossed and got the remainder of the Amazon birds. Now let's see the contract they are willing to take to get more.

Your correct the settlement the company made before going into the courtroom settled the major issues of the status quo violations leaving only minor issues which resulted in the return to work order.
As for ATI getting the remaining flights in the ATSG contract with Amazon that decision was made by Hete and not Amazon. So for ATI to think they are the chosen carrier by Amazon is false and could easily be reversed by JH if he changes his mind. They have nothing from Amazon to take to the bank.

Globemaster2827
02-08-2018, 12:23 PM
If ATI doesn’t get Kallita rates and home basing they’re lowering the bar.

Retirement.... Retirement... Retirement....

boiler
02-08-2018, 02:26 PM
Props to the ATI crew that I overheard reporting braking action nil on taxiway S in CVG yesterday, then proceeding anyway after declining ground’s offer to have them stop while ground crews work on the ice or just be towed in.


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motorclutch
02-08-2018, 02:57 PM
What a bunch of unskilled tools.....these are the same guys who land with 2500# total fuel onboard. what else would you expect?

txflyer9
02-08-2018, 03:09 PM
[QUOTE=motorclutch;2523498]What a bunch of unskilled tools.....these are the same guys who land with 2500# total fuel onboard. what

Kougarok
02-08-2018, 04:57 PM
I heard $260 an hour, no signing bonus, no retro, keep the home basing.

redmanchew
02-08-2018, 06:56 PM
Heard ATI try to decline deice the other day and the ramp tower demanded they deice because he saw a lot of snow piled up on the wings and fuselage. They seemed insistent on getting out on time as opposed to operating safely. Don't be risking your lives and the lives of the people at the end of the runway to get an amazon flight on time guys c'mon!


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hackerbyday
02-09-2018, 08:03 AM
I heard $260 an hour, no signing bonus, no retro, keep the home basing.

Why hasn’t anyone posted th TA as of yet? Maybe since there is a change in Union leadership coming real soon is a back room push for approval being attempted?

motorclutch
02-09-2018, 08:08 AM
I think it takes a while for the paint to dry on that turd of a TA. It’s gotta suck if v1 is trying to sell it with meth-mouth to the members.

Sdnumber2
02-10-2018, 07:29 AM
Here is my decision tree I made to understand the contract:

Did CNC reach a TA? YES
If yes, was TA reached on Feb 2 Groundhog Day?
YES
If yes, did CNC see their shadow? YES
IF yes, it will be 6 more weeks before we see TA
��������

motorclutch
02-10-2018, 08:12 AM
Not if V1 and Meth-mouth have their way!

crazycoconut
02-12-2018, 11:28 AM
so what are the highlights of this TA?

have none of the ATI pilots seen it yet?

Almost There
02-12-2018, 01:19 PM
so what are the highlights of this TA?

have none of the ATI pilots seen it yet?

Maybe the TA is somewhere inside the Amazon planes JH is allowing ATI to operate.

point432
02-12-2018, 02:06 PM
Maybe the TA is somewhere inside the Amazon planes JH is allowing ATI to operate.



Maybe behind the panel. Kinda like assembly line workers hiding a sandwich in the door panel of a car. [emoji6]


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BlueSideUp85
02-12-2018, 04:16 PM
What king of schedule can you expect. I know it’s 13 days off per 28 days total. How are you 15days on scheduled? All at once or few here and there?

Tumbl3weed
02-14-2018, 11:29 AM
12 Days and still no peek at the TA?
I was hoping this might turn out to be something worth voting on, but the delay makes it seem like they’re spending a lot of time trying to put a shine on a turd.

motorclutch
02-14-2018, 11:45 AM
“Turd Shining” luncheon hosted by V1 was held today in ILN.

OverGMcGee
02-16-2018, 04:56 PM
Despite earlier rumors its putting top cpt base pay 185 approximately.

Better to take a little now than wait 2 additional years in mediation.

gumpscheck
02-16-2018, 05:24 PM
Despite earlier rumors its putting top cpt base pay 185 approximately.

Better to take a little now than wait 2 additional years in mediation.

That’s a loser’s attitude. Is that what you think a B767 Capt. is worth? Where is your self respect and self esteem? 185K for a wide body Capt. is a joke. JH is definitely not underpaying himself.

dynap09
02-16-2018, 08:18 PM
That’s a loser’s attitude. Is that what you think a B767 Capt. is worth? Where is your self respect and self esteem? 185K for a wide body Capt.

$185K or $185/hr?

goinaround
02-16-2018, 09:11 PM
Despite earlier rumors its putting top cpt base pay 185 approximately.

Better to take a little now than wait 2 additional years in mediation.

That's about current book at ABX which is a concessionary contract from 2009. Sign that and we're all screwed.......

Kougarok
02-16-2018, 09:25 PM
Despite earlier rumors its putting top cpt base pay 185 approximately.

Better to take a little now than wait 2 additional years in mediation.

Are you ****ing serious?

Jason605
02-17-2018, 03:07 AM
This is what, three weeks now and barely anyone has any real info on this thing? It's got to be pretty bad.

I predict a next week this thing comes out along with something like, "This is the TA and so and so will buy us right now if we sign it, but we have to sign it now. Sign it now and we'll get more later on down the road". I'm willing to put money on that scenario. It'll be a must sign now deal.

baldwin
02-17-2018, 05:22 AM
185K base for a 12 yr CA?
Vote NO, for the love of all that's
sacred vote No!!

Tumbl3weed
02-17-2018, 06:44 AM
Despite earlier rumors its putting top cpt base pay 185 approximately.

Better to take a little now than wait 2 additional years in mediation.
So many things wrong with that statement, but let’s start with this- if your guarantee is 62 hours (rumor), you”re base pay will be $44,000 ($40,000 at 68 hours) less than an A320 Captain at Allegiant.

OverGMcGee
02-17-2018, 06:49 AM
Annually

If you look at how much we actually fly here its compettive. Most ATI pilots fly 400-600 annually.

Its going to pass all the legacy ppl have given the salary amount a thumbs. No one ever thought we’d match Kalitta or Atlas or even ABX for that matter. “We’re ACMI” as one of our negotiators stated.

point432
02-17-2018, 07:12 AM
Annually



If you look at how much we actually fly here its compettive. Most ATI pilots fly 400-600 annually.



Its going to pass all the legacy ppl have given the salary amount a thumbs. No one ever thought we’d match Kalitta or Atlas or even ABX for that matter. “We’re ACMI” as one of our negotiators stated.



I wouldn’t be able to have an attitude like that...In fact, I don’t. We have lines on our side of the fence that are getting 30-50 hours credit. At that point I can’t help how much I fly...its all about base pay. I don’t write the schedules. Being not the best at math, I still see you guys making less than Kalitta all around. You sound defeated.


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zerozero
02-17-2018, 07:17 AM
I wouldn’t be able to have an attitude like that...In fact, I don’t. We have lines on our side of the fence that are getting 30-50 hours credit. At that point I can’t help how much I fly...its all about base pay. I don’t write the schedules. Being not the best at math, I still see you guys making less than Kalitta all around. You sound defeated.


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The ultimate irony is Kalitta just kicked out 1224 and went with ALPA!

lmao.
You can't make this stuff up.

Jason605
02-17-2018, 07:22 AM
Annually

If you look at how much we actually fly here its compettive. Most ATI pilots fly 400-600 annually.

Its going to pass all the legacy ppl have given the salary amount a thumbs. No one ever thought we’d match Kalitta or Atlas or even ABX for that matter. “We’re ACMI” as one of our negotiators stated.


Flying a certain number of hours a year has absolutely nothing to do with it. I flew 500 at ABX,does that mean I should do it for a lower hourly rate? F no!

Your last two sentences are exactly what I expected to hear from ALPA approved line crossing scaabs.

If you guys sign off on a contract that’s lower than our 2009 concessionary one, your not even on the same class as ACMI. Your much, much lower than that.

gumpscheck
02-17-2018, 08:42 AM
Annually

If you look at how much we actually fly here its compettive. Most ATI pilots fly 400-600 annually.

Its going to pass all the legacy ppl have given the salary amount a thumbs. No one ever thought we’d match Kalitta or Atlas or even ABX for that matter. “We’re ACMI” as one of our negotiators stated.

Where is your self respect OverG? Come on demand what you’re worth. If you stand up to JH and Ford & Harrison, we will support you guys. Otherwise we will consider you all lower than scum.

One of our Union leaders always says that if you protect the profession, the profession will protect you. Come on show some leadership.

The rest of the ACMI wants to be be inclusive and support you guys but your defeated attitude makes it hard. What are you afraid from Mediation? It’s not the boogie man F&H makes it look like. Don’t fall for the divide and conquer routine. Unless, all you want is to be controversial and vote for it out of spite. Then all you are doing is hurting yourselves and your families.

plift
02-17-2018, 09:03 AM
$185 Is only a $3 raise over current rates, that can't be true.

Is this what they finally came up with in the last two weeks to try to sell a crap TA? Get everyone fired up with the rumor mill going that the new rate is only $185. Then release the TA and hope everyone is excited that it's low rates are at least not as bad as the $185 they were expecting.

Screwed
02-17-2018, 11:04 AM
$185 Is only a $3 raise over current rates, that can't be true.

Is this what they finally came up with in the last two weeks to try to sell a crap TA? Get everyone fired up with the rumor mill going that the new rate is only $185. Then release the TA and hope everyone is excited that it's low rates are at least not as bad as the $185 they were expecting.

Bingo. The rate is going to be slightly higher

This is just a ruse.

The contract is still going to suck.

l8fr82hub
02-17-2018, 11:28 AM
If you guys sign off on a contract that’s lower than our 2009 concessionary one, your not even on the same class as ACMI. Your much, much lower than that.

Jason, If the numbers on airline pilot central are correct the min guarantee for an ABX Captain is $178704 (and not home-based). All the guesses about whats in the TA are absolute BS! No one knows yet because the language isn't finalized and the MEC hasn't voted to put it out for a ratification yet. The $185k/yr Overgmcgee talks about seems awefully low and if true probably wouldn't pass. We should know in a week what the real numbers are, so how about you all quit being asses until then?

l8fr82hub
02-17-2018, 11:46 AM
...while we're waiting would anyone care to speculate why ATI has moved to a different building in ILN?

woog315
02-17-2018, 11:55 AM
...while we're waiting would anyone care to speculate why ATI has moved to a different building in ILN?

Who knows, but I was at an outstation the other day and the mechanic was wearing an ABX uniform with an ATI badge. It's almost funny at this point.

airbus300
02-17-2018, 12:09 PM
...while we're waiting would anyone care to speculate why ATI has moved to a different building in ILN?

In the last 5 days?

l8fr82hub
02-17-2018, 12:11 PM
In the last 5 days?

Yes, apparently in the past week AFAIK

Jason605
02-17-2018, 12:20 PM
...while we're waiting would anyone care to speculate why ATI has moved to a different building in ILN?

Cause ATI is the golden child and will soon be the cream of the crop. Well, the cream of something anyway.....

I didn't read into the move as they moved ABX staff as well.

Jason605
02-17-2018, 12:24 PM
Jason, If the numbers on airline pilot central are correct the min guarantee for an ABX Captain is $178704 (and not home-based). All the guesses about whats in the TA are absolute BS! No one knows yet because the language isn't finalized and the MEC hasn't voted to put it out for a ratification yet. The $185k/yr Overgmcgee talks about seems awefully low and if true probably wouldn't pass. We should know in a week what the real numbers are, so how about you all quit being asses until then?

Your ABX number is right. It's also concessionary from 2009, soooo....

No one has said if that was hourly or yearly. It wasn't specific when the poster wrote it. Either way, it's still garbage and I'm sure a bunch will try and justify it.

And you say home based like its a good thing. I like my lines and knowing where I'm going. I also like that if you F with my line, your paying for it. You can keep your home basing. I want no such thing.

I'd rather be an a$$ any day over a line crosser.

l8fr82hub
02-17-2018, 12:31 PM
Y
I'd rather be an a$$ any day over a line crosser.

I crossed no line just to be clear. I don't care for your implication.

Asci
02-17-2018, 01:05 PM
While we’re all making stuff up... I heard 12 yr captain pay at ATI will be $230k per year and $265k dos+3.
JH is gonna be able to pay because he’s closing the doors at the incredible shrinking airline.
Then k4 will sign on with ALPA and Amazon will buy both k4 and ATSG.
In 4 years when the amazon pilot group is negotiating a new contract they will be bigger than UPS and have an industry leading contract. Probably over 500k guarantee for a 12 year captain. With a 20% direct 401k contribution. 100% medical coverage, max duty: 8 hours, 10 days per month.
By then Atlas will finally be done suing 1224 and they can get back to negotiations. All the while complaining how ATI pilots are the worst and put everyone at ABX out of work.

Sdnumber2
02-17-2018, 01:12 PM
While we’re all making stuff up... I heard 12 yr captain pay at ATI will be $230k per year and $265k dos+3.
JH is gonna be able to pay because he’s closing the doors at the incredible shrinking airline.
Then k4 will sign on with ALPA and Amazon will buy both k4 and ATSG.
In 4 years when the amazon pilot group is negotiating a new contract they will be bigger than UPS and have an industry leading contract. Probably over 500k guarantee for a 12 year captain. With a 20% direct 401k contribution. 100% medical coverage, max duty: 8 hours, 10 days per month.
By then Atlas will finally be done suing 1224 and they can get back to negotiations. All the while complaining how ATI pilots are the worst and put everyone at ABX out of work.

I can live with that.

gumpscheck
02-17-2018, 02:47 PM
I can live with that.

As expected but be aware of Karma. I heard she’s a biatch.

Asci
02-17-2018, 02:59 PM
As expected but be aware of Karma. I heard she’s a biatch.

Is this karma directed at snub and Me or all the clowns on the previous 18 pages of haters bashing the ATI pilot group and contract(that no one has seen)?

Sdnumber2
02-17-2018, 03:40 PM
As expected but be aware of Karma. I heard she’s a biatch.

Hey dum****t, you are experiencing the karma you have earned.

Reactivity
02-18-2018, 11:06 AM
Who knows, but I was at an outstation the other day and the mechanic was wearing an ABX uniform with an ATI badge. It's almost funny at this point.

There are a bunch of mechanics who have moved around with the changes in who's flying where. There is one in San Antonio who works for both companies depending on which is flying there at the time.

JackStraw
02-18-2018, 01:52 PM
Hey dorks. Does anyone know why Amazon is buying ATSG and AAWW shares in increments of 5.62% and 5.67% respectively?
It can’t be due to the amount of aircraft being operated because ATSG is already operating all 20 aircraft and Atlas is only operating 12.

kolt66
02-18-2018, 02:31 PM
Hey dorks. Does anyone know why Amazon is buying ATSG and AAWW shares in increments of 5.62% and 5.67% respectively?
It can’t be due to the amount of aircraft being operated because ATSG is already operating all 20 aircraft and Atlas is only operating 12.

Where did you see this?

JackStraw
02-18-2018, 02:33 PM
Where did you see this?

There’s SEC filings online.

kolt66
02-18-2018, 02:41 PM
There’s SEC filings online.

I'm looking through the SEC filings and don't see it anywhere. Got a link?

JackStraw
02-18-2018, 02:51 PM
I'm looking through the SEC filings and don't see it anywhere. Got a link?

NASDAQ | SEC Filing (http://secfilings.nasdaq.com/filingFrameset.asp?FilingID=12498583&RcvdDate=1/26/2018&CoName=AIR%20TRANSPORT%20SERVICES%20GROUP%2C%20INC .&FormType=SC%2013G/A&View=html)

hackerbyday
02-18-2018, 04:20 PM
...while we're waiting would anyone care to speculate why ATI has moved to a different building in ILN?

I'm sure it's so ABX can start remodeling and prepare for expansion since ATI is going to Northern Air Cargo. lol

atpcliff
02-18-2018, 06:59 PM
Hey dorks. Does anyone know why Amazon is buying ATSG and AAWW shares in increments of 5.62% and 5.67% respectively?
It can’t be due to the amount of aircraft being operated because ATSG is already operating all 20 aircraft and Atlas is only operating 12.

I read that Amazon bought that many shares worth of Atlas/ATSG recently. When I read it they had done it one time. Has Amazon bought this many shares of Atlas and/or ATSG more than one time?

Thanx for any and all information.

Namaste...

JackStraw
02-18-2018, 07:08 PM
I read that Amazon bought that many shares worth of Atlas/ATSG recently. When I read it they had done it one time. Has Amazon bought this many shares of Atlas and/or ATSG more than one time?

Thanx for any and all information.

Namaste...

As far as I know this is all they have acquired of either company so far.

wjcandee
02-18-2018, 08:54 PM
Hey dorks. Does anyone know why Amazon is buying ATSG and AAWW shares in increments of 5.62% and 5.67% respectively?
It can’t be due to the amount of aircraft being operated because ATSG is already operating all 20 aircraft and Atlas is only operating 12.

Here's what the ATSG 10K said a year ago. The new one, when it comes out next month, should have more current info.

"In conjunction with the execution of the ATSA, the Company and Amazon entered into an Investment Agreement and a Stockholders Agreement. The Investment Agreement calls for the Company to issue warrants in three tranches, which will grant Amazon the right to acquire up to 19.9% of the Company’s outstanding common shares measured as further described below. The exercise price of the warrants will be $9.73 per share, which represents the closing price of ATSG’s common shares on February 9, 2016. The first tranche of warrants, issued upon execution of the Investment Agreement, grants Amazon a right to purchase approximately 12.81 million ATSG common shares, with the right to purchase 7.69 million common shares vesting upon issuance and the right to purchase the remaining 5.12 million common shares vesting as ATSG delivers additional aircraft leased under the ATSA, or as the Company achieves specified revenue targets in connection with the ATSA. Through the second tranche of warrants, Amazon has a right to purchase approximately 1.59 million ATSG common shares, issuable on the second anniversary of the date of the Investment Agreement and will vest immediately upon issuance. The third tranche of warrants will be issued upon the date that is four years and six months after the date of the Investment Agreement, and will also vest immediately upon issuance. The third tranche of warrants will grant Amazon the right to purchase such additional number of ATSG common shares as is necessary to bring Amazon’s ownership to 19.9% of the Company’s pre-transaction outstanding common shares measured on a GAAP-diluted basis, adjusted for share issuances and repurchases by the Company following the date of the Investment Agreement, after giving effect to the issuance of the warrants. Each of the three tranches of warrants will be exercisable in accordance with its terms through the fifth anniversary of the date of the Investment Agreement. We anticipate making the common shares underlying the warrants available through a combination of share repurchases and the issuance of additional shares. The Company’s stockholders approved an amendment to the Certificate of Incorporation of the Company in May of 2016 to increase the number of authorized common shares and to approve the exercise in full of the warrants as required under the rules of the Nasdaq Global Select Market."

At ATSG, the warrants are booked as a CAM lease incentive. As pointed out, all the ATSG aircraft are delivered, so the first tranche of ATSG warrants should have vested. This would mean that Amazon should have the right to have purchased several million shares now, give or take as a result of stock price fluctuations, at the exercise price, which is $9.73/share. It has in fact purchased far fewer shares than that.

The second tranche of warrants is due two years from the date of the ATSA (Air Transportation Services Agreement), which became effective on April 1, 2016. So the next tranche should be due on April 1, 2018, if I'm reading it right (the agreement was actually signed in the middle of the previous month, so I don't know for sure what the "date" of it is for purposes of the Investment Agreement). That's a smaller tranche, and I'm sure the upcoming 10K will spell it out a little better. I haven't looked at the Atlas stuff recently, but I think it's similarly-structured.

At the end of the day a couple of years from now, Amazon will have the right, but not the obligation, to purchase up to a total of 19.9% of the company shares at the exercise price. At the current stock price of about $24, that's a substantial paper profit to Amazon if it buys all those shares (which of course it doesn't make until it sells the shares, though). Multiply $14 paper profit today times say 12 million shares, and that's a lot of $$.

As to why they are buying what they are buying and the timing of it, I think it's just their corporate treasury department's decision about what to do with whatever amount of cash. They have the warrants, which themselves have value, so the decision about whether and what amount to exercise is really just an exercise in high finance. It doesn't really indicate anything in particular.

But one thing is for sure: at least at this point, the warrants have turned out to be valuable to the tune ultimately of a couple hundred million dollars. The irony is that if they exercise them and then sell the shares, the share price would likely fall precipitously, so how to convert that investment into actual realizable $$ is a wholly-different question that's beyond my knowledge of corporate finance. (And since I thought one purpose of the warrants had something to do with the legality of them dry-leasing aircraft when they're not an airline, they might not want to sell them for that reason.) Further, the warrants do operate as a bit of a pair of golden handcuffs: if they were ever to give ATSG the heave-ho on the operating agreements, the stock price would suffer, possibly substantially, so continuing to work with ATSG is worth tens of millions (or even hundreds of millions) in investment profits to Amazon.

I also note that investment funds like Vanguard, Blackrock and some aggressive small cap funds have recently made reportable-sized purchases of shares in the company, but they appear to be for investment purposes only.

Hogmanure
02-19-2018, 08:05 AM
Just saw an ad where Envoy is offering up to $110K for direct entry captains. To all ATI pilots, I sincerely hope you all have a full understanding of your value right now. I get the feeling that some of you don't see or understand your value because we are ACMI pilots. Do you think our companies tell the fuelers that they can't pay what FEDEX or UPS pays because they are an ACMI carrier? Do they get a discount when they buy airplanes because they are an ACMI carrier? Let us not forget that Amazon pays retail when they use FEDEX and UPS and are still making a huge profit. That means they are not only paying the salaries of their pilots, but also a profit margin ABOVE those companies costs. The ATI contract will set the bar for the rest of us, make no mistake about that. PLEASE, do not settle for a weak contract. And don't fall for the "if you sign this you will get all of the Amazon business" carrot. Amazon has huge plans and they need all of us!

gumpscheck
02-19-2018, 08:09 AM
just saw an ad where envoy is offering up to $110k for direct entry captains. To all ati pilots, i sincerely hope you all have a full understanding of your value right now. I get the feeling that some of you don't see or understand your value because we are acmi pilots. Do you think our companies tell the fuelers that they can't pay what fedex or ups pays because they are an acmi carrier? Do they get a discount when they buy airplanes because they are an acmi carrier? Let us not forget that amazon pays retail when they use fedex and ups and are still making a huge profit. That means they are not only paying the salaries of their pilots, but also a profit margin above those companies costs. The ati contract will set the bar for the rest of us, make no mistake about that. Please, do not settle for a weak contract. And don't fall for the "if you sign this you will get all of the amazon business" carrot. Amazon has huge plans and they need all of us!

Amen Brother!!!

baldwin
02-19-2018, 08:40 AM
Just saw an ad where Envoy is offering up to $110K for direct entry captains. To all ATI pilots, I sincerely hope you all have a full understanding of your value right now. I get the feeling that some of you don't see or understand your value because we are ACMI pilots. Do you think our companies tell the fuelers that they can't pay what FEDEX or UPS pays because they are an ACMI carrier? Do they get a discount when they buy airplanes because they are an ACMI carrier? Let us not forget that Amazon pays retail when they use FEDEX and UPS and are still making a huge profit. That means they are not only paying the salaries of their pilots, but also a profit margin ABOVE those companies costs. The ATI contract will set the bar for the rest of us, make no mistake about that. PLEASE, do not settle for a weak contract. And don't fall for the "if you sign this you will get all of the Amazon business" carrot. Amazon has huge plans and they need all of us!

#VoteNoMarch2018

No Land 3
02-19-2018, 10:24 AM
You guys sound like a Mesa crew room...

CallmeJB
02-19-2018, 01:11 PM
The beginning of another week, and still no highlights of the TA.

Almost There
02-19-2018, 01:16 PM
The beginning of another week, and still no highlights of the TA.

Are there any highlights?

EMD1594
02-19-2018, 02:19 PM
TA is schedule to be released on 23 FEB

motorclutch
02-19-2018, 02:44 PM
Relax and trust V1, he will take good care of you.

EMD1594
02-19-2018, 03:20 PM
Only Baby V gets that

woog315
02-19-2018, 06:58 PM
Hey dorks. Does anyone know why Amazon is buying ATSG and AAWW shares in increments of 5.62% and 5.67% respectively?
It can’t be due to the amount of aircraft being operated because ATSG is already operating all 20 aircraft and Atlas is only operating 12.
Those filings are not share purchases, they have warrants to purchase shares and the amount they are disclosing is based on the minimum required by law. If you read the filing closely, it explains what they are doing. They have not exercised their warrants for ATSG or AAWW, they are just disclosing their interest as required by law.

The applicable part is "The number of shares of Common Stock that are currently exercisable is calculated with reference to applicable notification and clearance thresholds in the Hart-Scott-Rodino Antitrust Improvements Act of 1976, as amended (the “HSR Act”), and is reported in this statement with reference to the market price of the Common Stock (as calculated pursuant to the HSR Act) and the applicable HSR Act thresholds as of December 31, 2017. To the extent the market price of the Common Stock increases or the applicable HSR Act threshold decreases, the number of shares of Common Stock beneficially owned by Amazon would decrease. To the extent the market price of the Common Stock decreases or the applicable HSR Act threshold increases, the number of shares of Common Stock beneficially owned by Amazon would increase"

The minimum threshold for 2017 was right around $80mil, and if you do the math (number of shares reported x share price as of dec 31st 2017) you will see it is right around $80mil. Read up on the HSR act to understand why they are making this filing. They have not exercised warrants for either ATSG or AAWW yet, though some have vested and they can exercise them whenever they feel like it.

Jason605
02-23-2018, 06:17 AM
Oh Boy!!! Today is the day. Can’t wait to see this.. haha

papacharlie
02-23-2018, 10:00 AM
Still working on a discount for massive a.. waxing:D

atpcliff
02-23-2018, 04:31 PM
Those filings are not share purchases, they have warrants to purchase shares and the amount they are disclosing is based on the minimum required by law. If you read the filing closely, it explains what they are doing. They have not exercised their warrants for ATSG or AAWW, they are just disclosing their interest as required by law.

The applicable part is "The number of shares of Common Stock that are currently exercisable is calculated with reference to applicable notification and clearance thresholds in the Hart-Scott-Rodino Antitrust Improvements Act of 1976, as amended (the “HSR Act”), and is reported in this statement with reference to the market price of the Common Stock (as calculated pursuant to the HSR Act) and the applicable HSR Act thresholds as of December 31, 2017. To the extent the market price of the Common Stock increases or the applicable HSR Act threshold decreases, the number of shares of Common Stock beneficially owned by Amazon would decrease. To the extent the market price of the Common Stock decreases or the applicable HSR Act threshold increases, the number of shares of Common Stock beneficially owned by Amazon would increase"

The minimum threshold for 2017 was right around $80mil, and if you do the math (number of shares reported x share price as of dec 31st 2017) you will see it is right around $80mil. Read up on the HSR act to understand why they are making this filing. They have not exercised warrants for either ATSG or AAWW yet, though some have vested and they can exercise them whenever they feel like it.

Excellent info and explanation.

Namaste...

Front Office
02-25-2018, 01:43 PM
But still not hiring?

FlyAstarJets
02-25-2018, 03:55 PM
But still not hiring?

Good thing the peeps in class that started the 12’th don’t know that :rolleyes:



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