Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Flow being violated again...


Gooselives
02-01-2018, 04:49 AM
Month over month flow date is getting farther away rather then closer...

Flow=Fake News


DilsonWic
02-01-2018, 05:07 AM
Please go on. How now? Other than the standard 25 month.

BIueSideUp
02-01-2018, 05:54 AM
#HereWeFlowNow!!! XD smh


Chicken Little
02-01-2018, 05:58 AM
Month over month flow date is getting farther away rather then closer...

Flow=Fake News

I count 25 names who flowed in January.

I also count 25 names who were awarded (placed in the pool) on Jan 22nd.

Which number is being violated?

AZPilotMike
02-01-2018, 06:36 AM
I count 25 names who flowed in January.

I also count 25 names who were awarded (placed in the pool) on Jan 22nd.

Which number is being violated?
Did AA take more than 50 this month? If so then that would be the number they are referring to I imagine.

ORDinary
02-01-2018, 09:05 AM
Did AA take more than 50 this month? If so then that would be the number they are referring to I imagine.

Which month? In January I believe they hired 80ish. In February the first class is going to be 24 (if you believe the AA thread), and nobody has said how big the second class will be. 25 of the February total will be flows.

AZPilotMike
02-01-2018, 09:52 AM
Which month? In January I believe they hired 80ish. In February the first class is going to be 24 (if you believe the AA thread), and nobody has said how big the second class will be. 25 of the February total will be flows.

I was only guessing as to the OPís intent. If they took more than 50 that month then they need to take more than 25 if I understand correctly.

Daytripper13
02-01-2018, 04:09 PM
I was only guessing as to the OPís intent. If they took more than 50 that month then they need to take more than 25 if I understand correctly.

This is straight from the LOA, it sucks what theyíre doing but doesnít seem like they are violating it. Doubt the union will win grievance.

Upon delivery of the 40th EMB-175 as set forth in Appendix D, and assuming there are still pilots who were added to the Envoy master seniority list on or before October 11, 2011 who have not yet been offered a flow through opportunity, 50% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 25 per month (subject to the 50%), shall go to such Envoy pilots, until the point in time when the next pilot on the Envoy master seniority list to be offered a flow through opportunity was hired after October 11, 2011.

Bigpimppilot
02-01-2018, 06:49 PM
Do you have a law or contract background?

daveetasac
02-01-2018, 08:09 PM
This is straight from the LOA, it sucks what theyíre doing but doesnít seem like they are violating it. Doubt the union will win grievance.

Upon delivery of the 40th EMB-175 as set forth in Appendix D, and assuming there are still pilots who were added to the Envoy master seniority list on or before October 11, 2011 who have not yet been offered a flow through opportunity, 50% of all AA new hire training slots, no fewer than 25 per month (subject to the 50%), shall go to such Envoy pilots, until the point in time when the next pilot on the Envoy master seniority list to be offered a flow through opportunity was hired after October 11, 2011.

This would mean that no fewer than 50% would reign supreme. If 60 are hired at AA in a month, 30 protected pilots should flow. Operational necessity should not apply at this point, as the company continues to grow the pilot group/flying.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

AZPilotMike
02-02-2018, 02:12 AM
This would mean that no fewer than 50% would reign supreme. If 60 are hired at AA in a month, 30 protected pilots should flow. Operational necessity should not apply at this point, as the company continues to grow the pilot group/flying.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
This is what I was assuming the OP was referring to.

Daytripper13
02-02-2018, 05:28 AM
This would mean that no fewer than 50% would reign supreme. If 60 are hired at AA in a month, 30 protected pilots should flow. Operational necessity should not apply at this point, as the company continues to grow the pilot group/flying.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

I found the full letter:

When AA is hiring, Eagle shall release a minimum of 25 eagle pilots per month, provided that, if American becomes obligated to offer sufficient pilot positions to fill a minimum of 50% of each new hire class, then Eagle shall use its best efforts to release a sufficient number of pilots per month to fill such classes, but in no event less then 25.

It’s the words best effort that is worrisome. After losing the reserve turn back to arbitration and many others, I don’t have much confidence. Hope you’re right though...

ORDinary
02-02-2018, 05:44 AM
I found the full letter:

When AA is hiring, Eagle shall release a minimum of 25 eagle pilots per month, provided that, if American becomes obligated to offer sufficient pilot positions to fill a minimum of 50% of each new hire class, then Eagle shall use its best efforts to release a sufficient number of pilots per month to fill such classes, but in no event less then 25.

Itís the words best effort that is worrisome. After losing the reserve turn back to arbitration and many others, I donít have much confidence. Hope your right though...

I agree that "best efforts" is weak language, but it helps when an upper management member comes out in public and admits their plan to always meter no matter what.

daveetasac
02-02-2018, 08:23 AM
I agree with all...that language is as holey as a piece of Swiss cheese.

Aviatrx
02-02-2018, 11:11 AM
I agree that "best efforts" is weak language, but it helps when an upper management member comes out in public and admits their plan to always meter no matter what.

THIS. RW is actually on record saying exactly this without even mention that he intends to make a best effort to flow 50%. I am pretty sure we can win this one. What we win though, will more than likely be underwhelming

mketch11
02-02-2018, 11:28 AM
How about 50% get seniority numbers regardless of less flow?
I’m just spitballing here.

bigtime209
02-02-2018, 12:54 PM
How about 50% get seniority numbers regardless of less flow?
Iím just spitballing here.

Not going to happen. APA will not allow seniority numbers to go to anyone not on AA property.

mketch11
02-02-2018, 01:06 PM
Not going to happen. APA will not allow seniority numbers to go to anyone not on AA property.

Ya I guess Iím too optimistic, Iím honestly leaning towards they will meter the flow and we will lose these grievances claiming contract violation. On a side note, how hard is it to volunteer for union stuff such as contact negotiation if you commute?

havick206
02-02-2018, 01:24 PM
Ya I guess Iím too optimistic, Iím honestly leaning towards they will meter the flow and we will lose these grievances claiming contract violation. On a side note, how hard is it to volunteer for union stuff such as contact negotiation if you commute?

Commuting doesnít make a difference for volunteering for those positions, good luck and Iím sure the committee would appreciate the help.

bigtime209
02-02-2018, 02:04 PM
Ya I guess Iím too optimistic, Iím honestly leaning towards they will meter the flow and we will lose these grievances claiming contract violation. On a side note, how hard is it to volunteer for union stuff such as contact negotiation if you commute?

I'd say you're leaning towards a very safe bet.

1704LIFE
02-10-2018, 09:09 AM
So what happens after they flow the 2011 people? Does the flow have to be renewed...does it expire, or what? Iím fully ignorant in these matters

TransWorld
02-10-2018, 11:59 AM
So what happens after they flow the 2011 people? Does the flow have to be renewed...does it expire, or what? I’m fully ignorant in these matters

Also on the Envoy Page. . . .

http://image.lifestyle.ibemail.com/lib/fe921573736c057474/m/1/EnvoyTable.jpg

Now, as time goes on, will it be subject of renegotiations? Good question.

The Protected Pilots are to flow at 25 per month. After 10/11/2011 hire data, it drops to 15 per month. Then, after 12/23/2014 hire date, based on current pilot headcount, it goes up to 20 per month.

BIueSideUp
02-10-2018, 12:07 PM
Read the boxes through the Envoy Management Lens and you'll quickly begin to see how sharply this flow is about to be cut.

havick206
02-10-2018, 12:29 PM
Read the boxes through the Envoy Management Lens and you'll quickly begin to see how sharply this flow is about to be cut.

I wonder how many RTP guys will stick around as soon as their obligation to pay back any of the money is up? Think about it, they werenít originally remotely marketable to the likes of spirit, allegiant, SWA etc given zero fixed wing time, however now the RTP has set them up perfectly with 1000-2000 hours 121 time. In about 12-18 months I think we will start to see all the RTP guys bailing (not necessarily to legacies right off the bat) once their obligation is up to repay anything, which goes hand in hand with them having a bunch of 121 time under their belt.

Voski
02-10-2018, 06:29 PM
I wonder how many RTP guys will stick around as soon as their obligation to pay back any of the money is up? Think about it, they werenít originally remotely marketable to the likes of spirit, allegiant, SWA etc given zero fixed wing time, however now the RTP has set them up perfectly with 1000-2000 hours 121 time. In about 12-18 months I think we will start to see all the RTP guys bailing (not necessarily to legacies right off the bat) once their obligation is up to repay anything, which goes hand in hand with them having a bunch of 121 time under their belt.

It'll be interesting to see how the majors view the huge influx of military helicopter pilots into the regionals. They are, by definition, military pilots -- not with the directly relevant category flight time, but military pilots nonetheless.

I would think their background would positively boost their resumes in a stack, but that's just pure speculation. Less subjective, however, is that a lot of Army warrant officer types coming over to the regionals DO NOT have bachelors degrees (or higher) which will obviously negatively impact their ability to move up to some major airlines.