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View Full Version : Upgrade Times?


midlifeflysis
02-20-2018, 08:30 AM
Hey all -- I was curious as to what the latest upgrade times are for those joining as a new FO with no previous 121 experience. Looked at a couple of older threads but we know that this always in flux.

Any comparisons to Envoy or Endeavor upgrade times? I know historically it's been longer than some other regionals, but is the time decreasing at all?

Any info would be appreciated!


stfoley23
02-20-2018, 08:34 AM
Just went to a recruiting event in Phoenix for the Cadet program and the upgrade times are still 2.5 - 3 years. Might drop a little in the future as hiring starts ramping up but RAH seems to have more captains that stay for an extended time than other airlines

TheWeatherman
02-20-2018, 09:15 AM
Industry changes so fast that chasing upgrade times should be one of the bottom things on your list when choosing a Regional. Upgrade times today won't look anything like upgrade times 2 or 3 years from now.


Random Task
02-23-2018, 11:31 AM
Junior award in the latest vacancies went to a Feb 15 hire

KCaviator
02-23-2018, 11:34 AM
54 CA vacancies system wide. Expect upgrade times to drop to 2.5 years and additional flying/aircraft to come online.

Random Task
02-24-2018, 06:55 AM
54 CA vacancies system wide. Expect upgrade times to drop to 2.5 years and additional flying/aircraft to come online.

Don't confused vacancies with ugprades. Those are vacancies that current captains can bid on. We've been having ~50 vacancies but usually half of those are upgrades.

TurbineTime
02-24-2018, 08:56 AM
Don't confused vacancies with ugprades. Those are vacancies that current captains can bid on. We've been having ~50 vacancies but usually half of those are upgrades.



We havenít had a ~50 captain vacancy in a long time, probably not since the Republic/Shuttle merger. I think the largest most recent vacancy had 36. While agree that this will not equal out to 54 true upgrades, I think it will significantly effect the upgrade time here.


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knewyork
02-24-2018, 10:17 AM
Don't confused vacancies with ugprades. Those are vacancies that current captains can bid on. We've been having ~50 vacancies but usually half of those are upgrades.

Unless we shrink there are usually backfill awards filled by FOs.

1704LIFE
02-25-2018, 01:54 PM
RAH is where careers go to finish, not start. Many lifers, not bad, just the reality.

4V14T0R
02-25-2018, 02:06 PM
RAH is where careers go to finish, not start. Many lifers, not bad, just the reality.



Really no more than anywhere else.


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1704LIFE
02-25-2018, 02:21 PM
And it really is about QOL anyways. To some folks it means money, to some commute, itís always different.

At the end of the day itís our job, not our life.

midlifeflysis
02-25-2018, 08:35 PM
Thanks all -- great feedback. I plan on submitting an application to RAH so this info is very helpful. Keep it coming if you have any other thoughts, upgrade times or not....

knewyork
02-25-2018, 08:39 PM
Thanks all -- great feedback. I plan on submitting an application to RAH so this info is very helpful. Keep it coming if you have any other thoughts, upgrade times or not....

The CA vacancy bid results will come out around March 9th so weíll see how far the upgrade reaches. Of course, it doesnít mean much for a new hire now since a lot can change.

4V14T0R
03-07-2018, 06:37 AM
Down to 2 years 7 months for the upgrade award. August 2015 DOH. 51 upgrades (thatís a record during my time here, for sure).


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4V14T0R
03-07-2018, 06:38 AM
Deleted. Double Post.

knewyork
03-07-2018, 10:09 AM
Down to 2 years 7 months for the upgrade award. August 2015 DOH. 51 upgrades (thatís a record during my time here, for sure).


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And everyone gave me a funny look when I told them it was gonna be under 3 years. It was inevitable.

4V14T0R
03-07-2018, 12:37 PM
And everyone gave me a funny look when I told them it was gonna be under 3 years. It was inevitable.



After last months award, absolutely. The drop in upgrade times last month was a huge surprise for me. In the last 2 months it has dropped 10 months.


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knewyork
03-07-2018, 02:28 PM
After last months award, absolutely. The drop in upgrade times last month was a huge surprise for me. In the last 2 months it has dropped 10 months.


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Yeah I definitely didnít know how long itíd be when I first came here but after 2 years of the same attrition ahead of me, something have had to have gone wrong for it to be over 3 years.

flying2018
03-08-2018, 05:59 AM
So the plan is to have 2.5/3 year upgrades for the foreseeable future?

4V14T0R
03-08-2018, 06:18 AM
So the plan is to have 2.5/3 year upgrades for the foreseeable future?



I wouldnít necessarily call it a plan, but it seems like itíll stay in that range. Weíve had some pretty large vacancy bids the last couple of months that have brought it down.

We are supposed to see 7-10% growth over the next 2 years according to our esteemed leader so that may drive it down further.

Just like anything in the industry, it is a dynamic situation. It depends on attrition and hiring.


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TheWeatherman
03-08-2018, 08:02 AM
So the plan is to have 2.5/3 year upgrades for the foreseeable future?
I don't see how it can't keep coming down with the pilot shortage and some of the lifers at RAH retiring in the next couple years.

Upgrade times these days should be the last thing on the list when picking a Regional because they are going to be short no matter where you go.

ORD170
03-09-2018, 03:50 PM
Republic has a lot of lifers. i Think most of the top 600 will stay, unless they get a dream job offer. Most arenít trying to leave. When I left republic 14 year captains were on reserve in ORD. Those guys love republic and are mostly happy. Upgrade will probably settle around 2 years, which is probably about right for a new 121 captain.

4V14T0R
03-09-2018, 04:25 PM
Republic has a lot of lifers. i Think most of the top 600 will stay, unless they get a dream job offer. Most arenít trying to leave. When I left republic 14 year captains were on reserve in ORD. Those guys love republic and are mostly happy. Upgrade will probably settle around 2 years, which is probably about right for a new 121 captain.



I think 600 is very much on the high side. ORD is sort of a one off and has many factors contributing to it being so senior itís more than just a lifer ďproblemĒ. I also donít think they have anymore lifers than any other airline.

misterpretzel
03-10-2018, 11:33 PM
Do captain and FO seniorities regarding bases look similar?

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4V14T0R
03-11-2018, 05:38 AM
Do captain and FO seniorities regarding bases look similar?

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Iím not sure I understand your question.


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misterpretzel
03-11-2018, 01:38 PM
Iím not sure I understand your question.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkMy bad. Are the junior or senior bases for FOs also junior/senior for captains, or are they different?

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Flightcap
03-11-2018, 06:40 PM
My bad. Are the junior or senior bases for FOs also junior/senior for captains, or are they different?

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There are slight differences. CMH, for example, is a junior FO base but a somewhat senior CA base. CA seniority in CMH has been coming down so it's starting to even out.

Are there particular bases you're interested in?

misterpretzel
03-11-2018, 09:20 PM
Not really. I've been lurking for a year now, and I was just curious. I'm at 0 TT (starting in the summer!) so it'll probably be another 5 years before my question is actually relevant to my life. And who the hell knows what'll be different then... part of the fun I guess.

Flightcap
03-11-2018, 10:16 PM
Kudos to you for getting informed. Just don't let it bother you too much right now. You have it right when you say that everything will be different by the time you are interviewing.

dash8driver
03-12-2018, 05:29 AM
Spent 9 years in the right seat between two regionals. Man, how times have changed. Iím happy for you guys.

midlifeflysis
03-13-2018, 06:45 PM
Thanks guys for the info -- I will keep this thread going over the next couple of months. Curious to see if upgrade times will be coming down to the 2-2.5 year mark. That would make RAH very attractive overall for hiring.

misterpretzel
03-13-2018, 08:14 PM
Since we're here, what is the most junior captain base? my semi-informed outsider guess is ewr

Random Task
03-13-2018, 11:25 PM
EWR LGA and DCA are all pretty junior on the captain side

blindfayth
05-07-2018, 10:22 PM
EWR LGA and DCA are all pretty junior on the captain side

How long does it currently take to hold CMH on the captain side?

Random Task
05-09-2018, 05:07 PM
Latest vacancy awards came out today and for the 3rd month in a row we are sitting at 2 yrs 7 mos. This is good, upgrade time has really coke down and hopefully continues to-do so.

Junior CMH captain is a 3/2015 hire, so about 3 years. Junior lineholder captain is around 11/2012. Expect to sit reserve a while.

Geardownflaps30
05-13-2018, 09:28 PM
Latest vacancy awards came out today and for the 3rd month in a row we are sitting at 2 yrs 7 mos. This is good, upgrade time has really coke down and hopefully continues to-do so.

Junior CMH captain is a 3/2015 hire, so about 3 years. Junior lineholder captain is around 11/2012. Expect to sit reserve a while.

Junior line holding Capt for May was 01/2014 in PIT...

Random Task
05-14-2018, 11:54 AM
Junior line holding Capt for May was 01/2014 in PIT...

I'm referring to CMH obviously

blindfayth
05-14-2018, 05:33 PM
Latest vacancy awards came out today and for the 3rd month in a row we are sitting at 2 yrs 7 mos. This is good, upgrade time has really coke down and hopefully continues to-do so.

Junior CMH captain is a 3/2015 hire, so about 3 years. Junior lineholder captain is around 11/2012. Expect to sit reserve a while.

Jesus. It would take 6 years to hold a line as a captain in CMH?
So if you want to upgrade relatively quickly at republic, one would be looking at a base of LGA, DCA, or EWR? Yuck.

TheWeatherman
05-14-2018, 05:39 PM
Jesus. It would take 6 years to hold a line as a captain in CMH?
So if you want to upgrade relatively quickly at republic, one would be looking at a base of LGA, DCA, or EWR? Yuck.
As with most Regionals, holding their most popular bases as Captain is a lot harder than FO considering you don't have people moving up opening up space like on the FO side, just the people moving out. So you get a lot more stagnation at the more senior bases. I know everybody at Envoy goes to LGA and Skywest have some senior bases you'll never get into as a CA.

Geardownflaps30
05-15-2018, 07:38 AM
I'm referring to CMH obviously

Iím referring to company wide, obviously.

🙃

ORD170
05-15-2018, 08:42 AM
Thanks guys for the info -- I will keep this thread going over the next couple of months. Curious to see if upgrade times will be coming down to the 2-2.5 year mark. That would make RAH very attractive overall for hiring.

I doubt upgrades will not drop below 2 years without growth. Pretty sure attrition is higher on the FO side, and the company wants to keep captains around.

Random Task
05-15-2018, 10:18 AM
The most recent award went to a 2 yr 5 mo FO. 12/15 hire.

DragonFlyer14
07-25-2018, 05:34 PM
What is the DOH of the most junior DCA captain?

814Pilot
07-25-2018, 05:40 PM
I doubt upgrades will not drop below 2 years without growth. Pretty sure attrition is higher on the FO side, and the company wants to keep captains around.


We were told today their goal is 500-600 pilots trained by the end of the year. My class is 52 people. They also told us dont be surprised if our upgrades are under 2 years

Arliss
07-25-2018, 07:39 PM
How about even lower for those with previous 121?

Jungle Jim
07-26-2018, 03:42 AM
What is the DOH of the most junior DCA captain?

April 2015

How about even lower for those with previous 121?

No. Still have to wait for your number to come up. If you want special dispensation, go to Envoy.

njd1
07-26-2018, 01:47 PM
We were told today their goal is 500-600 pilots trained by the end of the year. My class is 52 people. They also told us dont be surprised if our upgrades are under 2 years

That's consistent with what our class was told though our instructor kind of shook his head and said "I hope upgrade doesn't go below 2 years...as you really do need at least two winter seasons to fully appreciate the complexities of being a CA". Ain't that the truth.

Gravity88x
07-26-2018, 05:34 PM
That's consistent with what our class was told though our instructor kind of shook his head and said "I hope upgrade doesn't go below 2 years...as you really do need at least two winter seasons to fully appreciate the complexities of being a CA". Ain't that the truth.

The wisdom of Servando

KCaviator
07-27-2018, 07:36 AM
That's consistent with what our class was told though our instructor kind of shook his head and said "I hope upgrade doesn't go below 2 years...as you really do need at least two winter seasons to fully appreciate the complexities of being a CA". Ain't that the truth.

The whole "I-hope-upgrades-don't-drop-because-lack-of-experience" must be a Republic thing. There's a ton of lifers here that seem to be extremely bitter that upgrades are 2.5 years and dropping. Multiple other airlines are upgrading right at 1,000 121 and no one seems to have a problem. I think some of these guys can't let go of the past and they don't want to see younger guys upgrading in half the time they did.

CptGSXR
07-27-2018, 08:54 AM
The whole "I-hope-upgrades-don't-drop-because-lack-of-experience" must be a Republic thing. There's a ton of lifers here that seem to be extremely bitter that upgrades are 2.5 years and dropping. Multiple other airlines are upgrading right at 1,000 121 and no one seems to have a problem. I think some of these guys can't let go of the past and they don't want to see younger guys upgrading in half the time they did.

Those guys are lifers that will never leave the regional level, NOT SAYING itís their fault. But when you have 20+ years and 20000TPIC the majors wonít hire you.

Things have changed so drastically in just a few short years where you once PAID for training and then signed a contract keeping you there, now you get paid huge bonus (not sure what the going rate is now) you sign no contract and the company pays you to get your ATP reqs. Pay was less than $20 less than a decade ago and now itís $50 to start out. These guys have waited the better part of their life for a call to the Big Leauges and they know it will never come. And again, itís not their fault between the age 65 Rule and 9/11 and the Recession.

All that being said, itís not right for them to be upset, but it is understandable. If the Big Three get their way with Career Programs through training and the regionals direct to hire, all the FOs now will understand this all too well. Someone hired behind you with zero experience wanting to learn to fly will get to the majors faster than you, a person on property now.

glassnpowder98
07-27-2018, 01:45 PM
The whole "I-hope-upgrades-don't-drop-because-lack-of-experience" must be a Republic thing. There's a ton of lifers here that seem to be extremely bitter that upgrades are 2.5 years and dropping. Multiple other airlines are upgrading right at 1,000 121 and no one seems to have a problem. I think some of these guys can't let go of the past and they don't want to see younger guys upgrading in half the time they did.

I do hope it continues to drop to keep making Republic a more attractive place to be since growth typically increases QOL for everyone- as long as we grow within proper staffing levels. Would I rather see 170ís flown at mainline? Of course, but this is the S-sandwich given to us so we might as well make it through this part of our careers the best we can.

With that said, if upgrade drops real low I hope pilots come here with the mindset of preparing to become a captain. When upgrade was 4-7 years a lot of guys just sat in the right seat twiddling their thumbs waiting for their number to finally come up and struggled when it was time to upgrade. Aviation is all about timing and luck, so coming from someone who has been here a while Iím not bitter that people have it better than I did. Having your number called for upgrade is the easy part, actually being prepared to pass the training at 1000 hours of 121 takes some effort, paying attention to what your captains do, and thinking like a decision maker from day one.

njd1
07-27-2018, 05:53 PM
With that said, if upgrade drops real low I hope pilots come here with the mindset of preparing to become a captain. When upgrade was 4-7 years a lot of guys just sat in the right seat twiddling their thumbs waiting for their number to finally come up and struggled when it was time to upgrade. Aviation is all about timing and luck, so coming from someone who has been here a while I’m not bitter that people have it better than I did. Having your number called for upgrade is the easy part, actually being prepared to pass the training at 1000 hours of 121 takes some effort, paying attention to what your captains do, and thinking like a decision maker from day one.

I just arrived on property. One of the more vocal instructors who was doing an upgrade class at the time came into our class to tell us that the washout rate was almost 50% for the most recent upgrade class. In his opinion the root cause was that the FOs got too comfortable in the right seat and failed to take a more active role in the process of flying the airplane. Meaning, they always deferred to the CA and thus were ill-prepared to serve as CA.

Toward that end he encouraged us to consider ourselves "captains in training" and to take an active role in flying the airplane from day 1. Arrive at the aircraft and the CA isn't there yet? Go through the can, write up any squawks, talk to maintenance to remedy, get the thing fueled/catered, etc., plug in the clearance, etc. etc. In other words, fly it as if you were the only guy there.

I'll be happy if I upgrade around 2 years on property. Not sure I'd care to upgrade before that.

glassnpowder98
07-28-2018, 06:59 AM
Njd1 welcome aboard. That was exactly what I was told as a new hire- CA in training. If you take that seriously you have a lot better chance of being successful. The fail rate is pretty amazing as well since you have almost two months from when you receive your CA award and show up for training. Plenty of time to get reacquainted with the logbook, release, and ask some questions if youíve been sitting on your hands the last two years. However, youíre still going to lack basic CA decision making skills if you havenít been paying attention to that aspect. When I went through upgrade we were told decision making was a big reason for failures. Basically, make a decision, reevaluate and change it if needed, but show CA authority and make a decision.

ItnStln
07-28-2018, 10:48 AM
Those guys are lifers that will never leave the regional level, NOT SAYING itís their fault. But when you have 20+ years and 20000TPIC the majors wonít hire you.
Why wonít they?

mto7464
07-28-2018, 12:45 PM
What happens if you fail the upgrade?

When I was FO years ago for a 135 operation I did all the preflight stuff except weight and balacne so the idea of just sitting there would be foreign to me. If guys are failing that's just lazy.

CptGSXR
07-28-2018, 01:28 PM
Why wonít they?

Good question, from what I have heard it's because they feel pilots reach a point where they become untrainable. (personally disagree but wasn't asked) for example, recruiters like to see a recent upgrade or type. It's said that sitting on the same plane more than 5 yrs without a training event is a flag saying you might not be the best candidate for training.

Also, many of them aren't willing to start over at the bottom. After gaining 20 yrs seniority, life is good living in base. So there is that too, however my point still remains that they shouldn't be bitter, just that I get why they are.

glassnpowder98
07-28-2018, 08:56 PM
What happens if you fail the upgrade?

You go back to being an FO and after a certain amount of time (canít remember exactly) you can bid for CA again. If you donít make it after a second failure you will be let go.

njd1
07-29-2018, 05:58 AM
You go back to being an FO and after a certain amount of time (can’t remember exactly) you can bid for CA again. If you don’t make it after a second failure you will be let go.

True, and one of the many reasons I came to Republic instead of PSA. PSA is forcing upgrades right now, and there are guys that have been on property ~18 months being pushed into the left seat...or else. That seems wrong to me on many levels.

Geardownflaps30
07-30-2018, 03:58 AM
You go back to being an FO and after a certain amount of time (canít remember exactly) you can bid for CA again. If you donít make it after a second failure you will be let go.

Itís usually a year before they let you try a second time.

ItnStln
07-30-2018, 12:20 PM
Good question, from what I have heard it's because they feel pilots reach a point where they become untrainable. (personally disagree but wasn't asked) for example, recruiters like to see a recent upgrade or type. It's said that sitting on the same plane more than 5 yrs without a training event is a flag saying you might not be the best candidate for training.

Also, many of them aren't willing to start over at the bottom. After gaining 20 yrs seniority, life is good living in base. So there is that too, however my point still remains that they shouldn't be bitter, just that I get why they are.
Thanks for the explanation! Isnít that age discrimination?

Goose Lives
07-30-2018, 01:17 PM
Thanks for the explanation! Isnít that age discrimination?

They find another reason to cite if they have to, but that's why people's resumes don't get pulled for interviews unless the majors actually want them. The response of not getting a job is usually carefully crafted in a "thanks but no thanks" kind of way that won't get them in trouble.

ItnStln
07-30-2018, 03:45 PM
They find another reason to cite if they have to, but that's why people's resumes don't get pulled for interviews unless the majors actually want them. The response of not getting a job is usually carefully crafted in a "thanks but no thanks" kind of way that won't get them in trouble.
I guess itís asking too much to know why you werenít hired. In my current line of work our ďthanks but no thanksĒ emails say ďWe have other candidates who more closely meet our requirements. Your experience and skills may better align with another position, so continue your search with us.Ē

Goose Lives
08-02-2018, 04:45 PM
I guess itís asking too much to know why you werenít hired. In my current line of work our ďthanks but no thanksĒ emails say ďWe have other candidates who more closely meet our requirements. Your experience and skills may better align with another position, so continue your search with us.Ē

Yeah, unfortunately, that's the industry world we live in.

Longhornmaniac8
09-20-2018, 08:09 PM
Is there any additional info where upgrade times are at presently and where, if at all, they're forecasted to fall to? The airline profile says 2 years 7 months, but not sure if that's still accurate.

I'm hoping if I were to come on property in the next 2 months that I would have the ability to upgrade in 1.5-2.5 years.

Does that seem reasonable at this point?

Viking6
09-20-2018, 08:15 PM
Is there any additional info where upgrade times are at presently and where, if at all, they're forecasted to fall to? The airline profile says 2 years 7 months, but not sure if that's still accurate.

I'm hoping if I were to come on property in the next 2 months that I would have the ability to upgrade in 1.5-2.5 years.

Does that seem reasonable at this point?

Plan on 2.5 years, but it could it 1.5 years. You would still need 1000 of 121 hours.

Longhornmaniac8
09-28-2018, 01:03 PM
Plan on 2.5 years, but it could it 1.5 years. You would still need 1000 of 121 hours.

Thanks! That sounds pretty good! In terms of flying 1000 hours, obviously the first year is shortened up a bit with training.

Is it pretty normal for people, once on the line, to be flying roughly 75 hours a month (x 12 months = 900 hours/year)?

What about flying while on reserve? Obviously this varies a lot, but I've heard horror stories (if you're looking to fly and build time) of reserve pilots at other regionals only flying 10-30 hours a month? Is that also prevalent at YX, or is reserve utilization better because the staffing is appropriate?

greendotplus10
09-28-2018, 01:44 PM
I put this on another thread, but it belongs here too. Currently this is the relative base seniority for captains, and the span of the bottom 10 dates of hire.

EWR: 12/15 to 9/15
LGA: 12/15 to 6/15
PIT: 7/15 to 6/14
DCA: 4/15 to 10/14
CMH: 3/15 to 9/14
MIA: 3/15 to 3/13
PHL: 12/14 to 9/13
IND: 10/14 to 1/14
MCI: 5/14 to 3/11
IAH: 11/13 to 3/07
ORD: 11/13 to 6/07

Upgrade at YX is being driven by seniority rather than having the required flight experience (1,000 SIC 121 and 2,500 TT). There's no forced upgrades, so those that don't wish to be based in the most junior captain bases can wait for something better to open up. But, the wait to get into those last few bases on the list might just take too long.

On reserve expect 50 flight hours per month. Line holders average about 80, but you can pick up overtime if you choose and fly very close to 100 hours. The limit over the previous 365 days is 1,000 hours (part 117).

05Duramax
09-28-2018, 06:26 PM
Curious what the historical context is for ORD being most senior.? My top base picks are all on the bottom of that list. Any chance it will change in ORD in the next few years (how bout not any chance but a likely chance?).

greendotplus10
09-28-2018, 07:10 PM
Curious what the historical context is for ORD being most senior.? My top base picks are all on the bottom of that list. Any chance it will change in ORD in the next few years (how bout not any chance but a likely chance?).

Welcome to the airlines, where the chances of stuff happening is usually somewhere in between 'not any chance' and a 'likely chance'.

I heard that ORD is liked by commuters because you can commute in from almost anywhere. I'm not sure if it has any advantage in this regard compared to other YX domiciles, especially when it comes to congestion, and weather delays.

Not sure how senior ORD was on the captain side when the current captains upgraded, but the upgrade time was several years not that long ago. After waiting that long, and then perhaps even longer to hold ORD, and even longer to be able to hold a line, they simply don't want to give up the seniority. I don't blame them.

The company has been shrinking ORD, and because the captains didn't want to leave, they took reserve. I also heard that IAH was opened in part to get some captains to transfer there. It looks like that worked because the seniority lists are very similar.

TheWeatherman
09-29-2018, 07:06 AM
Curious what the historical context is for ORD being most senior.? My top base picks are all on the bottom of that list. Any chance it will change in ORD in the next few years (how bout not any chance but a likely chance?).
A few factors make ORD senior for Captains. One is Republic bought Midwest Express some years back. A lot of those pilots were MKE based and naturally moved to ORD when Republic closed MKE. Second, a lot of DEN based pilots moved to ORD when Republic closed DEN. There are a few Captains there that aren't going anywhere until mandatory retirement age.


A couple things that could improve seniority for Captains in ORD.


1. Republic buys TSA. That deal is dead in the water.
2. Republic opens DEN back up. United has no interest in having Republic open a base there again.

MrFriendly7
10-05-2018, 12:44 PM
Its 2.5 yrs right now and dropping.



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