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View Full Version : Looking to the Future


Beechsierra
02-05-2018, 11:51 AM
Looking to get some advice and info. I am a current regional FO at Envoy. The flow is a great backup plan but have always wanted to fly for Southwest. I am still pretty new to the 121 world but would love to hear some thoughts on what it takes to get hired on at Southwest. It seems like right now guys only get hired with 5-10,000 hours. I am currently at 1700 so I have a ways to go. What are y'alls thoughts on hiring in the next few years? Will the minimums to get on with Southwest come down? It may be a long shot but I was hoping by the time I am closing in on 3,000 hours to have a shot. Anyway thanks in advance for your thoughts


utahpilot
02-05-2018, 01:45 PM
become a captain at your airline, then ASAP a LCA, instructor, something that makes you different than the avg pilot. Rack up hours, stay in touch with anyone and everyone you know who goes to Southwest. Apply, update often.

Lotsa dudes in the applicant pool with TT much much higher than yours, but who knows what the future holds. Seems the only 'low time' guys that get on are military.

G'luck

flensr
02-05-2018, 05:19 PM
SWA doesn't have the huge numbers of mandatory retirements that some of the other major/legacy airlines do, but they do have a steady increase in retirements over the next several years. So basically keep your application updated and they'll tell you when you make the cut.


Wingsuit
02-06-2018, 09:45 AM
become a captain at your airline, then ASAP a LCA, instructor, something that makes you different than the avg pilot. Rack up hours, stay in touch with anyone and everyone you know who goes to Southwest. Apply, update often.

I did just this. 6600 TT 1350 TPIC check airman soon after I had upgraded. Hired August 2017

Smokey23
02-06-2018, 01:48 PM
There's still the 73-type option. Nothing says I REALLY want to work for SWA louder than that. I know it hurts even more now in this environment to shell out $$$$ on the hope of a job offer, but if it gets you here even a year sooner, it would be a worthwhile investment.

stfoley23
02-14-2018, 07:35 PM
I am also looking into SWA in the future. If i got an offer from Delta or some other airline before SWA where I could maybe get into the 737, would it be wise to take that and then transfer to SWA when the call comes or just hold out at a regional for SWA?

Peacock
02-14-2018, 08:37 PM
I am also looking into SWA in the future. If i got an offer from Delta or some other airline before SWA where I could maybe get into the 737, would it be wise to take that and then transfer to SWA when the call comes or just hold out at a regional for SWA?
Is this a joke? Are you seriously asking whether to go to Delta or stay at a regional?

TommyBoI
02-14-2018, 10:03 PM
I am also looking into SWA in the future. If i got an offer from Delta or some other airline before SWA where I could maybe get into the 737, would it be wise to take that and then transfer to SWA when the call comes or just hold out at a regional for SWA?
http://s.quickmeme.com/img/0b/0ba41f273603018208e055cd83d9082dc262e03871e053fb4b 9c778b2205d6f9.jpg

at6d
02-15-2018, 01:56 AM
Is this a joke? Are you seriously asking whether to go to Delta or stay at a regional?

Has got to be trolling. With a fleet.

Snowflyer
03-16-2018, 01:07 PM
Thought I would tag on to this thread instead of starting a new one.

Looking at the next couple years, I'll meet minimums in the next few months, but trying to decide my next step to best add to my chances. Would welcome opinions.

1) upgrading to captain at current 135. Able to get roughly 800 hours a year as PIC. (Time does count as 121 qualifying) also will have opportunity for adding line airman, acp, training etc.

2) get a couple hundred hours of PIC, non qualifying 121, then move over to a regional as SIC. Due to training and reserve less hours over the next couple years but it would check the 121 box and get an additional type rating with hours in "a real jet."

Didn't go the cfi route so I'm inclined towards the first option for the PIC time.

Thoughts?

Ivana Humpalot
03-16-2018, 01:44 PM
I'm not trying to start something but what's the difference between the kid with 1,700TT and the military jet jockey with 1,700TT over the last 20 years?

ZapBrannigan
03-16-2018, 02:04 PM
I'm not trying to start something but what's the difference between the kid with 1,700TT and the military jet jockey with 1,700TT over the last 20 years?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/898b8d99d8db682a92888b668f688bbc.jpg



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slimothy
03-16-2018, 02:08 PM
I'm not trying to start something but what's the difference between the kid with 1,700TT and the military jet jockey with 1,700TT over the last 20 years?

The dynamics and workload associated with the types of flying. The maturity level and cognitive function required to lead multiple aircraft into a combat situation, and deploying ordinance in close proximity to friendly forces demonstrates a higher level of proficiency than does landing a twin Cessna on a 8,000 Ft runway.

PS, Iím not a mil jet guy, Iím a former RW guy who has 1200 hours of flight time that most majors donít even consider actual flight time.

slimothy
03-16-2018, 02:09 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180316/898b8d99d8db682a92888b668f688bbc.jpg



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Lol

Filler

TransWorld
03-16-2018, 02:20 PM
The dynamics and workload associated with the types of flying. The maturity level and cognitive function required to lead multiple aircraft into a combat situation, and deploying ordinance in close proximity to friendly forces demonstrates a higher level of proficiency than does landing a twin Cessna on a 8,000 Ft runway.

PS, Iím not a mil jet guy, Iím a former RW guy who has 1200 hours of flight time that most majors donít even consider actual flight time.

Letís see. Cessna on an 8,000 ft runway.

Being shot at. Then flying a jet and landing on a carrier. Having to catch a cable with a tail hook or go swimming.

Yeah, there is a bit of difference.

Warhawg01
03-16-2018, 02:37 PM
Because there is more airmanship in any one of the fighter guyís hours than any 100 of the other guys.

Paging Wackmaster and his ďbut, but... we land at busy airports and stuff...Ē

To which any fighter dude that has flown in an LFE launch and recovery (which is almost all of them) just chuckles and says ďthatís cute.Ē

ZapBrannigan
03-16-2018, 03:34 PM
Well... at least we all know what you Mil guys think of us now. [emoji52]


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slimothy
03-16-2018, 04:22 PM
Well... at least we all know what you Mil guys think of us now. [emoji52]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I donít think I said anything disparaging about pure CIV flying, but you can hardly compare 1700 hours of flight instruction (Iíd say typically almost all piston) to 1700 of F-whatever time. If somebody wants to do the math, subtract 150kts from the speed of sound, and thereís the big difference. And again, Iíve never flown any military jets, so Iím not bragging up my own experience here.

RJSAviator76
03-16-2018, 05:03 PM
Because there is more airmanship in any one of the fighter guy’s hours than any 100 of the other guys.

How does anything that a Weapons School grad F-teener does translate into 121 ops? Sorry bud, but quite a few F-teeners don't know sh!t from shinola in 121 ops and generally tend to have a much more difficult time transitioning than regional or even corporate guys, and yet everyone puts up with it. Sorry dude, no LFE launches, no ingress or egress routes here, no JTAC's, no SAM threats (usually), SEAD isn't necessary (unless maybe if landing on the south side at LAX), and the worst of it... we don't do 3-hour preflight briefs.


To which any fighter dude that has flown in an LFE launch and recovery (which is almost all of them) just chuckles and says “that’s cute.”

And that same dude is 'blind' before even pushing back here.

Congrats on getting off probation Warhawg, but humility goes a long way.

GatorHog
03-16-2018, 05:10 PM
Well this thread went to sh!t in a hurry. This has been debated ad nauseum in 50 different places on APC. Move on.

slimothy
03-16-2018, 05:32 PM
How does anything that a Weapons School grad F-teener does translate into 121 ops? Sorry bud, but quite a few F-teeners don't know sh!t from shinola in 121 ops and generally tend to have a much more difficult time transitioning than regional or even corporate guys, and yet everyone puts up with it. Sorry dude, no LFE launches, no ingress or egress routes here, no JTAC's, no SAM threats (usually), SEAD isn't necessary (unless maybe if landing on the south side at LAX), and the worst of it... we don't do 3-hour preflight briefs.



And that same dude is 'blind' before even pushing back here.

Congrats on getting off probation Warhawg, but humility goes a long way.

Know a lot of regional and corporate guys getting hired at SWA with 1700 hours, do ya? The OP was comparing 1700 fighter hours to 1700 civilian hours.

RJSAviator76
03-16-2018, 05:46 PM
Know a lot of regional and corporate guys getting hired at SWA with 1700 hours, do ya? The OP was comparing 1700 fighter hours to 1700 civilian hours.


It doesnít take 1700 hours to fly any of these aircraft. Matter of fact, there are 200 hour pilots in Europe in the right seat of the very same airplane every brand new major airline pilot starts on with time on nothing bigger than a small GA twin in their logbook. There are 3500 hour 737/A320 captains in Europe too. Hell, with those hours, one STILL isnít really competitive here...

Rightly or wrongly, in this country, thereís an inherent bias in favor of the mil types, and it stems from the stronger social and professional networking among the mil crowd than their civ counterparts. There is no other logical explanation. Embrace it, appreciate it, be grateful for it, and be humble about it... Most do and are humble, but just like with everything else, thereís always that 1% factor that somehow feels they need to swing their weenies around, and at this stage, itís stupid and unnecessary.

slimothy
03-16-2018, 06:12 PM
It doesnít take 1700 hours to fly any of these aircraft. Matter of fact, there are 200 hour pilots in Europe in the right seat of the very same airplane every brand new major airline pilot starts on with time on nothing bigger than a small GA twin in their logbook. There are 3500 hour 737/A320 captains in Europe too. Hell, with those hours, one STILL isnít really competitive here...

Rightly or wrongly, in this country, thereís an inherent bias in favor of the mil types, and it stems from the stronger social and professional networking among the mil crowd than their civ counterparts. There is no other logical explanation. Embrace it, appreciate it, be grateful for it, and be humble about it... Most do and are humble, but just like with everything else, thereís always that 1% factor that somehow feels they need to swing their weenies around, and at this stage, itís stupid and unnecessary.


So much here to unwrap. First, please give me the names of the European companies who are allowing 200 hour pilots in 737s so I can make sure my family never boards one of their planes. Iím hoping you donít advocate such ridiculous low mins for US carriers, because thatís how Iím reading it.

Second, if your point about why military pilots have an inside track were true, then I would not have been laughed out of my logbook review at my first SWA interview for including 1200 RW hours in my 2800 military hours.

Warhawg01
03-16-2018, 06:45 PM
Well... at least we all know what you Mil guys think of us now. [emoji52]


I donít know much about you Zap or your background, and donít assume anything one way or the other. I do know you have a lot more experience than I do in 121 and Iíve learned a lot from reading your posts the past year. If I met you, Iíd pay for the beers and ask you all sorts of dumb questions, just like I did for my sim partner in new hire training.

Same goes for RJSAviator, who asked what makes a fighter guy so relevant for 121 Ops. I would agree with most of what you said, but that wasnít my point. Go reread post #11 asking about 1700 civ Hours vs 1700 fighter. I answered that, and that only.... okay, with some extra snark directed at Wackmaster. After a year of his schtick that fighter pilots are unqualified to be here, and flying upside down, I couldnít resist.

Please donít project some dumba$$ arrogant fighter jerkís attitude onto me when I said no such thing.

And briefs were 50 minutes, RJS. Not three hours.

FlyingPirate
03-16-2018, 07:37 PM
So much here to unwrap. First, please give me the names of the European companies who are allowing 200 hour pilots in 737s so I can make sure my family never boards one of their planes. Iím hoping you donít advocate such ridiculous low mins for US carriers, because thatís how Iím reading it.

Ok. I'll bite. I instructed for the premiere ab initio flight school in Europe for a few years, so here are my thoughts.

All of the pilots to through a very stringent selection process before being admitted to the flight schools (something the civilian side of flying neglects, unfortunately) then spend over a year in classrooms before touching an airplane. Then they would send them to the U.S. to complete primary flight training up through their multi commercial license. They would typically finish the program with just over 200 hours of flight time then proceed to new hire training at pretty much any European airline (Ryan Air, KLM, Lufthansa, Air Lingus, British Airways, you name it) flying an Airbus or Boeing. The airlines based much of who they hired on the student's training record among other things. The thing is... these guys were incredibly sharp and some of the best pilots I have ever seen, even at a the very elementary level I trained them at. I would put them up against 75% of the pilots at majors right now (both military and civilian trained); myself included.

I am all for ab initio training here in the U.S., I think it provides the best of both worlds; A very selective applicant pool and demanding training standards with a specific focus on airline ops.

at6d
03-16-2018, 10:14 PM
Nobody is comparing a 1700 hour mil guy with a 1700 hour CFI in this ballpark.

Letís compare the 7000 hour, multiple 121 type regional captain applicant with the 1700 hour viper guy.

Letís actually not...but thatís what we see in new hire training.

The 1700 hour mil vs. civ with the same time is apples/oranges/trolling and a waste of time.

BarrySeal
03-16-2018, 10:19 PM
I know Rocky says "not needed" but I am still inclined to go out and get a 737 type. How will this help with my "points" for my app ?

slimothy
03-16-2018, 10:24 PM
Nobody is comparing a 1700 hour mil guy with a 1700 hour CFI in this ballpark.

Letís compare the 7000 hour, multiple 121 type regional captain applicant with the 1700 hour viper guy.

Letís actually not...but thatís what we see in new hire training.

The 1700 hour mil vs. civ with the same time is apples/oranges/trolling and a waste of time.

Agree with all.

slimothy
03-16-2018, 10:25 PM
I know Rocky says "not needed" but I am still inclined to go out and get a 737 type. How will this help with my "points" for my app ?

I felt like it helped me, definitely didnít hurt me. If you can afford it, itís a rather small investment when considering the career at stake. Others will disagree. I class up in 20 days.

BarrySeal
03-16-2018, 10:26 PM
I felt like it helped me, definitely didnít hurt me. If you can afford it, itís a rather small investment when considering the career at stake. Others will disagree. I class up in 20 days.

Thank you for the reply. Yes I can afford it (would prefer not to, but yes, can afford it).

Burton78
03-17-2018, 01:52 AM
Ok. I'll bite. I instructed for the premiere ab initio flight school in Europe for a few years, so here are my thoughts.

All of the pilots to through a very stringent selection process before being admitted to the flight schools (something the civilian side of flying neglects, unfortunately) then spend over a year in classrooms before touching an airplane. Then they would send them to the U.S. to complete primary flight training up through their multi commercial license. They would typically finish the program with just over 200 hours of flight time then proceed to new hire training at pretty much any European airline (Ryan Air, KLM, Lufthansa, Air Lingus, British Airways, you name it) flying an Airbus or Boeing. The airlines based much of who they hired on the student's training record among other things. The thing is... these guys were incredibly sharp and some of the best pilots I have ever seen, even at a the very elementary level I trained them at. I would put them up against 75% of the pilots at majors right now (both military and civilian trained); myself included.

I am all for ab initio training here in the U.S., I think it provides the best of both worlds; A very selective applicant pool and demanding training standards with a specific focus on airline ops.

When you think about it, UPT (Military pilot training) is somewhat of a "premier ab initio flight school" in it's own right. The soon to be military pilots also go through a stringent selection process. Then, after ground training and a couple hundred flying hours, military pilots (if they graduate) are then dispersed to learn to fly anything from F-15's B-2's, F-16's, C-5's, F-18's, KC-10's, KC-135's, etc. So in that respect, if it's vetted enough, I tend to agree and don't see why a true ab initio program couldn't work in the USA as well. However, not particularly pointing at you, but to compare a 2000 hour F-15 pilot with a 2000 hour civilian pilot is a completely different conversation.

FlyingPirate
03-17-2018, 03:36 AM
When you think about it, UPT (Military pilot training) is somewhat of a "premier ab initio flight school" in it's own right. The soon to be military pilots also go through a stringent selection process. Then, after ground training and a couple hundred flying hours, military pilots (if they graduate) are then dispersed to learn to fly anything from F-15's B-2's, F-16's, C-5's, F-18's, KC-10's, KC-135's, etc. So in that respect, if it's vetted enough, I tend to agree and don't see why a true ab initio program couldn't work in the USA as well. However, not particularly pointing at you, but to compare a 2000 hour F-15 pilot with a 2000 hour civilian pilot is a completely different conversation.

Precisely my point.

Now to your second point: I would never put a 7000 he civilian pilot in a Fighter, Tanker, or some other C of F prefix aircraft and expect them to do better than a 500 hr military guy. They weren't trained for that type of flying; It's apples to oranges.

BoilerUP
03-17-2018, 03:48 AM
Doug Masters didnít seem to have a problem going from a Cessna 150 to a Viper....

2strokin
03-17-2018, 04:08 AM
Doug Masters didnít seem to have a problem going from a Cessna 150 to a Viper....

😂

Post of the day...lol

RJSAviator76
03-17-2018, 04:15 AM
One Vision, baby!

https://youtu.be/kvpsEKSNkkA

Psycho18th
03-17-2018, 07:18 AM
All it takes to fly a Viper well is 80ís rock music on a cassette player. All it takes to fly 121 well is Barry Manilow over a Bluetooth Bose A20.

BobbyLeeSwagger
03-17-2018, 10:41 AM
Doug Masters didnít seem to have a problem going from a Cessna 150 to a Viper....

LOL, it was only a matter of time. Well played sir.

ZapBrannigan
03-17-2018, 02:13 PM
All it takes to fly a Viper well is 80ís rock music on a cassette player. All it takes to fly 121 well is Barry Manilow over a Bluetooth Bose A20.


At the Copa....Copa Cabana... [emoji445][emoji444]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Stitches
03-17-2018, 02:21 PM
but humility goes a long way.

Yes it does RJSAviator, it does indeed.

FlyGirl727
03-17-2018, 03:19 PM
How many hours do MIL pilots fly per month. If the pilot was in the service for 10 years and has 1,700 hours that works out to 170 hours per year or 14 hours a month. That's probably less than a Doctor flying his Bonanza and we all know how that ends. The MIL guys are great at PAR approaches but how about an ADF, or holding?

slimothy
03-17-2018, 03:43 PM
How many hours do MIL pilots fly per month. If the pilot was in the service for 10 years and has 1,700 hours that works out to 170 hours per year or 14 hours a month. That's probably less than a Doctor flying his Bonanza and we all know how that ends. The MIL guys are great at PAR approaches but how about an ADF, or holding?

I promise you, we Mil Pilots are proficient at ADFs, Holding, raw data approaches, hand flying, raw data point to points, LOC approaches, VOR (non DME) LOC BC, etc. The philosophy is ďsomething might fail some day, so letís always fly as if it has failed.Ē Iím not bragging, itís actually quite absurd the way we operate.

Jeff Lebowski
03-17-2018, 03:55 PM
I promise you, we Mil Pilots are proficient at ADFs, Holding, raw data approaches, hand flying, raw data point to points, LOC approaches, VOR (non DME) LOC BC, etc. The philosophy is ďsomething might fail some day, so letís always fly as if it has failed.Ē Iím not bragging, itís actually quite absurd the way we operate.

What's an "ADF"? Is that some kind of super-secret stealth tech?

slimothy
03-17-2018, 03:57 PM
What's an "ADF"? Is that some kind of super-secret stealth tech?

I havenít started SWA training yet, but Iím guessing we donít do many ADFs. Iím hoping Iíve shot my last one.

BarrySeal
03-17-2018, 05:31 PM
How many hours do MIL pilots fly per month. If the pilot was in the service for 10 years and has 1,700 hours that works out to 170 hours per year or 14 hours a month. That's probably less than a Doctor flying his Bonanza and we all know how that ends. The MIL guys are great at PAR approaches but how about an ADF, or holding?

All MIL guys, with the exception of possibly Army Warrant officers, have "collateral duties" that mean they are working on numerous projects, taskings, "honey-do's", etc from their chain of command, in addition to simply flying an airplane. The doctor flying his Bonanza does not have the regimented standardization program, safety program, and instruction common to MIL aviation.

A fighter guy may spend 2+ hours in briefings etc to go fly one hour. Etc. Indeed some "learning curve" exists to take a guy from single pilot fighter cockpit to a glass cockpit crewed 737. But we are not talking accomplishing the impossible.

MIL pilots at airlines are like the chicken and the egg. Which one came first ? Sure, the MIL pilots are highly trained, by default all have 4-year degrees (many Masters), and are flying highly complex aircraft usually, but remember that the largest Alumni network in the world is "I am ex-AF" or "I am ex Navy". The bro network is well established at all airlines, from the CP office down, and no doubt this is partially "the why" so many MIL dudes get hired.

You know what ? More power to them, I "get it" - use it if you have it

FlyingHercs
03-17-2018, 06:03 PM
Neil Armstrong had a total of 2,400 hrs when he was selected to be an astronaut....but I'm sure the Cessna driver with 2,400 hrs is just as good. You know, the time being equal and all. :rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Armstrong#Test_pilot

afxc1627
03-17-2018, 06:04 PM
And briefs were 50 minutes, RJS. Not three hours.

How about debrief...😬

TransWorld
03-17-2018, 08:38 PM
Neil Armstrong had a total of 2,400 hrs when he was selected to be an astronaut....but I'm sure the Cessna driver with 2,400 hrs is just as good. You know, the time being equal and all. :rolleyes:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Armstrong#Test_pilot

Yep, test pilot, Cessna driver, hours are hours. No difference.

I did enjoy reading about the B-29 that he had to bring down on 1 of 4 engines. Sure anyone who flies a 172 on the weekend in clear weather could do just as well. :D

WHACKMASTER
03-17-2018, 08:57 PM
Nobodyís insinuating that a civilian with 1,700 TT should get hired over a fighter jock with 1,700 TT. What I find ludicrous is that there are thousands of 10,000+ TT RJ captains with oodles of turbojet 121 PIC time that donít have skeletons in their closet and yet canít get an interview while someone with zero 121, crew, high density airport, CRM, etc. experience gets hired with 1,700 TT. That to me is ridiculous. Nothing you can say will change my mind.

flensr
03-17-2018, 09:38 PM
Nobodyís insinuating that a civilian with 1,700 TT should get hired over a fighter jock with 1,700 TT. What I find ludicrous is that there are thousands of 10,000+ TT RJ captains with oodles of turbojet 121 PIC time that donít have skeletons in their closet and yet canít get an interview while someone with zero 121, crew, high density airport, CRM, etc. experience gets hired with 1,700 TT. That to me is ridiculous. Nothing you can say will change my mind.

Ultimately it's not our choice, it's the opinion of the HR department that matters. Look at what was recently discovered about fedex's process, with internal recommendations apparently counting against applicants. We don't get to choose what any particular HR department counts as positive or negative, all we can do is choose which company we want to work for and try to meet their requirements. Delta has their process that appears to be a fairly rigid stack of swiss cheese you have to pass through. SWA wants to hire people who will be proud to be a part of the SWA family. Frontier wants to hire people who are cool with a 2 year training contract, while spirit hires on personality and seems to rely on a tough training program to weed out people who can't keep up. United hasn't called anyone for 6-9 months so who knows what they want :) We don't have control over much in the hiring process, but it ought to be pretty clear what kinds of pilots each company is looking for, based solely on what their hiring process looks like. Choose wisely and keep applying for your "dream job" because you can't possibly know if/when you'll ever meet their criteria until suddenly you do.

WHACKMASTER
03-17-2018, 09:48 PM
Totally agree. HR sets out the hoops and the applicants decides if they want to attempt jumping through them. Doesnít mean that those of us observing from the sidelines canít criticize the types of hoops they set out.

flensr
03-17-2018, 10:09 PM
Totally agree. HR sets out the hoops and the applicants decides if they want to attempt jumping through them. Doesnít mean that those of us observing from the sidelines canít criticize the types of hoops they set out.

Fair enough, everyone sees the world through the lense of their own experiences. The luckiest among us get to choose.

WHACKMASTER
03-17-2018, 10:35 PM
Yup. Amen Bro. And we are damn lucky all things considered.

Tbpilot06
03-18-2018, 05:53 AM
Yup. Amen Bro. And we are damn lucky all things considered.

I appreciate all the military pilots and people in general. I also appreciate anyone with 10k plus hours and years at regionals. What I canít figure out is how someone with 8000 hrs (only part 135 and corporate), Masters degree, I have been a DO and Chief pilot (part 135) and current Safety Manager (part 91) canít even get an interview invite. Iíve applied to every window for 1.5 years. I understand many are qualified but feel Iíd be on par with many I see getting hired. I guess Iím not smart enough to trick the computer into picking me...it feels more like a lottery than a true look at what people have to offer. I have read so many times on here about SWA valuing leadership positions and degrees and have both. I guess they donít value it as much as people say?

BarrySeal
03-18-2018, 06:06 AM
I appreciate all the military pilots and people in general. I also appreciate anyone with 10k plus hours and years at regionals. What I canít figure out is how someone with 8000 hrs (only part 135 and corporate), Masters degree, I have been a DO and Chief pilot (part 135) and current Safety Manager (part 91) canít even get an interview invite. Iíve applied to every window for 1.5 years. I understand many are qualified but feel Iíd be on par with many I see getting hired. I guess Iím not smart enough to trick the computer into picking me...it feels more like a lottery than a true look at what people have to offer. I have read so many times on here about SWA valuing leadership positions and degrees and have both. I guess they donít value it as much as people say?

wow. crazy that no calls

slimothy
03-18-2018, 07:18 AM
I appreciate all the military pilots and people in general. I also appreciate anyone with 10k plus hours and years at regionals. What I canít figure out is how someone with 8000 hrs (only part 135 and corporate), Masters degree, I have been a DO and Chief pilot (part 135) and current Safety Manager (part 91) canít even get an interview invite. Iíve applied to every window for 1.5 years. I understand many are qualified but feel Iíd be on par with many I see getting hired. I guess Iím not smart enough to trick the computer into picking me...it feels more like a lottery than a true look at what people have to offer. I have read so many times on here about SWA valuing leadership positions and degrees and have both. I guess they donít value it as much as people say?

Have you had your app reviewed by a professional? I couldnít believe the things I missed that the guy from Checked and Set found.

Bobby
03-18-2018, 07:31 AM
Have you had your app reviewed by a professional? I couldnít believe the things I missed that the guy from Checked and Set found.



^^ This ^^

Maybe itís just a coincidence, but within a few weeks of making the changes recommended by Checked & Set I received the invite. If you havenít had your app professionally reviewed, do it!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Psycho18th
03-18-2018, 08:22 AM
Totally agree. HR sets out the hoops and the applicants decides if they want to attempt jumping through them. Doesnít mean that those of us observing from the sidelines canít criticize the types of hoops they set out.
It would be nice if the companies specifically stated what the hoops are right from the beginning. I find it frustrating that they all state their minimum requirements to apply, but beyond that, itís all speculation. The computer is obviously using an algorithm to slice the list, so it would be extremely helpful to know that algorithm. As a mil/ďf-whateverĒ guy, it was easier because I knew guys with almost my exact rťsumť and whether or not they were getting an interview and where. For a civilian guy, it seems a lot more random, with extremely varied numbers/titles/etc. Itís like youíre stabbing in the dark at a target that should be illuminated.

flensr
03-18-2018, 08:27 AM
Something that might trip up people is having conflicting or negative information out there on other websites. If you're on linkedin, your profile ought to be up to date and show that you're looking for full time airline pilot employment. Resume on linkedin should be current too. Other social media needs to be pretty clean, nothing antisocial or whatever with your name associated with it. I tried to avoid political and other intense discussions for a couple years online while I was applying, because it would be pretty pathetic to lose a job because of some random facebook reply to some meme that was dumb to begin with.

With a lot of experience... Maybe get the application scrubbed by checked and set or Rebekah Krone or someone like that, and then make sure your application has a few fresh letters of recommendation uploaded alongside your resume on the pilotcredentials app. If you know someone at SWA who will recommend you, get them listed as an internal rec on pilotcredentials and ask them to go through the recommendation process internally (letter to chief pilot works I think). That should at least get you looked at.

flysocal77
03-18-2018, 08:30 AM
I appreciate all the military pilots and people in general. I also appreciate anyone with 10k plus hours and years at regionals. What I canít figure out is how someone with 8000 hrs (only part 135 and corporate), Masters degree, I have been a DO and Chief pilot (part 135) and current Safety Manager (part 91) canít even get an interview invite. Iíve applied to every window for 1.5 years. I understand many are qualified but feel Iíd be on par with many I see getting hired. I guess Iím not smart enough to trick the computer into picking me...it feels more like a lottery than a true look at what people have to offer. I have read so many times on here about SWA valuing leadership positions and degrees and have both. I guess they donít value it as much as people say?

I was hired 4 years ago with lesser but similar quals but had the type. I find it funny that people think 121 time is so important. Even HR people will tell you to get 121 time and they are wrong also. The list of qualified 121 pilots is longer than MIL and 135 guys, much longer. Plenty of Skywest captains wondering why they arenít getting interviewed. I believe the main trigger to be the type rating. Funny how people are advising to take huge pay cuts to get 121 time yet advise against the 10K type.

RJSAviator76
03-18-2018, 08:39 AM
People would be surprised how many times they omit something silly and itís enough to get bypassed by the computer.

Often times, itís not enough to just update your hours. Be sure your ďLast flownĒ date for each type is accurate. Also, your medical should be first class and up to date. Be sure your available date is not in the past. Your 10 year background should be spot on with no omissions or gaps, same with residential history. Be sure both your applications (Southwest.com and pilot credentials) are done correctly and accurately...

Then when you think you have it nailed, have a friend look it over for accuracy.

BarrySeal
03-18-2018, 08:55 AM
Something that might trip up people is having conflicting or negative information out there on other websites. If you're on linkedin, your profile ought to be up to date and show that you're looking for full time airline pilot employment. Resume on linkedin should be current too. Other social media needs to be pretty clean, nothing antisocial or whatever with your name associated with it. I tried to avoid political and other intense discussions for a couple years online while I was applying, because it would be pretty pathetic to lose a job because of some random facebook reply to some meme that was dumb to begin with.

With a lot of experience... Maybe get the application scrubbed by checked and set or Rebekah Krone or someone like that, and then make sure your application has a few fresh letters of recommendation uploaded alongside your resume on the pilotcredentials app. If you know someone at SWA who will recommend you, get them listed as an internal rec on pilotcredentials and ask them to go through the recommendation process internally (letter to chief pilot works I think). That should at least get you looked at.

even if "they never have flown with you ?"

I suppose it is better than nothing

flensr
03-18-2018, 09:07 AM
even if "they never have flown with you ?"

I suppose it is better than nothing

SWA will specifically want references from people who can attest to your flying abilities, but some of your references can be character references as well. I don't think it matters which one the internal rec is as long as they know you well enough to speak knowledgeably about you, your work habits, your personality, etc. If that's all you have, then go with it. It won't hurt you unless they call your reference and he denies knowing anything about you :)

Also, flying "with" someone means different things at different places. I might have flown once or twice in the same plane as some of my USAF friends, but I "flew with them" for years in the same squadron, seeing their results and professional attitude every single day. A guy at another airline that I went through training with, I "flew with" him for 2 months in training and never saw him again. I think the HR people know that there are going to be variances in how well a reference knows you. Remember, they're looking for more than just someone who can attest that they sat next to you in a plane and you didn't suck bad enough to crash :)

Castle Bravo
03-18-2018, 09:15 AM
Nobodyís insinuating that a civilian with 1,700 TT should get hired over a fighter jock with 1,700 TT. What I find ludicrous is that there are thousands of 10,000+ TT RJ captains with oodles of turbojet 121 PIC time that donít have skeletons in their closet and yet canít get an interview while someone with zero 121, crew, high density airport, CRM, etc. experience gets hired with 1,700 TT. That to me is ridiculous. Nothing you can say will change my mind.

While you can certainly think it is ludicrous that 1700 fighter jocks get hired before 10,000 TT RJ captains, the people who really matter in this discussion, aka the HR guys, do not think it is ludicrous. They obviously value the experience of those 1700 F-whatever dudes and dude-ettes industry-wide, so by the current HR standards, I guess it's not ludicrous.

Yes, they don't have 121 time, but their CRM goes well beyond 121 CRM of "I'm the CA and I'd like it done THIS way." There is no such thing as "single seat." They fly in formations of 2 or 4, and if you think CRM is a challenge cross-cockpit, try it amongst 4 cockpits at the same time. As for hi-density airports, consider flying into Nellis AFB at a night Red Flag mission with 80 aircraft recovering in 18 minutes and someone crumps the runway while you have 9 minutes of fuel left. Or Elmendorf AFB (Anchorage AK) in the same scenario, but it's -12 F at night with terrain and the "Low Fuel" light is blinking. Or Afghanistan, landing on a blacked-out airfield using NVGs because the airport is being shelled and you have the Low Fuel light on. Or at night on the carrier with a pitching deck, and an emergency going on. Obviously HR, industry wide, prefers this caliber of pilot at 1700 hrs TT to those with thousands more of autopilot time.

I'm not a F-guy, and I like to pick on them at the bar as much as the next dude, but there is a valid reason why they skip the RJs and go straight to the mainline carriers, and it ain't just the "Good 'Ol boy network."

slimothy
03-18-2018, 09:29 AM
While you can certainly think it is ludicrous that 1700 fighter jocks get hired before 10,000 TT RJ captains, the people who really matter in this discussion, aka the HR guys, do not think it is ludicrous. They obviously value the experience of those 1700 F-whatever dudes and dude-ettes industry-wide, so by the current HR standards, I guess it's not ludicrous.

Yes, they don't have 121 time, but their CRM goes well beyond 121 CRM of "I'm the CA and I'd like it done THIS way." There is no such thing as "single seat." They fly in formations of 2 or 4, and if you think CRM is a challenge cross-cockpit, try it amongst 4 cockpits at the same time. As for hi-density airports, consider flying into Nellis AFB at a night Red Flag mission with 80 aircraft recovering in 18 minutes and someone crumps the runway while you have 9 minutes of fuel left. Or Elmendorf AFB (Anchorage AK) in the same scenario, but it's -12 F at night with terrain and the "Low Fuel" light is blinking. Or Afghanistan, landing on a blacked-out airfield using NVGs because the airport is being shelled and you have the Low Fuel light on. Or at night on the carrier with a pitching deck, and an emergency going on. Obviously HR, industry wide, prefers this caliber of pilot at 1700 hrs TT to those with thousands more of autopilot time.

I'm not a F-guy, and I like to pick on them at the bar as much as the next dude, but there is a valid reason why they skip the RJs and go straight to the mainline carriers, and it ain't just the "Good 'Ol boy network."


And remember, many of the guys accomplishing the tasks you listed are doing those thing LONG before they have 1700 hours.

SlipKid
03-18-2018, 09:52 AM
The dynamics and workload associated with the types of flying. The maturity level and cognitive function required to lead multiple aircraft into a combat situation, and deploying ordinance in close proximity to friendly forces demonstrates a higher level of proficiency than does landing a twin Cessna on a 8,000 Ft runway.



Overall, I agree with this. The military folks are a 'known" quantity. Their training from day one is very intense, competitive and inflexible, so anyone who's completed it is generally assumed to be competent and the vast majority are.

GA training varies, so at the 1700 hour mark, a GA pilot's experience and competency level can be all over the map. As the GA's pilots hours increase, typically, they become less of an unknown quantity, particularly if they go the regional route with established training and proficiency standards.

Once you get to the majors, the playing field is much more level. In my 32 year career, I've flown with pilots, in all 3 seats, of every background imaginable.

The best, and worst pilots (from competency and personality standpoints) I've flown with have come from all of them.

In my top ten list of the most miserable humans that I wouldn't urinate on if they were on fire, that I've had the "pleasure" of flying with, the top five of them are civilian only background. The rest are former or retired USAF and one USN guy.

I just finished a trip with a retired AF Col. (flew heavies). It was a long 4 days, and he was actually a pretty good guy, all things considered. The "I'm right, even when I am wrong" attitude gets old fast though. I did beat him to the EAI switches once. ;)

If I were given the option of choosing a brand new hire to fly with into busy airports and bad weather, and the ONLY info given for me to use in guiding my decision was that one was ex military and one was a regional guy/gal, I would choose the latter every single time.

Of course, it varies, but IME, there's much less chance of me being a defacto, unpaid IOE Captain with the regional pilot that's been doing this exact job for years vs. the guy who has never done it before.

FWIW, I've had to take an airplane away from another pilot 3 times in my life, something that I will only do to prevent my imminent demise or maybe a violation. 2 were ex military. One was a single seat AF guy. Great guy with a great attitude, but I find it hard to believe that he survived flying by himself for the 8 years he was in. The other was an Army RW guy that was a bit on the arrogant side, and later went on to scab at EAL. The other one is pure civilian and a good guy (for a FAT ;) ), that I enjoy flying with, but have to watch like a hawk. :eek:

ZapBrannigan
03-18-2018, 04:11 PM
Just for fun...

Ways to drive your mil flying partner nuts...

ďThe Academy huh? I know some guys who went to Comair Academy too.Ē

ďThe Viper? Thatís a high wing turboprop isnít it? Freighter?Ē

ďCallsign huh? Neat. My nickname in my fraternity was Bartlet because Iím shaped like a pear.Ē


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Peacock
03-18-2018, 05:13 PM
If someone is talking about their call sign to a civilian they deserve to be ridiculed

barabek
03-18-2018, 07:17 PM
If someone is talking about their call sign to a civilian they deserve to be ridiculed

Call me Maverick!

at6d
03-18-2018, 10:45 PM
I get really tired of the mil vs. civ threads.

The majority understand the comparison of qualifications...but keep in mind, on the line we are both here in a civilian job at the same time, right now.

There are great stories from every pilot here. I would love to know what it felt like to be supersonic at low level in an F-111, or running CAS in an A-10.

That being said, a pilotís best qualification from either realm is to not be an a-hole. Hands down, if you are one, itís the first thing that will kill your interview.

And thatís all I have to say about that.

Ok except that Doug Masters should know better than to race Knotcher with his flaps down.

Macjet
03-20-2018, 07:08 AM
PS, Iím not a mil jet guy, Iím a former RW guy who has 1200 hours of flight time that most majors donít even consider actual flight time.

It's not flight time if you have to beat the air into submission. That's dominaviating!

slimothy
03-20-2018, 08:03 AM
It's not flight time if you have to beat the air into submission. That's dominaviating!

The air had it coming. It knows what it did.

Macjet
03-20-2018, 09:56 AM
The air had it coming. It knows what it did.

As long as you had a safe word and no hamsters were harmed.

Lotsof Blue
03-21-2018, 07:20 AM
Retirement Q? Does SW do a DC and profit sharing into the 401k, or is it only profit sharing now? Thx!

RJSAviator76
03-21-2018, 07:47 AM
Retirement Q? Does SW do a DC and profit sharing into the 401k, or is it only profit sharing now? Thx!


2 separate qualified retirement accounts:

Your 401k account into which you contribute the percentage of your income for your personal contribution, and the company contributes 14.2% (2018 figure - goes up to 15% in January 2019) into the same account.

Profit sharing account in which the company dumps your profit sharing amount is separate from your 401k account described above, but still a qualified retirement account. What ties these accounts together from the Companyís perspective is the total amount that the company can put into any of your qualified retirement accounts. Once you reach the IRS limits, the excess is paid to you in cash, or you can choose to invest that excess in nonqualified plans.

You can borrow from your 401k account; you cannot borrow from your ProfitSharing account.

iHateAMR
03-22-2018, 02:13 AM
Nobodyís insinuating that a civilian with 1,700 TT should get hired over a fighter jock with 1,700 TT. What I find ludicrous is that there are thousands of 10,000+ TT RJ captains with oodles of turbojet 121 PIC time that donít have skeletons in their closet and yet canít get an interview while someone with zero 121, crew, high density airport, CRM, etc. experience gets hired with 1,700 TT. That to me is ridiculous. Nothing you can say will change my mind.

I think (Iím guessing, I donít know a thing about HR) HR looks at trajectory... 4 year degree, masters, tons of additional duties, AND flies. Vs the 10,000 hour slightly overweight regional pilot guy who shows up to work everyday and thatís it.

Also, earlier somebody said mil guys 1,700 hours or something, but that also doesnít include the literally 1,000s of hours in the sim. My buddy has been flying the C17 for 8 years now in the reserves, but he does 21 sims a year and only flies the actual jet once a month. I bet you fighter guys have more sim time than him.

Warhawg01
03-22-2018, 06:14 AM
ďI bet you fighter guys have more sim time than him.Ē

Not true. Fighter guys have to fly a minimum of 8-9 times a month. Sim requirements in my airframe were only 3 a month and we usually didnít get all three.