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View Full Version : Work your tail off at Southwest?


oldboyroy
02-08-2018, 05:39 AM
What does it mean when all my legacy friends say you will work your tail off at SWA? Is it that bad? I don't see the horrible chains and slave labor they speak of...can someone elaborate?


e6bpilot
02-08-2018, 05:51 AM
There was a time not so long ago when SWA primarily flew multiple short legs around the middle of the country. You would fly the airplane half the day, usually on 5-7 legs, and then hand it over to the PM crew or put it to bed if you are the PM crew. It was hard work, but usually resulted in a fairly well paying day.
A few of those trips still exist, primarily in California, but the average SWA trip now is 3 legs a day with 1.5 to 2 hour legs. Sprinkle in some near international and transcon flying, some easy trips that fly one or two legs a day, and other random flying, and that is mostly not true these days.
I blocked a little over 700 hours last year, which is about what my legacy counterparts on narrowbody airplanes blocked. We still have some productive trips that block over 20 in 3 days and credit over 25 tfp, but they are pretty rare. I donít fly them because I donít like them, but some guys bid a whole line of them and enjoy their days off a little more.

crobey
02-08-2018, 06:34 AM
Also expect to fly when sitting reserve. Very rarely will you not be used (February to spring break is the most likely timeframe to not be used currently)


oldboyroy
02-08-2018, 07:06 AM
from what I can tell...work effeciently, less time in hotel layovers and airports waiting, so does that equate more time off (at home) than the Legacy airlines? Is it possible to get 10-12 block days off at a time?

DHC8DRV
02-08-2018, 07:20 AM
Also expect to fly when sitting reserve. Very rarely will you not be used (February to spring break is the most likely timeframe to not be used currently)

That is changing now that we are staffed fairly well in all bases. I bid reserve in Nov and Dec to get the holidays off and only worked 6 days each month. With the new pay for reserve in the new contract, reserve is starting to go more senior since you are guaranteed either 90 or 96 TFP per month and work less and less each month as the staffing goes up.

gipple
02-08-2018, 09:41 AM
One of our greatest benefits is flexibility. Work little or work much. Most work much. Trip for pay totals become addictive for some. Mr 408 comes to mind. Not my bag but that it is even possible is terrific. Job security is the other. And a nice 11.3% profit sharing as of last night is the cherry on top.

at6d
02-08-2018, 10:28 AM
As far as blocks of days off, I just had 14. This is due to transition between months, but Iíll take it.

You can definitely work your ass off here, mostly self inflicted though.

saab2000
02-08-2018, 11:20 AM
You won't work more here than at a regional, that's for sure. But there is plenty of flying to be had for those who wish to make some money. But you can't work more than most people at a regional work. I knew people who timed out and I was average at mine and did 850 hours per year on average.

I think by working your tail off people mostly mean you won't de-qualify by not flying enough. And there are people at majors who can do just that if they sit reserve on a wide body.

ZapBrannigan
02-08-2018, 12:22 PM
One of our greatest benefits is flexibility. Work little or work much. Most work much. Trip for pay totals become addictive for some. Mr 408 comes to mind. Not my bag but that it is even possible is terrific. Job security is the other. And a nice 11.3% profit sharing as of last night is the cherry on top.


That is the party line. Itís really hard to do the ďwork littleĒ part though. Canít drop trips. Have to hope you have something desirable enough that another pilot would like to take it from you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

SlipKid
02-08-2018, 03:24 PM
That is the party line. Itís really hard to do the ďwork littleĒ part though. Canít drop trips. Have to hope you have something desirable enough that another pilot would like to take it from you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It takes effort, but it's rare that I can't get rid if at least 6 days per month via TTGA, ELITT and overlap.

I had my entire Feb board cleared in under 4 hours on Jan 11th. ;) I wish it were June or July.

e6bpilot
02-08-2018, 05:04 PM
No joke. First time I have ever seen a 3 on net zero that I could have actually taken advantage of. I decided to leave it.

squirtinvert
02-08-2018, 06:28 PM
It depends on what kind of flying you came from and your background to a certain extent. As an ex heavy military driver flying 6-8 hour flights, the 4-6 leg days you can do here are a lot of work. They are also a lot less stress than the military. We can't just drop trips like you can at other companies (if they have reserve coverage). Getting rid of flying (via Give away and having another pilot take it) I have not been successful yet.

Also, how do you measure working harder? Just on block, then yes you will work harder at SWA. My cousin flys A320s for DL and he routinely sits 60-90 minutes between flights. SWA standard is 30-50 minutes. Some of the most fatiguing flying I think is sitting 2-3 hours between flights.

More block yes; longer days generally yes; similar total pay yes; more calendar days off generally yes but it depends if the legacy guys drop trips.

saab2000
02-09-2018, 05:52 AM
On reserve I got a minimum of 15 days off per month though a couple times it went below that due to overlap. But that's better than places I've been in the past. I spent most of a year on reserve at another 737 charter/121 operator and only got 10 days off per month. Of course, I didn't fly most of those days either.

Now that I'm starting to get more assigned flying on blank lines I routinely get 16-18 days off. I used ELITT this month to expand some 3-day trips to 4-day trips to increase my pay. It's not premium, but put me over 100 TFP for a shortened month like February. I'm satisfied.

Smooth at FL450
02-09-2018, 06:48 AM
I used ELITT this month to expand some 3-day trips to 4-day trips to increase my pay.

Hopefully youíre telling your buddies in base that youíre about to create a net zero +1! 😉

Fuseplug
02-09-2018, 07:07 AM
Hopefully youíre telling your buddies in base that youíre about to create a net zero +1! 😉

BWI FO Net Zero is at 4 right now. I had no idea that thing went above 0 until this month.

e6bpilot
02-09-2018, 07:37 AM
Same in Houston. It has fluctuated all month but generally stays positive for hours at a time. Itís February. Next month I predict things will begin returning to normal based on the lines that I see. Lots of flying, lots of long days.

RJSAviator76
02-09-2018, 07:44 AM
Same in Houston. It has fluctuated all month but generally stays positive for hours at a time. It’s February. Next month I predict things will begin returning to normal based on the lines that I see. Lots of flying, lots of long days.

Hopefully... TTGA looks pretty scary in February. Hardly any trips in regular giveaway across the system. Mostly either trades, or maybe a few pinned giveaways which I don't bother with. Used to be a buffet, now it's famine, and you know it's bad when upgrade-eligible senior FO's are bidding on reserve blocks in DOT.

e6bpilot
02-09-2018, 08:10 AM
I agree. The problem is that upgrades have lagged hiring for almost a year. We are so fat on FOs right now it is ridiculous. The training center has finally cranked the upgrade machine into full gear, but it will be Summer before the balance is right with the force since they really just started this month doing full bore classes.
Look at the average line total this month. It had to be in the low 80s. Thatís the lowest I have seen since I got hired four years ago. There are tons of reserves and unless the weather is bad, all the open time is going straight.
Last February I flew two premium open time trips and got JAd.

SlipKid
02-10-2018, 07:04 AM
Last February I flew two premium open time trips and got JAd.

Last February, heck, the last few years, like I've told you guys in other threads, were anomalies.

This month is much closer to a typical Feb around here, which is one of the many reasons why I typically bid vacation in Feb.

I'm kicking myself because I wasted a vacation week in July this year because the wife asked me to, so no Feb vacay for me. After clearing my board in 4 hours, I've spent about 5 times that trying, unsuccessfully, to build an acceptable commuting schedule. :eek:

Never again.

For many years, Sept, Oct and Jan were similar.

Enjoy the feast and famine folks.

FWIW, MCO CA Net Zero is currently at 44, and will likely climb higher. I've seen it in the triple digits in the past. Oh, and there are still several DTC days in Feb. That there was an old SWApA WIN! folks.

RJSAviator76
02-10-2018, 08:33 AM
FWIW, MCO CA Net Zero is currently at 44, and will likely climb higher.

44?? :eek:

e6bpilot
02-10-2018, 09:34 AM
Last February, heck, the last few years, like I've told you guys in other threads, were anomalies.

This month is much closer to a typical Feb around here, which is one of the many reasons why I typically bid vacation in Feb.

I'm kicking myself because I wasted a vacation week in July this year because the wife asked me to, so no Feb vacay for me. After clearing my board in 4 hours, I've spent about 5 times that trying, unsuccessfully, to build an acceptable commuting schedule. :eek:

Never again.

For many years, Sept, Oct and Jan were similar.

Enjoy the feast and famine folks.

FWIW, MCO CA Net Zero is currently at 44, and will likely climb higher. I've seen it in the triple digits in the past. Oh, and there are still several DTC days in Feb. That there was an old SWApA WIN! folks.



Slip,
I agree and I knew it was an anomaly. I did enjoy it, though. Working 14 days for 140tfp was nice while it lasted. I worked that way for about a year and I had a nice little system.
I think once upgrades catch up (supposed to be close to 700 for 2018) it will return to a level that is more manageable on the FO side. Right now the manning is skewed at a level that I doubt this company has ever seen. February has just exacerbated the ridiculousness. When you have 25 reserves sitting because all the FOs are picking up chopped up partial trips at straight time, you may be overmanned.
I still donít buy in to the conspiracy theorists that think the company just doesnít want to pay premium. Paying a pilot time and a half the whole year is cheaper than buying a new pilot with the associated benefits and insurance. There is a break even point somewhere with having extra guys on the property and what it costs to run a lean manning model in the peak flying season and I think that is what they are going for. They just let upgrades lag because they didnít need a bunch of new captains sitting around when they were retiring planes.

Ivana Humpalot
02-10-2018, 10:36 AM
Personally, if we don't buy Hawaiian we're ******d. They are expanding to mid size cities on the mainland. Only problem I see is what the name of the combined airline would be. South Hawaiian or Hawaiian West. We need something that shows we're truly a national airline. We can't use the one from the movie like Global because Petronni would sue us because we're not really global. Maybe we could use the old National name or Trans American, or All states airlines. I'm on a roll. Maybe Pandemonium Airlines? Or Jet Blue orange and red? Any ideas?

WHACKMASTER
02-10-2018, 10:44 AM
Personally, if we don't buy Hawaiian we're ******d. They are expanding to mid size cities on the mainland. Only problem I see is what the name of the combined airline would be. South Hawaiian or Hawaiian West. We need something that shows we're truly a national airline. We can't use the one from the movie like Global because Petronni would sue us because we're not really global. Maybe we could use the old National name or Trans American, or All states airlines. I'm on a roll. Maybe Pandemonium Airlines? Or Jet Blue orange and red? Any ideas?

Ideas? Yeah. Chill....... We donít ďneedĒ to buy HAL. Weíll be just fine on our own. Besides....Alaska would be a better merger strategically.

e6bpilot
02-10-2018, 10:55 AM
This thread needed a good troll.

SlipKid
02-10-2018, 04:51 PM
44?? :eek:

47, as of 1950 Herb.......

e6bpilot
02-10-2018, 05:37 PM
HOU FO has been bouncing around from 0-3 but mainly 0. Still plenty of good trips. Weekday stuff, commutable stuff, etc. Giveaway tells a different tale.

SlipKid
02-11-2018, 07:57 AM
HOU FO has been bouncing around from 0-3 but mainly 0. Still plenty of good trips. Weekday stuff, commutable stuff, etc. Giveaway tells a different tale.

MCO CA NZ is 50 now. (51 5 minutes later........)

And still a few red days left.

DTC was definitely the result of some majorly awesome, old SWApA "negotiating"...... How old SWApA avoided multiple DFR suits is a question for the ages. I guess it's not such a mystery when you look at the voting record of this pilot group. Concession after concession ratified, after major SWApAganda pushes, of course, by the majority for decades. DTC was one of the worst in a long line of stuff we gave up for absolutely nothing.

Except for one or 2 reserve awards in giveaway the last few days, nothing in TTGA except trades since at least the 2nd or 3rd, and very few of the trades are going. Same guys keep re posting the same trips for trade with slightly different parameters several times per day, triggering yet another line tuner text. :eek:

gipple
02-12-2018, 04:12 AM
MCO CA NZ is 50 now. (51 5 minutes later........)

And still a few red days left.

DTC was definitely the result of some majorly awesome, old SWApA "negotiating"...... How old SWApA avoided multiple DFR suits is a question for the ages. I guess it's not such a mystery when you look at the voting record of this pilot group. Concession after concession ratified, after major SWApAganda pushes, of course, by the majority for decades. DTC was one of the worst in a long line of stuff we gave up for absolutely nothing.

Except for one or 2 reserve awards in giveaway the last few days, nothing in TTGA except trades since at least the 2nd or 3rd, and very few of the trades are going. Same guys keep re posting the same trips for trade with slightly different parameters several times per day, triggering yet another line tuner text. :eek:


Too many of those former volunteers were rewarded with management cubicles and titles. 🤮

SlipKid
02-12-2018, 08:11 AM
Too many of those former volunteers were rewarded with management cubicles and titles. 🤮

At least we're not paying them anymore to represent the company, which was exactly what they were doing when they were "representing" the pilot group. :eek:

gipple
02-12-2018, 09:11 AM
At least we're not paying them anymore to represent the company, which was exactly what they were doing when they were "representing" the pilot group. :eek:

👍👏
For length

Bizkit
02-12-2018, 05:53 PM
No joke. First time I have ever seen a 3 on net zero that I could have actually taken advantage of. I decided to leave it.

Can someone translate Net Zero for us wannabe's?

e6bpilot
02-12-2018, 06:29 PM
Can someone translate Net Zero for us wannabe's?



Basically the number of duty periods you can give up to the open time pool. In every month that doesnít begin in F, it stays zero all the time except for brief periods of .5 seconds or less.

SlipKid
02-12-2018, 06:32 PM
Can someone translate Net Zero for us wannabe's?

Net Zero is a restriction in our open time system. It has to be a positive number in order to be able to trade down, IE: NZ has to be 1 in order to trade a 4 day for a 3 day, 2 to trade a 4 for a 2 day etc., out of open time. It is typically zero, meaning you can't trade down. In normal months, it does occasionally go to 1 or 2 for short (often only a few seconds) periods.

It's just one of the many restrictions that make our "industry leading" flexibility much more work than it has to be. Duties to Cover is easily as bad, if not worse, and it wasn't even part of ELITT when it began. That was a "gain" from old SWApA to the company, err, the membership. :eek:

at6d
02-12-2018, 07:13 PM
PHX is net zero by default!

Tankerhead
02-13-2018, 08:36 AM
Can someone translate Net Zero for us wannabe's?

It's completely irrelevant.

Proximity
02-15-2018, 12:20 PM
Zero new FO vacancies and a whole bunch of Captain spots for April...finally some relief from the overmanning on the FO side.

flyguy81
02-15-2018, 05:29 PM
FO vacancies will be covered by CA upgrades. No slowing of hiring going on.

barabek
02-15-2018, 05:39 PM
FO vacancies will be covered by CA upgrades. No slowing of hiring going on.

Not until June anyway. I just saw the numbers for the second half of the year and they are not impressive. Unless they change the numbers again, there will be only 1 or 2 newhire classes a month starting June.

hoover
02-15-2018, 05:42 PM
They didn't build a new training center to hire less than capacity of old building.

WHACKMASTER
02-15-2018, 06:47 PM
Not until June anyway. I just saw the numbers for the second half of the year and they are not impressive. Unless they change the numbers again, there will be only 1 or 2 newhire classes a month starting June.

One or two a month is nothing to sneeze at all things considered. Heck, two a month is still about 600 annually. Iíll take it. Keep it coming.

Whatís the latest anyway? 750 this year?

e6bpilot
02-15-2018, 08:23 PM
Ha ha. I can tell we are getting spoiled when guys say one or two newhire classes a month is slow.
The work will progress. The vacancy for April is a good thing. We need those upgrades to even out things on the FO side and get some movement on the captain side. Lots of guys are hanging out as senior FOs. I will be curious to see how many upgrade after vacation bids this year.

Smooth at FL450
02-15-2018, 08:44 PM
Not until June anyway. I just saw the numbers for the second half of the year and they are not impressive. Unless they change the numbers again, there will be only 1 or 2 newhire classes a month starting June.

Training Scheduling had to build in 5 days of zero sim events to move equipment to the new building. Combine that with the EET and ETOPS sim events, and it is understandable why new hire training had to throttle back a notch...

Proximity
02-15-2018, 08:57 PM
Ha ha. I can tell we are getting spoiled when guys say one or two newhire classes a month is slow.

SWAPA predicts 416 hires thru June. One class a month for the rest of the year would still be around 600 new hires, which would still be a big year. I doubt they slow down to that much however.

How about this, since Jul-15 there has been at-least one class per month, bringing on close to 2000 pilots (not sure about attrition for this cohort). More then 20% of the pilots here have never a month where they didn't move up.

squirtinvert
02-15-2018, 10:38 PM
Just got done with FO leadership class and straight from the horses mouth said 678 new hire FO this year. They donít think it will be more than that like in previous years with all the changes going on in the training departsment as mentioned above. Also 450 captain upgrades was the number thrown out for this year. Jan 2019 will launch HI service so the back half of this year will hinder training in favor of etops. Might pick back up in 2019 as the hunger games for pilots at the legacies due to retirements begin and the growth of the fleet materialize after the 2017 fleet drawdown due to the classic.

e6bpilot
02-16-2018, 09:12 AM
Just got done with FO leadership class and straight from the horses mouth said 678 new hire FO this year. They donít think it will be more than that like in previous years with all the changes going on in the training departsment as mentioned above. Also 450 captain upgrades was the number thrown out for this year. Jan 2019 will launch HI service so the back half of this year will hinder training in favor of etops. Might pick back up in 2019 as the hunger games for pilots at the legacies due to retirements begin and the growth of the fleet materialize after the 2017 fleet drawdown due to the classic.



Thanks for the update.

slimothy
02-16-2018, 09:19 AM
Not until June anyway. I just saw the numbers for the second half of the year and they are not impressive. Unless they change the numbers again, there will be only 1 or 2 newhire classes a month starting June.

For whatever itís worth, I interviewed this month and Rocky told us that they were projecting 750 new hires for Ď18. Same as they projected last year, but ended up hiring just over 900. Expects to see 750 increase to about the same as Ď17. Perhaps he was blowing smoke at potential new hires, but thatís the word he passed to us.

at6d
02-16-2018, 10:13 AM
They arenít blowing smoke IMO. The numbers have pretty much met or exceeded hiring plans the last couple of years.

PowerShift
02-16-2018, 02:03 PM
I believe SWAa will hire the stated amount or more. To hire hire less then stated would be an indicator of slowed or retracted growth, perceived or actual. Any publicly traded company tends to under promise and over deliver in these matters.

dawgdriver
02-19-2018, 10:31 AM
Pilot hiring is good for seniority but not so good for picking up premium pay flying. Might be a temporary bump until they get the fleet back up from the unplanned early retirement of the classic fleet, but without the enhanced income opportunity, all that's left at SWA is a lot of legs in crappy 737s (FO's are BUSY), less hourly than legacies, no wide bodies, slow upgrades, and upcoming red eyes. Unlike the legacies, you can't drop trips without someone to pick them up, there's no PTO, so scheduling flexibility isn't great either. Oh wait I left out the cool LUV mojo, hot pants and room parties. :D

Skyward
02-19-2018, 11:22 AM
Pilot hiring is good for seniority but not so good for picking up premium pay flying. Might be a temporary bump until they get the fleet back up from the unplanned early retirement of the classic fleet, but without the enhanced income opportunity, all that's left at SWA is a lot of legs in crappy 737s (FO's are BUSY), less hourly than legacies, no wide bodies, slow upgrades, and upcoming red eyes. Unlike the legacies, you can't drop trips without someone to pick them up, there's no PTO, so scheduling flexibility isn't great either. Oh wait I left out the cool LUV mojo, hot pants and room parties. :D

My experience with flexibility has been outstanding. I saw less flexibility at a Legacy where I had a CJO, so I chose WN. Not everyone wants to fly a widebody to other countries.

dawgdriver
02-19-2018, 03:39 PM
My experience with flexibility has been outstanding. I saw less flexibility at a Legacy where I had a CJO, so I chose WN. Not everyone wants to fly a widebody to other countries.

Good to hear. Not to be confrontational, but you got a CJO...did you actually work at said legacy and find it to be lacking in flexibility? Which one? Odd because none of the big 3 require another pilot to pick up your dropped trips. Good luck with that at SWA as you're competing with premium open time or better TFP-to-block ratios. Sure you might be able to move some trips around but dropping them or clearing your schedule is another story.

Never claimed everybody wants a widebody. Having the choice of QOL, pay and lifestyle in the right seat of a widebody causes senior guys to bid it and allows for much quicker upgrades for guys on the narrowbody side.

Skyward
02-19-2018, 04:14 PM
CJO? Did you actually work there and find it to be lacking in flexibility? Which legacy? Odd because none of the big 3 require another pilot to pick up your dropped trips. Good luck with that as you're competing with company issued premium open time. Might be able to move some trips around but dropping them or clearing your schedule is another story.

Never claimed everybody wants a widebody. Having the diversity of a widebody fleet allows for much quicker upgrades on the narrowbody side

Do you work at SW?

No, I didnít work at the legacy. Just a CJO at UAL with a lot of research and friends sharing schedules at both companies. I may just be lucky, but Iíve never really had any trrouble giving away trips (including clearing 75% of my schedule when Iíve tried to do that). The nice thing at WN is that I can start out with more days off to begin with generally due to the hard lines. With PBS itís only as good as your seniority (been there, done that at another airline). Potential back-to-back trips with 13, 14, 15 days off... no thanks. Donít get me wrong, the legacies are a fantastic career, but Iíve had tremendous flexibility at WN.

dawgdriver
02-19-2018, 05:14 PM
Do you work at SW?

No, I didnít work at the legacy. Just a CJO at UAL with a lot of research and friends sharing schedules at both companies. I may just be lucky, but Iíve never really had any trrouble giving away trips (including clearing 75% of my schedule when Iíve tried to do that). The nice thing at WN is that I can start out with more days off to begin with generally due to the hard lines. With PBS itís only as good as your seniority (been there, done that at another airline). Potential back-to-back trips with 13, 14, 15 days off... no thanks. Donít get me wrong, the legacies are a fantastic career, but Iíve had tremendous flexibility at WN.

No, routine chatter from SW guys in the crash pad. I was just curious what your experience was. Thanks.

Smokey23
02-20-2018, 12:24 PM
No, routine chatter from SW guys in the crash pad.

Try talking to a few SW pilots who aren't commuters. You may get a very different perspective.

dawgdriver
02-21-2018, 06:34 AM
Try talking to a few SW pilots who aren't commuters. You may get a very different perspective.

Thanks, but as a permanent commuter, while appreciated, their perspectives aren't what I was looking for. Ease of dropping trips, clearing schedules, etc. Just trying to get answers, not poking at anyone's gig.

e6bpilot
02-21-2018, 08:09 AM
Fourth year FO commuter here and I can drop at least 3-4 days a month, usually more in overlap and giveaway. I can often drop 1-2 days in elitt as well. It takes a couple extra hours of work a month in bidding carefully and working elitt, but itís doable.
In January and February I could have cleared my whole month easily due to the available flying right now vs bodies to do it.
In truth, it depends highly on the month, but we are able to easily move days around and drop days when needed. I havenít felt ďstuckĒ in a non holiday trip since I have been on reserve.

dawgdriver
02-21-2018, 08:14 AM
Fourth year FO commuter here and I can drop at least 3-4 days a month, usually more in overlap and giveaway. I can often drop 1-2 days in elitt as well. It takes a couple extra hours of work a month in bidding carefully and working elitt, but itís doable.
In January and February I could have cleared my whole month easily due to the available flying right now vs bodies to do it.
In truth, it depends highly on the month, but we are able to easily move days around and drop days when needed. I havenít felt ďstuckĒ in a non holiday trip since I have been on reserve.

Good stuff man. Thanks.

RckyMtHigh
02-21-2018, 05:42 PM
Thanks, but as a permanent commuter, while appreciated, their perspectives aren't what I was looking for. Ease of dropping trips, clearing schedules, etc. Just trying to get answers, not poking at anyone's gig.

If I had to commute, SWA would be at the bottom of my list.

Skyward
02-21-2018, 05:57 PM
If I had to commute, SWA would be at the bottom of my list.

The trip construction (AM or PM) makes it tough for commuters for sure. There are some commutable trips on both ends, but many more trips that are not. The commuter policy with one flight on company metal is good stuff compared to most others though. There’s nothing like living in base though for sure.

e6bpilot
02-21-2018, 06:17 PM
If I had to commute, SWA would be at the bottom of my list.



Itís really highly dependent on your commuter city and base. If I chose to, I could fly exclusively commutable trips. Some months I do, some I choose pay/days off/trip quality/etc and fly a trip that doesnít work out with my commute.
I look at it this way...right now my March schedule has 10 days total. If I wanted to fly guarantee or thereabouts, I need to add 3 days. Thatís 13 days total for a full month of pay.
Even if I had to spend two nights in base commuting, that would still beat most other airline schedules.
I didnít spend a single night commuting last month. This month I chose to twice for various reasons, mainly to fly an AM trip that has long overnights with family and to fly a super easy trip with a layover that I wanted.
Some city pairs it doesnít work out and I get that completely, but saying ďSouthwest doesnít have commutable tripsĒ is a misnomer.

ZapBrannigan
02-22-2018, 02:20 AM
ďSouthwest doesnít have commutable tripsĒ is a misnomer.


How about ďSWA doesnít have any commutable LINES.Ē?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

e6bpilot
02-22-2018, 04:15 AM
How about ďSWA doesnít have any commutable LINES.Ē?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That is probably true. Who flies their line, though?

ZapBrannigan
02-22-2018, 06:55 AM
That is probably true. Who flies their line, though?


Commuters do if there were commutable lines. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ZapBrannigan
02-22-2018, 06:58 AM
I donít mean to make light. This is one of those industry standard things that doesnít exist at our shop. It goes along with all of those other little things that are absent from our CBA, and itís a real head scratcher at a company where nearly 50% of the pilots commute. You would think there would be an outcry for commutable lines and long call reserve... but there is a greater appetite for dense trips that pay well than there is for ease of commute. It is worth mentioning though that at almost all of the other airlines Iíve worked for, some percentage of lines were commutable on both ends. They may not necessarily pay that well, but when I commuted that was not my primary concern.



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e6bpilot
02-22-2018, 11:54 AM
Take a look inside SWAPA and the senior ďpower brokersĒ in our group and you will find the answer. Commuter anything is shouted down from the rooftops because ďcommuting is a choiceĒ.
I just want some lounge furniture in Houston that doesnít look like it got picked up off the curb.

e6bpilot
02-22-2018, 11:57 AM
I donít mean to be negative about it, but I honestly feel like they treat commuters as second class citizens here.
Donít get me wrong, I am content with my station in life, but things could be so much better for the group as a whole if they made a few moves to satisfy the needs of commuters and didnít just pay lip service.

Psycho18th
02-22-2018, 12:52 PM
Has SWA ever closed a pilot base?

How does making commutable lines help the group as a whole?

Seems like a good bet to move where you work at this airline, unlike others that close pilot bases on a pretty recurring basis.

ZapBrannigan
02-22-2018, 02:33 PM
Has SWA ever closed a pilot base?



How does making commutable lines help the group as a whole?



Seems like a good bet to move where you work at this airline, unlike others that close pilot bases on a pretty recurring basis.



Ugh. What a terrible attitude. So every newhire should just pack up their lives and move to the most junior base?

One of the benefits of this profession is the ability to live where you want, convenient to family, friends, the spouseís career, in areas where the cost of living is lower.


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e6bpilot
02-22-2018, 02:59 PM
Has SWA ever closed a pilot base?



How does making commutable lines help the group as a whole?



Seems like a good bet to move where you work at this airline, unlike others that close pilot bases on a pretty recurring basis.



Ha ha. Good one.
Base dwellers are now in the minority here, therefore anything that helps commuters does, in fact, help the pilot group as a whole. Lots of guys watched their ďhomeĒ jobs turn into hellish commutes over the last 17 years including a lot of AirTran folks who settled in the ATL and now work here.
I will take my chances with being a commuter for now.
Nobody closes a base
Or furloughs
Or draws down a domicile to a shell
...until they do.

I bet a lot of DL folks in DFW and MCO thought they had it made in the shade.
My family is happy where we are. The bulk of the senior pilots here live in a base so I donít see things changing anytime soon, but the tide has shifted in that direction.

Bwipilot
02-22-2018, 03:10 PM
There are many commutable pairings popping up lately. I can imagine they go senior because even pilots who live local like to report after 8:00 am on the 1st day of an AM pairing or get back before 9:00 pm on the last day of a PM trip.

The biggest punishment for SWA commuters has been the reduction in city-pair frequencies. Places like PVD, MHT, ALB, ISP, BNA, STL, IND--just to name a few--have had their short haul flights to bases greatly reduced since 2001. (yes, that is a long time ago).

Beyond that, many of the things ZapBrannigan wants are anathema to SWA:

- long call reserve: less efficient since more reserves are needed. My observation is that airlines with long call have many more pilots on reserve--a lot who sit at home.
- productivity: the 6.5 average daily guarantee and the 5.0 daily min make it wasteful to construct more of the pairings that commuters would find usable. There are some pairings built that way--but creating more would dilute the productivity of more pairings. That would be a big negative to pilots who live in base and have less numerous productive trips to chose from.

ZapBrannigan
02-22-2018, 04:57 PM
long call reserve: less efficient since more reserves are needed. My observation is that airlines with long call have many more pilots on reserve--a lot who sit at home.

Not exactly. We already have in excess of 15% of pilots on reserve. Rapidly approaching legacy levels.

The reality is that SW already has long-call reserve. Scheduling most often assigns tomorrowís trips to reserves today. That is long-call. (albeit without trip ownership it means the poor reserve has to come into domicile anyway)

What SW is lacking is dedicated SHORT call reserve. That means that you and I get re-routed, extended, and JAíd as online reserves because the company has already assigned its entire compliment of reserves to open time that they didnít want to pay premium for.

The solution is to divide the reserve cadre into a dedicated long call (including trip ownership and allowing the reserves to choose from available trips in seniority order during the assignment call)

... and a dedicated short call who remain available (even if un-flown) to put out fires.

productivity: the 6.5 average daily guarantee and the 5.0 daily min make it wasteful to construct more of the pairings that commuters would find usable. There are some pairings built that way--but creating more would dilute the productivity of more pairings. That would be a big negative to pilots who live in base and have less numerous productive trips to chose from.


Yup. Thatís the cost of providing trips that appeal to a majority demographic. Even though commutable trips will fly during bankers hours, they will be less efficient and would necessarily pay less. That keeps the in-domicile senior folks from bidding them. The commuter who wants to be home more might not care about monthly totals.

This is all part of growing into a big airline that offers more than just pay rates to appeal to a pilot community with a variety of different needs and desires.


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Skyward
02-22-2018, 05:31 PM
As a commuter, Iíd rather have trips that are not commutable on one end and 18 days off rather than non-productive trips and 14 days off. I can always take a nap in the sleep room at the end of a pm trip and catch the first flight out the next morning or just pull a late night on a fedex js. Iím a PMír though, so that plan works easier than for an AMír.

I would be in favor of some long call reserve periods, though.

Redchevron
02-22-2018, 06:50 PM
Workin' on a draft budget.

What are the assumptions?
Commuting to OAK?
Sitting Reserve?

Is a broad-brush estimate of monthly income something we can discuss for folks like me planning for the family?

I assume the income varies a lot month-to-month...

e6bpilot
02-22-2018, 07:36 PM
Monthly income will be approx 5k net after taxes while in training (paid min guarantee no perdiem). Once you are on the line it will vary from month but I would say the average probie probably clears 6.5k considering perdiem and extra pay here and there. If you hustle and fly extra you can earn a lot more.
Commuting costs will vary by base. OAK is by far the worst. No crash pads at all. Commuter hotels vary but I would plan on $90 a night. Good news is OAK is one month and done. All the other bases have some sort of crash pads or other arrangements.
Your first month if you are in Oakland you wonít be on reserve, you will have a line so just plan on one hotel room per trip you fly out of there.
Reserve is best done in a crash pad imo. The schedules are just too unpredictable to use hotels. Commuting to reserve is a circadian nightmare and you are best to have a place to rest that is semi permanent. Most crash pads are in the $150-200 range.
Once you are off reserve it is just whatever works for you. Most use hotels at $50-90 a night.
Preparing and bringing your own food saves money and is healthier. I pack about a meal a day (I donít carry a big food bag, just a tote that has a built in cooler) and some healthy snacks and breakfast bars along with fruit. The rest I eat at airports and hotels or if I am downtown at local places. I budget myself $30/day on food and probably spend $10/day on prepared meals and snacks.
If you hustle, you can clear over $100k easily your first year. Second year pay is available on any open time trips. Talk to your friends for details. Best of luck.

Burton78
02-22-2018, 07:43 PM
As a commuter, Iíd rather have trips that are not commutable on one end and 18 days off rather than non-productive trips and 14 days off. I can always take a nap in the sleep room at the end of a pm trip and catch the first flight out the next morning or just pull a late night on a fedex js. Iím a PMír though, so that plan works easier than for an AMír.



I would be in favor of some long call reserve periods, though.



^^^This, right here. I want my time away from home to be as productive as possible. The last thing I want is for my trips being further diluted for the sake of commuting. I call BS on Zap as far as the non existence of commutable lines. They are there for the taking although they sometimes do take a little legwork to acquire. I have gone months commuting easily on both sides of the trip . It really just depends on where you live and how the flights to your home work out. YMMV


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RJSAviator76
02-22-2018, 07:58 PM
I wouldn't mind "long call" in line with reserve trip ownership. In other words, if Scheduling awards a trip in DOT for the next day, and the pilot chooses to "own" the awarded trip, there's your "long call."

Also, as I said many times before, I'd like to see reserve blocks tradeable in ELITT.

ZapBrannigan
02-22-2018, 09:03 PM
E6B, what kind of tote with built in cooler do you use?


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e6bpilot
02-23-2018, 02:52 AM
http://www.luggageworks.com/aurora-cooler-tote-combo.html

It makes a good tote and a not so great cooler. There are other products out there that look like they work better but I havenít tried any of them. I can get three meals, some fruit, and an ice bag and maybe a couple yogurts in the cooler part.

WHACKMASTER
02-23-2018, 03:37 AM
As a commuter, Iíd rather have trips that are not commutable on one end and 18 days off rather than non-productive trips and 14 days off. I can always take a nap in the sleep room at the end of a pm trip and catch the first flight out the next morning or just pull a late night on a fedex js. Iím a PMír though, so that plan works easier than for an AMír.

I would be in favor of some long call reserve periods, though.

Exactly! The last thing I ever want to see on property is inefficient trips. Theyíre there now somewhat, but I donít want our B737 lines to look like they do at UAL, AA, etc (same credit but 2-3 mores days of work).

This coming from someone who commutes off and on.

HwkrPlt
03-08-2018, 04:58 AM
Just for giggles, can a SWA F/O with enough seniority to hold a line post one of their schedules? I am curious to see what kind of flying someone actually does there.

saab2000
03-08-2018, 05:29 AM
Just for giggles, can a SWA F/O with enough seniority to hold a line post one of their schedules? I am curious to see what kind of flying someone actually does there.

Here's my March schedule. I traded most of my originally assigned trips for ones that finish very early on Day 3, allowing me to commute home on the first flight out of MDW. I have 16 days off after originally having 18 days off but I traded into trips that have no monthly overlap into April.

I'm home by lunchtime on Day 3, so they're almost like having the day off even though it's a work day. I'm crediting 97+ TFP for March, so breaking guarantee and I have about 128 TFP coming from February, where I moved into a few 4-day trips from 3-day trips and increased my credit, plus there were some major reroutes that were weather related. I don't remember how many days I worked and there was a sick call in there. That's higher than my usual credit but there are plenty of folks who credit 140+ TFP.

HwkrPlt
03-08-2018, 05:50 AM
Here's my March schedule. I traded most of my originally assigned trips for ones that finish very early on Day 3, allowing me to commute home on the first flight out of MDW. I have 16 days off after originally having 18 days off but I traded into trips that have no monthly overlap into April.

I'm home by lunchtime on Day 3, so they're almost like having the day off even though it's a work day. I'm crediting 97+ TFP for March, so breaking guarantee and I have about 128 TFP coming from February, where I moved into a few 4-day trips from 3-day trips and increased my credit, plus there were some major reroutes that were weather related. I don't remember how many days I worked and there was a sick call in there. That's higher than my usual credit but there are plenty of folks who credit 140+ TFP.

I'm not 100% sure how to read that, how many legs are you flying on each day? I'm guessing the identifiers are overnights.

regardless I would kill to have a schedule like that.....

saab2000
03-08-2018, 06:50 AM
I'm not 100% sure how to read that, how many legs are you flying on each day? I'm guessing the identifiers are overnights.

regardless I would kill to have a schedule like that.....

Generally it's 2-3 legs per day. They're longer legs than we flew when I was a CRJ pilot at a regional. We flew more legs and had more "Airport Appreciation" sits. There's much less of that at Southwest. I am based in MDW. My schedule tomorrow, for example, is MDW-ATL-HOU-BHM. So three legs. The last day is just one leg back from Boston.

But don't be mistaken, the trips here can be tiring as well. The long legs are tiring and operating at bigger, busier airports can be tricky at times. The biggest day I had was 5 legs and it was all in and out of LAX and SFO, up and down the California coast with long, confusing taxi times and lots going on. But it's generally productive. I get just as much credit here in a 3-day trip as I did on a 4-day trip in my RJ life.

I'm very appreciative of everything I have at Southwest. The company has been great and the crews are a delight for the most part. Operationally there's simply no comparison to life at a regional. This is orders of magnitude better and the schedules are much better. It was not uncommon for my monthly schedule at my old regional to have as few as 12 days off per month and some folks have less than that at their companies. The fact that I can routinely get as many as 18 is incredible.

FWIW, I am not quite a year online and this March schedule is the first time I've been awarded a hard line. Until now I have been getting blank lines, some with full flying and others with a mix of reserve and flying. Reserve in domicile is easy but it's less good if you need to commute to it. Line flying is great though. I hope to continue to improve in seniority enough to hold hard lines or blank lines with all assigned flying going forward.

Twinjetav8r
03-08-2018, 06:57 AM
How long to hold blank lines in MDW? I was reserve January, blank line February and reserve this month. Started six months ago.


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saab2000
03-08-2018, 07:06 AM
How long to hold blank lines in MDW? I was reserve January, blank line February and reserve this month. Started six months ago.


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I had a hard line built for my training month of April and the next full month of May. So I started reserve in June and basically flew all summer, every day except two. It fell off hard in September and I think I got a blank line in October, but it was mostly reserve. I don't remember the exact timeline but I had reserve in my blank lines as late as January.

I would expect that you'll hold blank lines soon and even if you're on reserve you'll start flying more I would expect.

I was a February 2017 hire.

NarcolepticAV8R
03-08-2018, 07:23 AM
Saab2000, thanks for posting this info. Itís great insight for us hopefuls!

HwkrPlt
03-08-2018, 08:33 AM
Generally it's 2-3 legs per day. They're longer legs than we flew when I was a CRJ pilot at a regional. We flew more legs and had more "Airport Appreciation" sits. There's much less of that at Southwest. I am based in MDW. My schedule tomorrow, for example, is MDW-ATL-HOU-BHM. So three legs. The last day is just one leg back from Boston.

But don't be mistaken, the trips here can be tiring as well. The long legs are tiring and operating at bigger, busier airports can be tricky at times. The biggest day I had was 5 legs and it was all in and out of LAX and SFO, up and down the California coast with long, confusing taxi times and lots going on. But it's generally productive. I get just as much credit here in a 3-day trip as I did on a 4-day trip in my RJ life.

I'm very appreciative of everything I have at Southwest. The company has been great and the crews are a delight for the most part. Operationally there's simply no comparison to life at a regional. This is orders of magnitude better and the schedules are much better. It was not uncommon for my monthly schedule at my old regional to have as few as 12 days off per month and some folks have less than that at their companies. The fact that I can routinely get as many as 18 is incredible.

FWIW, I am not quite a year online and this March schedule is the first time I've been awarded a hard line. Until now I have been getting blank lines, some with full flying and others with a mix of reserve and flying. Reserve in domicile is easy but it's less good if you need to commute to it. Line flying is great though. I hope to continue to improve in seniority enough to hold hard lines or blank lines with all assigned flying going forward.

Thanks for the info.

Twinjetav8r
03-09-2018, 04:46 PM
Thanks Saab. I got a reserve line for April, but I needed a certain weekend off for my daughterís regatta. Maybe May!


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at6d
03-09-2018, 07:10 PM
Just for giggles, can a SWA F/O with enough seniority to hold a line post one of their schedules? I am curious to see what kind of flying someone actually does there.

Just started year 3. For April I have three-day trips, Sun-Tues with the rest off. It pays 101 TFP so far.

How do I upload a pic?

Smooth at FL450
03-09-2018, 10:42 PM
Flew 1 leg today, 1.3 block, with a 2130 report time. All part of a normal pairing. Tomorrow is 2 legs, TPA-PHX-OAK after 18 hours of rest. We donít always work hard...

SlipKid
05-14-2018, 07:36 AM
That is probably true. Who flies their line, though?

Sorry for the zombie thread resurrection, but I will be most likely flying most of my awarded line in June for the first time in over 15 years, and not by choice.

I refuse to do AMs for a variety of reasons, and haven't had to in almost 18 years. :eek:

PM flying migrating west has made every month like February in the pre ELITT days for PM folks in MCO. 2/3s of the hard lines in June were AM, and this lack of PMs trickles down into open time and TTGA.

There is very little in the way of PMs in ELITT, TTGA or open time the last few months.

Forget premium, I've been having trouble simply moving my weekday flying to the weekends to build 5-6 day blocks, something I've been doing for years to reduce the number of commutes every month.

My schedule quality and pay has regressed to back when I was mega junior.

To put this in perspective, this May, I will end up making almost $10k less than last May working 1 less day than I did last year.

e6bpilot
05-14-2018, 12:18 PM
Sorry for the zombie thread resurrection, but I will be most likely flying most of my awarded line in June for the first time in over 15 years, and not by choice.



I refuse to do AMs for a variety of reasons, and haven't had to in almost 18 years. :eek:



PM flying migrating west has made every month like February in the pre ELITT days for PM folks in MCO. 2/3s of the hard lines in June were AM, and this lack of PMs trickles down into open time and TTGA.



There is very little in the way of PMs in ELITT, TTGA or open time the last few months.



Forget premium, I've been having trouble simply moving my weekday flying to the weekends to build 5-6 day blocks, something I've been doing for years to reduce the number of commutes every month.



My schedule quality and pay has regressed to back when I was mega junior.



To put this in perspective, this May, I will end up making almost $10k less than last May working 1 less day than I did last year.



Slip,
The captains are finally feeling what the FOs have been dealing with since the classic retirements. It peaked in December - February on our side but now that upgrades have finally started catching up, we have had a semi normal spring.
I flew no Premium in late December through early March, but since then I have been starting to get trips on the margins (usually in hourly open time, usually out of domicile). My schedule flexibility has been decent, mainly due to overlap drop and ELITT, but I will also fly AM trips if I am making time and a half.
Of course, I am mid seniority in a junior base and that helps. I have been able to give away or trade down every month also.

SlipKid
05-14-2018, 12:54 PM
Slip,
The captains are finally feeling what the FOs have been dealing with since the classic retirements. It peaked in December - February on our side but now that upgrades have finally started catching up, we have had a semi normal spring.
I flew no Premium in late December through early March, but since then I have been starting to get trips on the margins (usually in hourly open time, usually out of domicile). My schedule flexibility has been decent, mainly due to overlap drop and ELITT, but I will also fly AM trips if I am making time and a half.
Of course, I am mid seniority in a junior base and that helps. I have been able to give away or trade down every month also.

I am not sure we're talking about the same thing. This is not just about premium, it's about the complete lack of PM trips.

I am sitting around 20% in my seat/domicile, and have cleared or almost cleared my board every month for years. I then rebuilt my line with as much premium as possible in 10-13 days of flying, and then filled in any gaps with straight trips, rarely working more than 12-13 days.

Since February, clearing my board has been easier than usual. The problem is that there are very few PMs in open time, ELITT or TTGA to replace my original trips with.

I had my May board cleared down to one weekday 2 day before ELITT opened. When I saw how little PM flying there was, I started cherry picking good paying trips out of TTGA, and built up a 90 tfp line for 11 days. Last May, I worked 12 days and cleared 130 tfp.

I've been able to trade exactly ONE trip since 4/25, and that was doing a guy a favor who wanted a layover I had.

I actually bid a line I can live with for June, instead of bidding a line that I could get rid of easily.

e6bpilot
05-14-2018, 01:28 PM
Oh gotcha.
Agree on the AM trips. Even in HOU, the AM lines outnumber the PM by a lot and the trips in elitt are almost exclusively ball crushing AM trips with early shows. I have heard the opposite problem on the west coast.
Not my cup of tea either, but I have adapted and overcome somewhat. It helps that there are a handful of late AM shows and my commuter city has an early AM flight that makes a lot of them commutable.
As we stretch the day out, I think there is a tendency to move show times to the left for all our flying. That plus the bar on west coast crews doing east coast AMs means all those highly desirable northeast AM trips fall to the eastern and central time zone bases.

Stitches
05-15-2018, 06:43 PM
Slip,
I feel your pain as Iím a pmíer as well however if you refuse to fly AMís you are severely limiting your ability to leverage your seniority as AM trips make up about 65% of east coast trips. Thatís a huge chunk of flying to take yourself out of the running for.

Sounds like youíve decided a 30% pay cut is worth it to stay on PMís and youíve adapted by bidding a PM line and keeping it. The only other thing I could suggest is taking a paid move West when LAX opens.

If itís any consolation I noticed a pretty big plus up in Mco and the other east coast bases when the company started shifting amís to the east coast.

SlipKid
05-15-2018, 10:08 PM
Slip,
I feel your pain as Iím a pmíer as well however if you refuse to fly AMís you are severely limiting your ability to leverage your seniority as AM trips make up about 65% of east coast trips. Thatís a huge chunk of flying to take yourself out of the running for.

Yup.

FWIW, I didn't take myself out of the "running", since AMs haven't been a consideration for me in almost 2 decades. The company took the "running" away from me. :D

Sounds like youíve decided a 30% pay cut is worth it to stay on PMís and youíve adapted by bidding a PM line and keeping it.

Yes, and it's worth every penny.

AMs simply aren't an option for me, for a variety of reasons.

The complete loss of scheduling flexibility is a far bigger hit than the pay. :eek:

The only other thing I could suggest is taking a paid move West when LAX opens.

Umm, no....... I'll quit first.

If itís any consolation I noticed a pretty big plus up in Mco and the other east coast bases when the company started shifting amís to the east coast.

No consolation whatsoever.

I guess they are manning for the inevitable fatigue calls.

HwkrPlt
06-21-2018, 10:49 AM
Can someone who is a F/O post what they made last year, and how many years you've been at SWA?

e6bpilot
06-21-2018, 11:01 AM
That is going to net you a wide variety of answers. Depends on base, flying habits, and commuter status. Take pay/TFP, multiply by 1200, go plus 40 percent and minus 30 percent and there is your range.
Seriously.

HwkrPlt
06-21-2018, 11:15 AM
That is going to net you a wide variety of answers. Depends on base, flying habits, and commuter status. Take pay/TFP, multiply by 1200, go plus 40 percent and minus 30 percent and there is your range.
Seriously.

What kind of circumstances would lead you to make that "Minus 30%" number?

ANGFlight81
06-21-2018, 11:29 AM
Can someone who is a F/O post what they made last year, and how many years you've been at SWA?


Uh, no. Average tfp per month is roughly 107. Some guys much much more, others 90ish. Pump the numbers into your calculator; you can do this!

e6bpilot
06-21-2018, 12:12 PM
What kind of circumstances would lead you to make that "Minus 30%" number?



Either voluntary giving away trips or mil leave. If you just fly your line you will get around 100tfp per month average.

Warhawg01
06-21-2018, 12:37 PM
My first year at SWA. Consider this pretty close to the minimum:

- 1280 Total TFP flown
- Average per month: 107
- High: 133 (On reserve)
- Low: 91 (assigned hardline after IOE that I didn't touch)

- Total Block: 701 hours
- Average per Month: 61
- High: 88
- Low: 32

Total number of trips picked up from *any* source: 1 x 3 Day, from Open Time and paid at second year pay.

Total Days worked: 136
Total TAFB: 94 Days
% of Reserve days not called to work: 25%

Two hardline months after IOE
Five months of reserve
Four months of a blank line

Three months commuting, the rest living in base.

Gross Pay: $87.8K
Per Diem: $5.5K
Company 401K B-Fund Contribution: $11.7K

flyguy81
06-21-2018, 01:20 PM
1. 69.34
2. 100.26
3. 111.63
4. 123.23
5. 134.99

Add 3% on Sept 1. Those are the pay rates for yr 1-5 FO's.

If you fly your line you'll credit 95-100. If you mess with your schedule you can do 120-130 fairly easily (easier if you live in base).

I did $87k yr 1 on the old CBA.
I did $162k yr 2
Midway through yr 3 and am at $90k ytd.

ROFF
06-21-2018, 06:01 PM
Call me paranoid but not sure it's the best thing to be sharing income info here.

Guys have gotten royalty screwed when this info gets in certain hands.

Smooth at FL450
06-21-2018, 08:52 PM
Call me paranoid but not sure it's the best thing to be sharing income info here.

Guys have gotten royalty screwed when this info gets in certain hands.




How so? All of our payrates are listed under the Airline Profiles section anyway...anyone with a calculator could figure out what we make.

PowerShift
06-23-2018, 11:12 AM
That is going to net you a wide variety of answers. Depends on base, flying habits, and commuter status. Take pay/TFP, multiply by 1200, go plus 40 percent and minus 30 percent and there is your range.
Seriously.

Thatís a really good, and accurate range.

If you live in base, work the system, put work first, you can be at the top of the range.

If you commute (not all commutes are equal) picking up may not be an option or occasionally doable.

And seniority adds a huge factor to bidding lines that are tradeable, and poaching open time.

As a commuter on reserve most of my first year (last year) I was reserve for 9 months, and was commuting the day before trips, and the day after.

StayFrosty
06-23-2018, 12:20 PM
Iím a commuter and on first year. Here is my breakdown since January. I do pickup and try to fly smart while maintaining as much QOL as possible as compared to income. I took a large pay hit coming here and have no choice but to lower some QOL this year but know the long run is all worth it. I luckily have a very supportive family.
Just my $.02 and your results may vary. I show this only as an example of what I did, not whether it is good or bad or to compare with anyone else. I envy all those that can drop everything and chill and Iím in awe of those that do 200+ TFP/mo.

January
129.63
29.02 at 2nd year

February
103.87
17.7 at 2nd year

March
146.82
14.52 at 2nd year

April
144.54
37.40 at 2nd year

May
69.34
Had a family health issue and basically stayed home. This was a nice change of pace, family member health issues aside.

June (if nothing changes)
123.16
32.45 at 2nd year

Will be off of first year in a few months so looking forward to that.

Our flexibility to pickup is great. To drop, not so great. Overall itís a great place to work and with great people, in my opinion.

FlyingPirate
06-23-2018, 12:34 PM
Iím a commuter and on first year. Here is my breakdown since January. I do pickup and try to fly smart while maintaining as much QOL as possible as compared to income. I took a large pay hit coming here and have no choice but to lower some QOL this year but know the long run is all worth it. I luckily have a very supportive family.
Just my $.02 and your results may vary. I show this only as an example of what I did, not whether it is good or bad or to compare with anyone else. I envy all those that can drop everything and chill and Iím in awe of those that do 200+ TFP/mo.

January
129.63
29.02 at 2nd year

February
103.87
17.7 at 2nd year

March
146.82
14.52 at 2nd year

April
144.54
37.40 at 2nd year

May
69.34
Had a family health issue and basically stayed home. This was a nice change of pace, family member health issues aside.

June (if nothing changes)
123.16
32.45 at 2nd year

Will be off of first year in a few months so looking forward to that.

Our flexibility to pickup is great. To drop, not so great. Overall itís a great place to work and with great people, in my opinion.

You are working waaaaaaay too hard. What base?

StayFrosty
06-23-2018, 12:40 PM
You are working waaaaaaay too hard. What base?

Depends on what it is compared against. From my past life, Iím not working as hard month over month but harder daily. I did these numbers while maintaining 11-14 days off. While it was difficult to make long stretches of days off, I seem to have now found a formula which works better for me. How long it will last is anyoneís gues.

Iíd rather not say which base...anonymity and all. 🥃

fcrx
06-23-2018, 05:10 PM
Averaging 95 trips per month at 14 days average a month... No extra pick up...

Every time I read about new people “averaging” 125 or more I cringe thinking about the misrepresentation for those applying... if you plan on continuing to work a regional schedule, sure. Like stayfrosty said above 11-14 days off. You have that choice here which is cool. But not even close flying my line. (Which has been almost entirely reserve)

I know peeps with a couple years seniority that are actually able to pick up at premium and hold 125... at about 13 days working but for me first year no way. I’m sure there is some small variation base to base.

With low seniority like myself I would have to give up 3-4 days off to average 125... about 18 days on to get 125 for me... truth no BS no ego

WHACKMASTER
06-23-2018, 06:53 PM
Depends on what it is compared against. From my past life, Iím not working as hard month over month but harder daily. I did these numbers while maintaining 11-14 days off. While it was difficult to make long stretches of days off, I seem to have now found a formula which works better for me. How long it will last is anyoneís gues.

Iíd rather not say which base...anonymity and all. 🥃

And thatís exactly what I value and really, REALLY, hope that we donít ever lose the ability to come to the work and bust our a$$ for three days and fly a trip worth 25 TFP+.

Then go home for 4-5 days off and rinse and repeat.

BigWillyCapt
06-23-2018, 08:54 PM
And thatís exactly what I value and really, REALLY, hope that we donít ever lose the ability to come to the work and bust our a$$ for three days and fly a trip worth 25 TFP+.

Then go home for 4-5 days off and rinse and repeat.

Exactly. I did 20 hour 4 days at a regional. Just getting done with training, but if I can make the same hours working 3-4 less days a month I'll take it.

at6d
06-24-2018, 12:32 AM
Exactly. I did 20 hour 4 days at a regional. Just getting done with training, but if I can make the same hours working 3-4 less days a month I'll take it.

We still do 20+ hour four days....

Iím 2.5 years in. Super easy to do 100 TFP just flying my line. I enjoy days off.

PowerShift
06-24-2018, 07:35 AM
We still do 20+ hour four days....

Iím 2.5 years in. Super easy to do 100 TFP just flying my line. I enjoy days off.

Do you live in base?

Peacock
06-24-2018, 08:23 AM
We still do 20+ hour four days....

Iím 2.5 years in. Super easy to do 100 TFP just flying my line. I enjoy days off.
Doesnít it have to be at least 26?

Smooth at FL450
06-24-2018, 09:33 AM
Doesn’t it have to be at least 26?

I’m guessing he means 20 block/credit hours. If he’s doing 20 TFP 4-Days, he’s doing it wrong...

at6d
06-24-2018, 01:59 PM
Ha yesólast four day was 22 block but paid 35 TFP.

I drive 1.5 hours to base and bid PM lines only.

In July I have three on, four off PM trips starting on a Monday, with 17 days off. Pays 103 so far.

A buddy of mine with same seniority bids reserve on purpose (in base). If they donít fly him he bids trips on scheduled off days. Heís had several months where he did 160+ TFP.

Thunder1
06-24-2018, 04:17 PM
A buddy of mine with same seniority bids reserve on purpose (in base). If they don’t fly him he bids trips on scheduled off days. He’s had several months where he did 160+ TFP.

You nailed it -- right now with our over-manning on the FO side it is easy to get 150+ TFP per month by trading for reserve trips and enjoy your time off when they don't use you and then pick up a trip from open time or trip trade after a block of unused reserve. Obviously only a game that non-commuters want to play.
With half the year over my six month average is at 155 TFP since January. Average actual fly days per month --- 12 days with 2 weeks of vacation and one sick call since Jan.
Enjoy it while it lasts because once Hawaii flying starts I think we will be back to more normal reserve flying at Southwest.

e6bpilot
06-24-2018, 04:49 PM
Reserve per day is the biggest non retirement gain of the last contract for the pilot group as a whole. No other airline that I am aware of uses a daily guarantee.
I am a commuter and donít do reserve, but the pay plus the ability for reserves to give away formerly untouchable reserve blocks is huge.

Thunder1
06-24-2018, 05:02 PM
Reserve per day is the biggest non retirement gain of the last contract for the pilot group as a whole. No other airline that I am aware of uses a daily guarantee.
I am a commuter and donít do reserve, but the pay plus the ability for reserves to give away formerly untouchable reserve blocks is huge.

Agreed -- pay per day was a big win. Most F/O 4 day blocks of reserve on the FO side you don't get used on day1 or day 4 so if you live in domicile and they do use you for a 3-day on your 4 day block of reserve it's going to pay a minimum of 25.5 for the 4 day block -- that's a pretty fat 3 day trip...

flensr
06-24-2018, 09:10 PM
For every success story there's another guy bottom feeding 'cause he can't figure out how to work the scheduling process.

I'm going to end June with 113 TFP, only 3.4 of which are any sort of premium, and I can't add ANYTHING else because I'm hitting block limits. Watching all sorts of open time wander by that I'm not even legal for, 'cause I traded a one low block trip for a high block trip without any premium, and jammed myself into a corner. Oops. And next month is equally screwed up because, you guessed it, block limits and it's reserves in summer so they'll probably keep me busy. If they don't simply sit me for one reserve block, it could be another month before I can even try to bid anything extra.

Typical new-guy mistake, get all crazy trading short trips for long trips and work myself out of any sort of premium or second year pay options. Next time I'll be less dumb, for sure :)

RJSAviator76
06-24-2018, 09:22 PM
For every success story there's another guy bottom feeding 'cause he can't figure out how to work the scheduling process.



I'm going to end June with 113 TFP, only 3.4 of which are any sort of premium, and I can't add ANYTHING else because I'm hitting block limits. Watching all sorts of open time wander by that I'm not even legal for, 'cause I traded a one low block trip for a high block trip without any premium, and jammed myself into a corner. Oops. And next month is equally screwed up because, you guessed it, block limits and it's reserves in summer so they'll probably keep me busy. If they don't simply sit me for one reserve block, it could be another month before I can even try to bid anything extra.



Typical new-guy mistake, get all crazy trading short trips for long trips and work myself out of any sort of premium or second year pay options. Next time I'll be less dumb, for sure :)



If youíre on reserve, trade away your reserve blocks for bid pairings with other guys and then use ELITT to drop your block.

Remember, unassigned reserve liability for up to 3-days is 6 hours of block per day. Thatís why you wanna trade those away for anything less than that.

utahpilot
06-24-2018, 09:47 PM
YTD gross pay of 53,185. All on first year, commuter, have picked up some premium, not much.

barabek
06-25-2018, 01:44 AM
For every success story there's another guy bottom feeding 'cause he can't figure out how to work the scheduling process.

I'm going to end June with 113 TFP, only 3.4 of which are any sort of premium, and I can't add ANYTHING else because I'm hitting block limits. Watching all sorts of open time wander by that I'm not even legal for, 'cause I traded a one low block trip for a high block trip without any premium, and jammed myself into a corner. Oops. And next month is equally screwed up because, you guessed it, block limits and it's reserves in summer so they'll probably keep me busy. If they don't simply sit me for one reserve block, it could be another month before I can even try to bid anything extra.

Typical new-guy mistake, get all crazy trading short trips for long trips and work myself out of any sort of premium or second year pay options. Next time I'll be less dumb, for sure :)

I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but I think you're confusing premium with open time. As a newbie on the 1st year pay you probably don't stand a chance to get any premium trip regardless if you are under or over the cap. You can always get straight pay open time and get 2nd year pay. The monthly cap does not apply if you bid straight time. That also applies to reserve blocks from open time (second year pay) and monthly open time. The only time you won't get second year pay is if you drop below your line guarantee. Then all the time you pick up to equal your guarantee is 1st year pay. Now, if you're saying youíre exceeding block time or 117 regs, then you definitely are doing something wrong...

miguelito2
06-25-2018, 02:11 AM
YTD gross pay of 53,185. All on first year, commuter, have picked up some premium, not much.
Do you do a lot of 3 day trips?

RJSAviator76
06-25-2018, 05:32 AM
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but I think you're confusing premium with open time. As a newbie on the 1st year pay you probably don't stand a chance to get any premium trip regardless if you are under or over the cap. You can always get straight pay open time and get 2nd year pay. The monthly cap does not apply if you bid straight time.That also applies to reserve blocks from open time (second year pay) and monthly open time. The only time you won't get second year pay is if you drop below your line guarantee. Then all the time you pick up to equal your guarantee is 1st year pay. Now, if you're saying youíre exceeding block time or 117 regs, then you definitely are doing something wrong...


Actually, the cap still applies to in-category bidders. Anyone over-the-cap bidding straight will beat out anyone bidding premium. But, between two straight time bidders, if a junior is under the cap and senior is over the cap, the junior will still beat him.

As for being able to get a true premium trip on first year, it heavily depends on a base. Watch out for SNOTPís and maybe a HOT in oddball times of day... times have definitely changed this year. I was able to get all the premium I cared for as a first year guy a couple years ago... now, itís a struggle. They need to upgrade more people as itís not nearly as bad on the captain side.

THEKERNALKLINK
06-25-2018, 06:24 AM
What does it mean when all my legacy friends say you will work your tail off at SWA? Is it that bad? I don't see the horrible chains and slave labor they speak of...can someone elaborate?

Others pay more per hour to fly the same equipment, but you are going to get jammed up for 24-30 hrs each layover. I just want to get back home, or have more time to pick up something extra. The efficiency and faster pace here is a huge plus. I HATE having my time taken, and not earning.

The huge hourly pay for wide bodies at a legacy carrier is a mixed bag of tricks. It would be torture for me to fly long haul and have to sit while my body adjusted to the time difference. Would I love to fly a 777 with a set of GE-90's on it? I have to admit, yes, yes I would, but it would kill me to sit on my ass for 2 days at $2/hr. That novelty would go away quick.

How many times can one really get a thrill out of seeing the same sights over and over? I get a lot more excited about a good BBQ joint than I do the Eiffel Tower anyways.

All that being said, I'd be working somewhere else if they'd hired me 1st. It wasn't shooting fish in a barrel 18 years ago. Maybe this new generation has to weigh their choices.

ZapBrannigan
06-25-2018, 07:20 AM
I'd be working somewhere else if they'd hired me 1st. It wasn't shooting fish in a barrel 18 years ago. Maybe this new generation has to weigh their choices.


This is the smartest paragraph on this thread. There are two types of pre-9/11 pilots at SWA.

1. Those who applied at everyone who was hiring and ended up at SWA.

2. Those who applied at everyone who was hiring, went to a legacy, got furloughed, did some other stuff, and ended up at SWA.

Youíre going to get very different stories about why/how each one ended up at SWA. A lot of it has to do with luck and timing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Proximity
06-25-2018, 07:31 AM
How many times can one really get a thrill out of seeing the same sights over and over? I get a lot more excited about a good BBQ joint than I do the Eiffel Tower anyways.

The great thing about a legacy airline is choices.

I fly PMs here and usually by the time we arrive at the hotel I'm too beat to find a BBQ joint, not that anything is open at the hours a PM pilot usually arrives at the hotel. I don't mind banging out trips and having more off time, but the cost of that is trips that are more fatiguing.

At a legacy, you can switch equipment types and it's almost like having a new job. At SWA, once you've been here a year, you've pretty much seen everything. No doubt my retirement trip will be a PM 3-day with the typical MCI/TPA layovers.

I'm here because this is the place that hired me first. Ironically I though this place only hired people with 737 types and fighter pilots, and I only visited SWA at a job fair because I'd already seen the big-D that year and they only score your app once per a year, making a second job fair visit within 12 months a waste. I'm perfectly happy here, but anyone with choices should make an informed choice. I see not wanting to spend the rest of your career flying the 737 and laying over at business park hotels a valid reason to not consider SWA. Rocky will even tell you this in the interview, if you want to fly the 777 this is not the place for you.

flensr
06-25-2018, 07:35 AM
If youíre on reserve, trade away your reserve blocks for bid pairings with other guys and then use ELITT to drop your block.

Remember, unassigned reserve liability for up to 3-days is 6 hours of block per day. Thatís why you wanna trade those away for anything less than that.

I have all my reserve blocks up on TTGA for straight drop and I managed to trade one reserve block for a a regular trip, but the others are still sitting in TTGA. What's the trick to effectively getting rid of the other reserve blocks?

at6d
06-25-2018, 07:38 AM
I had some success with not just having reserve in giveaway, but each block also up for trade with a trip. This seemed to work ok towards the second half of the month.

Once I got a trip, Iíd ELITT for a better option.

Proximity
06-25-2018, 07:39 AM
For every success story there's another guy bottom feeding 'cause he can't figure out how to work the scheduling process.

My advice to anyone joining Southwest, second after strongly advising them to move to base, is to spend time studying the contract and how things work here like TTGA, ELITT, vacation bidding, and most importantly OT, the cap, and buffers.

I see my friends at legacies just bid their vacation, bid their line, and be done with looking at stuff for the month. At SWA, it behoves you to use all the tools available to improve your pay and QQL. A junior FO won't be able to get awarded summer vacation and a weekend off line. Yet you see junior FOs with lots of weekends off and summer vacation, your awarded line here is just a starting point. I usually don't fly a single trip on my original line, and have made many vacation trades, much to my benefit.

flensr
06-25-2018, 07:39 AM
I'm not sure if I understand you correctly but I think you're confusing premium with open time. As a newbie on the 1st year pay you probably don't stand a chance to get any premium trip regardless if you are under or over the cap. You can always get straight pay open time and get 2nd year pay. The monthly cap does not apply if you bid straight time. That also applies to reserve blocks from open time (second year pay) and monthly open time. The only time you won't get second year pay is if you drop below your line guarantee. Then all the time you pick up to equal your guarantee is 1st year pay. Now, if you're saying youíre exceeding block time or 117 regs, then you definitely are doing something wrong...

I understand the difference between premium and open time, but thx for making sure :) I blocked 53 hrs in May, should block another 77 in June, and with July pretty much filled with reserve blocks every time I try to pick up from open time I get about 5 98:30 violation errors in the legality check due to the reserve blocks counting as 6 hrs block every day.

Right now I'm working on shedding or trading away those reserve blocks so I can bid on open time or fiddle with ELITT again, but so far I've only managed to trade away a single reserve block.

flensr
06-25-2018, 07:48 AM
My advice to anyone joining Southwest, second after strongly advising them to move to base, is to spend time studying the contract and how things work here like TTGA, ELITT, vacation bidding, and most importantly OT, the cap, and buffers.

I see my friends at legacies just bid their vacation, bid their line, and be done with looking at stuff for the month. At SWA, it behoves you to use all the tools available to improve your pay and QQL. A junior FO won't be able to get awarded summer vacation and a weekend off line. Yet you see junior FOs with lots of weekends off and summer vacation, your awarded line here is just a starting point. I usually don't fly a single trip on my original line, and have made many vacation trades, much to my benefit.

I agree, thanks! I'm working on it :) I made an early mistake (sort of) using ELITT to trade a 3 day 20 TFP trip for a 4 day 30 TFP trip, but that extra time wasn't at second year pay. I think I would have been better off clicking refresh on open time to find an easier way to get that extra TFP, and the longer block times in that 30 TFP trip has helped push me to 98:30 limits so I can't pick up anything at all right now until I get rid of some reserve blocks. Yea I got an extra 10 TFP in June for a single extra day of work which isn't bad and the trip itself was easier flying too, but it kind of tied my hands with respect to open time and second year pay opportunity.

I'm pretty sure once I can live in base (LAX for the win!) I'll have better luck massaging my schedule for QOL and/or pay. Getting in base and then getting off reserve are going to be like having an extra christmas and birthday party haha.

flensr
06-25-2018, 07:50 AM
I had some success with not just having reserve in giveaway, but each block also up for trade with a trip. This seemed to work ok towards the second half of the month.

Once I got a trip, Iíd ELITT for a better option.

I'll try throwing them up for trade too then. Thx!

utahpilot
06-25-2018, 07:54 AM
Do you do a lot of 3 day trips?


Pretty much all I do. 3 days make up the bulk of our trips

StayFrosty
06-25-2018, 08:29 AM
I agree, thanks! I'm working on it :) I made an early mistake (sort of) using ELITT to trade a 3 day 20 TFP trip for a 4 day 30 TFP trip, but that extra time wasn't at second year pay. I think I would have been better off clicking refresh on open time to find an easier way to get that extra TFP, and the longer block times in that 30 TFP trip has helped push me to 98:30 limits so I can't pick up anything at all right now until I get rid of some reserve blocks. Yea I got an extra 10 TFP in June for a single extra day of work which isn't bad and the trip itself was easier flying too, but it kind of tied my hands with respect to open time and second year pay opportunity.

I'm pretty sure once I can live in base (LAX for the win!) I'll have better luck massaging my schedule for QOL and/or pay. Getting in base and then getting off reserve are going to be like having an extra christmas and birthday party haha.

I was taught something early on...
Block. Block. Block. That is the most important factor to control. Control the block and you can for the most part control everything else. Let block get away from you and it becomes very difficult to enjoy all the scheduling bennies we have. When I ELITT the first thing I shoot for are the days off my wife has asked for and then to lower block. When I do fly, I try to do only original line value (first year pay) and then maximize what I earn in second year. Trading for a high paying 4 day in regular pay is rarely worth it as you already found out. If you like 4 days, pick up anything in MOT and then ELITT into something fat. At least then all that block is paying at 2nd year.

jetset
06-25-2018, 08:38 AM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/2494410-post134.html

e6bpilot
06-25-2018, 08:48 AM
I was taught something early on...

Block. Block. Block. That is the most important factor to control. Control the block and you can for the most part control everything else. Let block get away from you and it becomes very difficult to enjoy all the scheduling bennies we have. When I ELITT the first thing I shoot for are the days off my wife has asked for and then to lower block. When I do fly, I try to do only original line value (first year pay) and then maximize what I earn in second year. Trading for a high paying 4 day in regular pay is rarely worth it as you already found out. If you like 4 days, pick up anything in MOT and then ELITT into something fat. At least then all that block is paying at 2nd year.



Yep. This is part of my open time recipe. When I do fly straight time trips, I trade into low block 19.5 3 days. The lower block the better. I would much rather fly a 13 block 19.5 trip than a 18 block 22tfp trip.

When I fly open time, I try to mix in low block high deadhead trips and high block high paying trips. The latter are usually hard to come by.

Controlling block is absolutely the number one thing you can do to make yourself legal for open time flying.

RJSAviator76
06-25-2018, 08:53 AM
I had some success with not just having reserve in giveaway, but each block also up for trade with a trip. This seemed to work ok towards the second half of the month.




^^^^ This!

After putting your reserve block in TTGA for giveaway, do another one for trade (it will be blue after listing) and then write a note saying youíre willing to trade for a trip and your number. People donít want to pester if you just want to dump it, but if youíre willing to trade it, you will get called.

A buddy of mine had a crappy junior blank line which had mostly reserve blocks, and he put them all in TTGA along with trade requests. He didnít sit a single day of reserve as he traded all his reserve blocks for trips. As a commuter, he made his life that much easier for himself.

flensr
06-25-2018, 10:01 AM
If you like 4 days, pick up anything in MOT and then ELITT into something fat. At least then all that block is paying at 2nd year.

Great tips!

deleted question - found the answer. I didn't understand the value of MOT and how easy it would be to block myself from that entire process with just one high block trip out of ELITT. Maybe next month.

SlipKid
06-26-2018, 04:15 PM
They need to upgrade more people as itís not nearly as bad on the captain side.

It is in MCO Capt. Very little open time to begin with. What little there is is almost all AM trips, and even senior guys are bidding straight on this stuff. This has been going on all year, even in May and June! I don't see July being much better. :eek:

SlipKid
06-26-2018, 04:29 PM
Yep. This is part of my open time recipe. When I do fly straight time trips, I trade into low block 19.5 3 days. The lower block the better. I would much rather fly a 13 block 19.5 trip than a 18 block 22tfp trip.

When I fly open time, I try to mix in low block high deadhead trips and high block high paying trips. The latter are usually hard to come by.

Controlling block is absolutely the number one thing you can do to make yourself legal for open time flying.

Those "hard won" 117 block and duty time buffers are killer.

squirtinvert
06-30-2018, 03:30 PM
Here is another data point. I just finished my first year, and did 1120TFP for the year averaging 93TFP/month. I just flew my line and worked a touch over 13 days a month on average (gone ~15 days a month because most of the lines are not-commutable as you fly in the day prior). I flew ~802 block hours and am a commuter, and spent 5 months on reserve where I flew almost every day ( I volunteered to fly as much as possible). So to answer the question do you work your tail off at Southwest, you do work harder than the legacy counter parts for the block hours especially considering our pay rates are lower, but ability to adjust your schedule is hard to explain until you work here. Just be careful when listening to some of the high TFP/live in base give their numbers as they are not {average} as they would have you believe. I averaged 1 weekend off a month which is about what my legacy counterparts did as well but they had to either call in sick or drop their reserve block to do it (we cant drop reserve blocks here no matter the coverage). YMMV.

Skyward
06-30-2018, 04:58 PM
The thing is, you only have to work harder if you want to. Most of my months have been starting with 18 days off. I did one month at 149tfp and worked harder. I usually average about 100 doing 3on/4off. One month recently I pampered myself with 21 days off, but the paycheck suffered. Itís flexible and thatís what I like about it.

Kapitanleutnant
07-08-2018, 02:00 PM
One of the things that most annoy me about this airlines' crew scheduling practices... and how the hell the union allowed this to be part of the contract... is that at the finish of your trip day, or at the finish of your entire trip, you are susceptible to having to contact crew scheduling because the agent came on and said you had to.

Effectively, Southwest Airlines has quite literally 10,000 pilots ON RESERVE!!!!!!

I was not a happy camper after a 3 day coming home to base after a long transcon only to have to fly a victory lap of 3 more legs.

If I wanted to fly those three extra legs, dammit, I would have bid for trips that do that. I did NOT bid for those extra three legs!!

Those are what reserves are to be used for! SWA, having a few more reserves on call is the COST OF DOING BUSINESS!

Yes, I realized I could have called fatigued etc. Not the point.

How did this pass muster amongst us in contract talks???

Kap

Proximity
07-08-2018, 02:23 PM
How did this pass muster amongst us in contract talks???

It happened because people couldn't figure out how to not answer the phone at home on their day off if they didn't want to fly.

Adlerdriver
07-08-2018, 02:41 PM
...I was not a happy camper after a 3 day coming home to base after a long transcon only to have to fly a victory lap of 3 more legs.
Kap,
Was it 3 more legs in the same duty period as the transcon?
Or did they extend your trip more days?
Is this a threat for any normal lineholder on any trip?
Any method to decline other than fatigue?
What’s the extra pay for such a thing?

Psycho18th
07-08-2018, 03:12 PM
I donít understand that either. I get it when Iím on reserve, I have to call when back to base and still have duty time remaining, but not on a normal pairing. They basically get you for free if the trip youíre on is rigged, right? Example is a single LAX-PHX leg on day three. Pays 5 tfp that day. So, they can fly you an LAS or ABQ turn, plus ground time, before they exceed the 5...correct? So you could be working a couple more legs for free?

ZapBrannigan
07-08-2018, 03:21 PM
Kap,

Agree 1000%! And what worse is that we have pilots who not only defend the practice but who would throw a hissy if SWAPA were to fight it because they like the money.

I say there should be room for pilots who want quality of life AND pilots who want the extra money.

Allow me to make that choice in CWA. If I choose QOL I want it to automatically put any extensions or JAs into giveaway AND send a text alert to pilots who may be interested in premium or double time.

I also believe that it should pay 1.5 or 2 times the credit OR the rigs whichever is higher. No more of this JA that only pays 6.5. And if Iím JAíd into Christmas Day it had darned well pay 1.5 X holiday pay - so triple time.

Not everything is about money and I shouldnít have to call in fatigued to decline an extension Iím not interested in.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SlipKid
07-08-2018, 03:41 PM
It happened because people couldn't figure out how to not answer the phone at home on their day off if they didn't want to fly.

Yup.. SWApA and the pilot group handed it, and a bunch of other concessions, to the company on a silver platter in 2009, when we voted on the 2006 contract. We didn't even get COLA raises...... Such a proud moment. :eek:

SlipKid
07-08-2018, 03:43 PM
Kap,

Agree 1000%! And what worse is that we have pilots who not only defend the practice but who would throw a hissy if SWAPA were to fight it because they like the money.

I say there should be room for pilots who want quality of life AND pilots who want the extra money.

Allow me to make that choice in CWA. If I choose QOL I want it to automatically put any extensions or JAs into giveaway AND send a text alert to pilots who may be interested in premium or double time.

I also believe that it should pay 1.5 or 2 times the credit OR the rigs whichever is higher. No more of this JA that only pays 6.5. And if Iím JAíd into Christmas Day it had darned well pay 1.5 X holiday pay - so triple time.

Not everything is about money and I shouldnít have to call in fatigued to decline an extension Iím not interested in.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Preach it brother.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of your peers don't care.

Smooth at FL450
07-08-2018, 06:30 PM
Kap,

Agree 1000%! And what worse is that we have pilots who not only defend the practice but who would throw a hissy if SWAPA were to fight it because they like the money.

I say there should be room for pilots who want quality of life AND pilots who want the extra money.

Allow me to make that choice in CWA. If I choose QOL I want it to automatically put any extensions or JAs into giveaway AND send a text alert to pilots who may be interested in premium or double time.

I also believe that it should pay 1.5 or 2 times the credit OR the rigs whichever is higher. No more of this JA that only pays 6.5. And if Iím JAíd into Christmas Day it had darned well pay 1.5 X holiday pay - so triple time.

Not everything is about money and I shouldnít have to call in fatigued to decline an extension Iím not interested in.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes! If the sodomizer could see that a ďJA opt inĒ guy blocks in 5 minutes later than you, it could just give the trip to the person who wants it and save all kinds of emotional roller coasters

Kapitanleutnant
07-08-2018, 08:24 PM
Guys...

My last day was a one leg from Florida to a west coast base... And that's all it was scheduled as. Being it was a line, I had made some plans not realizing we're ALL on reserve!! By that third leg, I gotta say I was pretty tired but on probation, one sees things a bit different unfornately.

Wow did we miss BIG TIME on that little nugget!!!

Kap

Ps... I don't really care about it possibly being paid at a higher rate. I didn't want to fly other than my bid awarded line!!

Bluesideup1
07-09-2018, 02:25 AM
I know that everyone likes to ***** but *****es please.

You know at some other airlines they just acars to tell you that you are being rerouted. Every airline out there has the same thing that SW has. If they need people you will be used regardless of fact that you should be done.

Every airline will add trips, overnights, extensions and reroutes. Some have it better some have it worse on how they are paid, who gets assigned and how they can give it away.

Saying that I also believe the company should pay big time if they give you additional flying or an unscheduled overnight.

Right now we get 1.5X for move ups and I believe it is 2X for JA's. Like mentioned in the post above all additional flying should be at done at those multipliers including the rigs.

Bluesideup1
07-09-2018, 02:28 AM
One of the things that most annoy me about this airlines' crew scheduling practices... and how the hell the union allowed this to be part of the contract... is that at the finish of your trip day, or at the finish of your entire trip, you are susceptible to having to contact crew scheduling because the agent came on and said you had to.

Effectively, Southwest Airlines has quite literally 10,000 pilots ON RESERVE!!!!!!

I was not a happy camper after a 3 day coming home to base after a long transcon only to have to fly a victory lap of 3 more legs.

If I wanted to fly those three extra legs, dammit, I would have bid for trips that do that. I did NOT bid for those extra three legs!!

Those are what reserves are to be used for! SWA, having a few more reserves on call is the COST OF DOING BUSINESS!

Yes, I realized I could have called fatigued etc. Not the point.

How did this pass muster amongst us in contract talks???

Kap

You do know that every other airline has some form of this right?

Bluesideup1
07-09-2018, 02:35 AM
I donít understand that either. I get it when Iím on reserve, I have to call when back to base and still have duty time remaining, but not on a normal pairing. They basically get you for free if the trip youíre on is rigged, right? Example is a single LAX-PHX leg on day three. Pays 5 tfp that day. So, they can fly you an LAS or ABQ turn, plus ground time, before they exceed the 5...correct? So you could be working a couple more legs for free?

When they add to your pairing you get premium but yes you would be doing some flying for free on rigged pairing like that.

This needs to be changed just like in the last contract we finally got the reserves an average daily credit whether they worked it or not so there was no more sitting reserve for free once you hit your 90 trip guarantee.

This has caused many of us not to pick up that trip that flies 1 or 2 legs the first day with an early deadhead back the next because you are prime to be rerouted since you are on a heavily rigged trip typically.

ZapBrannigan
07-09-2018, 03:28 AM
You do know that every other airline has some form of this right?


Not true. SOME airlines permit junior manning. Not all. And it is not used as indiscriminately as it is here. Other airlines properly utilize their reserves to mitigate that need.

Iíve worked for 9 Airlines and have never been JAíd (or extended) as much as I have been here. This summer has so far been blissfully free from JA though.


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e6bpilot
07-09-2018, 05:22 AM
I was junior manned or last day rerouted into additional legs about 7-8 times last year. This year, zero times so far.
What Zap mentioned is the middle ground solution. Opt in JA would save us and crew scheduling a lot of headache. There are many times I WANT to be JAd. There are also many times that I canít do it.
A call to crew scheduling, your chief pilot, or the CPOC will get you out of a true emergency (child care issue being the most common), but I picked up a JA 2 day from someone going on her honeymoon a couple of years ago. The scheduler thanked me profusely, but I was like how did it come to this?
I would much rather see an electronic JA bid at double time or an opt in JA system where a commuter can avoid going to a hotel and make a little money.
Due to our overmanning and crew scheduling depending a whole lot more on reroutes to cover flying this year, true JA flying is pretty rare. That doesnít mean it doesnít need to be fixed next contract.

ZapBrannigan
07-09-2018, 06:43 AM
I was junior manned or last day rerouted into additional legs about 7-8 times last year. This year, zero times so far.
What Zap mentioned is the middle ground solution. Opt in JA would save us and crew scheduling a lot of headache. There are many times I WANT to be JAd. There are also many times that I canít do it.
A call to crew scheduling, your chief pilot, or the CPOC will get you out of a true emergency (child care issue being the most common), but I picked up a JA 2 day from someone going on her honeymoon a couple of years ago. The scheduler thanked me profusely, but I was like how did it come to this?
I would much rather see an electronic JA bid at double time or an opt in JA system where a commuter can avoid going to a hotel and make a little money.
Due to our overmanning and crew scheduling depending a whole lot more on reroutes to cover flying this year, true JA flying is pretty rare. That doesnít mean it doesnít need to be fixed next contract.



Thatís perfectly stated and I hope you shared that anecdote with your SWAPA reps. Our reps are good people but many of them have never worked for another airline and may not have a true appreciation for how other carriers manage JA.

Not saying we need to do what they do - I think there can be a SWA solution for a SWA problem. A solution that uses the free market system to create demand for those short notice assignments. One that doesnít force people to fly when they want or need to be home. That would be TRUE industry leading flexibility.


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Kapitanleutnant
07-09-2018, 12:52 PM
I'll take issue with each airline having this type of thing: I used to be at the other Dallas based airline for 20 years before going overseas and during that 20 years... not one-single-time did I get told/asked/requested to do extra flying at the end of my trip... not one time guys.

It may be different now over there but not while I was there...

Kap

Burton78
07-09-2018, 01:38 PM
Kap,

Agree 1000%! And what worse is that we have pilots who not only defend the practice but who would throw a hissy if SWAPA were to fight it because they like the money.

I say there should be room for pilots who want quality of life AND pilots who want the extra money.

Allow me to make that choice in CWA. If I choose QOL I want it to automatically put any extensions or JAs into giveaway AND send a text alert to pilots who may be interested in premium or double time.

I also believe that it should pay 1.5 or 2 times the credit OR the rigs whichever is higher. No more of this JA that only pays 6.5. And if Iím JAíd into Christmas Day it had darned well pay 1.5 X holiday pay - so triple time.

Not everything is about money and I shouldnít have to call in fatigued to decline an extension Iím not interested in.




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I agree with both you and e6b that there should be an ďopt inĒ feature for JAís much like the pref fly in the reserve system (but actually used). I canít count how many times that Iíve been crossing my fingers for a JA at the end of my trip while scouring open time, only to come up empty. Thereís no reason people should be forced to fly more than their pairing when so many people would gladly accept it. At the very least, potential JAís need to be made a lot more visible for potential takers.

FWIW; I know everyoneís experience varies but Iíve only been JAíd once in 4 years, so from my personal experience, itís not all that common. Maybe Iím just lucky/unlucky.


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Ineedabrew
07-09-2018, 04:47 PM
Looks like the hiring frenzy has come to a end....

e6bpilot
07-09-2018, 06:34 PM
Looks like the hiring frenzy has come to a end....



Tell that to the 88 pilots classing up this month.

French3Holer
07-09-2018, 06:34 PM
Looks like the hiring frenzy has come to a end....

Why don't you just Go to every thread and post this? Oh, wait...

Bluesideup1
07-09-2018, 10:28 PM
I'll take issue with each airline having this type of thing: I used to be at the other Dallas based airline for 20 years before going overseas and during that 20 years... not one-single-time did I get told/asked/requested to do extra flying at the end of my trip... not one time guys.

It may be different now over there but not while I was there...

Kap

That must have been a long time ago because many of those on the 737, airbus and S80 are getting rerouted and Junior Manned this summer.

Now if you are a 777 Captain or wide body long haul driver you probably can't even get Junior manned or rerouted.

Bluesideup1
07-09-2018, 10:48 PM
Not true. SOME airlines permit junior manning. Not all. And it is not used as indiscriminately as it is here. Other airlines properly utilize their reserves to mitigate that need.

I’ve worked for 9 Airlines and have never been JA’d (or extended) as much as I have been here. This summer has so far been blissfully free from JA though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Very true if you can find me one airline that is going to cancel a flight instead of JA someone I will buy you the Brooklyn bridge.

Every airline will cover the flight and JM, JA, reroute until it is covered. Because to my knowledge there isn't an CBA out there that doesn't have some sort of language for the company to do just that.

The anecdotal evidence of your past airlines not JA you as much SW it just that anecdotal. The fact that every airline for the past 4 years has been pretty much running balls to the wall has caused more JA and reroutes through the entire industry vs when just about every airline was overstaffed or furloughing.

The FO at SW were hit especially hard 2 summers ago when on just about every time I started a 3 day they would end up rerouting my FO. This was because of poor planning and the fact we couldn't keep up with getting new hires through training fast enough.

Funny thing is I have been at multiple airlines where that exact same thing happened. Sometimes they would over staff and there wouldn't be a scrap of open time available other times they got behind the 8 ball and I would pack extra underwear knowing my 4 day was going to be at least a 5 day.

I do know that we suck at reserve staffing compared to the other airlines and this also needs to be changed and it looks like it is starting to trend that way even against the wishes of the Premium mafia that can't survive without 170 trips each month.

I have been at SW 15 years and have been rerouted many times due to wx, cancellations, sick calls or I was the cheapest option but I have only had 5 actual JA's where CS was JAing me into days off. Out of those 5 two of ended with fatigue calls with one known cancellation.

I am all for adding more reserves as I rarely fly more than 100 trips a month and would love to bid reserve and sit at home not being used.

NoDeskJob
07-11-2018, 04:58 AM
At DL, if my last day is BOS-ATL (for example)....once I put the wheels in the well for ATL, they can not add on flying.

Grumpyaviator
07-11-2018, 05:25 AM
At DL, if my last day is BOS-ATL (for example)....once I put the wheels in the well for ATL, they can not add on flying..

Thatís how it should be.

Even the regional I was at had that rule. At that place I think it had more to do with our interpretation of 117 though.

Fuseplug
07-11-2018, 05:30 AM
At DL, if my last day is BOS-ATL (for example)....once I put the wheels in the well for ATL, they can not add on flying.

Likewise. I normally become very fatigued on that last leg of a trip.

fadec
07-14-2018, 07:51 AM
At United we have senior manning. As a junior guy moving across two fleets in three domiciles over three years, half on reserve, I have never once been asked to perform additional flying past trip termination. It just doesn't happen. It could, in theory, but there's always a senior guy happy to answer the phone for a quick buck. Last-minute mandatory reassignments are such a serious QOL hit they should be as rare as their only fair causes, hurricanes, floods, etc. And even then they should be compensated well. They are here, in case it should matter.

Lewbronski
07-16-2018, 10:10 PM
At United we have senior manning. As a junior guy moving across two fleets in three domiciles over three years, half on reserve, I have never once been asked to perform additional flying past trip termination. It just doesn't happen. It could, in theory, but there's always a senior guy happy to answer the phone for a quick buck. Last-minute mandatory reassignments are such a serious QOL hit they should be as rare as their only fair causes, hurricanes, floods, etc. And even then they should be compensated well. They are here, in case it should matter.

Ya, but you guys have PBS and we here at SWA have unrivaled flexibility! Yes, your pay rates may be a little higher, but my W2 always beats my buddiesí W2ís at UA, DL, AA. Plus, you guys work 19 days per month. At SWA. I give away my entire line and fly premium 9 days per month. Last year, I netted $575K. Donít even get my started on how much better our health care and retirement is than all the other airlines. And our long-call reserve? Industry-leading.

Kapitanleutnant
07-17-2018, 03:42 AM
Pretty much sums it up.....

RJSAviator76
07-17-2018, 03:59 AM
Ya, but you guys have PBS and we here at SWA have unrivaled flexibility! Yes, your pay rates may be a little higher, but my W2 always beats my buddiesí W2ís at UA, DL, AA. Plus, you guys work 19 days per month. At SWA. I give away my entire line and fly premium 9 days per month. Last year, I netted $575K. Donít even get my started on how much better our health care and retirement is than all the other airlines. And our long-call reserve? Industry-leading.

You forgot to include Omni. Even they have higher rates than Southwest. :rolleyes:

But hey, happier times ahead for you:

For both UA and DL go here: https://www.airlineapps.com
For AA, go here: https://aa.pilotcredentials.com

Sorry, too lazy to look for Omni. You'll have to look them up yourself.

Skyward
07-17-2018, 04:41 AM
Ya, but you guys have PBS and we here at SWA have unrivaled flexibility! Yes, your pay rates may be a little higher, but my W2 always beats my buddiesí W2ís at UA, DL, AA. Plus, you guys work 19 days per month. At SWA. I give away my entire line and fly premium 9 days per month. Last year, I netted $575K. Donít even get my started on how much better our health care and retirement is than all the other airlines. And our long-call reserve? Industry-leading.

Well, I havenít flown yet this month because I gave it all away. Picking some stuff up now. Except for the retirement and reserve part, I fail to see the sarcasm.

My last trip was a 3day - commutable on both ends with 5 legs total for the whole trip. Paid nice, too.

Iíll never net $575 though. At least not on second year pay.... lol

Lewbronski
07-17-2018, 10:35 AM
You forgot to include Omni. Even they have higher rates than Southwest. :rolleyes:

But hey, happier times ahead for you:

For both UA and DL go here: https://www.airlineapps.com
For AA, go here: https://aa.pilotcredentials.com

Sorry, too lazy to look for Omni. You'll have to look them up yourself.

Príty much why it will always be SAIEW at SWA: ďIf ya donít like the way SWA does it, leave!Ē

Same reason we didnít have autothrottles or VNAV until just a few years ago despite the fact that the advantages of autothrottles and VNAV were repeatedly pointed out by many for years: an inability to comprehend that there might be better ways of doing things than the little Texas airline does Ďem.

Same reason we pinned the gear until just a couple of years ago.

Same reason one pilot had to stay with the aircraft until just a couple months ago.

RJSAviator76
07-17-2018, 01:05 PM
Príty much why it will always be SAIEW at SWA: ďIf ya donít like the way SWA does it, leave!Ē



Same reason we didnít have autothrottles or VNAV until just a few years ago despite the fact that the advantages of autothrottles and VNAV were repeatedly pointed out by many for years: an inability to comprehend that there might be better ways of doing things than the little Texas airline does Ďem.



Same reason we pinned the gear until just a couple of years ago.



Same reason one pilot had to stay with the aircraft until just a couple months ago.



Spare me the melodramatic BS. You are comparing apples to camels. Stick to the contract, compensation and working conditions.

Want 5-day trips with 30 hour layovers and be gone for 15-17 days? Please see the links in my previous post or convince me Iíd like them.

Want to fly right up to your reserve guarantee, being on the hook for 18-20 days a month but with LC reserve? Please see the links in my previous post or convince me Iíd like this.

Want PBS where a week of vacation equals 10-14 days off? Please see the links in my previous post or convince me itís better.

Want the union to mandate with whom you can and cannot trade if youíre a line holder or reserve? If so, please see the links in my previous post and show me how itís better.

Want to fly a heavy and go have 36 hour layovers in Rome? Wrong airline... see the links in my previous post.

By throwing your sarcastic hissy fit, youíre actually detracting from what needs to be done and showing yourself to be a complete ignoramus malcontent. Please do tell us... what do you know about how AA is in comparison to us? Have you seen their 737 domestic lines? How about 737 international lines? You like what they credit? Or do you think itís a travesty? How about ways to make extra money because a decent chunk of this pilot group likes the ability to make extra? How about Delta? Tell us about their reserve, days on the hook, guarantee, chances to go over guarantee, ability to drop, long/short call? Go into specifics...

Also, what makes DL, UA, AA narrowbody flying more appealing than SW?

You mention retirement... when will a legacy newhire be able to reach IRS 415C limits? For example, I hit it as a year 1-2 FO with PS topping it off, having gotten excess paid to me in cash. Conversely, my legacy buds couldnít get it quite yet despite trying like hell due to being ďunable to credit moreĒ despite their higher hourly.

I want higher pay rates, but I donít want to sit for 30 hours in BHM or RDU. I also donít want 5 day trips paying min pay... I stay away from 4-days like a plague, but thatís me. You may love them, and thatís where we differ. It doesnít make any one of us right or wrong.

Living in domicile, I actually want the ability to trade my trips with those commuting to sit reserve... canít do that at a legacy.

What may work for you may not work for somebody else. 16% of us, myself included, voted no the last time around. That means 86% voted yes. How do you convince them theyíre wrong? Throwing BS like SAIEW, throwing sarcastic posts and insults only gets you tuned out and labeled a malcontent or worse and your message gets ignored/lost despite possibly having something meaningful to actually contribute and show us where we are indeed lagging. See my LTD post as an example...

Warhawg01
07-17-2018, 03:24 PM
Well said, RJS. I have grown tired of the SAIEW crowd, especially the ones that use their no vote as a big I-told-you-so bat to whack anyone and everyone with a complaint about the contract. I would like to see the mythical unicorn contract that whittles the 16% club into a group of less than 5-10% (no matter what, some will always vote no). It doesnít exist ó it canít exist.

BIGRIG
07-17-2018, 06:10 PM
Am I the only one that doesnít know what SAIEW means?

Smooth at FL450
07-17-2018, 07:50 PM
Am I the only one that doesnít know what SAIEW means?


Same As It Ever Was...I think

ipdanno
07-18-2018, 01:40 AM
Yes, "Same as it ever was", as from The Talking Heads.

Fuseplug
07-18-2018, 05:18 AM
http://33.media.tumblr.com/c1e6d39f6636967909049b53f2a91a42/tumblr_mv6klhQhdq1r94e9jo1_250.gif

Sluggo_63
07-18-2018, 06:01 AM
Also, what makes DL, UA, AA narrowbody flying more appealing than SW?Maybe just the fact that you have an option to not fly narrowbodies forever. You can fly narrowbodies at DL, UA, AA until it gets old, the kids are grown, etc., then switch to widebodies and do that for a bit, then switch back if you want to be close to the grand kids. Options are always good...

Smooth at FL450
07-18-2018, 06:21 AM
Maybe just the fact that you have an option to not fly narrowbodies forever. You can fly narrowbodies at DL, UA, AA until it gets old, the kids are grown, etc., then switch to widebodies and do that for a bit, then switch back if you want to be close to the grand kids. Options are always good...


Options are good...but job stability is better.



I start a 3 day trip this afternoon, 2 legs today, 2 tomorrow, 1 on day 3. Pays 22 tfp (19 credit hours) Gentleman's schedule...while paying very well.

RJSAviator76
07-18-2018, 06:41 AM
Maybe just the fact that you have an option to not fly narrowbodies forever. You can fly narrowbodies at DL, UA, AA until it gets old, the kids are grown, etc., then switch to widebodies and do that for a bit, then switch back if you want to be close to the grand kids. Options are always good...



If thats really important to you, youíre at the wrong airline, and those links in my previous post should be useful.

Lewbronski
07-18-2018, 07:08 AM
Spare me the melodramatic BS...By throwing your sarcastic hissy fit...

Project much?

Kettle calling the pot black?

Little less caffeine?

Sluggo_63
07-18-2018, 07:27 AM
Options are good...but job stability is better.



I start a 3 day trip this afternoon, 2 legs today, 2 tomorrow, 1 on day 3. Pays 22 tfp (19 credit hours) Gentleman's schedule...while paying very well.That's great. I think my airline is pretty stable, and I'm flying domestic type flying (multiple legs in a night). After this, I'll go back to the long haul flying, that suits me better. Trust me, there are definitely downsides to what we do here, but I like the longer blocks of trips, with longer blocks of days off and less block time. Go fly a 5-6 day trip, have 7 days off. I averaged 20 hours of block in 2016. To each their own. I'm happy here, and I'm glad you're happy there.

If thats really important to you, youíre at the wrong airline, and those links in my previous post should be useful.I'm happy where I am, thanks. But I do appreciate the "helpful" links. You "if you don't like it, leave" guys crack me up. We have our fair share here, too...

SlipKid
07-18-2018, 08:56 AM
Well said, RJS. I have grown tired of the SAIEW crowd, especially the ones that use their no vote as a big I-told-you-so bat to whack anyone and everyone with a complaint about the contract.

Well......

Us "SAIEW" crowd are tired of the morons giving away the store at every opportunity, even after they've been warned about the consequences of their YES! vote.

It's doubly frustrating when they subsequently complain about whatever it was they voted YES! for.


I would like to see the mythical unicorn contract that whittles the 16% club into a group of less than 5-10% (no matter what, some will always vote no). It doesnít exist ó it canít exist.

It certainly can't exist when 80%+ of us consistently vote YES! on industry lagging contracts and SLs.

In the last 24 years, with the exception of the '02 extension and the last contract, every single contractual item we've ratified has been a concession, or at best, a net zero gain.

But hey, we can (sometimes) work more to make up the difference.

SAIEW..... ;)

Lewbronski
07-18-2018, 10:37 AM
Well......

Us "SAIEW" crowd are tired of the morons giving away the store at every opportunity, even after they've been warned about the consequences of their YES! vote.

It's doubly frustrating when they subsequently complain about whatever it was they voted YES! for.




It certainly can't exist when 80%+ of us consistently vote YES! on industry lagging contracts and SLs.

In the last 24 years, with the exception of the '02 extension and the last contract, every single contractual item we've ratified has been a concession, or at best, a net zero gain.

But hey, we can (sometimes) work more to make up the difference.

SAIEW..... ;)

Wait, wait...lemme see if I can channel RJS and his ilk:

If you donít like it at SWA, just leave! No one is keeping you there.

Plenty of airlines hiring. You think narrowbody flying is any better at AA, DL, or UA?

You see if you suggest SWA might benefit from adopting SOME practices from other airlines that might be doing those things better than us, youíre kind of viewed as a treasonous turncoat who probably needs a few more auditing sessions at the LEAD center in order to get clear.

The entirety of the way other airlines do things is stupid and wastes money. Just look at how much money we save with our ďLoveĒ Field version of taking care of guys who go out on medical. Those other airlines waste way too much money on extraneous stuff like that.

RJSAviator76
07-18-2018, 10:57 AM
Well......



Us "SAIEW" crowd are tired of the morons giving away the store at every opportunity, even after they've been warned about the consequences of their YES! vote.



It's doubly frustrating when they subsequently complain about whatever it was they voted YES! for.



Those ďmoronsĒ are a vast majority of this pilot group. Right or wrong, but we failed to convince them that our gripes may be worth a NO vote, hence their yes vote. Wanna change that? Run for office. Do stuff like JL does and outside the union, present a powerful case. THAT works! Calling someone a moron or spouting the SAIEW bs only makes your point moot and invalid when it shouldnít be. Educate BEFORE and keep pointing AFTER any TA. But smugness and sitting on your high and mighty horse calling the people you failed to convince morons doesnít work.






It certainly can't exist when 80%+ of us consistently vote YES! on industry lagging contracts and SLs.



In the last 24 years, with the exception of the '02 extension and the last contract, every single contractual item we've ratified has been a concession, or at best, a net zero gain.



But hey, we can (sometimes) work more to make up the difference.



SAIEW..... ;)


Agreed, but why do you think that is? Donít forget the events starting in 2001 and the state of our industry.

Kapitanleutnant
07-18-2018, 12:58 PM
Smooth at fl450...

You are RIPE for additional flying on your final day!! I'd say greater than 50% chance youll get additional flying after your one leg home. Working your tail off at SWA!! Lol

Kap

Smooth at FL450
07-18-2018, 10:08 PM
Smooth at fl450...

You are RIPE for additional flying on your final day!! I'd say greater than 50% chance youll get additional flying after your one leg home. Working your tail off at SWA!! Lol

Kap

Last leg gets in at 0010. Good thing we donít fly red eyes...

Iím ripe for extra flying IF I choose to answer my phone or if they get me the night before. But who wants 22 hours at the Ayers anyway???

SlipKid
07-19-2018, 07:22 AM
Those ďmoronsĒ are a vast majority of this pilot group.

Yup.

Right or wrong, but we failed to convince them that our gripes may be worth a NO vote, hence their yes vote.

We? You've been here for what, 2 years?

The SAIEW folks have been trying to wake up the morons for decades.

They simply don't listen, and, ironically, end up complaining about the stuff that they vote for even after they've been warned.


Wanna change that? Run for office.

BTDT. Next?

Do stuff like JL does and outside the union, present a powerful case. THAT works!

BTDT. It doesn't work. Next?

Calling someone a moron or spouting the SAIEW bs only makes your point moot and invalid when it shouldnít be.

LOL..... A moron is no longer a moron if I call them such?


Educate BEFORE and keep pointing AFTER any TA.

See above. Unfortunately, old SWApA scrubbed the forum. Otherwise, you'd be able to go back and see how the SAIEW folks tried, on EVERY issue, to educate the morons on what they were voting on BEFORE they voted YES! to shoot themselves in our collective foot.


But smugness and sitting on your high and mighty horse calling the people you failed to convince morons doesnít work.

Whatever.

After over 2 decades and several dozen contract and side letter votes, watching the morons give it all away, I am done being nice about it. ;)

If the shoe fits and such.





Agreed, but why do you think that is? Donít forget the events starting in 2001 and the state of our industry.

LOL... We got one of the 2 (noticeable) raises that I've gotten in 22 years here in 2002. We spent the next decade giving up stuff for no reason.

Next........

RJSAviator76
07-19-2018, 08:24 AM
Slip, how many have been hired here since the Great Giveaway and why do you think the store was given away?

SlipKid
07-19-2018, 08:38 AM
Slip, how many have been hired here since the Great Giveaway and why do you think the store was given away?

We've hired and acquired many in the last 24 years.

The store was continuously given away because SWApA "negotiated" for management. It was a simple matter to get the sheep to buy the SWApAganda and get them to ratify concession after concession.

dawgdriver
07-19-2018, 09:20 AM
I'm told the real battle lies between flag tie wearers and non flag tie wearers.

e6bpilot
07-19-2018, 01:31 PM
This thread has kinda jumped the shark and suffers from Prune thread bleedover.
Sadly, our union has a history that is full of collusion and individualism. When we had leadership we could trust and a young airline that was actually fighting to survive, this worked out well for everyone...at least thatís what they tell you until you hear the real sordid history of stock options and the dark side of the Herb relationship.
This is a different time. A different airline. A different pilot group.
This is a great place to work, but it isnít Delta or AA, and it never will be. Widebody flying doesnít exist here, but neither does outsourcing. We donít get paid parking, but our vacation drop and sick bank is industry leading at this point. No long call reserve, but you become a non person when you go out on disability.
Donít get me wrong, I am not an apologist, those things, especially the disability thing NEEDS FIXING. I just think a few, especially the DBMIVN crowd, is quick to point out the things we donít have and always looks at the empty half of the glass without really proposing a way to make these things happen.
To a certain extent, we need those guys to keep us all honest. In my opinion, though, each pilots actions speak louder than their words.
I hold the companyís feet to the fire with the contract. Every. Day.
I do what my union asks when they ask it. Every. Day.
I support the needs of the pilot group even when they donít necessarily intersect my needs.
I support my fellow pilots, crewmembers, ground personnel, and customers in the day to day grind, even when it means stepping out of my comfort zone and doing a little bit extra with no expectation of a reward.
I drag my butt downstairs for a beer and wings with my crew even when I just want to go to bed after a long day.

I am not here to toot my own horn, I am just saying that instead of b1tching and doing nothing about it, some of you could grab an oar and start rowing. Come contract time, I am ready to fight again just like last time and I hope you are too, but always concentrating on the negative is going to make you and the people around you miserable. Itís the reason I donít go on the Prune anymore. It is one giant wank fest of anger over there without anything constructive to add.

SlipKid
07-19-2018, 04:37 PM
This thread has kinda jumped the shark and suffers from Prune thread bleedover.
Sadly, our union has a history that is full of collusion and individualism. When we had leadership we could trust and a young airline that was actually fighting to survive, this worked out well for everyone...at least that’s what they tell you until you hear the real sordid history of stock options and the dark side of the Herb relationship.
This is a different time. A different airline. A different pilot group.
This is a great place to work, but it isn’t Delta or AA, and it never will be. Widebody flying doesn’t exist here, but neither does outsourcing. We don’t get paid parking, but our vacation drop and sick bank is industry leading at this point. No long call reserve, but you become a non person when you go out on disability.
Don’t get me wrong, I am not an apologist, those things, especially the disability thing NEEDS FIXING. I just think a few, especially the DBMIVN crowd, is quick to point out the things we don’t have and always looks at the empty half of the glass without really proposing a way to make these things happen.
To a certain extent, we need those guys to keep us all honest. In my opinion, though, each pilots actions speak louder than their words.
I hold the company’s feet to the fire with the contract. Every. Day.
I do what my union asks when they ask it. Every. Day.
I support the needs of the pilot group even when they don’t necessarily intersect my needs.
I support my fellow pilots, crewmembers, ground personnel, and customers in the day to day grind, even when it means stepping out of my comfort zone and doing a little bit extra with no expectation of a reward.
I drag my butt downstairs for a beer and wings with my crew even when I just want to go to bed after a long day.

I am not here to toot my own horn, I am just saying that instead of b1tching and doing nothing about it, some of you could grab an oar and start rowing. Come contract time, I am ready to fight again just like last time and I hope you are too, but always concentrating on the negative is going to make you and the people around you miserable. It’s the reason I don’t go on the Prune anymore. It is one giant wank fest of anger over there without anything constructive to add.


Golf clap.....



I am no JL, but I have spent a lot of time and effort trying to educate this pilot group over the years.


My arms are a bit tired from trying to row against the old union and 84% of the pilot group rowing the opposite direction, toward the waterfall. :D

FL370esq
07-19-2018, 07:11 PM
At DL, if my last day is BOS-ATL (for example)....once I put the wheels in the well for ATL, they can not add on flying.

But they will try....and have many times. Those who don't know the contract will fly that add-on/tag-on SAV turn. Of course, those who know the contract will also fly that SAV turn and then call the company out and get an additional 10 1/2 hours of assignment pay for that turn. 😁

Lewbronski
07-20-2018, 01:34 AM
I am not here to toot my own horn, I am just saying that instead of b1tching and doing nothing about it, some of you could grab an oar and start rowing. Come contract time, I am ready to fight again just like last time and I hope you are too..

A lot of self-congratulation and a lot of assumption in this post. You assume that those who posts on a thread here or on the Prune with criticism, constructive or otherwise, are nothing more than ďkeyboard warriors.Ē Might not be an accurate assumption.

Historically, the labor movement that gave rise to unions and the standard of living you enjoy right now as a SWA pilot was fueled by angry and discontented individuals. The aptitude for SWA pilots to turn a blind eye to the power we could wield as a labor union via a naive ethos of Pollyannaism seems to know no bounds and places us in a perennially lagging position of feebly deluding ourselves into extolling our ever-dwindling selling points such as ďflexibilityĒ, ďbig W-2Ē (if you work your ďtailĒ off), and ďoverlap.Ē We have no idea what a union is. Sad. SAIEW.

RJSAviator76
07-20-2018, 06:06 AM
A lot of self-congratulation and a lot of assumption in this post. You assume that those who posts on a thread here or on the Prune with criticism, constructive or otherwise, are nothing more than “keyboard warriors.” Might not be an accurate assumption.

Sorry bud, you didn't post any criticism, let alone anything constructive. You posted a bunch of sarcastic hot air and whining nonsense. SlipKid at least adds historical perspective... and though I agree with him with on many things, I disagree that we are the same group that would simply follow the ways of the old SWApA, and namely because of the numbers hired here and the numbers forecast to be hired.

Our current contract was a pretty good gain even though it fell short of the Platform and agreed it grossly fell short of LTD (one of my chief reasons for voting no), but that wasn't the mandate. It was to fix the reserve, get a B-plan, get a pay raise. In that, we largely succeeded. Whether we could have gotten more or not is debatable. I believe we could have, but it's water under the bridge now. Time to let it go and look forward to 2020, talk about it in the cockpit, nag the guy you're flying with to take NC polls. Hell, I asked the guy I flew with to bring his iPad downstairs so we'd take the poll over beers and that's what we did. The key is engaging others, not throw sarcastic BS at them.


Historically, the labor movement that gave rise to unions and the standard of living you enjoy right now as a SWA pilot was fueled by angry and discontented individuals. The aptitude for SWA pilots to turn a blind eye to the power we could wield as a labor union via a naive ethos of Pollyannaism seems to know no bounds and places us in a perennially lagging position of feebly deluding ourselves into extolling our ever-dwindling selling points such as “flexibility”, “big W-2” (if you work your “tail” off), and “overlap.” We have no idea what a union is. Sad. SAIEW.

So educate us. Convince us. Tell us how it's done. Get specific. That's what I've been asking all you SAIEW chuckleheads... you don't have to convince me as I'm already on your side, but peanut gallery comments like DBMIVN or SAIEW are doing exactly squat if they aren't at least accompanied by explanations, valid comparisons and/or realistic ideas and healthy discussions.

SlipKid points out that the old SWApA erased all the stuff from forums back in the day so new guys can't access the info. That's why it makes it all the more important to educate the up and coming pilots as we are a good chunk of the voting bloc, and unlike at other airlines, our probationary pilots get to vote... yet another reason why SAIEW and DBMIVN comments only hurt the cause if you don't start going into specifics, details, comparisons, and suggestions. JL gets it. I wish the rest of you did.

e6bpilot
07-20-2018, 06:51 AM
A lot of self-congratulation and a lot of assumption in this post. You assume that those who posts on a thread here or on the Prune with criticism, constructive or otherwise, are nothing more than ďkeyboard warriors.Ē Might not be an accurate assumption.



Historically, the labor movement that gave rise to unions and the standard of living you enjoy right now as a SWA pilot was fueled by angry and discontented individuals. The aptitude for SWA pilots to turn a blind eye to the power we could wield as a labor union via a naive ethos of Pollyannaism seems to know no bounds and places us in a perennially lagging position of feebly deluding ourselves into extolling our ever-dwindling selling points such as ďflexibilityĒ, ďbig W-2Ē (if you work your ďtailĒ off), and ďoverlap.Ē We have no idea what a union is. Sad. SAIEW.



Thatís the Prune way. Demure, insult, *****, but donít actually have a suggestion that is going to fix anything in the real world. The power that we wield as a labor union still has to fit in the sad framework of the RLA and what happens in real life negotiations. Do you think the president and NC we have now are leaving anything on the table? Do you think they have ulterior motives or are collaborators? Serious questions, because that is what old SWAPA was all about. Take a look at who we are negotiating against in the next round. An old SWAPA President. You canít make that stuff up.
My point was, this ainít old SWAPA and this ainít the same pilot group. We have a better educated and more engaged group than ever before, largely due to the Internet and the crazy amount of hiring that has happened here in the last three years. Now it is up to us to fight that battle and climb that hill. It isnít going to be done by *****ing and whining though, and a little bit of trust in both our current union and or current pilot group is going to be necessary. A little positivity goes a long way towards engaging those on the fringes and not alienating them. There is being a good union pilot and there is being a bitter, angry a hole. The current wanking over flag ties is a perfect example. I personally will never wear that thing due to the bad taste it left in negotiations, but it doesnít stop me from engaging others who wear it and maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt. You will be surprised what some of them have to say.
Go over to the Prune and read. Other than JL, there are maybe 5 guys with a grip on reality there. The rest are keyboard warriors and full of hot air with zero constructive thoughts.
History is important, and I hope we never repeat the ways of the traitors and collaborators of our old union. Going forward, though, this young and energized group is in a good position to accomplish great things. See you on the front lines.

SlipKid
07-20-2018, 08:03 AM
That’s the Prune way. Demure, insult, *****, but don’t actually have a suggestion that is going to fix anything in the real world.

Such irony. You've perfectly described the SWApA forum, only the folks doing that are typically those defending the concession du jour. There is a lot of chaff over on the PPrune, but a lot of good has come from it over the years.

The entire reason that the SW section of the PPrune exists is because of SWApA. During the 2000 BOD elections, JK and a few of the other old SWApA guys didn't like the free exchange of info offered by the then, relatively new electronic "union hall", so they shut down the SWApA forum for the duration. One of our Capts. got the PPrune forum up and running, and it's been the bane to the BOD's existence ever since. It's tough to control the message when you can't control the medium.

That said, I haven't been on the pPrune in a while. I need to check it out. I'm guessing that Beaner is still complaining about flag ties? :D


The power that we wield as a labor union still has to fit in the sad framework of the RLA and what happens in real life negotiations. Do you think the president and NC we have now are leaving anything on the table? Do you think they have ulterior motives or are collaborators?

For the first time since I've been here, I have full confidence in most of our union guys.

Serious questions, because that is what old SWAPA was all about. Take a look at who we are negotiating against in the next round. An old SWAPA President. You can’t make that stuff up.

SAIEW ;). Do some research on Sparky. He was our former SWApA "negotiator" and was on the company side of the table for the '06 "negotiations". He, BC and CK collaborated and brought us the wonderful '06 TA1 that, after a sales job that would make a used car salesman blush, was narrowly voted down. For some reason, a few months later, we ratified an equally bad TA2 in '09. You can't make that stuff up.

My point was, this ain’t old SWAPA and this ain’t the same pilot group. We have a better educated and more engaged group than ever before, largely due to the Internet and the crazy amount of hiring that has happened here in the last three years.

I sincerely hope you're right, but I am not gonna hold my breath. 38% of our group voted for the last TA1.


Now it is up to us to fight that battle and climb that hill. It isn’t going to be done by *****ing and whining though, and a little bit of trust in both our current union and or current pilot group is going to be necessary.

Agreed.


A little positivity goes a long way towards engaging those on the fringes and not alienating them. There is being a good union pilot and there is being a bitter, angry a hole. The current wanking over flag ties is a perfect example. I personally will never wear that thing due to the bad taste it left in negotiations, but it doesn’t stop me from engaging others who wear it and maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt. You will be surprised what some of them have to say.

Yeah, the flag tie thing is stupid, but I get it. Pilots need shiny things to keep their attention, and the flag tie is quite shiny.


Go over to the Prune and read. Other than JL, there are maybe 5 guys with a grip on reality there. The rest are keyboard warriors and full of hot air with zero constructive thoughts.

As much can be said for the SWApA forum, or even here. Lots of cringeworthy posts on both.

History is important, and I hope we never repeat the ways of the traitors and collaborators of our old union. Going forward, though, this young and energized group is in a good position to accomplish great things. See you on the front lines.

If you're so inclined, go back and do a search on PPRune about any of the many issues we've voted on and given away over the years. Lots of good insight when you sift through the troll posts.

e6bpilot
07-20-2018, 09:48 AM
Thanks for your answer and your insight. I will go over there and check it out. For the record, I think Beaner is one of the few that contribute logical, realistic information over there.
Donít even get me started on the swapa forum. Fortunately, the free exchange of information cannot be controlled, despite the new forum software/attempted purge of the last administration. With the FB forum, twitter, and other forums, that ship has sailed. The Toms and other ďsit down and let me tell you why we accept lessĒ old men who are happy to pull up the ladder and spout their nonsense and revisionist history after supporting TA1 and the previous administration are regularly shouted down. I truly believe they are company collaborators who will end up in company positions post SWAPA.
I think we are on the cusp of great things. That has nothing to do with bigger airplanes, new destinations, or any of the other carrots that get dangled by the company rumor mill. I am talking about what we can accomplish with this pilot group and this union leadership in 2020. I think the struggle will be long and difficult, but the potential outcome will be worth it (I hope).

SlipKid
07-20-2018, 10:13 AM
Thanks for your answer and your insight. I will go over there and check it out. For the record, I think Beaner is one of the few that contribute logical, realistic information over there.
Don’t even get me started on the swapa forum. Fortunately, the free exchange of information cannot be controlled, despite the new forum software/attempted purge of the last administration. With the FB forum, twitter, and other forums, that ship has sailed. The Toms and other “sit down and let me tell you why we accept less” old men who are happy to pull up the ladder and spout their nonsense and revisionist history after supporting TA1 and the previous administration are regularly shouted down. I truly believe they are company collaborators who will end up in company positions post SWAPA.
I think we are on the cusp of great things. That has nothing to do with bigger airplanes, new destinations, or any of the other carrots that get dangled by the company rumor mill. I am talking about what we can accomplish with this pilot group and this union leadership in 2020. I think the struggle will be long and difficult, but the potential outcome will be worth it (I hope).

Agreed.

Hopefully, next time around in 2026, the masses will actually READ past the pay rates and almost full retro before casting their votes.


Oh, and those of you dismissing PPRuNe, our current BOD is a veritable "who's who" of PPRuNe "Errant Knights" (the name the Koolies gave what you new guys refer to as the SAIEW crowd).

Beaner is definitely one of the good ones over there.... :D

holygrail
07-20-2018, 09:10 PM
Changing things a bit.....

Haven’t posted on this website in years and new to this thread.

I’m a corporate guy who spent a total of 14 years at 2 different airlines prior to accepting my corporate job. It’s been a good deal for me but I’m thinking of jumping back into the airlines gig as pay/ benefits/ qol seems to be far better than when I left. I’m thinking SWA would be my first choice as it seems like a great place to work where everyone gets along and is treated with some respect. I actually interviewed there a few years back and got a 737 type at Higher Power Aviation. Unfortunately, I was not hired that time. So I’m curious if my observations of SWA are actually true.

Are most employees happy there?
What is the junior base?
How long would it take for a new hire to bid/hold Denver?
Would it be possible for a 49 year old to ever upgrade?
Could I reasonably bid for partial weekends or some holidays off?

Could someone please explain the pay “sliders” on APC airline profiles.

How much per year could I reasonably expect to make each year (on average) until I top out as an FO?

Any info helps!

Thanks in advance.

Peacock
07-21-2018, 08:25 AM
Changing things a bit.....

Havenít posted on this website in years and new to this thread.

Iím a corporate guy who spent a total of 14 years at 2 different airlines prior to accepting my corporate job. Itís been a good deal for me but Iím thinking of jumping back into the airlines gig as pay/ benefits/ qol seems to be far better than when I left. Iím thinking SWA would be my first choice as it seems like a great place to work where everyone gets along and is treated with some respect. I actually interviewed there a few years back and got a 737 type at Higher Power Aviation. Unfortunately, I was not hired that time. So Iím curious if my observations of SWA are actually true.

Are most employees happy there?
What is the junior base?
How long would it take for a new hire to bid/hold Denver?
Would it be possible for a 49 year old to ever upgrade?
Could I reasonably bid for partial weekends or some holidays off?

Could someone please explain the pay ďslidersĒ on APC airline profiles.

How much per year could I reasonably expect to make each year (on average) until I top out as an FO?

Any info helps!

Thanks in advance.

I think most people are happy. This website is mostly for *****ing and malcontents.

The junior base is Oakland but any base but Atlanta is available within 3-4 months out of training.

3-4 months for Denver. Would have been 4 for me.

A conservative upgrade time would be 10-12 years. It will likely be less if growth continues.

Iím near the end of year one and I can get partial weekends off with blank line or most off with reserve since I live in base.

The sliders calculate monthly pay based on hours credited and pay rate. Doesnít work exactly for SWA.

The yearly pay totals are highly dependent on whether you live in base and whether you choose to only fly you line or spend time trading for better trips or pick up extra on your days off.

RJSAviator76
07-21-2018, 08:30 AM
Upgrade, by default, is going to drop substantially as the hiring goes on. We didn't hire anyone in 2009-2010... a pretty small number in 2011-15, and started going gangbusters in 2016 on.

10-12 years upgrade time will only be if that's your preference, and for many it is... that is barring something like another 9/11...

Peacock
07-21-2018, 08:55 AM
Upgrade, by default, is going to drop substantially as the hiring goes on. We didn't hire anyone in 2009-2010... a pretty small number in 2011-15, and started going gangbusters in 2016 on.

10-12 years upgrade time will only be if that's your preference, and for many it is... that is barring something like another 9/11...

I meant that as a conservative/near worst case timeline. Meaning zero or negative growth

at6d
07-21-2018, 10:06 AM
Former corporate and previous 121 guy here.

Halfway through my third year. Solid lineholder bidding nearly 50% in domicile. I donít fly extra and drive over an hour to workóI routinely have weekends off, this month with 17 days off (three on/four off). I project about $155K before per diem for the year, not including any extras.

Iím also a Regular Plan user, so no health care premiums.

I have never been abused by scheduling (a few operational clusterf&*%s here and there), and for the most part enjoy not being on call, not servicing the lav, not working the phones, not stocking the galley, not working contracts, etc.

Good gig with good people. Except for the F-15 guys. Yíall are a little wound up! LOL just kidding a little.

Skyward
07-21-2018, 05:26 PM
Changing things a bit.....

Haven’t posted on this website in years and new to this thread.

I’m a corporate guy who spent a total of 14 years at 2 different airlines prior to accepting my corporate job. It’s been a good deal for me but I’m thinking of jumping back into the airlines gig as pay/ benefits/ qol seems to be far better than when I left. I’m thinking SWA would be my first choice as it seems like a great place to work where everyone gets along and is treated with some respect. I actually interviewed there a few years back and got a 737 type at Higher Power Aviation. Unfortunately, I was not hired that time. So I’m curious if my observations of SWA are actually true.

Are most employees happy there?
What is the junior base?
How long would it take for a new hire to bid/hold Denver?
Would it be possible for a 49 year old to ever upgrade?
Could I reasonably bid for partial weekends or some holidays off?

Could someone please explain the pay “sliders” on APC airline profiles.

How much per year could I reasonably expect to make each year (on average) until I top out as an FO?

Any info helps!

Thanks in advance.

I’m still in my first year and have 18 days off next month with half weekends. I’ve traded out of almost all of my reserve since I’ve been here and have traded to have a lot of weekends (or even entire weeks) off. (I’m in a junior base, so YMMV in DEN). The flexibility is one of the things that really sets SW apart, imo. You can make (work) about as much or as little as you want. It’s an awesome job. I am prior 121 and corporate, and I wouldn’t leave SWA to go to any other flying gig.

It’s still a job, but I have a lot of fun when I’m here. Yeah, there’s room for improvement, but I’m happy!

hoover
07-21-2018, 08:42 PM
I believe the union says the average is 108tfp/month. Take that multiply by 12 then by tfp rate.
That is what I would use to calculate pay. It's very close to what I do and I only pick up a few turns here and there and expect to get rerouted/abused in the summer to make up for leaner winter months .

To each their own but I try to budiet my life on 2nd yr FO pay. I see way too many guys that have to fly a lot of extra to make it work. Yet again I'm not in their shoes and judging. Just trying to avoid that myself.
Too easy to use thsi job as an ATM machine.

fcrx
07-22-2018, 08:31 AM
Currently the junior spot on the Denver FO list (not including the IOE consolidation) is a late November hire. So to fact check the current situation, the time to hold Denver FO is 8 months and counting.

flyguy81
07-22-2018, 09:08 PM
Currently the junior spot on the Denver FO list (not including the IOE consolidation) is a late November hire. So to fact check the current situation, the time to hold Denver FO is 8 months and counting.

Sept vacancy bid is +16 for DEN FO so who knows what'll happen in a couple weeks.

Zard
07-22-2018, 10:23 PM
How does the wizard come up with the numbers for the vacancy?

Iím an April hire trying to figure out when I might hold DEN.

Iím figuring December - januaryish. Anything before then is gravy.

Til then, looks like I get to debate the merits of HOU vs MDW or maybe LAS eventually.

At least Iíll be outta Oakland!

Proximity
07-23-2018, 01:20 AM
How does the wizard come up with the numbers for the vacancy?

The company emails out the final numbers for the bid about a week before it closes.

The hire date for the lowest seniority pilot awarded a base can swing wildly when the company tweaks the vacancy numbers.

e6bpilot
07-23-2018, 06:11 AM
SWAPA publishes a forecast on their website right after the company numbers come out. It is usually very accurate. Search under vacancy prediction and it should come up for previous and current month. Denver is a ďdestination baseĒ and I doubt it will ever go as junior as the transient bases out west. It is still junior for captains since it is a newer base, though.

Twinjetav8r
07-23-2018, 11:34 AM
The current wanking over flag ties is a perfect example. I personally will never wear that thing due to the bad taste it left in negotiations, but it doesnít stop me from engaging others who wear it and maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt. You will be surprised what some of them have to say.

Shoot! Iím a probie and wear the flag tie because I like the looks of it over the other sad, striped one. What did I miss?




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Caveman
07-23-2018, 03:15 PM
Shoot! Iím a probie and wear the flag tie because I like the looks of it over the other sad, striped one. What did I miss?




Sent from my iPad using TapatalkRight or wrong it's come to represent a "Yessie" pickup premium during pickets I don't support SWAPA and I go my own way Company Man kinda guy.

I've flown with some great guys wearing them with a SWAPA pin.

Wear what you want.

Support your union, by thorough self education during the SEP cycle, and asking questions of the left seat on your trips, and doing your own thinking on the issues ahead.

holygrail
07-23-2018, 05:14 PM
108 (average tfp) x 12 x hourly rate (published on this site) = yearly pay?

First year then = 108 x 12x 79 or $102,384
2nd year then = 108 x 12 x 115 or $149,040?
... and so on.

Does this seem right?


What does family health care cost per month?

CA1900
07-23-2018, 05:48 PM
108 (average tfp) x 12 x hourly rate (published on this site) = yearly pay?

Roughly, yes. I budget on 100TFP personally.

First year then = 108 x 12x 79 or $102,384

No, the rates on APC are "converted" to hours. First year pay is currently $69.34 per TFP, so 108x12x69.34 = $89,865. Second year, at $100.26, would be $129,937 at 108/mo.

Current FO TFP rates for the first few years are...

Year 1 $69.34
Year 2 $100.26
Year 3 $111.63
Year 4 $123.23
Year 5 $134.99
Year 6 $140.87

Each September 1st, rates go up a couple bucks for all service years.

What does family health care cost per month?

Depends on the plan. The Regular Plan, which the company will actively try to talk you out of, has no premium at all for the whole family. 20% coinsurance for all visits up to an annual out-of-pocket maximum of $2500, then everything's covered. It doesn't cover preventative care, but the other plan (which does cover it) is $388/mo for the family, and you'll still have a 20% coinsurance, up to an $8600 out-of-pocket maximum. That buys a whole lot of preventative care. :o

SLCFlyer
07-23-2018, 06:07 PM
108 (average tfp) x 12 x hourly rate (published on this site) = yearly pay?

First year then = 108 x 12x 79 or $102,384
2nd year then = 108 x 12 x 115 or $149,040?
... and so on.

Does this seem right?


What does family health care cost per month?

CA1900 beat me to it. Including the negotiated raises and using the average of 108 -

Year 1 - 89.9
Year 2 - 133.8
Year 3 - 153.5
Year 4 - 174.5
Year 5 - 191.2
Year 6 - 199.5

I budget based on the line average of 92 but have actually flown 118 average. I averaged a little over 100 for my first year when I commuted. I live in base now and pick up trips which accounts for the increase over my second year.

Skyward
07-23-2018, 06:10 PM
...The current wanking over flag ties is a perfect example. I personally will never wear that thing due to the bad taste it left in negotiations, but it doesnít stop me from engaging others who wear it and maybe giving them the benefit of the doubt. You will be surprised what some of them have to say.
...

I am a union supporter. I even have a battle star on my ALPA pin from a previous life. However, the contention over the flag tie here at SWA really irks me. I support SWAPA to the fullest, but I do not appreciate them making a political/negotiating statement over the US flag. It just feels very Colin Kaepernickish to me. I wear the flag tie because Iím proud to display the symbol of my country, and I think it looks better. It does not and I will never let it become a pawn in how I feel about anything other than my patriatism. It really surprises me that the pilots of SWA would allow the USA flag tie to become an item of protest against a viewpoint. I almost find it disrespectful to the red, white and blue personally. So, I hope no one thinks that I donít support SWAPA when I wear it... well honestly, I guess I donít care if anyone thinks that. The truth is that I do support the efforts of SWAPA and the pilot group to the fullest though, but I will continue to wear the flag tie because I like the US flag.

BZC17
07-23-2018, 06:45 PM
I am a union supporter. I even have a battle star on my ALPA pin from a previous life. However, the contention over the flag tie here at SWA really irks me. I support SWAPA to the fullest, but I do not appreciate them making a political/negotiating statement over the US flag. It just feels very Colin Kaepernickish to me. I wear the flag tie because I’m proud to display the symbol of my country, and I think it looks better. It does not and I will never let it become a pawn in how I feel about anything other than my patriatism. It really surprises me that the pilots of SWA would allow the USA flag tie to become an item of protest against a viewpoint. I almost find it disrespectful to the red, white and blue personally. So, I hope no one thinks that I don’t support SWAPA when I wear it... well honestly, I guess I don’t care if anyone thinks that. The truth is that I do support the efforts of SWAPA and the pilot group to the fullest though, but I will continue to wear the flag tie because I like the US flag.

Slow down newbie.. swapa doesn’t target pilots that wear flag ties. Swapa just asked during a protracted negotiation cycle for all pilots to wear black ties in a show of solidarity. The flag tie became a way for company apologists and kool aid drinkers to rebel against the union and Jon Weaks. I don’t care what you wear but I don’t wear the flag because of the bad blood it reminds me of. Personal opinion only.....

Skyward
07-23-2018, 07:18 PM
Slow down newbie.. swapa doesn’t target pilots that wear flag ties. Swapa just asked during a protracted negotiation cycle for all pilots to wear black ties in a show of solidarity. The flag tie became a way for company apologists and kool aid drinkers to rebel against the union and Jon Weaks. I don’t care what you wear but I don’t wear the flag because of the bad blood it reminds me of. Personal opinion only.....

I respect that, and I don’t think SWAPA is targeting anyone. I just wish something else would have been chosen to show solidarity. Why ask someone not to wear a US flag? I have no bad feelings against SWAPA or anyone else for it because I understand the idea, but why the flag...

I’m thankful to all you guys that held the line before I got here and for the job that SWAPA and Jon have done. I wear the flag simply because I like the flag, and it means something different to me :)

e6bpilot
07-23-2018, 07:57 PM
I respect that, and I donít think SWAPA is targeting anyone. I just wish something else would have been chosen to show solidarity. Why ask someone not to wear a US flag? I have no bad feelings against SWAPA or anyone else for it because I understand the idea, but why the flag...

Iím thankful to all you guys that held the line before I got here and for the job that SWAPA and Jon have done. I wear the flag simply because I like the flag, and it means something different to me :)



Itís whatever to me. Wear it if you want. Like I said, I try not to make any pre judgments.
I donít wear it for three reasons.
One, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth from negotiations and the few who basically said they were going to go their own way. They mostly used the patriot line too or that customers really loved it. What that told me is that they would not do something as simple as changing their tie when the union asked them to.
Two, I wore the flag for 20 years. I put it away and donít feel the need to keep wearing it. I still get choked up during a particularly good rendition of the star spangled banner. I have seen close friends in caskets draped with the flag. Itís a strong symbol in my life, but I donít need to wear it on my chest to prove it to myself or anyone else.
Third, I fly a good amount of international stuff. You certainly donít see any Mexican or Costa Rican pilots wearing their countryís flag and I assume they are all patriots as well. I am not going to wear a bright American flag into a foreign country. It is a bit over the top and puts a target on your back.
Again, thatís just, like, my opinion man. I certainly donít fault a new hire for wearing it. I have friends that choose to put it on. I just canít bring myself to do it. As mentioned above, the best thing you can do is stay engaged and be ready for fight come next contract.

BZC17
07-23-2018, 08:06 PM
I respect that, and I donít think SWAPA is targeting anyone. I just wish something else would have been chosen to show solidarity. Why ask someone not to wear a US flag? I have no bad feelings against SWAPA or anyone else for it because I understand the idea, but why the flag...

Iím thankful to all you guys that held the line before I got here and for the job that SWAPA and Jon have done. I wear the flag simply because I like the flag, and it means something different to me :)

Yeah, it wasnít a flag tie thing though. Swa koolies made it a flag tie thing by comparing the black tie to isis support. Before the uniform change you had somthing like 12 options for a tie. (I might be exaggerating) The union just wanted everyone to take a step back and show solidarity. Swapa was calling swaís bluff that they didnít speak for the pilot force. It totally worked, and Swa changed the reg to not allow black ties as an option for the new uniform.

oldboyroy
07-24-2018, 07:52 AM
I was the original post on this question...I have hit the one year point at SWA, line holder for 7 months. Next month 20 days OFF with 89 credits, this month 18 days off with 95 credits. So more time off than Delta or UA or AA.

The next question I have is my legacy friends say, ďbut you are flying 75-80 hrs a month. We at legacy x donít fly more than 400-500/yr. You at SWA are doing 200-300 more hours and getting paid nothing for that extra flying.Ē

Should I look at this as flight hour pay vs days at work pay? If itís days at work, we at WN/SWA get paid more. If itís hourly, they get paid more, but are we working more for less?

I am in my early 40s, our trips can be tiring sometimes, though I donít think I work that hard. But 15-20yrs from now, is the tempo going to be a bear or is legacy flying more of a gentlemanís schedule that is better fit as we get older. Your thoughts please, and be kind and patient as we new hires learn this industry. Thanks.

ZapBrannigan
07-24-2018, 08:06 AM
I am in my early 40s, our trips can be tiring sometimes, though I donít think I work that hard. But 15-20yrs from now, is the tempo going to be a bear or is legacy flying more of a gentlemanís schedule that is better fit as we get older.


I agree with you - sometimes the trips are exhausting. Usually it isnít so much because of the number of legs or the pace of the operation - rather itís the continuous early morning AMs, or the late night PMs. Both probably requiring periods of wakefulness during the WOCL.

When I get home it takes a night or two of normal sleep to recover from those schedules. Iím looking forward to them getting rid of the shoulder flights once the fleet is back to its pre classic retirement size. Iím hoping the trips will be a little less tiring.

As they are, I agree that what I can tolerate in my mid 40s might be a challenge in my mid 60s.

I also donít like the victory lap that sometimes follows a transcon. I donít mind flying BWI to SAN, but I sure donít want to do a Vegas turn after that. I want to get out of the airplane and try and ward off the deep vein thrombosis. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

hoover
07-24-2018, 08:44 AM
For me it's about time away from base/home. I want to have the most time off for the most pay possible. Flight hrs are not my measuring stick.
I agree with above that the flights in early morning or late pm really affect my rest and recovery at home. Hopefully as I get older this company will have better options and schedules.

PolishFlyerDude
07-24-2018, 09:00 AM
I don't know what it is about our operation: the early AM's or the late PM's, the number of legs, the number of longer duty days and short overnights. Whatever it is, I find myself regularly exhausted after a three-day trip. I've been here more than a decade and it was relatively easy (except for the early AM's...that was never easy) for the first few years. Now, it seems much more difficult. Maybe it's because I'm in my 40's now and a little older.

However, I'm in very good shape, work out hard every day, and bring my own food. I'm not at all fat and out of shape so I don't think that's the problem.

To me, our days of flying have become markedly more difficult ever since 117 and the incorporation of the -800 into our fleet. 117 added n extra hour of block time to our days which gave the schedulers the ability to make our duty days even longer. The -800, with its much longer boarding/deboarding process increased our turn times and, correspondingly, our duty days. Longer duty days equals shorter overnights.

Plus, the AM's have gotten ever earlier and the PM's ever later. I look for trips with shorter duty days or fewer legs and longer overnights. They're not all that common. I'll take less pay for those kinds of trips over a little more pay for a more intense trip.

It usually takes me at least a day, sometimes more, to recover from a three day. So, when we're at work, in my opinion, we are getting the beat down. Yes, we deserve to be compensated for that. This job does a lot of damage to our health: circadian rhythm disruption, hard to get healthy food, sitting, radiation, noise, fumes. My opinion: we don't get paid nearly enough.

flyguy81
07-24-2018, 11:08 AM
How does the wizard come up with the numbers for the vacancy?

Iím an April hire trying to figure out when I might hold DEN.

Iím figuring December - januaryish. Anything before then is gravy.

Til then, looks like I get to debate the merits of HOU vs MDW or maybe LAS eventually.

At least Iíll be outta Oakland!

I did OAK for my hard line month, then 3 months in Vegas before I was driving to work in DEN.

SlipKid
07-24-2018, 11:49 AM
I don't know what it is about our operation: the early AM's or the late PM's, the number of legs, the number of longer duty days and short overnights. Whatever it is, I find myself regularly exhausted after a three-day trip. I've been here more than a decade and it was relatively easy (except for the early AM's...that was never easy) for the first few years. Now, it seems much more difficult. Maybe it's because I'm in my 40's now and a little older.

However, I'm in very good shape, work out hard every day, and bring my own food. I'm not at all fat and out of shape so I don't think that's the problem.

To me, our days of flying have become markedly more difficult ever since 117 and the incorporation of the -800 into our fleet. 117 added n extra hour of block time to our days which gave the schedulers the ability to make our duty days even longer. The -800, with its much longer boarding/deboarding process increased our turn times and, correspondingly, our duty days. Longer duty days equals shorter overnights.

Plus, the AM's have gotten ever earlier and the PM's ever later. I look for trips with shorter duty days or fewer legs and longer overnights. They're not all that common. I'll take less pay for those kinds of trips over a little more pay for a more intense trip.

It usually takes me at least a day, sometimes more, to recover from a three day. So, when we're at work, in my opinion, we are getting the beat down. Yes, we deserve to be compensated for that. This job does a lot of damage to our health: circadian rhythm disruption, hard to get healthy food, sitting, radiation, noise, fumes. My opinion: we don't get paid nearly enough.

100% agreed on all of this.

The number of 10-ish hour layovers have
increased exponentially since 117 too. Prior to the change, I'd occasionally have an 11 hour layover, like once or twice per year. Since 117, I get several 10-11 hour layover per month, often going from PM to AM.

I am sure that the company is glad we gleefully ratified SL6 and SL17.

Both were, effectively, pay cuts when you consider the longer duty days.

e6bpilot
07-24-2018, 11:58 AM
I seek out PM to AM trips. 19 hours at the El Paso Wyndham (Delta stays there, so I was told by our CAB when I complained) is not my idea of a good time. Being a commuter, the short overnights usually mean an extra night at home for me. Win.

SlipKid
07-24-2018, 12:44 PM
I seek out PM to AM trips. 19 hours at the El Paso Wyndham (Delta stays there, so I was told by our CAB when I complained) is not my idea of a good time. Being a commuter, the short overnights usually mean an extra night at home for me. Win.

I get that some commuters like PM turned AM, but regardless of your commuter status, 10 hours behind the door in between 10-14 hour days is exhausting after a while. We had very few of them prior to 117.

I stopped doing 24-25+ tfp 3 days because these days, they almost always have at least one very short PM to AM layover and still get done late-ish (for AMs) on the last day. :eek:

We had PM turned AMs before 117, but the layovers were typically a few hours longer because the duty days were usually shorter and you got in earlier.

hoover
07-26-2018, 12:28 PM
The 4 day I just finished was a pm.
day 1 supposed to be 2 legs and 15tr layover. Ferry added to the end and became a 10:50 min layover.
Day 2 4 legs and a 10:54 layover
Day 3 4 legs 1st leg is 4 hr flight then 3 1 hr legs with a 2 hr delay mixed in became a 11:28 hr layover.
Day 4 4 legs and only 1 hr delay. Home
All layovers do not include transportation.
Day 1 got to hotel at 0230 local. 0330 body made for a really long day considering I had family stuff to do at home and woke up at a normal hr.
Day 4 was a 10:30 am van.

These trips are what make me tired.

SlipKid
07-26-2018, 12:31 PM
The 4 day I just finished was a pm.
day 1 supposed to be 2 legs and 15tr layover. Ferry added to the end and became a 10:50 min layover.
Day 2 4 legs and a 10:54 layover
Day 3 4 legs 1st leg is 4 hr flight then 3 1 hr legs with a 2 hr delay mixed in became a 11:28 hr layover.
Day 4 4 legs and only 1 hr delay. Home
All layovers do not include transportation.
Day 1 got to hotel at 0230 local. 0330 body made for a really long day considering I had family stuff to do at home and woke up at a normal hr.
Day 4 was a 10:30 am van.

These trips are what make me tired.

Good thing we voted YES! on SL17........:eek:

Smooth at FL450
07-26-2018, 01:33 PM
The 4 day I just finished was a pm.
day 1 supposed to be 2 legs and 15tr layover. Ferry added to the end and became a 10:50 min layover.
Day 2 4 legs and a 10:54 layover
Day 3 4 legs 1st leg is 4 hr flight then 3 1 hr legs with a 2 hr delay mixed in became a 11:28 hr layover.
Day 4 4 legs and only 1 hr delay. Home
All layovers do not include transportation.
Day 1 got to hotel at 0230 local. 0330 body made for a really long day considering I had family stuff to do at home and woke up at a normal hr.
Day 4 was a 10:30 am van.

These trips are what make me tired.

Ughh. This trip became fatiguing for me after day 3.

Grease5667
07-26-2018, 03:46 PM
I just called out fatigued after getting jerked around for 4 days. My nice long layovers were shortened to 3 under 12. I was absolutely fatigued. Never used to be like this. Yes, summers are usually worse. If you let 25 year old schedulers push you into misery, itís your own fault. Our lives at work and at home have changed significantly after 117. The extra coin isnít enough to compensate for it.

hoover
07-26-2018, 08:41 PM
Ughh. This trip became fatiguing for me after day 3.

The cpt and I we're in agreement that any more delays/ legs and we were fatigued. I got my rest and felt ok to finish each day but it was all work and sleep. No down time.
A JA would have been automatic fatigue for me

Proximity
07-27-2018, 12:24 PM
Currently the junior spot on the Denver FO list (not including the IOE consolidation) is a late November hire. So to fact check the current situation, the time to hold Denver FO is 8 months and counting.

For September the jr spot as a Feb 18, and "counting".

TriStar_drvr
07-27-2018, 07:49 PM
I don't know what it is about our operation: the early AM's or the late PM's, the number of legs, the number of longer duty days and short overnights. Whatever it is, I find myself regularly exhausted after a three-day trip. I've been here more than a decade and it was relatively easy (except for the early AM's...that was never easy) for the first few years. Now, it seems much more difficult. Maybe it's because I'm in my 40's now and a little older.

However, I'm in very good shape, work out hard every day, and bring my own food. I'm not at all fat and out of shape so I don't think that's the problem.

To me, our days of flying have become markedly more difficult ever since 117 and the incorporation of the -800 into our fleet. 117 added n extra hour of block time to our days which gave the schedulers the ability to make our duty days even longer. The -800, with its much longer boarding/deboarding process increased our turn times and, correspondingly, our duty days. Longer duty days equals shorter overnights.

Plus, the AM's have gotten ever earlier and the PM's ever later. I look for trips with shorter duty days or fewer legs and longer overnights. They're not all that common. I'll take less pay for those kinds of trips over a little more pay for a more intense trip.

It usually takes me at least a day, sometimes more, to recover from a three day. So, when we're at work, in my opinion, we are getting the beat down. Yes, we deserve to be compensated for that. This job does a lot of damage to our health: circadian rhythm disruption, hard to get healthy food, sitting, radiation, noise, fumes. My opinion: we don't get paid nearly enough.

I just read this and couldnít agree more. Iím older (58) and am exhausted after nearly every trip. Summer really takes it out of me. I try to work as few days as possible, although this is tough as Iím very junior on the Captain list. For this reason, I hope to retire in two years. Hopefully youíre young when youíre hired here. I wasnít, and the Southwest schedule is wearing me out.

saab2000
07-28-2018, 04:45 AM
I just read this and couldn’t agree more. I’m older (58) and am exhausted after nearly every trip. Summer really takes it out of me. I try to work as few days as possible, although this is tough as I’m very junior on the Captain list. For this reason, I hope to retire in two years. Hopefully you’re young when you’re hired here. I wasn’t, and the Southwest schedule is wearing me out.

I agree. I don't know what it is but a 3-day here is as tiring, if not more so, than a 4-day at my old carrier. I have my personal ideas, but no real evidence. It's a combination of things, in part because I no longer live in domicile, adding a number of hours per week to my 'work' week even though I don't really commute. I drive to my domicile but it's far enough away that I often come in the night before and grab a hotel. It adds half a day to my work week. But there are other things.

Yesterday turned into a nearly 14 hour day again after a 5 AM report time. This happens pretty often it seems.

WHACKMASTER
07-30-2018, 03:32 AM
I agree. I don't know what it is but a 3-day here is as tiring, if not more so, than a 4-day at my old carrier. I have my personal ideas, but no real evidence. It's a combination of things, in part because I no longer live in domicile, adding a number of hours per week to my 'work' week even though I don't really commute. I drive to my domicile but it's far enough away that I often come in the night before and grab a hotel. It adds half a day to my work week. But there are other things.

Yesterday turned into a nearly 14 hour day again after a 5 AM report time. This happens pretty often it seems.

Not to mention the fact that we lay the most chemtrails out of any U.S. airline. No doubt that adds to the fatigue factor.

RJSAviator76
07-30-2018, 03:50 AM
Not to mention the fact that we lay the most chemtrails out of any U.S. airline. No doubt that adds to the fatigue factor.

That ain't no lie... for the doubters:

https://preview.ibb.co/gkXuYo/IMG_3820.jpg

TransWorld
07-30-2018, 06:00 AM
It is fatiguing laying down all those chem trails, especially when you need to fly in those gaps to cover all the open areas not covered the last few hours.

I really wish they would introduce long lasting chem trails that would last a week or more.

barabek
07-30-2018, 06:52 AM
It is fatiguing laying down all those chem trails, especially when you need to fly in those gaps to cover all the open areas not covered the last few hours.

I really wish they would introduce long lasting chem trails that would last a week or more.

No worries there, they are working on it. I went to a secret chemtrail meeting in DAL last week. Apperently, we're getting stronger stuff to spray because more and more people are figuring out the truth about the flat Earth. The good thing is the aluminum tariffs make the tin foil hat production less affordable.

fcrx
07-30-2018, 01:03 PM
For September the jr spot as a Feb 18, and "counting".

Excellent, letís keep the information as factual and up to date as possible so we arenít bull****ting the prospects!

btodd77
07-30-2018, 01:39 PM
Whatís the junior man on the FO side in MCO??

Peacock
07-30-2018, 02:59 PM
Whatís the junior man on the FO side in MCO??

Mid April date of hire



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