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View Full Version : jetBlue or Spirit


cf105
02-08-2018, 12:51 PM
If given the options, both interviews passed, would you choose to take the CJO and the April class at Spirit, or keep going with jetBlue even if the hiring process is much longer and you won't get a class until Sept?

One may vote a new contract within a month, the other one will eventually get one...


BeatNavy
02-08-2018, 01:06 PM
If given the options, both interviews passed, would you choose to take the CJO and the April class at Spirit, or keep going with jetBlue even if the hiring process is much longer and you won't get a class until Sept?

One may vote a new contract within a month, the other one will eventually get one...

Are the options mutually exclusive? Iíd go to spirit, and if you got hired by JB and wanted to make the switch, do it then.

Bluedriver
02-08-2018, 03:21 PM
You MUST take the Spirit class date. In this industry you never, ever know when the music will stop. If you turn down Spirit thinking you are going to take a Sept JB class you are one stock market crash, oil bubble or one terrorist flying an airplane into a building from being stuck at your regional.

Take the Spirit class, reevaluate two weeks before your JB class date.

Spirit will probably have faster seniority progression anyways, and a new contract.


CaptCoolHand
02-08-2018, 04:11 PM
You MUST take the Spirit class date. In this industry you never, ever know when the music will stop. If you turn down Spirit thinking you are going to take a Sept JB class you are one stock market crash, oil bubble or one terrorist flying an airplane into a building from being stuck at your regional.

Take the Spirit class, reevaluate two weeks before your JB class date.

Spirit will probably have faster seniority progression anyways, and a new contract.

This. All day. Every day.

Otterbox
02-08-2018, 04:19 PM
If given the options, both interviews passed, would you choose to take the CJO and the April class at Spirit, or keep going with jetBlue even if the hiring process is much longer and you won't get a class until Sept?

One may vote a new contract within a month, the other one will eventually get one...

Take the first class then transition companies as it suits you...

Bluedriver
02-08-2018, 05:30 PM
If given the options, both interviews passed, would you choose to take the CJO and the April class at Spirit, or keep going with jetBlue even if the hiring process is much longer and you won't get a class until Sept?

One may vote a new contract within a month, the other one will eventually get one...

And, congratulations on your Spirit class date in April! You will love Fifi.

Bozo the pilot
02-08-2018, 06:18 PM
If given the options, both interviews passed, would you choose to take the CJO and the April class at Spirit, or keep going with jetBlue even if the hiring process is much longer and you won't get a class until Sept?

One may vote a new contract within a month, the other one will eventually get one...

Spirit- Youll make more money until we get a CBA in 2020. Good luck man.

txbusdriver
02-08-2018, 06:52 PM
If given the options, both interviews passed, would you choose to take the CJO and the April class at Spirit, or keep going with jetBlue even if the hiring process is much longer and you won't get a class until Sept?

One may vote a new contract within a month, the other one will eventually get one...

Take Spirit and never look back. They have a contract and will soon vote in another one with higher pay rates, better benefits, and better work rules. Blujet management suffers from arrogant incompetence. This place doesnít know what it wants to be. After 15 years at this circus Iím disenchanted to say the least.

aldonite7667
02-08-2018, 07:47 PM
Spirit. JB is crazy right now with no end in sight.

Xtreme87
02-08-2018, 08:03 PM
JB if you like being forced to clean airplanes while non revving.

capt707
02-09-2018, 05:13 AM
Never thought I'd see the day where people would recommend Spirit over JetBlue.... but it's the sad truth!

nuball5
02-09-2018, 05:42 AM
Spirit- Youll make more money until we get a CBA in 2020. Good luck man.

The question is will he make enough money to make his/her decision worth it. Going off the scenario that JetBlue will sign a TA in 2020....

Spirit 1st year (new TA) $56/hour
Jetblue 1st year $53.50/hour.

Year 2....$106.50/hour-Spa
$95/hour-JB

Year 3. $115/hour-Spa
$111/hour-JB

If you're current job/financial situation allows you to wait until later this year to take the JetBlue job, then I would wait. Unless you live in a Spirit base. Or apply to the Big 3. Good luck in your decision.

capt707
02-09-2018, 05:53 AM
Not sure where OP lives, but if you live in or near a Spirit base it would make the decision a lot easier, especially if JB is going to jerk you around for another 6 months in the "pool", which is absolutely ridiculous.

Bluedriver
02-09-2018, 05:57 AM
The question is will he make enough money to make his/her decision worth it. Going off the scenario that JetBlue will sign a TA in 2020....

Spirit 1st year (new TA) $56/hour
Jetblue 1st year $53.50/hour.

Year 2....$106.50/hour-Spa
$95/hour-JB

Year 3. $115/hour-Spa
$111/hour-JB

If you're current job/financial situation allows you to wait until later this year to take the JetBlue job, then I would wait. Unless you live in a Spirit base. Or apply to the Big 3. Good luck in your decision.

What! So turn down Spirit and then hope the economy doesn't crash, we don't defer more aircraft deliveries, oil doesn't run to $200 or a terrorist doesn't blow a dirty bomb in Manhattan before JB calls him 6 months later?

That is just crazy bad advice.

Take Spirit, reevaluate two weeks before your JB class date.

I know I'm meany meany and don't respect others opinions but how could there be a different answer than this? Seriously?

Bluedriver
02-09-2018, 06:00 AM
Not sure where OP lives, but if you live in or near a Spirit base it would make the decision a lot easier, especially if JB is going to jerk you around for another 6 months in the "pool", which is absolutely ridiculous.

I still cannot figure out why we keep people in our pool 10x longer than other airlines. It seems it can only be to see who actually stuck around that long to see who is "happy to be here"!

pugpilot
02-09-2018, 06:01 AM
The question is will he make enough money to make his/her decision worth it. Going off the scenario that JetBlue will sign a TA in 2020....

Spirit 1st year (new TA) $56/hour
Jetblue 1st year $53.50/hour.

Year 2....$106.50/hour-Spa
$95/hour-JB

Year 3. $115/hour-Spa
$111/hour-JB

If you're current job/financial situation allows you to wait until later this year to take the JetBlue job, then I would wait. Unless you live in a Spirit base. Or apply to the Big 3. Good luck in your decision.

Of course he might get dumped into the 190 and those rates would be lower of course.

Take the Spirit Job, get the Bus type, make more guaranteed money.

nuball5
02-09-2018, 06:04 AM
What! So turn down Spirit and then hope the economy doesn't crash, we don't defer more aircraft deliveries, oil doesn't run to $200 or a terrorist doesn't blow a dirty bomb in Manhattan before JB calls him 6 months later?

That is just crazy bad advice.

Take Spirit, reevaluate two weeks before your JB class date.

I know I'm meany meany and don't respect others opinions but how could there be a different answer than this? Seriously?

You obviously just skimmed through what I wrote and focused on the Jetblue part, so maybe read it again. If this person's current job situation is adequate then yes I would wait. If World War III or some terrorist attack happens in the next 6 months, he's probably better off at his current job then at the bottom of the Spirit or anyone's seniority list anyway.

hilltopflyer
02-09-2018, 06:12 AM
You obviously just skimmed through what I wrote and focused on the Jetblue part, so maybe read it again. If this person's current job situation is adequate then yes I would wait. If World War III or some terrorist attack happens in the next 6 months, he's probably better off at his current job then at the bottom of the Spirit or anyone's seniority list anyway.
No matter what if he/she was choosing between the two I'd take the first job and evaluate once he finally got the call for class at jetblue. Never know if the second offer will come to fruition or not. If you would be happy at spirit compared to current job if the 'fit hit the shan' if definitely take the spirit job.

nuball5
02-09-2018, 06:32 AM
No matter what if he/she was choosing between the two I'd take the first job and evaluate once he finally got the call for class at jetblue. Never know if the second offer will come to fruition or not. If you would be happy at spirit compared to current job if the 'fit hit the shan' if definitely take the spirit job.

You're right the second offer might never materialize. I just think switching companies after 6 months would be asking a lot of someone. To endure the abysmal training pay at both Spirit and Jetblue for a total of 12+ weeks would be hard for most people. Probably better off going to a flowthrough regional with a signing bonus then hopping from Spirit to Jetblue after 6 months.

hilltopflyer
02-09-2018, 06:35 AM
You're right the second offer might never materialize. I just think switching companies after 6 months would be asking a lot of someone. To endure the abysmal training pay at both Spirit and Jetblue for a total of 12+ weeks would be hard for most people. Probably better off going to a flowthrough regional with a signing bonus then hopping from Spirit to Jetblue after 6 months.

Good point. But those flowthroughs might never come either. He/she might go to spirit and like it and never look back.

GuppyPuppy
02-09-2018, 06:43 AM
JB if you like being forced to clean airplanes while non revving.

Sad, but true.

Gup

Bluedriver
02-09-2018, 06:50 AM
You obviously just skimmed through what I wrote and focused on the Jetblue part, so maybe read it again. If this person's current job situation is adequate then yes I would wait. If World War III or some terrorist attack happens in the next 6 months, he's probably better off at his current job then at the bottom of the Spirit or anyone's seniority list anyway.

If his current employment was any good, he wouldn't be considering Spirit, or JetBlue!

nuball5
02-09-2018, 06:54 AM
If his current employment was any good, he wouldn't be considering Spirit, or JetBlue!

Lol! Well that's for another discussion.

blueballs
02-09-2018, 09:36 AM
JB if you like being forced to clean airplanes while non revving.
Iíve been here for over 5 years. No one has yet to force me to clean. Iíve been scorned and threatened but never forced. In spite of a certain EVP here saying she wants names of people that do not clean so she can take care of it. I have yet to receive a call or email to discipline me. They canít force you to do anything and if the day ever comes that they try to discipline me....my mec speaks for me.

Bluedriver
02-09-2018, 09:41 AM
Iíve been here for over 5 years. No one has yet to force me to clean. Iíve been scorned and threatened but never forced. **********In spite of a certain EVP here saying she wants names of people that do not clean so she can take care of it.*********** I have yet to receive a call or email to discipline me. They canít force you to do anything and if the day ever comes that they try to discipline me....my mec speaks for me.

Requires significant emphasis.










By the way, I expect the contract to address this issue.

hilltopflyer
02-09-2018, 10:53 AM
Iíve been here for over 5 years. No one has yet to force me to clean. Iíve been scorned and threatened but never forced. In spite of a certain EVP here saying she wants names of people that do not clean so she can take care of it. I have yet to receive a call or email to discipline me. They canít force you to do anything and if the day ever comes that they try to discipline me....my mec speaks for me.

A EVP actually said that? When was this. I find it really sad/funny they think anything will happen.

Xtreme87
02-09-2018, 10:58 AM
A EVP actually said that? When was this. I find it really sad/funny they think anything will happen.

Well there is nothing stopping them from pulling your Myidtravel access. Which is why we better get travel in the contract.

txbusdriver
02-09-2018, 11:03 AM
A EVP actually said that? When was this. I find it really sad/funny they think anything will happen.

It did happen. Itís on video from one of those pocket sessions. JG wants to know if you arenít cleaning.

Bluedriver
02-09-2018, 11:10 AM
It did happen. Itís on video from one of those pocket sessions. JG wants to know if you arenít cleaning.

100% verifiable fact. That's JetBlue culture.

Otterbox
02-09-2018, 11:27 AM
The question is will he make enough money to make his/her decision worth it. Going off the scenario that JetBlue will sign a TA in 2020....

Spirit 1st year (new TA) $56/hour
Jetblue 1st year $53.50/hour.

Year 2....$106.50/hour-Spa
$95/hour-JB

Year 3. $115/hour-Spa
$111/hour-JB

If you're current job/financial situation allows you to wait until later this year to take the JetBlue job, then I would wait. Unless you live in a Spirit base. Or apply to the Big 3. Good luck in your decision.

Bad advice... never turn down a class date at a place better than weíre youre currently at for continuation in an interview process somewhere else. Until youíre in class at your destination of choice take the best (or only in this case) option on the table at the time.

Final Clear
02-09-2018, 11:28 AM
100% verifiable fact. That's JetBlue culture.


The culture of threatening your employees if they fail to work for free. Any prospective job applicant needs to understand that this is the reality of "culture" at jetblue...work for free or else...

Hey jetblue...FUPM,

FC

Xtreme87
02-09-2018, 11:43 AM
My question is, if they do pull your myIDtravel access for not cleaning, what does that mean for commuters? Is that even possible?

queue
02-09-2018, 11:43 AM
Iíve been here for over 5 years. No one has yet to force me to clean. Iíve been scorned and threatened but never forced. In spite of a certain EVP here saying she wants names of people that do not clean so she can take care of it. I have yet to receive a call or email to discipline me. They canít force you to do anything and if the day ever comes that they try to discipline me....my mec speaks for me.

BlueBalls, don't count on your MEC helping you in any way. Firstly, they can only follow contractual obligations and laws. You probably took the online training and signed the legally binding contract at the end. Regardless, they wrote it in their manuals. I don't think you have any legal recourse the way things are now. Secondly, the MEC had an opportunity to attack JB on their policy and all they did was to grieve the fact that you didn't get paid to take the trsining. They grieved the wrong thing!!! They can do a lot more (hear that Union guys???? contact me!!!!) but they lack the will to do so. Remember that so far we only have 3 years of failure... no contract. I only care about results, not intentions, not parades, not lanyards...

Force is a nebulous term. You are contractually obligated to clean. -- in fact it's the ONLY contract you poor devils have. (The PEA is crap because it always ends in arbitration kangaroo court... e.g 3A). Short of gunpoint, that's pretty forceful.

I kindly ask that you do not lower your standards by being accepting of a statistically insignificant personal experience to rationalize saying the blackmail cleaning contract is okay.

You are a professional. Donít ever forget!


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/Robin_Olds_during_vietnam_war.jpg/511px-Robin_Olds_during_vietnam_war.jpg

queue
02-09-2018, 11:47 AM
My question is, if they do pull your myIDtravel access for not cleaning, what does that mean for commuters? Is that even possible?

Correct.

they said they would
theres's no law saying they have to commute you to work
theres no contract governing pass riding that prevents them from asking you to clean


They can do whatever they want as long as we tolerate it. That is the legal truth, and thus all that matters.

aldonite7667
02-09-2018, 11:50 AM
You can not be contractually obligated to do anything for free.

nuball5
02-09-2018, 11:55 AM
Bad advice... never turn down a class date at a place better than weíre youre currently at for continuation in an interview process somewhere else. Until youíre in class at your destination of choice take the best (or only in this case) option on the table at the time.

You have no idea if his current situation is better than Spirit or Jetblue, that was the whole point. By all means go to Spirit now if their current job is worse. From the sound of it, this person isn't that serious about either airline so I'm guessing their current situation is better.

queue
02-09-2018, 11:56 AM
You can not be contractually obligated to do anything for free.

You signed the contract at the end of online training.

Until you go to court to have them make case law saying ĒYou can not be contractually obligated to do anything for free.Ē, you are legally obligated. Sorry but that is the legal truth.

The problem is the industry has working for free as an industry standard... e.g. FAs donít get paid till the door closes. Again sorry but I read a legal brief on this and it doesnít look good for what you said.

Now, I vehemently AGREE WITH YOU. But, our useless PEA will not help nor will our union, unless they decide to try more things.

Btw, I support my union strongly but I expect results. So far no deliverables.

queue
02-09-2018, 12:00 PM
Requires significant emphasis

By the way, I expect the contract to address this issue.

It had better specifically disallow us being indentured into any servitude not specifically and positively allowed in our contract. And, we shall NEVER CLEAN or else we will vote out our MEC and publicly shame them.

Xtreme87
02-09-2018, 12:37 PM
It had better specifically disallow us being indentured into any servitude not specifically and positively allowed in our contract. And, we shall NEVER CLEAN or else we will vote out our MEC and publicly shame them.

Iím not cleaning, so if the contract doesnít address that, itís a big fat No for me.

GuppyPuppy
02-09-2018, 12:59 PM
100% verifiable fact. That's JetBlue culture.

When i startrd we werent required to clean, we were asked to help. Now JB threatens to take away your travel privileges if you don't clean when non-revving.

Reminds me of Darth Vader altering the deal with Landau. "Pray that I don't alter it further".

Gup

Aquaticus
02-09-2018, 01:29 PM
Fair warning spirit training is extremely condensed. I know a few people with pink slips in their file because of that check ride. It isnít aqp and for some it is their first experience with an old school checkride. Nothing crazy but there is added stress. I spent time at Blue and the people there were great but their ď5 valuesĒ are just lip service. You are a number and will suffer the consequences of inept managers making policies with zero industry experience. It felt very much like a large regional.

Spiritís profits are some of the highest in the industry. JetBlue is middle of the pack with extreme cost advantages that will be going away. If their faís unionize and the pilots get a TA they will be in the realm of the big three profit margin wise without the network of international travelers . I would go to spirit. It will still be a Mickey Mouse operation at times but it is comfortable owning what it is. They make money through a cheap product that aggravates the consumer but that same consumers cheapness is a market constant.

pilotpayne
02-09-2018, 02:05 PM
Fair warning spirit training is extremely condensed. I know a few people with pink slips in their file because of that check ride. It isnít aqp and for some it is their first experience with an old school checkride. Nothing crazy but there is added stress. I spent time at Blue and the people there were great but their ď5 valuesĒ are just lip service. You are a number and will suffer the consequences of inept managers making policies with zero industry experience. It felt very much like a large regional.

Spiritís profits are some of the highest in the industry. JetBlue is middle of the pack with extreme cost advantages that will be going away. If their faís unionize and the pilots get a TA they will be in the realm of the big three profit margin wise without the network of international travelers . I would go to spirit. It will still be a Mickey Mouse operation at times but it is comfortable owning what it is. They make money through a cheap product that aggravates the consumer but that same consumers cheapness is a market constant.

You guys want to fly to europe making 40% less than your peers, staying at aloft's across the street from the airport, mediocre healthcare, dealing with some fly by night 401k servicer, and with work rules that make legacies look like retirement. JetBlue cannot keep their profit where it was in 2015 with the aggressive delivery of aircraft they have slated. Look at deltas 3q earnings statement. There is a softening of ticketing revenue and it is predicted to only get worse. You are going to have 30 new planes with new routes generating a loss within the next year. Starting service to ATL, again, is an excercise in futility. Arguing over 10% or 15% of a tiny number is stupid. JetBlue wont have a profit like 2015 in the near future.

JetBlue's newhire classes consist of 50% people that cannot move on to a legacy either due to flight time or other issues. This is why they did that. They know they have you for your career. Why would they offer something out of the goodness of their hearts?

Welcome back to jetblue.

As for the poster I would go with the first class date and go from there. The crew I just talked to the FO came from Spirit so it does happen. Will you have a contract yes will it be the new one, looking at the Spirit thread it does not seem so. Also ease of commute or living in base would be a huge factor to me. Good luck man

queue
02-09-2018, 02:08 PM
When i startrd we werent required to clean, we were asked to help. Now JB threatens to take away your travel privileges if you don't clean when non-revving.

Reminds me of Darth Vader altering the deal with Landau. "Pray that I don't alter it further".

Gup

And think of all the fools that believed JB propaganda despite the fact that every business on the planet always ends up in the same place.

P-3Bubba
02-09-2018, 02:38 PM
I think BlueBalls is simply bringing out the fact that there's not an ongoing witch hunt to produce a list of non-cleaning non-rev non-juicers. His attempt to dissipate paranoia.

JG was in a pocket session infront of her boss and on a roll with the mic, as she pandered to the paid to attend inflight audience. No one cares.

Que- Your point about the PEA and 3A, especially how neither holds a grain of sand in court, is precisely the reason that the CBA is vital to the pilot group. Ive never vehemently supported the union, but in this industry a CBA is key. Jblue always wins when it comes to making their own rules and changing the ones they no longer wish to acknowledge.

-Bubs

pilotpayne
02-09-2018, 03:11 PM
I think BlueBalls is simply bringing out the fact that there's not an ongoing witch hunt to produce a list of non-cleaning non-rev non-juicers. His attempt to dissipate paranoia.

JG was in a pocket session infront of her boss and on a roll with the mic, as she pandered to the paid to attend inflight audience. No one cares.

Que- Your point about the PEA and 3A, especially how neither holds a grain of sand in court, is precisely the reason that the CBA is vital to the pilot group. Ive never vehemently supported the union, but in this industry a CBA is key. Jblue always wins when it comes to making their own rules and changing the ones they no longer wish to acknowledge.

-Bubs


Between this and the hostage taking thread on BP Iím sacred to go to work....:cool:

queue
02-10-2018, 12:14 PM
Between this and the hostage taking thread on BP Iím sacred to go to work....:cool:

Hostage taking? Do share....

pilotpayne
02-10-2018, 12:23 PM
Hostage taking? Do share....



You need to join bluepilots.

queue
02-10-2018, 12:27 PM
You need to join bluepilots.

I'm not allowed.

Final Clear
02-10-2018, 01:09 PM
I'm not allowed.

...I canít get a response from anyone either...

Hey jetblue...FUPM,

FC

pilotpayne
02-10-2018, 01:39 PM
...I canít get a response from anyone either...

Hey jetblue...FUPM,

FC

You boys need to pm flyby on here he could help you out.
He has a work around for it. But I think he is in training so he might be busy.

Qotsaautopilot
02-10-2018, 04:47 PM
If you live in a base for either airline go to that airline. If they share a base like FLL then roll the dice and let me know what you rolled at 65

PasserOGas
02-10-2018, 06:37 PM
You can not be contractually obligated to do anything for free.

Exactly. I think you could argue succesfully before a court that removing travel privleges counts as disciplinary in nature, thus you would be disciplined for not providing free labor. Not a guaranteed win (corporations run the government, including the courts) but a strong possibility of success. If we formed a class on this issue, how many millions of $ would jetblew owe ALL the employees it forced to work without pay?

queue
02-11-2018, 04:12 AM
Exactly. I think you could argue succesfully before a court that removing travel privleges counts as disciplinary in nature, thus you would be disciplined for not providing free labor. Not a guaranteed win (corporations run the government, including the courts) but a strong possibility of success. If we formed a class on this issue, how many millions of $ would jetblew owe ALL the employees it forced to work without pay?

Too bad the ALPA lawyers never engaged BlueJet on this. For 1.9%+ I would've expected legal resistance and not just bending over with some misdirected training grievance. Please contact your ALPA reps and force them into action since they have been virtually sheepish on this. Force them to action, or kick them out. Only results matter.

rvr1800
02-11-2018, 04:31 AM
Too bad the ALPA lawyers never engaged BlueJet on this. For 1.9%+ I would've expected legal resistance and not just bending over with some misdirected training grievance. Please contact your ALPA reps and force them into action since they have been virtually sheepish on this. Force them to action, or kick them out. Only results matter.

queue do you work at jetBlue? If so have you reached out to your reps about this? What was the response?

PasserOGas
02-12-2018, 07:01 AM
queue do you work at jetBlue? If so have you reached out to your reps about this? What was the response?

Rvr, do we really need to reach out to them about this? They are aware and have chosen not to act. Heck when this policy was enacted (during contract negotiations and status quo no less) one of our LECs was pulled into the chief pilots office and threatened for not cleaning on his commute. No response from ALPA. Limp d**k.

rvr1800
02-12-2018, 10:09 AM
Rvr, do we really need to reach out to them about this? They are aware and have chosen not to act. Heck when this policy was enacted (during contract negotiations and status quo no less) one of our LECs was pulled into the chief pilots office and threatened for not cleaning on his commute. No response from ALPA. Limp d**k.

This cleaning policy has been in the pass riding guide since probably day 1 of jetBlue. This was not a policy enacted during negotiations. The forced CBT training was and there is a grievance ongoing about it. So maybe you should reach out to your reps because youíre obviously not well informed on the issue.

atrdriver
02-12-2018, 10:28 AM
This cleaning policy has been in the pass riding guide since probably day 1 of jetBlue. This was not a policy enacted during negotiations. The forced CBT training was and there is a grievance ongoing about it. So maybe you should reach out to your reps because youíre obviously not well informed on the issue.

The language in the policy ("should" "expected" etc) is not binding. Therefore there should be no intimidation and harassment from mgmt.

Papa Bear
02-12-2018, 11:29 AM
I had the same choice. Even if I were to have upgraded at Spirit and still being an FO at this point 5 yrs later Iíve made more money at B6. In the future who knows. Whatís your favorite color? If you like yellow go with Spirit.

cf105
02-12-2018, 12:21 PM
I had the same choice. Even if I were to have upgraded at Spirit and still being an FO at this point 5 yrs later Iíve made more money at B6. In the future who knows. Whatís your favorite color? If you like yellow go with Spirit.

ha ha, thanks. I have to admit that if Spirit doesn't pass their TA, then the choice will be easy.

Bluedriver
02-12-2018, 01:03 PM
ha ha, thanks. I have to admit that if Spirit doesn't pass their TA, then the choice will be easy.

Not if you've been listening. Take the Spirit job, TA or no TA if it is better than the one you have long term. Two weeks before your JB class date, make your final decision based on the information you have available at the time.

If Spirit doesn't pass their TA right now, a much better one may be voted in within a few months like Delta and SWA did recently.

Passing on the Spirit job counting on JB to come through for you may well be your first (but far from your last) JB disappointment.

Southerner
02-12-2018, 02:06 PM
The language in the policy ("should" "expected" etc) is not binding. Therefore there should be no intimidation and harassment from mgmt.

Keep reading.

"Crewmembers failing to assist our Inflight Crew May be subject to suspension or loss of Pass Riding privileges, for up to one year."

It's simple. If you don't want to cross seatbelts, don't use the pass benefits. There's no expectation for on-duty crewmembers to clean. It is within JetBlue's rights to ask for cleaning in exchange for pass privileges. Personally, I prefer cross a few seatbelts to paying an annual fee. At my regional it was $200 a year for my whole clan, and I resented it every year as much as you guys seem to resent cleaning. 6 in one, 1/2 dozen in the other.

Bluedriver
02-12-2018, 02:10 PM
Keep reading.

"Crewmembers failing to assist our Inflight Crew May be subject to suspension or loss of Pass Riding privileges, for up to one year."

It's simple. If you don't want to cross seatbelts, don't use the pass benefits. There's no expectation for on-duty crewmembers to clean. It is within JetBlue's rights to ask for cleaning in exchange for pass privileges. Personally, I prefer cross a few seatbelts to paying an annual fee. At my regional it was $200 a year for my whole clan, and I resented it every year as much as you guys seem to resent cleaning. 6 in one, 1/2 dozen in the other.

Wow. Another regional comparison.

What does a MAINLINE Delta pilot pay each year for pass privileges and are they expected to clean (seat belts is not the only expectation your VP wants you snitched on for)?

HighFlight
02-12-2018, 02:11 PM
Until a few months ago, it was $50 per year. Now it is $Free.99

Wow. Another regional comparison.

What does a MAINLINE Delta pilot pay each year for pass privileges and are they expected to clean (seat belts is not the only expectation your VP wants you snitched on for)?

aldonite7667
02-12-2018, 02:12 PM
Keep reading.

"Crewmembers failing to assist our Inflight Crew May be subject to suspension or loss of Pass Riding privileges, for up to one year."

It's simple. If you don't want to cross seatbelts, don't use the pass benefits. There's no expectation for on-duty crewmembers to clean. It is within JetBlue's rights to ask for cleaning in exchange for pass privileges. Personally, I prefer cross a few seatbelts to paying an annual fee. At my regional it was $200 a year for my whole clan, and I resented it every year as much as you guys seem to resent cleaning. 6 in one, 1/2 dozen in the other.

Iíll peel off two hundos and be out.

atrdriver
02-12-2018, 02:22 PM
Keep reading.

"Crewmembers failing to assist our Inflight Crew May be subject to suspension or loss of Pass Riding privileges, for up to one year."

It's simple. If you don't want to cross seatbelts, don't use the pass benefits. There's no expectation for on-duty crewmembers to clean. It is within JetBlue's rights to ask for cleaning in exchange for pass privileges. Personally, I prefer cross a few seatbelts to paying an annual fee. At my regional it was $200 a year for my whole clan, and I resented it every year as much as you guys seem to resent cleaning. 6 in one, 1/2 dozen in the other.

So you are willing to trade your dignity for a $200 savings. Got it.

pilotpayne
02-12-2018, 02:22 PM
Not if you've been listening. Take the Spirit job, TA or no TA if it is better than the one you have long term. Two weeks before your JB class date, make your final decision based on the information you have available at the time.

If Spirit doesn't pass their TA right now, a much better one may be voted in within a few months like Delta and SWA did recently.

Passing on the Spirit job counting on JB to come through for you may well be your first (but far from your last) JB disappointment.

Bluedriver and I argue a lot but he is totally right on this one.(maybe the last line of his was not needed but ehhh)
Never pass up a class date. If you know you donít want to stay where you are long term take Spirit and see what is going on at jetblue later.
But we are just people on the internet....good luck

Bluedriver
02-12-2018, 02:35 PM
Until a few months ago, it was $50 per year. Now it is $Free.99

Well, it may be free but are you expected to pilot-janitor?

atrdriver
02-12-2018, 02:42 PM
Well, it may be free but are you expected to pilot-janitor?

No. And you and your family get free first class/comfort+ upgrades when theyíre available. Leave your empty mini bottles in the seatback pocket for the cleaners (not pilots) to collect.

slimothy
02-12-2018, 02:43 PM
No. And you and your family get free first class/comfort+ upgrades when theyíre available. Leave your empty mini bottles in the seatback pocket for the cleaners (not pilots) to collect.

UAL flies you PS 1st class to recurrent.

atrdriver
02-12-2018, 02:47 PM
UAL flies you PS 1st class to recurrent.

And no middle seat on duty deadheads. Want to guess how many times Iíve been in a middle seat from SJU back to BOS at the end of a trip?! With no TV or WiFi to boot.....Misery

Gordie H
02-12-2018, 02:55 PM
So you are willing to trade your dignity for a $200 savings. Got it.

What does ďdignityĒ have to do with anything? Itís not our job to clean while working and itís legit to say youíd rather pay $200Öbut dignity has nothing to do with it.

atrdriver
02-12-2018, 03:00 PM
What does ďdignityĒ have to do with anything? Itís not our job to clean while working and itís legit to say youíd rather pay $200Öbut dignity has nothing to do with it.

He wasnít talking about while working. The context was pass riding. We are not janitors and our employer should not treat us as such, even if we are taking advantage of an industry standard benefit.

The ďblueturnĒ doesnít save time. It alienates customers. It is only there to degrade employees and pit workgroups against each other.

Southerner
02-12-2018, 04:28 PM
He wasn’t talking about while working. The context was pass riding. We are not janitors and our employer should not treat us as such, even if we are taking advantage of an industry standard benefit.

The “blueturn” doesn’t save time. It alienates customers. It is only there to degrade employees and pit workgroups against each other.

The fact of the matter is that it is a perk that the company can set the criteria for. I don't personally like to do it, but I do like traveling as a pass rider. So, when I travel as a pass rider, I do what the company asks for in exchange for that benefit. The fact is that now, I probably would prefer to pay the $200. Back then I was B R O K E, so I really had a problem with paying it. I would've preferred to cross a few seatbelts back then. In any case, my point is that companies get to choose what the requirements are to get a benefit. JetBlue has made their choice. And you have to make your choice about whether to abide by that requirement or not, and whether to use the benefit or not.

Unfortunately too many people mix up the cleaning while on duty with the cleaning in exchange for a benefit. You'll get no argument from me that it should be expected or required that anyone clean while on duty.

PilotJ3
02-12-2018, 04:33 PM
Well, it may be free but are you expected to pilot-janitor?

No, neither the FAs are expected to clean after the plane lands.

Bluedriver
02-12-2018, 04:41 PM
No, neither the FAs are expected to clean after the plane lands.

How can it possibly be that you don't have to pay for pass benefits and you don't have to clean the airplane?

Southerner
02-12-2018, 04:42 PM
Wow. Another regional comparison.

What does a MAINLINE Delta pilot pay each year for pass privileges and are they expected to clean (seat belts is not the only expectation your VP wants you snitched on for)?

That's not a regional comparison dude. That's saying what my last carrier did versus this one. Yes, it was a regional, but I wasn't making a value comparison between the airlines. I simply said that I prefer the crossing seatbelts to paying money. BTW- at the time Delta mainline made people pay too. This wasn't unique to the Delta Connection Carriers.

I keep forgetting that you don't have a strong command of the English language though. What's your address, I'll send you a dictionary.

Bluedriver
02-12-2018, 04:43 PM
The fact of the matter is that it is a perk that the company can set the criteria for. I don't personally like to do it, but I do like traveling as a pass rider. So, when I travel as a pass rider, I do what the company asks for in exchange for that benefit. The fact is that now, I probably would prefer to pay the $200. Back then I was B R O K E, so I really had a problem with paying it. I would've preferred to cross a few seatbelts back then. In any case, my point is that companies get to choose what the requirements are to get a benefit. JetBlue has made their choice. And you have to make your choice about whether to abide by that requirement or not, and whether to use the benefit or not.

Unfortunately too many people mix up the cleaning while on duty with the cleaning in exchange for a benefit. You'll get no argument from me that it should be expected or required that anyone clean while on duty.

We are a represented labor group now. We no longer have to simply accept whatever benefit scraps are dangled from New York.

Travel benefits are a "market rate" pilot benefit of employment and we should not have to clean airplanes to use our "market rate" benefit.

There is nothing more to say Southerner. Get on board the MAINLINE train.

Southerner
02-12-2018, 04:45 PM
We are a represented labor group now. We no longer have to simply accept whatever benefit scraps are dangled from New York.

Travel benefits are a "market rate" pilot benefit of employment and we should not have to clean airplanes to use our "market rate" benefit.

There is nothing more to say Southerner. Get on board the MAINLINE train.

If the future CBA states that we don't have to clean, then that will be the new agreement we all operate under. Until then, I operate under status quo, as do you and the company.

Bluedriver
02-12-2018, 04:52 PM
That's not a regional comparison dude. That's saying what my last carrier did versus this one. Yes, it was a regional, but I wasn't making a value comparison between the airlines. I simply said that I prefer the crossing seatbelts to paying money. BTW- at the time Delta mainline made people pay too. This wasn't unique to the Delta Connection Carriers.

I keep forgetting that you don't have a strong command of the English language though. What's your address, I'll send you a dictionary.

We've done this reading comprehension thing before, do you really want to do it again?

Mainline pilots at our peers are next expected to pilot-janitor for there "market rate" travel privileges. Some have had a fee in the past, most do not today.

We are a represented labor group now. We no longer have to just accept whatever policy New York dictates to us. Included in our new CBA I expect normal "market rate" travel benefits in exchange for the normal industry standard amount of pilot-janitor work (ZERO).

Get aboard the MAINLINE train Southerner.

Bluedriver
02-12-2018, 04:53 PM
If the future CBA states that we don't have to clean, then that will be the new agreement we all operate under. Until then, I operate under status quo, as do you and the company.

Correction, you defend the status quo.

jetliner1526
02-12-2018, 04:57 PM
If given the options, both interviews passed, would you choose to take the CJO and the April class at Spirit, or keep going with jetBlue even if the hiring process is much longer and you won't get a class until Sept?

One may vote a new contract within a month, the other one will eventually get one...

Why wait? Clearly, you applied at both, so go with the flow and make changes when opportunity presents itself, if that is what you desire at the time.

Southerner
02-12-2018, 05:06 PM
Correction, you defend the status quo.

Negative. I live under the rules as they exist today. You INTERPRET that as defending them, because, as we've all seen repeatedly, you don't understand the English language.

I have said, over and over, that I understand where the weaknesses are, and that I look forward to a solid CBA. All I have ever disagreed with you on is your terrible attitude, and the fact that you have an axe to grind. You, and a few others, intentionally try to discourage recruitment to put pressure on the company. Someone might actually read your drivel, and remain in a worse place because you are using them as pawns in your game. That's what bothers me.

I don't really give a dang what you think of the company, or me. But I do care if people get stuck in a worse situation because they don't understand that your posts have an ulterior motive. We all have friends who got stuck at a regional for 15-20 years because the timing wasn't right, or they thought things were better there, or whatever excuse they made up for staying. Well, unless the paint on the side of the plane matches your paycheck, it isn't going to be stable. No one should pass up on JetBlue waiting for a call from another airline that may never come.

Gordie H
02-12-2018, 05:21 PM
He wasnít talking about while working. The context was pass riding. We are not janitors and our employer should not treat us as such, even if we are taking advantage of an industry standard benefit.

The ďblueturnĒ doesnít save time. It alienates customers. It is only there to degrade employees and pit workgroups against each other.

Yup, I get all that. I initially took your reply to Southerner to imply that people who do actually clean for a living donít have ďdignityĒÖ.which I DONíT think you meant.

I might have been a bit sensitive to it as I had just gotten done cleaning the toilet..(the one in my house)

atrdriver
02-12-2018, 06:01 PM
Yup, I get all that. I initially took your reply to Southerner to imply that people who do actually clean for a living donít have ďdignityĒÖ.which I DONíT think you meant.

I might have been a bit sensitive to it as I had just gotten done cleaning the toilet..(the one in my house)

of course not. I believe they have WAY more dignity than pilots dumpster diving, honest to God. Anyone who is willing to work the ďlesserĒ jobs to provide for their family commands great respect. Pilots who dumpster dive because theyíve been brainwashed by their underpaying airline are a whole different story.

Summary: I respect actual aircraft cleaners 1000000x more than pilots who pretend to be aircraft cleaners.

Gordie H
02-12-2018, 06:33 PM
of course not. I believe they have WAY more dignity than pilots dumpster diving, honest to God. Anyone who is willing to work the ďlesserĒ jobs to provide for their family commands great respect. Pilots who dumpster dive because theyíve been brainwashed by their underpaying airline are a whole different story.

Summary: I respect actual aircraft cleaners 1000000x more than pilots who pretend to be aircraft cleaners.


Very good to hear. Cheers...

coopervane
02-12-2018, 06:36 PM
. You, and a few others, intentionally try to discourage recruitment to put pressure on the company. Someone might actually read your drivel, and remain in a worse place because you are using them as pawns in your game. That's what bothers me.

See, now this is what bothers ME!!! I donít like someone putting words in my mouth.

I donít....repeat DO NOT discourage people from coming here to put pressure on management. That is NOT MY MOTIVATION. I dont give a $hit....

I discourage people from coming here because I bought the entire bill of goods. I though I had found a home. I drank from the blue juice fountain and I believed in it. I cleaned. I loved to help out.

Now I Am ashamed and embarrassed and ****ed off that I fell for it......that this company is SO disingenuous. Now I feel trapped and canít seem to get out. And 50 is Almost here.

Donít be me is what Iím saying. Make better choices......LISTEN to people waving gigantic red flags in your face. Nobody waved them at me. Unless you NEED A LIFEBOAT NOW....... I would concentrate elsewhere.

Now it is true that this MIGHT put pressure on mgmt. But I simply donít care about applying pressure anymore. Dont CARE. I would prefer to watch them all be put on the street. They deserve that.

Southerner
02-12-2018, 07:15 PM
See, now this is what bothers ME!!! I donít like someone putting words in my mouth.

I donít....repeat DO NOT discourage people from coming here to put pressure on management. That is NOT MY MOTIVATION. I dont give a $hit....

I discourage people from coming here because I bought the entire bill of goods. I though I had found a home. I drank from the blue juice fountain and I believed in it. I cleaned. I loved to help out.

Now I Am ashamed and embarrassed and ****ed off that I fell for it......that this company is SO disingenuous. Now I feel trapped and canít seem to get out. And 50 is Almost here.

Donít be me is what Iím saying. Make better choices......LISTEN to people waving gigantic red flags in your face. Nobody waved them at me. Unless you NEED A LIFEBOAT NOW....... I would concentrate elsewhere.

Now it is true that this MIGHT put pressure on mgmt. But I simply donít care about applying pressure anymore. Dont CARE. I would prefer to watch them all be put on the street. They deserve that.

I hear you. I have never understood why people came here thinking that management was different than any other management of a publicly traded company. Their responsibility is to the shareholders, not us. Our job is to negotiate the best deal possible. Their job is to keep the costs down and grow the airline. Perhaps that's why I'm not angry and you guys are SO angry. Why would I be angry at management running the airline "like management?" I never felt "duped." I did feel surprised with some of their decisions that seemed to be designed to ensure ALPA was elected, since their words said they didn't want a union. To this day I don't know if the previous regime secretly wanted ALPA, or just didn't understand the psychology of pilots. I suspect it's the latter.

If you came here thinking that it would be drastically different from other airlines, I feel sad about that. It sucks. And the current regime is FAR different from the previous ones, particularly in communication style. At the end of the day it's all business. Those that take it personally lose, every time.

PasserOGas
02-12-2018, 07:24 PM
Negative. I live under the rules as they exist today. You INTERPRET that as defending them, because, as we've all seen repeatedly, you don't understand the English language.

I have said, over and over, that I understand where the weaknesses are, and that I look forward to a solid CBA. All I have ever disagreed with you on is your terrible attitude, and the fact that you have an axe to grind. You, and a few others, intentionally try to discourage recruitment to put pressure on the company. Someone might actually read your drivel, and remain in a worse place because you are using them as pawns in your game. That's what bothers me.

I don't really give a dang what you think of the company, or me. But I do care if people get stuck in a worse situation because they don't understand that your posts have an ulterior motive. We all have friends who got stuck at a regional for 15-20 years because the timing wasn't right, or they thought things were better there, or whatever excuse they made up for staying. Well, unless the paint on the side of the plane matches your paycheck, it isn't going to be stable. No one should pass up on JetBlue waiting for a call from another airline that may never come.


What is that thing called where you perform actions to benefit someone else in exchange for compensation? Labor? And don't we have all sorts of state and federal laws governing that activity? And arent ther safety, training, and minimum wage requirements attached to it? Is B6 following ANY of those when requiring this?

Southerner
02-12-2018, 07:29 PM
What is that thing called where you perform actions to benefit someone else in exchange for compensation? Labor? And don't we have all sorts of state and federal laws governing that activity? And arent ther safety, training, and minimum wage requirements attached to it? Is B6 following ANY of those when requiring this?

You don't seem to comprehend that you're getting the free flights in exchange for the "light cleaning." You'll never win your argument in court. The company can require whatever they like in exchange for the free flights.

BlueDriver is right that it all might change with the CBA. But for now it is what it is. I agreed to the travel policy. Did you?

PasserOGas
02-12-2018, 09:21 PM
You don't seem to comprehend that you're getting the free flights in exchange for the "light cleaning." You'll never win your argument in court. The company can require whatever they like in exchange for the free flights.

BlueDriver is right that it all might change with the CBA. But for now it is what it is. I agreed to the travel policy. Did you?

By definition the flight isn't free if I have to exchange my labor for it. The flight would be my wage in exchange for cleaning.

Do they pay payroll taxes on my labor? Do they train how to safely clean and avoid needles and such in the seatbacks? Do they claim my labor or account for it with the IRS? Do my wages comply with federal minimum wage standards? (I know, I am RLA but not everyone being "asked" to clean is.)

Please, tell me how they would crush these arguments in court.

BeatNavy
02-12-2018, 09:22 PM
I hear you. I have never understood why people came here thinking that management was different than any other management of a publicly traded company. Their responsibility is to the shareholders, not us. Our job is to negotiate the best deal possible. Their job is to keep the costs down and grow the airline. Perhaps that's why I'm not angry and you guys are SO angry. Why would I be angry at management running the airline "like management?" I never felt "duped." I did feel surprised with some of their decisions that seemed to be designed to ensure ALPA was elected, since their words said they didn't want a union. To this day I don't know if the previous regime secretly wanted ALPA, or just didn't understand the psychology of pilots. I suspect it's the latter.

If you came here thinking that it would be drastically different from other airlines, I feel sad about that. It sucks. And the current regime is FAR different from the previous ones, particularly in communication style. At the end of the day it's all business. Those that take it personally lose, every time.

Their responsibility is not JUST to the shareholders. They have a responsibility to their employees as well. And, over half of the employees ARE shareholders. Furthermore, as part of their duty to shareholders, having a content workforce is paramount to running the operation efficiently...part of maximizing shareholder value. I don’t think our leadership is doing very well in that area. I don’t think any shareholders want us to be dead last in performance, and that’s where we are. Again, some pilot goodwill can help that tremendously. How can DAL/UAL/AA/SWA pay pilots so much more than JB (with lower margins mind you)? They are public companies who have duties to their shareholders.

I don’t take personally the fact that management wants to keep costs down...I’m a shareholder and I have a vested interest in this place doing well financially for the next 30+ years. I do get infuriated when I see a place that I’m invested in, with such promise and opportunity, squander it, deviating from the values it professes to live by, and causing a labor dispute by not coming to the table with reasonable market rate offers (which, by the way, other airlines pay for and do just fine financially). They could just get this thing done and we could move on with our lives and all help to make this place great again—a labor dispute won’t help that.

Watching bad decisions that affect me and my family elicits emotion. 700 others I marched with have the same sentiment. It’s just business (and control) to the guys at the top because they still get paid large sums of money regardless. They care more about their ego getting bruised by having to pay pilots and caving in negotiations than they do the actual labor cost increase. Shareholders don’t care about how much pilots get paid...especially if it’s in line with everyone else. It’s causing irreversible damage to the pilot group and company, and as a shareholder and employee I demand better leadership. When Wall Street is acknowledging that we are way under market rate and they want to know what/when they can update their labor cost models, that’s a good indicator that it’s past time.

I also get peeved when I see pilots like you working against us (and against yourself) by not following your MEC’s guidance and not wearing a lanyard. You are setting us back, and it affects me and my family. By you and the other ropers/patriots/redsox not supporting our collective pilot group (ie the union) and not having any unity with the rest of us, it further delays me getting compensated appropriately and being able to appropriately take care of my family. So while it’s “just business” to management and wannabe management like you and others with low self-worth who think jetblue (and not alpa) has their best interest in mind, it’s personal to the rest of us.

From a business standpoint, don’t you think that it makes sense for you to wear a lanyard? Anything you can do to help the union/negotiators helps you in the end, and they insist on your support in that endeavor. Are you afraid you won’t get your next management job if you are seen wearing an ALPA lanyard? Afraid your homies in Orlando will judge you for leaving the dark side?

Final Clear
02-13-2018, 01:46 AM
I hear you. I have never understood why people came here thinking that management was different than any other management of a publicly traded company. Their responsibility is to the shareholders, not us. Our job is to negotiate the best deal possible. Their job is to keep the costs down and grow the airline. Perhaps that's why I'm not angry and you guys are SO angry. Why would I be angry at management running the airline "like management?" I never felt "duped." I did feel surprised with some of their decisions that seemed to be designed to ensure ALPA was elected, since their words said they didn't want a union. To this day I don't know if the previous regime secretly wanted ALPA, or just didn't understand the psychology of pilots. I suspect it's the latter.

If you came here thinking that it would be drastically different from other airlines, I feel sad about that. It sucks. And the current regime is FAR different from the previous ones, particularly in communication style. At the end of the day it's all business. Those that take it personally lose, every time.

Because they told us in the interview that this elt group was different and that integrity was a core value. They then proceeded to steal several hundred thousand dollars from each of us by failing to honor the contracts that they wrote. Then they harassed (and worse) those that dared to complain about their complete lack of integrity and Dave got the union he deserved. The harassment continued under the current regime, the one with FAR different communication (but same message), only with a FAR larger list for the elt that keeps growing.

In the end, potential new hires need to understand this. They need to understand that they are coming to an airline that is currently in a labor dispute and that management keeps signaling to us that there is a good chance that this will continue to escalate. Are new-hires financially prepared for the worst outcome, a strike on first year pay? Whether you agree or not is immaterial, the truthful history and current direction is what is important because that needs to be assessed with all the other decision inputs.

Your right about one thing, it’s just another airline - except the work rules, retirement, vacation system, reserve, and pay rates are FAR, FAR behind our competitors.

Hey jetblue...FUPM,

FC

rightside02
02-13-2018, 04:26 AM
I Would always take the first class date, sure it sucks to do it all over again. You never know what could happen tho. Had a buddy interview with JB years back received CJO, class date given which started following Tuesday . That Friday prior he received an email stating the offer was being rejected . 4 days prior to class !!! Guy was devastated ESP seeing as he already gave his two weeks notice .

I know the real story , and their was foul play committed by his previous airline , which caused JB to rescend the offer.

He was partially to blame but still shady what the airline did.

Long story short , always take the first classsate . You can leave 2 weeks in, it's just business.

I hate to say it but loyalty left this business a long time ago .

ConvairDriver
02-13-2018, 04:53 AM
"Maximizing shareholder value" is something that has, over time been been accepted as gospel. There is plenty reading out there that explains its origins. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevedenning/2013/06/26/the-origin-of-the-worlds-dumbest-idea-milton-friedman/#48369a9f870e

ForTheWin
02-13-2018, 06:17 AM
ha ha, thanks. I have to admit that if Spirit doesn't pass their TA, then the choice will be easy.

It's going to pass....+/- 75%. Don't let a handful of fear mongers in the Spirit section fool you. They are mostly uninformed about all the gains in the TA; and instead, are focusing on their opinion of the doom and gloom to come merely on hearsay and conjecture. Most of the vocal No crowd refuse to listen to any of the information the NC has put out. Can't fix willful ignorance.

I have many friends at JB and wish you well in your ongoing negotiations. Although, I'd be surprised if you get any substantive pay rate raises. Your NC is going to burn tons of negotiating capital just fixing your healthcare and work rules.

pilotpayne
02-13-2018, 06:34 AM
It's going to pass....+/- 75%. Don't let a handful of fear mongers in the Spirit section fool you. They are mostly uninformed about all the gains in the TA; and instead, are focusing on their opinion of the doom and gloom to come merely on hearsay and conjecture. Most of the vocal No crowd refuse to listen to any of the information the NC has put out. Can't fix willful ignorance.

I have many friends at JB and wish you well in your ongoing negotiations. Although, I'd be surprised if you get any substantive pay rate raises. Your NC is going to burn tons of negotiating capital just fixing your healthcare and work rules.


I honestly think our future CBA will surprise many people. I also fully expect large pay raises. We could have done the easy way and gone with a quick TA but our guys wanted to start from scratch and build it up. While I know they are only ďrumorsĒ what has leaked sounds good. Having said all of that we donít have a CBA and nobody knows when we will.

PasserOGas
02-13-2018, 09:40 AM
It's going to pass....+/- 75%. Don't let a handful of fear mongers in the Spirit section fool you. They are mostly uninformed about all the gains in the TA; and instead, are focusing on their opinion of the doom and gloom to come merely on hearsay and conjecture. Most of the vocal No crowd refuse to listen to any of the information the NC has put out. Can't fix willful ignorance.

I have many friends at JB and wish you well in your ongoing negotiations. Although, I'd be surprised if you get any substantive pay rate raises. Your NC is going to burn tons of negotiating capital just fixing your healthcare and work rules.

Our only negotiating capital is our willingness to walk. I will vote no until they bring me a market rate contract. Period. We may need to shut this place down for a while just to knock the arrogance out of this ELT. Be ready and prepare your finances.

WhistlePig
02-13-2018, 10:29 AM
Our only negotiating capital is our willingness to walk. I will vote no until they bring me a market rate contract. Period. We may need to shut this place down for a while just to knock the arrogance out of this ELT. Be ready and prepare your finances.

That may work for you but not everyone has been here for 10 years and had the opportunity to amass a savings cushion. That takes time. You will have folks leaving laterally if a strike is likely and you will have folks getting preferential interviews at ALPA carriers and leaving if there is a strike. A strike is a tool, but it is a tool that cuts both ways and is not something that should be threatened lightly.

WhistlePig
02-13-2018, 10:56 AM
Their responsibility is not JUST to the shareholders. They have a responsibility to their employees as well. And, over half of the employees ARE shareholders. Furthermore, as part of their duty to shareholders, having a content workforce is paramount to running the operation efficiently...part of maximizing shareholder value. I donít think our leadership is doing very well in that area. I donít think any shareholders want us to be dead last in performance, and thatís where we are. Again, some pilot goodwill can help that tremendously. How can DAL/UAL/AA/SWA pay pilots so much more than JB (with lower margins mind you)? They are public companies who have duties to their shareholders.


JetBlue has a moral duty to take care of its crewmembers and deal fairly with its business partners. And I agree, that is a good way to run a business. (And they only way to run a business that's foundation is the 5 values and culture, but I digress) Southwest has always put its employees ahead of its customers and empowered its employees to take care of the customers. It works.

But, JetBlue's only legal duty is the duty to its shareholders. If the shareholders think that their ROI is being diminished by bad business decisions such as spending too much on pilot compensation for example, they will seek a remedy in law. That remedy could include cash payouts representative of what the shareholders should have been paid or ouster of the board and taking control of the company. Imagine what that chaos would do to our job stability.

I agree goodwill is beneficial, but it is also very hard to quantify. We would be better off if management treated us the way they should. But they have no legal duty to do so.

Lastly, be careful comparing us to DAL/UAL/AA regarding goodwill and legal duties to shareholders. That legal duty resulted in strategic bankruptcies with the sole purpose of discharging pension obligations. Those bankruptcies ruined lives. Those companies could have restructured differently and followed a moral duty to their employees, but instead they honored their legal duty to their shareholders absolutely and without concern for the effect on the employees. It's not personal, it's the airline business.

For now, treat each other with respect, wear your lanyard, and fly SOP.

hilltopflyer
02-13-2018, 11:40 AM
They don't have to do any with regards to shareholders... it's not legally binding that the bod act in their best interest

pilotpayne
02-13-2018, 11:59 AM
JetBlue has a moral duty to take care of its crewmembers and deal fairly with its business partners. And I agree, that is a good way to run a business. (And they only way to run a business that's foundation is the 5 values and culture, but I digress) Southwest has always put its employees ahead of its customers and empowered its employees to take care of the customers. It works.

But, JetBlue's only legal duty is the duty to its shareholders. If the shareholders think that their ROI is being diminished by bad business decisions such as spending too much on pilot compensation for example, they will seek a remedy in law. That remedy could include cash payouts representative of what the shareholders should have been paid or ouster of the board and taking control of the company. Imagine what that chaos would do to our job stability.

I agree goodwill is beneficial, but it is also very hard to quantify. We would be better off if management treated us the way they should. But they have no legal duty to do so.

Lastly, be careful comparing us to DAL/UAL/AA regarding goodwill and legal duties to shareholders. That legal duty resulted in strategic bankruptcies with the sole purpose of discharging pension obligations. Those bankruptcies ruined lives. Those companies could have restructured differently and followed a moral duty to their employees, but instead they honored their legal duty to their shareholders absolutely and without concern for the effect on the employees. It's not personal, it's the airline business.

For now, treat each other with respect, wear your lanyard, and fly
SOP.


How quickly we forget

PasserOGas
02-13-2018, 01:20 PM
That may work for you but not everyone has been here for 10 years and had the opportunity to amass a savings cushion. That takes time. You will have folks leaving laterally if a strike is likely and you will have folks getting preferential interviews at ALPA carriers and leaving if there is a strike. A strike is a tool, but it is a tool that cuts both ways and is not something that should be threatened lightly.

I dont take it lightly, but I will drive for Uber, fly contract work, greet at Walmart, move back in with my parents if that is what it takes to make these scheming people pay market rate.

WhistlePig
02-13-2018, 01:24 PM
They don't have to do any with regards to shareholders... it's not legally binding that the bod act in their best interest

That statement is patently false.

Final Clear
02-13-2018, 03:47 PM
How quickly we forget



When a company declares bankruptcy, the shareholders walk away with nothing more times than not...it burns everyone except the bondholders 99% of the time.

Hey jetblue...FUPM,

FC

hilltopflyer
02-13-2018, 05:15 PM
That statement is patently false.

No because the bod can spin any decision they make any way they want. Gave pilots a market rate contract so we can keep hiring quality pilots, we built a new lodge (with a bod family building it) because it will make the brand better, even though they say it cost more money to lodge new hires there.

PasserOGas
02-14-2018, 05:03 AM
No because the bod can spin any decision they make any way they want. Gave pilots a market rate contract so we can keep hiring quality pilots, we built a new lodge (with a bod family building it) because it will make the brand better, even though they say it cost more money to lodge new hires there.

Truth! Wall street is already aware that a contract is coming. They could pay us well and spin it as an investment in the brand. No one has been fired at UAL, SWA, DAL, UPS, etc. over their pilot compensation. Too bad they have already destroyed the culture here through greed.

queue
02-17-2018, 05:12 AM
queue do you work at jetBlue? If so have you reached out to your reps about this? What was the response?

Crickets....

queue
02-17-2018, 05:16 AM
No one has been fired at UAL, SWA, DAL, UPS, etc. over their pilot compensation.

Because we allow the idiotic MBAs of the management class of U.S. corporations to lie to us without ever challenging them.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/111495-myth-fiduciary-responsibility.html

queue
02-17-2018, 05:23 AM
But, JetBlue's only legal duty is the duty to its shareholders. If the shareholders think that their ROI is being diminished by bad business decisions such as spending too much on pilot compensation for example, they will seek a remedy in law. That remedy could include cash payouts representative of what the shareholders should have been paid or ouster of the board and taking control of the company. Imagine what that chaos would do to our job stability.

I agree goodwill is beneficial, but it is also very hard to quantify. We would be better off if management treated us the way they should. But they have no legal duty to do so.

Lastly, be careful comparing us to DAL/UAL/AA regarding goodwill and legal duties to shareholders. That legal duty resulted in strategic bankruptcies with the sole purpose of discharging pension obligations. Those bankruptcies ruined lives. Those companies could have restructured differently and followed a moral duty to their employees, but instead they honored their legal duty to their shareholders absolutely and without concern for the effect on the employees. It's not personal, it's the airline business.

For now, treat each other with respect, wear your lanyard, and fly SOP.

Incorrect on many grounds. Fiduciary law is not to shareholders, it's to do things in the best interest of the company. Please see my posting https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/111495-myth-fiduciary-responsibility.html and read the law for yourself.

Secondly, those bankruptcies were not caused by companies paying per the actual cost of doing business. Bankruptcy is the new management 101 technique of restructuring. They are merely playing the MBA game.

Sliceback
02-17-2018, 06:16 AM
If given the options, both interviews passed, would you choose to take the CJO and the April class at Spirit, or keep going with jetBlue even if the hiring process is much longer and you won't get a class until Sept?

One may vote a new contract within a month, the other one will eventually get one...

Iíll second the majorities opinion - go to Spirit and if you like JB better give NK two weeks notice when JB is a real, and not just a hypothetical, option.

But whatís your final goal? NK or JB and done? Or a Big 3 job? Do you have any 121 PIC time? How much? If the answer is none, or very little, and a Big 3 job is your final destination Iíd wait for the upgrade, get 1000 hrs 121 TPIC, and if a CKA slot isnít in the horizon Iíd switch to NK/JB at that time.

Years ago TPIC was the only minimum standard they wouldnít waive. They did in a few cases and had a high number of washouts.

Bluedriver
02-17-2018, 06:30 AM
Incorrect on many grounds. Fiduciary law is not to shareholders, it's to do things in the best interest of the company. Please see my posting https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/111495-myth-fiduciary-responsibility.html and read the law for yourself.

Secondly, those bankruptcies were not caused by companies paying per the actual cost of doing business. Bankruptcy is the new management 101 technique of restructuring. They are merely playing the MBA game.

How soon we forget.

WhistlePig
02-18-2018, 03:59 AM
Incorrect on many grounds. Fiduciary law is not to shareholders, it's to do things in the best interest of the company. Please see my posting https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/111495-myth-fiduciary-responsibility.html and read the law for yourself.

Secondly, those bankruptcies were not caused by companies paying per the actual cost of doing business. Bankruptcy is the new management 101 technique of restructuring. They are merely playing the MBA game.

I know the law, I've read the law, and I've practiced at the State and Federal level. If you are not a lawyer then you are confusing terms of art and misdefining words that have specific meanings in legal context. I guarantee it.

Your article was an over-simplified, aspirational opinion piece, not based on relevant case law. For instance, a private company that can pick its shareholders has a much better chance of running a business that places the primary fiduciary interest on the employees. We are not a private company. It made me feel good though.

Regarding bankruptcies, my point was that the bankruptcies were a tool to reduce costs, the highest costs were pension obligations. The "MBA game" is how you run a business.

To an earlier pig that was singing out of tune: The company spinning it's decisions any way they want is not the same thing as its fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. Spinning is public messaging, nothing more.

Bluedriver
02-18-2018, 05:59 AM
I know the law, I've read the law, and I've practiced at the State and Federal level. If you are not a lawyer then you are confusing terms of art and misdefining words that have specific meanings in legal context. I guarantee it.

Your article was an over-simplified, aspirational opinion piece, not based on relevant case law. For instance, a private company that can pick its shareholders has a much better chance of running a business that places the primary fiduciary interest on the employees. We are not a private company. It made me feel good though.

Regarding bankruptcies, my point was that the bankruptcies were a tool to reduce costs, the highest costs were pension obligations. The "MBA game" is how you run a business.

To an earlier pig that was singing out of tune: The company spinning it's decisions any way they want is not the same thing as its fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. Spinning is public messaging, nothing more.

To the extent that you are correct, a distinction needs to be made between what's best for the share holder and what's best for the *next quarterly stock report*.

Paying the employees McDonald's wages is not required to meet the "best for the shareholder" standard, to the extent that it exists. Especially when it results in operational problems, low employee morale and poor service. There are many examples of publicly traded companies, who don't "pick" their shareholders that pay industry top pay.

We have the highest profit margins (trade places back and forth with a few other companies) in the industry. No excuses.

BeatNavy
02-18-2018, 06:52 AM
I know the law, I've read the law, and I've practiced at the State and Federal level. If you are not a lawyer then you are confusing terms of art and misdefining words that have specific meanings in legal context. I guarantee it.

Your article was an over-simplified, aspirational opinion piece, not based on relevant case law. For instance, a private company that can pick its shareholders has a much better chance of running a business that places the primary fiduciary interest on the employees. We are not a private company. It made me feel good though.

Regarding bankruptcies, my point was that the bankruptcies were a tool to reduce costs, the highest costs were pension obligations. The "MBA game" is how you run a business.

To an earlier pig that was singing out of tune: The company spinning it's decisions any way they want is not the same thing as its fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. Spinning is public messaging, nothing more.

There is no law requiring an employer, public or private, to pay less than market rate wages. There is also no law prohibiting an employer from paying employees higher than market rate. It happens all the time, with public and private companies.

What kind of law did you practice? For how long? Just curious.

queue
02-18-2018, 07:00 AM
I know the law, I've read the law, and I've practiced at the State and Federal level. If you are not a lawyer then you are confusing terms of art and misdefining words that have specific meanings in legal context. I guarantee it.

Your article was an over-simplified, aspirational opinion piece, not based on relevant case law. For instance, a private company that can pick its shareholders has a much better chance of running a business that places the primary fiduciary interest on the employees. We are not a private company. It made me feel good though.

Regarding bankruptcies, my point was that the bankruptcies were a tool to reduce costs, the highest costs were pension obligations. The "MBA game" is how you run a business.

To an earlier pig that was singing out of tune: The company spinning it's decisions any way they want is not the same thing as its fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. Spinning is public messaging, nothing more.


Case law on the fiduciary duty of directors to maximize the wealth of corporate shareholders
In the introductory post to this series (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/the-vacuity-of-corporate-purpose.html), I posited that the relevant question when it comes to the law governing the ends of corporate governance is not "what is the corporate purpose" but rather "have the directors or officers violated their fiduciary duties by preferring the interests of one set of stakeholders over those of other sets?"
Despite the obvious centrality of this problem to the operation of business corporations, there are surprisingly few authoritative precedents on point. The lawís basic position on corporate social responsibility famously was articulated in Dodge v. Ford Motor Co.[1] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn1) In 1916, Henry Ford owned 58% of the stock of Ford Motor Co. The Dodge brothers owned 10%. The remainder was owned by five other individuals. Beginning in 1908, Ford Motor paid a regular annual dividend of $1.2 million. Between 1911 and 1915 Ford Motor also regularly paid huge ďspecial dividends,Ē totaling over $40 million. In 1916, Henry Ford announced that the company would stop paying special dividends. Instead, the firmís financial resources would be devoted to expanding its business. Ford also continued the companyís policy of lowering prices, while improving quality. The Dodge brothers sued, asking the court to order Ford Motor to resume paying the special dividends and to enjoin the proposed expansion of the firmís operations. At trial, Ford testified to his belief that the company made too much money and had an obligation to benefit the public and the firmís workers and customers.
The plaintiff Dodge brothers contended an improper altruism[2] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn2) towards his workers and customers motivated Ford. The court agreed, strongly rebuking Ford:
A business corporation is organized and carried on primarily for the profit of the stockholders. The powers of the directors are to be employed for that end. The discretion of directors is to be exercised in the choice of means to attain that end, and does not extend to a change in the end itself, to the reduction of profits, or to the nondistribution of profits among stockholders in order to devote them to other purposes.[3] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn3)
Consequently, ďit is not within the lawful powers of a board of directors to shape and conduct the affairs of a corporation for the merely incidental benefit of shareholders and for the primary purpose of benefiting others.Ē
Despite its strong rhetoric, Dodge does not stand for the proposition that directors will be held liable for considering the social consequences of corporate actions. To be sure, having found that Ford had failed to pursue shareholder wealth maximization, the court ordered Ford Motor to resume paying its substantial special dividends. Invoking the business judgment rule, however, the Dodge court declined to interfere with Fordís plans for expansion and dismissed the bulk of plaintiffís complaint. Recall the distinction between standards of review and of conduct. The shareholder wealth maximization norm set forth in Dodge is a standard of conduct, but the business judgment rule remains the standard of review. Consequently, Dodge does not stand for the proposition that courts will closely supervise the conduct of corporate directors to ensure that every decision maximizes shareholder wealth. As the courtís refusal to enjoin Ford Motorís proposed expansion illustrates, courts generally will not substitute their judgment for that of the board of directors. If a proposed course of action plausibly relates to long-term shareholder wealth maximization, courts will not intervene. Fordís proposed expansion plans did so, and thus were allowed to go forward. Fordís refusal to pay a special dividend, while simultaneously lowering prices, compounded by his anti-profitmaking trial testimony, did not. Accordingly, the court ordered him to pay the requested dividend. As always, authority and accountability are in tension. In my work on director primacy, I have consistently argued that, absent self-dealing or other unusual circumstances, authority should prevail. Fordís conduct lay at the outer boundary of defensible exercises of authority and the court appropriately slapped his wrist.[4] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn4)
As the law evolved, corporate altruism began to be seen as proper so long as it was likely to provide direct benefits to the corporation and its shareholders. Applying the business judgment rule, moreover, many courts essentially presumed that an altruistic decision was in the corporationís best interests. Shlensky v. Wrigley[5] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn5) exemplifies this approach. Shlensky, a minority shareholder in the Chicago Cubs, challenged the decision by Wrigley, the majority shareholder, not to install lights at Wrigley Field. Shlensky claimed the Cubs were persistent money losers, which he attributed to poor home attendance, which in turn he attributed to the boardís refusal to install lights and play night baseball. According to Shlensky, Wrigley was indifferent to the effect of his continued intransigence on the teamís finances. Instead, Shlensky argued, Wrigley was motivated by his beliefs that baseball was a day-time sport and that night baseball might have a deteriorating effect on the neighborhood surrounding Wrigley Field.
Despite Shlenskyís apparently uncontested evidence that Wrigley was more concerned with interests other than those of the shareholders, the court did not even allow him to get up to bat. Instead, the court presumed that Wrigleyís decision was in the firmís best interests. Indeed, the court basically invented reasons why a director might have made an honest decision against night baseball. The court opined, for example, ďthe effect on the surrounding neighborhood might well be considered by a director.Ē[6] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn6) Again, the court said: ďthe long run interestĒ of the firm ďmight demandĒ protection of the neighborhood. Accordingly, Shlenskyís case was dismissed for failure to state a claim upon which relief could be granted.
The rhetorical emphasis shifted significantly between Dodge and Shlensky. Where Dodgeemphasized the directorsí duty to maximize profits, Shlensky emphasized the directorsí authority and discretion. Ultimately, however, they are consistent. The Illinois Appellate Court did not reject the profit-maximizing norm laid down by Dodge, but rather followed Dodge in holding that the business judgment rule immunized the directorsí decision from judicial review.
To be sure, a few cases posit that directors need not treat shareholder wealth maximization as their sole guiding star. A. P. Smith Manufacturing Co. v. Barlow, the most frequently cited example, upheld a corporate charitable donation on the ground, inter alia, that ďmodern conditions require that corporations acknowledge and discharge social as well as private responsibilities as members of the communities within which they operate.Ē[7] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn7) Ultimately, however, the differences between Barlow and Dodge have little more than symbolic import. As the Barlow court recognized, shareholdersí long-run interests are often served by decisions (such as charitable giving) that appear harmful in the short-run. Because the court acknowledged that the challenged contribution thus could be justified on profit-maximizing grounds, its broader language on corporate social responsibility is arguably mere dictum.
In any event, Dodgeís theory of shareholder wealth maximization has been widely accepted by courts over an extended period of time. Almost three quarters of a century after Dodge, the Delaware chancery court similarly opined: ďIt is the obligation of directors to attempt, within the law, to maximize the long-run interests of the corporationís stockholders.Ē[8] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn8)
In sum, the law governing operational decisions has a somewhat schizophrenic feel. In most jurisdictions, courts will exhort directors to use their best efforts to maximize shareholder wealth. In a few, courts may exhort directors to consider the corporationís social responsibility. In either case, however, the announced principle is no more than an exhortation. The court may hold forth on the primacy of shareholder interests, or may hold forth on the importance of socially responsible conduct, but ultimately it does not matter. Under either approach, directors who consider nonshareholder interests in making corporate decisions, like directors who do not, will be insulated from liability by the business judgment rule.[9] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftn9)
The proposition that corporate directors should not be held liable for allegedly considering the effects of their decisions on nonshareholder constituencies and interests follows directly from the director primacy theory of the firm. As we have seen, authority and accountability are in constant tension. With respect to operational decisions, authority appropriately prevails. Sometimes consideration of nonshareholder interests is consistent with long-term shareholder interests, and sometimes it is not. In all operational cases, however, deciding whether nonshareholder interests are congruent with shareholder interests is a question for the board of directors. Courts therefore properly invoke the business judgment rule to insulate such decisions from review.
For more on that argument, see my book The New Corporate Governance in Theory and Practice (http://astore.amazon.com/corporatilawa-20/detail/0195337506).

[1] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref1) 170 N.W. 668 (Mich. 1919). For my critique of an interesting reinterpretation of Dodge, which argues that the shareholder wealth maximization norm originated as a means for resolving disputes among majority and minority shareholders in closely held corporations, see my post Is Dodge v Ford Motor Company a close corporation/controlling shareholder case? (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/is-dodge-v-ford-motor-company-a-close-corporationcontrolling-shareholder-case.html)
[2] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref2) The term altruism is used herein to describe any decision motivated by considerations other than shareholder wealth maximization. It thus includes, but also is much broader than, the special case of corporate philanthropy.
[3] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref3) Dodge v. Ford Motor Co., 170 N.W. 668, 684 (Mich. 1919). Despite its strong emphasis on the boardís obligation to pursue shareholder interests, the court recognized that, in many situations, ethical or humanitarian considerations are wholly consistent with long-term shareholder wealth maximization. Providing health care to employees costs money in the short-run, for example, but in the long-run healthy employees with high morale may be more productive. A board of directors thus may decide to incur such short-run costs in order to reap long-term gains without fear of liability: ďThe difference between an incidental humanitarian expenditure of corporate funds for the benefit of the employees, like the building of a hospital for their use and the employment of agencies for the betterment of their condition, and a general purpose and plan to benefit mankind at the expense of others, is obvious.Ē
[4] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref4) One can plausibly argue that Fordís seemingly altruistic conduct in fact was a shrewd and ruthless attempt to stifle competition. In addition to being shareholders of Ford Motor Co., the Dodge brothers were also competitors. They founded the business that is now the Dodge brand of DaimlerChrysler. Their likely goal for this litigation was not only restoration of the special dividends, which they needed to finance their competing business, but also to prevent Ford from expanding capacity. Fordís decisions effectively cut the Dodge Brothers off at the knees. The brothers had a large investment in Ford Motor Co. stock, which was producing minimal returns (absent the special dividends). Cancellation of those dividends would help fund expansion of the brothersí main competitor. If so, however, why didnít Ford explain all this to the court? Perhaps he feared antitrust litigation or perhaps he simply didnít want to look like a robber baron.
[5] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref5) 237 N.E.2d 776 (Ill. App. 1968), see ß ___. Accord Ella M. Kelly & Wyndham, Inc. v. Bell, 266 A.2d 878, 879 (Del. 1970); Union Pac. R.R. Co. v. Trustees, Inc., 329 P.2d 398, 401-02 (Utah 1958).
[6] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref6) Shlensky v. Wrigley, 237 N.E.2d 776, 780 (Ill. App. 1968).
[7] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref7) A. P. Smith Mfg. Co. v. Barlow, 98 A.2d 581, 586 (N.J. 1953). See also Theodora Holding Corp. v. Henderson, 257 A.2d 398, 404 (Del. Ch. 1969) (opining that corporate social responsibility is a desirable goal).
[8] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref8) Katz v. Oak Indus., Inc., 508 A.2d 873, 879 (Del. Ch. 1986). In Long v. Norwood Hills Corp., 380 S.W.2d 451 (Mo. Ct. App. 1964), the court observed: ďPlaintiff cites many authorities [including Dodge] to show that the ultimate object of every ordinary trading corporation is the pecuniary gain of its stockholders and that it is for this purpose the capital has been advanced.Ē Id. at 476. The court further stated that it had ďno quarrel with plaintiff insofar as the rules of law stated therein govern the actions of majority stockholders and the boards of directors of corporations.Ē Id.
[9] (http://www.professorbainbridge.com/professorbainbridgecom/2012/05/case-law-on-the-fiduciary-duty-of-directors-to-maximize-the-wealth-of-corporate-shareholders.html#_ftnref9) The principal exception to this rule is where directors rely on nonshareholder interests to justify takeover defenses, which do not necessarily get business judgment rule protection.

Referencing the above, it's in the best long term interest of the Shareholders to have positive and productive employee/management relationships. AA's CEO just did that, or at least that's what they publicly claimed.

And no... the MBA game is not the *only* way to run a business. You can also be principled first. Many successful corporations are run that way. JB *chooses* their decisions.

blueballs
02-18-2018, 08:31 AM
https://www.comparably.com/companies/jetblue-airways/reviews

Bluedriver
02-18-2018, 08:58 AM
https://www.comparably.com/companies/jetblue-airways/reviews

Truth hurts.

WhistlePig
02-19-2018, 04:41 AM
Case law is not The Bible. You can't pull quotes out of context to support whatever position you happen to support. The article had a lot of words, you also can't just throw a bunch of words at something and hope something sticks, but it conflates dicta with the holding in each case, or worse, took dicta from one case to counter the holding in another. You'd get shot out of court in a cannon for doing that in a brief.

WhistlePig
02-19-2018, 04:42 AM
There is no law requiring an employer, public or private, to pay less than market rate wages. There is also no law prohibiting an employer from paying employees higher than market rate. It happens all the time, with public and private companies.

What kind of law did you practice? For how long? Just curious.

Long enough to competent, current, and proficient.

WhistlePig
02-19-2018, 04:53 AM
My opinion only: Blue should compensate the pilots at market rate with improved work rules, improved incentive pay, and trip and duty rigs that encourage efficient scheduling. They should accept the FA union if that happens and work in good faith as well. They should do it soon so as to not risk eroding morale and good will to a point that it would be unrecoverable, no matter what contract is offered.

hilltopflyer
02-19-2018, 05:15 AM
My opinion only: Blue should compensate the pilots at market rate with improved work rules, improved incentive pay, and trip and duty rigs that encourage efficient scheduling. They should accept the FA union if that happens and work in good faith as well. They should do it soon so as to not risk eroding morale and good will to a point that it would be unrecoverable, no matter what contract is offered.

Agreed with you here

queue
02-19-2018, 05:45 AM
Case law is not The Bible. You can't pull quotes out of context to support whatever position you happen to support. The article had a lot of words, you also can't just throw a bunch of words at something and hope something sticks, but it conflates dicta with the holding in each case, or worse, took dicta from one case to counter the holding in another. You'd get shot out of court in a cannon for doing that in a brief.

Ok Mr. Public Defender. I gave you case law. You gave me sound bites. You know very well the length of the narrative was not for a court brief but rather to explain it here.

Even more importantly, it sounds like you are just a defeatist. If you have any law experience, you know very well that new case law is made every day and that you should never self-defeat. Has a client ever retained you only to have you tell them they had no chance in court? What kind of advocate would you be? Case law on this is wide open for future cases beneficial to our cause. From what I provided, it's legally clear that it is not illegal for a CEO to act in the best interest of the company (e.g. attracting the best talent by paying accordingly).

My intent in bringing up this point is not to accept MBA-101 talking points without challenging them. Pilots tend to be sheep and I don't like that. It's the reason we are the most disrespected professional group on the planet. Well, that and your attitude of defeatism. Maybe you should lend your 'expertise' in a productive way. My point is to highlight that we are constantly told half-truths or outright lies. In case you hadn't noticed, BJ makes every decision with legal ruthlessness. We must make the law work for our cause.

queue
02-19-2018, 05:56 AM
They should do it soon so as to not risk eroding morale and good will to a point that it would be unrecoverable, no matter what contract is offered.

And... BJ needs to understand that getting to an unrecoverable Mach Tuck scenario is a very real possibility. Up till now every single ALPA effort has been waged using Vietnam style hill conquers followed by retreats. Use of force is used only to sufficient magnitude to bring negotiations back to the table (Linebacker I & II). How well did this work for us in 'Nam and how well has it worked industry-wide?

What we really need is the equivalent of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Shock and Awe, etc. We need overwhelming victory against the paradigm.

History has taught us only one thing: airlines will only do the bare minimum. If we don't make it too expensive for them politically, legally, monetarily, and intangible, then we will not get an acceptable contract. More importantly, we will fail to be a market force to be reckoned with. We must be respected and paid what we are worth. Or else, our industry will never improve.

WhistlePig
02-19-2018, 06:16 AM
And... BJ needs to understand that getting to an unrecoverable Mach Tuck scenario is a very real possibility. Up till now every single ALPA effort has been waged using Vietnam style hill conquers followed by retreats. Use of force is used only to sufficient magnitude to bring negotiations back to the table (Linebacker I & II). How well did this work for us in 'Nam and how well has it worked industry-wide?

What we really need is the equivalent of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Shock and Awe, etc. We need overwhelming victory against the paradigm.

History has taught us only one thing: airlines will only do the bare minimum. If we don't make it too expensive for them politically, legally, monetarily, and intangible, then we will not get an acceptable contract. More importantly, we will fail to be a market force to be reckoned with. We must be respected and paid what we are worth. Or else, our industry will never improve.

Now there is an analogy I can get behind.

ScoobyDooo
02-27-2018, 04:08 AM
Our only negotiating capital is our willingness to walk. I will vote no until they bring me a market rate contract. Period. We may need to shut this place down for a while just to knock the arrogance out of this ELT. Be ready and prepare your finances.

Good luck but lets be realistic. There isnt a situation in the entire world where you will be allowed to legally "Walk".........................

CaptCoolHand
02-27-2018, 11:46 AM
Good luck but lets be realistic. There isnt a situation in the entire world where you will be allowed to legally "Walk".........................

What world do you live in?

It may not happen often, but it can happen. Most recently Spirit, and ComAir before them. Be prepared for it.

WhistlePig
02-27-2018, 12:10 PM
What world do you live in?

It may not happen often, but it can happen. Most recently Spirit, and ComAir before them. Be prepared for it.

There is no way to prepare for it on first year pay.

Bluedriver
02-27-2018, 12:16 PM
There is no way to prepare for it on first year pay.

First year pay has come way up, 80 bucks an hour ain't chump change dude! Oh, you mean at JB, yeah, good luck with that!

PasserOGas
02-27-2018, 12:20 PM
First year pay has come way up, 80 bucks an hour ain't chump change dude! Oh, you mean at JB, yeah, good luck with that!

What do you mean? You can drive for Uber during the strike and make almost as much as our year 1 guys.

WhistlePig
02-27-2018, 12:47 PM
What do you mean? You can drive for Uber during the strike and make almost as much as our year 1 guys.

Or just go somewhere else that has a contract and livable wages

Bluedriver
02-27-2018, 12:57 PM
You guys are very negative. And contrary to Fake News reports, I *AGREE* with both of you. But I'm having trouble figuring out if your posts are positive or negative. This is all very confusing.

Southerner
02-27-2018, 03:51 PM
You guys are very negative. And contrary to Fake News reports, I *AGREE* with both of you. But I'm having trouble figuring out if your posts are positive or negative. This is all very confusing.

You do have a hard time comprehending the English language, so I'm not surprised that you are confused.

Isaiah4031
02-28-2018, 06:44 AM
Spirit's Vote passed 70% !!

Xtreme87
02-28-2018, 07:00 AM
Spirit's Vote passed 70% !!

Itís official, we are the 2nd lowest paid Airbus pilots in the US.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 07:30 AM
You do have a hard time comprehending the English language, so I'm not surprised that you are confused.

We doing this all over again pumpkin?

Southerner
02-28-2018, 09:01 AM
We doing this all over again pumpkin?

It is good for you to have a reminder every so often.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 09:15 AM
It is good for you to have a reminder every so often.

Um, I shoved you down your hole pretty good the last time we did this, so give me some new material to work with. Tell me again about how you evaluate the world and our circumstances better than most people again. Or find another way to make a complete a** of yourself.

I'm open to either.

BeatNavy
02-28-2018, 09:20 AM
It is good for you to have a reminder every so often.

Speaking of reminders, let me remind you how you are defying the union and working against our pilot group and our CBA by not wearing a lanyard and following union guidance.

Southerner
02-28-2018, 09:24 AM
Speaking of reminders, let me remind you how you are defying the union and working against our pilot group and our CBA by not wearing a lanyard and following union guidance.

Yep. I'm fully aware that I don't have a lanyard. Thanks!

Southerner
02-28-2018, 09:25 AM
Um, I shoved you down your hole pretty good the last time we did this, so give me some new material to work with. Tell me again about how you evaluate the world and our circumstances better than most people again. Or find another way to make a complete a** of yourself.

I'm open to either.

You live in fantasy land, little man...

BeatNavy
02-28-2018, 09:30 AM
Yep. I'm fully aware that I don't have a lanyard. Thanks!

Werenít you just speaking about reading comprehension? I wasnít reminding you that you donít wear a lanyard. I reminded you that you are actively defying the union and working against our pilot group. See the difference?

Southerner
02-28-2018, 09:38 AM
Werenít you just speaking about reading comprehension? I wasnít reminding you that you donít wear a lanyard. I reminded you that you are actively defying the union and working against our pilot group. See the difference?

I understand that you have an axe to grind.

BeatNavy
02-28-2018, 09:47 AM
I understand that you have an axe to grind.

No axes to grind here. Just want the best for my fellow pilots as well as my family and me.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 09:50 AM
You live in fantasy land, little man...

I noticed you kept that retort short (delusional, but short). Very wise decision.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 09:51 AM
No axes to grind here. Just want the best for my fellow pilots as well as my family and me.

I *AGREE* completely with this man's line of commentary.

Southerner
02-28-2018, 09:52 AM
I noticed you kept that retort short (delusional, but short). Very wise decision.

I'm just busy and have better things to do than argue with a moron.

Final Clear
02-28-2018, 09:58 AM
I'm just busy and have better things to do than argue with a moron.

...like pick up an RSA or VDA...

FC

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 10:04 AM
It is good for you to have a reminder every so often.

Busy, no sir, you said right here you were going to give me a reminder.

But I'm going to need a little more than a few delusional tough guy 1s and 0s to work with if you're going to give me that reminder pumpkin.

Get back in your hole if that's all you've got.

slimothy
02-28-2018, 10:13 AM
I'm just busy and have better things to do than argue with a moron.

Yet you persist.

Southerner
02-28-2018, 10:16 AM
Yet you persist.

It's too much fun. I just can't leave him alone completely.

Southerner
02-28-2018, 10:17 AM
Busy, no sir, you said right here you were going to give me a reminder.

But I'm going to need a little more than a few delusional tough guy 1s and 0s to work with if you're going to give me that reminder pumpkin.

Get back in your hole if that's all you've got.

Yet another example of your lack of comprehension... Poor kid.

Final Clear
02-28-2018, 10:18 AM
Yet another example of your lack of comprehension... Poor kid.

Bandwagon...is that you?

FC

Combatcraig
02-28-2018, 11:05 AM
Speaking of reminders, let me remind you how you are defying the union and working against our pilot group and our CBA by not wearing a lanyard and following union guidance.

Heís far from the only one, unfortunately... Commuted home a few days ago and the goofball, non lanyard wearing FO did a standup. Hope the CA educated him.

queue
02-28-2018, 11:54 AM
Heís far from the only one, unfortunately... Commuted home a few days ago and the goofball, non lanyard wearing FO did a standup. Hope the CA educated him.

Legally speaking, what can a union member do to educate the brother? I wouldnít want that CA being called in. What are the options?

Xtreme87
02-28-2018, 12:06 PM
Legally speaking, what can a union member do to educate the brother? I wouldnít want that CA being called in. What are the options?

Not sure if standup PAís are part of SOP, are you sure they arenít distracting you from your preflight prep?

Canít get called in for telling somebody to fly SOP.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 12:25 PM
Yet another example of your lack of comprehension... Poor kid.

Sorry guys, here we go again...

Ok Pumpkin, now we've got something to work with.

The subject (accusation) from SouthernRumpPlug is that I have trouble with reading and comprehending the English language.

Let's put that to the test, again, I know how excited you all must be that Southern brought it up again.

Southerner's accusation:

You do have a hard time comprehending the English language, so I'm not surprised that you are confused.

My inquiry to Southerner in response to his accusation:

We doing this all over again pumpkin?

In my response, I clearly ask RumpPlug if we are "doing this all over again". This phrase asks, clearly, if myself and Southerner are going to actively engage in another debate about my ability to read and comprehend the English language. Again (sorry, he must be shoved back down his hole).

Southerner's direct reply to my question asking if we are "doing this all over again":

It is good for you to have a reminder every so often.

This phrase must be interpreted as an affirmative. The opening term "It" is referring to the debate with respect to my ability to read and comprehend the English language. He also clearly gives me a reason why this debate is necessary, "*It*" "* is good for you to have a reminder every so often*". He means a "reminder" about how I struggle with reading and comprehending the English language.

I ask him to begin:

Um, I shoved you down your hole pretty good the last time we did this, so give me some new material to work with. Tell me again about how you evaluate the world and our circumstances better than most people again. Or find another way to make a complete a** of yourself.

I'm open to either.

He deflects:

You live in fantasy land, little man...

I point out his deflection and challenge him again to give me the debate ("It") and the "reminder" he said would be good for me every so often:

I noticed you kept that retort short (delusional, but short). Very wise decision.

After committing to me that we are "doing it all over again" because "It" is "good for you to have a reminder every so often":

I'm just busy and have better things to do than argue with a moron.

Busy:

Busy, no sir, you said right here you were going to give me a reminder.

But I'm going to need a little more than a few delusional tough guy 1s and 0s to work with if you're going to give me that reminder pumpkin.

Get back in your hole if that's all you've got.

Southerner:

Yet another example of your lack of comprehension... Poor kid.

No B-Plug, you said we were "doing this all over again" and then you remembered there is nothing more than a shriveled flower where your manhood was supposed to be, and backed out saying you were busy.

Every time you crawl out of your little dark hole and address me I'm going to shove your own words right back up your Rump Plug and send you right back down your hole. Your childish refusal to simply wear our unions lanyard and your incessant pattern of pro-company and anti-discontent messages definitely show you are pulling on the wrong end of the rope.

Go on back down now.

Southerner
02-28-2018, 03:07 PM
Wow, what an idiot. You really are good at demonstrating how insecure you are.

BeatNavy
02-28-2018, 03:20 PM
Wow, what an idiot. You really are good at demonstrating how insecure you are.

That’s rich. You've used the words “idiot,” “little man,” and “moron” derogatorily today, yet you are the one working against yourself and the rest of us by not wearing a lanyard.

Southerner
02-28-2018, 03:48 PM
That’s rich. You've used the words “idiot,” “little man,” and “moron” derogatorily today, yet you are the one working against yourself and the rest of us by not wearing a lanyard.

Good. I'm glad my intent was clear with my language. (Derogatory intent)

yayairplanes
02-28-2018, 03:57 PM
You seem like a bad person

Southerner
02-28-2018, 04:00 PM
You seem like a bad person

Nah, I'm a nice guy. I just REALLY dislike jerks, and he is a monumental jerk who shouts everyone down, refuses to understand that there are more points of view than his own, and is unwilling to attempt to look past his own position. So I take every opportunity to troll the ******* out of him.

Southerner
02-28-2018, 04:07 PM
For the record, I made the offer to him for us to just ignore each other, but he declined because he can't help but be a jackwagon. So, game on.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 06:05 PM
Wow, what an idiot. You really are good at demonstrating how insecure you are.

There you go, back down into your troll hole.

Southerner
02-28-2018, 06:08 PM
There you go, back down into your troll hole.

Negative.




..

Flyondawall
02-28-2018, 06:10 PM
Sorry guys, here we go again...

Ok Pumpkin, now we've got something to work with.

The subject (accusation) from SouthernRumpPlug is that I have trouble with reading and comprehending the English language.

Let's put that to the test, again, I know how excited you all must be that Southern brought it up again.

Southerner's accusation:



My inquiry to Southerner in response to his accusation:



In my response, I clearly ask RumpPlug if we are "doing this all over again". This phrase asks, clearly, if myself and Southerner are going to actively engage in another debate about my ability to read and comprehend the English language. Again (sorry, he must be shoved back down his hole).

Southerner's direct reply to my question asking if we are "doing this all over again":



This phrase must be interpreted as an affirmative. The opening term "It" is referring to the debate with respect to my ability to read and comprehend the English language. He also clearly gives me a reason why this debate is necessary, "*It*" "* is good for you to have a reminder every so often*". He means a "reminder" about how I struggle with reading and comprehending the English language.

I ask him to begin:



He deflects:



I point out his deflection and challenge him again to give me the debate ("It") and the "reminder" he said would be good for me every so often:



After committing to me that we are "doing it all over again" because "It" is "good for you to have a reminder every so often":



Busy:



Southerner:



No B-Plug, you said we were "doing this all over again" and then you remembered there is nothing more than a shriveled flower where your manhood was supposed to be, and backed out saying you were busy.

Every time you crawl out of your little dark hole and address me I'm going to shove your own words right back up your Rump Plug and send you right back down your hole. Your childish refusal to simply wear our unions lanyard and your incessant pattern of pro-company and anti-discontent messages definitely show you are pulling on the wrong end of the rope.

Go on back down now.

Wow, first I felt kinda sorry for you, or maybe sad that you really have nothing else to do but sit and defend yourself as keyboard warrior.
Then I just figured out I wasted 3 mins of my life Iíll never get back reading this garbage.
Get a life dude.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 06:10 PM
For the record, I made the offer to him for us to just ignore each other, but he declined because he can't help but be a jackwagon. So, game on.

Game on? You agreed to give me a "reminder" lesson and then cowed back into your hole saying "busy" even faster than I thought you would.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 06:12 PM
Wow, first I felt kinda sorry for you, or maybe sad that you really have nothing else to do but sit and defend yourself as keyboard warrior.
Then I just figured out I wasted 3 mins of my life Iíll never get back reading this garbage.
Get a life dude.

We have history.

coopervane
02-28-2018, 10:45 PM
Youíre very negative.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 11:14 PM
Youíre very negative.

I *AGREE* with you.

😁

CaptCoolHand
03-01-2018, 03:39 AM
You guys know thereís an ignore list available on this thing?

Riverside
03-01-2018, 05:26 AM
You guys know thereís an ignore list available on this thing?

Well I guess he tried to do the reasonable thing.

For the record, I made the offer to him for us to just ignore each other, but he declined because he can't help but be a jackwagon. So, game on.

ReachHeavy
03-19-2019, 10:34 AM
Aside from the thread drift back and forth, whew that was some reading, now that both have new contracts/ta's etc.. Would there be any difference in the general consensus of the answer today to the OP question?

360KIAS
03-19-2019, 12:43 PM
Aside from the thread drift back and forth, whew that was some reading, now that both have new contracts/ta's etc.. Would there be any difference in the general consensus of the answer today to the OP question?

JB was the best fit for me. I am happy to call it my final career job. Nothing to argue for or against Spirit, I'm sure they are fine as well. But I'm staying at Blue.

seekingblue
03-19-2019, 12:50 PM
Aside from the thread drift back and forth, whew that was some reading, now that both have new contracts/ta's etc.. Would there be any difference in the general consensus of the answer today to the OP question?

Both are fine places to end up. Just all depends where you live and where you would like to live.

disenchantMINT
03-20-2019, 02:53 AM
Both are fine places to end up. Just all depends where you live and where you would like to live.

https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8967215616/hC8A76DF6/

seekingblue
03-20-2019, 05:25 AM
https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8967215616/hC8A76DF6/

LOL.

If he said JetBlue vs. UAL, AA, or delta Iíd tell him to go there. But career expections should be about the same at blue vs Spirit. I think he should base the choice on where he lives.

jtrain609
03-20-2019, 05:35 AM
https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8967215616/hC8A76DF6/

https://youtu.be/YYa6Vjtr_5Q

Bluedriver
03-20-2019, 06:14 AM
https://youtu.be/YYa6Vjtr_5Q

For a "pilot", you seem to care most about strange things (customer service failures at UAL and Spirit) while caring very little about things pilots usually are concerned about like pay, benefits, profit sharing, seniority movement, total career value and /or operational excellence.

This, and that post you made hinting you'd rather not be merged into UALs CBA, fleet, seniority retirements, etc because they were meany meany to that doctor who wouldn't give up his seat on an oversold flight.

Bozo the pilot
03-21-2019, 01:28 PM
LOL.

If he said JetBlue vs. UAL, AA, or delta Iíd tell him to go there. But career expections should be about the same at blue vs Spirit. I think he should base the choice on where he lives.

MINT is a miserable guy who loves company.
However..
Both B6 and Spirit are fake "majors" and although Im generally a happy guy, B6 management has a way of converting the most sane, happy man into a person like disenchantMINT.

pilotpayne
03-21-2019, 01:43 PM
MINT is a miserable guy who loves company.
However..
Both B6 and Spirit are fake "majors" and although Im generally a happy guy, B6 management has a way of converting the most sane, happy man into a person like disenchantMINT.


Thatís true.

disenchantMINT
03-22-2019, 10:21 AM
MINT is a miserable guy who loves company.
However..
Both B6 and Spirit are fake "majors" and although Im generally a happy guy, B6 management has a way of converting the most sane, happy man into a person like disenchantMINT.

Maybe it's you who is the miserable one who just projects complacency with the lackluster conditions at B6 so you don't feel so miserable with your station in life?

Some of us want this place to become better. Then there's people like you who shout down or demean anyone who doesn't share your attitude. Maybe you don't want the outside world to think less of you because you're stuck here? I don't know.

I don't care what pilots at other airlines think because my happiness isn't dependent upon their approval. If enough of us call out the deficiencies and work toward improving them it'll eventually happen. You get to choose which end of the rope you're pulling on, and if it isn't our end it's Giggity's.

PS: It's sad you chose to ignore the tongue-in-cheek humor that was my post you responded to. I suppose miserable people have trouble with humor though.

HighFlight
03-22-2019, 11:54 AM
PS: It's sad you chose to ignore the tongue-in-cheek humor that was my post you responded to. I suppose miserable people have trouble with humor though.

Problem is, there is no tongue-in-cheek to your humor. In fact, there’s not really any humor in your “humor”.

JB isn’t perfect, but for those who are happy to work here, why do you find it necessary to try and bring them down to your level of unhappiness? Why not just do you and let them enjoy their jobs, if that’s how they view it?

Climbto450
03-22-2019, 01:46 PM
Maybe it's you who is the miserable one who just projects complacency with the lackluster conditions at B6 so you don't feel so miserable with your station in life?

Some of us want this place to become better. Then there's people like you who shout down or demean anyone who doesn't share your attitude. Maybe you don't want the outside world to think less of you because you're stuck here? I don't know.

I don't care what pilots at other airlines think because my happiness isn't dependent upon their approval. If enough of us call out the deficiencies and work toward improving them it'll eventually happen. You get to choose which end of the rope you're pulling on, and if it isn't our end it's Giggity's.

PS: It's sad you chose to ignore the tongue-in-cheek humor that was my post you responded to. I suppose miserable people have trouble with humor though.

Come on your at JB now we tend to push on rope not pull on it. I’ll continue to be be stuck here and be happy pushing on my rope. :-)

Bozo the pilot
03-22-2019, 03:34 PM
Maybe it's you who is the miserable one who just projects complacency with the lackluster conditions at B6 so you don't feel so miserable with your station in life?

Some of us want this place to become better. Then there's people like you who shout down or demean anyone who doesn't share your attitude. Maybe you don't want the outside world to think less of you because you're stuck here? I don't know.

I don't care what pilots at other airlines think because my happiness isn't dependent upon their approval. If enough of us call out the deficiencies and work toward improving them it'll eventually happen. You get to choose which end of the rope you're pulling on, and if it isn't our end it's Giggity's.

PS: It's sad you chose to ignore the tongue-in-cheek humor that was my post you responded to. I suppose miserable people have trouble with humor though.
Na- you are truly an unhappy person and it is reflected in your tone in each post. take some time off- it'll do you and your Capts good.
Peace Mint. :)

seekingblue
03-22-2019, 04:19 PM
Rhetorical question:

why are so many people so miserable on here? Is life at home that bad? JetBlue is far from perfect, but Iím not angry enough to quit (and neither are the complainers). If it ever got so bad that I hated it here, Iíd just quit. When Iím ****ed about coming to work here, I just call in sick and donít come. A good mental health day is good for everyone.

Life, much like this job, is what you make of it. Find your happy space, ***** infrequently (but when you have a valid complaint) and enjoy life. If you arenít enjoying you life for whatever reason (spouse, job, life circumstances) make a change.

Complaining will get you nowhere: Making changes in your life will.

Bluedriver
03-22-2019, 05:56 PM
And now we're back to the "let us just be happy at the bottom of our peer set" crowd again.

Triple face-palm.

seekingblue
03-22-2019, 06:11 PM
And now we're back to the "let us just be happy at the bottom of our peer set" crowd again.

Triple face-palm.

Iím sorry if thatís the way it came off.

Feel free to be unhappy about our pay and benefits. Iím ****ed about our profit sharing. I understood what I was voting for, but Iím ****ed how much money was used for stock but back, buying airplanes in cash, and other accounting measures to lower our profit sharing.

Iím saying, there are too many people whoís whole sense of worth is based on this job. Too many people who would be happier at a real mainline airline, but donít bother applying or interviewing. Too many people who sit here and *****, but donít both volunteering to make this place better.

360KIAS
03-22-2019, 07:18 PM
And now we're back to the "let us just be happy at the bottom of our peer set" crowd again.

Triple face-palm.

Perhaps you view yourself as the bottom of your peer set. And that is likely much of your problem on here.

I'm not at the bottom of anything. Well, except profit sharing. That's pretty low. What's worse to me, however, is how we let the company bamboozle us by saying we get 15% 401K contribution, yet 5% of our PS funds it. That's pure BS.

hilltopflyer
03-22-2019, 09:10 PM
Perhaps you view yourself as the bottom of your peer set. And that is likely much of your problem on here.

I'm not at the bottom of anything. Well, except profit sharing. That's pretty low. What's worse to me, however, is how we let the company bamboozle us by saying we get 15% 401K contribution, yet 5% of our PS funds it. That's pure BS.

I agree completely. Thatís complete bull crap and needs to get changed on the next cba

Bluedriver
03-23-2019, 06:43 AM
Iím sorry if thatís the way it came off.

Feel free to be unhappy about our pay and benefits. Iím ****ed about our profit sharing. I understood what I was voting for, but Iím ****ed how much money was used for stock but back, buying airplanes in cash, and other accounting measures to lower our profit sharing.

Iím saying, there are too many people whoís whole sense of worth is based on this job. Too many people who would be happier at a real mainline airline, but donít bother applying or interviewing. Too many people who sit here and *****, but donít both volunteering to make this place better.

You can't decide the actual quality of life or general life happiness, in any way, from someone's APC posts. Some believe the only way to get this group to stand up and expect parity is to get the group to fully see the existing realty and to finally see it as unacceptable, and post accordingly.

All this BS about "make a life change if you're so unhappy, I just choose to smile myself into believing JB has a comparable career value" is part of the reason JB pilots CBA is as substandard as it is. You have EXPECT more in order for the group to do what's necessary to achieve more.

My post wasn't entirely directed at you or your post, I know you are not entirely pleased with the status quo.

PasserOGas
03-23-2019, 11:18 AM
Perhaps you view yourself as the bottom of your peer set. And that is likely much of your problem on here.

I'm not at the bottom of anything. Well, except profit sharing. That's pretty low. What's worse to me, however, is how we let the company bamboozle us by saying we get 15% 401K contribution, yet 5% of our PS funds it. That's pure BS.

Also total compensation, work rules, career progression, toxic management. But yeah other than that you are near the top!

disenchantMINT
03-24-2019, 08:31 AM
Perhaps you view yourself as the bottom of your peer set. And that is likely much of your problem on here.

I'm not at the bottom of anything. Well, except profit sharing. That's pretty low.

Perhaps you view yourself as being in a lower-tier peer set if you don't think you're at the bottom.

At least it's better than Mesa, amirite?! :rolleyes:

When it comes to a holistic view of pay and benefits, we are at the bottom of our peer set. (UA/DL/AA/AS/WN)

360KIAS
03-24-2019, 09:48 AM
Perhaps you view yourself as being in a lower-tier peer set if you don't think you're at the bottom.

At least it's better than Mesa, amirite?! :rolleyes:

When it comes to a holistic view of pay and benefits, we are at the bottom of our peer set. (UA/DL/AA/AS/WN)

My peers are the people I work with at jetBlue. If I had wanted to work at DAL, I would have applied there, and then my peers would have been there.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you deserve what legacy pilots have achieved over the past 60 years. If that was you goal, to work for a legacy, then you messed up when you applied to B6. No one to blame but yourself.

At least you got one part right... we are better off than Mesa pilots. All regionals, actually.

Riddle me this, Batman; if JB is so terrible, and the legacies are so much better, then why aren't more pilots leaving JB for them?

Ted Striker
03-24-2019, 09:52 AM
My peers are the people I work with at jetBlue. If I had wanted to work at DAL, I would have applied there, and then my peers would have been there.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you deserve what legacy pilots have achieved over the past 60 years. If that was you goal, to work for a legacy, then you messed up when you applied to B6. No one to blame but yourself.

At least you got one part right... we are better off than Mesa pilots. All regionals, actually.

Riddle me this, Batman; if JB is so terrible, and the legacies are so much better, then why aren't more pilots leaving JB for them?

Wait ... What ????

This is probably one of the dumbest posts I've read on here in a while, and APC has been pretty bad the past few years.

360KIAS
03-24-2019, 09:53 AM
Wait ... What ????

This is probably one of the dumbest posts I've read on here in a while, and APC has been pretty bad the past few years.

Good for you.

hilltopflyer
03-24-2019, 09:55 AM
My peers are the people I work with at jetBlue. If I had wanted to work at DAL, I would have applied there, and then my peers would have been there.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you deserve what legacy pilots have achieved over the past 60 years. If that was you goal, to work for a legacy, then you messed up when you applied to B6. No one to blame but yourself.

At least you got one part right... we are better off than Mesa pilots. All regionals, actually.

Riddle me this, Batman; if JB is so terrible, and the legacies are so much better, then why aren't more pilots leaving JB for them?

No way you actually are a pilot at Jetblue. So dumb of a post.

disenchantMINT
03-24-2019, 10:01 AM
My peers are the people I work with at jetBlue. If I had wanted to work at DAL, I would have applied there, and then my peers would have been there.

Perhaps you should reflect on the definition of peer set, as used by both ALPA and JB (although JB, like yourself, thinks less of you so they include lower-tier airlines in the peer set).

I'm not even going to give the rest of your post the dignity of a reply.

Wait ... What ????

This is probably one of the dumbest posts I've read on here in a while, and APC has been pretty bad the past few years.

No way you actually are a pilot at Jetblue. So dumb of a post.

+1 x2

ShyGuy
03-24-2019, 11:13 AM
My peers are the people I work with at jetBlue. If I had wanted to work at DAL, I would have applied there, and then my peers would have been there.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you deserve what legacy pilots have achieved over the past 60 years. If that was you goal, to work for a legacy, then you messed up when you applied to B6. No one to blame but yourself.

At least you got one part right... we are better off than Mesa pilots. All regionals, actually.

Riddle me this, Batman; if JB is so terrible, and the legacies are so much better, then why aren't more pilots leaving JB for them?

The seniority system makes it hard to leave.

BeatNavy
03-24-2019, 11:16 AM
My peers are the people I work with at jetBlue. If I had wanted to work at DAL, I would have applied there, and then my peers would have been there.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you deserve what legacy pilots have achieved over the past 60 years. If that was you goal, to work for a legacy, then you messed up when you applied to B6. No one to blame but yourself.

At least you got one part right... we are better off than Mesa pilots. All regionals, actually.

Riddle me this, Batman; if JB is so terrible, and the legacies are so much better, then why aren't more pilots leaving JB for them?

Did I seriously just read this? There is no way you are a real pilot. If you are, you are everything that is wrong with our pilot group and this profession.

Also...length of a companyís existence is not a determining factor of an employeeís pay. And the union and the company have determined our peer set. Iíll give you a hint: check out the contract comparison guide. Every airline has one. You should probably familiarize yourself with this industry before you continue spewing so much garbage. Perhaps read flying the line 1/2.

Your naivety, ignorance, and lack of knowledge about this profession are evident. Itís too bad you didnít have good mentorship as you came into this profession. I urge you to seek it out.

Not even the union-busting lawyers Jetblue pays millions to would say our peers are ourselves and not the big 3/SWA/AA. You are grossly misinformed.

hilltopflyer
03-24-2019, 11:31 AM
Did I seriously just read this? There is no way you are a real pilot. If you are, you are everything that is wrong with our pilot group and this profession.

Also...length of a companyís existence is not a determining factor of an employeeís pay. And the union and the company have determined our peer set. Iíll give you a hint: check out the contract comparison guide. Every airline has one. You should probably familiarize yourself with this industry before you continue spewing so much garbage. Perhaps read flying the line 1/2.

Your naivety, ignorance, and lack of knowledge about this profession are evident. Itís too bad you didnít have good mentorship as you came into this profession. I urge you to seek it out.

Not even the union-busting lawyers Jetblue pays millions to would say our peers are ourselves and not the big 3/SWA/AA. You are grossly misinformed.

If he is a pilot here he has to be a former cape guy who is 24 years old.

360KIAS
03-24-2019, 11:58 AM
Also...length of a companyís existence is not a determining factor of an employeeís pay.



In Utopia, a watch company starting up in 2019 would pay their employees the same as Rolex does. But not in the world I am living in would that happen.

And even APC recognizes the difference, which is why one does not click on Legacy to get to the JB forum.

CaptCoolHand
03-24-2019, 12:05 PM
In Utopia, a watch company starting up in 2019 would pay their employees the same as Rolex does. But not in the world I am living in would that happen.

And even APC recognizes the difference, which is why one does not click on Legacy to get to the JB forum.

Oh god just stop man.

BeatNavy
03-24-2019, 12:39 PM
In Utopia, a watch company starting up in 2019 would pay their employees the same as Rolex does. But not in the world I am living in would that happen.

And even APC recognizes the difference, which is why one does not click on Legacy to get to the JB forum.

For a startup that is true. And that’s how jetblue was for a long time. Roll the dice with a startup, get in on the ground floor, get paid peanuts, then work toward a more mature contract. News flash: We aren’t a startup. We are 2 decades old. The startup days are over.

Also....Legacy = a company that existed before deregulation (I’m guessing you aren’t familiar with that term and that it happened long before you were born). That’s why you see Hawaiian and Alaska in there on APC. That is irrelevant to our bargaining power and our value as a pilot group. You may be confusing a “global, full service carrier” with the term “legacy.” We are approaching that type of airline with our mint offerings and continued international growth. Our fares also aren’t really lower than anyone else’s. We aren’t a ULCC. Our cost structure is not exactly in line with the ULCC/LCC model anymore. Pilot pay doesn’t have to be substandard for jetblue to be profitable. They never once claimed they couldn’t afford to pay us legacy pay in our negotiations. If you were around for that whole debacle you should know that, but I’m guessing you’re still too new.

If you’ve never heard the phrase “never miss a good opportunity to $TFU” when you are new, I’d offer that is one you should listen to.

Last, there is no legacy forum on APC...only a major forum. There’s a legacy profile page that has the few legacies....but again that’s irrelevant to the B6 CBA.

PotatoChip
03-24-2019, 01:07 PM
^^^^Aaaaammmen!^^^^^

CanoeBum
03-25-2019, 04:02 AM
In Utopia, a watch company starting up in 2019 would pay their employees the same as Rolex does. But not in the world I am living in would that happen.

And even APC recognizes the difference, which is why one does not click on Legacy to get to the JB forum.

Is that you Bandwagon?

disenchantMINT
03-25-2019, 10:48 AM
At this point I'm convinced 360 is a troll who has nothing better to do than get jollies from posting ridiculous things and watching people get all wound up.

The only other reasonable explanation is he's management OR relatively new to this industry, underqualified for a major airline job and is completely ignorant.

I hope he's a troll.

Cirrusly
03-25-2019, 12:51 PM
A Flight attendant told me that we are merging with Thomas cook airlines soÖ May want to stick around

Climbto450
03-25-2019, 02:49 PM
A Flight attendant told me that we are merging with Thomas cook airlines soÖ May want to stick around

There has been some discussion of that on the line we will see in early April :-)

CaptCoolHand
03-25-2019, 03:00 PM
A Flight attendant told me that we are merging with Thomas cook airlines soÖ May want to stick around

I know Iíve been wrong.... but thereís so much wrong with that I canít even begin.

Never happen. Ever.

Asset purchase? Maybe. Merger. Never.

Climbto450
03-25-2019, 03:18 PM
I know Iíve been wrong.... but thereís so much wrong with that I canít even begin.

Never happen. Ever.

Asset purchase? Maybe. Merger. Never.

Obviously no merger there a foreign carrier but asset purchase, stranger things have happened. Look at how Azul and TAP Portugal commingle their operations.. Sunwing and Tui are another example..

HighFlight
03-25-2019, 03:46 PM
At this point I'm convinced 360 is a troll who has nothing better to do than get jollies from posting ridiculous things and watching people get all wound up.

The only other reasonable explanation is he's management OR relatively new to this industry, underqualified for a major airline job and is completely ignorant.

I hope he's a troll.

Pretty ironic, you calling another poster a troll.

pilotpayne
03-25-2019, 06:49 PM
Obviously no merger there a foreign carrier but asset purchase, stranger things have happened. Look at how Azul and TAP Portugal commingle their operations.. Sunwing and Tui are another example..

Yeah I would think assets, I merger would be messed up. Iím not sure how our scope would deal with that. Seems very very messy. Letís hope not

Papa Bear
03-25-2019, 09:18 PM
Spirit all day...keep applying. JetBlue is a mess.

HighFlight
03-25-2019, 09:53 PM
Spirit all day...keep applying. JetBlue is a mess.

Not.

Filler

Bluedriver
03-26-2019, 12:31 AM
Not.

Filler

Any "color"?

HighFlight
03-26-2019, 07:03 AM
Any "color"?

Why, Blue, of course! ;)

360KIAS
03-26-2019, 04:50 PM
Also....Legacy = a company that existed before deregulation (Iím guessing you arenít familiar with that term and that it happened long before you were born). . If you were around for that whole debacle you should know that, but Iím guessing youíre still too new.

If youíve never heard the phrase ďnever miss a good opportunity to $TFUĒ when you are new, Iíd offer that is one you should listen to.

Thanks for the well-intended aviation lesson. You millenials crack me up. Want what those above you have, but aren't willing to wait a few years and actually earn your keep. Whatever...

PasserOGas
03-26-2019, 05:35 PM
Thanks for the well-intended aviation lesson. You millenials crack me up. Want what those above you have, but aren't willing to wait a few years and actually earn your keep. Whatever...

Waiting has nothing to do with it. Standing up for yourself and demanding peer set compensation does. You think DAL wouldn't love to pay their pilots what we make? They dont because they know it would be a disaster. Their pilots would:

A. Never vote yes to our CBA.

B. Turn the operation upside down.

What they wouldn't do is make excuses for the company's greed.

pilotpayne
03-26-2019, 09:38 PM
Any "color"?

Good point letís do it that way....

What is your favorite color? Blue no wait yellow. Ahhhhh

Bluedriver
03-27-2019, 01:10 AM
Thanks for the well-intended aviation lesson. You millenials crack me up. Want what those above you have, but aren't willing to wait a few years and actually earn your keep. Whatever...

You are not a major airline pilot. Or you shouldn't be.

aldonite7667
03-27-2019, 01:46 AM
Waiting has nothing to do with it. Standing up for yourself and demanding peer set compensation does. You think DAL wouldn't love to pay their pilots what we make? They dont because they know it would be a disaster. Their pilots would:

A. Never vote yes to our CBA.

B. Turn the operation upside down.

What they wouldn't do is make excuses for the company's greed.

It only took Delta 100 years to get that CBA. Good on em

PasserOGas
03-27-2019, 05:35 AM
It only took Delta 100 years to get that CBA. Good on em

Yes, they were bottom of the barrel, waiting their turn accepting table scraps the previous 99 years. :rolleyes:

pilotpayne
03-27-2019, 05:45 AM
Yes, they were bottom of the barrel, waiting their turn accepting table scraps the previous 99 years. :rolleyes:

I wouldnít argue that but history wise it might be interesting. There were a bunch of mergers that make Delta what it is today. You definitely have a bankruptcy in there as well. Throw in a few furloughs. Back in the day Iím sure people were like dude donít stay at Delta go to Eastern or Pan Am.

But we are talking now and they absolutely have a better contract and network. I definitely think itís hard to compare what jetblue has to what Delta has. Thatís like asking why an 18 year old doesnít have his house paid off a vacation house a few cars and his retirement funded.

Historically speaking jetblue has actually done well in a tough environment, there is a lot to unpack there as well but they have survived and grown. Not if we could just get them to value the people that help make that happen we would be good.

PasserOGas
03-27-2019, 07:13 AM
I wouldnít argue that but history wise it might be interesting. There were a bunch of mergers that make Delta what it is today. You definitely have a bankruptcy in there as well. Throw in a few furloughs. Back in the day Iím sure people were like dude donít stay at Delta go to Eastern or Pan Am.

But we are talking now and they absolutely have a better contract and network. I definitely think itís hard to compare what jetblue has to what Delta has. Thatís like asking why an 18 year old doesnít have his house paid off a vacation house a few cars and his retirement funded.

Historically speaking jetblue has actually done well in a tough environment, there is a lot to unpack there as well but they have survived and grown. Not if we could just get them to value the people that help make that happen we would be good.

I would never argue that they have been at the top the whole time. That spot switches as a result of pattern bargaining. Yes they took concessions during bankruptcy, but have they ever accepted a bottom feeding CBA during the good times?

Southerner
03-27-2019, 09:59 AM
I would never argue that they have been at the top the whole time. That spot switches as a result of pattern bargaining. Yes they took concessions during bankruptcy, but have they ever accepted a bottom feeding CBA during the good times?

1. I think that our CBA is not "bottom-feeding." It's a lot better than what we had (no CBA), and we made some solid gains with scope. It's a solid "middle of the road" agreement, which is exactly where we are as a company.

2. If any airline, including Delta, were in our shoes with an initial CBA, I think they would've gotten a similar result. It may be unpopular with some of you miserable types, but I think that the ALPA negotiating team did doggone good with this agreement, and they don't deserve the crap some of you spout.

We will be negotiating again before you know it, and we will have more improvements in the next CBA.

360KIAS
03-27-2019, 10:54 AM
1. I think that our CBA is not "bottom-feeding." It's a lot better than what we had (no CBA), and we made some solid gains with scope. It's a solid "middle of the road" agreement, which is exactly where we are as a company.

2. If any airline, including Delta, were in our shoes with an initial CBA, I think they would've gotten a similar result. It may be unpopular with some of you miserable types, but I think that the ALPA negotiating team did doggone good with this agreement, and they don't deserve the crap some of you spout.

We will be negotiating again before you know it, and we will have more improvements in the next CBA.

This, X1000. We have a decent base from which to make improvements, and hopefully we are able to do so as a unified group.

Seems folks don't wanna remember retirements being taken away in the past, or furloughs, or other negatives that the legacy pilots had to deal with.

360KIAS
03-27-2019, 10:57 AM
You are not a major airline pilot. Or you shouldn't be.

Right. Perhaps you should email payroll and have them stop my pay, eh?

Climbto450
03-27-2019, 11:47 AM
1. I think that our CBA is not "bottom-feeding." It's a lot better than what we had (no CBA), and we made some solid gains with scope. It's a solid "middle of the road" agreement, which is exactly where we are as a company.

2. If any airline, including Delta, were in our shoes with an initial CBA, I think they would've gotten a similar result. It may be unpopular with some of you miserable types, but I think that the ALPA negotiating team did doggone good with this agreement, and they don't deserve the crap some of you spout.

We will be negotiating again before you know it, and we will have more improvements in the next CBA.

Agreed, itís not a mature contract like our legacy peers have. However, for a first contract we did pretty well. 2nd round is right around the corner hopefully we will stay strong and do well..

PasserOGas
03-27-2019, 01:37 PM
Agreed, itís not a mature contract like our legacy peers have. However, for a first contract we did pretty well. 2nd round is right around the corner hopefully we will stay strong and do well..

My QOL and pay have barely moved pre-CBA to post-CBA. Then again, I did what the arithmatic told me to do and sold my PTO. I can see why we only picketed once. Solid gains indeed. :rolleyes:

I can't wait to see the mental gymnastic people on here will go through to justify a pay cut with the next one.

My prediction, we will be in a recession, but B6 will still be profitable. It will be concessionary.

hilltopflyer
03-27-2019, 01:53 PM
My QOL and pay have barely moved pre-CBA to post-CBA. Then again, I did what the arithmatic told me to do and sold my PTO. I can see why we only picketed once. Solid gains indeed. :rolleyes:

I can't wait to see the mental gymnastic people on here will go through to justify a pay cut with the next one.

My prediction, we will be in a recession, but B6 will still be profitable. It will be concessionary.

Guessing you are a 190 captain. Most of the guys I flew with were saying the exact same thing.

BunkerF16
03-27-2019, 03:20 PM
1. I think that our CBA is not "bottom-feeding." It's a lot better than what we had (no CBA), and we made some solid gains with scope. It's a solid "middle of the road" agreement, which is exactly where we are as a company.

2. If any airline, including Delta, were in our shoes with an initial CBA, I think they would've gotten a similar result. It may be unpopular with some of you miserable types, but I think that the ALPA negotiating team did doggone good with this agreement, and they don't deserve the crap some of you spout.

We will be negotiating again before you know it, and we will have more improvements in the next CBA.


1. It is bottom-feeding. If you compare us to our peers. I do not consider Frontier and Spirit our peers. We are not a ULCC. If you compare us to DL, AA, UA and SW, we're at the bottom across the board.



2. I'm tired of the, "we're not Delta", or "We'll get em next time" crowd. It's excuse making for the substandard agreement we voted in. Period. The next person that says that it's better than what we had, or worse, it's better than where I came from....I swear to God.


Will we be making improvements. Probably. But in this pattern bargaining game we're in, when your frog leaps to the back of the line, only to watch all the other frogs leap far, far away into the distance, you're playing the game wrong.

Southerner
03-27-2019, 03:41 PM
1. It is bottom-feeding. If you compare us to our peers. I do not consider Frontier and Spirit our peers. We are not a ULCC. If you compare us to DL, AA, UA and SW, we're at the bottom across the board.



2. I'm tired of the, "we're not Delta", or "We'll get em next time" crowd. It's excuse making for the substandard agreement we voted in. Period. The next person that says that it's better than what we had, or worse, it's better than where I came from....I swear to God.


Will we be making improvements. Probably. But in this pattern bargaining game we're in, when your frog leaps to the back of the line, only to watch all the other frogs leap far, far away into the distance, you're playing the game wrong.

Some of our contract provisions are better than something at each of those airlines. We have scope that is better than all of them, except perhaps SouthWest, for instance.

You can't cherry-pick provisions of each OAL CBA and cherry-pick the peers themselves, then say we are at the bottom.

Like it or not, our contract is solid "middle of the pack." We have lots of room for improvement, obviously. But stop acting like you're digging ditches in Ethiopia.


To your final point, I agree. It sucks that we didn't vote in a Union in 2007 and we aren't on our 2nd or 3rd contract. But we were negotiating our first. Our pattern bargaining will begin in earnest with the next CBA because we now have a starting position that is codified.

BunkerF16
03-27-2019, 04:08 PM
Some of our contract provisions are better than something at each of those airlines. We have scope that is better than all of them, except perhaps SouthWest, for instance.

You can't cherry-pick provisions of each OAL CBA and cherry-pick the peers themselves, then say we are at the bottom.

Like it or not, our contract is solid "middle of the pack." We have lots of room for improvement, obviously. But stop acting like you're digging ditches in Ethiopia.


To your final point, I agree. It sucks that we didn't vote in a Union in 2007 and we aren't on our 2nd or 3rd contract. But we were negotiating our first. Our pattern bargaining will begin in earnest with the next CBA because we now have a starting position that is codified.


Everyone who keeps touting this contract keeps coming back to Scope. You know what, that's fine. It's good. I'll admit that. I ask you to give me another section where we're not at the bottom of our peer set.


It's not middle of the pack, Southerner. It's just not. It's at the very bottom when we compare it with our peers. Saying this is our 1st contract and gosh darn it, we'll get em next time is a cop out. We agreed to a sh1tty CBA.


I'd be better off if we stayed under the old PEA. And that's pathetic.

Southerner
03-27-2019, 04:17 PM
Everyone who keeps touting this contract keeps coming back to Scope. You know what, that's fine. It's good. I'll admit that. I ask you to give me another section where we're not at the bottom of our peer set.


It's not middle of the pack, Southerner. It's just not. It's at the very bottom when we compare it with our peers. Saying this is our 1st contract and gosh darn it, we'll get em next time is a cop out. We agreed to a sh1tty CBA.


I'd be better off if we stayed under the old PEA. And that's pathetic.

I disagree. You are entitled to your opinion. Peace.

BluesClues
03-27-2019, 04:20 PM
Everyone who keeps touting this contract keeps coming back to Scope. You know what, that's fine. It's good. I'll admit that. I ask you to give me another section where we're not at the bottom of our peer set.


It's not middle of the pack, Southerner. It's just not. It's at the very bottom when we compare it with our peers. Saying this is our 1st contract and gosh darn it, we'll get em next time is a cop out. We agreed to a sh1tty CBA.


I'd be better off if we stayed under the old PEA. And that's pathetic.

How about coming with some facts instead of just spouting off about how itís at the bottom. Profit sharing blows, we all know that. Besides that, what, payrates? Yeah theyíre literally a few dollars less than the big 3, but as anyone that been doing this for awhile should know, per hour numbers are just for ego, work rules are what make the difference. So go ahead and tell us how our work rules are below Delta, United, or America. Just about every single section of our contract is ahead of at least one of those airlines.

So I want to hear it, how are our reserve rules vs United and AA? How is our JRA or EPS language vs Delta? How is our ADG compared to AA. Etc.... Please be specific with some actual facts.

Southerner
03-27-2019, 04:38 PM
How about coming with some facts instead of just spouting off about how itís at the bottom. Profit sharing blows, we all know that. Besides that, what, payrates? Yeah theyíre literally a few dollars less than the big 3, but as anyone that been doing this for awhile should know, per hour numbers are just for ego, work rules are what make the difference. So go ahead and tell us how our work rules are below Delta, United, or America. Just about every single section of our contract is ahead of at least one of those airlines.

So I want to hear it, how are our reserve rules vs United and AA? How is our JRA or EPS language vs Delta? How is our ADG compared to AA. Etc.... Please be specific with some actual facts.

He doesn't want facts. He wants to hold his opinion without being rational, and be miserable.

We do have room for improvement, naturally. There's no such thing as a perfect contract. The profit sharing is less than other carriers. Personally, I prefer to have solid work rules and good pay rates, because the company can always have as much or as little profit as they want to show. We saw this last cycle. So even with our profit sharing where it is, it wouldn't be my top priority for the next round.

American has some truly stupid work rules. Ours are far better, and our pay protections for extensions, etc. are light years ahead. I just spent a few hours on a AA jumpseat and we compared some notes. Personally, I wouldn't swap CBAs with them. We make more money than them, mostly due to the fact that our staffing is screwed up and we get RSA/VDA/EPS all the time. But that's part of the CBA. You have to understand that you can't compare just straight 75 hours for all CBAs and consider them as apples to apples. You have to look at the provisions for disruption, scope, reserve, etc., to really see what the playing field is like.

I feel sorry for "Les Miserables" on here. It's kinda sad to see people who worked so hard to get here work themselves into a tizzy, and make themselves miserable. But, honestly, they would be the guy at Delta complaining just as much. You can't fix these types. They just complain.

360KIAS
03-27-2019, 04:47 PM
Everyone who keeps touting this contract keeps coming back to Scope. You know what, that's fine. It's good. I'll admit that. I ask you to give me another section where we're not at the bottom of our peer set.


It's not middle of the pack, Southerner. It's just not. It's at the very bottom when we compare it with our peers. Saying this is our 1st contract and gosh darn it, we'll get em next time is a cop out. We agreed to a sh1tty CBA.


I'd be better off if we stayed under the old PEA. And that's pathetic.

Sorry for your obvious misery. My contract seems to be better than yours. Here's hoping you are able to move on to a "real" airline soon you you can b!tch about how great things are (not) there.

Ours will be just as good as Delta's, once we have as many iterations of CBAs that they have under their belt.

BluesClues
03-27-2019, 04:57 PM
He doesn't want facts. He wants to hold his opinion without being rational, and be miserable.

We do have room for improvement, naturally. There's no such thing as a perfect contract. The profit sharing is less than other carriers. Personally, I prefer to have solid work rules and good pay rates, because the company can always have as much or as little profit as they want to show. We saw this last cycle. So even with our profit sharing where it is, it wouldn't be my top priority for the next round.

American has some truly stupid work rules. Ours are far better, and our pay protections for extensions, etc. are light years ahead. I just spent a few hours on a AA jumpseat and we compared some notes. Personally, I wouldn't swap CBAs with them. We make more money than them, mostly due to the fact that our staffing is screwed up and we get RSA/VDA/EPS all the time. But that's part of the CBA. You have to understand that you can't compare just straight 75 hours for all CBAs and consider them as apples to apples. You have to look at the provisions for disruption, scope, reserve, etc., to really see what the playing field is like.

I feel sorry for "Les Miserables" on here. It's kinda sad to see people who worked so hard to get here work themselves into a tizzy, and make themselves miserable. But, honestly, they would be the guy at Delta complaining just as much. You can't fix these types. They just complain.

Great response. My post really wasnít for him though, it was for the hundreds of lurkers that read this site and donít know any better.

Qotsaautopilot
03-27-2019, 05:21 PM
To the OP,

From a spirit pilot, if I had an offer TODAY to be the plug at either spirit or jetblue I’d choose Jetblue and never look back.

I’d also kill for Jetblue scope. It’s section one for a reason, it’s the most important section.

I also completely agree with the guys that say jetblue fell short on this contract. They got closer than we did at spirit as we dropped the ball big time. You don’t pattern to the back of the line.

As for the question of who is who’s peer? How the BOD and C-level decide to package the product aft of the cockpit door is completely meaningless. I don’t care if it’s a ULCC, LCC, legacy, cargo. An Airbus or any airplane for that matter is the same as the next and our responsibility is the same. The “this isn’t delta” crowd only hurts themselves and the rest of us.

hilltopflyer
03-27-2019, 05:28 PM
To the OP,

From a spirit pilot, if I had an offer TODAY to be the plug at either spirit or jetblue Iíd choose Jetblue and never look back.

Iíd also kill for Jetblue scope. Itís section one for a reason, itís the most important section.

I also completely agree with the guys that say jetblue fell short on this contract. They got closer than we did at spirit as we dropped the ball big time. You donít pattern to the back of the line.

As for the question of who is whoís peer? How the BOD and C-level decide to package the product aft of the cockpit door is completely meaningless. I donít care if itís a ULCC, LCC, legacy, cargo. An Airbus or any airplane for that matter is the same as the next and our responsibility is the same. The ďthis isnít deltaĒ crowd only hurts themselves and the rest of us.

Good post.

BunkerF16
03-27-2019, 05:51 PM
Sorry for your obvious misery. My contract seems to be better than yours. Here's hoping you are able to move on to a "real" airline soon you you can b!tch about how great things are (not) there.

Ours will be just as good as Delta's, once we have as many iterations of CBAs that they have under their belt.


You're obviously very junior. Because this is who this CBA was designed for. Anyone with any seniority, either overall or in their seat, got screwed with this deal. Period.


And you can GFY talking about moving on. I'd be gone in a second if I was 10 years younger. Unfortunately, I'm stuck here and will ride it out into the sunset. With blue juice drinkers, glad to be here, it's better than where I was before, hand me a pair of blue glove guys like you and Southerner.

nuball5
03-27-2019, 06:00 PM
He doesn't want facts. He wants to hold his opinion without being rational, and be miserable.

We do have room for improvement, naturally. There's no such thing as a perfect contract. The profit sharing is less than other carriers. Personally, I prefer to have solid work rules and good pay rates, because the company can always have as much or as little profit as they want to show. We saw this last cycle. So even with our profit sharing where it is, it wouldn't be my top priority for the next round.

American has some truly stupid work rules. Ours are far better, and our pay protections for extensions, etc. are light years ahead. I just spent a few hours on a AA jumpseat and we compared some notes. Personally, I wouldn't swap CBAs with them. We make more money than them, mostly due to the fact that our staffing is screwed up and we get RSA/VDA/EPS all the time. But that's part of the CBA. You have to understand that you can't compare just straight 75 hours for all CBAs and consider them as apples to apples. You have to look at the provisions for disruption, scope, reserve, etc., to really see what the playing field is like.

I feel sorry for "Les Miserables" on here. It's kinda sad to see people who worked so hard to get here work themselves into a tizzy, and make themselves miserable. But, honestly, they would be the guy at Delta complaining just as much. You can't fix these types. They just complain.

Some of the VDA and EPS scenarios Iím hearing out on the line lately are absurd.

PasserOGas
03-27-2019, 06:26 PM
To the OP,

From a spirit pilot, if I had an offer TODAY to be the plug at either spirit or jetblue Iíd choose Jetblue and never look back.

Iíd also kill for Jetblue scope. Itís section one for a reason, itís the most important section.

I also completely agree with the guys that say jetblue fell short on this contract. They got closer than we did at spirit as we dropped the ball big time. You donít pattern to the back of the line.

As for the question of who is whoís peer? How the BOD and C-level decide to package the product aft of the cockpit door is completely meaningless. I donít care if itís a ULCC, LCC, legacy, cargo. An Airbus or any airplane for that matter is the same as the next and our responsibility is the same. The ďthis isnít deltaĒ crowd only hurts themselves and the rest of us.

This is exactly why I was hoping Frontier would finally be able to strike. What is holding us back isn't some immutable law of economics that Spirit pilots should make less because the tickets are cheaper. It's our inability to strike. Our inability to demand more and walk if we don't get it.

The big 3 got their pay and benefits in place when we could do just that. A scab was visible and not just some anonymous apologist who couldn't wait to vote yes. I'm not calling for a wildcat strike, but if the NMB keeps being in management's pocket, and ALPA keeps its noodle limp, eventually that needs to be on the table.

360KIAS
03-27-2019, 06:51 PM
You're obviously very junior. Because this is who this CBA was designed for. Anyone with any seniority, either overall or in their seat, got screwed with this deal. Period.


And you can GFY talking about moving on. I'd be gone in a second if I was 10 years younger. Unfortunately, I'm stuck here and will ride it out into the sunset. With blue juice drinkers, glad to be here, it's better than where I was before, hand me a pair of blue glove guys like you and Southerner.

You are correct, the CBA benefited less junior guys more than senior guys. And because I am junior, but respect the blood, sweat and tears of the more senior folk, I voted no, thinking we might go around again for CBA2. But we did not, the majority spoke and we got what they wanted. But I'm not bitter about it; there is zero I can do or say after the vote to change it, so why waste my time and energy? Why not focus on the positives in the CBA, and save that energy for when we are voting on CBA2?

The CBA has been good overall this far for me personally, and I think for the pilot group as a whole. Perfect? Of course not. Neither were my first six marriages. But there is plenty of room, and plenty of time for improvement, so let's focus on that, instead of disparaging the majority of the group who voted yes on an anonymous forum, eh?

You're not "stuck" here. You could (and I suspect you WOULD) quit tomorrow, if it were really all that bad. But it's not all that bad. You admitted to us all that it's better than where you were before, so that's a start. Focus on the positive, let the negative go. I'll be right here with you for the next several years, so let's drink some adult beverages when we're not slaving away, and talk about the good ole days together. I'm sure we could each come up with some stories that would raise eyebrows.

And while I can appreciate an ineffectual KBW attempt at an online slam, I have never donned a pair of blue gloves in an airplane. Ever.

CanoeBum
03-28-2019, 10:30 AM
This thread got me thinking, when I was interviewed part of the reasoning for the lower pay (told to us by the MCO CP at the time) was that with his PTO sell back included at his longevity the hourly rate was already as good as the legacies. I wonder how he justifies it now... but 360 and our southern friends are right. Iím here till thereís dirt on the windscreen.

Climbto450
03-28-2019, 11:18 AM
My QOL and pay have barely moved pre-CBA to post-CBA. Then again, I did what the arithmatic told me to do and sold my PTO. I can see why we only picketed once. Solid gains indeed. :rolleyes:

I can't wait to see the mental gymnastic people on here will go through to justify a pay cut with the next one.

My prediction, we will be in a recession, but B6 will still be profitable. It will be concessionary.

If we are in a recession then ( which I donít see but of course my crystal ball isnít alway correct) maybe take a page from the Delta book and go after profit sharing there are always gains to be made..



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