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View Full Version : Doubling the MRJ order???


Metering
02-11-2018, 03:38 AM
I heard there is a piece of paper floating around the training center that mentions doubling the MRJ order!

I know.. I am just as shocked as the rest of you. No way the major airlines are going to give up scope like that! :eek:


ALTsel
02-11-2018, 03:47 AM
I heard there is a piece of paper floating around the training center that mentions doubling the MRJ order!

I know.. I am just as shocked as the rest of you. No way the major airlines are going to give up scope like that! :eek:


I highly doubt that... Do you have said piece of paper???

sailingfun
02-11-2018, 05:17 AM
You can triple the order. You will however have to become independent like Independence Air. You will also have to do that if you take delivery of even one airframe unless you go with the downsized version coming later if they even build it.


FlyingKat
02-11-2018, 07:43 AM
I heard there is a piece of paper floating around the training center that mentions doubling the MRJ order!

I know.. I am just as shocked as the rest of you. No way the major airlines are going to give up scope like that! :eek:

Well if its true it could have something to do with United management's confidence that they will be getting scope relief in this new contract. We'll see.....

minimwage4
02-11-2018, 09:17 AM
It doesnít matter. Nobody will sign on anything unless the airplanes are certified and ready to go. That wonít be for another 2 years. Not to mention scope. Only other way is to start their own airline and code share but that would be like Gojet x 1000.

m20cmark21
02-11-2018, 11:37 AM
You can triple the order. You will however have to become independent like Independence Air. You will also have to do that if you take delivery of even one airframe unless you go with the downsized version coming later if they even build it.

Well if its true it could have something to do with United management's confidence that they will be getting scope relief in this new contract. We'll see.....

It doesnít matter. Nobody will sign on anything unless the airplanes are certified and ready to go. That wonít be for another 2 years. Not to mention scope. Only other way is to start their own airline and code share but that would be like Gojet x 1000.

This has been brought up here and elsewhere too many times to count. Does the MRJ90 (configured with 88 or 92 economy seats as one of the 3 configurations) exceed the Scope Clauses for UA and AA for both total seats and weight (MATOW), yes. Keep in mind that this statement applies in an ALL ECONOMY SEATING configuration. NO Legacy carrier wants an ALL ECONOMY CONFIGURATION. They all want 2 or maybe even (a first for Regional) 3 classes of seats (economy, economy-plus/business, first). Check out the MRJ site itself, it even shows a 2-class configuration with First and Economy and 72 (wait, that's under the 76-seat scope) seats.

World-class Design (http://www.flythemrj.com/design/)

Now, you might say: bu-bu-but it's STILL scoped out on MATOW, right? Well... I'm not a rocket surgeon, but going from 92 seats to 72 leaves a lot of "wiggle room" on that number, and last I checked the MATOW was only over scope by approximately 1,200-pounds. Twenty adults weigh a little more than that, and it wouldn't be too difficult for our friends at the FAA to certify the MRJ90 with a maximum passenger limitation of 76, which would certainly put the MATOW below the required scope.

Lastly, yes, on the UA side (and possibly AA side) the total 76-seat airframes are at the maximum. But this accounts for some VERY tired CRJ700s, and EMB170s that could certainly take a much needed retirement breather out in the warm desert air. How do you think MESA is adding 175s?

Mitsubishi isn't stupid. They wouldn't create an aircraft that no one could buy. Yes, they have been plagued by problems, and as with any clean-sheet design there are unforeseeable issues. I would say that the engines, steel parts (with unfortunately falsified strength data from the Japanese supplier), wing spars, and other issues are much more pertinent for them to figure out other than "scope." For these design reasons we may never see this airplane, but scope isn't one of them. Considering the Engineering and Certification brainpower and talent that Mitsubishi has pulled in from Boeing and other companies with proven aircraft certification track records I wouldn't be surprised to see the MRJ out there flying sometime before 2022.

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation News (http://www.flythemrj.com/news/)

http://www.flythemrj.com/news/date/img/Advancing%20the%20MRJ%20project_e.pdf

sailingfun
02-11-2018, 01:07 PM
This has been brought up here and elsewhere too many times to count. Does the MRJ90 (configured with 88 or 92 economy seats as one of the 3 configurations) exceed the Scope Clauses for UA and AA for both total seats and weight (MATOW), yes. Keep in mind that this statement applies in an ALL ECONOMY SEATING configuration. NO Legacy carrier wants an ALL ECONOMY CONFIGURATION. They all want 2 or maybe even (a first for Regional) 3 classes of seats (economy, economy-plus/business, first). Check out the MRJ site itself, it even shows a 2-class configuration with First and Economy and 72 (wait, that's under the 76-seat scope) seats.

World-class Design (http://www.flythemrj.com/design/)

Now, you might say: bu-bu-but it's STILL scoped out on MATOW, right? Well... I'm not a rocket surgeon, but going from 92 seats to 72 leaves a lot of "wiggle room" on that number, and last I checked the MATOW was only over scope by approximately 1,200-pounds. Twenty adults weigh a little more than that, and it wouldn't be too difficult for our friends at the FAA to certify the MRJ90 with a maximum passenger limitation of 76, which would certainly put the MATOW below the required scope.

Lastly, yes, on the UA side (and possibly AA side) the total 76-seat airframes are at the maximum. But this accounts for some VERY tired CRJ700s, and EMB170s that could certainly take a much needed retirement breather out in the warm desert air. How do you think MESA is adding 175s?

Mitsubishi isn't stupid. They wouldn't create an aircraft that no one could buy. Yes, they have been plagued by problems, and as with any clean-sheet design there are unforeseeable issues. I would say that the engines, steel parts (with unfortunately falsified strength data from the Japanese supplier), wing spars, and other issues are much more pertinent for them to figure out other than "scope." For these design reasons we may never see this airplane, but scope isn't one of them. Considering the Engineering and Certification brainpower and talent that Mitsubishi has pulled in from Boeing and other companies with proven aircraft certification track records I wouldn't be surprised to see the MRJ out there flying sometime before 2022.

Mitsubishi Aircraft Corporation News (http://www.flythemrj.com/news/)

http://www.flythemrj.com/news/date/img/Advancing%20the%20MRJ%20project_e.pdf

Mitsubishi has stated they can’t get the MRJ90 below the required weight to meet the scope clauses. If they could they would have announced it that same day and it would be a big seller!

m20cmark21
02-11-2018, 03:50 PM
Mitsubishi has stated they canít get the MRJ90 below the required weight to meet the scope clauses. If they could they would have announced it that same day and it would be a big seller!

Reference?

sailingfun
02-11-2018, 04:22 PM
Reference?

Virtually every article about the jet. Not one has ever suggested they could meet the weight. If they could they would be screaming it from the rooftops! Keep the n mind the 87,300 lb version discussed has a very short range. Note the weight in this article. The LR version is 94,000 lbs.

Most U.S. airlines’ pilot contracts have scope clauses that limit outsourcing of flying on aircraft exceeding 76 seats and a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) of more than 86,000 lb. The MRJ can be configured with up to 90 seats, and its MTOW exceeds the cutoff. Yamagami said the seat-count restriction can be met by configuring the MRJ90 with two classes of service, but the MTOW restriction is a more difficult nut to crack.

“If the current 86,000-lb. MTOW restriction remains, our aircraft does not have enough range,” he said. “If we fill the aircraft with passengers, we cannot fill enough fuel for maximum range.” In its longest-range derivative, the MRJ has a 2,000 nm range and an MTOW just north of 90,000 lb.

m20cmark21
02-11-2018, 05:03 PM
Virtually every article about the jet. Not one has ever suggested they could meet the weight. If they could they would be screaming it from the rooftops! Keep the n mind the 87,300 lb version discussed has a very short range. Note the weight in this article. The LR version is 94,000 lbs.

Most U.S. airlines’ pilot contracts have scope clauses that limit outsourcing of flying on aircraft exceeding 76 seats and a maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) of more than 86,000 lb. The MRJ can be configured with up to 90 seats, and its MTOW exceeds the cutoff. Yamagami said the seat-count restriction can be met by configuring the MRJ90 with two classes of service, but the MTOW restriction is a more difficult nut to crack.

“If the current 86,000-lb. MTOW restriction remains, our aircraft does not have enough range,” he said. “If we fill the aircraft with passengers, we cannot fill enough fuel for maximum range.” In its longest-range derivative, the MRJ has a 2,000 nm range and an MTOW just north of 90,000 lb.

Good rebuttal, and I understand what you are saying. I just wouldn't be surprised, considering the amount of money involved, if they figure out a way to make the MRJ90 comply with scope limits. Anything is possible. I suppose only time will tell.

For the record, Embraer's website lists the MTOW of the (currently flying in gaggles) E175 at 89,000-lb.

sailingfun
02-11-2018, 05:46 PM
Good rebuttal, and I understand what you are saying. I just wouldn't be surprised, considering the amount of money involved, if they figure out a way to make the MRJ90 comply with scope limits. Anything is possible. I suppose only time will tell.

For the record, Embraer's website lists the MTOW of the (currently flying in gaggles) E175 at 89,000-lb.

89,000 is the E175. The E190 is heavier. You are kind of making my point. They restrict the range to get the E175 down to 86,000. You can bet over the last 10 years Mitsubishi pulled out every stop to get it to 86,000. With the new changes I doubt it will even make the 87,300 they claim. The geared engines are heavy.

Bloggs
02-12-2018, 07:20 AM
The legacies are not the ones sniffing around for MRJ lift.

What does Spiritís scope allow?

sailingfun
02-12-2018, 08:54 AM
The legacies are not the ones sniffing around for MRJ lift.

What does Spiritís scope allow?

However should a regional take delivery of the airframe to fly for Spirit or anyone else they would have to terminate their legacy contracts.

Bloggs
02-12-2018, 09:38 AM
However should a regional take delivery of the airframe to fly for Spirit or anyone else they would have to terminate their legacy contracts.

Exactly. The Embraers TSA operates have a limited shelf life and and they are looking for something to do when the 145ís finish up. If they operate MRJs exclusively for a LCC, then so be it. Better than not operating at all (from their perspective).

sailingfun
02-12-2018, 09:48 AM
Exactly. The Embraers TSA operates have a limited shelf life and and they are looking for something to do when the 145ís finish up. If they operate MRJs exclusively for a LCC, then so be it. Better than not operating at all (from their perspective).

Just to be clear if the operate the MRJ90 for anyone exclusive or not they would be in violation of the legacy contracts. They could terminate those contracts early but would likely have to pay a substantial penalty to do so.

Shifty
02-12-2018, 10:10 AM
No on Scope. Mainline will fly them if they ever get off the ground. Donít kid yourself.

msprj2
02-12-2018, 12:36 PM
No on Scope. Mainline will fly them if they ever get off the ground. Donít kid yourself.

I really donít see mainline flying 76 seaters unless the pilots agree to Regional wages. That
Would be another sellout of new
Young pilots which has been going on for 25+ years at the regionals.

underpaidpic
02-12-2018, 01:07 PM
Spirit Connection.........no scope and they hate their pilots more than
TSA Holdings does.

FlyingKat
02-12-2018, 06:25 PM
No on Scope. Mainline will fly them if they ever get off the ground. Donít kid yourself.

I hope the mainline guys hold the line on this, but their track history of holding the line on scope issues isn't all that great.

FlyingKat
02-12-2018, 06:27 PM
Just to be clear if the operate the MRJ90 for anyone exclusive or not they would be in violation of the legacy contracts. They could terminate those contracts early but would likely have to pay a substantial penalty to do so.

Not if its on a separate certificate.

FlyingKat
02-12-2018, 06:31 PM
89,000 is the E175. The E190 is heavier. You are kind of making my point. They restrict the range to get the E175 down to 86,000. You can bet over the last 10 years Mitsubishi pulled out every stop to get it to 86,000. With the new changes I doubt it will even make the 87,300 they claim. The geared engines are heavy.

The 175 E2s with geared turbofans have the same problem as the MRJ and are over scope limitations at 98,767 LB.

sailingfun
02-13-2018, 04:00 AM
Not if its on a separate certificate.

You would be incorrect. Get a copy of the major airlines scope. A simple dodge like that is covered. I believe the typical language is ďor any company owned or operationally controlled by the parent companyĒ.

Mesabah
02-13-2018, 04:06 AM
FWIW Delta has already given its intent to separate from Trans States regardless, so maybe they are planning on going it alone. One of the US regionals is going to buddy up with the foreign carriers, TSA is in the best position to do that.

sailingfun
02-13-2018, 04:52 AM
FWIW Delta has already given its intent to separate from Trans States regardless, so maybe they are planning on going it alone. One of the US regionals is going to buddy up with the foreign carriers, TSA is in the best position to do that.

TSA does not do any regional flying for Delta that I am aware of so not sure what notice they would give. They could cancel their contracts with AMR and UAL. It would be quite a undertaking to replace that revenue from foreign connections. They would need to set up a reservation system and completely remake their entire route network. Acquiring slots and gates at the appropriate international gateways would be difficult at best and relocating all their hubs and crews quite a undertaking. That would need to be done while suffering a massive revenue drop.
I don’t see that happening.

Mesabah
02-13-2018, 05:11 AM
TSA does not do any regional flying for Delta that I am aware of so not sure what notice they would give. They could cancel their contracts with AMR and UAL. It would be quite a undertaking to replace that revenue from foreign connections. They would need to set up a reservation system and completely remake their entire route network. Acquiring slots and gates at the appropriate international gateways would be difficult at best and relocating all their hubs and crews quite a undertaking. That would need to be done while suffering a massive revenue drop.
I donít see that happening.
Trans states owns Compass, and GoJet. The Delta scope clause would prohibit them from operating the MRJ, even on a different cert.

sailingfun
02-13-2018, 06:01 AM
Trans states owns Compass, and GoJet. The Delta scope clause would prohibit them from operating the MRJ, even on a different cert.

Letís hope they cancel the go jets portion. They should change their name to No Jets.

Bloggs
02-13-2018, 08:48 AM
Trans states owns Compass, and GoJet. The Delta scope clause would prohibit them from operating the MRJ, even on a different cert.

Then why didn't it prohibit Republic operating E190's?

sailingfun
02-13-2018, 09:01 AM
Then why didn't it prohibit Republic operating E190's?

That was several contracts ago. Loophole closed. How many do they have today? Big 190/195 order was announced in 2011 or so. How many did they get?

msprj2
02-13-2018, 01:28 PM
Trans states owns Compass, and GoJet. The Delta scope clause would prohibit them from operating the MRJ, even on a different cert.

Only the MRJ90
The 70 is scope compliant

FlyingKat
02-13-2018, 03:01 PM
You would be incorrect. Get a copy of the major airlines scope. A simple dodge like that is covered. I believe the typical language is “or any company owned or operationally controlled by the parent company”.


You would be incorrect. Republic Holdings flew 190s on the Republic Certificate for years and they were prohibited by scope at American, Delta, Continental and United. Scope is why regionals went to multiple certificates in first place. Republic was able to do this because the UAL, AA, CO, and DL aircraft were on the Shuttle and Chautauqua certificates, not the Republic Certificate. Republic put the 170s on the Chautauqua certificate initially and the APA fined them because it was a scope violation. Republic Holdings buys Shuttle America, puts the 170s there and the scope issues were resolved.

Regionals have proven very adept at creating holding companies with multiple certificates that get around mainline scope.

FlyingKat
02-13-2018, 03:06 PM
That was several contracts ago. Loophole closed. How many do they have today? Big 190/195 order was announced in 2011 or so. How many did they get?

They got rid of the 190s because they were flying them for Frontier and Midwest Express. Once Republic was no longer flying for Frontier there was no place else to put them so they got rid of them. It had nothing to do with mainline scope. They flew a few as Casino Charters but got rid of them once they decided to combine certificates.

FlyingKat
02-13-2018, 03:11 PM
duplicate post

sailingfun
02-14-2018, 04:48 AM
The real question in this entire thread is why any pilot at TSA would want the MRJ90 delivered and flown by TSA. The only plausible explanation is someone who is a lifer there due to skeletons in the closet. Pilots at TSA should be thrilled that mainline scope prevents this from happening.

khos13
02-14-2018, 07:22 AM
The real question in this entire thread is why any pilot at TSA would want the MRJ90 delivered and flown by TSA. The only plausible explanation is someone who is a lifer there due to skeletons in the closet. Pilots at TSA should be thrilled that mainline scope prevents this from happening.

I'm still doing research on the MRJ but it seems like an aircraft with some pretty advanced features. I am a new hire and I would be looking forward to it for that reason and I am not necessarily a lifer and I don't have a skeletons in my closet. Not saying you are necessarily wrong, just that there may be other plausible explanations.

sailingfun
02-14-2018, 08:16 AM
I'm still doing research on the MRJ but it seems like an aircraft with some pretty advanced features. I am a new hire and I would be looking forward to it for that reason and I am not necessarily a lifer and I don't have a skeletons in my closet. Not saying you are necessarily wrong, just that there may be other plausible explanations.

Well if you want to work at a regional for many extra years bring advanced aircraft to those airlines and you will get your wish. You will have a much better career and earnings if those seats are at the mainline. Delta has hired over 4000 pilots the last 4 years because they made a decision to bring 100 seat flying to the mainline. UAL and AMR have hired a fraction of that number because they still hope for scope relief and keeping that flying at the regionals.

minimwage4
02-14-2018, 08:24 AM
The real question in this entire thread is why any pilot at TSA would want the MRJ90 delivered and flown by TSA. The only plausible explanation is someone who is a lifer there due to skeletons in the closet. Pilots at TSA should be thrilled that mainline scope prevents this from happening.

Thereís not that many lifers at TSA, maybe 4 or 5 MRJs worth of coverage. I think the future looks pretty uncertain with tired old clapped out 145s on both AA and UA side with contracts that donít have much time left. Maybe thatís why thereís rumors of TSA being sold or merged. I sincerely doubt we will see the MRJ, theyíll merge us before.

FlyingKat
02-15-2018, 12:53 AM
The real question in this entire thread is why any pilot at TSA would want the MRJ90 delivered and flown by TSA. The only plausible explanation is someone who is a lifer there due to skeletons in the closet. Pilots at TSA should be thrilled that mainline scope prevents this from happening.


You need to straighten your Delta halo. Regional pilots have been dealing with the mess created by mainline guys caving on scope for years, starting with the weak Delta scope that allowed the 50 seat CRJs at Comair. Then everybody else had to cave on 50 seat scope because Deltas weak scope allowed the larger 70 seat CRJs. To the extent there are lifers here, its because your weak scope kept them from moving to mainline long ago. Its great that you are getting the flying back. Just make sure you don't cave again and screw us all when your management decides to put the screws to you.

We'd love to see more planes at mainline. Hell they should all be at mainline. You and your buddies at Delta let that cat out of the bag long ago when they created Delta Connection. Unfortunately long, bitter experience of seeing mainline pilots cave on scope for a few extra crumbs has many believing you will cave, yet again, when your management comes after the MRJs. We will be very happy to see you prove us wrong.

sailingfun
02-15-2018, 03:54 AM
You need to straighten your Delta halo. Regional pilots have been dealing with the mess created by mainline guys caving on scope for years, starting with the weak Delta scope that allowed the 50 seat CRJs at Comair. Then everybody else had to cave on 50 seat scope because Deltas weak scope allowed the larger 70 seat CRJs. To the extent there are lifers here, its because your weak scope kept them from moving to mainline long ago. Its great that you are getting the flying back. Just make sure you don't cave again and screw us all when your management decides to put the screws to you.

We'd love to see more planes at mainline. Hell they should all be at mainline. You and your buddies at Delta let that cat out of the bag long ago when they created Delta Connection. Unfortunately long, bitter experience of seeing mainline pilots cave on scope for a few extra crumbs has many believing you will cave, yet again, when your management comes after the MRJs. We will be very happy to see you prove us wrong.

Your history of scope at Delta is heavily flawed. Nobody had scope for the most part in the eighties. Scope evolved with the development of small jets. We did not allow anything. Management upgraded the regionals and we tried to hold that line. You donít always get what you want. Regardless it saved you from flying checks for 10 years all night long or single pilot cargo IFR at night for 8 bucks an hour until you had several thousand hours and could move on. Rode a jumpseat recently and the 23 year old copilot complained itís going to take him two years to make CA. Times have changed and certainly not for the worst.
If you have lifers itís not about scope. Unless they are over 55 they should be moving on. If not there is a reason.

Knobcrk1
02-15-2018, 07:17 AM
Your history of scope at Delta is heavily flawed. Nobody had scope for the most part in the eighties. Scope evolved with the development of small jets. We did not allow anything. Management upgraded the regionals and we tried to hold that line. You don’t always get what you want. Regardless it saved you from flying checks for 10 years all night long or single pilot cargo IFR at night for 8 bucks an hour until you had several thousand hours and could move on. Rode a jumpseat recently and the 23 year old copilot complained it’s going to take him two years to make CA. Times have changed and certainly not for the worst.
If you have lifers it’s not about scope. Unless they are over 55 they should be moving on. If not there is a reason.

Why would they move from their comfortable job driving to work with good days off so they can go be on reserve or even junior line holder or something in NY or wherever? There’s more to life than wearing a double breasted suit and thinking you’re the best. Nobody cares what you are.

Baradium
02-15-2018, 07:27 AM
Why would they move from their comfortable job driving to work with good days off so they can go be on reserve or even junior line holder or something in NY or wherever? Thereís more to life than wearing a double breasted suit and thinking youíre the best. Nobody cares what you are.

So you're agreeing with him that they aren't lifers because of scope but by choice?

sailingfun
02-15-2018, 07:45 AM
Why would they move from their comfortable job driving to work with good days off so they can go be on reserve or even junior line holder or something in NY or wherever? Thereís more to life than wearing a double breasted suit and thinking youíre the best. Nobody cares what you are.

You could enjoy a far better overall quality of life at a mainline carrier and have job stability. I gather you donít follow the history of regionals very much. Bases and time shift constantly. Regionals come and go.
A pilot moving to Delta today will make 165 an hour as a 737/A321 copilot in year 3. Thatís 24 months after being hired. In addition he will get 30% or more in DC contributions and profit sharing. Thatís about 215 an hour. If QOL is the driver you could fly 50 hours a month and probably be ahead of regional wages. Thatís basically 2 four day trips a month.
If they are staying there is a reason for the majority opting not to move on.

trip
02-15-2018, 08:05 AM
Yawn.. what a tired old argument, what came first, todays RJ cesspool or the mainline cave? Hint, we don't want anything to do with those "little" jets.

The 50 seaters are going to start timing out in big numbers the next couple years with no modern replacement on the horizon or even in consideration, (Embraer will still build a 145, however, that's a tough sell.) What will the future hold for Regionals without solid futures tied to majors? I doubt they will just go away without a whimper. This rumored MRJ doubledown may be an indication of what's being considered.

sailingfun
02-15-2018, 11:22 AM
Yawn.. what a tired old argument, what came first, todays RJ cesspool or the mainline cave? Hint, we don't want anything to do with those "little" jets.

The 50 seaters are going to start timing out in big numbers the next couple years with no modern replacement on the horizon or even in consideration, (Embraer will still build a 145, however, that's a tough sell.) What will the future hold for Regionals without solid futures tied to majors? I doubt they will just go away without a whimper. This rumored MRJ doubledown may be an indication of what's being considered.

Itís certainly possible some regional airlines will elect to go it alone. Itís been tried a few times and I am sure will be tried again.

FlyingKat
02-15-2018, 05:48 PM
Your history of scope at Delta is heavily flawed. Nobody had scope for the most part in the eighties. Scope evolved with the development of small jets. We did not allow anything. Management upgraded the regionals and we tried to hold that line. You donít always get what you want. Regardless it saved you from flying checks for 10 years all night long or single pilot cargo IFR at night for 8 bucks an hour until you had several thousand hours and could move on. Rode a jumpseat recently and the 23 year old copilot complained itís going to take him two years to make CA. Times have changed and certainly not for the worst.
If you have lifers itís not about scope. Unless they are over 55 they should be moving on. If not there is a reason.

LOL you need to get a history book. Regional codeshares that evolved into fee for departure could not exist without the agreement of mainline pilots. Delta Connection came into existence because a bunch of Delta pilots who flew F4s or B52s thought flying a Saab 340 or EMB 120 was somehow beneath their superior skills and the weak scope they negotiated came back to bite them and all of us in the ass.

Northwest pilots were bludgeoned into allowing large RJs during the strike in 1998 when they tried to hold the line at 35 seats while Delta was getting the 700s, which ironically had a larger footprint than the Northwest DC9-10 that Northwest was flying at the time.

Delta and its pilots are a large reason we have the mess we have today. I only hope you match the big talk you are making on this board with action when your management comes after the MRJs. However somehow I think you will cave, just like the past, when management throws a few more widebodies or some other eye candy at you.

FlyingKat
02-15-2018, 05:51 PM
Yawn.. what a tired old argument, what came first, todays RJ cesspool or the mainline cave? Hint, we don't want anything to do with those "little" jets.



Typical of the mainline arrogance that has cost pilots so much. Hint, hint those jobs in "little jets" should be mainline jobs at mainline pay.

Until mainline pilots get the attitude that if it has a mainline logo on the tail, then a mainline crew belongs int he cockpit, we are all screwed.

FlyingKat
02-15-2018, 05:52 PM
You could enjoy a far better overall quality of life at a mainline carrier and have job stability. I gather you donít follow the history of regionals very much. Bases and time shift constantly. Regionals come and go.
A pilot moving to Delta today will make 165 an hour as a 737/A321 copilot in year 3. Thatís 24 months after being hired. In addition he will get 30% or more in DC contributions and profit sharing. Thatís about 215 an hour. If QOL is the driver you could fly 50 hours a month and probably be ahead of regional wages. Thatís basically 2 four day trips a month.
If they are staying there is a reason for the majority opting not to move on.

Seriously I don't think you've spent the first day at a regional airline.

galaxy flyer
02-15-2018, 05:59 PM
FlyingKat,

There is no plausible argument that flying RJs at mainline rates is economically viable UNLESS, you mean RJs fly under the mainline seniority list at even lower pay scales. Add in the much higher costs of all the other parts and RJs wouldnít exist. They tried ďB scalesĒ and they created the same problem you bemoanódissension. Better dissension on another property, I guess.


GF

m20cmark21
02-15-2018, 06:12 PM
You could enjoy a far better overall quality of life at a mainline carrier and have job stability. I gather you don’t follow the history of regionals very much. Bases and time shift constantly. Regionals come and go.
A pilot moving to Delta today will make 165 an hour as a 737/A321 copilot in year 3. That’s 24 months after being hired. In addition he will get 30% or more in DC contributions and profit sharing. That’s about 215 an hour. If QOL is the driver you could fly 50 hours a month and probably be ahead of regional wages. That’s basically 2 four day trips a month.
If they are staying there is a reason for the majority opting not to move on.

Do you have the in at Delta? I'll PM you my Resume... I guess I should expect a call Monday then...

Right, because NO regional pilot wants to go to mainline... You sound ridiculous.

FlyingKat
02-15-2018, 10:11 PM
FlyingKat,

There is no plausible argument that flying RJs at mainline rates is economically viable UNLESS, you mean RJs fly under the mainline seniority list at even lower pay scales. Add in the much higher costs of all the other parts and RJs wouldnít exist. They tried ďB scalesĒ and they created the same problem you bemoanódissension. Better dissension on another property, I guess.


GF

It would have been possible to fly smaller aircraft at a rate of pay to keep them profitable and keep them at mainline. Mainline pilots just didn't think it was worth it and allowed the flying to be outsourced. The B scale still happened. It became known as regional airlines.

We all live in the reality created by mainline pilots. They control it, and if it is a priority to them they can get all this flying. It just hasn't been and that has cost the profession terribly.

I just get annoyed when mainline guys want to come over and lord over regional pilots like they know so much more about how we need to manage our careers, when they don't have the first effing clue how we operate and the environment they have created for us to live and work in.

MantisToboggan
02-16-2018, 05:41 AM
FlyingKat,

There is no plausible argument that flying RJs at mainline rates is economically viable UNLESS, you mean RJs fly under the mainline seniority list at even lower pay scales. Add in the much higher costs of all the other parts and RJs wouldn’t exist. They tried “B scales” and they created the same problem you bemoan—dissension. Better dissension on another property, I guess.


GF

It isn't economical to fly RJs with the guys up front getting paid mainline wages. I'll agree with that.

It's also not our problem. Making the operation profitable is managements responsibility. If the model of paying pilots a livable wage to fly their airplanes isn't profitable, I frankly don't give a damn. Sounds like they need to find a new model where we all benefit, not one where we take it in the shorts so they can make coin.

Why does the sacrifice fall on us? It amazes me how many of my regional collueges want nothing more than orders for bigger jets.


Less regional lift, more mainline flying.

Purpleanga
02-16-2018, 10:06 AM
It amazes me how many of my regional collueges want nothing more than orders for bigger jets.




In the Regional game more flying is as valuable currency. What good is having the pay when you have no airplanes to fly. In fact every single pilot group that has chosen higher pay over more flying has been screwed in the end. Itís unfortunate but itís the truth. This is how management controls the regional guys. Itís more or less the same on the mainline side but with more stability.

MantisToboggan
02-17-2018, 08:18 PM
In the Regional game more flying is as valuable currency. What good is having the pay when you have no airplanes to fly. In fact every single pilot group that has chosen higher pay over more flying has been screwed in the end. Itís unfortunate but itís the truth. This is how management controls the regional guys. Itís more or less the same on the mainline side but with more stability.

Bigger regional jets means more regional lift means less mainline lift means less mainline jobs means less money for you.

Again, my point is lost on many short sighted and naive regional pilots.

Enjoy your shiny big jet

DirkDiggler
02-17-2018, 08:28 PM
Bigger regional jets means more regional lift means less mainline lift means less mainline jobs means less money for you.

Again, my point is lost on many short sighted and naive regional pilots.

Enjoy your shiny big jet

Exactly. Pilots aren't the smartest bunch. The regionals need to be shut down all together. And mainline pilots will keep selling out scope for a few more dollars. Get on the ship and pull up the ladder.

Purpleanga
02-17-2018, 09:37 PM
Bigger regional jets means more regional lift means less mainline lift means less mainline jobs means less money for you.

Again, my point is lost on many short sighted and naive regional pilots.

Enjoy your shiny big jet

If you actually read what I wrote, I wasn’t disagreeing with you.

And by the way, bigger RJs means less RJ pilots since a bigger RJ can practically replace 2 50 seaters.

Purpleanga
02-17-2018, 09:43 PM
Exactly. Pilots aren't the smartest bunch. The regionals need to be shut down all together. And mainline pilots will keep selling out scope for a few more dollars. Get on the ship and pull up the ladder.

It’s not about smarts... who wouldn’t want more pay and benefits. It’s just that we are very very easy to control because management has something we need. They know we have no other true skills other than driving a plane so all they have to do is squeeze a bit and we fold right up.

SilentLurker
02-18-2018, 08:33 AM
This is the monster that ALPA has helped create.

ALPA is quite, Itís ignores, its negligent to take action as a big Union. MECs structure needs to die! Welcome to the 21st century ALPA. Electricians do not have Bscale, yet do have apprenticeships, or the trade learner. Not a Bscale work groups under the same ďUnionĒ representation.

Itís beyond logic when I tell my older fraternity brother who is a big time Union Leader in a different field (Electricians, and other trade groups). Some interesting statements he made, and ideas, and recommendations, and steps a group like ALPA should take. It confused him why ALPA mainline was not doing more for help ALPA regionals gain pay Parity.

Then he says itís most likely because ALPA mainline is GREEDY. They donít care because they are getting theirs. Theyíre only looking out for themselves and thatís not a true Union Representation. If they cared they would retroactively come up with something fair across the board, or develop a per regional seat /per souls system of carriage with respect to mainline pay and parity at the regional level, until the regional pilots joins the mainline job and union group. Why apply for a job with Delta when you are already flying Delta customers, flying a Delta Air Plane.

That they are sucking us dry doing the same job, flying equally advanced technology aircraft as mainline, but a fractions the pay. Although mainline do make more due to their responsibility it seems for carrying more souls thus larger responsibility. So that should be the judgment line, avg cost per passenger, and equipment/seats available on the aircraft you operate.

Take a 140-160 seater Boeing/Airbus @ 165/hr avg or more FO salary. Respectfully if ALPA National was doing its job, a regional FO anywhere should earn $70-$85 /hr base pay. This is more fair the the current system. To prevent increased in regional feed growth from Management, some sort of across the board ALPA scope of 2:1 for mainline aircraft to Regional aircraft. Deltaís Regional pilots are good enough to carry Delta passengers on a Delta ticket, on a Delta owned Airplane.... But are not good enough to be flying for Delta when they already are flying for Delta? It made no sense to my brother. He wondered how or why the Union was allowing all of this. GREED. They helped create this monster.

The pay mentioned above seems like what Delta:Endeavor have going on. Still Bscale. But something better that the past. It squeezes mainline to grow, vs regional feed when the profit margins of Mainline flying become more apparent on paper, mainline flying wins. You will never have 0 regional feed in your industry due to small markets and demand. Itís a pipe dream of impossibility with the current business model making everyone profitable! AA/DL/UA can not become Southwest. That opportunity sailed 20-40 years ago.

When was the last time a PILOT flying a 70 seat Jet aircraft for was in charge of ALPA he asked....

There goes your problem he said. Unequal representation he smirked, and GREED. I will not forget that talk.

Mesabah
02-18-2018, 12:02 PM
Your history of scope at Delta is heavily flawed. Nobody had scope for the most part in the eighties. Scope evolved with the development of small jets. We did not allow anything. Management upgraded the regionals and we tried to hold that line. You donít always get what you want. Regardless it saved you from flying checks for 10 years all night long or single pilot cargo IFR at night for 8 bucks an hour until you had several thousand hours and could move on. Rode a jumpseat recently and the 23 year old copilot complained itís going to take him two years to make CA. Times have changed and certainly not for the worst.
If you have lifers itís not about scope. Unless they are over 55 they should be moving on. If not there is a reason.
Delta caved on scope because merger policy was DOH. Delta inc, bought Comair/ASA for market share, and there should have been a merger when that happened. The history of RJ scope is basically Delta and Comair pilots really really hated each other.

MantisToboggan
02-18-2018, 12:51 PM
If you actually read what I wrote, I wasnít disagreeing with you.

And by the way, bigger RJs means less RJ pilots since a bigger RJ can practically replace 2 50 seaters.

Weird because your second line here is, well, literally disagreeing with me that bigger regional jets is bad for pilots.


These jets represent growth. They also allow more lift for whatever airline group at a lower pay scale. Aka the regionals. Want a review on what that means again?

Purpleanga
02-18-2018, 02:24 PM
Weird because your second line here is, well, literally disagreeing with me that bigger regional jets is bad for pilots.


These jets represent growth. They also allow more lift for whatever airline group at a lower pay scale. Aka the regionals. Want a review on what that means again?

Look i get your point. You want mainline service from Beckley, WV to Washington DC. in a big Airbus or 737 allowing for mainline jobs. Of course who wouldnít and I agree with you. Unfortunately thatís not reality. There will always need to be Regional service in North America. My point is would you rather there be 100 MRJs or 300 Small RJs flying around?

galaxy flyer
02-18-2018, 02:34 PM
It isn't economical to fly RJs with the guys up front getting paid mainline wages. I'll agree with that.

It's also not our problem. Making the operation profitable is managements responsibility. If the model of paying pilots a livable wage to fly their airplanes isn't profitable, I frankly don't give a damn. Sounds like they need to find a new model where we all benefit, not one where we take it in the shorts so they can make coin.

Why does the sacrifice fall on us? It amazes me how many of my regional collueges want nothing more than orders for bigger jets.


Less regional lift, more mainline flying.

Thought experiment: what if ďmanagementĒ said, ďwe donít need to fly RJs, if they want mainline payĒ?

I know several pilots who wouldnít be in any airplane were it not for RJs. You took the money.

GF

Baradium
02-18-2018, 05:15 PM
Look i get your point. You want mainline service from Beckley, WV to Washington DC. in a big Airbus or 737 allowing for mainline jobs. Of course who wouldnít and I agree with you. Unfortunately thatís not reality. There will always need to be Regional service in North America. My point is would you rather there be 100 MRJs or 300 Small RJs flying around?

They can already operate the 100 MRJs. With mainline pilots. And they can operate as many 76 seaters as they want that way too.

No, I would not rather let a regional fly the 100 MRJ. I don't want regionals to have the smaller RJs as it is. If mainline wants the MRJ, they can buy them for mainline and it can be a mainline job. If these larger RJs become efficient enough it may just be worth it to them to pay mainline wages to the pilots.

sailingfun
02-18-2018, 05:27 PM
Delta caved on scope because merger policy was DOH. Delta inc, bought Comair/ASA for market share, and there should have been a merger when that happened. The history of RJ scope is basically Delta and Comair pilots really really hated each other.

Merger policy was not DOH or anything close. The Comair MEC did however make it a point that they would ask for DOH. Delta had been through two prior mergers in 86 and 91 and both were ratio’s based on equipment.
DOH as a component of ALPA merger policy was completely removed in 1991. It was reinstated as one component that could be considered in 2009.

Purpleanga
02-18-2018, 10:14 PM
They can already operate the 100 MRJs. With mainline pilots. And they can operate as many 76 seaters as they want that way too.

No, I would not rather let a regional fly the 100 MRJ. I don't want regionals to have the smaller RJs as it is. If mainline wants the MRJ, they can buy them for mainline and it can be a mainline job. If these larger RJs become efficient enough it may just be worth it to them to pay mainline wages to the pilots.

Regional ops will always be cheaper than mainline even if pilots make mainline wages. I mean look at Republic, now they already make 100-140 an hour to fly an RJ.

Baradium
02-19-2018, 07:30 AM
Regional ops will always be cheaper than mainline even if pilots make mainline wages. I mean look at Republic, now they already make 100-140 an hour to fly an RJ.

Not if the larger RJs that Republic can't fly due to scope cost enough less to operate.

trip
02-19-2018, 07:52 AM
Thought experiment: what if “management” said, “we don’t need to fly RJs, if they want mainline pay”?

I know several pilots who wouldn’t be in any airplane were it not for RJs. You took the money.

GF

Sure, if they’re willing to fly a bus with 90 open seats every morning out of podunk Nebraska, effectively removing that same bus off a much more profitable route. The other option is leave the small markets and go head-head with all the LCCs.
Mainline pay? not even close, but 50% would be a huge improvement for the majority.

I’d be willing to call their bluff.

Bellanca
02-19-2018, 08:26 AM
I really don't think it will be that hard to get the pilots to yield on 1200-1400lbs mtow of scope. They've always gave away scope, I'm sure there is a carrot big enough to get 51% to vote yes. If anything, quite a few pilots never flew for a regional, or are so far removed from the regional/commuter $hit$how that I lack faith that they will put thier foot down to stop this.

I really hope I'm wrong. I'd rather never set foot in an MRJ cockpit than to see UAL, AA, DAL pilots sell any scope. And if they do, I really hope it's only mtow, NOT more seats, too.

Bellanca
02-19-2018, 10:36 AM
Regional ops will always be cheaper than mainline even if pilots make mainline wages. I mean look at Republic, now they already make 100-140 an hour to fly an RJ.

Are they already making these wages? or in a few years when the new pay scale tops out??

It's not just straight pay, most majors are throwing ~16% into the 401k, plus QOL, and being on a seniority list where you can bid a wide body or captain on 737 in a few short years to make double or more of what anyone at RAH or any other regional makes.

Baradium
02-19-2018, 11:02 AM
I really don't think it will be that hard to get the pilots to yield on 1200-1400lbs mtow of scope. They've always gave away scope, I'm sure there is a carrot big enough to get 51% to vote yes. If anything, quite a few pilots never flew for a regional, or are so far removed from the regional/commuter $hit$how that I lack faith that they will put thier foot down to stop this.

I really hope I'm wrong. I'd rather never set foot in an MRJ cockpit than to see UAL, AA, DAL pilots sell any scope. And if they do, I really hope it's only mtow, NOT more seats, too.


At this point a large portion of mainline pilots either came from regionals or watched furloughs happen at mainline because of the scope allowing the RJs. Even the new guys coming from MIL backgrounds seem to be very aware of scope and what it can cause.

I don't think there are enough guys close to retirement who would also sell out the industry for a quick buck for scope to get through anymore.

And 1400 lbs might not seem like a lot, but it might as well be 100,000 lbs if it means the company has to put the planes at mainline if they really want them.

Bellanca
02-19-2018, 11:11 AM
At this point a large portion of mainline pilots either came from regionals or watched furloughs happen at mainline because of the scope allowing the RJs. Even the new guys coming from MIL backgrounds seem to be very aware of scope and what it can cause.

I don't think there are enough guys close to retirement who would also sell out the industry for a quick buck for scope to get through anymore.

And 1400 lbs might not seem like a lot, but it might as well be 100,000 lbs if it means the company has to put the planes at mainline if they really want them.

I definitely hope you're right. I have less faith in the pilot groups drawing a line over 1400lbs. I have no problems with flying the MRJ as a mainline pilot, but I hope I never see it on property here or any other regional.

I have something to gain (at least in the short term) by the MRJ coming to Trans States. We fly tired old 50 seats that have an expiration date coming sooner than later. However, this would NOT be good for the industry.

sailingfun
02-19-2018, 11:28 AM
I really don't think it will be that hard to get the pilots to yield on 1200-1400lbs mtow of scope. They've always gave away scope, I'm sure there is a carrot big enough to get 51% to vote yes. If anything, quite a few pilots never flew for a regional, or are so far removed from the regional/commuter $hit$how that I lack faith that they will put thier foot down to stop this.

I really hope I'm wrong. I'd rather never set foot in an MRJ cockpit than to see UAL, AA, DAL pilots sell any scope. And if they do, I really hope it's only mtow, NOT more seats, too.

Everyone predicted the pilot groups would yield on scope in the last round of contract negotiations. These aircraft were conceived along with the New version of the E175 with that premise in mind. Everyone was wrong. Much of the gains on scope made by the airlines were based on the premise the feed would increase mainline jobs. CEOís also repeatadly promised that flying would return to the mainline when times got better. In fact neither happened. I suspect not 1 pound and not 1 seat will continue into the next round of contracts.
The other consideration is that they need the relief now. Orders need to be placed, plans made and slots procured. Contracts are amended all the time. No one is discussing this change.

Purpleanga
02-19-2018, 04:27 PM
Everyone predicted the pilot groups would yield on scope in the last round of contract negotiations. These aircraft were conceived along with the New version of the E175 with that premise in mind. Everyone was wrong. Much of the gains on scope made by the airlines were based on the premise the feed would increase mainline jobs. CEO’s also repeatadly promised that flying would return to the mainline when times got better. In fact neither happened. I suspect not 1 pound and not 1 seat will continue into the next round of contracts.
The other consideration is that they need the relief now. Orders need to be placed, plans made and slots procured. Contracts are amended all the time. No one is discussing this change.


They didn’t yield because management weren’t that serious on pursuing the scope relief. There is no MRJ available and there is no version 2 E175 either. I guarantee you once these planes are ready to go management will do anything and will get them on property, preferably at the regionals of course. These planes are the future. Who gets to fly them is just a matter of how much it costs to buy out mainline guys. Anyone who says they’ll turn down more $$$ for the greater good is full of crap.

msprj2
02-19-2018, 05:17 PM
Possibly there could be a deal reached if there was a large reduction
in the numbers of RJ's. Trade 3k lbs for 100 less RJ airframes???
That would mean more mainline jobs and fewer RJ's and new next
gen RJ's for mgt.

sailingfun
02-20-2018, 03:26 AM
They didnít yield because management werenít that serious on pursuing the scope relief. There is no MRJ available and there is no version 2 E175 either. I guarantee you once these planes are ready to go management will do anything and will get them on property, preferably at the regionals of course. These planes are the future. Who gets to fly them is just a matter of how much it costs to buy out mainline guys. Anyone who says theyíll turn down more $$$ for the greater good is full of crap.

The MRJ was promised in that time frame. The E175-2 is ready to go now. It was postponed specifically because the assured scope relief did not happen.

Purpleanga
02-20-2018, 07:57 AM
The MRJ was promised in that time frame. The E175-2 is ready to go now. It was postponed specifically because the assured scope relief did not happen.

It doesnít matter if it was promised, theyíre not going to pull the trigger unless itís certified and ready. The E175 2 was scheduled for 2020, well after contract talks. Plus if you say you want it in house then why didnít you guys already work out a deal for them???

sailingfun
02-20-2018, 10:21 AM
It doesn’t matter if it was promised, they’re not going to pull the trigger unless it’s certified and ready. The E175 2 was scheduled for 2020, well after contract talks. Plus if you say you want it in house then why didn’t you guys already work out a deal for them???

We have worked out a deal for in-house. It’s called the CS100. We have also had a E190 payrate in our contract for years. You seemed confused however on aircraft purchases. Management buys aircraft not unions. Had we allowed the MRJ or other aircraft we would not have the 717 and soon CS100 on the property and several thousand pilots who have moved up to Delta would still be at the regionals.

http://aviationweek.com/airline-fleets-network/manufacturers-not-expecting-e175-e2-mrj90-scope-relief

msprj2
02-20-2018, 11:03 AM
We have worked out a deal for in-house. Itís called the CS100. We have also had a E190 payrate in our contract for years. You seemed confused however on aircraft purchases. Management buys aircraft not unions. Had we allowed the MRJ or other aircraft we would not have the 717 and soon CS100 on the property and several thousand pilots who have moved up to Delta would still be at the regionals.

Manufacturers Not Expecting E175-E2, MRJ90 Scope Relief | Crossover Narrowbody Jets content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/airline-fleets-network/manufacturers-not-expecting-e175-e2-mrj90-scope-relief)

The MRJ or E175 or CRJ is/will not replace the 717/CS100. Its the
other way around. Stop taking credit. All you did was say no to bigger than current RJ's. The day you stop regional feed is the day
Southwest takes you behind the woodshed.

sailingfun
02-20-2018, 11:15 AM
The MRJ or E175 or CRJ is/will not replace the 717/CS100. Its the
other way around. Stop taking credit. All you did was say no to bigger than current RJ's. The day you stop regional feed is the day
Southwest takes you behind the woodshed.

Had we allowed the newer versions of those aircraft the company would have gone that route rather than purchase a 100 seater. In fact UAL is trying to convince their pilots to allow more capable regional jets and canceled their small jet program at the mainline.

msprj2
02-20-2018, 12:54 PM
Had we allowed the newer versions of those aircraft the company would have gone that route rather than purchase a 100 seater. In fact UAL is trying to convince their pilots to allow more capable regional jets and canceled their small jet program at the mainline.

They can buy e-175's not the e2 version. They can also buy the MRJ70.
The problem is the regionals are not reliable nor highly rated by the
customer. Mainlines want to keep them happy and paying a premium for mainline metrics. If regionals consistently performed as good as mainline for 1/2 - 2/3 the cost mgt would be happy and not trying
to up-guage. But they're not.

sailingfun
02-20-2018, 03:07 PM
They can buy e-175's not the e2 version. They can also buy the MRJ70.
The problem is the regionals are not reliable nor highly rated by the
customer. Mainlines want to keep them happy and paying a premium for mainline metrics. If regionals consistently performed as good as mainline for 1/2 - 2/3 the cost mgt would be happy and not trying
to up-guage. But they're not.

Deltaís regionals with maybe the exception of go jets are now performing quite well. We are maxed out on E175ís. They need a change in scope to get more.

msprj2
02-20-2018, 06:44 PM
Deltaís regionals with maybe the exception of go jets are now performing quite well. We are maxed out on E175ís. They need a change in scope to get more.

No, just replace crj7's with e175 70 seaters which is what SKW
has on order.

sailingfun
02-21-2018, 05:37 AM
No, just replace crj7's with e175 70 seaters which is what SKW
has on order.

They can do that. Itís a inefficient use of a airframe. Delta actually did this once before with the E170 configured at 69 seats.

Hot Richard
02-21-2018, 06:47 AM
They can do that. It’s a inefficient use of a airframe. Delta actually did this once before with the E170 configured at 69 seats.

It is inefficient, but it is futureproofing in case scope does change some way down the line. Easier to slap six seats in than to buy new hulls. American have been removing seats from CRJ700s to get them to comply will "small RJ" on scope so they see some merit to operating them in slightly less efficient configurations if it allows them to stay on property.

The only way I see scope changing to allow more large RJs would be if small RJs were parked in their place (not 1-1 ratio), and also for JV scope improvements.

The ex-Comair 700s were 2002-04 vintage, and probably 20 year hulls, so they can stick around until early 2020s.

Purpleanga
02-21-2018, 10:40 AM
We have worked out a deal for in-house. It’s called the CS100. We have also had a E190 payrate in our contract for years. You seemed confused however on aircraft purchases. Management buys aircraft not unions. Had we allowed the MRJ or other aircraft we would not have the 717 and soon CS100 on the property and several thousand pilots who have moved up to Delta would still be at the regionals.

Manufacturers Not Expecting E175-E2, MRJ90 Scope Relief | Crossover Narrowbody Jets content from Aviation Week (http://aviationweek.com/airline-fleets-network/manufacturers-not-expecting-e175-e2-mrj90-scope-relief)


Those aircraft do not compete with the MRJ or the 175E2. They're CRJ2/7/9 E145 replacements.The original point was you guys want regional flying in house. So why haven't you told your union that you would fly an RJ? Mainline guys do not want to fly regional jets. Again these planes are coming one way or another because current RJs are getting old and nobody wants to fly on them.

sailingfun
02-21-2018, 02:23 PM
Those aircraft do not compete with the MRJ or the 175E2. They're CRJ2/7/9 E145 replacements.The original point was you guys want regional flying in house. So why haven't you told your union that you would fly an RJ? Mainline guys do not want to fly regional jets. Again these planes are coming one way or another because current RJs are getting old and nobody wants to fly on them.

You again seem to think the union can decide to bring the flying in-house and that makes it happen. The shift to above 50 seat RJís was shoved down are throats when times where tough in the industry. The biggest migration occurred when the survival of the airline was in doubt. DALPA spent a lot of money attempting to show we could operate the E170/175 at the mainline. We tried to get those airframes at the mainline. The increase in weight to 86,000 lbs that allowed those airframes was one of the most controversial aspects of LOA46 in the chapter 11 process. In the end we lost the battle and hundreds of pilots were furloughed as a result. Times are very different today and I am extremely confident we can hold the line at not one more lb or one more seat. You should be cheering us along and hoping we succeed in that goal. Itís your future not mine!

Geardownflaps30
02-21-2018, 04:21 PM
No, just replace crj7's with e175 70 seaters which is what SKW
has on order.

Only room for 10-12 more of those right now under DALPA scope rules. Too lazy to go look it up right now.

zondaracer
02-22-2018, 04:31 AM
Delta scope:
125 50 seat aircraft
325 51-76 aircraft of which up to 223 can be 71-76 seats.
450 total regional aircraft

Once the Expressjet/ASA Delta flying winds down, Endeavor parks 16 CRJ200s and takes on the 31 Expressjet aircraft, and SkyWest takes on the E175SCs, scope for Delta will be maxed out.

Knobcrk1
02-22-2018, 05:30 AM
I think from what I remember only Alaska can take on these MRJs. As it’s been mentioned Spirit and Frontier maybe although not sure how having RJs would be beneficial to them. It’s going to be interesting to see as I highly doubt you’re going to see these planes flown by Legacy pilots. United, Delta, and others I’m sure do not want to operate Regional jets, keeping in mind they account for almost half the domestic flying. I think we should all just be under one list, bring all the regionals together with their mainline pilots so we wouldn’t have anymore issues. But of course pilots are their own worst enemy.

MantisToboggan
02-22-2018, 05:45 AM
I think from what I remember only Alaska can take on these MRJs. As itís been mentioned Spirit and Frontier maybe although not sure how having RJs would be beneficial to them. Itís going to be interesting to see as I highly doubt youíre going to see these planes flown by Legacy pilots. United, Delta, and others Iím sure do not want to operate Regional jets, keeping in mind they account for almost half the domestic flying. I think we should all just be under one list, bring all the regionals together with their mainline pilots so we wouldnít have anymore issues. But of course pilots are their own worst enemy.

Yeah I'm kind of confused on this one....

According to the all knowing wikipedia, Trans States Holdings has orders for 5 MRJ70s and 50 MRJ90s.... how is this possible with current scope agreements?

Purpleanga
02-22-2018, 06:17 AM
You again seem to think the union can decide to bring the flying in-house and that makes it happen. The shift to above 50 seat RJís was shoved down are throats when times where tough in the industry. The biggest migration occurred when the survival of the airline was in doubt. DALPA spent a lot of money attempting to show we could operate the E170/175 at the mainline. We tried to get those airframes at the mainline. The increase in weight to 86,000 lbs that allowed those airframes was one of the most controversial aspects of LOA46 in the chapter 11 process. In the end we lost the battle and hundreds of pilots were furloughed as a result. Times are very different today and I am extremely confident we can hold the line at not one more lb or one more seat. You should be cheering us along and hoping we succeed in that goal. Itís your future not mine!

Why would I be cheering with you to take my job? Are you going to hire me after?? Iím not one of those pretentious weirdos who pretend their regional time is just a formality while browsing the delta website day and night. Iím sure you really care about my future from up high in that delta cockpit. What you care about is getting rid of what pays the bills for me right now, not me. You guys make it over there pull the ladder underneath you, thereís so much hypocrisy.

sailingfun
02-22-2018, 12:47 PM
Why would I be cheering with you to take my job? Are you going to hire me after?? Iím not one of those pretentious weirdos who pretend their regional time is just a formality while browsing the delta website day and night. Iím sure you really care about my future from up high in that delta cockpit. What you care about is getting rid of what pays the bills for me right now, not me. You guys make it over there pull the ladder underneath you, thereís so much hypocrisy.

So you plan on being a regional pilot for life? Keep in mind you will have a career always at the mercy of the next contract. No one is however trying to take your job. We are however going to hold the line at a migration of additional mainline flying being outsourced. Itís interesting on the one hand you claim we are trying to take your job and another poster right above you claims we dont want to fly those jets. That claim is off course utter BS. We would be happy to have the next generation of smaller jets at the mainline just as we were happy to have the DC-9ís seating the same.
TSA can fly all the MRJ-90ís they want. They just canít do it while flying contract work for Delta. They agreed to that when they took on those contracts. I believe that AMR and UAL have the same provisions. If we allow that flying at the regionals we cap our future CS100 flying. We are not going to do that short of another chapter 11 filing which seems highly unlikely.

sailingfun
02-22-2018, 12:51 PM
Yeah I'm kind of confused on this one....

According to the all knowing wikipedia, Trans States Holdings has orders for 5 MRJ70s and 50 MRJ90s.... how is this possible with current scope agreements?

The orders were placed when everyone predicted the big 4 would cave on scope. They did not and now the orders are in limbo. It costs virtually nothing to place a aircraft order. 10,000 dollars will get you a 777 order. There is little risk in placing orders.
If TSA accepts delivery of a MRJ-90 that is when they will be in violation of their contracts with the majors.

msprj2
02-23-2018, 04:57 AM
The orders were placed when everyone predicted the big 4 would cave on scope. They did not and now the orders are in limbo. It costs virtually nothing to place a aircraft order. 10,000 dollars will get you a 777 order. There is little risk in placing orders.
If TSA accepts delivery of a MRJ-90 that is when they will be in violation of their contracts with the majors.

A lot can happen in 3 years!

sailingfun
02-23-2018, 07:09 AM
A lot can happen in 3 years!

Letís hope for the industry and the profession that nothing changes!

msprj2
02-23-2018, 10:07 AM
Seems like it would be a good time to allow an 89K RJ but reduce
the quantity by 30-50%???

MantisToboggan
02-23-2018, 01:08 PM
Seems like it would be a good time to allow an 89K RJ but reduce
the quantity by 30-50%???

Not willing to open that door. If flying smaller planes isn't profitable, they should create more mainline jobs. Not our problem

FlyingKat
02-23-2018, 06:38 PM
Letís hope for the industry and the profession that nothing changes!

Let's just hope you and your buddies at Delta can back up your big talk.

Baradium
02-23-2018, 10:16 PM
Seems like it would be a good time to allow an 89K RJ but reduce
the quantity by 30-50%???

Not going to happen.

Purpleanga
02-24-2018, 05:56 AM
Not going to happen.

If you can predict the future that well please PM me some lotto numbers!

Purpleanga
02-24-2018, 05:59 AM
So you plan on being a regional pilot for life? Keep in mind you will have a career always at the mercy of the next contract. No one is however trying to take your job. We are however going to hold the line at a migration of additional mainline flying being outsourced. Itís interesting on the one hand you claim we are trying to take your job and another poster right above you claims we dont want to fly those jets. That claim is off course utter BS. We would be happy to have the next generation of smaller jets at the mainline just as we were happy to have the DC-9ís seating the same.
TSA can fly all the MRJ-90ís they want. They just canít do it while flying contract work for Delta. They agreed to that when they took on those contracts. I believe that AMR and UAL have the same provisions. If we allow that flying at the regionals we cap our future CS100 flying. We are not going to do that short of another chapter 11 filing which seems highly unlikely.

You can say whatever you want but donít claim that you care about me or my job.

sailingfun
02-24-2018, 06:07 AM
Seems like it would be a good time to allow an 89K RJ but reduce
the quantity by 30-50%???

Management would never buy into that. They would just buy more E175ís.

Purpleanga
02-24-2018, 06:08 AM
Let's just hope you and your buddies at Delta can back up your big talk.

These two guys might vote no but most of their buddies will vote it in for more $$$. Looking back at history nobody has turned down money for the greater good below them if the circumstance was right. These planes are coming, question is would they actually fly them?

MantisToboggan
02-24-2018, 06:27 AM
These two guys might vote no but most of their buddies will vote it in for more $$$. Looking back at history nobody has turned down money for the greater good below them if the circumstance was right. These planes are coming, question is would they actually fly them?

So you're saying mainline is gonna vote to relax scope? With a serious face?

sailingfun
02-24-2018, 06:35 AM
These two guys might vote no but most of their buddies will vote it in for more $$$. Looking back at history nobody has turned down money for the greater good below them if the circumstance was right. These planes are coming, question is would they actually fly them?

Can you provide specific contracts were pilots received raises for scope concessions? In most contracts scope is settled after pay.

Redbird611
02-24-2018, 06:50 AM
Seems like it would be a good time to allow an 89K RJ but reduce
the quantity by 30-50%???

Horrible idea. Not one more pound. Once the more capable aircraft is operating at a sub-contractor it'll be far too easy for them to seek expanded quantity in a future downturn. If the heavier airplane is needed by network to fill a market niche it can be operated by mainline pilots. The regional hunger-games must end.

msprj2
02-24-2018, 08:51 AM
Horrible idea. Not one more pound. Once the more capable aircraft is operating at a sub-contractor it'll be far too easy for them to seek expanded quantity in a future downturn. If the heavier airplane is needed by network to fill a market niche it can be operated by mainline pilots. The regional hunger-games must end.

I didnít see weight increases as a more capable aircraft just a more efficient one ďgeared enginesĒ. You major guys hold the cards saying not one more pound is not the answer . How about payscales that compete with top regional pay. Make it pointless for regionals to exist??

knobcrk
02-24-2018, 11:07 AM
Can you provide specific contracts were pilots received raises for scope concessions? In most contracts scope is settled after pay.

The whole Bankruptcy thing is a myth.

Knobcrk1
02-24-2018, 02:02 PM
Horrible idea. Not one more pound. Once the more capable aircraft is operating at a sub-contractor it'll be far too easy for them to seek expanded quantity in a future downturn. If the heavier airplane is needed by network to fill a market niche it can be operated by mainline pilots. The regional hunger-games must end.

Itís not going to end. Without regional feed, half your 737 would be empty. You see the problem?

Baradium
02-24-2018, 03:09 PM
These two guys might vote no but most of their buddies will vote it in for more $$$. Looking back at history nobody has turned down money for the greater good below them if the circumstance was right. These planes are coming, question is would they actually fly them?

The majority of the pilots at mainline now have personally experienced the downside to relaxing scope. There were many at the time that did not think it would affect them personally, and then the furloughs came. Now they are hungry for the pilot positions and see value in people below them. That isn't just a greater good issue, it's a good for the individual issue as well.

Baradium
02-24-2018, 03:13 PM
Itís not going to end. Without regional feed, half your 737 would be empty. You see the problem?

Worked fine before subcontractors came along. Without the regional served ROUTES you may be right, but it doesn't have to be a regional feeder to fly them.

With regional pay rising, the cost differential between an RJ operator flying a route and mainline flying it. Add in more efficient aircraft that are too heavy for scope and the costs narrow even further. A few pounds in this case is a big deal, and it could be very good for the industry overall.

sailingfun
02-24-2018, 10:42 PM
Itís not going to end. Without regional feed, half your 737 would be empty. You see the problem?

Not if you are providing that feed yourself. You also might look at the total number of passengers fed to the mainline. If we allow aircraft with these capabilities they are no longer providing feed, they are replaning mainline lift. Thankfully mainline scope also contains restrictions on both distance and hub to hub flights.
I can assure you if Delta gets the ability to outsource the MRJ-90 we can kiss the 717ís goodbye when the leases are up.

msprj2
02-25-2018, 03:22 AM
Not if you are providing that feed yourself. You also might look at the total number of passengers fed to the mainline. If we allow aircraft with these capabilities they are no longer providing feed, they are replaning mainline lift. Thankfully mainline scope also contains restrictions on both distance and hub to hub flights.
I can assure you if Delta gets the ability to outsource the MRJ-90 we can kiss the 717ís goodbye when the leases are up.

Way off l think.
The CS100 and 300 will replace the 717. The MRJ 70 and 90 would replace the CRJ700 and 900 along with the EMB 170 and
175.
If you could exchange Wt for number of MRJís. Seems like a compromise could be made.
Right now around 325 69-76 seaters. Why not try to reduce that number to around 200 Or so. I seriously doubt Mgt would
Go for it though.

FlyingKat
02-25-2018, 03:34 AM
So you're saying mainline is gonna vote to relax scope? With a serious face?


What is past is prologue. It has happened before and will likely happen again. The guys with the MBAs have been punking mainline pilot groups for years on scope. If management wants it bad enough, they will give mainline enough carrots to make it happen. Then you will be running around bragging we got xxx for scope.

sailingfun
02-25-2018, 05:41 AM
Way off l think.
The CS100 and 300 will replace the 717. The MRJ 70 and 90 would replace the CRJ700 and 900 along with the EMB 170 and
175.
If you could exchange Wt for number of MRJís. Seems like a compromise could be made.
Right now around 325 69-76 seaters. Why not try to reduce that number to around 200 Or so. I seriously doubt Mgt would
Go for it though.

The current CS orders are not intended as 717 replacement. They are planned for additional migration of flying from the regionals to the mainline and growth. Fleet plan has all CSís delivered well before they start parking 717ís.

Purpleanga
02-25-2018, 08:54 AM
Can you provide specific contracts were pilots received raises for scope concessions? In most contracts scope is settled after pay.

You must be kidding. Management has played you guys like a fiddle. As I said before, the aircraft are not available yet, even the 175v2 thatís for 2020. When they are you can bet management will get their way.

Purpleanga
02-25-2018, 09:00 AM
Not if you are providing that feed yourself. You also might look at the total number of passengers fed to the mainline. If we allow aircraft with these capabilities they are no longer providing feed, they are replaning mainline lift. Thankfully mainline scope also contains restrictions on both distance and hub to hub flights.
I can assure you if Delta gets the ability to outsource the MRJ-90 we can kiss the 717ís goodbye when the leases are up.

The MRJ is not a 717 replacement. Itís a ERJ/CRJ replacement. Thatís what some here are trying to tell you. Itís makes more sense to reduce RJ feed by adding bigger RJs so thereís less total regional feed. Thereís no chance Delta will take that in house. Mostly because it doesnít make sense financially to take on this massive feed when the regional can do it for much less. Also good luck getting mainline guys to fly 4,5 legs a day again.

sailingfun
02-26-2018, 07:09 AM
The MRJ is not a 717 replacement. It’s a ERJ/CRJ replacement. That’s what some here are trying to tell you. It’s makes more sense to reduce RJ feed by adding bigger RJs so there’s less total regional feed. There’s no chance Delta will take that in house. Mostly because it doesn’t make sense financially to take on this massive feed when the regional can do it for much less. Also good luck getting mainline guys to fly 4,5 legs a day again.

What you fail to understand is we have lived the evolution of scope. The E175-2/MRJ absolutely would work as a 717 replacement. It’s close enough and actually has better range. It would not be a 175 replacement. Delta plans a 30 year life cycle on airframes. They are a long way from needing replacement.
In your cost statement you make my point. At the cost it could be flown at the regionals the majors would not take on a 100 to 120 seat airframe. The CEO of UAL has said exactly that and backed it up by canceling their small aircraft order.
We fly 4 and 5 leg days now at Delta.

sailingfun
02-26-2018, 07:13 AM
You must be kidding. Management has played you guys like a fiddle. As I said before, the aircraft are not available yet, even the 175v2 that’s for 2020. When they are you can bet management will get their way.

I guess you missed the entire scope debate in the last contract cycle. Airlines were planning on the E190 at the regionals and both the MRJ and E175-2 were supposed to be ready much early. Several regionals had the 190’s on order and every expert said the unions would cave and allow them. Did not happen. We won’t sell your future. You should be thankful!
I guess in answer to the other question you can’t provide a single example.

WildBlue025
02-26-2018, 08:58 AM
This thread blows.

Purpleanga
02-26-2018, 12:54 PM
What you fail to understand is we have lived the evolution of scope. The E175-2/MRJ absolutely would work as a 717 replacement. Itís close enough and actually has better range. It would not be a 175 replacement. Delta plans a 30 year life cycle on airframes. They are a long way from needing replacement.
In your cost statement you make my point. At the cost it could be flown at the regionals the majors would not take on a 100 to 120 seat airframe. The CEO of UAL has said exactly that and backed it up by canceling their small aircraft order.
We fly 4 and 5 leg days now at Delta.

In the end all regional feed is mainline replacement. But the MRJ is not a true mainline AC replacement. It will only have 75 to 80 seats. Itís just a few thousand pounds heavier than a 175. It will be used to replace 50 seaters and older CRJ7/9s. Thatís what you need. Less regional aircraft.

Purpleanga
02-26-2018, 01:02 PM
I guess you missed the entire scope debate in the last contract cycle. Airlines were planning on the E190 at the regionals and both the MRJ and E175-2 were supposed to be ready much early. Several regionals had the 190ís on order and every expert said the unions would cave and allow them. Did not happen. We wonít sell your future. You should be thankful!
I guess in answer to the other question you canít provide a single example.

The future has already been sold. All Legacyís have tons of RJs flying for them. Small and big.

sailingfun
02-26-2018, 01:32 PM
In the end all regional feed is mainline replacement. But the MRJ is not a true mainline AC replacement. It will only have 75 to 80 seats. Itís just a few thousand pounds heavier than a 175. It will be used to replace 50 seaters and older CRJ7/9s. Thatís what you need. Less regional aircraft.

It canít be used to replace any 50/70 seaters since they are at the limit for large regionals. Unless you are advocating waiving that limit also.

Baradium
02-26-2018, 09:37 PM
The MRJ is not a 717 replacement. Itís a ERJ/CRJ replacement. Thatís what some here are trying to tell you. Itís makes more sense to reduce RJ feed by adding bigger RJs so thereís less total regional feed. Thereís no chance Delta will take that in house. Mostly because it doesnít make sense financially to take on this massive feed when the regional can do it for much less. Also good luck getting mainline guys to fly 4,5 legs a day again.


No it doesn't make more sense. Bigger RJs still gives up more flying that is closer to ML equipment. It might make sense to the company, but it doesn't from a pilot standpoint.

And the second part is exactly why we don't want to allow it. These newer aircraft are more efficient, which means it puts mainline pilots that much closer to the cost of outsourcing pilots on the older airframes. Why give them even more efficiency against us?

As far as 4 and 5 leg days, there are plenty of ML schedules that do that, such as the 717 and MD-88.