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View Full Version : Jump The Flow


PilotDude72
02-19-2018, 11:05 AM
Long time lurker, first time poster.

My question to all you high speed Envoy pilots that are worried about the flow is, whats stopping you from getting what the major's want in a few years at Envoy and applying outside of the flow? Seems to me like doing this and having the flow as a sort of insurance plan would give Envoy a distinct advantage over other regionals.

Am I mistaken to assume that you have to opportunity at Envoy to make yourself a very marketable applicant to a major within 3-4 years?


35Right
02-19-2018, 11:19 AM
I believe the consnsus thought is that AAG believes the flow is enough of an incentive for recruitment without needing to increase pay, except that the flow isnt working as promised....which means lower pay AND long time flow.

If the flow worked as intended, it would be an advantage. Thats just my understanding from reading these forums lately.

PilotDude72
02-19-2018, 12:29 PM
I agree, the pay could go up and match the industry, but the flow is a legitimate incentive regardless of the pay. Even if 5 pilots a month flow to AA thats a distinct advantage most other regionals can't offer.

I understand the frustration people experience when their expectations aren't met, but if you take a step back and try to look at the situation objectively it seems that any flow is an advantage above other regional employers.

More to the point of this thread, whats stopping an Envoy pilot from trying to jump the line and apply directly to AA once they have the PIC time?


35Right
02-19-2018, 01:21 PM
Nothing

(Filler)

Otterbox
02-19-2018, 01:29 PM
Long time lurker, first time poster.

My question to all you high speed Envoy pilots that are worried about the flow is, whats stopping you from getting what the major's want in a few years at Envoy and applying outside of the flow? Seems to me like doing this and having the flow as a sort of insurance plan would give Envoy a distinct advantage over other regionals.

Am I mistaken to assume that you have to opportunity at Envoy to make yourself a very marketable applicant to a major within 3-4 years?

Flow makes people complacent... applying OTS to the majors becomes more way difficult than taking the path of least resistance (flow) that gets folks there eventually...

TransWorld
02-19-2018, 02:16 PM
For 2017, AA hired 645.

Of those, 360 (56%) were flows (263 from Envoy, 52 from PSA, and 45 from PDT.) There were 225 (35%) Mil OTS and 60 (9%) Civ OTS.

So, very few slots were Civ OTS hires, which is were someone jumping the flow would be categorized.


Now, the current forecast for 2018 is to hire 920 (best info, although lots will disagree - reverified by the Schoolhouse a week ago). That is an increase of 275 MORE hires. Where will they come from? Unless flows change, not much there. Unless they can wrangle a higher percentage of Mil coming available, not much there.

A reasonable forecast would be a significant amount of those ADDITIONAL 275 slots will be from Civ OTS. That is a radical change from were it has been (only 60). It may approach the number of flow hires. And we have not even hit the peak retirements.

Again, some here will strongly disagree, saying hiring will stop because furloughs are around the corner despite massive retirements. Others will say there is some other magic pot of Mil OTS that are just waiting to be hired. But, this is the way I see it.

BIueSideUp
02-19-2018, 03:42 PM
Long time lurker, first time poster.

My question to all you high speed Envoy pilots that are worried about the flow is, whats stopping you from getting what the major's want in a few years at Envoy and applying outside of the flow? Seems to me like doing this and having the flow as a sort of insurance plan would give Envoy a distinct advantage over other regionals.

Am I mistaken to assume that you have to opportunity at Envoy to make yourself a very marketable applicant to a major within 3-4 years?

Youíre so right. We should be groveling in gratitude for this precious flow. If you want to call it an ďinsurance planĒ, itís about as useful as hurricane insurance in North Dakota. For anyone new to this game, thatís all the weight you should give it. 9 - 10 years flow is positively useless. Nobody has any idea what the industry will look like by then, and even then so, flow will likely not exist. Donít even start with the ďbut itís contractualĒ junk. We all know that ANYTHING can change. I canít believe you all believe that this is such a wonderful bargaining chip that youíre holding like itís the golden ticket or something. It wonít be long before this comes back to bite. Anyone reading this trying to make a decision - do whatís best for your quality of life and will achieve your goals. Envoy will do neither. If your goal is flight time, reserve isnít the place for you. If you wanted flow, well sorry to bust your bubble but thatís not such a hot item anymore.


By the way, donít look now but your mgmt tag is hanging out. Saw it from across the room.

PilotDude72
02-19-2018, 04:54 PM
So much saltiness, it's almost as if you enjoy it that way...

Anywho, I'm just a lowly RTP guy looking for some useful information on this website. After sifting through a big heaping pile of pilot BS for something of value to no avail, I decided to start this thread to see if anyone could quantify why they thought this flow deal was such a bust. Still waiting on that...

But hey man, thanks for bringing your opinion. I feel a lot more informed already.

Whiskey4
02-19-2018, 05:00 PM
Youíre so right. We should be groveling in gratitude for this precious flow. If you want to call it an ďinsurance planĒ, itís about as useful as hurricane insurance in North Dakota. For anyone new to this game, thatís all the weight you should give it. 9 - 10 years flow is positively useless. Nobody has any idea what the industry will look like by then, and even then so, flow will likely not exist. Donít even start with the ďbut itís contractualĒ junk. We all know that ANYTHING can change. I canít believe you all believe that this is such a wonderful bargaining chip that youíre holding like itís the golden ticket or something. It wonít be long before this comes back to bite. Anyone reading this trying to make a decision - do whatís best for your quality of life and will achieve your goals. Envoy will do neither. If your goal is flight time, reserve isnít the place for you. If you wanted flow, well sorry to bust your bubble but thatís not such a hot item anymore.


By the way, donít look now but your mgmt tag is hanging out. Saw it from across the room.

I think youíre forgetting one major advantage the flow provides Envoy pilots over other regionals...

Flow is the best attrition generator that any pilot could ever hope for. The best type of attrition is that happening at the very top. That is because everyone below the people leaving benefits.

This fact is, of course, the reason why every pilotís spoken (or unspoken...if you have manners) first thought about hearing some career ending event happen to another pilot is not, ďHow is his familyĒ or ďIs he going to be okay?Ē, but rather ďWhat is his seniority number?Ē Everyone wants to know if they are going to move up in seniority based QOL! Itís a natural reaction.

Anyways, flow at Envoy currently provides every pilot on property a fairly consistent 25 numbers of increased seniority status while on property. Even people not planning to flow gained 263 seniority spots without even factoring in outside attrition...which was a large gain for the very junior (an additional 100-150 seniority numbers), and a minimal extra gain for the senior.

I think people forget that many other regional pilots can only rely on random attrition from all over the seniority list. Envoy pilots look forward to steady, positive gains in seniority their entire time on the list...even if they elect not to flow. In my opinion, that is a serious benefit of flow even if you think the time to flow is unacceptable for your career goals.

I know that I have personally benefitted from 263 people leaving the top of the list this year. My bidding position in my status has improved dramatically, OT pickup for good turns is getting easier, etc. Those are tangible benefits that work for my family.

Now, if we can get pay increases and/or some positive workrule changes to pair with that...Iím all in!!

bigtime209
02-19-2018, 05:14 PM
So much saltiness, it's almost as if you enjoy it that way...

Anywho, I'm just a lowly RTP guy looking for some useful information on this website. After sifting through a big heaping pile of pilot BS for something of value to no avail, I decided to start this thread to see if anyone could quantify why they thought this flow deal was such a bust. Still waiting on that...

But hey man, thanks for bringing your opinion. I feel a lot more informed already.

Flow is definitely not a bust, but definitely not the rainbow and unicorns that the recruiting department would want you to believe- at least not for the guys hired today. The guys that got hired between 2015 and 2106 that will actually see a 5ish year flow, those guys hit the lottery. But for a guy hired today, the flow is a nice insurance policy and something that will keep attrition going off the top.

I think you’re forgetting one major advantage the flow provides Envoy pilots over other regionals...

Flow is the best attrition generator that any pilot could ever hope for. The best type of attrition is that happening at the very top. That is because everyone below the people leaving benefits.

This fact is, of course, the reason why every pilot’s spoken (or unspoken...if you have manners) first thought about hearing some career ending event happen to another pilot is not, “How is his family” or “Is he going to be okay?”, but rather “What is his seniority number?” Everyone wants to know if they are going to move up in seniority based QOL! It’s a natural reaction.

Anyways, flow at Envoy currently provides every pilot on property a fairly consistent 25 numbers of increased seniority status while on property. Even people not planning to flow gained 263 seniority spots without even factoring in outside attrition...which was a large gain for the very junior (an additional 100-150 seniority numbers), and a minimal extra gain for the senior.

I think people forget that many other regional pilots can only rely on random attrition from all over the seniority list. Envoy pilots look forward to steady, positive gains in seniority their entire time on the list...even if they elect not to flow. In my opinion, that is a serious benefit of flow even if you think the time to flow is unacceptable for your career goals.

I know that I have personally benefitted from 263 people leaving the top of the list this year. My bidding position in my status has improved dramatically, OT pickup for good turns is getting easier, etc. Those are tangible benefits that work for my family.

Now, if we can get pay increases and/or some positive workrule changes to pair with that...I’m all in!!

Very valid point.

Pedro4President
02-19-2018, 05:23 PM
I believe the consnsus thought is that AAG believes the flow is enough of an incentive for recruitment without needing to increase pay, except that the flow isnt working as promised....which means lower pay AND long time flow.

If the flow worked as intended, it would be an advantage. Thats just my understanding from reading these forums lately.

Apparently you weren't here before Fall of 16. We had maybe 5-20 per class. 5-6 year upgrades. 4 year reserve. No commuter hotels. No movement. Bases closed. They increased pay and now they have more new hires then they can handle. We ran out of FOs to upgrade. AA doesn't need to raise pay to attract NHs. An argument could be made that we need to raise pay to attract 1000 hour 121 pilots. But why raise pay across the board when you can raise short term bonuses? Once our massive NH classes get 1000 hours they won't need the HVA bonus.

Seaplane
02-20-2018, 03:01 AM
Another thread start just to discuss the same ole flow B.S. and blah blah blah. And blah.

ORDinary
02-20-2018, 03:16 AM
If the flow worked as intended, it would be an advantage.

The flow is working as intended. It was intended to get people in the door at envoy despite lower pay, and keep them from leaving.

Pedro4President
02-20-2018, 04:00 AM
The flow is working as intended. It was intended to get people in the door at envoy despite lower pay, and keep them from leaving.

See I think the last part holds more weight than the first part. If I had to be honest I would be much more aggressive about getting hired at anything but a regional. However since the flow is "relatively" close and I live in DFW with all my family I really want AA for the DFW base. I don't see myself leaving to go to Spirit or even Southwest if my ultimate goal is AA. If I didn't have the flow I would take any offer from an LCC or major. I think local DFW guys feel the same. Especially 4-6 year guys.

itsmytime
02-20-2018, 07:33 AM
Another thread start just to discuss the same ole flow B.S. and blah blah blah. And blah.

Exactly. And as much as people try to claim it's worthless, and whatnot, all mgmt has to do is hop on the forums and see how much it's discussed to realize it's value.

Knobcrk1
02-20-2018, 07:38 AM
Long time lurker, first time poster.

My question to all you high speed Envoy pilots that are worried about the flow is, whats stopping you from getting what the major's want in a few years at Envoy and applying outside of the flow? Seems to me like doing this and having the flow as a sort of insurance plan would give Envoy a distinct advantage over other regionals.

Am I mistaken to assume that you have to opportunity at Envoy to make yourself a very marketable applicant to a major within 3-4 years?

Go back to the recruiting office theyíre calling you. No more flow threads please itís getting so old.

Knobcrk1
02-20-2018, 07:40 AM
See I think the last part holds more weight than the first part. If I had to be honest I would be much more aggressive about getting hired at anything but a regional. However since the flow is "relatively" close and I live in DFW with all my family I really want AA for the DFW base. I don't see myself leaving to go to Spirit or even Southwest if my ultimate goal is AA. If I didn't have the flow I would take any offer from an LCC or major. I think local DFW guys feel the same. Especially 4-6 year guys.

Spirit has a base in DFW and pays AA320 rates now.

Knobcrk1
02-20-2018, 07:41 AM
Another thread start just to discuss the same ole flow B.S. and blah blah blah. And blah.

Exactly...

jshoneycutt
02-20-2018, 05:25 PM
Long time lurker, first time poster.

My question to all you high speed Envoy pilots that are worried about the flow is, whats stopping you from getting what the major's want in a few years at Envoy and applying outside of the flow? Seems to me like doing this and having the flow as a sort of insurance plan would give Envoy a distinct advantage over other regionals.

Am I mistaken to assume that you have to opportunity at Envoy to make yourself a very marketable applicant to a major within 3-4 years?

The frustration at Envoy is hearing that AA wants more Envoy pilots in their new-hire classes and Envoy is not giving them up. Plenty of arguments to be made for and against opening the flow valve to match the demand.

450knotOffice
02-21-2018, 12:51 AM
Spirit has a base in DFW and pays AA320 rates now.

DFW base, yes. AA rates? Not even close with their new TA.

rondonq1
02-21-2018, 05:34 AM
DFW base, yes. AA rates? Not even close with their new TA.

Only one problem my friend. Spirit rates below aa rates with new contract. But envoy rates mucho below SPirit. And you have to work with envoy for 10 years now or more for chance to get to AA.

Maybe it is better for you to go to spirit and apply to AA or other airline instead of abusive treatment at envoy for 10 years. You make more money at spirit at least.

450knotOffice
02-21-2018, 05:59 PM
Canít argue with that. However, I was simply addressing the comment I quoted.

fatman1683
02-25-2018, 01:40 PM
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as an Envoy pilot is it possible to apply to AA and get picked as one of those 9% Civ OTS? Or do they just roundfile every Envoy resume in favor of the flow?

MD-11Loader
02-25-2018, 02:41 PM
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as an Envoy pilot is it possible to apply to AA and get picked as one of those 9% Civ OTS? Or do they just roundfile every Envoy resume in favor of the flow?

Itís possible and it has happened.

bigtime209
02-25-2018, 02:58 PM
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as an Envoy pilot is it possible to apply to AA and get picked as one of those 9% Civ OTS? Or do they just roundfile every Envoy resume in favor of the flow?

Itís possible but you better have something spectacular on your resume to set you apart or excellent connections, just like the rest of the civ ots guys have. Checking the minority or female box is also an extremely helpful advantage.

AZPilotMike
02-26-2018, 06:36 AM
Itís possible but you better have something spectacular on your resume to set you apart or excellent connections, just like the rest of the civ ots guys have. Checking the minority or female box is also an extremely helpful advantage.
Well in this day and age, canít I just self identify as one of those groups and check the box? How could they deny it?

TransWorld
02-26-2018, 09:36 AM
Well in this day and age, canít I just self identify as one of those groups and check the box? How could they deny it?

I self identify as blind and over age 65. That helps me on the IRS forms. Will that help me double for flying?

Archy Meatpants
02-26-2018, 11:52 AM
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as an Envoy pilot is it possible to apply to AA and get picked as one of those 9% Civ OTS? Or do they just roundfile every Envoy resume in favor of the flow?

Requires two Olympic Gold Medals and extensive space shuttle time.

NoValueAviator
02-26-2018, 02:28 PM
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as an Envoy pilot is it possible to apply to AA and get picked as one of those 9% Civ OTS? Or do they just roundfile every Envoy resume in favor of the flow?

The ones I've heard of either weren't really civ (they had lots of military exp, just not the kind that would get them a seat at the table without some turbine multi as he presented it), or were a highly desirable underrepresented group -- and that guy may also have been former mil.

ENH017
02-26-2018, 02:41 PM
Requires two Olympic Gold Medals and extensive space shuttle time.

Does that shuttle time need to be PIC?

SilentLurker
02-26-2018, 04:42 PM
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as an Envoy pilot is it possible to apply to AA and get picked as one of those 9% Civ OTS? Or do they just roundfile every Envoy resume in favor of the flow?


Wait until all the military RTP/ Hilo guys get hired off the street outside the flow. Once sucked up to various mainline carriers, and that pool from ENY, PSA, TSA, etc., dries up, then regular ďCivĒ may also get blended into those hiring Pool.

Lots of opportunity still for Civ OTS. Just my opinion.

Berto0555
02-26-2018, 04:47 PM
I read somewhere that Piedmont's flow agreement differs from Envoy and PSA in that you are not required to flow when your time comes, ie timing isn't right and you want to wait a few months. Does Envoy really only give you one shot at flow, take it or leave it?

Sheg0theD
02-26-2018, 05:16 PM
I read somewhere that Piedmont's flow agreement differs from Envoy and PSA in that you are not required to flow when your time comes, ie timing isn't right and you want to wait a few months. Does Envoy really only give you one shot at flow, take it or leave it?



No you can pass and take next if you want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Whiskey4
02-26-2018, 05:17 PM
The ones I've heard of either weren't really civ (they had lots of military exp, just not the kind that would get them a seat at the table without some turbine multi as he presented it), or were a highly desirable underrepresented group -- and that guy may also have been former mil.

I know two. Both updated the app with great regularity. I know that one went to job fairs for years before making a decent connection with one of the recruiters. It definitely took some hustle (and a helping of luck).

TransWorld
02-26-2018, 05:28 PM
Does that shuttle time need to be PIC?

Not if they also walked on the moon under the Apollo program.

Battlinbear21
02-27-2018, 04:59 AM
Not if they also walked on the moon under the Apollo program.

What about ďpurchased Soyuz timeĒ I mean, Whatís itís been about 5 years since we started buying dry time in that thing? Another thing that can get you hired w zero pic time is your wife gets offered a position in a office and stipulates only if husband is offered pilot position. Done. That was a big fn slap in all our faces.

fatman1683
02-27-2018, 09:35 AM
So what sort of qualifications or positions can I pursue at Envoy to help myself stand out in the Civ OTS crowd? Do check airmen/training pilots get extra points than just a line pilot? Should keep instructing on the side and try for a DPE qual or something?

bigtime209
02-27-2018, 09:41 AM
So what sort of qualifications or positions can I pursue at Envoy to help myself stand out in the Civ OTS crowd? Do check airmen/training pilots get extra points than just a line pilot? Should keep instructing on the side and try for a DPE qual or something?

Check Airman, volunteering in your local community, and being relentless in hitting as many job fairs as you possibly can.

NoValueAviator
02-27-2018, 02:07 PM
What is the magic of job fairs?

Do they mistake you for an Air Force guy there or something?

pitchattitude
02-27-2018, 02:25 PM
What is the magic of job fairs?

Do they mistake you for an Air Force guy there or something?

Itís a foot in the door. A face with an application. Indicates you are willing to go above and beyond (even if it is just a time and money thing).

Depends on the company and which job fair whether or not there is any value or how much value there is. From what I understand AA did not even look at resumes at WIA. SWA was actually reviewing applications, going over them and helping people make changes that would improve the chance of their application getting pulled. Know several guys subsequently hired as a result.

griff312
02-27-2018, 07:30 PM
What about ďpurchased Soyuz timeĒ I mean, Whatís itís been about 5 years since we started buying dry time in that thing? Another thing that can get you hired w zero pic time is your wife gets offered a position in a office and stipulates only if husband is offered pilot position. Done. That was a big fn slap in all our faces.

Wow, what's the back story of this wife / husband scheme!?!?

Otterbox
02-28-2018, 09:04 AM
Wow, what's the back story of this wife / husband scheme!?!?

WO Pilot recruiter(s) with ambition...husband wife both on the recruitment team-one got picked up and brought the other along for the ride. Pretty savvy on their part. That particular WO took it pretty poorly... VP of flight OPS and other management were pretty ****ed AA hired the pilot outside of the flow and took two recruiters while they were trying to expand.

I wouldnít say itís abnormal though. I know a couple of cases where AA pilot recruitment offered applicants interviews because their spouses were on property.

BigZ
02-28-2018, 09:33 AM
I wouldnít say itís abnormal though. I know a couple of cases where AA pilot recruitment offered applicants interviews because their spouses were on property.

Not limited to AA either, pretty normal practice.

Skip0927
02-28-2018, 10:57 AM
I have damn near every box checked and the feedback I got was your best chance for off the street hire is to come from another mainline. Go get a job at Delta and then update your app.

True civilian thru n thru.

NoValueAviator
02-28-2018, 04:18 PM
Not limited to AA either, pretty normal practice.

Lol, if I ever move to Dallas I'm totally making my wife get a job in AA HR.

Does the spouse have to be flight dept too?

BigZ
02-28-2018, 05:10 PM
Lol, if I ever move to Dallas I'm totally making my wife get a job in AA HR.

Does the spouse have to be flight dept too?

According to my wife (works for OAL), HR works best for what it's worth.
Some companies do place high value on close relatives with the company (aka "legacy reference") though

3EngineTaxi
03-01-2018, 08:55 AM
Should keep instructing on the side and try for a DPE qual or something?
Just be aware, flying for hire outside the company (including flight instructing on the side) has historically been banned by the company.

3EngineTaxi
03-01-2018, 08:57 AM
According to my wife (works for OAL), HR works best for what it's worth.
Some companies do place high value on close relatives with the company (aka "legacy reference") though
Is there any business value in hiring children of company employees? Or do they just like to do those folks a favor?

BigZ
03-01-2018, 09:11 AM
Is there any business value in hiring children of company employees? Or do they just like to do those folks a favor?

I guess the idea is the people are more likely to stick around

highfarfast
03-01-2018, 09:20 AM
Just be aware, flying for hire outside the company (including flight instructing on the side) has historically been banned by the company.

FWI, it's not just 'historically' or via policy, it's banned via FM1 which makes it an FAA violation. I do know MANY guys picking up work on the side without issue but you should know the boundaries you are pushing if you're going to do it.

Virga show
03-01-2018, 09:32 AM
FWI, it's not just 'historically' or via policy, it's banned via FM1 which makes it an FAA violation. I do know MANY guys picking up work on the side without issue but you should know the boundaries you are pushing if you're going to do it.

So if you wear a backpack with your uniform itís a FAA violation since in FM1 it says you canít do it.

AZPilotMike
03-01-2018, 09:59 AM
So if you wear a backpack with your uniform itís a FAA violation since in FM1 it says you canít do it.
Yeah I agree, just because it is in the FM1 doesnít make it an FAA violation. As far as I know the FAA only cares that you are not exceeding hours.

Virga show
03-01-2018, 10:07 AM
Yeah I agree, just because it is in the FM1 doesnít make it an FAA violation. As far as I know the FAA only cares that you are not exceeding hours.

This is correct everything in FM1 is not a FAA violation