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View Full Version : PBS at Alaska?


PolishFlyerDude
02-09-2018, 04:28 PM
Do you guys have PBS there right now? I heard you picked it up as a result of the arbitrator's ruling last fall.


echelon
02-09-2018, 04:36 PM
https://media.giphy.com/media/pUeXcg80cO8I8/giphy.gif

airb320
02-09-2018, 05:05 PM
Negative, The AS Pilots are stuck in the 60ís and 70ís and loving it, just like the plane they are holding onto😂


IDIOTPILOT
02-09-2018, 05:14 PM
Virgin side has Flightline until JCTE changeover. JCTE is Alaska side’s scheduling and tracking system, including line bidding. Right now JCTE changeover is estimated in fourth quarter 2018.

There is a MOU that was agreed to pre arbitration. It covers some Scheduling items to be discussed to include PBS. The gist is the Scheduling committees and company will explore and talk about a potential PBS vendor and work rules. Once and if they find something agreeable, it’ll go to membership ratification.

Arbitration mentioned nothing about PBS and both work groups will be under line bidding this year or early next.

2loud
02-09-2018, 09:17 PM
Negative, The AS Pilots are stuck in the 60ís and 70ís and loving it, just like the plane they are holding onto😂

To the OP, no PBS here at Alaskan Airways.
Hey airb, you are now Alaskan even though you are that red headed stepchild whom Puzzle Palace was conned into adopting. We are now one bigger dysfunctional wannabe-family, yíall.

Jetlife
02-10-2018, 04:53 AM
To the OP, no PBS here at Alaskan Airways.
Hey airb, you are now Alaskan even though you are that red headed stepchild whom Puzzle Palace was conned into adopting. We are now one bigger dysfunctional wannabe-family, yíall.

The red headed step children now patented by people far too old to parent correctly. We are all looking forward to doing the Charleston when line bidding comes. Perhaps we will hit the trail in a covered wagon to tell everyone the good news.

ZapBrannigan
02-10-2018, 04:56 AM
So I take it the Virgin folks like PBS better than line bidding? What are the pros and cons?


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Jetlife
02-10-2018, 04:58 AM
So I take it the Virgin folks like PBS better than line bidding? What are the pros and cons?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pros to line bidding? A carrier pigeon delivers your schedule once a month. If the weather is bad they send it via Morse code.

IDIOTPILOT
02-10-2018, 05:17 AM
So I take it the Virgin folks like PBS better than line bidding? What are the pros and cons?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Itís got less to do with PBS itself but more of the work rules that are used. Iíve seen the same PBS program at other places and itís night and day what the rules do.

We have a window to build our schedules, usually 70 hours minimum. Some months like July, December, they can flex to 75. If you can build to 71 hours and donít want to work more, thatís it. This likely results in 16-19 days off.

Some months you can be unstacked. A little complex scenario but say Christmas has too many trips, they can assign trips not in your preference then build the rest of your schedule.

Iíve seen the same PBS program with 90 hour minimums or the need to push a certain average. This results in horrible schedules on average. So itís got less to do with PBS itself and more of how we get so much more flexibility. Line bidding by its nature is highly unlikely to result in 70 hour lines with 20 days off for those that want it.

IamAlaska
02-10-2018, 07:42 AM
I would consider PBS only if we got something like a 5hr min calendar day guarantee. That includes reserves as well. If a reserve gets called out for an ANC allnighter that would equate to 10hrs of credit towards guarantee. If the company wants to park a pilot in OAK for 30hrs, that would equate to an extra 5hrs of pay. Right now vacation trading is our most valuable tool for blowing unwanted pairings off of our schedule. With PBS that goes away...so we better get something (min cal day guar) for it.

PolishFlyerDude
02-10-2018, 09:56 AM
How does PBS work with vacation overlap and month-to-month overlap?

At my airline, many guys profit to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year by bidding lines that end up with max vacation overlap (paid days that are dropped because they conflict with awarded vacation weeks). It's not uncommon to not work at all during a vacation month (if you have two staggered weeks of vacation in a month) or only work three or four days (if you only have one week of vacation in a month). Cumulatively, depending on seniority, this can give most guys at least a couple of months per year completely off and paid, or several months with minimal flying and paid.

On the month-to-month overlap, guys profit because a lot of open time is created in the overlap from conflicting trips, which is picked up (theoretically) at time-and-a-half. Lately, though, we have so many extra people, it's pretty difficult to get anything but straight time flying out of open time. Historically, guys here have made quite a bit of money from the month-to-month overlap.

ZapBrannigan
02-10-2018, 10:57 AM
I assume that line bidding allows you to use vacation overlap (trips that touch vacation drop) to turn one week of vacation into 3 weeks off. Right?

PBS wouldnít allow you to build a schedule with overlap? Would it?


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flysnoopy76
02-10-2018, 11:20 AM
I assume that line bidding allows you to use vacation overlap (trips that touch vacation drop) to turn one week of vacation into 3 weeks off. Right?

PBS wouldnít allow you to build a schedule with overlap? Would it?


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Not at Alaska, the touching trips will drop but youíll need to replace them with other trips to restore your credit to the minimum threshold.

Pogey Bait
02-10-2018, 12:53 PM
How does PBS work with vacation overlap and month-to-month overlap?

At my airline, many guys profit to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars per year by bidding lines that end up with max vacation overlap (paid days that are dropped because they conflict with awarded vacation weeks). It's not uncommon to not work at all during a vacation month (if you have two staggered weeks of vacation in a month) or only work three or four days (if you only have one week of vacation in a month). Cumulatively, depending on seniority, this can give most guys at least a couple of months per year completely off and paid, or several months with minimal flying and paid.

On the month-to-month overlap, guys profit because a lot of open time is created in the overlap from conflicting trips, which is picked up (theoretically) at time-and-a-half. Lately, though, we have so many extra people, it's pretty difficult to get anything but straight time flying out of open time. Historically, guys here have made quite a bit of money from the month-to-month overlap.

This is wonderful and why line bidding is great. Why doesnít Alaskan have this?

OCCP
02-10-2018, 01:56 PM
Because they havenít stood up for themselves in 85 years

Jetlife
02-10-2018, 01:58 PM
Because they havenít stood up for themselves in 85 years

No scope, no work rules. Change the wings on the new uniform? This is an outrage!!!!!!!!

Bugaboo
02-11-2018, 03:31 AM
No scope, no work rules. Change the wings on the new uniform? This is an outrage!!!!!!!!

Thats funny.....but true!

Mudhen200
02-11-2018, 06:28 AM
This is wonderful and why line bidding is great. Why doesnít Alaskan have this?

We did. We lost it to Kasher in 2005.
Most of the other Legacy airlines had it as well. They all lost it to Bankruptcy.

Trips touching vacation and training was worth untold millions to the airlines. What use to be ours became theirs overnight. The swing of money and QOL was turned upside down at each individual airline with a stroke of a Judges or arbitrators pen.

full of luv
02-13-2018, 04:17 AM
We did. We lost it to Kasher in 2005.
Most of the other Legacy airlines had it as well. They all lost it to Bankruptcy.

Trips touching vacation and training was worth untold millions to the airlines. What use to be ours became theirs overnight. The swing of money and QOL was turned upside down at each individual airline with a stroke of a Judges or arbitrators pen.

Agreed, but that was then, this is now. Things need to be restored while the profits are rolling in.

Legacies all went BK and had some deep cuts to the contracts, it's taken a decade to get most of that back (if not more in some areas).

rickair7777
02-13-2018, 05:55 AM
I assume that line bidding allows you to use vacation overlap (trips that touch vacation drop) to turn one week of vacation into 3 weeks off. Right?

PBS wouldn’t allow you to build a schedule with overlap? Would it?


No. You would lose trip touching... if you had it in the first place.

PBS can give you a lot of flexibility, to have time off when you need it, make more money, or some of both. But you must have contractual control over how PBS operates. If you can't get that, might be better off with line bidding and trip touching... at least then you can see what you're getting.

Jetlife
02-13-2018, 05:59 AM
Trip touching you potentially get 8 extra days off or so, yet you had PBS with good language and more productivity, the average AS lineholder would probably see 4-5 more days off a month at the same credit. Forest though the trees guys....

Vincent Chase
02-13-2018, 06:42 AM
Trip touching you potentially get 8 extra days off or so, yet you had PBS with good language and more productivity, the average AS lineholder would probably see 4-5 more days off a month at the same credit. Forest though the trees guys....
Only if they're senior...At least where I work. PBS works great for senior guys...not so much for junior line holders. A senior FO line holder can bid trips with LCA. Those trips often drop off said FO's schedule due to LCA needing to train a new FO or capt. Said senior FO now has 4 days off or can pick up another trip, effectively making double pay.

Bottom line is that seniority makes PBS bearable. It's not like that for everyone, though.

rogersmith
02-13-2018, 09:43 AM
First year, from the tie-less side(pbs side): for March I got 15 days off and 79 hours. All my days off are in a 4 day block or more, have a full weekend off, and the trips are commutable on atleast one side. That being said, I do have a 6 day block (2 day + 4 day), a 5 day block (3 day + 2 day), and two 2 day trips. I checked the box to allow my trips to be bunched up, less commuting makes life easier. Iím pretty happy with pbs, but you can always find a monster hiding in the shadows if you look hard enough.

Jetlife
02-13-2018, 10:49 AM
Iím 66% in base as an FO and in March I have 18 days off with 78 hours of credit. I am not ďseniorĒ and I can pretty much pick and choose what I want and donít want. I still donít buy the notion that PBS will somehow be MORE miserable than mine bidding.

Packrat
02-13-2018, 12:08 PM
Legacies all went BK and had some deep cuts to the contracts, it's taken a decade to get most of that back (if not more in some areas).

Now that's some funny stuff right there. AS will never, repeat NEVER, allow trips touching vacation or training again. Getting that away from the pilots was money in their pockets.

ForeverJunior
02-13-2018, 12:45 PM
Iím 66% in base as an FO and in March I have 18 days off with 78 hours of credit. I am not ďseniorĒ and I can pretty much pick and choose what I want and donít want. I still donít buy the notion that PBS will somehow be MORE miserable than mine bidding.

Wait until a bunch of non-commutable 4-day trips are written by the optimizer.

Wait until you give PBS to BM & CK (the guy in charge of crew planning).

My question is what is management willing to give up for us to vote yes on PBS? They always take take take from us.

Enough is enough. We can't give this to them for nothing. I guarantee if we don't get some good contract language, the quality of your lines will decline and you'll have fewer days off.

Angle Lake is ruthless. I can't say it any clearer than that.

IDIOTPILOT
02-13-2018, 01:24 PM
Wait until a bunch of non-commutable 4-day trips are written by the optimizer.

Wait until you give PBS to BM & CK (the guy in charge of crew planning).

My question is what is management willing to give up for us to vote yes on PBS? They always take take take from us.

Enough is enough. We can't give this to them for nothing. I guarantee if we don't get some good contract language, the quality of your lines will decline and you'll have fewer days off.

Angle Lake is ruthless. I can't say it any clearer than that.

This is exactly what I try to tell people who support no question PBS. I have 19 days off next month as a very junior FO, so Iím not complaining about the CURRENT system and procedure. But we pretty much have little contractual language to fall back on. If management wants to push certain parameters for productivity or cost then this can put us in a bad spot.

I canít say line bidding the way I see AS is doing it is great. We need the protected work rules no matter the system, especially if the Airbus flying ends up going more north south.

ForeverJunior
02-13-2018, 01:36 PM
This is exactly what I try to tell people who support no question PBS. I have 19 days off next month as a very junior FO, so Iím not complaining about the CURRENT system and procedure. But we pretty much have little contractual language to fall back on. If management wants to push certain parameters for productivity or cost then this can put us in a bad spot.

I canít say line bidding the way I see AS is doing it is great. We need the protected work rules no matter the system, especially if the Airbus flying ends up going more north south.

Thank you!

Believe me, line bidding is not my favorite, even though I'm fairly senior in base. I like 3-day trips and consistently working on the same days of the week. Hard lines have gotten worse and are getting worse. It's hard to find palatable pure 3-day trip lines. We have too many lines that are a potpourri if 3-day and 4-day trips with a turn or two thrown in there. Personally, if I had my choice, I would bid high-credit 3-day trips and just fly 4 of those every month. I know with PBS I could do that instead of sifting through 390+ lines only to find maybe a dozen that are decent.

Some of us over here on the Alaska side are not anti-PBS. We just know what kind of people we work for and what they will do. I will not give them an inch. They want it all. We give them a little here and a little there and it's never enough. They want MORE. They want us to fly for free.

Sorry, I'm circling the drain here with a rant. I'll stop.

For my VX brethren. Us ALK pilots are not some old-time backwater types. Some of us have had PBS at our former airline(s). We get it. It's just that we are well aware of the management here. They are pilot-haters and that's not vitriol. It's absolutely the truth.

SoCalAirlifter
02-13-2018, 04:11 PM
Now that's some funny stuff right there. AS will never, repeat NEVER, allow trips touching vacation or training again. Getting that away from the pilots was money in their pockets.

Hence how Alaska paid cash for Virgin America!

BusCapt
02-13-2018, 04:14 PM
Thank you!

Believe me, line bidding is not my favorite, even though I'm fairly senior in base. I like 3-day trips and consistently working on the same days of the week. Hard lines have gotten worse and are getting worse. It's hard to find palatable pure 3-day trip lines. We have too many lines that are a potpourri if 3-day and 4-day trips with a turn or two thrown in there. Personally, if I had my choice, I would bid high-credit 3-day trips and just fly 4 of those every month. I know with PBS I could do that instead of sifting through 390+ lines only to find maybe a dozen that are decent.

Some of us over here on the Alaska side are not anti-PBS. We just know what kind of people we work for and what they will do. I will not give them an inch. They want it all. We give them a little here and a little there and it's never enough. They want MORE. They want us to fly for free.

Sorry, I'm circling the drain here with a rant. I'll stop.

For my VX brethren. Us ALK pilots are not some old-time backwater types. Some of us have had PBS at our former airline(s). We get it. It's just that we are well aware of the management here. They are pilot-haters and that's not vitriol. It's absolutely the truth.

Forevery Junior, how long have you been at AS?

Wondering how long it takes to hold a decent schedule as a Captain at AS?

Also, do the pairing at AS have any respect for circadian rhythm (can you find a line where all the report times are relatively consistent- I.E. purely AM or purely PM line?)

Serous safety issue if not....

SoCalAirlifter
02-13-2018, 04:21 PM
I don't doubt the efficiencies and time savings of PBS one bit. The main thing our newly welcomed Virgin America pilots to the Eskimo must understand in this situation is this:

"PBS is not a system you want with Alaska Management running the show (TOTAL CONTROL) nor the Alaska ALPA Union allowing the company to do whatever they want, repackaging the bad deal in a really pretty gift-wrapped box and selling it to the pilot group (or at least the Seattle base where their vote has more than enough weight to tip in the 51st percentile in favor of what Alaska Management is asking for."

IF ESKIMO MGMT WANTS IT, THEN THAT SHOULD BE A HUGE RED FLAG WE DO NOT WANT IT!

SoCalAirlifter
02-13-2018, 04:32 PM
The last little bit of control we have is Pilot 2 Pilot Vacation Trading......or as scheduling affectionately deems it as "Donut-Holing." Where a senior guy can bid to get (lets say for arguments sake 22-28 December off).....then P2P trades 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 26th, 27th & 28th with six different junior FOs.....then magically if you bid right, 7FOs now have the opportunity to have Christmas off where the company only planned for one pilot to have it off. Minicucci hates this!

ForeverJunior
02-13-2018, 06:02 PM
Forevery Junior, how long have you been at AS?

Wondering how long it takes to hold a decent schedule as a Captain at AS?

Also, do the pairing at AS have any respect for circadian rhythm (can you find a line where all the report times are relatively consistent- I.E. purely AM or purely PM line?)

Serous safety issue if not....

I'm a 12-year FO in SEA. Of course, holding a decent schedule depends on your seniority and base.

SEA & PDX are pretty senior with slow upward movement. ANC & LAX are junior.

Ronin47
02-13-2018, 08:26 PM
I'm a 12-year FO in SEA. Of course, holding a decent schedule depends on your seniority and base.

SEA & PDX are pretty senior with slow upward movement. ANC & LAX are junior.

What is the expected upgrade for a 2018 LAX 73 FO? Hearing many different answers from both sides. Thanks

ForeverJunior
02-13-2018, 08:36 PM
What is the expected upgrade for a 2018 LAX 73 FO? Hearing many different answers from both sides. Thanks

Expected? I wish I knew. That would require a crystal ball. Right now, the most junior LAX CA is an October '07 hire.

A lot of things will change, especially with LAX. Will have to see what the SLI & the fleet plan bring.

So many unknowns...

flysnoopy76
02-14-2018, 04:36 AM
Expected? I wish I knew. That would require a crystal ball. Right now, the most junior LAX CA is an October '07 hire.

A lot of things will change, especially with LAX. Will have to see what the SLI & the fleet plan bring.

So many unknowns...

I would plan on a long time unless there are major changes ahead for the better. There is limited hiring with the original 2018 hiring projections reduced from 400 to 280. The growth that is occurring is primarily at SkyWest and Horizon. Retirements are in the area of 40-50 per year or less.

ShyGuy
02-14-2018, 04:02 PM
The last little bit of control we have is Pilot 2 Pilot Vacation Trading......or as scheduling affectionately deems it as "Donut-Holing." Where a senior guy can bid to get (lets say for arguments sake 22-28 December off).....then P2P trades 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 26th, 27th & 28th with six different junior FOs.....then magically if you bid right, 7FOs now have the opportunity to have Christmas off where the company only planned for one pilot to have it off. Minicucci hates this!

I'm curious how this really works, can you explain it further?

Say I want April 18th off and am able to get a single VAC day traded into it from another pilot. My line comes out with a 4-day trip over April 18 worth 24 hrs, and my total line credit is 81 hrs. Now with the conflict, the whole 4-day trip drops and adds one vacation day. So 24 hrs - 3.5 = 20.5 hrs worth dropped. Subtract from 81, and I have 60.5 hrs. Correct? So does this mean I now have to add back to 75 hrs, and it's up to me to find and add a trip worth at least 14.5 hrs. Is that correct?

If so, how is that advantageous? Sounds like a lot of work to ensure one special day off via single vac day conflict. You get the day off you wanted but now have to add more to your schedule somewhere else in the month.

lowflying
02-14-2018, 07:15 PM
I'm curious how this really works, can you explain it further?

Say I want April 18th off and am able to get a single VAC day traded into it from another pilot. My line comes out with a 4-day trip over April 18 worth 24 hrs, and my total line credit is 81 hrs. Now with the conflict, the whole 4-day trip drops and adds one vacation day. So 24 hrs - 3.5 = 20.5 hrs worth dropped. Subtract from 81, and I have 60.5 hrs. Correct? So does this mean I now have to add back to 75 hrs, and it's up to me to find and add a trip worth at least 14.5 hrs. Is that correct?

If so, how is that advantageous? Sounds like a lot of work to ensure one special day off via single vac day conflict. You get the day off you wanted but now have to add more to your schedule somewhere else in the month.

It is a lot of work; if you don't want to work to get xmas or the 4th off then don't. Allot of guys make it work very well for themselves.

SoCalAirlifter
02-14-2018, 09:54 PM
I'm curious how this really works, can you explain it further?

Say I want April 18th off and am able to get a single VAC day traded into it from another pilot. My line comes out with a 4-day trip over April 18 worth 24 hrs, and my total line credit is 81 hrs. Now with the conflict, the whole 4-day trip drops and adds one vacation day. So 24 hrs - 3.5 = 20.5 hrs worth dropped. Subtract from 81, and I have 60.5 hrs. Correct? So does this mean I now have to add back to 75 hrs, and it's up to me to find and add a trip worth at least 14.5 hrs. Is that correct?

If so, how is that advantageous? Sounds like a lot of work to ensure one special day off via single vac day conflict. You get the day off you wanted but now have to add more to your schedule somewhere else in the month.

I didnít mean to imply advantageous. You have the formula down, you will have to pick up to get to the minimum hours for the month (usually 75). If you donít pick up, crew planning will drop something on your line for you (unless itís a training month for you then you donít have to pick up to make it back to 75 hrs. You are right, it can be a hassle to get one day off.....but then again most want Christmas off.

Hope this clarifies.

MiLtoMajor123
02-15-2018, 01:24 PM
While I get the "We DO NOT want our management" to get a PBS system it wants....what's from stopping us union wise from negotiating terms that we like? I mean we can program PBS to our liking just like the Company can do amiright? Our contract and work rules would dictate what would be legal for the company to do would it not? :confused:

Right now we are in crap system of crew access that hardly ever allows us to trade......all I hear is grumblings....but how can we fight this? Obviously our next contract should cover this right??

AltoCumulus
02-15-2018, 03:04 PM
While I get the "We DO NOT want our management" to get a PBS system it wants....what's from stopping us union wise from negotiating terms that we like? I mean we can program PBS to our liking just like the Company can do amiright? Our contract and work rules would dictate what would be legal for the company to do would it not? :confused:

Right now we are in crap system of crew access that hardly ever allows us to trade......all I hear is grumblings....but how can we fight this? Obviously our next contract should cover this right??

I once was an advocate at Alaska for PBS. If the subject came up I would try to explain the advantages of PBS to those that would listen.

Then one day a Captain put this hypothetical to me ď you are put in charge of implementing PBS, the company letís you write the contract language, they accept every provision you want. You get to choose the vendor, you even get to run the line build every month....The first time things go sideways...do you think our MEC will defend the terms of our contract...or will they cave and grant concessions at the companies first request.Ē

I have to say that I think our MEC will cave. 7 flex up months in a year anyone (contract says 6)? How about we agree to suspend trading to implement a crew management program that we donít even like or want.

I am ashamed to say that this is a weak pilot group with a weak MEC. It doesnít matter how rock solid you think the contract provisions in the contract are, it wonít mean much. Ask an Alaska pilot what percentage of management pilots come out of the ranks of the MEC and committee chairs...how about all of them.

I know individuals on the MEC that I respect and like, however the output after the sausage is made is reprehensible.

I am now egnostic about the whole PBS thing. There is good and bad either way. I am so cynacle that it really doesnít matter to me anymore.

MiLtoMajor123
02-15-2018, 04:45 PM
I once was an advocate at Alaska for PBS. If the subject came up I would try to explain the advantages of PBS to those that would listen.

Then one day a Captain put this hypothetical to me ď you are put in charge of implementing PBS, the company letís you write the contract language, they accept every provision you want. You get to choose the vendor, you even get to run the line build every month....The first time things go sideways...do you think our MEC will defend the terms of our contract...or will they cave and grant concessions at the companies first request.Ē

I have to say that I think our MEC will cave. 7 flex up months in a year anyone (contract says 6)? How about we agree to suspend trading to implement a crew management program that we donít even like or want.

I am ashamed to say that this is a weak pilot group with a weak MEC. It doesnít matter how rock solid you think the contract provisions in the contract are, it wonít mean much. Ask an Alaska pilot what percentage of management pilots come out of the ranks of the MEC and committee chairs...how about all of them.

I know individuals on the MEC that I respect and like, however the output after the sausage is made is reprehensible.

I am now egnostic about the whole PBS thing. There is good and bad either way. I am so cynacle that it really doesnít matter to me anymore.

I mean I've heard that line too...which is kind of why I was saying we just need to be more unified.

Klsytakesit
02-15-2018, 06:40 PM
It really does come down to what Alto said...Cynacism abounds...Not enough time left to care. It makes everything a no vote...PBS, Contract 2022. It is turning into a two-bit ship of fools.

echelon
02-15-2018, 07:43 PM
I once was an advocate at Alaska for PBS. If the subject came up I would try to explain the advantages of PBS to those that would listen.

Then one day a Captain put this hypothetical to me ď you are put in charge of implementing PBS, the company letís you write the contract language, they accept every provision you want. You get to choose the vendor, you even get to run the line build every month....The first time things go sideways...do you think our MEC will defend the terms of our contract...or will they cave and grant concessions at the companies first request.Ē

I have to say that I think our MEC will cave. 7 flex up months in a year anyone (contract says 6)? How about we agree to suspend trading to implement a crew management program that we donít even like or want.

I am ashamed to say that this is a weak pilot group with a weak MEC. It doesnít matter how rock solid you think the contract provisions in the contract are, it wonít mean much. Ask an Alaska pilot what percentage of management pilots come out of the ranks of the MEC and committee chairs...how about all of them.

I know individuals on the MEC that I respect and like, however the output after the sausage is made is reprehensible.

I am now egnostic about the whole PBS thing. There is good and bad either way. I am so cynacle that it really doesnít matter to me anymore.

Hopefully the influx of VX pilots (captains and senior FO's especially) who are used to being fisted at every step in their career will make it easier to vote the spineless ones out

OCCP
02-15-2018, 08:50 PM
Oh we will

cmrflyer
02-16-2018, 12:38 AM
Pathetic regional mindset
You must drive a Saturn to work. Most of us have real lives that donít revolve around the base or the airline we work for.
Glad your happy, glad you voted on your contract that makes you so happy.
Wow.

full of luv
02-16-2018, 04:54 AM
I am now egnostic about the whole PBS thing. There is good and bad either way. I am so cynacle that it really doesnít matter to me anymore.

I was going to say "good god" to you but then I figured out you meant you are now agnostic.
I am far from the grammar police, but with that last sentence, I'm beginning to become CYNICAL about the validity of your college degree.
Maybe in your case turn auto-correct back on?:eek:

Pogey Bait
02-16-2018, 05:29 AM
Pathetic regional mindset
You must drive a Saturn to work. Most of us have real lives that donít revolve around the base or the airline we work for.
Glad your happy, glad you voted on your contract that makes you so happy.
Wow.

What you talkin bout Willis?

Flitestar
02-16-2018, 07:28 PM
I was going to say "good god" to you but then I figured out you meant you are now agnostic.
I am far from the grammar police, but with that last sentence, I'm beginning to become CYNICAL about the validity of your college degree.
Maybe in your case turn auto-correct back on?:eek:

This ^^^^^^^^^

WutFace
02-16-2018, 10:03 PM
I once was an advocate at Alaska for PBS. If the subject came up I would try to explain the advantages of PBS to those that would listen.

Then one day a Captain put this hypothetical to me ď you are put in charge of implementing PBS, the company letís you write the contract language, they accept every provision you want. You get to choose the vendor, you even get to run the line build every month....The first time things go sideways...do you think our MEC will defend the terms of our contract...or will they cave and grant concessions at the companies first request.Ē

I have to say that I think our MEC will cave. 7 flex up months in a year anyone (contract says 6)? How about we agree to suspend trading to implement a crew management program that we donít even like or want.

I am ashamed to say that this is a weak pilot group with a weak MEC. It doesnít matter how rock solid you think the contract provisions in the contract are, it wonít mean much. Ask an Alaska pilot what percentage of management pilots come out of the ranks of the MEC and committee chairs...how about all of them.

I know individuals on the MEC that I respect and like, however the output after the sausage is made is reprehensible.

I am now egnostic about the whole PBS thing. There is good and bad either way. I am so cynacle that it really doesnít matter to me anymore.

Luckily for you, you just merged with an airline with a fully staffed MEC that has a backbone.

Vote your bums out.

SoCalAirlifter
02-17-2018, 08:02 PM
Luckily for you, you just merged with an airline with a fully staffed MEC that has a backbone.

Vote your bums out.

Or how about a provision in our contract that if you serve in the union in ANY capacity, there I should be a 15 year gap between your union term and any ďAlaska ManagementĒ position thereafter, any acceptance of a management job (for example......ummmm....say....Chief Pilot of Flt Ops right after your MEC Term where you were instrumental in getting the contract ratified after the Kasher arbitration).......then you resign your seniority number! (Just as an example of course.....wink wink)

Klsytakesit
02-18-2018, 06:24 PM
Bottom line with PBS. Alaska Airlines Leadership is not comfortable with more than the top 10% in both seats having more than 16 days off in a bid period. The stated goal is 14 day off average. When we get PBS(and we will) they will maintain this average. So for the proponents of PBS, when you succeed( and you will), we will average 14 days off, we will have handed back ptp vacation trading, we will not get premium pay for holidays and our line avg value will be 82hrs.
At least we will not have to line bid anymore.
It is not about what we can negotiate. It is about Alaska corporate core philosophy. You can not negotiate a change to that. You have to understand that 85% of the Alaska Pilots are satisfied with our current contract. Satisfied that we dont gave scope, dont have productive work rules, dont have good reserve rules etc.....because they feel they have enough....You cant negotiate that either...

WutFace
02-20-2018, 07:31 AM
Bottom line with PBS. Alaska Airlines Leadership is not comfortable with more than the top 10% in both seats having more than 16 days off in a bid period. The stated goal is 14 day off average. When we get PBS(and we will) they will maintain this average. So for the proponents of PBS, when you succeed( and you will), we will average 14 days off, we will have handed back ptp vacation trading, we will not get premium pay for holidays and our line avg value will be 82hrs.
At least we will not have to line bid anymore.
It is not about what we can negotiate. It is about Alaska corporate core philosophy. You can not negotiate a change to that. You have to understand that 85% of the Alaska Pilots are satisfied with our current contract. Satisfied that we dont gave scope, dont have productive work rules, dont have good reserve rules etc.....because they feel they have enough....You cant negotiate that either...

This is 100% speculation. You can't make the changes you're talking about to productivity by PBS alone. You'd have to make radical changes to your already abysmal pairings.

It's remarkable how many Alaska pilots don't understand how PBS works. Days off is a product of pairing efficiency. PBS only allows you to customize what days you want your pairings assigned. That's it.

All this crap about losing days off is nonsense.

Riverside
02-20-2018, 07:35 AM
This is 100% speculation. You can't make the changes you're talking about to productivity by PBS alone. You'd have to make radical changes to your already abysmal pairings.

It's remarkable how many Alaska pilots don't understand how PBS works. Days off is a product of pairing efficiency. PBS only allows you to customize what days you want your pairings assigned. That's it.

All this crap about losing days off is nonsense.

Especially a good language will equal more days off and better pbs award pairing customization.

SoCalAirlifter
02-20-2018, 09:55 AM
This is 100% speculation. You can't make the changes you're talking about to productivity by PBS alone. You'd have to make radical changes to your already abysmal pairings.

It's remarkable how many Alaska pilots don't understand how PBS works. Days off is a product of pairing efficiency. PBS only allows you to customize what days you want your pairings assigned. That's it.

All this crap about losing days off is nonsense.

Your right, we Alaska pilots donít understand PBS and how it works. And quite frankly, at this juncture in our career at this airline, we donít really care about knowing what PBS can do for us. This is only because this airlineís management has a long history of stripping away the work rules and benefits of this pilot group. Since AK Mgmt is interested in PBS, based on historical evidence......it cannot be a positive thing for this pilot group moving forward. But I will say this to your point about days off being a matter of pairing efficiency:

Alaska Management is NOT entirely interested in pairing efficiency as much as they claim, it is more about protecting the home front pilots of the Seattle base. Everything revolves around their pairings. I have flown with scheduling committee Capts, they all say the same thing, ďit would cost the company money.....to much money to revamp the current system (The Optimizer) to make more efficient pairings that would benefit the other bases.Ē

If mgmt was interested in greater efficiency, they would fix our scheduling rules and reveal the algorithm(s) that go into the optimizer to produce the current pairings we all receive month in and month out.

Because this is the reality, we Alaska pilots are not interested in giving AK Management ANYTHING more. Trip touching (paid trips that touch vacation days or training) is a work rule that was STOLEN by the Kasher award (among others). Our union has not & will not stand up and fight to get back what was stolen from this great group of pilots! Therefore, I think this is why you see such a hard stance against PBS here at the Eskimo.

ForeverJunior
02-20-2018, 10:41 AM
Your right, we Alaska pilots donít understand PBS and how it works. And quite frankly, at this juncture in our career at this airline, we donít really care about knowing what PBS can do for us. This is only because this airlineís management has a long history of stripping away the work rules and benefits of this pilot group. Since AK Mgmt is interested in PBS, based on historical evidence......it cannot be a positive thing for this pilot group moving forward. But I will say this to your point about days off being a matter of pairing efficiency:

Alaska Management is NOT entirely interested in pairing efficiency as much as they claim, it is more about protecting the home front pilots of the Seattle base. Everything revolves around their pairings. I have flown with scheduling committee Capts, they all say the same thing, ďit would cost the company money.....to much money to revamp the current system (The Optimizer) to make more efficient pairings that would benefit the other bases.Ē

If mgmt was interested in greater efficiency, they would fix our scheduling rules and reveal the algorithm(s) that go into the optimizer to produce the current pairings we all receive month in and month out.

Because this is the reality, we Alaska pilots are not interested in giving AK Management ANYTHING more. Trip touching (paid trips that touch vacation days or training) is a work rule that was STOLEN by the Kasher award (among others). Our union has not & will not stand up and fight to get back what was stolen from this great group of pilots! Therefore, I think this is why you see such a hard stance against PBS here at the Eskimo.

Bravo! Well stated.

WutFace
02-20-2018, 02:43 PM
Your right, we Alaska pilots donít understand PBS and how it works. And quite frankly, at this juncture in our career at this airline, we donít really care about knowing what PBS can do for us. This is only because this airlineís management has a long history of stripping away the work rules and benefits of this pilot group. Since AK Mgmt is interested in PBS, based on historical evidence......it cannot be a positive thing for this pilot group moving forward. But I will say this to your point about days off being a matter of pairing efficiency:

Alaska Management is NOT entirely interested in pairing efficiency as much as they claim, it is more about protecting the home front pilots of the Seattle base. Everything revolves around their pairings. I have flown with scheduling committee Capts, they all say the same thing, ďit would cost the company money.....to much money to revamp the current system (The Optimizer) to make more efficient pairings that would benefit the other bases.Ē

If mgmt was interested in greater efficiency, they would fix our scheduling rules and reveal the algorithm(s) that go into the optimizer to produce the current pairings we all receive month in and month out.

Because this is the reality, we Alaska pilots are not interested in giving AK Management ANYTHING more. Trip touching (paid trips that touch vacation days or training) is a work rule that was STOLEN by the Kasher award (among others). Our union has not & will not stand up and fight to get back what was stolen from this great group of pilots! Therefore, I think this is why you see such a hard stance against PBS here at the Eskimo.

This is so remarkably shortsighted, I'm actually stunned. The reason you're not onboard with PBS is "Management wants it... must be bad." Amazing.

Let's back up and see what you're defending. Alaska pilots spend more time than any other airline on bidding. You guys have more phases to your bid than Hobbits have mealtimes. 3 weeks devoted to your archaic paper methods. And no one gets what they want. You've got to spend time cold calling your fellow pilots trying to grease the days off you need. Why? You're shooting yourselves in the feet at this point.

You know how long VX spends on their bids? 3 days. An hour to put together your dates and preferences. Boom done. 3 days to wait until awards are published.

The fact that you're not devoting 3 weeks of your month to the dance you call "Line Bidding" is reason enough for everyone, including management, to be onboard.

Open your eyes. Your system sucks. And all because management wants it doesn't mean it's an automatic no.

flywest
02-20-2018, 03:24 PM
This is so remarkably shortsighted, I'm actually stunned. The reason you're not onboard with PBS is "Management wants it... must be bad." Amazing.

Let's back up and see what you're defending. Alaska pilots spend more time than any other airline on bidding. You guys have more phases to your bid than Hobbits have mealtimes. 3 weeks devoted to your archaic paper methods. And no one gets what they want. You've got to spend time cold calling your fellow pilots trying to grease the days off you need. Why? You're shooting yourselves in the feet at this point.

You know how long VX spends on their bids? 3 days. An hour to put together your dates and preferences. Boom done. 3 days to wait until awards are published.

The fact that you're not devoting 3 weeks of your month to the dance you call "Line Bidding" is reason enough for everyone, including management, to be onboard.

Open your eyes. Your system sucks. And all because management wants it doesn't mean it's an automatic no.

Embrace the suck. Enjoy your 12-14 day off line. Non-commutable. Unless the arbitrator gives you another windfall. All us 20+ year Alaskan Airways guys have been there done that.

BiloxiJack
02-20-2018, 03:30 PM
You are everything that is wrong with Alaska airlines. It isn't entirely B and B that bend us over...it is people like you that see them walking around and just grab the lube. Stop being such a coward and stand up for yourself..and that goes for everyone of your comrades who "embrace the suck" without doing anything about it.

Our "windfall" isn't the lottery winning that most of you think we got, a microscopic percentage of VX guys are happy to be Alaskan Airways pilots now. It is very much like getting too drunk at the bar and taking home the 230 girl who you thought was super hot and waking up to her mustache prickling your neck the next morning. Embrace the suck. Enjoy your 12-14 day off line. Non-commutable. Unless the arbitrator gives you another windfall. All us 20+ year Alaskan Airways guys have been there done that.

Jetlife
02-20-2018, 03:32 PM
This is so remarkably shortsighted, I'm actually stunned. The reason you're not onboard with PBS is "Management wants it... must be bad." Amazing.

Let's back up and see what you're defending. Alaska pilots spend more time than any other airline on bidding. You guys have more phases to your bid than Hobbits have mealtimes. 3 weeks devoted to your archaic paper methods. And no one gets what they want. You've got to spend time cold calling your fellow pilots trying to grease the days off you need. Why? You're shooting yourselves in the feet at this point.

You know how long VX spends on their bids? 3 days. An hour to put together your dates and preferences. Boom done. 3 days to wait until awards are published.

The fact that you're not devoting 3 weeks of your month to the dance you call "Line Bidding" is reason enough for everyone, including management, to be onboard.

Open your eyes. Your system sucks. And all because management wants it doesn't mean it's an automatic no.

Freaking bingo. AS doesnít want days off or flexibility. If their lives improved, what would they complain about?

Just a Lurker
02-20-2018, 03:40 PM
My prediction... Alaska management will go after a hard freeze of the DB plans next round. Theyíll push harder and harder, then suddenly offer to let the pilots keep the plans in exchange for PBS. To them, the cost savings of PBS will offset the declining costs of DB. After being pushed around and being terrified of losing DB, the Alaska MEC will LEAP at the chance, any chance, to save their plans. With the combination of VX, new hires who get PBS, and future pensioners, it will ratify. Voila - Alaska has PBS.

All of this debating in the interim is pointless. Itís Line Bidding until then. A better thread would be how to make Line Bidding better.

Jetlife
02-20-2018, 03:40 PM
Embrace the suck. Enjoy your 12-14 day off line. Non-commutable. Unless the arbitrator gives you another windfall. All us 20+ year Alaskan Airways guys have been there done that.

This is one of the more sad and pathetic things I have ever read on APC...

Jetlife
02-20-2018, 03:43 PM
A better thread would be how to make Line Bidding better.

Or make a thread about how to get snails to move faster.

Want to make line bidding better? Take it out in the back and shoot it, replace it with PBS. Done.

OCCP
02-20-2018, 04:07 PM
It amazes me how Alaska pilots hate their schedules but refuse to entertain better options.

Jetlife
02-20-2018, 04:09 PM
It amazes me how Alaska pilots hate their schedules but refuse to entertain better options.

I just hope that ďembrace the suckĒ doesnít become our 2020 contract negotiation slogan.

jayme
02-20-2018, 04:30 PM
It amazes me how Alaska pilots hate their schedules but refuse to entertain better options.

PBS does not equal better schedules.

Better pairings and/or work rules equals better schedules.

Pogey Bait
02-20-2018, 04:35 PM
I just hope that ďembrace the suckĒ doesnít become our 2020 contract negotiation slogan.

Here ya go:

https://www.amazon.com/Embrace-Suck-Morale-Patch-Desert/dp/B00AEVUVNG

Arctichicken
02-20-2018, 04:51 PM
PBS is not the "better option" by a huge margin, especially here at Alaska. If you want scheduling improvements, fly the contract then we can talk about better language. Until the company is willing to fix the optimizer to build pilot friendly pairings, no scheduling tool will improve one's QOL. It never seizes to amaze me that pilots are so short sighted and suffer from short term memory loss. For you newbies and VX pilots, remember the TPA and JCBA? For the rest of us, we will never forget Kasher and the rest. Bait and switch, boys and girls. PBS is a concession here at Alaska and also at SWA, allegedly.

Mudhen200
02-20-2018, 05:12 PM
Every one of the Native Alaska pilots above has spoken the truth about our management and why we are not even slightly interested in PBS. Not now, not ever - unless we have a massive change in the pilot / management relationship. Should that massive change take place, it would still take many years building enough trust to convince this pilot group that we can trust them with PBS. It is simply the truth - if our management wants it, then it is bad for you. Our management will not change, they will stick to this current business model. It will continue as is or it will fail. But above all, they will not spend one thin dime on making our QOL better. Soon young grasshopper you will learn. Someday you may even thank us for not letting PBS make your life even worse. I'm truly sorry for the pain that is coming to the X-VX pilot group. With 80% commuting to non-commutable lines is will indeed suck. PBS with this management would only make it worse. All I can say is that you are going to have to trust those of us who have been here a decade or two or three. This management is ruthless and they can not be trusted.

WutFace
02-20-2018, 05:22 PM
PBS is not the "better option" by a huge margin, especially here at Alaska. If you want scheduling improvements, fly the contract then we can talk about better language. Until the company is willing to fix the optimizer to build pilot friendly pairings, no scheduling tool will improve one's QOL. It never seizes to amaze me that pilots are so short sighted and suffer from short term memory loss. For you newbies and VX pilots, remember the TPA and JCBA? For the rest of us, we will never forget Kasher and the rest. Bait and switch, boys and girls. PBS is a concession here at Alaska and also at SWA, allegedly.

Absolutely incorrect. Just having the flexibility to pick your days of flying and where you go is a huge benefit.

Here's the takeaway, if you've spent your career at AK you can't speak to the PBS issue because you don't have any experience on the matter. Most of us at VX have had experience with both. It's night and day.

And whatever nightmare scenario you're imagining happening when you can pick the pairings you want because ALAKSA MGMT R MEANIES isn't supported by the facts of the system.

So relax, and look at it seriously. The pros outweigh the cons by a mile.

airb320
02-20-2018, 06:24 PM
Every one of the Native Alaska pilots above has spoken the truth about our management and why we are not even slightly interested in PBS. Not now, not ever - unless we have a massive change in the pilot / management relationship. Should that massive change take place, it would still take many years building enough trust to convince this pilot group that we can trust them with PBS. It is simply the truth - if our management wants it, then it is bad for you. Our management will not change, they will stick to this current business model. It will continue as is or it will fail. But above all, they will not spend one thin dime on making our QOL better. Soon young grasshopper you will learn. Someday you may even thank us for not letting PBS make your life even worse. I'm truly sorry for the pain that is coming to the X-VX pilot group. With 80% commuting to non-commutable lines is will indeed suck. PBS with this management would only make it worse. All I can say is that you are going to have to trust those of us who have been here a decade or two or three. This management is ruthless and they can not be trusted.

Let me get this straight, because of what you are using as a reason here you much rather spend endless hours and days in a month bidding for pathetic lines that you have 0 control over when you could be spending 1 hour a month and at least can pick the days off that you need with pathetic lines?!
Yah, that makes sense🙄 WOW just WOW

ASCapt
02-20-2018, 06:33 PM
Every one of the Native Alaska pilots above has spoken the truth about our management and why we are not even slightly interested in PBS. Not now, not ever - unless we have a massive change in the pilot / management relationship. Should that massive change take place, it would still take many years building enough trust to convince this pilot group that we can trust them with PBS. It is simply the truth - if our management wants it, then it is bad for you. Our management will not change, they will stick to this current business model. It will continue as is or it will fail. But above all, they will not spend one thin dime on making our QOL better. Soon young grasshopper you will learn. Someday you may even thank us for not letting PBS make your life even worse. I'm truly sorry for the pain that is coming to the X-VX pilot group. With 80% commuting to non-commutable lines is will indeed suck. PBS with this management would only make it worse. All I can say is that you are going to have to trust those of us who have been here a decade or two or three. This management is ruthless and they can not be trusted.

Been here a long time too. I bet we'll cave because lets face it that's what we do best.

WutFace
02-20-2018, 06:51 PM
Been here a long time too. I bet we'll cave because lets face it that's what we do best.

An observation:
Line bidding is a microcosm of life of an Alaska pilot.

It's an exercise in compromise and lower expectations. You never quite get the schedule you want or need, but you make your peace with it.
You don't fight improving it either, because you might just make it worse.

You guys have been captive so long you've forgotten what it's like to have a win. It would be funny if it wasn't so damn sad.

EskimoJoe
02-20-2018, 07:46 PM
This is so remarkably shortsighted, I'm actually stunned. The reason you're not onboard with PBS is "Management wants it... must be bad." Amazing.

Let's back up and see what you're defending. Alaska pilots spend more time than any other airline on bidding. You guys have more phases to your bid than Hobbits have mealtimes. 3 weeks devoted to your archaic paper methods. And no one gets what they want. You've got to spend time cold calling your fellow pilots trying to grease the days off you need. Why? You're shooting yourselves in the feet at this point.

You know how long VX spends on their bids? 3 days. An hour to put together your dates and preferences. Boom done. 3 days to wait until awards are published.

The fact that you're not devoting 3 weeks of your month to the dance you call "Line Bidding" is reason enough for everyone, including management, to be onboard.

Open your eyes. Your system sucks. And all because management wants it doesn't mean it's an automatic no.
Jesus Christ are some of you VX Guys thick headed. We know this management team and you guys DONíT!! Any discussion of PBS is a non starter because they will NEVER come to the table offering the protections we would require. They value control over virtually everything else. They micromanage down to the fraction of pennies here...about EVERYTHING. PBS will turn into your worst scheduling nightmare if we were dumb enough to give it to them. Thanks God you VX guys are the minority. You have no idea whom youíre dealing with.

2loud
02-20-2018, 08:05 PM
An observation:
Line bidding is a microcosm of life of an Alaska pilot.

It's an exercise in compromise and lower expectations. You never quite get the schedule you want or need, but you make your peace with it.
You don't fight improving it either, because you might just make it worse.

You guys have been captive so long you've forgotten what it's like to have a win. It would be funny if it wasn't so damn sad.
You definitely are the winner by default: 40%+ raise, 401K, SLI, possibility of PBS, etc. Itís playing out like a scene in a movie where the owner brings home a stray dog and before you know it, this dog acts like heís the king of the hill.

WutFace
02-20-2018, 08:42 PM
You definitely are the winner by default: 40%+ raise, 401K, SLI, possibility of PBS, etc. It’s playing out like a scene in a movie where the owner brings home a stray dog and before you know it, this dog acts like he’s the king of the hill.

This ain't a home. This is the pound. And someone's gotta test those fences, even if you're too old and tired to try anymore.

2loud
02-20-2018, 09:19 PM
This ain't a home. This is the pound. And someone's gotta test those fences, even if you're too old and tired to try anymore.

This place sure has turned into a pound. When a older dog warns the youngsters not to lick the electric fence, what do the ignorant juveniles do? Bam! Youíre dead.

Klsytakesit
02-20-2018, 10:00 PM
To the proponents of PBS. All of us original Eskimoes agree with you. A modern, flexible, dependable schedule building and management system would be great. If, after we sign Contract 2020(in 2022), and if it contains all of the enhancements, protections, improvements and control that we need to build this system then likely we will....To attempt it now is like going out on the water to build a houseboat without a boat....It can not be done...Period

Flitestar
02-20-2018, 10:30 PM
... Thanks God you VX guys are the minority. You have no idea whom youíre dealing with.

Easy now, donít be putting all of VX in the same boat. Iíve suffered PBS in my own flesh, and so have many others around here. I donít wanna see that crap anytime soon around here, especially with yallís management types.

Youíd be surprised how many of VX pilots on the line hate it. As much as Alaska may need a more modern way of bidding for schedules, PBS ainít it, not now at least.

Packrat
02-21-2018, 05:08 AM
Wut,

Have to agree with the AS guys here. Unless the Union Scheduling Committee has an input and/or control of the PBS program the result is going to be worse than line bidding.

As a Scheduling Committee veteran I can assure you AS managers will never, repeat NEVER allow the Union Scheduling Committee input into the PBS solution. They'll always find an excuse for crappy pairings and as a result, crappy lines.

Your experience with PBS at VX can't be extrapolated to AS.

airb320
02-21-2018, 05:59 AM
Wut,

Have to agree with the AS guys here. Unless the Union Scheduling Committee has an input and/or control of the PBS program the result is going to be worse than line bidding.

As a Scheduling Committee veteran I can assure you AS managers will never, repeat NEVER allow the Union Scheduling Committee input into the PBS solution. They'll always find an excuse for crappy pairings and as a result, crappy lines.

Your experience with PBS at VX can't be extrapolated to AS.

How can it be worse?
Have you seen the s..t you call lines?
Clueless, oh well...🤣

OCCP
02-21-2018, 08:06 AM
Easy now, donít be putting all of VX in the same boat. Iíve suffered PBS in my own flesh, and so have many others around here. I donít wanna see that crap anytime soon around here, especially with yallís management types.



Youíd be surprised how many of VX pilots on the line hate it. As much as Alaska may need a more modern way of bidding for schedules, PBS ainít it, not now at least.



If you hate VX pbs you just donít understand it.

KnockKnock
02-21-2018, 08:26 AM
Maybe this has been discussed before but I gotta ask, why is anyone openly advocating for something we hope to make management negotiate with us over? It seems counter productive to show our cards two years out. If you have 700 VX pilots already saying ďyesĒ to PBS, management has to offer up a fraction of what they would if we all said ďpound sandĒ. Love it, hate it or indifferent to it, we should all stop talking about it. With all this drum beating about sticking it to the man in 2020, Iím shocked how many pilots are already giving up big ticket items.

OCCP
02-21-2018, 09:39 AM
Iím not advocating giving up anything. Iím just not looking forward to the jcte and the QOL hit. It sucks that most Alaska pilots never stood up for themselves and now we all have to suffer because of it.

KnockKnock
02-21-2018, 10:19 AM
I canít speak for the guys thatíve been here longer than contract 2013 and their motives behind how they voted. Every airline has itís yesmen. I can say that weíve hired almost a quarter of the list in the last 4 years and pumped in a lot of new blood. Pilots like myself that are not content to just accept less. Iím of the mindset that we donít give them an inch unless we get a foot in return. So with this in mind, even if you want PBS and itís perceived benifit, we donít let management know what weíre thinking and make them negotiate for it. Saying yes to PBS now is no different than saying, today, what pay rate youíll accept two years from now. We gotta freeze this management out NOW.

Packrat
02-21-2018, 12:47 PM
How can it be worse?
Have you seen the s..t you call lines?
Clueless, oh well...��

Haven't seen the lines in 4 years or so. I just know that AS managers won't allow Union input into PBS.

pete2800
02-21-2018, 12:50 PM
Haven't seen the lines in 4 years or so. I just know that AS managers won't allow Union input into PBS.

BS.

There's an easy solution to that.

"Oh, we don't get any input into PBS? Alright, then you don't get PBS. And we're not signing off on your new uniforms either."



AS managers won't "allow" anything until we stop allowing them things either.

Yetifan
02-21-2018, 01:35 PM
Haven't seen the lines in 4 years or so. I just know that AS managers won't allow Union input into PBS.

This is the defeatist attitude that put Alaska pilots in this pathetic position in the first place. You seem to forgot that you guys/gals are the spearhead of the operation. You people desperately need a wake up call. Hopefully the VX guys will give you just that. My God, reading what you Alaska guys put on here is embarrassing for the industry as a whole...

plt32173
02-21-2018, 01:57 PM
Iím a VXer and have spent many months with 18+ days off. However this has nothing to do with PBS!!

Only has to do with a low credit threshold of 70hrs/high credit Trip. Our Flica PBS is a basic non-optimizing system that is operated in GOOD faith.

The previous pbs system I had was operated in a manner which allowed the company to unstack every day of the year. And the bottom 15% were Unstacked on every week. They used u stacking as a staffing tool. The pbs system optimized, which for those unfamiliar meant it awarded trips out of seniority order in order to make the pairings fit better. Every vendor optimizes differently but for example if a Jr pilot had Trip in their 1st preference they would get it over you who had it in their 10th. Flica doesnít do this it goes line for line through a pilots preference before it moves to the next pilot.

In order for me to even consider pbs I would at a minimum need rules on the following. I suggest all unfamiliar AS and Uniformed VX pilots get familiar with these terms as this will be our lives for a long time if we vote in a bad system.

Here what we should be asking for at a minimum

-Pilot built pairings

-Higher Trip rigs and min daily credit not averaged

-minimum reserve coverage

-a transparent Trip trading system that works

-a defined minimum credit threshold. Ex..They canít be allowed to raise it to 85+ every month because staffing dictates. (They donít take advantage of this that much at VX but previous company did)

-limits on unstacking

-non optimizing

-defined defaults. Ie. max work blocks, min days of between blocks, credit buffers between 117 regs, etc... And the ability to waive these default if wanted.


There are many more Iím missing but as Iím almost certain we will be voting on this in the next 5 years we all need to become much more educated on what else is out there and how bad pbs can be without he right rules in place.

pete2800
02-21-2018, 02:20 PM
Iím a VXer and have spent many months with 18+ days off. However this has nothing to do with PBS!!

Only has to do with a low credit threshold of 70hrs/high credit Trip. Our Flica PBS is a basic non-optimizing system that is operated in GOOD faith.

The previous pbs system I had was operated in a manner which allowed the company to unstack every day of the year. And the bottom 15% were Unstacked on every week. They used u stacking as a staffing tool. The pbs system optimized, which for those unfamiliar meant it awarded trips out of seniority order in order to make the pairings fit better. Every vendor optimizes differently but for example if a Jr pilot had Trip in their 1st preference they would get it over you who had it in their 10th. Flica doesnít do this it goes line for line through a pilots preference before it moves to the next pilot.

In order for me to even consider pbs I would at a minimum need rules on the following. I suggest all unfamiliar AS and Uniformed VX pilots get familiar with these terms as this will be our lives for a long time if we vote in a bad system.

Here what we should be asking for at a minimum

-Pilot built pairings

-Higher Trip rigs and min daily credit not averaged

-minimum reserve coverage

-a transparent Trip trading system that works

-a defined minimum credit threshold. Ex..They canít be allowed to raise it to 85+ every month because staffing dictates. (They donít take advantage of this that much at VX but previous company did)

-limits on unstacking

-non optimizing

-defined defaults. Ie. max work blocks, min days of between blocks, credit buffers between 117 regs, etc... And the ability to waive these default if wanted.


There are many more Iím missing but as Iím almost certain we will be voting on this in the next 5 years we all need to become much more educated on what else is out there and how bad pbs can be without he right rules in place.

Great post!

EskimoJoe
02-21-2018, 02:30 PM
Iím not advocating giving up anything. Iím just not looking forward to the jcte and the QOL hit. It sucks that most Alaska pilots never stood up for themselves and now we all have to suffer because of it.

Right. Hereís a lesson on Alaska Management. They will take any form of leverage they can and try to screw you to the floor with it. Exhibit A: There used to be this little start up in SFO whose pilots were non unionized, had no contract, and weíre willing to undercut the salaries of other pilots in comparable seats and equipment by roughly 50%. They also had a dubious relationship with foreign ownership laws that resulted in Alaska suing said start up, but thatís beside the point. Anyway, for two section 6 contract cycles, the native Alaska Pilots had to hear how we couldnít make any contractual gains thanks to the threat this SFO start up posed to our business model. Eventually, we, (by not much of a majority) voted to ratify two contracts that were sub par as a direct result of this start up and THEIR PILOTS WILLINGNESS to undercut the Industry they also disproportionately affected the Native Alaska Pilots due to the start ups fundamental route structure.

So, with that in mind. Iíd suggest that it was never Native Alaska pilots unwillingness to ďstand up for themselvesĒ it was more out of necessity in order to gain ANYTHING. Again due to the FACT that the pilots of this SFO start up were completely undermining the Piloting Profession combined with my companyís willingness to exploit that fact during sec. 6 negotiations and use the SFO start up as a lever against us.

So, in reality it was both the company AND this SFO start up that forced us bend to the bar they lowered. Luckily, that start up doesnít exist anymore but unfortunately, the damage their pilots caused, still does...despite whatever Bullschit revisionist history some would like to believe.

LineGrinder400
02-21-2018, 03:06 PM
If one were to simply go by this thread, youíd believe...

1) VX pilots were flying high with an industry leading pilot contract and an amazing PBS system fought tooth and nail for. That is until ALK, with their antiquated ways, acquired them.

2) ALK pilots are spineless cowards who canít see the light and are resigned to whatever Angle Lake decides to dictate next.

3) VX Pilots are the Lone Ranger coming into to save ALK pilots from themselves starting with selling them on the first of many silver bullets to a better work life...PBS.

While the ALK contract certainly has much to improve and fight like hell for, belief in the above points demonstrate a severe ignorance and tad condescending relating to VX pilot ďcontractĒ history and ALK pilot/management contract relations.

Hoping this ignorance subsides for the benefit of unity going into 2020.

flywest
02-21-2018, 03:56 PM
Right. Hereís a lesson on Alaska Management. They will take any form of leverage they can and try to screw you to the floor with it. Exhibit A: There used to be this little start up in SFO whose pilots were non unionized, had no contract, and weíre willing to undercut the salaries of other pilots in comparable seats and equipment by roughly 50%. They also had a dubious relationship with foreign ownership laws that resulted in Alaska suing said start up, but thatís beside the point. Anyway, for two section 6 contract cycles, the native Alaska Pilots had to hear how we couldnít make any contractual gains thanks to the threat this SFO start up posed to our business model. Eventually, we, (by not much of a majority) voted to ratify two contracts that were sub par as a direct result of this start up and THEIR PILOTS WILLINGNESS to undercut the Industry they also disproportionately affected the Native Alaska Pilots due to the start ups fundamental route structure.

So, with that in mind. Iíd suggest that it was never Native Alaska pilots unwillingness to ďstand up for themselvesĒ it was more out of necessity in order to gain ANYTHING. Again due to the FACT that the pilots of this SFO start up were completely undermining the Piloting Profession combined with my companyís willingness to exploit that fact during sec. 6 negotiations and use the SFO start up as a lever against us.

So, in reality it was both the company AND this SFO start up that forced us bend to the bar they lowered. Luckily, that start up doesnít exist anymore but unfortunately, the damage their pilots caused, still does...despite whatever Bullschit revisionist history some would like to believe.
Bravo, well said.

flywest
02-21-2018, 04:09 PM
Iím not advocating giving up anything. Iím just not looking forward to the jcte and the QOL hit. It sucks that most Alaska pilots never stood up for themselves and now we all have to suffer because of it.

Really like your contract was sooo much better. Oh that's right you had NO contract. Your rule book was at the bottom of every metric of the ALPA contract comparison. Including PAY! I guess you got/had some bad as_ PBS system that in the hands of the new boss will rock your world. Enjoy your pay bump and focus on 2020.

airb320
02-21-2018, 05:30 PM
Haven't seen the lines in 4 years or so. I just know that AS managers won't allow Union input into PBS.

So, you donít fly?
Otherwise this post makes 0 sense...

Just a Lurker
02-21-2018, 06:00 PM
Lost in all of this debate is the fact that there already is PBS on Alaska property. The FAs use NAVTECH, and they seem to like it. I donít hear them screaming about how Scheduling / management is using it to screw them at every turn. Why not? Itís the same people, the same trips, the same optimizer creating there pairings.

2loud
02-21-2018, 06:31 PM
Lost in all of this debate is the fact that there already is PBS on Alaska property. The FAs use NAVTECH, and they seem to like it. I donít hear them screaming about how Scheduling / management is using it to screw them at every turn. Why not? Itís the same people, the same trips, the same optimizer creating there pairings.

ďThey seem to like itĒ? Exactly what % of ďtheyĒ are you speaking of? And how many Alaska FAs have you surveyed? If ďtheyĒ are in the top 20%ish, then you are somewhat correct or if PBS is all they know. Itís simple boys and girls: if Alaska management wants PBS, itís beyond bad for this pilot group. Iím not here to divide and conquer but some of yíall VXers act as if you come from the greatest airline gig. VX was minor step above SkyWest, mainly because of the bigger iron, quicker upgrade, and a few more $ but not much else. Know yourself and know where you come from. Those of you with an inferiority complex may now lash out.

OCCP
02-21-2018, 06:49 PM
VX was far from the greatest airline, but so is Alaska. So now weíre just one big bottom feeding ďlegacyĒ! Spirit and frontier will soon be above us.

Just a Lurker
02-21-2018, 06:57 PM
Know yourself and know where you come from? Back at you pal. You assume VX is all of our only stop. Has it ever occurred to you that we just didnít beam out of nowhere? Guys with very long pedigrees on the VX side too, flying 73s and larger. I got checked out in a 73 over 20 years ago myself, and Iíve line bid before too. I get it. .. as for the FAs, prove me wrong.

ELAC321
02-21-2018, 07:24 PM
The PBS vs Line bidding is pointless without similar trip construction. VX has a high % of efficient trips. This is mostly due to 2 reasons, more transcons and relaxed work rules allowing the maxing out of 117 (ie long duty days, hotel standby for delays etc)

You'd be surprised how little PBS protections Delta United and others really have within their respective LOAs for PBS. They still get decent schedules. Why? Pairing construction and duty rigs/min day rigs.

Fight for minimum credit per DAY(not average and not per duty period) or a better trip rig and PBS or line bidding will be a moot point.

Chuckie
02-21-2018, 07:40 PM
Blah blah blah paint with broad brush strokes revisionist history blah blah blah

U mad bro? I'll bet you are AMAZING to fly with. Can't wait until the fences fall.

2loud
02-21-2018, 08:27 PM
VX was far from the greatest airline, but so is Alaska. So now weíre just one big bottom feeding ďlegacyĒ! Spirit and frontier will soon be above us.
Alaskan was once a great place to work and we were proud to call it a career. Post 9/11 up to Kasher, Ď05, we had good work rules and were the highest paid, mainly due to the big boy legacies being in bankruptcy. True, Alaskan isnít the greatest airline but I would never place Eskimo on the same playing field as Deadwood.
Know yourself and know where you come from? Back at you pal. You assume VX is all of our only stop. Has it ever occurred to you that we just didnít beam out of nowhere? Guys with very long pedigrees on the VX side too, flying 73s and larger. I got checked out in a 73 over 20 years ago myself, and Iíve line bid before too. I get it. .. as for the FAs, prove me wrong.
I get it. VX isnít your first rodeo, as with many other VXers. Educate me, pal, why anyone in their right mind would park at VX when there are so many better airlines? Did you really think VX was going to be the next SWA? Itís like eating every meal at Mickey Ds when there are far better options. Perhaps these establishments refused service for many of yíall. VX didnít turn a profit until 2016, correct?
In regards to Eskimo FAís PBS, do you know how they ended up with PBS, pal? They had a year trial period. The company and AFA agreed on a opt-out clause if things didnít work out after the trial period but due to a technicality they were forced to keep it, allegedly. Thereís a little taste of this ruthless management group for yíall! How about the numerous bid award appeals by FAs every month with no real recourse or accountability on part of crew planning?
I donít know how much interaction youíve had with Alaskan FAs but a good majority of mid to junior FAs whom Iíve worked with do not like PBS and Iíve been here much longer than VX has been around. As it has been relayed here numerous times, PBS in itself isnít a no-go but itís PBS + our current work rules, optimizer settings, and penny pinching pilot hating management.
The PBS vs Line bidding is pointless without similar trip construction. VX has a high % of efficient trips. This is mostly due to 2 reasons, more transcons and relaxed work rules allowing the maxing out of 117 (ie long duty days, hotel standby for delays etc)

You'd be surprised how little PBS protections Delta United and others really have within their respective LOAs for PBS. They still get decent schedules. Why? Pairing construction and duty rigs/min day rigs.

Fight for minimum credit per DAY(not average and not per duty period) or a better trip rig and PBS or line bidding will be a moot point.
+1. Work rules and pairing improvements are key factors, hence PBS discussions cannot take place until these things are drastically improved.

Moose
02-21-2018, 10:04 PM
Iím not advocating giving up anything. Iím just not looking forward to the jcte and the QOL hit. It sucks that most Alaska pilots never stood up for themselves and now we all have to suffer because of it.

You have no idea what youíre talking about.

Moose
02-21-2018, 10:11 PM
VX was far from the greatest airline, but so is Alaska. So now weíre just one big bottom feeding ďlegacyĒ! Spirit and frontier will soon be above us.

Sure buddy. Enjoy the raise. Just look at JetBlue negotiations and youíd see your future at Virgin America. Youíd be the top catfish in the pond.

WutFace
02-21-2018, 10:40 PM
Sure buddy. Enjoy the raise. Just look at JetBlue negotiations and youíd see your future at Virgin America. Youíd be the top catfish in the pond.

At least that pond isn't frozen. :D

Klsytakesit
02-21-2018, 11:49 PM
The BS about VX being the cause of our pathetic contract in 09 and again 13 is the stuff of urban legends.....We can thank ourselves for those contracts.....Hard sell by the VSA crowd, hard sell by the MEC, hard sell both times from negotiating committees badly beaten and suffering from acute Stockholm Syndrome. But most of all, our own refusal to ever stand strong. We have been the sad joke for every other pilot group that has stood strong...We are known as the french pilots... willing to surrender at a moments notice.....That said, to the vocal minority of former Virgin pilots selling PBS...Shut Up...It is DOA.
It may be revived in 2020, but only when the foundation and framework are in place....To the guy going on about the PBS program used by the stews....Most dont like it/hate it...And their pairings are completely different and how they get paid is completely different.

VirginEskimo
02-22-2018, 09:10 AM
Iím a VXer and have spent many months with 18+ days off. However this has nothing to do with PBS!!

Only has to do with a low credit threshold of 70hrs/high credit Trip. Our Flica PBS is a basic non-optimizing system that is operated in GOOD faith.

The previous pbs system I had was operated in a manner which allowed the company to unstack every day of the year. And the bottom 15% were Unstacked on every week. They used u stacking as a staffing tool. The pbs system optimized, which for those unfamiliar meant it awarded trips out of seniority order in order to make the pairings fit better. Every vendor optimizes differently but for example if a Jr pilot had Trip in their 1st preference they would get it over you who had it in their 10th. Flica doesnít do this it goes line for line through a pilots preference before it moves to the next pilot.

In order for me to even consider pbs I would at a minimum need rules on the following. I suggest all unfamiliar AS and Uniformed VX pilots get familiar with these terms as this will be our lives for a long time if we vote in a bad system.

Here what we should be asking for at a minimum

-Pilot built pairings

-Higher Trip rigs and min daily credit not averaged

-minimum reserve coverage

-a transparent Trip trading system that works

-a defined minimum credit threshold. Ex..They canít be allowed to raise it to 85+ every month because staffing dictates. (They donít take advantage of this that much at VX but previous company did)

-limits on unstacking

-non optimizing

-defined defaults. Ie. max work blocks, min days of between blocks, credit buffers between 117 regs, etc... And the ability to waive these default if wanted.


There are many more Iím missing but as Iím almost certain we will be voting on this in the next 5 years we all need to become much more educated on what else is out there and how bad pbs can be without he right rules in place.


This is the most cogent and well expressed argument against carte blanche PBS implementation I have seen. Due to poor life decisions, I am dependent on PBS to put together my specific schedule. I am able to spend 23 nights at home per month (the other seven trying to stay awake in the Airbus cockpit). In light of your analysis, I can see that I will certainly lose my current set up no matter what. Hoping for PBS to return soon after being negotiated for with the aforementioned safeguards. Till then Iíll reluctantly suck it up. Thanks for presenting your case so well rather than with the condescending ďYou VX guys just have to take our word for thingsĒ mentality I see on this thread so often.

flywest
02-22-2018, 09:47 AM
VX was far from the greatest airline, but so is Alaska. So now weíre just one big bottom feeding ďlegacyĒ! Spirit and frontier will soon be above us.

Quit *****ing, if your so butt hurt go to Delta. Do some union work. Grow up and be a man.

DangleDunlops
02-22-2018, 10:04 AM
Lost in all of this debate is the fact that there already is PBS on Alaska property. The FAs use NAVTECH, and they seem to like it. I donít hear them screaming about how Scheduling / management is using it to screw them at every turn. Why not? Itís the same people, the same trips, the same optimizer creating there pairings.

They got PBS about 8 years ago. More than 1/2 the FA seniority list doesn't know any different. And the rest enjoy picking cherries on PBS - if they can figure out the software and rules that are constantly changing. I lived the FA PBS transition in my own house. It destroyed bidding power, took days off, and was ruthless when unstacking. It was horrible. That was all before they destroyed OT trading in the latest contract, and took away vacation and sick counting towards credit and vacation accrual. All for a small increase in pay. The FA's need to be careful about accepting terms on their TA's because it has always been a slow erosion of their work-rules; the latest TA being no exception. The pilots got it all taken in one big swoop (kasher) and the company still wants more.

Look at it this way. If ASA pilot-staffing requirements go down by 10% by implementing PBS, they save a ton of money. I want most of that 10% windfall to go toward improving work rules, retaining vacation touching by awarding before vacation is considered. We can do that, we get more efficiency without cutting our legs off. We get more time with our families and they get PBS. It's ALL a negotiation. Admittedly, PBS will be a hard sell because I will be hyper-critical of the terms, or lack of terms, associated with it's implementation. We all should.

If you haven't read anything in this thread READ THIS:
Use facts to decide what you want and vote but please be informed. Let's all wait for details on what we're going to get for letting PBS on property. It's going to be a tall order for some pilots, and understandably so. It's our biggest bargaining chip at the moment, what's it worth? We decide.

airb320
02-22-2018, 10:19 AM
They got PBS about 8 years ago. More than 1/2 the FA seniority list doesn't know any different. And the rest enjoy picking cherries on PBS - if they can figure out the software and rules that are constantly changing. I lived the FA PBS transition in my own house. It destroyed bidding power, took days off, and was ruthless when unstacking. It was horrible. That was all before they destroyed OT trading in the latest contract, and took away vacation and sick counting towards credit and vacation accrual. All for a small increase in pay. The FA's need to be careful about accepting terms on their TA's because it has always been a slow erosion of their work-rules; the latest TA being no exception. The pilots got it all taken in one big swoop (kasher) and the company still wants more.

Look at it this way. If ASA pilot-staffing requirements go down by 10% by implementing PBS, they save a ton of money. I want most of that 10% windfall to go toward improving work rules, retaining vacation touching by awarding before vacation is considered. We can do that, we get more efficiency without cutting our legs off. We get more time with our families and they get PBS. It's ALL a negotiation. Admittedly, PBS will be a hard sell because I will be hyper-critical of the terms, or lack of terms, associated with it's implementation. We all should.

If you haven't read anything in this thread READ THIS:
Use facts to decide what you want and vote but please be informed. Let's all wait for details on what we're going to get for letting PBS on property. It's going to be a tall order for some pilots, and understandably so. It's our biggest bargaining chip at the moment, what's it worth? We decide.


Staffing wonít go down 10% !
It would if AS still had Trip drop by touching Vacation without having to pick up time to Ďcompleteí their schedule, but they donít.
The most Mgt. will see is 2-4%, if they think any different than they are clueless...

DashAviator
02-22-2018, 10:58 AM
Pretty funny about that staffing thing. Horizon management was pushing PBS pretty hard during our last round of contract negotiations (2016-2017). It backfired spectacularly over the summer, when we ended up with HUNDREDS of open trips. Apparently, management thought that PBS could magically fix their staffing issue. Instead, it only revealed how short we really were. This was accompanied by the untimely (but most welcome) departure of several of our senior managers.

OCCP
02-22-2018, 11:38 AM
Quit *****ing, if your so butt hurt go to Delta. Do some union work. Grow up and be a man.



Says the guy who screams DOH and wonít accept Alpa merger policy! Nice one

pete2800
02-22-2018, 11:40 AM
Pretty funny about that staffing thing. Horizon management was pushing PBS pretty hard during our last round of contract negotiations (2016-2017). It backfired spectacularly over the summer, when we ended up with HUNDREDS of open trips. Apparently, management thought that PBS could magically fix their staffing issue. Instead, it only revealed how short we really were. This was accompanied by the untimely (but most welcome) departure of several of our senior managers.
Yeah, that was a good one.

I was told by a QX friend that there was a month where PBS built zero reserve lines for PDX. That'll work! Haha...

DBCooper1968
02-22-2018, 01:18 PM
Iím a VXer and have spent many months with 18+ days off. However this has nothing to do with PBS!!

Only has to do with a low credit threshold of 70hrs/high credit Trip. Our Flica PBS is a basic non-optimizing system that is operated in GOOD faith.

The previous pbs system I had was operated in a manner which allowed the company to unstack every day of the year. And the bottom 15% were Unstacked on every week. They used u stacking as a staffing tool. The pbs system optimized, which for those unfamiliar meant it awarded trips out of seniority order in order to make the pairings fit better. Every vendor optimizes differently but for example if a Jr pilot had Trip in their 1st preference they would get it over you who had it in their 10th. Flica doesnít do this it goes line for line through a pilots preference before it moves to the next pilot.

In order for me to even consider pbs I would at a minimum need rules on the following. I suggest all unfamiliar AS and Uniformed VX pilots get familiar with these terms as this will be our lives for a long time if we vote in a bad system.

Here what we should be asking for at a minimum

-Pilot built pairings

-Higher Trip rigs and min daily credit not averaged

-minimum reserve coverage

-a transparent Trip trading system that works

-a defined minimum credit threshold. Ex..They canít be allowed to raise it to 85+ every month because staffing dictates. (They donít take advantage of this that much at VX but previous company did)

-limits on unstacking

-non optimizing

-defined defaults. Ie. max work blocks, min days of between blocks, credit buffers between 117 regs, etc... And the ability to waive these default if wanted.


There are many more Iím missing but as Iím almost certain we will be voting on this in the next 5 years we all need to become much more educated on what else is out there and how bad pbs can be without he right rules in place.

Very Good Post! I have no problem exploring PBS at Alaska if the right rules are in place. I've had PBS at previous airlines and it is fine so long as the work rules are in place.

For you guys at VX, PBS has nothing to do with your 18 day off schedules. Zippo! Don't let this confuse you. Your great schedules are
a product of flying a high percentage of productive transcons and lower line values it sounds like.

I heard a number of your flights peeling off those transcons last week and stopping for gas in Colorado Springs, Kansas City, etc. because they couldn't make it from BOS to SFO in those high winds.

Alaska has made it very clear that they intend to optimize the route system this Spring. So, when you soon start flying many more short segments (Alaska has a ton of them) and you are flying 85 hours per month (No one flies less than 80 at Alaska, not even most reserves) we shall see how those days off work out for you.

Galaxy5
02-22-2018, 03:51 PM
Pretty funny about that staffing thing. Horizon management was pushing PBS pretty hard during our last round of contract negotiations (2016-2017). It backfired spectacularly over the summer, when we ended up with HUNDREDS of open trips. Apparently, management thought that PBS could magically fix their staffing issue. Instead, it only revealed how short we really were. This was accompanied by the untimely (but most welcome) departure of several of our senior managers.



Yes, and that VP of Flight Ops was from VX, too, so you can see how these Virgin ideas will continue to ruin things at Alaska.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DashAviator
02-22-2018, 04:13 PM
I'm not blaming Virgin. With the acquisition of Virgin, it seems like there's a surplus of useless management types running around... some of them end up at Horizon. A.k.a., "the retirement job". I'm just astounded that some of these clowns can run a company into the ground, then jump ship for another management gig.

Regarding Virgin and Alaska, there is NOTHING senior management would like better than seeing the two pilot groups fighting away like two junkyard dogs. The SLI is sure to be contentious, but remember who the real enemy is here. The two pilot groups can be a powerful force if they can agree to work together.

TripleCrank
02-22-2018, 06:14 PM
The debate concerning which is/was a better airline to work for AS or VX need to stop. The ship has sailed, VX is no more, we are all in the same boat now and need to come together as a unified pilot group.

Riverside
02-22-2018, 08:32 PM
Does it bother anyone that Skywest flies our colors into DCA?

FogHorn
02-22-2018, 09:18 PM
Does it bother anyone that Skywest flies our colors into DCA?

From where? I know theyíre doing LGA. And yes.

Riverside
02-23-2018, 08:19 AM
From where? I know theyíre doing LGA. And yes.

I believe it came from DAL. I know VX did that route, also from LGA to DAL.

TripleCrank
02-24-2018, 05:38 AM
Does it bother anyone that Skywest flies our colors into DCA?

Yes.

Filler.

pete2800
02-24-2018, 12:35 PM
Does it bother anyone that Skywest flies our colors?

Fixed.

Yes.

airb320
02-24-2018, 03:20 PM
AS replaced Mainline Jets (VX) with RJís on DCA and LGA routes out of Dallas.
Scope people, Scope !

AltoCumulus
02-28-2018, 07:37 PM
ďThey seem to like itĒ? Exactly what % of ďtheyĒ are you speaking of? And how many Alaska FAs have you surveyed? If ďtheyĒ are in the top 20%ish, then you are somewhat correct or if PBS is all they know. Itís simple boys and girls: if Alaska management wants PBS, itís beyond bad for this pilot group. Iím not here to divide and conquer but some of yíall VXers act as if you come from the greatest airline gig. VX was minor step above SkyWest, mainly because of the bigger iron, quicker upgrade, and a few more $ but not much else. Know yourself and know where you come from. Those of you with an inferiority complex may now lash out.

They had a trial period and a vote to retain PBS which was over 80% in favor. I havenít checked recently, but for awhile, they had contract language that they could revert back to line bidding upon notice of the FA MEC.

AwkwardTurtle
03-01-2018, 05:27 AM
FedEx pilots still line bid. FedEx pilots have good work rules. FedEx pilots have the most time off.

SkyWest pilots use PBS. SkyWest pilots have worse than horse$hit work rules. SkyWest pilots have almost no time off.

It's not a PBS or Line thing, it's a work rule thing. Once you let the cat out of the bag (going PBS) there's no going back. Get the work rules, the line will improve without going PBS.

rickair7777
03-01-2018, 06:56 AM
SkyWest pilots use PBS. SkyWest pilots have worse than horse$hit work rules. SkyWest pilots have almost no time off.

PBS was great at SKW at first (IMO). Over time, as they thinned staffing, PBS with no rules allowed them to keep increasing the tempo of the drummer, and the rowers have had to keep up.


It's not a PBS or Line thing, it's a work rule thing. Once you let the cat out of the bag (going PBS) there's no going back. Get the work rules, the line will improve without going PBS.

Correct, I've lived it both ways. I really liked PBS with appropriate rules and/or staffing.

But I'd rather have the rules first, regardless of the bidding mechanism. Then good rules could be *carefully* translated into PBS rules/parameters.

airb320
03-01-2018, 07:58 AM
FedEx pilots still line bid. FedEx pilots have good work rules. FedEx pilots have the most time off.

SkyWest pilots use PBS. SkyWest pilots have worse than horse$hit work rules. SkyWest pilots have almost no time off.

It's not a PBS or Line thing, it's a work rule thing. Once you let the cat out of the bag (going PBS) there's no going back. Get the work rules, the line will improve without going PBS.

Then letís get better rules and get PBS!

Your argument against it is as ridiculous as AS holding on to the ĎDinoí Jet because BTís dad worked there for 30+ years...
You guys must love living in the past🙄
Remember time moves forward, things improve... time to wake up and get with the times folks😉

EskimoJoe
03-01-2018, 01:27 PM
Then letís get better rules and get PBS!

Your argument against it is as ridiculous as AS holding on to the ĎDinoí Jet because BTís dad worked there for 30+ years...
You guys must love living in the past🙄
Remember time moves forward, things improve... time to wake up and get with the times folks😉

Great!! Good Luck with that. Wait until 2020...You're education will begin at the same time as contract openers. You guys don't know who you're dealing with. You will.

Jetlife
03-01-2018, 01:28 PM
Great!! Good Luck with that. Wait until 2020...You're education will begin at the same time as contract openers. You guys don't know who you're dealing with. You will.

You only get what you fight for. Don't have what you want? Blame the pilot group, not management.

lowflying
03-01-2018, 01:28 PM
Then letís get better rules and get PBS!

Your argument against it is as ridiculous as AS holding on to the ĎDinoí Jet because BTís dad worked there for 30+ years...
You guys must love living in the past🙄
Remember time moves forward, things improve... time to wake up and get with the times folks😉

I'll make you a deal, you throw in scope, some massive scheduling improvements and laundry list of other things and we'll consider voting for PBS as long as we get ironclad PBS language. If you want PBS then you have to make us an offer we can't pass up.

Jetlife
03-01-2018, 01:31 PM
I'll make you a deal, you throw in scope, some massive scheduling improvements and laundry list of other things and we'll consider voting for PBS as long as we get ironclad PBS language. If you want PBS then you have to make us an offer we can't pass up.

The company wants it, lots of pilots want it. That means we can come to a mutually beneficial agreement to implement it. If we can't, they don't get it. Pretty simple. I love PBS but I don't want it without control of it. The company will save lots of money by going PBS, get lots more utilization etc. so if we get more flexibility and good language to control PBS, I am all for it.

airb320
03-01-2018, 03:43 PM
Great!! Good Luck with that. Wait until 2020...You're education will begin at the same time as contract openers. You guys don't know who you're dealing with. You will.

Apparently you donít either because you keep rolling over😉

flywest
03-01-2018, 04:04 PM
Says the guy who screams DOH and wonít accept Alpa merger policy! Nice one

I accept ALPA merger policy. I just think it should be date of hire, that's all. What would have SWA given you guys......You should be somewhat happy.

lowflying
03-01-2018, 04:14 PM
The company wants it, lots of pilots want it. That means we can come to a mutually beneficial agreement to implement it. If we can't, they don't get it. Pretty simple. I love PBS but I don't want it without control of it. The company will save lots of money by going PBS, get lots more utilization etc. so if we get more flexibility and good language to control PBS, I am all for it.

Well, as long as you, your friends and the company are happy we can skip scope and settle for some more "flexibility."

KnockKnock
03-01-2018, 08:14 PM
Yeah no $#!t. The agreement won't be be so mutually beneficial if the company knows they already have 800+ yes PBS votes.

SoCalAirlifter
03-02-2018, 12:29 PM
You only get what you fight for. Don't have what you want? Blame the pilot group, not management.


Slowdown Jetlife! You need to understand something before you blame the pilots. Our union has a history of being waaaaaay too close to Eskimo Mgmt! Our union sold us down the river by voting in block representation years ago. This gave the larger base more voting power....in our case, Seattle. So, anytime we vote on something, Seattle swings the vote because they have the power. Management convinces SEA pilots to vote for it and......WHAMO!

I cannot confirm it, but it is my understanding the AK Union convinced the VA Union to keep block representation as well. If this is true.....hmmmmm, politics at its finest.

Our only hope........the increased size in the LAX base and the gaining of an SFO base (the ďCali basesĒ) as well as NYC base, we NEED to do whatever it takes to avoid a Seattle swing vote by staying together to minimize the Seattle dominance.

Step one clean house in our union (which I believe is happening now). Step 2, Unify the pilot group for 2020......get some work rules back that were STOLEN as a result from Kasher arbitration. THEN, once work rules are in place, AND ONLY THEN, we come to the table talk PBS and our expectations of how it will be run.

Packrat
03-02-2018, 01:04 PM
Our union sold us down the river by voting in block representation years ago. This gave the larger base more voting power....in our case, Seattle.

It wasn't "our Union". It was one MEC Chairman who wanted to be the first passenger airline in ALPA with block representation and sold it to the MEC.

Under the old system, SEA ALWAYS had more voting power. All they had to do was ask for a roll call vote. In that case, the SEA reps could vote 900 votes for the way they wanted the issue to go.

All block representation did was remove the MEC vote from one of the LEC reps. Usually that was the F/O rep because all bases have more Capts. than F/Os.

Block representation essentially disenfranchised the junior pilots at the smaller bases. They could attend the MEC meetings. They could express their opinions. But when it came time to vote on an issue they were excluded.

Before block representation each base had two votes, Capt. and F/O. Issues were decided by simple majority of six voters with the MEC Chair empowered to break ties. Everyone's opinion was heard and their vote accounted for.

Unlike USAir where every vote was roll called, it was virtually unheard of at the Alaska MEC. SEA always had the power, they just didn't exercise it.

In fact, I can only remember one time when it was used. That was to elect a Jet A pilot as MEC Chairman when the SEA Capt. rep was conveniently on vacation and didn't leave his roll call proxy to the F/O rep.

SoCalAirlifter
03-04-2018, 08:31 PM
It wasn't "our Union". It was one MEC Chairman who wanted to be the first passenger airline in ALPA with block representation and sold it to the MEC.

Under the old system, SEA ALWAYS had more voting power. All they had to do was ask for a roll call vote. In that case, the SEA reps could vote 900 votes for the way they wanted the issue to go.

All block representation did was remove the MEC vote from one of the LEC reps. Usually that was the F/O rep because all bases have more Capts. than F/Os.

Block representation essentially disenfranchised the junior pilots at the smaller bases. They could attend the MEC meetings. They could express their opinions. But when it came time to vote on an issue they were excluded.

Before block representation each base had two votes, Capt. and F/O. Issues were decided by simple majority of six voters with the MEC Chair empowered to break ties. Everyone's opinion was heard and their vote accounted for.

Unlike USAir where every vote was roll called, it was virtually unheard of at the Alaska MEC. SEA always had the power, they just didn't exercise it.

In fact, I can only remember one time when it was used. That was to elect a Jet A pilot as MEC Chairman when the SEA Capt. rep was conveniently on vacation and didn't leave his roll call proxy to the F/O rep.

Packrat, thanks for the correction & clarification.

My main concern and takeaway for our new VA brethren is this: all the power lies with Seattle and a union (who in the past) have taken what the company wants and sold it to the pilots.

How else can one explain how we see the likes of a former MEC Rep end up as the Chief Pilot once the first post Kasher contract passed.

Klsytakesit
03-22-2018, 09:19 PM
So now that yíall have experienced Alaska Airlines running your PBS for you how is it going. Everyone still getting commutable 85hr 18 day off lines?
Here is what the Alaska base chief pilots are saying ,ĒWhen we took over and got a good look at how Virgin scheduled pilots we found lots of opportunity for improvement. So much that we wont need to put anybody in the Airbus for awhileĒ.
I have heard that two different times now. Curious what that means for Airbus crews.

Flitestar
03-22-2018, 10:06 PM
Alaska is not running VX’s PBS yet.

Klsytakesit
03-23-2018, 05:17 AM
For the last two months. According to crew planning. And the first Alaska crew schedulers are active with it as of two weeks ago. All from the Alaska base chief pilots.

plt32173
03-23-2018, 08:08 AM
So now that yíall have experienced Alaska Airlines running your PBS for you how is it going. Everyone still getting commutable 85hr 18 day off lines?
Here is what the Alaska base chief pilots are saying ,ĒWhen we took over and got a good look at how Virgin scheduled pilots we found lots of opportunity for improvement. So much that we wont need to put anybody in the Airbus for awhileĒ.
I have heard that two different times now. Curious what that means for Airbus crews.

They will be bidding the 73 in October if life is better over ther for them. Airbus will go jr to new hires.

Pogey Bait
03-23-2018, 08:59 AM
For the last two months. According to crew planning. And the first Alaska crew schedulers are active with it as of two weeks ago. All from the Alaska base chief pilots.

If this is true then I will let you know on April 10th. So far if it has only been a couple of weeks, like you say, then we are not currently flying what Alaska is dishing out. If crew planning has been screwing with our schedules for two months, then no, my schedule has not changed, plenty of days off. April schedule came out on March 10th.

Knucklehead
03-23-2018, 09:12 AM
So now that yíall have experienced Alaska Airlines running your PBS for you how is it going. Everyone still getting commutable 85hr 18 day off lines?
Here is what the Alaska base chief pilots are saying ,ĒWhen we took over and got a good look at how Virgin scheduled pilots we found lots of opportunity for improvement. So much that we wont need to put anybody in the Airbus for awhileĒ.
I have heard that two different times now. Curious what that means for Airbus crews.

April. 85 hours 16 days off. 3 Commutable 4 days and an easy 2 day. Weekends off.

VirginEskimo
03-23-2018, 09:22 AM
April: 75 hours, one week vacay. Five 24 hour layovers at home. 16 days off plus the 5 layover days is 21 at home. All commutable. (Iíll take the bullet for the negotiators if necessary but hate being lectured about how line bidding is our best bet)

Flitestar
03-23-2018, 10:01 AM
For the last two months. According to crew planning. And the first Alaska crew schedulers are active with it as of two weeks ago. All from the Alaska base chief pilots.

AS may be slowly trickling down their tentacles into the department, but they are not running it yet, at least in a way that would affect current VX schedules, which was the OPís initial concern.

Expect schedules to go to hell soon though, particularly as soon as VX makes the switch to AS line bidding.

WutFace
03-23-2018, 10:45 AM
I don't get it. There's this vibe that AS pilots are almost giddy to pull the Virgin pilots down to their quality of life.

Why not try to elevate yours instead of pulling VX down?

busbusbaby
03-23-2018, 10:51 AM
So now that yíall have experienced Alaska Airlines running your PBS for you how is it going. Everyone still getting commutable 85hr 18 day off lines?
Here is what the Alaska base chief pilots are saying ,ĒWhen we took over and got a good look at how Virgin scheduled pilots we found lots of opportunity for improvement. So much that we wont need to put anybody in the Airbus for awhileĒ.
I have heard that two different times now. Curious what that means for Airbus crews.
Complete BS!!! 19 days off not flying 85 it was my choice.

OCCP
03-23-2018, 11:23 AM
I don't get it. There's this vibe that AS pilots are almost giddy to pull the Virgin pilots down to their quality of life.

Why not try to elevate yours instead of pulling VX down?



This is so true. But itís about what I expect.

flysnoopy76
03-23-2018, 02:08 PM
Those lines in LAX on the 737 with 10 days off sure look appealing. 😞

airb320
03-23-2018, 03:24 PM
So now that yíall have experienced Alaska Airlines running your PBS for you how is it going. Everyone still getting commutable 85hr 18 day off lines?
Here is what the Alaska base chief pilots are saying ,ĒWhen we took over and got a good look at how Virgin scheduled pilots we found lots of opportunity for improvement. So much that we wont need to put anybody in the Airbus for awhileĒ.
I have heard that two different times now. Curious what that means for Airbus crews.

Yup, still getting 18 days off and 72-75 hr. Which gets me three 4 day trips as always... maybe its the ****ty AS contract rules that screw it up for you guys. We still operate under our PRB sections 5,6 & 7...😉

KnockKnock
03-23-2018, 03:25 PM
I donít think it has anything to do with bringing exVX pilots ďdown toĒ AS levels. I think the OP and others are just trying to point out that PBS wonít offer the same QOL now that BnB have control of it. I donít think the Bus pilots will really feel the drastic change until after April 25th when single PSS happens. Reading BMís latest email, thatís when they redirect the Bus to a more north south schedule. Thatís when the shine comes off your current PBS system and they squeeze every ounce of productivity out of you.

KnockKnock
03-23-2018, 03:37 PM
I donít think it has anything to do with bringing down exVX pilots down to AS levels. I think the OP is just trying to point out that PBS wonít offer the same QOL now that BnB have control of it. I doubt the Bus pilots will see a drastic change until after April 25th when single PSS happens and they redirect the Bus to a more north south structure. Thatís when the shine comes off your current PBS QOL and they squeeze every once of productivity out of you...

Pogey Bait
03-23-2018, 03:49 PM
Those lines in LAX on the 737 with 10 days off sure look appealing. 😞

Thatís worse than a crappy regional.

KnockKnock
03-23-2018, 03:59 PM
We get min 12 days off per the contract and I donít see any LAX line with less then 13 off for April. What lines with 10 days off are you referring to?

Jetlife
03-23-2018, 04:01 PM
13 days off, ugh... we literally average an entire month off more a year than your average. :(

KnockKnock
03-23-2018, 04:07 PM
Who said anything about average? From what I see, only the last 2 lines in the bid packet have 13 off. It was said LAX had 10 day off lines. Thatís not true.

KnockKnock
03-23-2018, 04:16 PM
I stand corrected. I looked at the end of the packet. For some reason the lines are all scattered and not in the usual ďdays offĒ order. It looks like theyíre using some 24+ hr overnights as days off and yeah thatís sh!tty. I donít know how they can get around the 12 days off per contract. If itís any conciliation, Iíve only been here 3 yrs and easily get 16+ days off flying the trips I want. Itís not all doom and gloom.

airb320
03-23-2018, 04:29 PM
13 days off, ugh... we literally average an entire month off more a year than your average. :(

Those are 13 days off if you are a non-commuter, looking at the lines you will be lucky to be home (full days) for 8-9 which is unacceptable!

OCCP
03-23-2018, 05:03 PM
How can they count a 24hr layover as a day off? Is that allowed?

AltoCumulus
03-23-2018, 05:05 PM
We get min 12 days off per the contract and I donít see any LAX line with less then 13 off for April. What lines with 10 days off are you referring to?

Not true.

Section 25 c. 3

Days off (BBH): 4 - 48 hour periods in base free of duty.

I asked my 3rd grader and she said 4x2=8 days off minimum.

KnockKnock
03-23-2018, 05:09 PM
You had to ask your 3rd grader that 2x4=8?

Flitestar
03-23-2018, 05:13 PM
...Why not try to elevate yours instead of pulling VX down?

I agree with that. And I hope that starting in 2020 we can start fighting for it.

But Iím pretty sure schedules here at VX are going to go south soon enough...

flysnoopy76
03-23-2018, 05:16 PM
We get min 12 days off per the contract and I donít see any LAX line with less then 13 off for April. What lines with 10 days off are you referring to?

I might be reading it wrong but looking at the April lines for the 737 in LAX, on the pilot website, it looks like several have only 10 days off.

KnockKnock
03-23-2018, 05:20 PM
Youíre right, I looked at the end of the bid packet. Theyíre scattered in the middle. Iíve not seen those 10 day off lines before. That is garbage and hope itís not a sigh of things to come.

airb320
03-23-2018, 05:35 PM
Not true.

Section 25 c. 3

Days off (BBH): 4 - 48 hour periods in base free of duty.

I asked my 3rd grader and she said 4x2=8 days off minimum.

Your ALPA team that came up with crap like that needs to be fired

Klsytakesit
03-23-2018, 07:10 PM
I could care less about what you are getting.... Just trying verify or call BS on the base mini-me managers on the Boeing side....And no one is trying to drag you down....We on the Boeing side know who we work for...And at least in my 19 years the complete lack of unity coupled with a huge dose of misplaced ego and a management negotiating team second to none has left us with the empty shell we call a contract .....Good luck on the Airbus side

Ispeakjive
03-23-2018, 08:29 PM
I could care less about what you are getting.... Just trying verify or call BS on the base mini-me managers on the Boeing side....And no one is trying to drag you down....We on the Boeing side know who we work for...And at least in my 19 years the complete lack of unity coupled with a huge dose of misplaced ego and a management negotiating team second to none has left us with the empty shell we call a contract .....Good luck on the Airbus side

Four 4-days this month for 90+. All commutable on the front, but none on the back.

Ispeakjive
03-23-2018, 08:35 PM
I accept ALPA merger policy. I just think it should be date of hire, that's all. What would have SWA given you guys......You should be somewhat happy.

Its not SWA, its another ALPA carrier. I am happy. Happy that you are not a decision maker.

AltoCumulus
03-24-2018, 08:18 AM
You had to ask your 3rd grader that 2x4=8?

Well, others on here keep insisting that 2x4 = 12. Responsible union members know their contract, so I had to give them the benefit of the doubt and presume that they are making a simple math error. Nobody else is correcting them. Everybody quoting a number seemed so sure I wanted to make sure I wasnít wrong. Math is hard, I get it. No problem.

KnockKnock
03-24-2018, 10:01 AM
My error was mixing up guaranteed rsv days off with bid block holders days off. Iím so totally mortified at my mistake and my forever tarnished union membership. Iím a horrible human. Thank you for correcting me oh infallible one. I see why you consult your 3rd grader. Your playground, passive aggressive, snark is really good stuff...

opdeliber
03-24-2018, 10:05 AM
Thank you for your apology, now please apologize for your apology. Iím both triggered and offended. My error was mixing up guaranteed rsv days off with bid block holders days off. Iím so totally mortified at my mistake and my forever tarnished union membership. Iím a horrible human. Thank you for correcting me oh infallible one. I see why you consult your 3rd grader. Your playground, passive aggressive, snark is really good stuff...

KnockKnock
03-24-2018, 10:47 AM
Yessss, way to put the PC back into APC. Well played.

AltoCumulus
03-24-2018, 11:47 AM
My error was mixing up guaranteed rsv days off with bid block holders days off. Iím so totally mortified at my mistake and my forever tarnished union membership. Iím a horrible human. Thank you for correcting me oh infallible one. I see why you consult your 3rd grader. Your playground, passive aggressive, snark is really good stuff...

I gave you a direct contract quote...I tried to keep it light by including my daughter. You gave me a snarky reply about my math abilities. You got a little bit back. I have no power over your union membership status nor did I make any comment about your status as a human...that was you.

Now can we move on and take my broader point that the contract knowledge on the line is lacking. We canít defend nor improve our contract (regardless of how pathetic the terms) unless ALL of us actually knows what it says and holds the company to those terms and demand the MEC work to improve them.

My comment was never meant as a personal attack on you as I am sure if you asked 100 pilots on the line what our minimum days off contractually I bet more than 1/2 would say 12, most of the rest might say no minimum, very few people would come up with 8.

rickair7777
03-24-2018, 12:36 PM
I donít think it has anything to do with bringing down exVX pilots down to AS levels. I think the OP is just trying to point out that PBS wonít offer the same QOL now that BnB have control of it. I doubt the Bus pilots will see a drastic change until after April 25th when single PSS happens and they redirect the Bus to a more north south structure. Thatís when the shine comes off your current PBS QOL and they squeeze every once of productivity out of you...

Nobody thinks the union should just hand PBS to the company, it would of course need tight contractual controls. If that can't happen, then maybe line bidding would be better. But the objective should be PBS with controls, since that would maximize QOL and lifestyle flexibility.

Bugaboo
03-24-2018, 03:29 PM
My error was mixing up guaranteed rsv days off with bid block holders days off. Iím so totally mortified at my mistake and my forever tarnished union membership. Iím a horrible human. Thank you for correcting me oh infallible one. I see why you consult your 3rd grader. Your playground, passive aggressive, snark is really good stuff...

God gosh guys....grow up

snackysmores
03-24-2018, 03:41 PM
At Horizon we have PBS with "ironclad" language and I find it vastly inferior to line bidding.

KnockKnock
03-24-2018, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=AltoCumulus;2557891]I gave you a direct contract quote...I tried to keep it light by including my daughter. You gave me a snarky reply about my math abilities. You got a little bit back. I have no power over your union membership status nor did I make any comment about your status as a human...that was you.

Now can we move on and take my broader point that the contract knowledge on the line is lacking. We canít defend nor improve our contract (regardless of how pathetic the terms) unless ALL of us actually knows what it says and holds the company to those terms and demand the MEC work to improve them.

My comment was never meant as a personal attack on you as I am sure if you asked 100 pilots on the line what our minimum days off contractually I bet more than 1/2 would say 12, most of the rest might say no minimum, very few people would come up with 8.[/QUOTE

Lost in translation I guess but when youíre saying ďresponsible union members know their contractĒ using my quote, I gotta assume youíre inferring Iím an irresponsible union member because I mistook one thing for another. When you tell me that even your 3rd grader knows 2x4=8, I gotta assume youíre comparing my math skills to your daughters for some reason. I donít mind one bit being corrected on contract language. In fact I invite it. Iíd love to have an ironclad understanding of the contract and I agree we should all have a better understanding of our CBA. All I did was lob your ďperceivedĒ sarcasm back at you. No harm no foul.

Cruz5350
03-25-2018, 11:17 PM
Min days off mean nothing when you get extended into days off.... ask me how I know....

Beta82
03-26-2018, 08:38 AM
Not true.

Section 25 c. 3

Days off (BBH): 4 - 48 hour periods in base free of duty.



This needs to be the first page put into the fire in 2020. This is an amazingly destructive gem to flexibility and scheduling. How about no less than 2 days off after a work block? Doesn't that accomplish the same goal? If you want more time off, put in a minimum days off clause. My vote is to shoot for a minimum of 14 days off month; if you get extended into a day off they will take a day off another trip or give you an extra day off.

Max Thrust
03-27-2018, 01:45 PM
Not true.

Section 25 c. 3

Days off (BBH): 4 - 48 hour periods in base free of duty.

I asked my 3rd grader and she said 4x2=8 days off minimum.

I would argue that itís actually only 4 days off. 3pm Tuesday to 3pm Thursday is a 48 hour period yet only really providing Wednesday off.

squall line
05-06-2018, 08:08 AM
Iím a VXer and have spent many months with 18+ days off. However this has nothing to do with PBS!!

Only has to do with a low credit threshold of 70hrs/high credit Trip. Our Flica PBS is a basic non-optimizing system that is operated in GOOD faith.

The previous pbs system I had was operated in a manner which allowed the company to unstack every day of the year. And the bottom 15% were Unstacked on every week. They used u stacking as a staffing tool. The pbs system optimized, which for those unfamiliar meant it awarded trips out of seniority order in order to make the pairings fit better. Every vendor optimizes differently but for example if a Jr pilot had Trip in their 1st preference they would get it over you who had it in their 10th. Flica doesnít do this it goes line for line through a pilots preference before it moves to the next pilot.

In order for me to even consider pbs I would at a minimum need rules on the following. I suggest all unfamiliar AS and Uniformed VX pilots get familiar with these terms as this will be our lives for a long time if we vote in a bad system.

Here what we should be asking for at a minimum

-Pilot built pairings

-Higher Trip rigs and min daily credit not averaged

-minimum reserve coverage

-a transparent Trip trading system that works

-a defined minimum credit threshold. Ex..They canít be allowed to raise it to 85+ every month because staffing dictates. (They donít take advantage of this that much at VX but previous company did)

-limits on unstacking

-non optimizing

-defined defaults. Ie. max work blocks, min days of between blocks, credit buffers between 117 regs, etc... And the ability to waive these default if wanted.


There are many more Iím missing but as Iím almost certain we will be voting on this in the next 5 years we all need to become much more educated on what else is out there and how bad pbs can be without he right rules in place.



Just to expand on your one thought. Min reserve coverage per base per seat. Gotta have it

Beta82
05-08-2018, 07:53 AM
Just so the VX people know. We can see the 73's horrible lines on the pilot website under crew planning>bid packages. I just about started to cry when I saw the lines at my seniority, such a sense of despair. 14 days off until well over 50% in SEA. There is such an amazing destruction to QOL that we need to be prepared if this is whats going to happen in October.

It's real simple for 2020. Get rid of the asinine BS like can't fly a leg before or after a transcon, 4 48 hour periods off, etc.

5.5 hours per day credit, period. No averages. No silly stuff. You show up that calendar day you get paid 5.5.
Max number of hours (75) out of PBS every month, nothing more. You can bid to work more more if you want.
3/1 trip rig.


With these, the company HAS to build efficient pairings. It's time for the Stockholm syndrome to go away, enough is enough.

Mudhen200
05-08-2018, 08:03 AM
I like the way you think Beta 82 !
May it be so!
Problem is, the enemy does in fact get a vote.

All Bizniz
05-08-2018, 11:20 AM
I like the way you think Beta 82 !
May it be so!
Problem is, the enemy does in fact get a vote.
I like the way you think Mudhen200!..... except the enemy part :)

Klsytakesit
05-08-2018, 11:42 PM
And to be perfectly clear. What Mudhen means is the enemy is among us and gets to vote....The ďenemyĒ showed up in 09 and again in 13....It is we who have done this to us...not brad ben bill john etc....8

PolishFlyerDude
10-24-2019, 11:31 AM
It has been about 1.5 years since the last post here. Any updates on PBS status at Alaska? Is it implemented system-wide? If so, how do ex-VA guts like it? What about the original Alaska guys?

echelon
10-24-2019, 12:08 PM
It has been about 1.5 years since the last post here. Any updates on PBS status at Alaska? Is it implemented system-wide? If so, how do ex-VA guts like it? What about the original Alaska guys?

PBS is literally years away. Discussions about PBS will happen during section 6 negotiations regarding scheduling, which are due to start next month. It's likely to be a reality at some point, but not any time soon.

MusicPilot
10-24-2019, 03:41 PM
PBS is literally years away. Discussions about PBS will happen during section 6 negotiations regarding scheduling, which are due to start next month. It's likely to be a reality at some point, but not any time soon.

The company already has PBS 🤔

echelon
10-24-2019, 03:56 PM
The company already has PBS ��

I'm not counting the pile that the FA's have if that's what you mean

Av8rRr
10-24-2019, 04:15 PM
I'm not counting the pile that the FA's have if that's what you mean

Sure beats someone else making your schedule for you.

Max Thrust
10-24-2019, 06:31 PM
I'm not counting the pile of a$$ that the FA's have if that's what you mean

Have you used it?

DangleDunlops
10-24-2019, 06:56 PM
Have you used it?

I have. Itís a joke.

OhSnapAF
10-27-2019, 07:52 AM
I have. Itís a joke.

No, the joke is line bidding the way AS does it. Pilots complain about lack of productivity, and poor quality of pairings yet love line bidding. It is a sad irony...

PBS with an MOU we agree on, and a vendor we choose should be implied and inferred as a means to accept PBS on property. The argument that management will have all control under PBS is laughable. They have all the control now. Instead of fighting over which vendor is crappiest and how much of a "joke" it is, we should be campaigning for a good vendor and the work rules we require for a mutually beneficial implementation of PBS.

Outdoors
10-27-2019, 08:07 AM
No, the joke is line bidding the way AS does it. Pilots complain about lack of productivity, and poor quality of pairings yet love line bidding. It is a sad irony...

PBS with an MOU we agree on, and a vendor we choose should be implied and inferred as a means to accept PBS on property. The argument that management will have all control under PBS is laughable. They have all the control now. Instead of fighting over which vendor is crappiest and how much of a "joke" it is, we should be campaigning for a good vendor and the work rules we require for a mutually beneficial implementation of PBS.

Language is everything.

Noworkallplay
12-16-2019, 07:42 PM
No, the joke is line bidding the way AS does it. Pilots complain about lack of productivity, and poor quality of pairings yet love line bidding. It is a sad irony...

PBS with an MOU we agree on, and a vendor we choose should be implied and inferred as a means to accept PBS on property. The argument that management will have all control under PBS is laughable. They have all the control now. Instead of fighting over which vendor is crappiest and how much of a "joke" it is, we should be campaigning for a good vendor and the work rules we require for a mutually beneficial implementation of PBS.

You do realize that PBS has nothing to do with the paring generation software? The complaints you used are not fixed with PBS but are fixed with pairing generation rules.

rickair7777
12-17-2019, 07:35 AM
You do realize that PBS has nothing to do with the paring generation software? The complaints you used are not fixed with PBS but are fixed with pairing generation rules.

Yes, two separate and distinct issues.

Pairing construction determines the quality and efficiency of the flying. Need to keep in mind that it's limited by the business model, ie the type of flying the company does. No matter how hard you negotiate the company isn't going to eliminate short haul and add trancons and ETOPs flights just to make the pilots happy... you (or somebody) has to fly the legs the company needs.

PBS just provides more flexibility in choice of pairings. No real reason for somebody else to pick your pairings for you.

cmrflyer
12-18-2019, 03:26 AM
Thatís exactly right.
PBS allows you to pick youíre schedule rather than someone in a cubicle picking it for you, then you spending three weeks trying to make it more acceptable.
Itís really not rocket science.

Cruz5350
12-18-2019, 08:15 AM
Until we have more ownership on how the pairings are made it won't really matter which delivery system we have. For instance in the JAN SFO bid packet an overwhelming majority of the pairings have early starts and late finishes. I was really picky with which lines I wanted and only bid about 20 or so and ended up not getting any. When the OF lines posted it was basically the same so I chose LC over having to burn so many extra days commuting or taking red eyes home.

av8or
12-18-2019, 08:17 AM
Thatís exactly right.
PBS allows you to pick youíre schedule rather than someone in a cubicle picking it for you, then you spending three weeks trying to make it more acceptable.
Itís really not rocket science.

I heard a guy say this the other day:
ďWe have PBS here NOW! Right now, the most senior pilots bid their schedule, then through step trading, drop some or all of their awarded schedule only to pick up they days/times/days off/pairings they actually want. THAT, ... is PBS.... itís just that it only really works for the most senior pilots, takes hours of your time off to submit, and two weeks to award.Ē

Thought that was a pretty solid observation

echelon
12-18-2019, 08:32 AM
Until we have more ownership on how the pairings are made it won't really matter which delivery system we have. For instance in the JAN SFO bid packet an overwhelming majority of the pairings have early starts and late finishes. I was really picky with which lines I wanted and only bid about 20 or so and ended up not getting any. When the OF lines posted it was basically the same so I chose LC over having to burn so many extra days commuting or taking red eyes home.


How'd you like those ~15 lines of 4 of the same 18.5hr 4 day: 14hrs of block in 3 duty periods and 4 days, 26hrs in SEA, 25hrs in JFK, and paid on TAFB?

I know it's January, I've never seen a pairing that bad at ANY airline.

Cruz5350
12-18-2019, 08:38 AM
How'd you like those ~15 lines of 4 of the same 18.5hr 4 day: 14hrs of block in 3 duty periods and 4 days, 26hrs in SEA, 25hrs in JFK, and paid on TAFB?

I know it's January, . I've never seen a pairing that bad at ANY airline.

We know what was dropped in step trading lol.

VirginEskimo
12-18-2019, 09:11 AM
I disagree with the ďpairing construction has to be fixed before it makes a differenceĒ argument. Iíd begrudgingly fly more days per month to the cities I want to layover in than fly fewer days and miss out on being able to care for my ill family members during layovers. I know everyone doesnít see it this way but Iím tired of people making blanket statements. Maybe lead your statements with ďA majority of pilots would benefit more with improved pairing construction....Ē

Not everyoneís situation is the same. While I may not be in the majority I personally would take PBS first, pairing optimization second and Iíve let my reps know that.

ExperimentalAB
12-18-2019, 12:14 PM
I disagree with the ďpairing construction has to be fixed before it makes a differenceĒ argument. Iíd begrudgingly fly more days per month to the cities I want to layover in than fly fewer days and miss out on being able to care for my ill family members during layovers. I know everyone doesnít see it this way but Iím tired of people making blanket statements. Maybe lead your statements with ďA majority of pilots would benefit more with improved pairing construction....Ē

Not everyoneís situation is the same. While I may not be in the majority I personally would take PBS first, pairing optimization second and Iíve let my reps know that.

I donít think itís that youíre not in the majority...respectfully, I think youíre just the only one. Thinking like that, on any large scale, would destroy our collective QOL.

Meekrob
12-18-2019, 12:28 PM
At first I was skeptical towards PBS at my old airline, but we got it along with solid language and it was much better than line bidding. Senior people got what they wanted and even junior people as well.

Despite the improvement, it still saves the company money so if they want it they're going to have to pay for it. They can start with scope and then scheduling/reserve rules. There's a special place in hell for those who have to commute to reserve here.

VirginEskimo
12-18-2019, 02:23 PM
I donít think itís that youíre not in the majority...respectfully, I think youíre just the only one. Thinking like that, on any large scale, would destroy our collective QOL.

Good thing thereís only one of me then. If the reps follow the polling then the views of the majority will be followed. I just hate having my opinions assigned to me. FWIW my priorities when I was polled were fixing reserve rules, scope and PBS in that order. Just because something affects me personally I donít necessarily think that automatically should be the negotiators priorities.

Mea25000
12-18-2019, 03:17 PM
An overwhelming majority of the pilots on the Alaska airlines seniority are against implementing PBS... Does everyone know that.

It may happen but only if AS is willing to open up its wallet wide!

Workin
12-18-2019, 03:24 PM
PBS is more efficient and requires less pilots for the same amount of flying. That is why the company wants it. You will lose seniority and have a longer upgrade.

MusicPilot
12-18-2019, 04:20 PM
I hate tell you, but AS management already has PBS. If you think otherwise then youíre severely mistaken. I guarantee you they know they donít need PBS. Thatís why they tossed the SKD MOU to the curb. So for them itís a dangling carrot for the pilot group. Theyíll try to use that to force concessions elsewhere.

ELAC321
12-18-2019, 05:32 PM
PBS is more efficient and requires less pilots for the same amount of flying. That is why the company wants it. You will lose seniority and have a longer upgrade.

I thought our pilot group is the most efficient pilot group in the industry. How does that work when everybody else has PBS? :confused:

We all work 80+ hours every month. PBS will have the same constraints. There might be a ever so slight efficiency gain from the company being able to better plan RSV coverage with PBS.

ShyGuy
12-18-2019, 08:13 PM
Who remembers VXís ďIgnore crewmember credit threshold after pilot XX.Ē Aka, get ready to be hosed. It was sparingly used but a different management team could use it like hot cakes. Fact remains the current AS contract is written for and based on line bidding. Many parts need to be modified/changed before we adopt any PBS program. Then thereís the issue of unstacking. PBS programs handle that differently, depending on the software.

Niobe
12-19-2019, 08:08 AM
Who remembers VXís ďIgnore crewmember credit threshold after pilot XX.Ē Aka, get ready to be hosed. It was sparingly used but a different management team could use it like hot cakes. Fact remains the current AS contract is written for and based on line bidding. Many parts need to be modified/changed before we adopt any PBS program. Then thereís the issue of unstacking. PBS programs handle that differently, depending on the software.


Considering how insanely far behind the rest of the industry your guys contract is, these would be must haves for PBS:

1. Calendar Daily averaging RIG of 5:15 minutes and Calendar Day hard non averaging Rig of 5:00. This will fix your ridiculous pairings with 18.5 credit four days and 12 credit 3 days.

2. Contract Defined credit windows (ex: low 72-82, mid 75-90, high 90+) These must be defined during the vote including how and or what % of pilots are allowed in each one.

3. Average line Value language including caps on it. How it is determined and when it is allowed to go higher i.e. 3 months a year etc..

4. Only allow a PBS system that using linear logic NO GLOBAL ALGORITHIMS.

5. Defined Industry Standard Unstacking Limits/Credit Push Limits. Without these, get ready to be forced to work on days your seniority could hold off, because of insufficient manning (which at Alaska is constant).

6. Contract Language Defining every code, when it could be used, and what the code is worth. Prohibition against adding additional codes without Union agreement. Industry standard pro-ration tables also.

7. Misaward contract language defining what a misaward is, when it happens, what to do, and the remedy procedure. Define significant penalties the company incurs when not following these procedures.

8. 5:15 credit per day for a week of vacation. Ability to slide and/or add 2-3 vacation days per week of vacation depending on vacation balance.


9. Union access to administration side of the software and auditing of all PBS files and publication rights to all PBS files and data.

Without all of this get ready for PBS to be weaponized against the pilot group.

GreatBigSea
12-19-2019, 12:12 PM
Good thing thereís only one of me then. If the reps follow the polling then the views of the majority will be followed. I just hate having my opinions assigned to me. FWIW my priorities when I was polled were fixing reserve rules, scope and PBS in that order. Just because something affects me personally I donít necessarily think that automatically should be the negotiators priorities.

Iím with you.

That 3 day everyone hates because itís so unproductive? Iím from that city and I want to see family so Iíll take them all, even if it means working more days. With PBS it was never a problem, but with line bidding theyíre spread out across 30+ lines and itís almost impossible to get more than 2 each month.

WutFace
12-19-2019, 01:45 PM
An overwhelming majority of the pilots on the Alaska airlines seniority are against implementing PBS... Does everyone know that.

It may happen but only if AS is willing to open up its wallet wide!

Apparently MEA's dataset is painfully out of date. Just like his predictions about the fleet plan, his declaration about "an overwhelming majority" may have been true in 2006, but is no longer.

There's been 1400 pilots added in the last 5 years who don't have any allegiance to the "traditional" ways that Alaska does its schedules.

Adapt or die. It's that way with a fleet plan. It's also true with PBS.

Flaps1check
12-19-2019, 01:53 PM
ď2. Contract Defined credit windows (ex: low 72-82, mid 75-90, high 90+) These must be defined during the vote including how and or what % of pilots are allowed in each oneĒ

One window 65-95, pilots will fly what the want. This provides flexibility to a wide range of pilot needs.

flysnoopy76
12-19-2019, 01:53 PM
Apparently MEA's dataset is painfully out of date. Just like his predictions about the fleet plan, his declaration about "an overwhelming majority" may have been true in 2006, but is no longer.

There's been 1400 pilots added in the last 5 years who don't have any allegiance to the "traditional" ways that Alaska does its schedules.

Adapt or die. It's that way with a fleet plan. It's also true with PBS.

Given todayís email it appears they are leaning more towards the die option rather than adapt.

Flaps1check
12-19-2019, 01:56 PM
Apparently MEA's dataset is painfully out of date. Just like his predictions about the fleet plan, his declaration about "an overwhelming majority" may have been true in 2006, but is no longer.

There's been 1400 pilots added in the last 5 years who don't have any allegiance to the "traditional" ways that Alaska does its schedules.

Adapt or die. It's that way with a fleet plan. It's also true with PBS.

Not to mention there has been a portion of the traditional alaska pilots that have become aware of the benefits. However Iím not willing to go back to PBS without considerable financial and scheduling improvements. Iím more than happy to stay on line bidding with the addition of ADG and full conflict pay protection and no requirements to pick back up.

rickair7777
12-19-2019, 03:15 PM
ď
One window 65-95, pilots will fly what the want. This provides flexibility to a wide range of pilot needs.

Practical problem with that... if EVERYBODY bids 65 hours in a given moth, flying is uncovered.

The tiered approach is more realistic, company can plan for staffing.

Alternatively, everyone could "opt in" to a specific tier of their choice for the following year and the company could staff accordingly.

Flaps1check
12-19-2019, 05:00 PM
Practical problem with that... if EVERYBODY bids 65 hours in a given moth, flying is uncovered.

The tiered approach is more realistic, company can plan for staffing.

Alternatively, everyone could "opt in" to a specific tier of their choice for the following year and the company could staff accordingly.

Flying was covered with a 70-90 Or flex 75-95 at VX. Their staffing isnít my concern, bidding flexibility is my concern. Other airlines have large windows, pilots fly a lot, a little, and in the middle.

GreatBigSea
12-19-2019, 05:41 PM
And for those worried about "unstacking", all it takes is a work rule saying "unstacking will not occur above 'X' seniority in each base'.

VX didn't have this, which meant some senior pilots got hosed while junior pilots wound up with holidays off.

Back2future
12-19-2019, 08:18 PM
Practical problem with that... if EVERYBODY bids 65 hours in a given moth, flying is uncovered.

The tiered approach is more realistic, company can plan for staffing.

Alternatively, everyone could "opt in" to a specific tier of their choice for the following year and the company could staff accordingly.

That's the great thing about people; no two of them think the same. Given a big enough sample size the pilots who wish to fly the minimum should be averaged out by the ones who want to fly the maximum. Most of the PBS systems have a few credit windows e.g. Low, Normal, and High. The administrator will then adjust the values for the run so that the finished solution meets the contractually agreed upon Average Line Value. If its Christmas the people hoping to fly 60 hrs might have to fly 65 and if its February the people wanting to credit 105 might have to settle for 95 but, there's always open time and pilot to pilot trades to get things just right.

As long as the person moving the levers is bound by the right rules and the Average Line Value is properly negotiated everyone will generally fly the amount that they want.

rickair7777
12-20-2019, 06:42 AM
Obviously with a large group there will be statistical spread across the range. I'm more playing devil's advocate, how the company might view it (or the excuse they might use). Might be afraid of a wildcat reduction across the board.

Mea25000
12-20-2019, 09:08 AM
Apparently MEA's dataset is painfully out of date. Just like his predictions about the fleet plan, his declaration about "an overwhelming majority" may have been true in 2006, but is no longer.

There's been 1400 pilots added in the last 5 years who don't have any allegiance to the "traditional" ways that Alaska does its schedules.

Adapt or die. It's that way with a fleet plan. It's also true with PBS.

No, polling data showed 37% of the pilot group wanted PBS... that data was polled in the last 12 months.

Bugaboo
12-20-2019, 09:30 AM
No, polling data showed 37% of the pilot group wanted PBS... that data was polled in the last 12 months.

Hmmmmm? What percentage of the total pilot group are former Virgin America? They used PBS. I would guess somewhere close to 35%. I know the poll is not 100% representative but should be pretty close.

ShyGuy
12-20-2019, 09:56 AM
Keep in mind that VXís large spread of 70-97 hrs credit bidding per month allowed them to keep staffing at a lower amount. Compared to Frontier or Spirit (line bidding), when they were about 70 planes they had way more pilots than VX did. The entire AS contract is written for line bidding. I wouldnít want PBS until that changes.

echelon
12-20-2019, 10:26 AM
The entire AS contract is written for line bidding. I wouldnít want PBS until that changes.

... Yeah, obviously. Isn't that what we're doing right now? Re-writing the contract?

plt32173
12-20-2019, 12:55 PM
Keep in mind that VXís large spread of 70-97 hrs credit bidding per month allowed them to keep staffing at a lower amount. Compared to Frontier or Spirit (line bidding), when they were about 70 planes they had way more pilots than VX did. The entire AS contract is written for line bidding. I wouldnít want PBS until that changes.
Agreed Shy. If management doesnít want to agree with what we need to make pbs right, Iím happy with line bidding.

Flaps1check
12-20-2019, 09:16 PM
Agreed Shy. If management doesnít want to agree with what we need to make pbs right, Iím happy with line bidding.

Line bidding with full conflict pay and credit

DangleDunlops
12-20-2019, 10:29 PM
Line bidding with full conflict pay and credit

Go visit Kasher on his private island in the Bahamas and ask him for that back.

DangleDunlops
12-20-2019, 10:41 PM
Considering how insanely far behind the rest of the industry your guys contract is, these would be must haves for PBS:
...
1. Calendar Daily averaging RIG of 5:15 minutes and Calendar Day hard non averaging Rig of 5:00. This will fix your ridiculous pairings with 18.5 credit four days and 12 credit 3 days.

2. Contract Defined credit windows (ex: low 72-82, mid 75-90, high 90+) These must be defined during the vote including how and or what % of pilots are allowed in each one.

3. Average line Value language including caps on it. How it is determined and when it is allowed to go higher i.e. 3 months a year etc..

4. Only allow a PBS system that using linear logic NO GLOBAL ALGORITHIMS.

5. Defined Industry Standard Unstacking Limits/Credit Push Limits. Without these, get ready to be forced to work on days your seniority could hold off, because of insufficient manning (which at Alaska is constant).

6. Contract Language Defining every code, when it could be used, and what the code is worth. Prohibition against adding additional codes without Union agreement. Industry standard pro-ration tables also.

7. Misaward contract language defining what a misaward is, when it happens, what to do, and the remedy procedure. Define significant penalties the company incurs when not following these procedures.

8. 5:15 credit per day for a week of vacation. Ability to slide and/or add 2-3 vacation days per week of vacation depending on vacation balance.


9. Union access to administration side of the software and auditing of all PBS files and publication rights to all PBS files and data.

Without all of this get ready for PBS to be weaponized against the pilot group.

This is probably one of the most coherent arguments Iíve heard for PBS at Alaska. Work on that rig and average credit equation and work in some critical period touching overage and language to pay additional for added segments, legs over 2 in a duty period, reassignment pay (200%) if itís going to remain mandatory, if not have a pay protection/makeup scheme. Walking reserve was horrible here. I was getting reassigned left and right.

And WTF, PAY! Money needs to start flowing if youíre taking PBS.

Ohio
12-21-2019, 01:51 PM
Go visit Kasher on his private island in the Bahamas and ask him for that back.

We could negotiate it in 2020, the best economy of our lifetimes. Or just keep the same crap and whine about what happened 15 years ago.

Not directed at you personally, I just hear this a lot here. And most act like it's unfixable.

av8or
12-21-2019, 11:40 PM
We could negotiate it in 2020, the best economy of our lifetimes. Or just keep the same crap and whine about what happened 15 years ago.

Not directed at you personally, I just hear this a lot here. And most act like it's unfixable.

ďMostĒ.... is actually the minority now. I really believe that. That philosophy just helps assuage their guilt for grabbing all the premium possible.

Mudhen200
12-22-2019, 05:27 AM
Our section 25 is a mess, due to Kasher. Take a look at section 25 from the perspective of trips touching (full pay and credit) vacation and training. If we are to keep our scheduling section similar to what it is today, we must have that back. I can't even imagine how much money Kasher gave Alaska nearly 20 years ago. It's time for Kasher's name to be forgotten and a new era to start at Alaska Airlines. I for one am done working for any kind of discount. Market or better in vital areas of our contact or I'll vote no. I'm beginning to think that B&B really have no idea what the mindset of this pilot group is. They will learn.

Flyboy8784
12-22-2019, 12:06 PM
No, polling data showed 37% of the pilot group wanted PBS... that data was polled in the last 12 months.


Whereíd you get that from? I was unaware that the union published the polling data.

KnockKnock
12-22-2019, 12:11 PM
Forget PBS, how about we dream big and get some rampers in SEA....

GrassstripflyerZSE
12-22-2019, 06:05 PM
Forget PBS, how about we dream big and get some rampers in SEA....

😂😂😂

Thatís a good one!

Flyboy8784
12-22-2019, 06:44 PM
But guys!!! You donít understand!!! It rained!!!

echelon
12-22-2019, 07:54 PM
But guys!!! You donít understand!!! It rained!!!

Weather phenomenon of the century... Somehow there was record rainfall on the north side of the airport and operations up there were an unmitigated calamity, but the storm must have completely missed the south side of the airport! Incredible!

BTW thanks, JL, for insulting our intelligence once again.

opdeliber
12-22-2019, 08:28 PM
People still donít have their bags all around the country- many with Christmas presents inside.. some bags that have been reunited from what I understand were returned soaked from the monstrous rain storm that only plagued Alaskan airlines in Seattle.

Alaska ruins Christmas. Oh wait sorry, the unexpected Pacific Northwest rain storm over the north side of the airport that severely impacted our operation did... it had nothing to do with the latest episode of poor planning, cost cutting, smugness, and lack of feeling of the operational pulse that the dear ďleadersĒ have.

Is this how we win Seattle? Glad we are pulling out of California!! Seattle airlines once again

Flyboy8784
12-23-2019, 08:46 AM
People still donít have their bags all around the country- many with Christmas presents inside.. some bags that have been reunited from what I understand were returned soaked from the monstrous rain storm that only plagued Alaskan airlines in Seattle.

Alaska ruins Christmas. Oh wait sorry, the unexpected Pacific Northwest rain storm over the north side of the airport that severely impacted our operation did... it had nothing to do with the latest episode of poor planning, cost cutting, smugness, and lack of feeling of the operational pulse that the dear ďleadersĒ have.

Is this how we win Seattle? Glad we are pulling out of California!! Seattle airlines once again

Wait wait wait.....are you suggesting that Delta didn't have the same problem that we did in SEA? BLASPHEMER!!! :D:D:D

Packrat
12-23-2019, 08:54 AM
Wait wait wait.....are you suggesting that Delta didn't have the same problem that we did in SEA? BLASPHEMER!!! :D:D:D

I flew through SEA that day on Delta and my bag was nice and dry. But then, its not that far from the B gates to the South Satellite.

NewGuy01
12-23-2019, 09:20 AM
I hear that 40 rampers were fired and 40 more quit in solidarity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Texasbound
12-23-2019, 10:35 AM
I hear that 40 rampers were fired and 40 more quit in solidarity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I heard it was Epstein, using the "Russian Collusion", in the employee break room.

rickair7777
12-23-2019, 03:12 PM
I hear that 40 rampers were fired and 40 more quit in solidarity.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Why would they fire forty rampers right before the holidays? Unless they all went to the same rave?

Flyboy8784
12-24-2019, 06:23 AM
Why would they fire forty rampers right before the holidays? Unless they all went to the same rave?

Rampers were calling out sick due to the rotten weather they had for a week....and those that banged in were all fired for "violating sick call policy". That was the story told to me by one of the rampers.

ExtendedDays
12-31-2019, 12:04 PM
Imagine being a Seattle based airline, and releasing a statement that blamed the meltdown on rain...

Excargodog
12-31-2019, 05:10 PM
Imagine being a Seattle based airline, and releasing a statement that blamed the meltdown on rain...


https://i.ibb.co/t2Mj5qJ/3-A3-CBF63-82-CA-4-BCB-BA31-0-E6-DF7-C45-AB5.jpg (https://ibb.co/Yd7nGcL)

:p:p