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View Full Version : ANY good news about Envoy?


ebelizard
02-10-2018, 08:49 AM
I've been reading a lot on these forums of current Envoy pilots who are extremely disgruntled. I'm currently about to start time building at Coast next week, and was looking forward to the airlines coming from my UH-60L background.

It seems as though no one has anything good to say about the company; scheduling, flight time, pay, etc. I guess I'm looking for a shred of hope that the company isn't as terrible as some make it seem.


flysooner9
02-10-2018, 08:54 AM
They have flow!!!!! You’ll be an AA pilot as soon as your hired!

Whiskey4
02-10-2018, 12:41 PM
I've been reading a lot on these forums of current Envoy pilots who are extremely disgruntled. I'm currently about to start time building at Coast next week, and was looking forward to the airlines coming from my UH-60L background.

It seems as though no one has anything good to say about the company; scheduling, flight time, pay, etc. I guess I'm looking for a shred of hope that the company isn't as terrible as some make it seem.

Airline pilots are notorious for complaining about...well...everything. Examples I’ve heard:

Overnight in a nice hotel on the beach? “There aren’t enough restaurant choices nearby!!!”

777 first officer? “They expected me to work 9 DAYS last month. I usually only work 8 days per month. WTF!!!”

Slow upgrade? “This is bulls%*$”
Quick upgrade? “This is bulls%*$”

Envoy is fine as regional airlines go. 90% of the people I fly with indicate that life is good. There are the usual 10% (most of whom post on forums) who seem to hate their life. Many of these have unrealistic expectations of being an airline pilot. I’ve literally flown with guys who complain about having to be away from home every week. What exactly were they thinking this job is all about?? Captains who complain seem to think it’s part of their job description... If they acknowledge that they actually have a pretty chill job (as jobs go) then somehow that makes them weak.

I especially love pilots who complain about being on standby. You literally get paid to sit on your backside. Personally, standby was 1000% better than jobs I’ve had doing manual labor, retail, being a CFI (depending on the student). On standby I was paid to sleep, read the WSJ, monitor my investments, get some exercise, develop and manage a side hustle, binge watch a few good tv series, and do a few trips. Is RAP better if living in base? Sure. But seriously...pilots complain about everything.


itsmytime
02-10-2018, 01:50 PM
Great post @whisky. Your point about upgrades is hilarious. Guys used to want to upgrade as soon as possible. Now you can, and everyone complains! LOL!

ORDinary
02-10-2018, 02:02 PM
Great post @whisky. Your point about upgrades is hilarious. Guys used to want to upgrade as soon as possible. Now you can, and everyone complains! LOL!

In reality some people complained about slow upgrades, and they are very happy that upgrade times have plummeted. Other people never complained about the slow upgrade, preferred to stay FO, and are not happy about being forced into a commute and bad schedules.

highfarfast
02-10-2018, 02:24 PM
Great post @whisky. Your point about upgrades is hilarious. Guys used to want to upgrade as soon as possible. Now you can, and everyone complains! LOL!

Well, yeah, most people want to upgrade as soon as possible but on their terms, ei in their base of choice on their equipment of choice. What we're seeing is forced upgrades to other bases and other equipment. Hence the complaining.

LowValuAviator
02-10-2018, 02:49 PM
A year or two ago I thought Envoy was a no-brainer. Straight into a 175 in Dallas @ 23, really competitive pay w/ the bonuses, recruitment was advertising a 5-6 year flow. I think it is much more of a mixed bag now, but I still hear from guys regularly who went other places saying "I wish I'd gone to Envoy," and I've noticed you don't see many people naming other airlines as missed opportunities here.

I can understand why someone would be disgruntled after getting displaced to LGA. Especially if you were living in your base, now you have a situation where you have to switch to the commuter lifestyle or try affording NY on a regional salary, while running into justifiably smug Endeavor captains every time you go to work.

lakehouse
02-10-2018, 02:50 PM
The moral is low. Aag approved endv pay rates and envoy management said we don't need that. We have people getting the base they live in as an fo then being displaced to captain and endless standby halfway across the country. This company is relentless when it comes to making people commute even though they live in an AA hub.

Now flow is being metered illegally and the flow time is close to a decade. Buyers remorse is widespread.

Chicken Little
02-10-2018, 03:25 PM
How is flow being metered illegally?

Whiskey4
02-10-2018, 03:43 PM
The moral is low. Aag approved endv pay rates and envoy management said we don't need that. We have people getting the base they live in as an fo then being displaced to captain and endless standby halfway across the country. This company is relentless when it comes to making people commute even though they live in an AA hub.

Now flow is being metered illegally and the flow time is close to a decade. Buyers remorse is widespread.

No one other than the AAG board and management can prove if pay rates were approved. Until proof exists you’re just looking for an excuse to get angry.

The displacement to Captain issue came with the contract. Don’t like your contract? Well, perhaps there is some entity that negotiated on your behalf that needs to be made aware of your displeasure.

The company is not metering “illegally”. The union never bothered to define the term “operational necessity”. Want to be ****ed? Be ****ed at the union legal folks who time and time again provide us with such useless language or with undefined terminology. Most contracts I’ve ever negotiated spent a massive amount of effort in section one: Definitions.

Do you think the sharpest legal minds coming out of law school, or the legal experts who have spent years building solid reputations get jobs at ALPA?? Answer...no. You get what you pay for.

Operational necessity at this point is likely being defined by promises made to AAG regarding the amount of hulls we can operate. Based on the FO vs. Captain imbalance we likely have going on right now (as evidenced by the new bonuses) it is an operational necessity to conserve captains in order to fulfill the fleet plan promised to AAG. Therefore, nothing “illegal” going on.

And, don’t get me wrong, the metering is damaging my personal career earnings. It is literally taking money off the table for my family, kids college, retirement, etc. Frustrrated? Sure. However, being ****ed based on a false premise doesn’t do any good. Try convincing our MEC to fire our pathetic lawyers and get someone who can actually play the game.

ParkingatMIA
02-10-2018, 03:46 PM
most people want to upgrade as soon as possible but on their terms, ei in their base of choice on their equipment of choice.

You hit the nail on the head! When I got hired a year and a half ago my goal was to fly as much as possible to get over 1,000 hours so I could be ready to get the upgrade, in the base I want. With the forced upgrades now I’m just above 800 hours only flying OT. I’ve flown exactly 0 hours in February so far and intend to keep it that way, which is really unfortunate because I really do enjoy flying the plane. It’s why I become a pilot in the first place.

lakehouse
02-10-2018, 03:57 PM
No one other than the AAG board and management can prove if pay rates were approved. Until proof exists you’re just looking for an excuse to get angry.

The displacement to Captain issue came with the contract. Don’t like your contract? Well, perhaps there is some entity that negotiated on your behalf that needs to be made aware of your displeasure.

The company is not metering “illegally”. The union never bothered to define the term “operational necessity”. Want to be ****ed? Be ****ed at the union legal folks who time and time again provide us with such useless language or with undefined terminology. Most contracts I’ve ever negotiated spent a massive amount of effort in section one: Definitions.

Do you think the sharpest legal minds coming out of law school, or the legal experts who have spent years building solid reputations get jobs at ALPA?? Answer...no. You get what you pay for.

Operational necessity at this point is likely being defined by promises made to AAG regarding the amount of hulls we can operate. Based on the FO vs. Captain imbalance we likely have going on right now (as evidenced by the new bonuses) it is an operational necessity to conserve captains in order to fulfill the fleet plan promised to AAG. Therefore, nothing “illegal” going on.

And, don’t get me wrong, the metering is damaging my personal career earnings. It is literally taking money off the table for my family, kids college, retirement, etc. Frustrrated? Sure. However, being ****ed based on a false premise doesn’t do any good. Try convincing our MEC to fire our pathetic lawyers and get someone who can actually play the game.


I have the audio files of the conference call with Pedro saying if they hire 30 we send 25 if they hire 80 we send 40, and he'd park airplanes to honor the flow. Idk what is more clear than that.... It's what the union then went and sold.

havick206
02-10-2018, 04:04 PM
I have the audio files of the conference call with Pedro saying if they hire 30 we send 25 if they hire 80 we send 40, and he'd park airplanes to honor the flow. Idk what is more clear than that.... It's what the union then went and sold.

Hopefully the union has a copy of the same audio files going into arbitration of their grievance?

Milksheikh
02-10-2018, 04:10 PM
I have the audio files of the conference call with Pedro saying if they hire 30 we send 25 if they hire 80 we send 40, and he'd park airplanes to honor the flow. Idk what is more clear than that.... It's what the union then went and sold.

At the same time though, wasn't there a quote from one of the higher ups at envoy (maybe director of flight ops or a vice president) saying they will plan on only sending at most 25 a month to aa indefinitely?

Edit: found it "The current group of flows can be metered to 25/month. Envoy, according to Ric Wilson (the man in charge), will never send more than this contractual minimum."

Whiskey4
02-10-2018, 04:10 PM
I've been reading a lot on these forums of current Envoy pilots who are extremely disgruntled. I'm currently about to start time building at Coast next week, and was looking forward to the airlines coming from my UH-60L background.

It seems as though no one has anything good to say about the company; scheduling, flight time, pay, etc. I guess I'm looking for a shred of hope that the company isn't as terrible as some make it seem.

To address you more directly...as an RTP guy you are in a great position right now. You’ve got:

A job with a large, growing airline with lots of mobility (for base transfers and upgrades) due to the combination of growth and flow.

Envoy paying for your fixed-wing time-building so you can get your airline career off the ground.

$17-22k in bonus cash.

A flow option (sort of like an insurance policy) should you want a job at AA someday. You may not need it, but 25-ish people per month are currently pretty flipping excited to cash in their insurance.

If you commute, a few paid hotels per month and decent amount of commuter policies to use for making conmuting a bit easier.

You are entering this industry at a decent (not perfect) airline and at a really good time. They are throwing cash at you to increase the upfront value, growing the airline which provides you some QOL and flexibility options (vs. stagnation where you are simply stuck), and providing you with career insurance should the mainline call never come. If you didn’t finish college (which you may have) then you are getting even more value from the flow.

Be confident about your decision. Keep in mind that many here suffered through a bankruptcy, age 65 rule change, downsizing, Scott Kirby and the “world changing”, etc. You are getting a much better starting point than many before you. Stay the course, work hard during RTP, prep for Envoy training (helos are not jets...look into Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot and/or the Turbine Pilots Flight Manual), be humble, use your resources, enjoy the job, don’t sweat the small stuff, and don’t take on other people’s grievances as your own.

Look forward to flying with you!

Inop2
02-10-2018, 04:48 PM
When I first arrived at Envoy in 2016 I thought people were unjustified in their criticisms of the company. In fact I had words on this forum with some, not defending the company but trying to give a balance. Now, I understand and empathize with the criticism. After taxes and expenses it really is pathetic pay.

3EngineTaxi
02-10-2018, 05:33 PM
Letter 15-01 mentions neither "metering" nor "operational necessity." It is a violation of the contract.

lakehouse
02-10-2018, 05:42 PM
Letter 15-01 mentions neither "metering" nor "operational necessity." It is a violation of the contract.

Yes and yes and yes

ebelizard
02-12-2018, 06:06 PM
To address you more directly...as an RTP guy you are in a great position right now. You’ve got:

A job with a large, growing airline with lots of mobility (for base transfers and upgrades) due to the combination of growth and flow.

Envoy paying for your fixed-wing time-building so you can get your airline career off the ground.

$17-22k in bonus cash.

A flow option (sort of like an insurance policy) should you want a job at AA someday. You may not need it, but 25-ish people per month are currently pretty flipping excited to cash in their insurance.

If you commute, a few paid hotels per month and decent amount of commuter policies to use for making conmuting a bit easier.

You are entering this industry at a decent (not perfect) airline and at a really good time. They are throwing cash at you to increase the upfront value, growing the airline which provides you some QOL and flexibility options (vs. stagnation where you are simply stuck), and providing you with career insurance should the mainline call never come. If you didn’t finish college (which you may have) then you are getting even more value from the flow.

Be confident about your decision. Keep in mind that many here suffered through a bankruptcy, age 65 rule change, downsizing, Scott Kirby and the “world changing”, etc. You are getting a much better starting point than many before you. Stay the course, work hard during RTP, prep for Envoy training (helos are not jets...look into Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot and/or the Turbine Pilots Flight Manual), be humble, use your resources, enjoy the job, don’t sweat the small stuff, and don’t take on other people’s grievances as your own.

Look forward to flying with you!

Thanks for the positive outlook; your insight has been uplifting compared to many opinions on here about the company. I'm a realistic person, and sometimes I do need some sort of validation on my decision to leave a full time paycheck. I was confident in the beginning, but reading as many negative comments has had its toll. I am looking forward to the airlines, and it's certainly going to be an adjustment.

SilentLurker
02-12-2018, 07:32 PM
Thanks for the positive outlook; your insight has been uplifting compared to many opinions on here about the company. I'm a realistic person, and sometimes I do need some sort of validation on my decision to leave a full time paycheck. I was confident in the beginning, but reading as many negative comments has had its toll. I am looking forward to the airlines, and it's certainly going to be an adjustment.

Blend the good with the bad mate. Know what your getting into before you get into it. I must say, reading about it is one thing living it is not that bad if you have the proper mindset. Military folks do have the mindset. This job and it’s mission is simple in comparison to military lifestyle, the discipline, and the overall expectations.

It’s a good job, I enjoy flying, it’s a solid pilot group with dexterity, knowledge, and highly experienced Captains who have done a lot for this company, and for its survival. Great people to work with. Solid pilot group again, I give it to Recruiting department for hiring some very positive people and also new FOs I’ve gotten to speak with.

It’s not all doom and gloom once ur acclimated to the operation. It’s a world class operation here. School house and its instructors have been top notch. I’m happy to be here not because of the “culture” (history btw Mgmt and pilots not so good, so scratch culture, needs rebuilding), but honestly the great Captains I’ve gotten the chance to fly with and learn from is the reason I’m most happy to be here. Glad to be here in my first 121 flying gig. This is an easy job, but we only complain because that’s what real pilots do. Just joking, it’s because of the direction we see our ship going. The Image of this ship is cracking, and looking ugly. Our competitors are shinning with guys at the helm steering them to sunny blue skies, fair tail winds, and calm seas. Just wish the decision makers causing instability for little to minor chump change, stop pointing this ship towards stormy skies, gusty winds, and rough seas.

Exhibit #1: Forced Upgrades

If this was a war zone I could understand forcefully promoting someone u need when you just lost one of higher ranking, and few want to taken that LT’s responsibilities in the assault to save Private Ryan. Or Private “growth bonus.”

E175 Driver
02-13-2018, 06:47 AM
I have the audio files of the conference call with Pedro saying if they hire 30 we send 25 if they hire 80 we send 40, and he'd park airplanes to honor the flow. Idk what is more clear than that.... It's what the union then went and sold.

What? Park airplanes to honor flow??? Thats crazy!!!!

E175 Driver
02-13-2018, 06:49 AM
Don't know whats wrong with the force upgrade. I can't wait myself to upgrade, log some PIC and hit the Majors.

BIueSideUp
02-13-2018, 08:19 AM
Don't know whats wrong with the force upgrade. I can't wait myself to upgrade, log some PIC and hit the Majors.

Are you at the schoolhouse yet??

E175 Driver
02-13-2018, 09:52 AM
Are you at the schoolhouse yet??

Around summer time. Are you buying beers?

BIueSideUp
02-13-2018, 02:19 PM
Around summer time. Are you buying beers?

Ohhhh actually maybe

AZPilotMike
02-13-2018, 04:27 PM
Around summer time. Are you buying beers?

I would love to buy you beer. I get you and understand the humor you try to achieve. I laugh at most of your stuff and bet it would be even better in person.

E190 Driver
02-14-2018, 05:12 AM
I have the audio files of the conference call with Pedro saying if they hire 30 we send 25 if they hire 80 we send 40, and he'd park airplanes to honor the flow. Idk what is more clear than that.... It's what the union then went and sold.

upload 'em. we wanna hear it from Pedro

flyguy727
02-14-2018, 09:15 AM
I've been reading a lot on these forums of current Envoy pilots who are extremely disgruntled. I'm currently about to start time building at Coast next week, and was looking forward to the airlines coming from my UH-60L background.

It seems as though no one has anything good to say about the company; scheduling, flight time, pay, etc. I guess I'm looking for a shred of hope that the company isn't as terrible as some make it seem.

I wouldn't pay too much attention to the negative stuff you read about here. Your not going to find the perfect company, not even at the majors. Pick the one that best fits your needs and worry about yourself.