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Paladin145
02-15-2018, 04:43 AM
As a new jet pilot, I am just starting to scratch the surface on this topic.
I would love to hear from some experienced Jet pilots on how to consistently make crosswind landings, with minimal risk of a wing tip strike ( specifcially the CRJ-200.)

I've found some great articles that talk about techniques for various aircraft. On the CRJ-200, There seems to be debate about:

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".
- how much wing low to use?
- how close to the runway to use wing low.
- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. )

Crosswind Landings (http://code7700.com/crosswind_landing.htm)


Paladin145
02-15-2018, 05:41 AM
As a new jet pilot, I am just starting to scratch the surface on this topic.
I would love to hear from some experienced Jet pilots on how to consistently make crosswind landings, with minimal risk of a wing tip strike ( specifcially the CRJ-200.)

I've found some great articles that talk about techniques for various aircraft. On the CRJ-200, There seems to be debate about:

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".
- how much wing low to use?
- how close to the runway to use wing low.
- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. )

Crosswind Landings (http://code7700.com/crosswind_landing.htm)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MwsDskzefo

Learflyer
02-15-2018, 06:07 AM
I fly a Citation X with about a 44 degree (or whatever) wing sweep. How much aileron do I use on crosswinds? Hardly any. The crab and kick method is the most logical one for this bird. For the most part, I will come over the fence at about 130 knots and will allow a flatter approach for visibility. At near moment of ground contact I will kick the rudder and reduce aileron keeping it in slightly of course to the wind.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


galaxy flyer
02-15-2018, 06:30 AM
Starting on final, be stabilized without adding knots for everybody you know. The importance of speed control comes soon.

Get a feel for the amount of crab angle is required and hence how much you need to decrab. Move your “aimpoint” upwind of the centerline, probably 25’; you want your butt on the upwind side. Remember your mains trail you downwind, so if your butt is on the centerline the mains and, more importantly, the pivot point is downwind and OFF the centerline. The last place you want to start the flare/decrab is on the downwind half of the runway.

As you go thru 20’ (visually, not staring at the RadAlt), maintain centerline, start the flare and “squeeze”out the crab angle. “Kick” implies a rapid, strong input; you are aligning the flight path to the runway. Here’s where speed control is important! If you decrab early, take too big a kick, or play around flaring and getting rid excess speed, drift will rapidly build. Putting the crab BACK in is functionally impossible this close to the surface--go around. It’s probably better to land with some crab on than to touch drifting downwind toward the edges.

Watch the PFD, while the captain is landing. 5* is a lot of bank, strive for wings level at the touchdown and you’ll probably not scrap a wingtip. Usually, you will have some wing down.

Couple of cautions: if you touchdown hard, with bank, the plane we’ll rotate laterally as the grounded gear is the fulcrum and the high side comes to Earth. This can lead to the upwind wing scrapping. As the pilot moves in his seat, it is possible to add some aileron on the wrong side. I’ve seen this in investigations of a CL 300 scrap; crew got the upwind flap canoe. An AF Global reportedly got both wingtips this way.

Excess speed equals float which exactly what you don’t need. That means close watch on final to IAS and keep it under control.

Do NOT get slow or let the pitch (body) angke get too high. High pitch angles out the tips closer to the runway meaning less ckearance. Fly it on at Vref to no less than Vref-5.

Don’t stop flying the plane until taxi speed, the crosswind will try to raise the upwind wing, you’ll need a fair amount of upwind aileron as you slow.

This all comes from 3,500 hours in the Global and Challenger and 5,000 touch and goes instructing in the C-5. Nary a scrap.

I’ve used this video in briefings:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Mv15t2Pg

GF

Paladin145
02-15-2018, 06:42 AM
Starting on final, be stabilized without adding knots for everybody you know. The importance of speed control comes soon.

Get a feel for the amount of crab angle is required and hence how much you need to decrab. Move your “aimpoint” upwind of the centerline, probably 25’; you want your butt on the upwind side. Remember your mains trail you downwind, so if your butt is on the centerline the mains and, more importantly, the pivot point is downwind and OFF the centerline. The last place you want to start the flare/decrab is on the downwind half of the runway.

As you go thru 20’ (visually, not staring at the RadAlt), maintain centerline, start the flare and “squeeze”out the crab angle. “Kick” implies a rapid, strong input; you are aligning the flight path to the runway. Here’s where speed control is important! If you decrab early, take too big a kick, or play around flaring and getting rid excess speed, drift will rapidly build. Putting the crab BACK in is functionally impossible this close to the surface--go around. It’s probably better to land with some crab on than to touch drifting downwind toward the edges.

Watch the PFD, while the captain is landing. 5* is a lot of bank, strive for wings level at the touchdown and you’ll probably not scrap a wingtip. Usually, you will have some wing down.

Couple of cautions: if you touchdown hard, with bank, the plane we’ll rotate laterally as the grounded gear is the fulcrum and the high side comes to Earth. This can lead to the upwind wing scrapping. As the pilot moves in his seat, it is possible to add some aileron on the wrong side. I’ve seen this in investigations of a CL 300 scrap; crew got the upwind flap canoe. An AF Global reportedly got both wingtips this way.

Excess speed equals float which exactly what you don’t need. That means close watch on final to IAS and keep it under control.

Do NOT get slow or let the pitch (body) angke get too high. High pitch angles out the tips closer to the runway meaning less ckearance. Fly it on at Vref to no less than Vref-5.

Don’t stop flying the plane until taxi speed, the crosswind will try to raise the upwind wing, you’ll need a fair amount of upwind aileron as you slow.

This all comes from 3,500 hours in the Global and Challenger and 5,000 touch and goes instructing in the C-5. Nary a scrap.

I’ve used this video in briefings:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GW0Mv15t2Pg

GF

Thank you, gentlemen ! Great info ! I will share with the other nuggets.

rickair7777
02-15-2018, 08:59 AM
As a new jet pilot, I am just starting to scratch the surface on this topic.
I would love to hear from some experienced Jet pilots on how to consistently make crosswind landings, with minimal risk of a wing tip strike ( specifcially the CRJ-200.)

I've found some great articles that talk about techniques for various aircraft. On the CRJ-200, There seems to be debate about:

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".
- how much wing low to use?
- how close to the runway to use wing low.
- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. )

Crosswind Landings (http://code7700.com/crosswind_landing.htm)

For the CRJ200..

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".

I would do it really close, like "10". That would prevent side drift. If you're new to the plane, might do it a little higher until you get a feel. With practice on a 200, you can kick it out right into a LDG.

- how much wing low to use?

As much as needed, respecting max demonstrated XW. If I needed a relatively high bank angle for a gust I would take some of that out at the last moment just to be safe... a little drift is better than too much bank, they replace the tires regularly anyway. The CRJ700 is prone to hitting wingtips, I don't recall that being much of an issue on the 200.


- how close to the runway to use wing low.

Somewhere between "20" and touchdown. You can use it a little all the way to touchdown, but go easy when you're new.


- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. ).

You want to nose on the CL when you kick it out. So you have kind of eyeball that with a big crab, YOU will be noticeably off CL (upwind) when crabbing, that way the center of the plane will be on CL the whole time. When you kick it out, the plane will rotate around it's center, moving the nose (and you) onto CL. If you're a little off, no big deal, but on CL is the way Pros do it. On CL gives you margin to either side in case of asymmetric braking, reversers, wind drift, ice, etc.

Paladin145
02-15-2018, 09:04 AM
For the CRJ200..

- what RA height to "kick out the rudder".

I would do it really close, like "10". That would prevent side drift. If you're new to the plane, might do it a little higher until you get a feel. With practice on a 200, you can kick it out right into a LDG.

- how much wing low to use?

As much as needed, respecting max demonstrated XW. If I needed a relatively high bank angle for a gust I would take some of that out at the last moment just to be safe... a little drift is better than too much bank, they replace the tires regularly anyway. The CRJ700 is prone to hitting wingtips, I don't recall that being much of an issue on the 200.


- how close to the runway to use wing low.

Somewhere between "20" and touchdown. You can use it a little all the way to touchdown, but go easy when you're new.


- how far off the center line the nose can be, if any. ( if you have it perfectly straight, that involves more wing down. At > 15 kts crosswind, these seems to be getting close to the 5 ' AOB limit. ).

You want to nose on the CL when you kick it out. So you have kind of eyeball that with a big crab, YOU will be noticeably off CL (upwind) when crabbing, that way the center of the plane will be on CL the whole time. When you kick it out, the plane will rotate around it's center, moving the nose (and you) onto CL. If you're a little off, no big deal, but on CL is the way Pros do it. On CL gives you margin to either side in case of asymmetric braking, reversers, wind drift, ice, etc.

Thank you, Rick Air. Great info. This clears up a lot. I was getting different input from different LCA's.

WesternSkies
02-15-2018, 01:11 PM
A firm, quick touchdown while sideslipping the airplane as late as possible is best IMO.

Don’t fear dragging the upwind wing on a normal stiff crosswind. A little slip goes a long way in the duece.

Look at the image of Mesa dragging a wing tip, the picture outside from that cockpit would have been pretty extreme.
The worst I’ve seen are guys who don’t slip (forgot?).

Unnecessarily dropping a wing on the 700 just before touchdown can actually really help your landings until you get the 700 technique down.

Paladin145
02-15-2018, 03:52 PM
I had one LCA say if you try to flare, and land soft a " crosswind will eat you up in this airplane." That same trip I landed 12 knots steady x wind, and just set it down, with xwind correction as low as possible. Works great. On centerline, no drift. What worries me is the 27 kts.

A firm, quick touchdown while sideslipping the airplane as late as possible is best IMO.

Don’t fear dragging the upwind wing on a normal stiff crosswind. A little slip goes a long way in the duece.

Look at the image of Mesa dragging a wing tip, the picture outside from that cockpit would have been pretty extreme.
The worst I’ve seen are guys who don’t slip (forgot?).

Unnecessarily dropping a wing on the 700 just before touchdown can actually really help your landings until you get the 700 technique down.

1wife2airlines
02-15-2018, 07:01 PM
Just to be clear, there is no rudder to kick out in the flare, there is a crab angle, in coordinated flight, which must be reduced to runway alignment using rudder for longitudinal correction while using aileron to keep the upwind wing from rising due to the yaw. This crosscontrol in the flare is also be called a slip.
Any aileron input error should be to the excess which would put the upwind gear down earlier than the downwind. Some guys do that on purpose.
I've seen more sideslip to landing sideloads on big jets caused by the guy who wants to fly it like a cub than sideloads by guys who did not decrab enough.
If your airplane does autoland read how it corrects for X-wind.
Even on aircraft designed to land in a crab, such as the T-38, most guys naturally gravitated to a decrab in the flare.

Paladin145
02-16-2018, 06:23 AM
Thank you! That makes perfect sense.
I was thinking the wing would raise due to the yaw at last seccond, but the aerodynamics of a landing a swept wing jet were never explained in our training. You would think it would be worth 30 minutes, or so :)


Just to be clear, there is no rudder to kick out in the flare, there is a crab angle, in coordinated flight, which must be reduced to runway alignment using rudder for longitudinal correction while using aileron to keep the upwind wing from rising due to the yaw. This crosscontrol in the flare is also be called a slip.
Any aileron input error should be to the excess which would put the upwind gear down earlier than the downwind. Some guys do that on purpose.
I've seen more sideslip to landing sideloads on big jets caused by the guy who wants to fly it like a cub than sideloads by guys who did not decrab enough.
If your airplane does autoland read how it corrects for X-wind.
Even on aircraft designed to land in a crab, such as the T-38, most guys naturally gravitated to a decrab in the flare.

Paladin145
02-17-2018, 06:06 AM
Nice landing, in my rookie opinion.
What I noticed:

- removed crab as low as possible ; about 5 feet it seemed ?
- still had some crab into wind.
- appeared to touchdown in slight crab, with slight side load.
- straightened nose after touch down.
- kept wings level. ( no chance of wing strike.)

Any thoughts on this one ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wol0Lh10gOs

WesternSkies
02-17-2018, 06:19 AM
Nice landing, in my rookie opinion.
What I noticed:

- removed crab as low as possible ; about 5 feet it seemed ?
- still had some crab into wind.
- appeared to touchdown in slight crab, with slight side load.
- straightened nose after touch down.
- kept wings level. ( no chance of wing strike.)

Any thoughts on this one ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wol0Lh10gOs

technique is technique but I don’t know anyone who lands in the crab except by accident.
This guys downwind wing definitely dips for lack of ailerons control.
There is plenty of aileron control and no need to side load these airplanes in normal ops.

What isn’t technique is momentum.

Adlerdriver
02-17-2018, 07:01 AM
technique is technique but I don’t know anyone who lands in the crab except by accident.
FYI, 777F cross-wind limits are 38 knots. With a x-wind component in excess of 28 knots, it's not possible to get to zero crab and the aircraft must be landed while crabbed.

Also, the aircraft is actually certified to land up to the maximum crosswind limits in a full crab (not my first choice of technique, personally). While not recommended on a dry runway in very strong x-winds, this is actually may be desirable with a slippery runway.

galaxy flyer
02-17-2018, 07:04 AM
Nice landing, in my rookie opinion.
What I noticed:

- removed crab as low as possible ; about 5 feet it seemed ?
- still had some crab into wind.
- appeared to touchdown in slight crab, with slight side load.
- straightened nose after touch down.
- kept wings level. ( no chance of wing strike.)

Any thoughts on this one ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wol0Lh10gOs

Pilot didn’t fully decrab; the right (downwind) wing dropped as the gear “took out the crab” the hard way. The rotation on the pivot point caused the wing to drop. It’s hard for a pilot to input aileron to stop the wingtip drop caused this way, as the rotation about the downwind gear is sudden and concurrent with touchdown. You are being, to some degree, being “tossed” in your seat at the same time as the wingtip moves. This is how downwind tips get stuck.

Better to land with some crab on than overdo the decrab input and land in a drift with the nose pointed a bit downwind.

WesternSkies
02-17-2018, 07:20 AM
FYI, 777F cross-wind limits are 38 knots. With a x-wind component in excess of 28 knots, it's not possible to get to zero crab and the aircraft must be landed while crabbed.

Also, the aircraft is actually certified to land up to the maximum crosswind limits in a full crab (not my first choice of technique, personally). While not recommended on a dry runway in very strong x-winds, this is actually may be desirable with a slippery runway.

Interesting. Makes me think of that Boeing x-wind cert video.
For clarity in my previous post I was speaking of the CRJ series specifically, I hope I wouldn’t be such a jack wagon to speak in as general terms as it looked.

Paladin145
02-17-2018, 07:59 AM
I was focused on the upwing wing, and crab angle.


Pilot didn’t fully decrab; the right (downwind) wing dropped as the gear “took out the crab” the hard way. The rotation on the pivot point caused the wing to drop. It’s hard for a pilot to input aileron to stop the wingtip drop caused this way, as the rotation about the downwind gear is sudden and concurrent with touchdown. You are being, to some degree, being “tossed” in your seat at the same time as the wingtip moves. This is how downwind tips get stuck.

Better to land with some crab on than overdo the decrab input and land in a drift with the nose pointed a bit downwind.

galaxy flyer
02-17-2018, 12:30 PM
I’ve done investigations on strikes.

GF

TheFly
02-17-2018, 01:48 PM
CRJ. Crab until just below 10’ RA, then kick the rudder over. The more rudder input you apply, the faster the advancing wing will produce lift. If you don’t use aileron correction, a wing strike could occur.

galaxy flyer
02-17-2018, 02:11 PM
Quick story on why “kick” is a bad word I don’t use.

Windy day going into Yakima in an empty C-5 which is a kite. 40* crosswind nearing the limits for conditions, IIRC about 28 knots of left crosswind component, 32.5* was the charted limit. Newish pilot flying, we had a discussion on crosswind techniques. He was ready and geared up. Nicely flown approach off the VOR, good weather except for winds. I’m in the right seat, watching, hands off the controls, feet resting on the pedals. He’s nicely stable and good air speed control going thru 50’, I call “20”, and my right pedal disappears under my foot. Oh boy! Nose swings thru the centerline, I grab my set of throttles and, say, “MY AIRPLANE”. As the thrust kicked in we were at the right hand edge of the runway and I remembering wondering if we’d touch. Off we went, thanks to GE and a light airplane.

Point being, just squeeze enough rudder to align the fuselage with the runway, think upwind aileron to hold the wings level, which will probably have set 2*-3* of bank into the wind. It’s poetry, not prose.

GF

Paladin145
02-17-2018, 03:49 PM
awesome. I wish my LCA explained it that way.

Quick story on why “kick” is a bad word I don’t use.

Windy day going into Yakima in an empty C-5 which is a kite. 40* crosswind nearing the limits for conditions, IIRC about 28 knots of left crosswind component, 32.5* was the charted limit. Newish pilot flying, we had a discussion on crosswind techniques. He was ready and geared up. Nicely flown approach off the VOR, good weather except for winds. I’m in the right seat, watching, hands off the controls, feet resting on the pedals. He’s nicely stable and good air speed control going thru 50’, I call “20”, and my right pedal disappears under my foot. Oh boy! Nose swings thru the centerline, I grab my set of throttles and, say, “MY AIRPLANE”. As the thrust kicked in we were at the right hand edge of the runway and I remembering wondering if we’d touch. Off we went, thanks to GE and a light airplane.

Point being, just squeeze enough rudder to align the fuselage with the runway, think upwind aileron to hold the wings level, which will probably have set 2*-3* of bank into the wind. It’s poetry, not prose.

GF

Paladin145
02-20-2018, 01:36 PM
This one lands crabbed, then straightens nose.
Is this correct technique for E145? Not sure of the wind speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHDSsSYSdU

galaxy flyer
02-21-2018, 06:54 PM
This one lands crabbed, then straightens nose.
Is this correct technique for E145? Not sure of the wind speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXHDSsSYSdU

If you look closely, the PF is decrabbing, as it touches down, wings level, in a diminishing crab angle. Could have decrabbed a bit more, but hard to say, not knowing the plane. Smoke comes off the mains nearly simultaneously, firm touch without the plane bouncing or rolling because of the decrabbing of the gear. Probably 20 knots, perhaps 25.

Can’t say what the Embraer manual says on crosswind techniques, but it looks reasonable.

Paladin145
02-22-2018, 09:53 AM
Here is a 9000 hour CRJ-200 pilot talking about the high roll rate.
Probably something they should address in training?

Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=483688cc)


CRJ200 no fan of crosswinds
By nugpot on Thursday, Apr 2nd 2015 12:53Z

I have about 9000 hours on those wonderful little jets. Crosswinds are a challenge due to a very strong yaw/roll couple (when kicking straight after crabbing in) plus a high roll-rate for a passenger aircraft due to the spoileron/aileron combination on a short wing. In gusty conditions, you can quickly overcorrect into a tip strike.



Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=483688cc)

galaxy flyer
02-22-2018, 05:10 PM
Any swept wing plane will have yaw-roll coupling, it’s a feature. The advancing wing is becoming “less swept” while the retreating wing is becoming “more swept”. Also, a crosswind becomes more normal to the wing on the upwind side and less on the downwind side. Picture yourself hovering over the plane and imagine what a left cross looks like compared to a direct headwind. The upwind wing has a flow nearly perpendicular to the leading edge while the downwind has the wind flowing nearly parallel to the leading edge. These two factors contribute to the yaw-roll coupling, but they are generic to all swept wing designs.

Can’t say about roll rate other than a deft touch and stay in sync with what the gust is doing. I tend to think many pilots are too aggressive in countering every gust and “row” at the ailerons. Fewer, but positive, roll inputs and give the plane time to react. One can throw loads of inputs, reverse them quickly and the plane can’t react that fast. I had an IP in -38s, LtCol Bucholz, he could throw the stick all around the cockpit so fast the plane barely moved—in formation, it did to show positive timely inputs were correct, not a flurry of pokes.

GF

Paladin145
02-22-2018, 05:47 PM
Thanks, GF. Good stuff.
I think they should do more crosswinds in the sim; gusts, if the sim is capable.


Any swept wing plane will have yaw-roll coupling, it’s a feature. The advancing wing is becoming “less swept” while the retreating wing is becoming “more swept”. Also, a crosswind becomes more normal to the wing on the upwind side and less on the downwind side. Picture yourself hovering over the plane and imagine what a left cross looks like compared to a direct headwind. The upwind wing has a flow nearly perpendicular to the leading edge while the downwind has the wind flowing nearly parallel to the leading edge. These two factors contribute to the yaw-roll coupling, but they are generic to all swept wing designs.

Can’t say about roll rate other than a deft touch and stay in sync with what the gust is doing. I tend to think many pilots are too aggressive in countering every gust and “row” at the ailerons. Fewer, but positive, roll inputs and give the plane time to react. One can throw loads of inputs, reverse them quickly and the plane can’t react that fast. I had an IP in -38s, LtCol Bucholz, he could throw the stick all around the cockpit so fast the plane barely moved—in formation, it did to show positive timely inputs were correct, not a flurry of pokes.

GF

galaxy flyer
02-22-2018, 06:00 PM
Thanks, GF. Good stuff.
I think they should do more crosswinds in the sim; gusts, if the sim is capable.pp

Because the Global had a series of wingtip strikes, it was a sim “emphasis item”. It’s tricky and as you exceed 20 knots of cross; you sometimes have to a combination of crabbed (decrab to around 5* crab angle) and wing low within 3*-5* of bank and opposite rudder.

PM an email and I’ll send a Flight Safety Foundation article on the subject.

GF

rickair7777
02-23-2018, 08:26 AM
Here is a 9000 hour CRJ-200 pilot talking about the high roll rate.
Probably something they should address in training?

Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=483688cc)


CRJ200 no fan of crosswinds
By nugpot on Thursday, Apr 2nd 2015 12:53Z

I have about 9000 hours on those wonderful little jets. Crosswinds are a challenge due to a very strong yaw/roll couple (when kicking straight after crabbing in) plus a high roll-rate for a passenger aircraft due to the spoileron/aileron combination on a short wing. In gusty conditions, you can quickly overcorrect into a tip strike.



Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=483688cc)

When we say "kick" it out, we don't really mean kick. Smooth inputs and fly the wing while you're doing it.

If you get a sudden gust in the flare you may need a sudden roll input, but a small input should do it... or buy you time for deeper correction.

galaxy flyer
02-23-2018, 09:42 AM
Funny thing about Global strikes, out of 13 or 14, only two involved crosswinds near the demonstrated crosswind component of 29 knots. Several involved winds of less than 10 knots. The “investigations” revealed very low speed at touchdown, hence high pitch angles (>10*, IIRC) and a little bit of ham-fisted roll inputs and/or high sink rate. With 35* of sweep, the tips get close to the pavement at high pitch angles.

GF

Paladin145
02-23-2018, 03:24 PM
Funny thing about Global strikes, out of 13 or 14, only two involved crosswinds near the demonstrated crosswind component of 29 knots. Several involved winds of less than 10 knots. The “investigations” revealed very low speed at touchdown, hence high pitch angles (>10*, IIRC) and a little bit of ham-fisted roll inputs and/or high sink rate. With 35* of sweep, the tips get close to the pavement at high pitch angles.

GF

This shows G V as example. at 5' pitch, wing tip clearance goes from 60 to 43 inches clearance.

Paladin145
02-23-2018, 03:30 PM
This shows G V as example. at 5' pitch, wing tip clearance goes from 60 to 43 inches clearance.

On one of my first CRJ-200 landings, I was a little off center line just before flare, but hesitant to use aileron that close to the runway. The LCA reminded me later that when pitched down 2.5 ' ( that you need in 200), your wingtips are even farther from runway. So get on the centerline BEFORE you start to flare.

Atlas Shrugged
02-24-2018, 06:21 AM
Lots of great advice here. This is an important topic as we are getting a lot of RJ folks to the 747, and I see crosswind landing issues frequently on the line.

I am not a check airman so, I find myself having to try to explain to new people how to land the "big" jet, and I want to be a correct as possible. Unfortunately, we have had several incidents lately that did not end well.

A 747 will strike a pod at 6 degrees of bank, but that is really a lot of bank. You will feel very uncomfortable if you land with 6 degrees.

One problem I see frequently is that people stop flying the jet after touchdown. The 747 has a big tail, and you must use downwind rudder to prevent the airplane from weather-vaning. This is particularly true of the LCF which has a 7 foot taller SP tail. You must apply aileron as necessary. How much is necessary? What ever it takes, up to and including, full control input to keep the wings level.

You can land a 747 in a crab, but I have always done it like Galaxy Flyer described.

Aileron and center line discipline are your friends with the larger jets. Speed control is critical. If you get slow, GO AROUND!

galaxy flyer
02-24-2018, 06:32 AM
Here’s a link to a FSF ALAR article on crosswinds.

https://flightsafety.org/files/alar_bn8-7-crosswind.pdf

GF

Mink
02-24-2018, 08:36 AM
https://www.batraining.com/elearning/freecourses/crosswind

Free course on Global Express crosswind techniques. First 14 slides are GLEX specifics from the AFM, but after that it gets into information that's applicable to any aircraft using the wings level crab technique.

galaxy flyer
02-24-2018, 12:43 PM
https://www.batraining.com/elearning/freecourses/crosswind

Free course on Global Express crosswind techniques. First 14 slides are GLEX specifics from the AFM, but after that it gets into information that's applicable to any aircraft using the wings level crab technique.

That’s the one we wrote! Vast improvement on the earlier one. Crosswind landings were a recurrent item plus lots of work in initial.

GF

Paladin145
02-25-2018, 02:32 AM
Atlas,

If RJ pilots are not prepared, I think I know why. No focus on this key item. Here is one manual I found online...

The ***** requires traditional control inputs during a crosswind
landing. The recommended crosswind landing technique is to
combine crab and sideslip.
On final approach, a crab angle should be established with the wings
level in order to maintain the aircraft on the desired course. When
initiating the flare at 10-15 feet above the runway
surface, apply rudder to align the aircraft with the runway centerline
while simultaneously applying opposite aileron to correct for sideways
drift. After touchdown, maintain runway centerline with rudder
steering and continue to apply aileron input into the wind consistent
with aircraft speed and wind velocity.
Use caution when operating in gusty conditions. A wingtip strike could
occur if excessive (more than 8º roll) aileron correction is applied.

There is no mention of the fast roll rate of the CRJ-200, and keeping the wings flat. If you have 27 kts of wind, you will need a good deal of wing low, and may get near the limit.

Below is what I found in the ASA interview prep book.


As a simple explanation using the question from above, the pilot will wait until crossing the threshold to push the right rudder to align the nose with the runway center-line, while adding a small amount of left aileron to keep the wings level. Maintain this until touchdown. The large amount of inertia of this large airplane will keep the aircraft tracking down the runway centerline for the short amount of time until touchdown. If the pilot makes the rudder input too early, the airplane will start drifting prior to touchdown. If the pilot makes the rudder input too late, the airplane will touchdown in a crab. Both errors in timing will make for a rough touchdown.

I think the ASA explanation is better at preventing wing low landings.






Lots of great advice here. This is an important topic as we are getting a lot of RJ folks to the 747, and I see crosswind landing issues frequently on the line.

I am not a check airman so, I find myself having to try to explain to new people how to land the "big" jet, and I want to be a correct as possible. Unfortunately, we have had several incidents lately that did not end well.

A 747 will strike a pod at 6 degrees of bank, but that is really a lot of bank. You will feel very uncomfortable if you land with 6 degrees.

One problem I see frequently is that people stop flying the jet after touchdown. The 747 has a big tail, and you must use downwind rudder to prevent the airplane from weather-vaning. This is particularly true of the LCF which has a 7 foot taller SP tail. You must apply aileron as necessary. How much is necessary? What ever it takes, up to and including, full control input to keep the wings level.

You can land a 747 in a crab, but I have always done it like Galaxy Flyer described.

Aileron and center line discipline are your friends with the larger jets. Speed control is critical. If you get slow, GO AROUND!

Paladin145
02-25-2018, 03:26 AM
2013: ASA: Incident: Atlantic Southeast CRJ2 at Charleston on Apr 5th 2013, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=4607231e)
2014: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Atlanta on Jul 16th 2014, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=477735ae)
2015: Air Wisconsin: Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=483688cc)
2017: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Roanoke on Jan 22nd 2017, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=4a3f5364)

In my sim, only did 12 knots crosswind. No gusts. ( not sure if sim can do that.)

No mention of :

- fast roll rate of CRJ-200, and possibility to overcorrect in gusts.
- how much bank is needed with 0' crab, and max crosswind. ( what is your margin for error ? )
- Amount of crab ' that is acceptable on main gear to protect the wingtips.

No ground school on this topic. At least several wing tip strikes should have been reviewed and studied.

Atlas Shrugged
02-25-2018, 06:25 AM
In my sim, only did 12 knots crosswind. No gusts. ( not sure if sim can do that.)

No mention of :

- fast roll rate of CRJ-200, and possibility to overcorrect in gusts.
- how much bank is needed with 0' crab, and max crosswind. ( what is your margin for error ? )
- Amount of crab ' that is acceptable on main gear to protect the wingtips.

No ground school on this topic. At least several wing tip strikes should have been reviewed and studied.

I have heard that we now have some extra landing training in the SIM for new hires. Atlas has always been a sink or swim type of outfit, and they got away with that because of where the pilots used to come from.

Those days have changed. I firmly believe that if a pilot has the aptitude and a good attitude, he can be trained. The question is how much money do you want to spend to train him? The military does it everyday.

We have pilots now who struggle to talk on the radios properly. They are not idiots, but clearly no one has taken the time to correct them in a constructive way and hold them accountable. But hey, the emperor wears no clothes...

galaxy flyer
02-25-2018, 07:33 AM
Three out of four of those strikes had less than 10 knots of crosswind component. MHT was challenging. This is very believable—strikes are mostly about poor training in crosswind landings (sims can do gusts and strong crosswinds, but it’s still 1s and 0s in the box) and, to large extent, poor training during line operations where the real learning occurs. The elimination of pre-IOE “bounce drill” in the plane was a bad idea. Spent 3 hours doing T&Gs in the 727 for new F/Os at EAL. Pretty interesting as a new engineer, too.

Captains will flame me here, but line captains need to constructively criticize bad techniques and explain good techniques and let F/Os learn. Those that can’t or won’t are doing aviation a disservice.

GF

Paladin145
02-25-2018, 12:24 PM
GF,

Yes, I noticed how low the wind was on those. I was surprised by that.

When I did IOE in 2002, in a DHC-8, they made sure you could fly the airplane. We weren't supposed to be at the level of a 1 year FO.

When I did IOE in 2017, the one LCA said he would sign me off only if if he didn't have to say a word about anything. Of course he was going to comment, he would have done this, or that, even though the approach was fine. He had 12,000 hours in the aircraft. It seems now after IOE you need to fly as a 1 year FO. It seems like the Captain role is to no longer assist FO's.

Three out of four of those strikes had less than 10 knots of crosswind component. MHT was challenging. This is very believable—strikes are mostly about poor training in crosswind landings (sims can do gusts and strong crosswinds, but it’s still 1s and 0s in the box) and, to large extent, poor training during line operations where the real learning occurs. The elimination of pre-IOE “bounce drill” in the plane was a bad idea. Spent 3 hours doing T&Gs in the 727 for new F/Os at EAL. Pretty interesting as a new engineer, too.

Captains will flame me here, but line captains need to constructively criticize bad techniques and explain good techniques and let F/Os learn. Those that can’t or won’t are doing aviation a disservice.

GF

rickair7777
02-25-2018, 03:58 PM
2013: ASA: Incident: Atlantic Southeast CRJ2 at Charleston on Apr 5th 2013, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=4607231e)
2014: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Atlanta on Jul 16th 2014, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=477735ae)
2015: Air Wisconsin: Incident: Wisconsin CRJ2 at Manchester on Mar 18th 2015, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=483688cc)
2017: Express Jet: Incident: Expressjet CRJ2 at Roanoke on Jan 22nd 2017, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=4a3f5364)

In my sim, only did 12 knots crosswind. No gusts. ( not sure if sim can do that.)

No mention of :

- fast roll rate of CRJ-200, and possibility to overcorrect in gusts.
- how much bank is needed with 0' crab, and max crosswind. ( what is your margin for error ? )
- Amount of crab ' that is acceptable on main gear to protect the wingtips.

No ground school on this topic. At least several wing tip strikes should have been reviewed and studied.

You can always find a few examples, that doesn't mean it's a problem. The 700 is far more notorious than the 200.

The 200 is very nimble and responsive, it only has a fast roll rate if you ask for it.

If you do it right, you don't need that much bank even at max xwind. The plane weighs over 20 tons, it has inertia... it does not instantly drift down wind at the full speed of the xwind component. If you plant a main as you decrab and roll in a little bank, that will solve most of your drift problem. If you float in ground effect, then yeah you're going to need more bank.

Paladin145
02-26-2018, 04:59 AM
Rickair,

Good points. It can do fine in crosswinds, if pilots are taught properly. Only one check airman told me " if you flare too much, crosswinds will eat you up in this airplane." He said to get it on the ground. Other LCA's insisted on wing low, with a soft landing.

I read that the roll rate is very fast for a PAX aircraft, but I can't find the roll rate written anywhere.


You can always find a few examples, that doesn't mean it's a problem. The 700 is far more notorious than the 200.

The 200 is very nimble and responsive, it only has a fast roll rate if you ask for it.

If you do it right, you don't need that much bank even at max xwind. The plane weighs over 20 tons, it has inertia... it does not instantly drift down wind at the full speed of the xwind component. If you plant a main as you decrab and roll in a little bank, that will solve most of your drift problem. If you float in ground effect, then yeah you're going to need more bank.

HuggyU2
02-26-2018, 05:44 PM
Even on aircraft designed to land in a crab, such as the T-38, most guys naturally gravitated to a decrab in the flare.

No, that is not the case, based on my experience.

I had an IP in -38s, LtCol Bucholz, he could throw the stick all around the cockpit so fast the plane barely moved—in formation,...GF
You can have the T-38 in fingertip, get the stick moving fore and aft, and actually bouncing off of the stops... and stay in position.

... line captains need to constructively criticize bad techniques and explain good techniques and let F/Os learn. Those that can’t or won’t are doing aviation a disservice.


Word.

JohnBurke
02-26-2018, 07:46 PM
technique is technique but I don’t know anyone who lands in the crab except by accident.


The 747 calls for landing crabbed.

There's a lot of mass to be kicking out, and while it can be done, the FCOM/AFM calls for landing crabbed. I've done it both ways, and combinations, in some very strong crosswinds and very gusty conditions.

Get some time in conventional gear airplanes where landing with any crab at all will eat your lunch for three days straight. You'll hear this advice all the time, and it isn't wrong, but what works in one aircraft isn't necessarily appropriate in others. Same for swept wing aircraft; the technique in one is not necessarily the technique in all.

Paladin145
03-04-2018, 04:08 AM
This one is in very gusty conditions.
Looks like the speed bled off, and the plane landed hard, and caught a wing tip.

I had one veteran CRJ pilot tell me that in some cases the auto throttle can't keep up in this type of condition ?

CAUGHT ON VIDEO: Jet makes rough landing at RDU during high winds (http://wncn.com/2018/03/02/caught-on-video-jet-makes-rough-landing-at-rdu-during-high-winds/amp/)

Paladin145
03-04-2018, 04:14 AM
This one is in very gusty conditions.
Looks like the speed bled off, and the plane landed hard, and caught a wing tip.

I had one veteran CRJ pilot tell me that in some cases the auto throttle can't keep up in this type of condition ?

CAUGHT ON VIDEO: Jet makes rough landing at RDU during high winds (http://wncn.com/2018/03/02/caught-on-video-jet-makes-rough-landing-at-rdu-during-high-winds/amp/)
On this CRJ9, there was no wind. appears to be really high pitch, high bank.

Incident: Mesa CRJ9 at McAllen on Sep 29th 2015, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=48d1e994)

rickair7777
03-04-2018, 07:18 AM
On this CRJ9, there was no wind. appears to be really high pitch, high bank.

Incident: Mesa CRJ9 at McAllen on Sep 29th 2015, wing tip strike on landing (http://avherald.com/h?article=48d1e994)

He either got a little shear/downdraft at the last moment or was using CRJ200 sight picture in a 900 and had to panic-flare to limit VS on impact. Actually the attitude on approach looked OK for a 900.

rickair7777
03-04-2018, 07:22 AM
Rickair,

Good points. It can do fine in crosswinds, if pilots are taught properly. Only one check airman told me " if you flare too much, crosswinds will eat you up in this airplane." He said to get it on the ground. Other LCA's insisted on wing low, with a soft landing.

I read that the roll rate is very fast for a PAX aircraft, but I can't find the roll rate written anywhere.

The 200 has a VERY low approach pitch sight picture, plus you flare later than in larger jets. You'll find you have to brief jumpseaters on that, or you'll scare the heck out of them. I was taught well from day one, would flare even later than most 200 pilots, and could consistently nail spot landings. They would be smooth too. Could never achieve quit the same consistency with larger jets, moment arms to large to be as predictable.

Paladin145
03-04-2018, 11:08 AM
The 200 has a VERY low approach pitch sight picture, plus you flare later than in larger jets. You'll find you have to brief jumpseaters on that, or you'll scare the heck out of them. I was taught well from day one, would flare even later than most 200 pilots, and could consistently nail spot landings. They would be smooth too. Could never achieve quit the same consistency with larger jets, moment arms to large to be as predictable.
That's impressive, if you can consistently land the CRJ-200.
Can I ask who trained you? My training was different depending on the LCA.
Some got worried if you flared too low, and said you are going to hit nose wheel.
Other's were fine with it. You have to flare quick if you flare at 10' . Quick, with just the correct amount of pitch. When jumpseating, I noticed 200 pilots go from -2.5 ' to about - 1' at around 20 feet. Then at 10 feet, from -1' to +1' pitch. I saw this on more than one observation flight. Of course, they were looking down the runway, and not consciously selecting a pitch.

JackStraw
03-04-2018, 05:56 PM
Nothing freaks me out more than the super low flare. There is no reason for it unless you’re trying to frighten the guys sitting around you. I’ve seen it on all sizes of aircraft from the 200 to the 74 and no one likes it at any level.

Having said that, no technique is the perfect way. My technique depends on the amount of crosswind component. Just do what works for you.

JackStraw
03-04-2018, 06:00 PM
This one is in very gusty conditions.
Looks like the speed bled off, and the plane landed hard, and caught a wing tip.

I had one veteran CRJ pilot tell me that in some cases the auto throttle can't keep up in this type of condition ?

CAUGHT ON VIDEO: Jet makes rough landing at RDU during high winds (http://wncn.com/2018/03/02/caught-on-video-jet-makes-rough-landing-at-rdu-during-high-winds/amp/)

No variant of the CRJ has an auto-throttle system. Maybe he meant the pilot couldn’t keep up. That was a horrendous landing.

rickair7777
03-05-2018, 07:08 AM
That's impressive, if you can consistently land the CRJ-200.
Can I ask who trained you? My training was different depending on the LCA.


As a newhire I flew a couple months (hard lines) with a guy who would make me land on the 5000 turboprop runway at PHL when we were light. Short field technique just means precision, no ducking under or dragging it in with a jet.

rickair7777
03-05-2018, 07:09 AM
No variant of the CRJ has an auto-throttle system. Maybe he meant the pilot couldn’t keep up. That was a horrendous landing.

There is a rare A/T option. May be an STC, not sure if it's a factory option.

galaxy flyer
03-05-2018, 08:30 AM
I’m pretty sure it is the Safe Flight system on the Challengers. An STC for sure, don’t know if approved for the CRJ-200. Works well enough on the 604/605, but not responsive enough in gusts.

GF

rickair7777
03-05-2018, 08:13 PM
I’m pretty sure it is the Safe Flight system on the Challengers. An STC for sure, don’t know if approved for the CRJ-200. Works well enough on the 604/605, but not responsive enough in gusts.

GF


There's definitely an option or STC for the 200, I know it's more common on 200's converted to bizjets. 200's have cables, 700/900 are FADEC, so that would be different technology, I'm not aware of an A/T option for the FADEC.

WhisperJet
03-08-2018, 09:52 AM
There's definitely an option or STC for the 200, I know it's more common on 200's converted to bizjets. 200's have cables, 700/900 are FADEC, so that would be different technology, I'm not aware of an A/T option for the FADEC.


I've been in the jumpseat and in the back of jets that fishtail like crazy after a Xwind landing (*think that Emirates A380 video.) What causes that? IN the jumpseat, looked like the guy had it nailed then next thing I know we're 30 feet Left then right of the CL.

joepilot
03-08-2018, 02:46 PM
The 747 calls for landing crabbed.

There's a lot of mass to be kicking out, and while it can be done, the FCOM/AFM calls for landing crabbed. I've done it both ways, and combinations, in some very strong crosswinds and very gusty conditions.

Get some time in conventional gear airplanes where landing with any crab at all will eat your lunch for three days straight. You'll hear this advice all the time, and it isn't wrong, but what works in one aircraft isn't necessarily appropriate in others. Same for swept wing aircraft; the technique in one is not necessarily the technique in all.

Importantly, landing crabbed does not necessarily mean touching down wings level. Crabbed is anything less than the airplane tracking straight down the centerline.

Many airplanes simply do not have the control authority to track straight down the centerline at max limit crosswind, or trying would cause a wingtip or pod to drag on the runway.

If you put in about half as much aileron and rudder as needed to track the centerline 50 feet, then the final rudder application in the flare is much easier to judge, and you have a head start on the needed aileron application to keep the upwind wing from raising when the gear pulls the airplane straight after touchdown.

Joe

1wife2airlines
03-08-2018, 07:50 PM
I've been in the jumpseat and in the back of jets that fishtail like crazy after a Xwind landing (*think that Emirates A380 video.) What causes that? IN the jumpseat, looked like the guy had it nailed then next thing I know we're 30 feet Left then right of the CL.

Was the fishtail before or after the nosewheel touched down? You have rudder applied in the flare and touchdown and have to center it as the nose comes down. Sometimes you miss a little. 30' seems excessive.