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queue
02-02-2018, 02:07 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2018/02/02/jetblue-contractors-vote-strike/lxpKJgkROLPnWJp1mJhPqO/story.html

My other question went unanswered, so let me try again...

Why does it take 3 years to get where we are... still not at a position to strike... Yes, I know the Railway Labor Act...

Could ALPA meet with JB every day and if they refuse to come to the table, then involve the mediator? I know our negotiating team is all volunteer and doing this for us, but have we failed to put enough people into negotiations to have constant coverage in order to speed things up? If it's the Railway Act, does it say that we can only meet once a month?

Yes, I know the industry standard is years, but WHY is it years? Literally no one else on the planet takes this long. It seems like every other Union that deal with JB can strike in weeks but us in years. These are drag and drop contracts.

It seems like we need a fundamental re-engineering of the process and manpower.


rvr1800
02-02-2018, 02:47 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2018/02/02/jetblue-contractors-vote-strike/lxpKJgkROLPnWJp1mJhPqO/story.html

My other question went unanswered, so let me try again...

Why does it take 3 years to get where we are... still not at a position to strike... Yes, I know the Railway Labor Act...

Could ALPA meet with JB every day and if they refuse to come to the table, then involve the mediator? I know our negotiating team is all volunteer and doing this for us, but have we failed to put enough people into negotiations to have constant coverage in order to speed things up? If it's the Railway Act, does it say that we can only meet once a month?

Yes, I know the industry standard is years, but WHY is it years? Literally no one else on the planet takes this long. It seems like every other Union that deal with JB can strike in weeks but us in years. These are drag and drop contracts.

It seems like we need a fundamental re-engineering of the process and manpower.

Copy and paste this post to your email and ask them yourself. They will be happy to answer all your questions.

The701Express
02-02-2018, 03:04 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/business/2018/02/02/jetblue-contractors-vote-strike/lxpKJgkROLPnWJp1mJhPqO/story.html

My other question went unanswered, so let me try again...

Why does it take 3 years to get where we are... still not at a position to strike... Yes, I know the Railway Labor Act...

Could ALPA meet with JB every day and if they refuse to come to the table, then involve the mediator? I know our negotiating team is all volunteer and doing this for us, but have we failed to put enough people into negotiations to have constant coverage in order to speed things up? If it's the Railway Act, does it say that we can only meet once a month?

Yes, I know the industry standard is years, but WHY is it years? Literally no one else on the planet takes this long. It seems like every other Union that deal with JB can strike in weeks but us in years. These are drag and drop contracts.

It seems like we need a fundamental re-engineering of the process and manpower.

The failure to achieve an agreement at the bargaining table isn't a result of not having enough opportunity to negotiate. It is a result of the company's unwillingness to present reasonable proposals on the remaining open sections.

Even when we were making progress during direct negotiations, there is a limit to how much time is spent effectively bargaining. A week of negotiating needs just as much preparation time. Our negotiating committee is made up of humans who, like us, deserve time off to be at home with their families.

There are many more people involved with negotiations besides just the negotiating committee members. But at the end of the day, you have to have a select group of people who are making financial decisions, much like there's only one PIC on an aircraft. Throwing more people into the mix doesn't lead to a corresponding increase in the rate of negotiations.

Now that we're in mediation, we are subject to the NMB and the mediator's schedule and funding. The only way to have an affect on that is to call or write your congressman and lobby for an increase in their budget and staffing.

As for the RLA, you can do the same, but I suggest you make your peace with the situation as is and refocus the effort into being informed and educated (which it seems you already are), flying SOP, and applying elsewhere if this is not longer your desired career destination.

Three years of negotiations is a long time, but there are pilot groups who have fought longer and harder than us for a contract. This long, frustrating process has been endured by many of those that came before us, yet their patience and persistence helped win some of the greatest benefits and protections our profession still enjoys today.

If you haven't already, I highly suggest reading "Flying The Line", both part one and two. Learning about our union's history helps put our fight in a context of the greater struggle between labor and airline management. It's helped me to better understand our place in the history of the profession and to focus on the long-term struggle rather than becoming hyper-focused on the short term.

I appreciate your contributions to this forum. While I may not always agree, I am grateful to see another poster adding to the grater discussion with well thought out positions, with evidence and reasoning to accompany it.

While we are all frustrated with the slow pace of negotiations, angered by the disparity in our pay and time spent at home compared to our peers, and disappointed in the company's failure to meet our standard of good faith, we have to recognize the marathon we're currently running. The hardest part about a marathon isn't the physical challenge, it's mental. Even though your mind tells you all the reasons it's easier to just quit and go home, you keep going.

The good news is that when a runner overcomes that voice and pushes through that wall of self doubt and resignation, especially towards the end of the race, he finds what runners call "the kick". His performance improves as a result and he ends the race strong.

On Wednesday, this pilot group found its kick.


queue
02-02-2018, 03:58 PM
we are subject to the NMB and the mediator's schedule and funding. The only way to have an affect on that is to call or write your congressman and lobby for an increase in their budget and staffing.

That's a great point.

Since ALPA hasn't made progress on this ground, there is nothing legally stopping each and one of us from writing our public servants on this matter. If 700 pilots showed up to JetBlue headquarters, I wonder what 700 snail mail letters would do to Congress to require that all contracts be settled within 6 months (or less). There is no excuse for this taking 3+ years and I don't support the historical norms. All the pinnacle achievements of mankind have taken far less time. This is a simple drag and drop contract -- in other words, there's nothing fundamentally different than what other airlines have done. Here's my proposal for the law:

1) employee union creates official petition for pay and/or work rules grievance to NMB.
2) Each party is required to deliver written responses via NMB to each other.
3) Each party gets 1 week to respond to one another.
4) This process re-iterates for 6 weeks.
5) If employee union declares non-satisfaction, they get to strike.
6) During strike, company is required to make written offers via NMB every 2 days. Labor union retains right to accept or reject proposal to continue strike.

Simple. Let's change the regulations.

coopervane
02-02-2018, 05:13 PM
While I believe that it is NOT simple, I want to know why ALPA isnít dedicating a 100% APOLLO moon landing level effort to reverse the RLA.

THIS should be the 100% max effort we demand from our National Union. It negatively affects literally ALL PILOTS in the US.

queue
02-02-2018, 05:18 PM
While I believe that it is NOT simple, I want to know why ALPA isnít dedicating a 100% APOLLO moon landing level effort to reverse the RLA.

THIS should be the 100% max effort we demand from our National Union. It negatively affects literally ALL PILOTS in the US.

Yet the moon landing took less time...

Yes, big ALPA needs to do this. I agree. The best part is that it is no more difficult than posting on APC. Let's get the law changed!!! Don't wait for ALPA... we can do it ourselves. I'm going to be writing them soon. It would be nice if some ALPA person with better writing skills and knowledge could draft us a copy/paste letter for us to individually sign, print, and mail to our elected public servants.

Southerner
02-02-2018, 05:19 PM
While I believe that it is NOT simple, I want to know why ALPA isnít dedicating a 100% APOLLO moon landing level effort to reverse the RLA.



THIS should be the 100% max effort we demand from our National Union. It negatively affects literally ALL PILOTS in the US.



The RLA provides protections too. If it goes away, agency shop goes away. All Airlines will reincorporate in right-to-work states. Unionizing (or maintaining a union) will become nearly impossible. Yeah, it has some frustrating parts, but overall it is better than nothing. If it didn't exist, ALPA wouldn't exist.

queue
02-02-2018, 05:21 PM
The RLA provides protections too. If it goes away, agency shop goes away. All Airlines will reincorporate in right-to-work states. Unionizing (or maintaining a union) will become nearly impossible. Yeah, it has some frustrating parts, but overall it is better than nothing. If it didn't exist, ALPA wouldn't exist.

Let's thought experiment this out...

Option 1: Without RLA, couldn't we just assemble and stage a sick-out?

Option 2: Modify the RLA to include the timeline I proposed above.

Option 3: Dump RLA, replace with another law that gives US the power instead of the current company-centric RLA.

sailingfun
02-02-2018, 05:28 PM
While I believe that it is NOT simple, I want to know why ALPA isnít dedicating a 100% APOLLO moon landing level effort to reverse the RLA.

THIS should be the 100% max effort we demand from our National Union. It negatively affects literally ALL PILOTS in the US.

They have tried in the past. You are fighting all the airlines and Boeing. They have huge pockets and purchase all the support they need in Congress. ALPA can legally only use PAC money for lobbying. We toss out pennies while they toss out hundred dollar bills. Most pilots canít spare a dime for the PAC. In addition the entire purpose of the RLA is to prohibit interruptions of interstate commerce. WE canít even get a congressman to draft legislation to amend the RLA let alone get into committee.
A few years ago we did manage to get a small amount of traction in removing Fedex from the RLA. Their aircraft purchase contracts with Boeing include a clause to cancel if FedEx is removed from the RLA. Boeing money killed this concept fast.
Our elected official respond to two things, money and votes to get re-elected. Helping super rich pilots out at the expense of higher ticket prices is not good for re-election and the amount of money the PAC has is laughable.

Southerner
02-02-2018, 05:30 PM
Let's thought experiment this out...

Option 1: Without RLA, couldn't we just assemble and stage a sick-out?

Option 2: Modify the RLA to include the timeline I proposed above.

Option 3: Dump RLA, replace with another law that gives US the power instead of the current company-centric RLA.



Without legal protection, the company can just fire anyone who participates in a job action. Agency shop will be illegal.

I agree that there are lots of anti-labor provisions in the RLA, but there are also things in there that allow the unions to exist in the first place.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

queue
02-02-2018, 05:33 PM
They have tried in the past. You are fighting all the airlines and Boeing. They have huge pockets and purchase all the support they need in Congress. ALPA can legally only use PAC money for lobbying. We toss out pennies while they toss out hundred dollar bills. Most pilots canít spare a dime for the PAC. In addition the entire purpose of the RLA is to prohibit interruptions of interstate commerce. WE canít even get a congressman to draft legislation to amend the RLA let alone get into committee.
A few years ago we did manage to get a small amount of traction in removing Fedex from the RLA. Their aircraft purchase contracts with Boeing include a clause to cancel if FedEx is removed from the RLA. Boeing money killed this concept fast.
Our elected official respond to two things, money and votes to get re-elected. Helping super rich pilots out at the expense of higher ticket prices is not good for re-election and the amount of money the PAC has is laughable.

Well, let's just give up because the enemy says they will win.

Why not just keep up a monthly letter writing campaign. We can all do that and it costs us individually virtually nothing except maybe 10 minutes of time we didn't spend on APC.

We never know till we try. Every battle and every campaign is different. Sometimes it's better to be young.. you don't know or care about the odds.

Did we let the Germans win after they bombed Pearl Harbor?

queue
02-02-2018, 05:39 PM
Without legal protection, the company can just fire anyone who participates in a job action. Agency shop will be illegal.

I agree that there are lots of anti-labor provisions in the RLA, but there are also things in there that allow the unions to exist in the first place.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But obviously the performance is **** poor. JB likes it because they save millions and millions while raping pilots for years. ALPA likes it because it keeps them employed at 1.9%+. I hate it because it doesn't pay me what I'm worth.

Let's rewrite the RLA with all the same, and stronger protections, but with a timeline...

Am I understanding that you wouldn't agree to rewriting the RLA to make it better for us?

Southerner
02-02-2018, 05:45 PM
But obviously the performance is **** poor. JB likes it because they save millions and millions while raping pilots for years. ALPA likes it because it keeps them employed at 1.9%+. I hate it because it doesn't pay me what I'm worth.

Let's rewrite the RLA with all the same, and stronger protections, but with a timeline...

Am I understanding that you wouldn't agree to rewriting the RLA to make it better for us?



I didn't say that. Of course I'd like it to be written better. But that's not going to happen. There's too much money keeping the status quo.

What I do oppose is abolishing the RLA. That would be catastrophic. All airline unions would instantaneously become irrelevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BeatNavy
02-02-2018, 06:06 PM
I didn't say that. Of course I'd like it to be written better. But that's not going to happen. There's too much money keeping the status quo.

What I do oppose is abolishing the RLA. That would be catastrophic. All airline unions would instantaneously become irrelevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thatís rich...you want airline unions to protect your job, bargain for your contract, etc., but you wonít do the ONE thing the union asks you to do to support the cause and wear a lanyard. Or 2 things...since you werenít at the picket. Saw lots of your lanyardless broís in BOS today. Some rocket surgeons here think the (unionized) Patriots are gonna negotiate their contract, instead of ALPA. Laughable! Wish you guys would all quit and go to a unionless airline. At least we proved that we have enough unified pipe hitters to pull your dead weight at these things. Hope you enjoy the contract the rest of us are working for, as you work against us.

queue
02-02-2018, 06:09 PM
I didn't say that. Of course I'd like it to be written better. But that's not going to happen. There's too much money keeping the status quo.

What I do oppose is abolishing the RLA. That would be catastrophic. All airline unions would instantaneously become irrelevant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I wouldnít want to get rid of the RLA completely . I just want to amend it to force a timeline measured in a handful of months.

skater3260
02-02-2018, 06:22 PM
Yes, the RLA makes negotiating lengthy, but there are advantages it provides to the labor group that the NLRB does not which your ALPA legal rep can explain to you. One of the most important being a unified labor group versus multiple local union groups that are pitted against each other and subsequent whipsaw. Don't forget that the RLA mediation process can also delay paycuts in a downturn, and protects you from a management lockout.

Southerner
02-02-2018, 06:27 PM
Thatís rich...you want airline unions to protect your job, bargain for your contract, etc., but you wonít do the ONE thing the union asks you to do to support the cause and wear a lanyard. Or 2 things...since you werenít at the picket. Saw lots of your lanyardless broís in BOS today. Some rocket surgeons here think the (unionized) Patriots are gonna negotiate their contract, instead of ALPA. Laughable! Wish you guys would all quit and go to a unionless airline. At least we proved that we have enough unified pipe hitters to pull your dead weight at these things. Hope you enjoy the contract the rest of us are working for, as you work against us.


You're doing a lot for unity with posts like that. Good job.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BeatNavy
02-02-2018, 06:34 PM
You're doing a lot for unity with posts like that. Good job.


There is no unity with you. Youíve spoken. If you arenít with us, you are against us.

Southerner
02-02-2018, 06:42 PM
There is no unity with you. Youíve spoken. If you arenít with us, you are against us.



You aren't listening. I'm with you, but I choose to not wear the stupid lanyard. It isn't gonna happen now, or ever. If I were a non member, or discouraged people from joining, you'd be correct. But I do not agree that there's only one way to show support. And I don't care if you disagree. It's really irrelevant.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

hilltopflyer
02-02-2018, 06:45 PM
You aren't listening. I'm with you, but I choose to not wear the stupid lanyard. It isn't gonna happen now, or ever. If I were a non member, or discouraged people from joining, you'd be correct. But I do not agree that there's only one way to show support. And I don't care if you disagree. It's really irrelevant.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

But you won't do the one thing your leadership asked you to do. Little selfish.... so you aren't one of us.

PasserOGas
02-02-2018, 06:48 PM
Yes, the RLA makes negotiating lengthy, but there are advantages it provides to the labor group that the NLRB does not which your ALPA legal rep can explain to you. One of the most important being a unified labor group versus multiple local union groups that are pitted against each other and subsequent whipsaw. Don't forget that the RLA mediation process can also delay paycuts in a downturn, and protects you from a management lockout.


It used to protect against pay cuts, until Lorenzo discovered the "bankruptcy car wash".

Southerner
02-02-2018, 06:55 PM
But you won't do the one thing your leadership asked you to do. Little selfish.... so you aren't one of us.



Incorrect. The one thing they ask is that we join the union and pay dues. That's the one thing they ask...

They also ask additional requests:
That we participate in surveys. (I do)
That we vote (I do)
That we go to meetings (I do)
That we follow SOP (I do)

The only thing I refuse to do is wear the lanyard. I wear my ALPA pin. If that isn't enough, oh well.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BeatNavy
02-02-2018, 07:13 PM
Incorrect. The one thing they ask is that we join the union and pay dues. That's the one thing they ask...

They also ask additional requests:
That we participate in surveys. (I do)
That we vote (I do)
That we go to meetings (I do)
That we follow SOP (I do)

The only thing I refuse to do ya wear the lanyard. I wear my ALPA pin. If that isn't enough, oh well.


I just reread the last few emails to make sure I wasn’t missing something. Not one mentioned those things above except flying SOP, but you should be doing that anyway. Those are standard membership basics. Being a member doesn’t mean you support the union or help the cause. They did, however, mention that we are in a labor dispute, and the things we need to do accordingly. “Wearing your lanyard is no longer enough.”

The things they actually ask:
That you wear a lanyard (you don’t)
That you go to a rally (you didn’t)
That you stand next to your brothers and sisters at the picket (you didn’t).

Ask yourself, if 0 pilots showed up for the picket, would the company give anything at the negotiating table? So why didn’t you contribute? If 0 pilots wore a lanyard and didn’t do what the union asked, would the company think there is any unity or backing of the union? So where is yours?

F&H doesn’t measure unity with ALPA pins. They do see lanyards and numbers at the picket. Again, we will keep rowing the boat, and you can keep floating in your dinghy, laying there by yourself tethered to the boat we are rowing. We will pull your deadweight along, even as you paddle against us. The union is stronger than the few individuals like you remaining.

citxls
02-02-2018, 09:13 PM
Iíve come to realize flying with the lanyardless (with exception of one who is anti company AND anti union) is probably the single most frustrating thing to deal with. Labor dispute aside, operationally itís just aggravating. All about them, could care less about anyone else because ďthey got theirs.Ē

Bluedriver
02-03-2018, 06:55 AM
Iíve come to realize flying with the lanyardless (with exception of one who is anti company AND anti union) is probably the single most frustrating thing to deal with. Labor dispute aside, operationally itís just aggravating. All about them, could care less about anyone else because ďthey got theirs.Ē

There is some truth to this.

Tduster13
02-03-2018, 12:45 PM
People need to come to terms that itís a historical trend that hidden entities want B6 out of the picture
Only time will prove me wrong or right

Final Clear
02-03-2018, 02:05 PM
People need to come to terms that itís a historical trend that hidden entities want B6 out of the picture
Only time will prove me wrong or right

The Illuminati or the Masons?

Hey jetblue...FUPM,
FC

dontsurf
02-03-2018, 04:51 PM
People need to come to terms that itís a historical trend that hidden entities want B6 out of the picture

i keep reading this, and i don't know what it means. i can't figure it out.


Only time will prove me wrong or right

you could say that about anything. you don't seem very sure of yourself.

Tduster13
02-04-2018, 06:20 AM
People in the past couldn't imagine Pan Am or Twa will ever go bust , it was unthinkable, but events and events after events that were taken for granted and i am not talking about PA103, facilitate the shutdown and still blames going back and forth between various parties as who was responsible.
lately some were saved by mergers or being pushed for a merger.
Bottom line don't get shocked if anything happens not only B6, but others as well as even the untouchables today DL, AA, UA etc....
Me being wrong or right is just a false hope, but reality in near future B6 will cease to exist like the others in past.
Capitalism has its share of failures

pilotpayne
02-04-2018, 06:59 AM
People in the past couldn't imagine Pan Am or Twa will ever go bust , it was unthinkable, but events and events after events that were taken for granted and i am not talking about PA103, facilitate the shutdown and still blames going back and forth between various parties as who was responsible.
lately some were saved by mergers or being pushed for a merger.
Bottom line don't get shocked if anything happens not only B6, but others as well as even the untouchables today DL, AA, UA etc....
Me being wrong or right is just a false hope, but reality in near future B6 will cease to exist like the others in past.
Capitalism has its share of failures

Um what?
Yeah any airline can go away but you canít look at Pan Am and JetBlue the same way. Even Pan Am knew it had problems. Read skygods itís a great book.

For some reason there is this idea that JetBlue is failing finically and that simply is not the case. For all the talk of the poor operation or the crap route structure or the junk 190s the company still has some of the highest margins.
Iím not cheerleading here but JetBlue isnít just got my to go away. Maybe a merger with ALK one day but for all itís faults the company is financially very strong.

PasserOGas
02-04-2018, 07:10 AM
People in the past couldn't imagine Pan Am or Twa will ever go bust , it was unthinkable, but events and events after events that were taken for granted and i am not talking about PA103, facilitate the shutdown and still blames going back and forth between various parties as who was responsible.
lately some were saved by mergers or being pushed for a merger.
Bottom line don't get shocked if anything happens not only B6, but others as well as even the untouchables today DL, AA, UA etc....
Me being wrong or right is just a false hope, but reality in near future B6 will cease to exist like the others in past.
Capitalism has its share of failures

Please just stop. B6 is debt free and just finished buying $3B worth of stock. The company can afford to pay us and they will or we will eventually strike. Tell the partners at Ford and Harrison I said hi.

Tduster13
02-04-2018, 07:23 AM
the same thing people said in the old days, no way Pan Am will have financial difficulties, they were idolized worldwide, people thought Pan Am is a national airline and that s all there is in USA.
That's why i said time will tell, and I really hope this thing with pilots doesn't drag on, especially airlines around B6 are "healthy QOL sort of speak."

goinaround
02-04-2018, 07:30 AM
the same thing people said in the old days, no way Pan Am will have financial difficulties, they were idolized worldwide, people thought Pan Am is a national airline and that s all there is in USA.
That's why i said time will tell, and I really hope this thing with pilots doesn't drag on, especially airlines around B6 are "healthy QOL sort of speak."

https://pics.me.me/the-ultimate-insult-is-sleeping-around-lepoint-what-you-just-15636297.png

Hercbubba
02-04-2018, 08:33 AM
When somebody joins APC and starts ranting about a pro company agenda...just ignore them and move on. Itís obvious They are with the company. Nobody joins a chat room this late in the game and starts supporting the company. 6 posts since last month doesnít give them any street cred. Also, if somebody doesnít wear a lanyard, but says they support the union, they are just showing how ignorant they are. If you truly supported the cause, you would do the simple things the union asks.
ďOh, itís so hard to put my lanyard on when I walk out the door before workĒ.
Weak people justify why they donít do something so they can feel strong...itís basic fear on their part!

Tduster13
02-04-2018, 09:45 AM
I don't suport the company, my point is pilots and anyone thinks B6 is a great company are simply naives, after all these decades، unfortunately there are still naive people in the country believe corporate America is bunch of angelic divine.

slimothy
02-04-2018, 11:36 AM
I don't suport the company, my point is pilots and anyone thinks B6 is a great company are simply naives, after all these decades، unfortunately there are still naive people in the country believe corporate America is bunch of angelic divine.

Dude. Are the Russians trying to meddle in our negotiation?

CaptCoolHand
02-04-2018, 01:55 PM
Iíve come to realize flying with the lanyardless (with exception of one who is anti company AND anti union) is probably the single most frustrating thing to deal with. Labor dispute aside, operationally itís just aggravating. All about them, could care less about anyone else because ďthey got theirs.Ē

Itís a toss up between the lanyardless and the guys who have secret FFD pins. With very little exception. You can tell how a trip is going to go.

queue
02-04-2018, 06:13 PM
People in the past couldn't imagine Pan Am or Twa will ever go bust , it was unthinkable, but events and events after events that were taken for granted and i am not talking about PA103, facilitate the shutdown and still blames going back and forth between various parties as who was responsible.
lately some were saved by mergers or being pushed for a merger.
Bottom line don't get shocked if anything happens not only B6, but others as well as even the untouchables today DL, AA, UA etc....
Me being wrong or right is just a false hope, but reality in near future B6 will cease to exist like the others in past.
Capitalism has its share of failures

Any company that makes profit off paying employees less than they're worth or a "fare wage" don't deserve to exist. Don't confuse what I'm saying with the BS of a "living wage" or some other socialist concept. I don't agree with California paying $15/hr for Junior High level (7th,8th grade) job skills.

What I'm saying is that a hospital will not/should not stay open for business if they want to pay doctors $15/hr. JB exists because pilots are too pacified to demand what they are worth. It's the same reason that the regionals exist. If we demand that JB pay us market rate, and JB can't stay afloat financially, then they shouldn't exist! Think about it... could I run a computer company if I paid for software engineers at 40% of industry rate? Who would work for that company? So if that company could only exist by raping its employees, then it deserves what it gets through market forces. There's nothing stopping us from lending our skills to another more grateful employer or becoming an employer ourselves.

I think we need to stop subsidizing our employer through sub-standard wages, company friendly work rules, and subsidized incidental expenses (e.g. company use of our cell phones for company business, crashpads, etc.).

pilotpayne
02-04-2018, 06:43 PM
Any company that makes profit off paying employees less than they're worth or a "fare wage" don't deserve to exist. Don't confuse what I'm saying with the BS of a "living wage" or some other socialist concept. I don't agree with California paying $15/hr for Junior High level (7th,8th grade) job skills.

What I'm saying is that a hospital will not/should not stay open for business if they want to pay doctors $15/hr. JB exists because pilots are too pacified to demand what they are worth. It's the same reason that the regionals exist. If we demand that JB pay us market rate, and JB can't stay afloat financially, then they shouldn't exist! Think about it... could I run a computer company if I paid for software engineers at 40% of industry rate? Who would work for that company? So if that company could only exist by raping its employees, then it deserves what it gets through market forces. There's nothing stopping us from lending our skills to another more grateful employer or becoming an employer ourselves.

I think we need to stop subsidizing our employer through sub-standard wages, company friendly work rules, and subsidized incidental expenses (e.g. company use of our cell phones for company business, crashpads, etc.).


Um thats what we are doing

citxls
02-04-2018, 08:59 PM
Itís a toss up between the lanyardless and the guys who have secret FFD pins. With very little exception. You can tell how a trip is going to go.

Forgot about that one, not being copy paste is a huge red flag.

With regard to the Boston strike, better get on Flica and pickup trips through BOS.

hyperboy
02-05-2018, 07:43 AM
Itís a toss up between the lanyardless and the guys who have secret FFD pins. With very little exception. You can tell how a trip is going to go.


I have an FFD pin that is not the same as my Employee number.:eek:

CaptCoolHand
02-05-2018, 08:14 AM
I have an FFD pin that is not the same as my Employee number.:eek:

Dude...
somehow I am not surprised 😆

pilotpayne
02-05-2018, 11:36 AM
I have an FFD pin that is not the same as my Employee number.:eek:

On no.
Thatís the first test.....fail

Bluedriver
02-05-2018, 11:55 AM
I have an FFD pin that is not the same as my Employee number.:eek:
And I bet you use one hand to cover the other while you type it in! I've seen it, it's disturbing on soo many levels.

This is fail number 28 for Hypergirl.

hilltopflyer
02-05-2018, 03:24 PM
And I bet you use one hand to cover the other while you type it in! I've seen it, it's disturbing on soo many levels.

This is fail number 28 for Hypergirl.

Have you really?

aewanabe
02-05-2018, 05:07 PM
And I bet you use one hand to cover the other while you type it in! I've seen it, it's disturbing on soo many levels.

This is fail number 28 for Hypergirl.

Huh. My FFD isn’t copy-paste, because it also entails me signing for the release. You signing the release for me when I haven’t even looked at it is a big no-no, especially when I’m telling the DX we need V2 for the missing TLR, or an amendment to add an alternate, etc etc etc....

In this great company ‘culture’ we have, there has been at least one Captain I personally know of who got some unpaid time off for signing the release when it wasn’t technically legal. If that makes me ‘one of those guys’ I’m gonna have to live with it.

(ETA: I don’t cover the MCDU when I enter it, and what I usually do is explain why to the FO, then let him/her enter the pin for me if I’ve actually had time to read the 26 pages of taxiway edge light NOTAMS....)

PasserOGas
02-05-2018, 07:01 PM
I have an FFD pin that is not the same as my Employee number.:eek:

Lol, I hate to break it to you, but you are "that guy".

BeatNavy
02-06-2018, 02:00 AM
Huh. My FFD isn’t copy-paste, because it also entails me signing for the release. You signing the release for me when I haven’t even looked at it is a big no-no, especially when I’m telling the DX we need V2 for the missing TLR, or an amendment to add an alternate, etc etc etc....

In this great company ‘culture’ we have, there has been at least one Captain I personally know of who got some unpaid time off for signing the release when it wasn’t technically legal. If that makes me ‘one of those guys’ I’m gonna have to live with it.

(ETA: I don’t cover the MCDU when I enter it, and what I usually do is explain why to the FO, then let him/her enter the pin for me if I’ve actually had time to read the 26 pages of taxiway edge light NOTAMS....)


Lol. Here’s how this works if it’s the FOs leg for the other 99%. FO sets up box (to include entering/printing both FFDs). You still look at the release as you normally do. You notice something off. You call dispatch and get it amended/V2. You still have that ability (and responsibility) even if the FO does the FFD. I’ve had one CA, and only one CA, in 2 years, insist on doing it himself. Sorry, but you are “that guy.”

Do you do the FO’s FFD? You seem hung up on “signing for the release,” but affirming oneself fit is also required, just as much so as a release being signed for. So in your 1% world you can’t do that for the other person. By your logic, you affirming the FO is fit for duty is wrong, and if you do it, the FO has no opportunity to sign saying he/she is actually fit for duty.

By someone else entering a PIN, they aren’t taking away an opportunity for you to find or acknowledge a mistake, and when the CA shows up and looks at the release, with his FFD already printed, he can still find a mistake in the release or realize he isn’t fit and can remove himself from the flight. He still hands the printout to the gate agent and says he’s ready to go. That should be a good indication he’s looked at the release and accepts it.

A few weeks ago I had a CA say when I first sat down “my PIN is my emp number, I’m a team player...I hear there are a couple out there who aren’t. I’m not one of them.” Welcome to the 1% club. Curious, do a lot of your trips end up in open time?

Edit: the person who got time off didn’t get time off because the FO “signed for the release.” He got time off because he missed something and left the gate. The person who entered his PIN is irrelevant...him not catching the mistake on the release is what mattered. Again, just Bc the FO enters the FFD doesn’t mean CAs don’t look at the release. And fwiw, of all the check airmen I’ve flown with here, exactly 0 have done it like you.

feltf4
02-06-2018, 03:36 AM
Huh. My FFD isnít copy-paste, because it also entails me signing for the release. You signing the release for me when I havenít even looked at it is a big no-no, especially when Iím telling the DX we need V2 for the missing TLR, or an amendment to add an alternate, etc etc etc....

In this great company Ďcultureí we have, there has been at least one Captain I personally know of who got some unpaid time off for signing the release when it wasnít technically legal. If that makes me Ďone of those guysí Iím gonna have to live with it.

(ETA: I donít cover the MCDU when I enter it, and what I usually do is explain why to the FO, then let him/her enter the pin for me if Iíve actually had time to read the 26 pages of taxiway edge light NOTAMS....)


Lol (filler)

Bluedriver
02-06-2018, 05:17 AM
Have you really?

Absolutely. At least once, maybe twice.

It's very double take worthy. And triple face-palm worthy.

Bluedriver
02-06-2018, 05:20 AM
Huh. My FFD isnít copy-paste, because it also entails me signing for the release. You signing the release for me when I havenít even looked at it is a big no-no, especially when Iím telling the DX we need V2 for the missing TLR, or an amendment to add an alternate, etc etc etc....

In this great company Ďcultureí we have, there has been at least one Captain I personally know of who got some unpaid time off for signing the release when it wasnít technically legal. If that makes me Ďone of those guysí Iím gonna have to live with it.

(ETA: I donít cover the MCDU when I enter it, and what I usually do is explain why to the FO, then let him/her enter the pin for me if Iíve actually had time to read the 26 pages of taxiway edge light NOTAMS....)

You're good. I do NOT copy-paste the other dude without express prior consent. Period, ever.

But I'm sure some guys do, which is something that needs to change.

Bluedriver
02-06-2018, 05:28 AM
Lol. Hereís how this works if itís the FOs leg for the other 99%. FO sets up box (to include entering/printing both FFDs). You still look at the release as you normally do. You notice something off. You call dispatch and get it amended/V2. You still have that ability (and responsibility) even if the FO does the FFD. Iíve had one CA, and only one CA, in 2 years, insist on doing it himself. Sorry, but you are ďthat guy.Ē

Do you do the FOís FFD? You seem hung up on ďsigning for the release,Ē but affirming oneself fit is also required, just as much so as a release being signed for. So in your 1% world you canít do that for the other person. By your logic, you affirming the FO is fit for duty is wrong, and if you do it, the FO has no opportunity to sign saying he/she is actually fit for duty.

By someone else entering a PIN, they arenít taking away an opportunity for you to find or acknowledge a mistake, and when the CA shows up and looks at the release, with his FFD already printed, he can still find a mistake in the release or realize he isnít fit and can remove himself from the flight. He still hands the printout to the gate agent and says heís ready to go. That should be a good indication heís looked at the release and accepts it.

A few weeks ago I had a CA say when I first sat down ďmy PIN is my emp number, Iím a team player...I hear there are a couple out there who arenít. Iím not one of them.Ē Welcome to the 1% club. Curious, do a lot of your trips end up in open time?

Edit: the person who got time off didnít get time off because the FO ďsigned for the release.Ē He got time off because he missed something and left the gate. The person who entered his PIN is irrelevant...him not catching the mistake on the release is what mattered. Again, just Bc the FO enters the FFD doesnít mean CAs donít look at the release. And fwiw, of all the check airmen Iíve flown with here, exactly 0 have done it like you.

So I also agree here. I personally don't copy-paste without at least one briefing saying"if I'm here, I'm fit". That's me, but Navy is correct on most of it.

I will just say be very careful signing the other pilots FFD without prior permission or before he was arrived. It is in fact against FARs and stated (written) company policy to ever sign another's FFD (or signing for the release) even WITH permission to do so.

I'm only saying be careful how and when you do either of those things.

Having said that, I'm cut-n-paste and I will send both post the original briefing saying "if I'm here I'm fit".

As far finding a mistake in the RLS post electronic signing, no big deal as long as you don't block out. You always have the right to "catch" a mistake, even after pressing the "sign" button.

Don't be a dork. Kidding, kinda.

BeatNavy
02-06-2018, 06:07 AM
To caveat my previous since it was brought up, I of course wait until the other guy is present and we have discussed it at the beginning of a pairing. If Iíve flown with them before then Iíll do it if they are there but not there (doing the walk around or something).

aewanabe
02-06-2018, 06:15 AM
Lol. Hereís how this works if itís the FOs leg for the other 99%. FO sets up box (to include entering/printing both FFDs). You still look at the release as you normally do. You notice something off. You call dispatch and get it amended/V2. You still have that ability (and responsibility) even if the FO does the FFD. Iíve had one CA, and only one CA, in 2 years, insist on doing it himself. Sorry, but you are ďthat guy.Ē

Do you do the FOís FFD? You seem hung up on ďsigning for the release,Ē but affirming oneself fit is also required, just as much so as a release being signed for. So in your 1% world you canít do that for the other person. By your logic, you affirming the FO is fit for duty is wrong, and if you do it, the FO has no opportunity to sign saying he/she is actually fit for duty.

By someone else entering a PIN, they arenít taking away an opportunity for you to find or acknowledge a mistake, and when the CA shows up and looks at the release, with his FFD already printed, he can still find a mistake in the release or realize he isnít fit and can remove himself from the flight. He still hands the printout to the gate agent and says heís ready to go. That should be a good indication heís looked at the release and accepts it.

A few weeks ago I had a CA say when I first sat down ďmy PIN is my emp number, Iím a team player...I hear there are a couple out there who arenít. Iím not one of them.Ē Welcome to the 1% club. Curious, do a lot of your trips end up in open time?

Edit: the person who got time off didnít get time off because the FO ďsigned for the release.Ē He got time off because he missed something and left the gate. The person who entered his PIN is irrelevant...him not catching the mistake on the release is what mattered. Again, just Bc the FO enters the FFD doesnít mean CAs donít look at the release. And fwiw, of all the check airmen Iíve flown with here, exactly 0 have done it like you.

Itís cool. I chimed in because Iíve been a CA here for 5 years, weíve been doing the FFD pony show for 4 years, and this is the first Iíve heard of it making you ďthat guyĒ.

If the FO tells me ďIím copy-paste, if Iím here send itĒ, then I do. But I also wonít do it without their consent first. For me itís not about who sends the release verification, itís the whole idea that Iíve signed it before I even get a chance to look.

FWIW, I donít wear long sleeves, tell guys Iím ďlaid backĒ, or any of the other normal triggers.... Iíve never been a one-percenter in looks, jokes, airmanship, or athletic ability, so if this is gonna be my thing Iím gonna have to live with it:). Cheers.

Bluedriver
02-06-2018, 07:33 AM
Itís cool. I chimed in because Iíve been a CA here for 5 years, weíve been doing the FFD pony show for 4 years, and this is the first Iíve heard of it making you ďthat guyĒ.

If the FO tells me ďIím copy-paste, if Iím here send itĒ, then I do. But I also wonít do it without their consent first. For me itís not about who sends the release verification, itís the whole idea that Iíve signed it before I even get a chance to look.

FWIW, I donít wear long sleeves, tell guys Iím ďlaid backĒ, or any of the other normal triggers.... Iíve never been a one-percenter in looks, jokes, airmanship, or athletic ability, so if this is gonna be my thing Iím gonna have to live with it:). Cheers.

You're probably not really "that guy".

I've even met 1 or 2 FFDOs that weren't complete tools. Exceptions to EVERY rule do exist. Except the lanyard rule. No lanyard always means company tool.

hyperboy
02-06-2018, 09:36 AM
And I bet you use one hand to cover the other while you type it in! I've seen it, it's disturbing on soo many levels.

This is fail number 28 for Hypergirl.

It's funny that you can continue to attack me. You can call me up and be a man about it rather that playing 7th grade politics, making fun of people on the keyboard and acting like your the boss of the halls. You have my number. Man up if thats even possible?

say again
02-06-2018, 09:39 AM
You're probably not really "that guy".

I've even met 1 or 2 FFDOs that weren't complete tools. Exceptions to EVERY rule do exist. Except the lanyard rule. No lanyard always means company tool.

Now FFDO's are tools too? :rolleyes:

hyperboy
02-06-2018, 09:57 AM
Now FFDO's are tools too? :rolleyes:


What I think we are discovering is that BlueDriver is actually that guy. The FO that thinks he is the CA of the Right seat. I call it "RPIC time" Right seat PIC. Got several of those on the 190.

The one that hides the release from the PIC like it's Easter Sunday. The one that makes the CA wonder if we are gonna actually be able to get this thing in the air. Has no one to talk to in the cockpit because the CA's want to live another day, until they can get home and hang themselves with that non-company "holiday" tie their kid got them for Christmas!

So he heads over to APC to cowardly bully others. Handle your business BD!.....you man of a pilot.

queue
02-08-2018, 02:19 PM
What I think we are discovering is that BlueDriver is actually that guy. The FO that thinks he is the CA of the Right seat. I call it "RPIC time" Right seat PIC. Got several of those on the 190.

The one that hides the release from the PIC like it's Easter Sunday. The one that makes the CA wonder if we are gonna actually be able to get this thing in the air. Has no one to talk to in the cockpit because the CA's want to live another day, until they can get home and hang themselves with that non-company "holiday" tie their kid got them for Christmas!

So he heads over to APC to cowardly bully others. Handle your business BD!.....you man of a pilot.

Come on guys. Don't let your "role" in the cockpit go to your heads. You are civilians with no legal authority over one another. Anyone can just walk off the job anytime they want and flip you the bird. Don't let some BS company title go to your head. A PIC can't send you to jail for disobeying his wishes.

Bluedriver
02-08-2018, 03:26 PM
What I think we are discovering is that BlueDriver is actually that guy. The FO that thinks he is the CA of the Right seat. I call it "RPIC time" Right seat PIC. Got several of those on the 190.

The one that hides the release from the PIC like it's Easter Sunday. The one that makes the CA wonder if we are gonna actually be able to get this thing in the air. Has no one to talk to in the cockpit because the CA's want to live another day, until they can get home and hang themselves with that non-company "holiday" tie their kid got them for Christmas!

So he heads over to APC to cowardly bully others. Handle your business BD!.....you man of a pilot.

I forgot about this stupid post... I'm anything but an FO captain hyper. Wrong again.

I've been a 121 Capt, seen the right seat captain bit a few times, that ain't me...

queue
02-27-2018, 04:22 PM
So what happened with the strike? Did they get $$$ ?

P-3Bubba
02-27-2018, 05:39 PM
Nope. Strike was busted by random people wearing tattered and worn tailored dark suits and BLUE gloves!!!!!

Remember, always rat out a non-cleaner.

-Bubs



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