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View Full Version : Flight control check- ATI


midnightshuttle
02-08-2018, 06:56 AM
The following is not intended to be malicious but a serious issue. As of late I flew with a capt that could not complete a flight control check due to his size. When I noticed a lack of elevator travel on the status page he had to push back off the pedals. I made a comment but wasn’t effective. Im unable to find any written guidance. Is it a union or standards issue? Medical? Im not a fan of this place but don’t want to flame a fellow flyer.


motorclutch
02-08-2018, 07:04 AM
Safety report! If the fat bastard can’t get his belly out of the way then you have a real safety issue. I’m sure V1 will try to hide this issue the same way he did with V2 almost flaming out a jet in SMF.

txflyer9
02-08-2018, 01:39 PM
The following is not intended to be malicious but a serious issue. As of late I flew with a capt that could not complete a flight control check due to his size. When I noticed a lack of elevator travel on the status page he had to push back off the pedals. I made a comment but wasn’t effective. Im unable to find any written guidance. Is it a union or standards issue? Medical? Im not a fan of this place but don’t want to flame a fellow flyer.
It's absolutely meant to be malicious! If you're man enough to make an accusation do it to the proper channels. If you're to ignorant to know the proper channels then we have another issue.


baldwin
02-08-2018, 01:41 PM
It's absolutely meant to be malicious! If you're man enough to make an accusation do it to the proper channels. If you're to ignorant to know the proper channels then we have another issue.

yep. pretty much.

Wings1856
02-08-2018, 04:03 PM
The following is not intended to be malicious but a serious issue. As of late I flew with a capt that could not complete a flight control check due to his size. When I noticed a lack of elevator travel on the status page he had to push back off the pedals. I made a comment but wasn’t effective. Im unable to find any written guidance. Is it a union or standards issue? Medical? Im not a fan of this place but don’t want to flame a fellow flyer.

You are totally unprofessional. Please leave.

CargoPirate
02-08-2018, 07:42 PM
That is a serious safety issue.

If the guy is to big to allow full and free movement of the flight controls then he needs to be removed from flight duty until the situation is corrected.

Send a report to the union and give them a chance to handle the situation.

TiredSoul
02-08-2018, 11:57 PM
Depends what you’re flying.
The flight control check is there to make sure the flight controls are clear from any ( internal) obstructions.
I haven’t flown a Part 23 or 25 airplane yet that requires full elevator travel during normal or abnormal operations.
Ask him to slide his seat back for the flight control check.
To me this would be more of a medical issue.

hackerbyday
02-09-2018, 07:57 AM
Could this be a safety issue? Maybe, but not during a flight control check on the ground. If a persons size interferes with aircreaft control then yes and I would hope that it would have been identified during simulator training.
That being said if this was a TRUE safety issue for you then why did you continue the flight with this individual? Kind of like saying braking action is NIL then continuing to taxi. I feel that you are only interested in stirring the pot and embarrassing the Captain. I would be careful of such actions as this could be construed as workplace harassment.

motorclutch
02-09-2018, 08:13 AM
File a safety report......takes care of the workplace harassment argument.

qiutong
02-09-2018, 09:24 AM
Hey, wait a minute...I don’t fly for ATI?? Lol

Screwed
02-09-2018, 09:54 AM
Could this be a safety issue? Maybe, but not during a flight control check on the ground. If a persons size interferes with aircreaft control then yes and I would hope that it would have been identified during simulator training.
That being said if this was a TRUE safety issue for you then why did you continue the flight with this individual? Kind of like saying braking action is NIL then continuing to taxi. I feel that you are only interested in stirring the pot and embarrassing the Captain. I would be careful of such actions as this could be construed as workplace harassment.

How is it workplace harassment to inform the union of a probable/ even possible safety issue.

What level of flight control restriction is okay? Who gets to make the decision? I can't find anything in FAA Documentation that says it is okay to have flight control restricted movement. Could you point that out for me?

It is not harassment of any kind to point out to the union or the company for that matter a possible safety of flight issue. It is in fact HIS JOB to alert the proper authorities of any possible safety issues.

Only in bizarro PC world could this possible be seen harassment.

hackerbyday
02-09-2018, 11:11 AM
It is not harassment of any kind to point out to the union or the company for that matter a possible safety of flight issue. It is in fact HIS JOB to alert the proper authorities of any possible safety issues.

Only in bizarro PC world could this possible be seen harassment.

But this person didn’t, they came to a forum where, like us, has anonymity to make public a situation that may be very sensitive to the Captain. A person I’m sure is identifiable now by many just by this description. The place to take this to is the Union/Company preferably in that order.

hackerbyday
02-09-2018, 12:11 PM
What level of flight control restriction is okay? Who gets to make the decision? I can't find anything in FAA Documentation that says it is okay to have flight control restricted movement. Could you point that out for me?

How aggressively did the FO attempt to make the control check on the ground? Just touch his stomach lightly and stop? Says he made a comment, if truly concerned about the control check ask to have the Capt suck it in or move the seat back. We’ve all flown with individuals that we have had to ask this of, and most of them know this and move before hand. None of us are solid rock and would give if aggressive movement was needed. Bottom line don’t fly if you feel unsafe.

It’s funny though how people start out by saying its not meant to be malicious but then continue to shame someone on a public forum.
The first line should say find a better way.

FlyBoat
02-09-2018, 02:20 PM
Depends what you’re flying.
The flight control check is there to make sure the flight controls are clear from any ( internal) obstructions.
I haven’t flown a Part 23 or 25 airplane yet that requires full elevator travel during normal or abnormal operations.
Ask him to slide his seat back for the flight control check.
To me this would be more of a medical issue.

Straight off the FCOM. Suggest you re-read...

Flight controls .................................................. ........Checked C, F/O

Make slow and deliberate inputs, one direction at a time.

Move the control wheel and the control column to full travel in both directions and verify: • freedom of movement • that the controls return to center • correct flight control movement on the EICAS display

No Land 3
02-09-2018, 03:14 PM
This is what happens when you hire snow flakes

RandomPerson
02-09-2018, 04:48 PM
How would it work out if this individual had to evac from the window on the 767?

No Land 3
02-09-2018, 05:15 PM
How would it work out if this individual had to evac from the window on the 767?

That would be his problem, no one else’s.

freighthound
02-09-2018, 08:03 PM
How would it work out if this individual had to evac from the window on the 767?

It would probably be like Winnie the Pooh stuck in Rabbits doorway after eating too much honey! :D

B757
02-09-2018, 08:30 PM
..Safety issue or not, I would not fly any aircraft where full and unrestricted flight control movements were not available..I can think of several abnormals / emergencies where full elevator up travel might be needed..Having flown the boeing I know it is a quality machine, but....

Fly safe,
B757

Kougarok
02-10-2018, 12:02 AM
How would it work out if this individual had to evac from the window on the 767?

It’s been done.

TiredSoul
02-10-2018, 02:11 AM
Straight off the FCOM. Suggest you re-read...

Flight controls .................................................. ........Checked C, F/O

Make slow and deliberate inputs, one direction at a time.

Move the control wheel and the control column to full travel in both directions and verify: • freedom of movement • that the controls return to center • correct flight control movement on the EICAS display

You’re twisting my argument.
I know what it says so you can ask him to slide his seat back.
I know of no Part 23 or 25 aircraft that requires full elevator control IN FLIGHT during normal or abnormal procedures.
Speed x deflection = desired effect
Now.....as I said...I’d be concerned about medical reasons.
If this guy is so seriously obese it’s not healthy.
And we both know AME’s rubber stamping Medicals.
If this guy keels over in flight and he’s such a fat bastard then you’ll have a problem with the flight controls.
Especially with these guys that click off their shoulder belts right after rotation.

https://hobbydb-production.s3.amazonaws.com/processed_uploads/subject_photo/subject_photo/image/11961/1458163578-25941-1631/Screen_20Shot_202016-03-16_20at_203.25.33_20PM.png

No Land 3
02-10-2018, 06:35 AM
Why would you say this on an open forum? To be malicious, to publicly shame the individual is exactly why some one would make this post rather than going to pro standards and keeping the matter private.
Are you on probation still?

JackStraw
02-10-2018, 07:03 AM
Tackling the important issues at ATI

tomgoodman
02-10-2018, 07:23 AM
https://hobbydb-production.s3.amazonaws.com/processed_uploads/subject_photo/subject_photo/image/11961/1458163578-25941-1631/Screen_20Shot_202016-03-16_20at_203.25.33_20PM.png

I think we found Elvis! :p

TiredSoul
02-10-2018, 09:01 AM
Why would you say this on an open forum? To be malicious, to publicly shame the individual is exactly why some one would make this post rather than going to pro standards and keeping the matter private.
Are you on probation still?

Well now he didn’t mention names now did he.
And if he is a fat bastard he needs to be called out on it.
He posted here to ask for opinions which he got in droves.

zerozero
02-10-2018, 09:20 AM
Depends what you’re flying.
The flight control check is there to make sure the flight controls are clear from any ( internal) obstructions.
I haven’t flown a Part 23 or 25 airplane yet that requires full elevator travel during normal or abnormal operations.
Ask him to slide his seat back for the flight control check.
To me this would be more of a medical issue.

Huh?

Well, I've never needed to use any of the fire extinguishers either! Guess we don't need those either.

TiredSoul
02-10-2018, 09:38 AM
Huh?

Well, I've never needed to use any of the fire extinguishers either! Guess we don't need those either.

You know that’s a BS counter argument.
How much deflection do you use to rotate? To recover from unusual attitudes? High altitude upset? Recover from anything the airplane is certified for?
Read my previous posts, I’m not denying it’s a problem.
Just a medical one in my opinion.
There is some FAA guidance on BMI from like 2013.
AME’s instructed to pay special attention to obese pilots in reference to sleep apnea and such.

zerozero
02-10-2018, 10:00 AM
I think the engineers at Boeing know how much control authority to design into the aircraft. After all, the rudder has a limiter. But not the elevator.

motorclutch
02-10-2018, 10:04 AM
“Belly Limiter”

TiredSoul
02-10-2018, 10:45 AM
“Belly Limiter”

What if the problem was a female with a ginormous rack?
Flight safety? Standards?

Kougarok
02-10-2018, 11:35 AM
https://hobbydb-production.s3.amazonaws.com/processed_uploads/subject_photo/subject_photo/image/11961/1458163578-25941-1631/Screen_20Shot_202016-03-16_20at_203.25.33_20PM.png

I think we found Elvis! :p

I think I saw the dude last night. This picture doesn’t even come close. He might even be bigger then JB.

No Land 3
02-10-2018, 12:29 PM
Well now he didn’t mention names now did he.
And if he is a fat bastard he needs to be called out on it.
He posted here to ask for opinions which he got in droves.

I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you had more than one pilot that fits the description. And why does he “need” to be called out on it, on a public forum?

motorclutch
02-10-2018, 12:40 PM
Lighten up snowflake......this is a tough occupation!

Jurassic Jet
02-10-2018, 01:04 PM
What if the problem was a female with a ginormous rack?


I'd have to evaluate the situation in person. :eek:

No Land 3
02-10-2018, 01:45 PM
Lighten up snowflake......this is a tough occupation!

I don't know whats worse, being called a snow flake or a liberal? Them fighting words padre

maxjet
02-10-2018, 02:11 PM
What if the problem was a female with a ginormous rack?
Flight safety? Standards?

I don't understand your resistance to this issue. There are people who for a variety of physical reasons are to large to fit into the pilot quarters. If you are, and you jam yourself in, it is unsafe.

Regarding the distain for the posting on a public forum, it doesn't matter how we found out about it so please get off that bandwagon. No names were used.

This is an important issue. If the aircraft were to stall and enter a dive, would the ill fitting pilot then be leaning on the controls? How do you plan to recover the aircraft? Just one of many examples I can think of.

Male or Female, if you cannot fit in the available space, then you cannot fly that particular model aircraft. If you were on my aircraft, I would be having you sit out of the way of the controls if at all possible. If that was not possible, I would delay the flight until a suitable replacement showed up.

We get paid the money to not just fly the aircraft but to fly it safely in all circumstances. Compromising safety as to not hurt someone's feelings is very wrong headed.

dynap09
02-10-2018, 03:54 PM
I'm also not following this.

I'm hearing a lot of you don't really need full travel comments.

If you feel that way then get Boeing or whoever comes up with the flight standards and checklist to change it to 80% travel or whatever "speed x deflection" formula you have.

Or get the company to sign off on not using the checklist item.

742Dash
02-10-2018, 05:12 PM
I don't know whats worse, being called a snow flake or a liberal? Them fighting words padre

People like you are why I left the Republican Party.

EDIT: And I live in a swing state.

Lockheed
02-10-2018, 06:29 PM
People like you are why I left the Republican Party.

EDIT: And I live in a swing state.

really? "people like him"
and you say that because you know him
I think not

Screwed
02-10-2018, 08:13 PM
"YOU PEOPLE"......just need to get over yourselves.

No Land 3
02-11-2018, 12:14 AM
People like you are why I left the Republican Party.

EDIT: And I live in a swing state.

https://i.imgflip.com/y8mi2.jpg

captjns
02-11-2018, 03:59 AM
Here you go folks. From Boeing’s FCOM. While this passage is from the B737 NG, I can confirm after reviewing the FCOMs of all Boeing’s Ive flown have the same language concerning the flight controls check.

Flight controls .................................................. ...........Check C

[Option - Flight Control Surface Position Indicator] Push the MFD SYS switch to display the flight control surface position indications on the lower display unit, if desired. Make slow and deliberate inputs, one direction at a time. Move the control wheel and the control column to full travel in both directions and verify: • freedom of movement • that the controls return to center

[Option - Flight Control Surface Position Indicator] • correct flight control movement if the flight control surface position indications are displayed on the lower display unit. Hold the nose wheel steering wheel during the rudder check to prevent nose wheel movement. Move the rudder pedals to full travel in both directions and verify: • freedom of movement • that the rudder pedals return to center

[Option - Flight Control Surface Position Indicator] • correct flight control movement if the flight control surface position indications are displayed on the lower display unit.

Ludicrous Speed
02-11-2018, 03:59 AM
I don't know whats worse, being called a snow flake or a liberal? Them fighting words padre

Even worse, a conservative.....and you’re the worst kind of conservative. You know, the sheeple type that takes every opportunity to use “snowflake”, yet doesn’t know the origin.

No Land 3
02-11-2018, 04:12 AM
Even worse, a conservative.....and you’re the worst kind of conservative. You know, the sheeple type that takes every opportunity to use “snowflake”, yet doesn’t know the origin.

My god, our profession is getting invaded by snowflakes and liberals!

T28driver
02-11-2018, 04:46 AM
My god, our profession is getting invaded by snowflakes and liberals!

Yeah, the next thing you know there will be unions and organized labor crying about wanting better compensation and whatever these things called “work rules” are. The doublethink some pilots engage in is stunning.

Edit: on topic, full movement of controls means full movement of controls. It’s a safety issue. You may need that last inch of travel one day (that’s what she said), and when you need it isn’t the time to find out you don’t have it.

No Land 3
02-11-2018, 05:12 AM
Yeah, the next thing you know there will be unions and organized labor crying about wanting better compensation and whatever these things called “work rules” are. The doublethink some pilots engage in is stunning.

Edit: on topic, full movement of controls means full movement of controls. It’s a safety issue. You may need that last inch of travel one day (that’s what she said), and when you need it isn’t the time to find out you don’t have it.

So if you are a unionized professional, you clearly must be a left winger? Hmm, your broad brush there isn’t working out too well. The vast majority of your co-workers are conservatives, just sayin...

T28driver
02-11-2018, 05:25 AM
So if you are a unionized professional, you clearly must be a left winger? Hmm, your broad brush there isn’t working out too well. The vast majority of your co-workers are conservatives, just sayin...

That is just a spectacular rebuttal.

sailingfun
02-11-2018, 06:03 AM
That would be his problem, no one else’s.

Unless your window jammed in the accident of there was a pool of flaming fuel on your side. Then you would need to follow him out along with any jumpseaters.

Ludicrous Speed
02-11-2018, 08:56 PM
My god, our profession is getting invaded by snowflakes and liberals!

“Your” profession?:rolleyes: Yeah right. There maybe more that leans right than left in OUR profession and whatever, moderation on either side is fine. However, the reality is that your extremist right wing whacko lunatic fringe notions are an exception in OUR profession.....thankfully.

Ludicrous Speed
02-11-2018, 09:05 PM
So if you are a unionized professional, you clearly must be a left winger? Hmm, your broad brush there isn’t working out too well. The vast majority of your co-workers are conservatives, just sayin...

If you knew anything about labor history, long and recent past, you would know that voting Republican is clearly worse for unions than voting Democrat. Are Dems hands clean? No. Nevertheless, being pro union and voting Republican is a contradiction.

Stop letting Fox, Breitbart and clickbait on Facebook spoon feed you your news and read a book or newspaper and formulate your own thoughts and opinions.

CargoPirate
02-12-2018, 12:12 AM
If you knew anything about labor history, long and recent past, you would know that voting Republican is clearly worse for unions than voting Democrat. Are Dems hands clean? No. Nevertheless, being pro union and voting Republican is a contradiction.

Stop letting Fox, Breitbart and clickbait on Facebook spoon feed you your news and read a book or newspaper and formulate your own thoughts and opinions.

You definitely have a point about Democrats and their support for the unions.

BUT

I vote for the benefit of my family. Not unions.


Last few years all the Democrats care about is taking care of illegal aliens and the so called DREAMERS.

What about the dreams of my kids and grandkids? Guess they don't matter to Democrats or Deep State Repubs either. All the politicians in D.C. can go to hell.

By the way which so called news can you depend on nowadays? Not the Washington Post or NYT. They are the propaganda arm of the democrats just like ABC,CBS, NBC and CNN etc. etc.

Repubs have Fox and a few others; but Dims have most of the rest. Journalism has been dead for a long time. It is 99% propaganda now by both sides.

No Land 3
02-12-2018, 01:15 AM
If you knew anything about labor history, long and recent past, you would know that voting Republican is clearly worse for unions than voting Democrat. Are Dems hands clean? No. Nevertheless, being pro union and voting Republican is a contradiction.

Stop letting Fox, Breitbart and clickbait on Facebook spoon feed you your news and read a book or newspaper and formulate your own thoughts and opinions.

God damn socialists everywhere

TiredSoul
02-12-2018, 01:54 AM
Here you go folks. From Boeing’s FCOM. While this passage is from the B737 NG, I can confirm after reviewing the FCOMs of all Boeing’s Ive flown have the same language concerning the flight controls check.

Flight controls .................................................. ...........Check C

[Option - Flight Control Surface Position Indicator] Push the MFD SYS switch to display the flight control surface position indications on the lower display unit, if desired. Make slow and deliberate inputs, one direction at a time. Move the control wheel and the control column to full travel in both directions and verify: • freedom of movement • that the controls return to center

[Option - Flight Control Surface Position Indicator] • correct flight control movement if the flight control surface position indications are displayed on the lower display unit. Hold the nose wheel steering wheel during the rudder check to prevent nose wheel movement. Move the rudder pedals to full travel in both directions and verify: • freedom of movement • that the rudder pedals return to center

[Option - Flight Control Surface Position Indicator] • correct flight control movement if the flight control surface position indications are displayed on the lower display unit.

Read my post, I never said you shouldn’t do a control check.
Ask the person to move their seat back.
And I have never EVER needed full yoke back deflection to get out of a botched stall recovery in any airplane.
You’re trying to avoid a secondary stall remember?
A split S requires full elevator up and so does an intentional spin entry but I havent been lucky enough to have flown any jets where this was regularly done, have you?

When you go to standards and the union or whomever you need to build a better case is all I’m saying.
Hence my recommendation to make it a Medical issue which it legitimately is.
It’s not fat people shaming if you’re putting me at risk as you could keel over dead.
Then as you state your case mention that he’s so fat you gotta ask him to move his seat for a control check.
But that shouldn’t be the main argument.

CallmeJB
02-12-2018, 04:35 AM
“Your” profession?:rolleyes: Yeah right. There maybe more that leans right than left in OUR profession and whatever, moderation on either side is fine. However, the reality is that your extremist right wing whacko lunatic fringe notions are an exception in OUR profession.....thankfully.

Ha, he said "our", you said "your".

Which one of you is being more inclusive?

Boris Badenov
02-12-2018, 07:14 AM
And I have never EVER needed full yoke back deflection to get out of a botched stall recovery in any airplane.

Your experience isn't in question, nor is it germane. The flight controls must be able to be moved in all axes to the limit in all phases of flight. This isn't a big ask. I agree, btw, that calling some particular guy out outside of proper channels is lame, but setting the way in which the question was brought up aside, it's a legitimate concern, and should be treated as such. What do you propose as a limit? Are you an engineer?

To my mind a fat person preventing the movement of the yoke or pedals is no different from any other physical barrier to the manipulation of the controls. I expect and require to have full control of the machine, per the AFM. Again, not a big ask.

niteflyr
02-12-2018, 07:59 AM
Read my post, I never said you shouldn’t do a control check.
Ask the person to move their seat back.
And I have never EVER needed full yoke back deflection to get out of a botched stall recovery in any airplane.
You’re trying to avoid a secondary stall remember?
A split S requires full elevator up and so does an intentional spin entry but I havent been lucky enough to have flown any jets where this was regularly done, have you?


It's got nothing to do with "regularly done". Ever had a full nose down runaway trim?

TiredSoul
02-12-2018, 11:51 AM
It's got nothing to do with "regularly done". Ever had a full nose down runaway trim?

Ok I’ll bite, checklist maybe? Memory items? Circuit breaker? Override switch? Does the checklist say you need full back movement of the yoke? What if Your stick buddy is 5’2 and 100lbs and they can’t bench press a wet paper bag or open a bag of pretzels without tearing a muscle?

You’ll be more likely to ever have to use full aileron ( wake upset) then full elevator. The Scarebus doesn’t even allow you to do that in flight under Normal Law.
Again, the ground flightcontrol check per FOM, FCOM, Flight Manual or any other manufacturer publication is to check the correct unimpeded operation of the flight controls including cables and pulleys, hydraulic operating system or fly by wire systems.
For a myriad of reasons:
The screwdriver left behind by MX, incorrectly rigged controls after repairs/heavy MX, controls locks installed, slush/ice, hydraulic component failure, Flight Control Computer issues yadayadayada.
Maybe your fat buddy needs to go fly Airbus.

Found an interesting little read from our Aussie friends:
https://www.casa.gov.au/licences-and-certification/aviation-medicine/obesity

Some other light reading:
https://flightphysical.com/sleep-apnea-screening-deferred https://www.faa.gov/data_research/research/med_humanfacs/oamtechreports/2010s/media/201010.pdf

CallmeJB
02-12-2018, 12:35 PM
I can't believe we've been debating this for 6+ pages but still haven't seen highlights from the TA.

TiredSoul
02-12-2018, 12:43 PM
I’m still digging into this.
So far I haven’t found anything relevant in FSIMS
http://fsims.faa.gov/PICDetail.aspx?docId=8900.1,Vol.6,Ch2,Sec9_SAS

No Land 3
02-13-2018, 12:50 AM
I can't believe we've been debating this for 6+ pages but still haven't seen highlights from the TA.

It’s easier to attack fat people than talk about anything with substance

TiredSoul
02-13-2018, 01:34 AM
It’s easier to attack fat people than talk about anything with substance

Gluttony is not a disability it’s a disease

http://www.nileinternational.net/en/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Miro-fat-worker.jpg

No Land 3
02-13-2018, 04:05 AM
Gluttony is not a disability it’s a disease

http://www.nileinternational.net/en/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Miro-fat-worker.jpg

It’s an addiction, like any other.

maxjet
02-13-2018, 04:58 AM
It’s easier to attack fat people than talk about anything with substance

It does take the subject away from bashing pilots who haven’t even looked at their TA yet and trying to convince them that they a piece of crap because they are going to even look at it.

Picking on fat people or women with gigantic breasts (as if that is bad, other than when flying a small airplane) is right up the alley with this group.

Interesting note is that ALPA has released the TA and is allowing the pilot group to decide if it is good or not. Refreshing concept.

CargoPirate
02-13-2018, 06:02 AM
Interesting note is that ALPA has released the TA and is allowing the pilot group to decide if it is good or not. Refreshing concept.

Did the Teamsters not allow a vote on your last contract?

Ludicrous Speed
02-13-2018, 07:37 AM
You definitely have a point about Democrats and their support for the unions.

BUT

I vote for the benefit of my family. Not unions.


Last few years all the Democrats care about is taking care of illegal aliens and the so called DREAMERS.

What about the dreams of my kids and grandkids? Guess they don't matter to Democrats or Deep State Repubs either. All the politicians in D.C. can go to hell.

By the way which so called news can you depend on nowadays? Not the Washington Post or NYT. They are the propaganda arm of the democrats just like ABC,CBS, NBC and CNN etc. etc.

Repubs have Fox and a few others; but Dims have most of the rest. Journalism has been dead for a long time. It is 99% propaganda now by both sides.

Your points taken as well. In my book, voting in the direction of strong unions is indeed taking care of my family.

As for DACA recipients; Most are educated and productive members of society, 900 of which serve in the military.

As for broadcast media outlets, Fox is farther to the right than any of the so-called Democrat outlets are on the left (that were as hard on Obama as they were on GWB), especially the NYT and....even MSNBC.