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View Full Version : Jumpseat Poll (Vote here)


Al Czervik
02-21-2018, 06:49 AM
Want to be heard? Send soundoffs and vote here:

(If it doesnít load just sign in to APA and search ďJumpseat pollĒ)

https://www.alliedpilots.org/News/ID/5856


A330FoodCritic
02-21-2018, 07:04 AM
Thanks for the link, just voted for current.

Just noticed, LGA Poll, well I voted anyway.

Al Czervik
02-21-2018, 07:14 AM
Thanks for the link, just voted for current.

Just noticed, LGA Poll, well I voted anyway.

Anyone can vote.

Looks like Westbrook was not being totally honest:

There has been much discussion about the Flight Deck Jumpseat. In June of 2015 the APA Board of Directors tasked American Airlines to create a hybrid version of listing for the jumpseat. The Hybrid System for reservation of the Integrated Voice Response (IVR) System for the Jumpseat would be as follows:

7 days and 4 hours from the day of travel (the 4 hours was an AA IT issue) anyone could reserve a jumpseat. At 3 days prior to the flight, the jumpseat would be awarded to the most senior pilot who reserved the jumpseat during the initial first 4 days and 4 hours. Inside of three days prior to the flight, if no pilot had signed up for the jumpseat, it would be awarded to the first pilot requesting the reservation.

American's IT Department has had some difficulties creating what was originally required by the the APA Board of Directors, but recently APA and AA have begun discussing developement of the hybrid system. Considering much time has elapsed since the original direction was given, we wanted to poll the LGA Domicile to see what type of Jumpseat Reservation System you would prefer. Please take the time to complete this simple 1 question poll.


Arado 234
02-21-2018, 08:11 AM
Anyone can vote.

Looks like Westbrook was not being totally honest:

There has been much discussion about the Flight Deck Jumpseat. In June of 2015 the APA Board of Directors tasked American Airlines to create a hybrid version of listing for the jumpseat. The Hybrid System for reservation of the Integrated Voice Response (IVR) System for the Jumpseat would be as follows:

7 days and 4 hours from the day of travel (the 4 hours was an AA IT issue) anyone could reserve a jumpseat. At 3 days prior to the flight, the jumpseat would be awarded to the most senior pilot who reserved the jumpseat during the initial first 4 days and 4 hours. Inside of three days prior to the flight, if no pilot had signed up for the jumpseat, it would be awarded to the first pilot requesting the reservation.

American's IT Department has had some difficulties creating what was originally required by the the APA Board of Directors, but recently APA and AA have begun discussing developement of the hybrid system. Considering much time has elapsed since the original direction was given, we wanted to poll the LGA Domicile to see what type of Jumpseat Reservation System you would prefer. Please take the time to complete this simple 1 question poll.

Too simple. We need to take the last four digits of the pilot's SSN divide it by the sum of the seniority number square root multiplied by the annual $$$ contribution. That sum is being multiplied by the numbers of Crandall pictures above the bed and jumpsuit-styled pj's in your primary home. That's your jumpseat priority number, but only until three days ahead of the flight. Then you have to reverse the process by using the average hours a day wearing your hat while flying and divide the above amount of pictures and pj's from your second home. If you don't have one, well ... you're screwed! But no worries, you'll be senior one day, son!

jcountry
02-21-2018, 01:50 PM
Anyone can vote.

Looks like Westbrook was not being totally honest:

There has been much discussion about the Flight Deck Jumpseat. In June of 2015 the APA Board of Directors tasked American Airlines to create a hybrid version of listing for the jumpseat. The Hybrid System for reservation of the Integrated Voice Response (IVR) System for the Jumpseat would be as follows:

7 days and 4 hours from the day of travel (the 4 hours was an AA IT issue) anyone could reserve a jumpseat. At 3 days prior to the flight, the jumpseat would be awarded to the most senior pilot who reserved the jumpseat during the initial first 4 days and 4 hours. Inside of three days prior to the flight, if no pilot had signed up for the jumpseat, it would be awarded to the first pilot requesting the reservation.

American's IT Department has had some difficulties creating what was originally required by the the APA Board of Directors, but recently APA and AA have begun discussing developement of the hybrid system. Considering much time has elapsed since the original direction was given, we wanted to poll the LGA Domicile to see what type of Jumpseat Reservation System you would prefer. Please take the time to complete this simple 1 question poll.

Technically, he wasn't lying.

He just mentioned stuff about no 'debate' going on at the moment....

The stuff you posted is exactly what both my sources described.

TW knows he was being misleading, and he knows why.... But if you parse his words, maybe he wasn't actually lying..... He sure couldn't have been trying harder to throw people off the trail though.

I'm damned sure voting and sending soundoffs!

Al Czervik
02-21-2018, 02:20 PM
Technically, he wasn't lying.

He just mentioned stuff about no 'debate' going on at the moment....

The stuff you posted is exactly what both my sources described.

TW knows he was being misleading, and he knows why.... But if you parse his words, maybe he wasn't actually lying..... He sure couldn't have been trying harder to throw people off the trail though.

I'm damned sure voting and sending soundoffs!

Exactly why I said ďnot totally honest.Ē Iíd rather have a guy tell me he didnít agree with me and he was going to support the opposite side of the argument. His response (posted on our board) was cowardly and conniving.

jcountry
02-21-2018, 03:40 PM
Exactly why I said ďnot totally honest.Ē Iíd rather have a guy tell me he didnít agree with me and he was going to support the opposite side of the argument. His response (posted on our board) was cowardly and conniving.

It sure was.

He is a real tool.

He goes out of his way to screw anyone who is not in his little cartel.

Others do the same, Iím sure-but good ol TW is very bold and obvious about it.

Name User
02-21-2018, 04:33 PM
I'm not on FB but can someone post this on the 3rd listers site? I'm betting most of us/them want the current system. Would get a lot of traction.

Also, what an outrageous use of company and union resources.

PRS Guitars
02-21-2018, 05:05 PM
LAX put out a survey as well...

jcountry
02-21-2018, 05:08 PM
I'm not on FB but can someone post this on the 3rd listers site? I'm betting most of us/them want the current system. Would get a lot of traction.

Also, what an outrageous use of company and union resources.

There definitely should be a vote.

Just the other day, I was on the Jumpseat and a very senior LAA Captain was telling me how much he loves the current system. (It wasnít TW.)

I have a feeling that the current system would win big. I have yet to come across anyone who doesnít like it better.

But as with all things, our union is more about screwing certain groups than doing anything positive for everyone.

A330FoodCritic
02-21-2018, 06:17 PM
LAX put out a survey as well...

Why didn't you provide a link like Al did?

A330FoodCritic
02-21-2018, 06:18 PM
https://www.alliedpilots.org/News/ID/5858/LAX-Jumpseat-Reservation-Poll

PRS Guitars
02-21-2018, 07:25 PM
Why didn't you provide a link like Al did?

Though about it, but figured it wouldn’t work (his link didn’t work for me).

Edit:

Just saw this DCA poll

https://www.alliedpilots.org/Domiciles/DCA/Poll

A330FoodCritic
02-21-2018, 07:32 PM
Yeah, guess I am a weirdo, have 6 computer screens, already logged into APA, so his link worked, no worries.

A330FoodCritic
02-21-2018, 07:35 PM
Your DCA link worked also, just voted again.

Clint
02-22-2018, 02:21 AM
Why didn't you provide a link like Al did?
The DCA poll can be taken be anybody. The LAX poll can only be accessed by LAX folks.

mainlineAF
02-22-2018, 04:26 AM
There definitely should be a vote.



Just the other day, I was on the Jumpseat and a very senior LAA Captain was telling me how much he loves the current system. (It wasnít TW.)



I have a feeling that the current system would win big. I have yet to come across anyone who doesnít like it better.



But as with all things, our union is more about screwing certain groups than doing anything positive for everyone.



Idk. The natives outnumber US by almost 2:1. Many of them will support seniority and then the guys on the fence may pick seniority bc itís what theyíre used to. Change is scary.

I think these polls wonít turn out well for FCFS jumpseat.

Btw Iím in favor of FCFS. So much better.

OVBIII
02-22-2018, 04:59 AM
Sound off sent as well.

jcountry
02-22-2018, 05:07 AM
Idk. The natives outnumber US by almost 2:1. Many of them will support seniority and then the guys on the fence may pick seniority bc itís what theyíre used to. Change is scary.

I think these polls wonít turn out well for FCFS jumpseat.

Btw Iím in favor of FCFS. So much better.

Maybe the vote could be limited to those who actually commute.

IMO, non-commuters donít have a say in this. They are not affected in any meaningful way.

jcountry
02-22-2018, 05:08 AM
Idk. The natives outnumber US by almost 2:1. Many of them will support seniority and then the guys on the fence may pick seniority bc itís what theyíre used to. Change is scary.

I think these polls wonít turn out well for FCFS jumpseat.

Btw Iím in favor of FCFS. So much better.

Sometimes itís about the squeaky wheel.

Look at how much the LOS guys got (though their number is smalle.)

Not saying that the LOS situation didnít need to be fixed. Just saying that their numbers are tiny in the grand scheme

mainlineAF
02-22-2018, 05:42 AM
Sometimes itís about the squeaky wheel.



Look at how much the LOS guys got (though their number is smalle.)



Not saying that the LOS situation didnít need to be fixed. Just saying that their numbers are tiny in the grand scheme



Yea true. But there wasnít any polls put out about LOS and it was the right thing to do.

If we say letís take a vote thereís a good chance seniority could win out.

Hubble15
02-22-2018, 06:03 AM
Not a commuter, and I've only used the IVR JS system a few times. Interested to learn the rationale behind preferring FCFS to the hybrid system? I think the old-school pure seniority system is BS. Pilots losing commutes at the gate due to a seniority # duel is bad for pilots and the company.

I personally like FCFS, but then I'm pretty junior. It seems reasonable to move to a hybrid system where a senior guy who is flying when the system opens still has a chance to get the JS, but slackers who couldn't be bothered can't bump us at the gate. What am I missing?

PRS Guitars
02-22-2018, 07:07 AM
Not a commuter, and I've only used the IVR JS system a few times. Interested to learn the rationale behind preferring FCFS to the hybrid system? I think the old-school pure seniority system is BS. Pilots losing commutes at the gate due to a seniority # duel is bad for pilots and the company.

I personally like FCFS, but then I'm pretty junior. It seems reasonable to move to a hybrid system where a senior guy who is flying when the system opens still has a chance to get the JS, but slackers who couldn't be bothered can't bump us at the gate. What am I missing?

My main problem is the proposed timeline. 4 days of seniority with the last 3 as FCFS (if the seat is still open). The first four days (days 7-4 out) are essentially an auction. Your going to have guys waiting till day 4 to book, so for planning purposes you have no stability (knowledge that the seat is yours) until day 3. Letís face it, unless youíre the number 1 guy in your base, you just never know. You will leave for a 4 day trip not knowing if youíll get the seat coming home.

With the current system, I can look at my trip and if I donít get the seat, I can start trying to trade for a better trip 7 days out, or book an earlier seat, etc. also, I know that Iím going to get home BEFORE I even leave on the trip.

If we go Hybrid, Iíd propose opening up the reservation period to 8 days out. First 2 days are seniority based, next 6 are FCFS if the seat is open after the first 2. Still gives considers seniority but also allows for planning.

Arado 234
02-22-2018, 07:11 AM
Not a commuter, and I've only used the IVR JS system a few times. Interested to learn the rationale behind preferring FCFS to the hybrid system? I think the old-school pure seniority system is BS. Pilots losing commutes at the gate due to a seniority # duel is bad for pilots and the company.

I personally like FCFS, but then I'm pretty junior. It seems reasonable to move to a hybrid system where a senior guy who is flying when the system opens still has a chance to get the JS, but slackers who couldn't be bothered can't bump us at the gate. What am I missing?

What are you missing? The attitude of "you'll be senior one day, son". Probably from guys that got screwed back then with the B scale!

I am probably the most negative guy out here when it comes to the IVR system/FCFS vs seniority. I *had* to double commute for four years and now I am *enjoying* a single flight a day to and from my home airport. It is my choice (I won't bore you with my personal sobering story whether it's really a choice) and yes, commuting sucks.

A brief history about the IVR/FCFS system: That was probably the only thing that LUS and LAWA could agree on (besides the fact that they HATED each other), it was fair to almost everyone (except procrastinators and in some situations guys on reserve) even the jumpseater was weight protected aka the company in the worst case had to bump a revenue passenger.

It took some real man of genius aka TW to completely f up this system. Everybody backed this system when it was first introduced to LAA, but TW made a stink about it. It got so bad in the APA henhouse that the company told APA that they would keep the current system, but the js weight protection was no more!

Another brilliant move by APA was the elimination of the last leg trip swap. Let's say you were on your last leg back to base, but you'd miss your commute home because you get in too late. If there was a pilot rated in the same ac and seat, (s)he could fly the last leg of the sequence for you. You still got paid, and the commuting pilot flew for free. Obviously, you both had to agree.

Some real geniuses from a different f world shook their heads in dismay and anger because they didn't see the sense of flying for free. Now it is gone. Whether something makes sense to you or not doesn't matter anymore, APA will make decisions for you.

There had been discussions about change of union. My personal view is to vote those idiots out. A new union with the same db is not gonna change anything.

Arado 234
02-22-2018, 07:15 AM
My main problem is the proposed timeline. 4 days of seniority with the last 3 as FCFS (if the seat is still open). The first four days (days 7-4 out) are essentially an auction. Your going to have guys waiting till day 4 to book, so for planning purposes you have no stability (knowledge that the seat is yours) until day 3. Let’s face it, unless you’re the number 1 guy in your base, you just never know. You will leave for a 4 day trip not knowing if you’ll get the seat coming home.

With the current system, I can look at my trip and if I don’t get the seat, I can start trying to trade for a better trip 7 days out, or book an earlier seat, etc. also, I know that I’m going to get home BEFORE I even leave on the trip.

If we go Hybrid, I’d propose opening up the reservation period to 8 days out. First 2 days are seniority based, next 6 are FCFS if the seat is open after the first 2. Still gives considers seniority but also allows for planning.

But it won't give those senior guys with the "I've been here 500 years" attitude the satisfaction just to walk up to the gate and claim THEIR jumpseat that they so rightfully deserve.

That's what it's all about!

nimslow
02-22-2018, 07:20 AM
Maybe the vote could be limited to those who actually commute.

IMO, non-commuters donít have a say in this. They are not affected in any meaningful way.

Iím LAA, a commuter, and junior in my bid status, I prefer the current FCFS system. Having said that, the bold part isnít going to help the cause. The Jumpseat isnít just for commuters.

Vma214
02-22-2018, 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by jcountry View Post
ďMaybe the vote could be limited to those who actually commute.
IMO, non-commuters donít have a say in this. They are not affected in any meaningful way.lĒ

Iím LAA, a commuter, and junior in my bid status, I prefer the current FCFS system. Having said that, the bold part isnít going to help the cause. The Jumpseat isnít just for commuters.

EXACTLY. LAA and senior. I like the Hybrid system suggested that goes Seniority for the first two days then fcfs, which honors seniority for at least a couple of days but then gives everyone else time to plan. But, the ďnon-commuters donít have a say in thisĒ line is BS. Your choice (yeah, thatís right, NOBODY has a gun to your head) to commute is not my problem. The JS is for EVERY PILOT!

EMBFlyer
02-22-2018, 11:26 AM
Maybe the vote could be limited to those who actually commute.

IMO, non-commuters donít have a say in this. They are not affected in any meaningful way.

I'm not a commuter anymore and I'm a huge proponent of the current system (with many improvements...hybrid not being one of them).

This is not a smart road to take.

Mover
02-22-2018, 04:17 PM
Your choice (yeah, thatís right, NOBODY has a gun to your head) to commute is not my problem. The JS is for EVERY PILOT!

No one has a gun to your head, but the threat of divorce might feel like one.

The "Commuting is a choice" is an idiotic statement. You don't know that person's life situation. Are you going to pay for a new hire to pack up and move to NYC on year 1 pay while on probation when that person already lives in DFW?

The current system is fair. It should stay in place. Nobody has a gun to your head to go on vacation. Your inability to use a basic phone system and plane ahead is not my problem. The JS is for EVERY PILOT, not just senior pilots.

Name User
02-23-2018, 05:11 AM
The JS is just another seat on the airplane like seat 14B is. It's in the company interest to give the best opportunity for guys to get to work without last minute pop up commute issues.

Unless you're #1 you would have to put in a bunch of phone calls in order to secure at least one jump seat. It just seems like a solution in search of a problem.

What does kinda upset me about the nonrev system is that the Express guys are riding around as D2's with us. At Delta they are below mainline employees. I see both arguments but the company has chosen to use our pass benefits as a way to attract people to work at the Express carriers in lieu of paying them more.

mainlineAF
02-23-2018, 06:49 AM
Originally Posted by jcountry View Post

ďMaybe the vote could be limited to those who actually commute.

IMO, non-commuters donít have a say in this. They are not affected in any meaningful way.lĒ







EXACTLY. LAA and senior. I like the Hybrid system suggested that goes Seniority for the first two days then fcfs, which honors seniority for at least a couple of days but then gives everyone else time to plan. But, the ďnon-commuters donít have a say in thisĒ line is BS. Your choice (yeah, thatís right, NOBODY has a gun to your head) to commute is not my problem. The JS is for EVERY PILOT!



Holy tool. Unbelievable.

Arado 234
02-23-2018, 02:19 PM
Holy tool. Unbelievable.

Are you really that surprised? Do you wonder why we have Project Wingman? Ever heard the old (but no so distant) stories how pilots were treated at the old LAA, and how they treated each other? The same people that have a "not my problem" attitude are the ones complaining being labelled "SkyNazi".

As it once said in KZ Buchenwald "Jedem das Seine".

Vma214
02-23-2018, 04:59 PM
Are you really that surprised? Do you wonder why we have Project Wingman? Ever heard the old (but no so distant) stories how pilots were treated at the old LAA, and how they treated each other? The same people that have a "not my problem" attitude are the ones complaining being labelled "SkyNazi".

As it once said in KZ Buchenwald "Jedem das Seine".

Obviously NEITHER of you guys can read for comprehension. While your ďpersonal problemsĒ concerning your need to commute are certainly not my problem. (I have enough of my own, to include when I was junior, on probation and the wife split with the kids to the other side of the country and we had ZERO access to the jumpseat. Gee, how did I ever survive:confused:)

But I think Seniority should apply for a couple of days and THEN fcfs for four or five days so that the junior guys (along with guys going on vacation) can plan on their commute. And spare me the Sky Nazi bull$hit. Iíve been hearing that since you were probably in diapers.

Vma214
02-23-2018, 05:13 PM
No one has a gun to your head, but the threat of divorce might feel like one.

The "Commuting is a choice" is an idiotic statement. You don't know that person's life situation. Are you going to pay for a new hire to pack up and move to NYC on year 1 pay while on probation when that person already lives in DFW?

The current system is fair. It should stay in place. Nobody has a gun to your head to go on vacation. Your inability to use a basic phone system and plane ahead is not my problem. The JS is for EVERY PILOT, not just senior pilots.

Oh for crying out loud. READ AGAIN the last line I wrote. We agree 100%...The jump seat is for EVERYONE. Show me where I said anything about the JS being for senior people only. Man you guys are a bunch of cry babies.

PRS Guitars
02-23-2018, 07:34 PM
Oh for crying out loud. READ AGAIN the last line I wrote. We agree 100%...The jump seat is for EVERYONE. Show me where I said anything about the JS being for senior people only. Man you guys are a bunch of cry babies.

I hesitate to even respond, and I agree completely that the JS is for everyone, not just commuters (though I prefer the current system to a hybrid). With that said, your approach is a bit abrasive when you YELL! With caps and explanation marks. Thatís what caused the other replies.

jcountry
02-23-2018, 09:42 PM
Yea true. But there wasnít any polls put out about LOS and it was the right thing to do.

If we say letís take a vote thereís a good chance seniority could win out.

LOS was the right thing, but all the stupid ass caveats Carey agreed to were not.

He even has the gall to brag about that pay raise-which APA got for us.... Right.

Vma214
02-24-2018, 03:38 AM
I hesitate to even respond, and I agree completely that the JS is for everyone, not just commuters (though I prefer the current system to a hybrid). With that said, your approach is a bit abrasive when you YELL! With caps and explanation marks. Thatís what caused the other replies.

Thanks. Point taken, although I wasnít trying to yell as much as to merely emphasize the word. Personally what I find ďabrasiveĒ is when people start throwing around words like ďstupidĒ, ďidioticĒ, ďtoolĒ to describe what they think about someone elseís opinion...to which we are all entitled.

jcountry
02-24-2018, 05:23 AM
Thanks. Point taken, although I wasnít trying to yell as much as to merely emphasize the word. Personally what I find ďabrasiveĒ is when people start throwing around words like ďstupidĒ, ďidioticĒ, ďtoolĒ to describe what they think about someone elseís opinion...to which we are all entitled.

Quit being such a stupid, idiotic, abrasive tool!

(Sorry, couldnít resist.)

collegedropout9
02-24-2018, 07:19 AM
For me, commuting is a choice and my belief is that the Jumpseat is for everyone no matter if they are heading out for fun or work. To have seniority taken out of the equation is difficult. I spent a lot of years working under a seniority system waiting my turn, and now I have new hires bragging to me about FCFS. AA needs to have a system that balances the needs of all. CD9

Vma214
02-24-2018, 07:24 AM
Quit being such a stupid, idiotic, abrasive tool!

(Sorry, couldnít resist.)

Thatís ok. Donít worry. Youíll be senior one day too sonny...because thatís the way weíve always done it.

(Sorry, neither could I :D )

Al Czervik
02-24-2018, 10:28 AM
I spent a lot of years working under a seniority system waiting my turn, and now I have new hires bragging to me about FCFS. AA needs to have a system that balances the needs of all. CD9

Thatís the funny thing. Iíve talked to very senior guys that like the fcfs. So it clearly meets the needs of the senior guys as well. What Iím hearing is ďI want it my way because thatís what I want.Ē Very little merit to that argument.

mainlineAF
02-24-2018, 01:19 PM
For me, commuting is a choice and my belief is that the Jumpseat is for everyone no matter if they are heading out for fun or work. To have seniority taken out of the equation is difficult. I spent a lot of years working under a seniority system waiting my turn, and now I have new hires bragging to me about FCFS. AA needs to have a system that balances the needs of all. CD9



Are you seniority #1?

If not, good luck being able to plan your commute. Oh wait, you prob live in base and only jumpseat once every other year.

Girl bai [emoji1480]

Name User
02-24-2018, 05:11 PM
Thanks. Point taken, although I wasn’t trying to yell as much as to merely emphasize the word. Personally what I find “abrasive” is when people start throwing around words like “stupid”, “idiotic”, “tool” to describe what they think about someone else’s opinion...to which we are all entitled.

FWIW I agreed with your post in that the JS is for everyone not just commuters.

But your use of bolded, underlined caps screamed "DFW flip phone old dude" which is probably why they jumped on you. IMO.

FWIW I disagree with the base as a whole on politics but the DFW guys I fly with are really nice, not what I was expecting. It does however have a lot of "this is the way we do it" which needs to open up to change.

Mover
02-25-2018, 07:42 AM
Oh for crying out loud. READ AGAIN the last line I wrote. We agree 100%...The jump seat is for EVERYONE. Show me where I said anything about the JS being for senior people only. Man you guys are a bunch of cry babies.

The only people crying are the super senior guys who are used to eating their own and just want the joy of bumping junior guys so they can go on vacation. The system works fine as is. No need to change it. Stop crying.

EMBFlyer
02-25-2018, 09:12 AM
The only people crying are the super senior guys who are used to eating their own and just want the joy of bumping junior guys so they can go on vacation.

Or the guys who have just gotten senior and are ****ed that they can't bump anybody now. <-------Actual excuse for someone advocating for a seniority-based jumpseat.

PRS Guitars
02-28-2018, 04:58 PM
Wasnít a scientific poll, so take it through a filter, but the DCA results are out.

471 polled

88% for current system
10% for hybrid
2% for pure seniority

UPTme
02-28-2018, 08:07 PM
In other news, the 2% that voted for straight seniority also retire in 3 years, and are dying to give up work rules in exchange for increased pay rates and pension reinstatement.

They also live in base.

GFYs

Smoke Toliet
03-01-2018, 09:50 AM
Wasnít a scientific poll, so take it through a filter, but the DCA results are out.

471 polled

88% for current system
10% for hybrid
2% for pure seniority

When I read CnR you would of thought the opposite. Iím encouraged with these results...and proves that the CnR crowd are from outer space.

EMBFlyer
03-01-2018, 10:58 AM
When I read CnR you would of thought the opposite. Iím encouraged with these results...and proves that the CnR crowd are from outer space.

Space called and said, "Nah, we don't want 'em either."

A330FoodCritic
03-01-2018, 03:37 PM
Wasnít a scientific poll, so take it through a filter, but the DCA results are out.

471 polled

88% for current system
10% for hybrid
2% for pure seniority

If APA tries to ever change the system, the officers need to be shot, twice!

A330FoodCritic
03-01-2018, 04:11 PM
https://www.alliedpilots.org/Domiciles/PHL/Poll

Philly poll.

Frip
03-01-2018, 07:24 PM
Maybe the vote could be limited to those who actually commute.

IMO, non-commuters donít have a say in this. They are not affected in any meaningful way.


I hope that that was sarcasm.

The JS is not a commuter seat.

The travel priveleges are priveleges, for everyone, equally.

Non Commuters travel also, and their reasons for doing so are every bit as important to them as living wherever is to the commuter.

Frip
03-01-2018, 07:33 PM
All the hyperbole and finger pointing and name calling directed at the "senior" aside, the main reason for a hybrid system is to eliminate rhe "fastest fingers" from the equation and allow everyone who may be flying or sleeping or watching their kid's game or whatever at the first second the window opens a chance to plan also.

Three or four days of FCFS is plenty, lots of folks trade trips inside of eight, and even inside of three.

Al Czervik
03-02-2018, 04:41 AM
All the hyperbole and finger pointing and name calling directed at the "senior" aside, the main reason for a hybrid system is to eliminate rhe "fastest fingers" from the equation and allow everyone who may be flying or sleeping or watching their kid's game or whatever at the first second the window opens a chance to plan also.

Three or four days of FCFS is plenty, lots of folks trade trips inside of eight, and even inside of three.

I am a big advocate of our current system. I have commuted under the IVR system. It is the biggest QOL advantage in the world. If (a big if) a hybrid is adapted, 5 days needs to be FCFS. Pilots flying 4 day trips should be able to count on their ride home before starting that trip.

PRS Guitars
03-02-2018, 05:05 AM
All the hyperbole and finger pointing and name calling directed at the "senior" aside, the main reason for a hybrid system is to eliminate rhe "fastest fingers" from the equation and allow everyone who may be flying or sleeping or watching their kid's game or whatever at the first second the window opens a chance to plan also.

Three or four days of FCFS is plenty, lots of folks trade trips inside of eight, and even inside of three.

If eliminating “fastest fingers” from the equation is your main issue, then 1 or 2 days of seniority followed by 6 or 7 days of FCFS would do that. The shorter the FCFS period the more stress induced to all pilots (except the top guy per base). It’s why I’m an advocate of the current system.

Name User
03-02-2018, 07:28 AM
How do you implement a seniority system? Would people call in and "bid" on seats and then have them awarded? Or whomever calls in during that time frame gets the seat until someone senior calls above them?

Then the guy that gets booted no longer has a seat and now has to fight for FCFS (he could be senior just not senior enough!)? Or they book multiple jump seats in anticipation of getting kicked off a few?

Just seems like a problem in search of a solution.

PRS Guitars
03-02-2018, 11:55 AM
Then the guy that gets booted no longer has a seat and now has to fight for FCFS (he could be senior just not senior enough!)? Or they book multiple jump seats in anticipation of getting kicked off a few?

Just seems like a problem in search of a solution.

This is my concern, the unintended consequences of a hybrid system. Booking multiple seats could be one, another is guys booking a seat just in case, when they probably wonít use it.

I think you meant ďa solution in search of a problemĒ:cool:

R57 relay
03-02-2018, 02:18 PM
All the hyperbole and finger pointing and name calling directed at the "senior" aside, the main reason for a hybrid system is to eliminate rhe "fastest fingers" from the equation and allow everyone who may be flying or sleeping or watching their kid's game or whatever at the first second the window opens a chance to plan also.

Three or four days of FCFS is plenty, lots of folks trade trips inside of eight, and even inside of three.

So, as a supporter of seniority first do you support that because time served with the company should have it's benefits? If so, would you support the seniority period to be by DOH? The reason I ask is because we don't really have a "seniority list", we have a randomly generated list of pilots.

Al Czervik
03-02-2018, 02:35 PM
So, as a supporter of seniority first do you support that because time served with the company should have it's benefits? If so, would you support the seniority period to be by DOH? The reason I ask is because we don't really have a "seniority list", we have a randomly generated list of pilots.

Someone posted an email from AA IT that said it would be seniority by length of service (hire date).

PRS Guitars
03-02-2018, 02:45 PM
Someone posted an email from AA IT that said it would be seniority by length of service (hire date).

Better not be LOS at AMR. Iím gonna be pretty ****ed off if Eagle flows start going ahead of me for the JS. Our (Newish hires) JS seniority would continue to be diluted for years. Assuming they go hybrid.

I would think it would have to be based on the seniority list, since we donít have a DOH list. This is something an IT guy might not understand right now.

R57 relay
03-02-2018, 03:07 PM
Someone posted an email from AA IT that said it would be seniority by length of service (hire date).

Man, I can't see that flying with certain folks! Should make current system secure!:)

Then again, many don't really understand the disparity between LOS and seniority numbers on our list. Someone on C&R told me I was nuts when I told them that a friend of mine hired at AA a month after I was at PI was over 3000 numbers senior to me.

Frip
03-02-2018, 03:14 PM
To answer questions from two posts without quotimg all of both...

Yes I absolutely support Seniority as in Company Date on HI-8,

And, There are are arguments both directions, but my main reason for supporting a hybrid system is to give everyone including those who are flying or for whatever other reason unable to make the call at the starting gun a shot at making a reservation.

To that end, two days of seniority would be enough.

More days of seniority means more flexibility for the frequent traders.

fwiw... There is no "need" to have the reservation to return home before you leave home for a trip. Thousands have demonstrated that for decades. You may be used to it and it may be a nice thing - if you get back in time - but it is nowhere near a "need".

The JS is still not a commuter seat. A pilot who lives in base going to see his kids or parents probably feels like that opportunity to spend time with his family is every git as important as the commuters' desire to spend more time with theirs. They just do it differently.

Maybe one pilot likes to live in God's Country, and commute to work while the other prefers to live in base, and travel to God's Country.

Equally important.


For example.

Name User
03-02-2018, 03:43 PM
Better not be LOS at AMR. Iím gonna be pretty ****ed off if Eagle flows start going ahead of me for the JS. Our (Newish hires) JS seniority would continue to be diluted for years. Assuming they go hybrid.

I would think it would have to be based on the seniority list, since we donít have a DOH list. This is something an IT guy might not understand right now.

Only a select few Eagle flows got DOH dates equivalent to around 1999-2000, they are sub 11000 numbers, and they got that awarded like they were new hires then. They were withheld but given a seniority number. It really isn't a big deal...

PRS Guitars
03-02-2018, 07:04 PM
Only a select few Eagle flows got DOH dates equivalent to around 1999-2000, they are sub 11000 numbers, and they got that awarded like they were new hires then. They were withheld but given a seniority number. It really isn't a big deal...

Iím fine with that, itís guys not yet on property going ahead of me with their AMR DOH that Iíd have a problem with.

Frip
03-03-2018, 03:59 AM
Then824 were the last group to come over with anything. Everyone behind them starts as "new-hires", and the 824 ended a while ago.

mainlineAF
03-03-2018, 02:44 PM
Only a select few Eagle flows got DOH dates equivalent to around 1999-2000, they are sub 11000 numbers, and they got that awarded like they were new hires then. They were withheld but given a seniority number. It really isn't a big deal...



Heís talking about how the eagle guys get their longevity for vacation not those guys youíre talking about. Iíd be livid if their eagle time counted for the jumpseat.