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View Full Version : ATI numbers released


OverGMcGee
02-23-2018, 12:59 PM
We slide in behind Kalitta but have a quality of life

Fo 45-50%

Senior capt 51%

Looks very promising, great job ALPA and to our MEC


kolt66
02-23-2018, 01:14 PM
Thanks but, got anything more specific than that?

l8fr82hub
02-23-2018, 01:56 PM
Thanks but, got anything more specific than that?
The info that the MEC put out was vague and confusing. Captains get a 41-51.7% pay raise. No telling how the COLA that the senior folks were getting was factored in (12% last year). Could be that the senior people get the 41% and the junior captains get 51.7%. Also, the guarantee got bumped from 56hrs in 13 bid units to 60 hours per 13 bid units.

The MEC has approved the TA- why not release it and let us read it for ourselves? C'mon Tom! go out on a high note!


Jurassic Jet
02-23-2018, 02:03 PM
We slide in behind Kalitta....

Looks very promising, great job ALPA and to our MEC

If the ATI group settles for ANYTHING less than ACMI INDUSTRY LEADING in this type of market, you are beyond help. Grow a set. Donít believe back door promises.

l8fr82hub
02-23-2018, 02:08 PM
If the ATI group settles for ANYTHING less than ACMI INDUSTRY LEADING in this type of market, you are beyond help. Grow a set. Don’t believe back door promises.
You're working under a 9 year old concessionary contract- don't preach to us. Grow a set and get your own house in order!

Nope1000
02-23-2018, 02:13 PM
If I can do some quick math.....
So significantly less than Kalitta and behind Abx current book?
Wow!

Jurassic Jet
02-23-2018, 02:16 PM
Get your own house in order!

Weíre working on it. Would be nice if we had a sister group that would stand shoulder to shoulder with us and stop this whipsaw BS in its tracks.

l8fr82hub
02-23-2018, 02:23 PM
If I can do some quick math.....
So significantly less than Kalitta and behind Abx current book?
Wow!

Behind "current book"? how? Is $172.8k more than $187-$201? Are you bad at math?

Nice 1st post BTW Z....

gptjjbmj
02-23-2018, 02:31 PM
If I can do some quick math.....
So significantly less than Kalitta and behind Abx current book?
Wow!

How so? Numbers released are tit for tat Kalitta. Is there some reason you can't wait till the whole thing is released before you start bashing us?

l8fr82hub
02-23-2018, 02:31 PM
We’re working on it. Would be nice if we had a sister group that would stand shoulder to shoulder with us and stop this whipsaw BS in its tracks.
Don't blame us for your problems. we're about to surpass your pay, by a good margin, while you still work for substandard pay.

goinaround
02-23-2018, 03:46 PM
Don't blame us for your problems. we're about to surpass your pay, by a good margin, while you still work for substandard pay.

So if ABX is at 179K....and you're going to 187K.....you'd pat yourself on the back for that? Senior K4 skippers will be pushing $300K at maturation. I mean if you're happy with it...it's your prerogative and all.

CTRCommander
02-23-2018, 03:53 PM
So if ABX is at 179K....and you're going to 187K.....you'd pat yourself on the back for that? Senior K4 skippers will be pushing $300K at maturation. I mean if you're happy with it...it's your prerogative and all.
Donít cherrypick. We donít know the real numbers yet. The high end was 201k. Your ďsenior skippersĒ should work for $400-500k! They are the cream of the crap after all!

CTRCommander
02-23-2018, 04:01 PM
im going to bed, so hereís a quick question...does a caravan captain make as much as as MD-11 captain? If not then why? same logo and same freight after all,

goinaround
02-23-2018, 04:12 PM
I didn't mean to sound like a jerk. I just want to make sure that when CAM dry leases the last of the ABX 767s off the ramp....we have a good contract to slide over to should they offer us refuge.

goinaround
02-23-2018, 04:16 PM
im going to bed, so hereís a quick question...does a FedEd caravan captain make as much as as Fedex MD-11 captain? If not then why? same logo and same freight after all,

And it's because of the lower level of experience and knowledge required to operate the less complex aircraft in a less complex environment. Most folks flying the caravans are building time to move on to a 767 so that they can make more money, have more time off, etc...

Reactivity
02-23-2018, 04:19 PM
A 51.7% increase over current 12-year ATI captain rates and 780 hour per year guarantee would equate to $263/hour at ABXís 816 hour per year guarantee. Thatís 20% over the current ABX 12-year captain rate.

Of course, thereís a lot more to it than just the rate. And thatís why ABX is still working under a 9-year-old concessionary contract. This is not a group that will give everything away for the sake of a big number.

CTRCommander
02-23-2018, 04:20 PM
Oh h*** lets get all the ctrís to post under this log in

Its been a while, we let it cool off.

Lets see if that buck tooth troll can figure the rest of us out!!!

CTRCommander
02-23-2018, 04:25 PM
Copy ALL

Ctr here

goinaround
02-23-2018, 04:32 PM
A 51.7% increase over current 12-year ATI captain rates and 780 hour per year guarantee would equate to $263/hour at ABXís 816 hour per year guarantee. Thatís 20% over the current ABX 12-year captain rate.

Of course, thereís a lot more to it than just the rate. And thatís why ABX is still working under a 9-year-old concessionary contract. This is not a group that will give everything away for the sake of a big number.

Don't forget....home basing has a 17% premium attached to it if I recall correctly. That equates to $307/hr. We're getting way off the reservation here..... I do sincerely wish the best for you guys in this.

CTRCommander
02-23-2018, 04:35 PM
One log in 3 IPís all at once

midnightshuttle
02-23-2018, 05:35 PM
about every ATI legacy is for this turd.

They be worried about getting a something for themselves before 65 and f everyone else in the list. This wont go no 2yrs in arbitration not a chance in **** . Union spinning it like that u wait and see.


Get ready ATLAS ABX they pass this and your next!!!!

Jason605
02-23-2018, 07:25 PM
Intriguing and vague, but if you guys are getting a 50% raise, then I guess that's pretty good. Even if it's 50% on top of an already low amount. I say sign it and rock on. I don't think you guys could do much better than that.

Captjim
02-23-2018, 09:12 PM
Any info on retirement and scheduling?

Nope1000
02-23-2018, 10:28 PM
Any info on retirement and scheduling?

You are hilarious

121again
02-24-2018, 03:19 AM
Leaking selected bits and pieces doesn't really tell the whole story.

navigatro
02-24-2018, 03:21 AM
Leaking selected bits and pieces doesn't really tell the whole story.

like a baby's diaper...

WingOffLight
02-24-2018, 04:55 AM
So Im strait on this

The scale seems to be less than Kalitta at thier current DOS?

Will it pass?

dynap09
02-24-2018, 07:26 AM
Very curious on changes to non pay items.

Pay change is meaningful.

Folks are saying this is concessionary. I really would like to understand what is concessionary about this contract (using normal english please - a concessionary contract gives away elements of a contract normally for job security).

Most concessionary agreements I am familiar with involve a pay reduction etc. So it would be good for the folks shouting this is a concessionary agreement to the last ATI contract to be a bit more specific in terms of how the overall contract is worse than what folks have now.

maxjet
02-24-2018, 07:56 AM
So Im strait on this

The scale seems to be less than Kalitta at thier current DOS?

Will it pass?

Question: Where did they start out? What is the health of the company? Is the company going to expand or stay relatively the same size? What are the non flying sections?

These are the reasons for voting yes or no. Not because somebody on an Internet forum, myself included, tells you what to do. In the case of K4,we knew that the company could afford to not negotiate for years.They are financially sound to the extent that they can leave airplanes sit for extended periods of time. We thought Connie wanted to expand and that was why he came to the table. Regarding the above questions, our NC got the best deal that they thought they could. They told us it was the best deal and we voted overwhelmingly for it.

No point discussing what happened next as we have taken care of that and now happily sit at the ALPA table with you guys. Happen to notice that no K4 people are on here telling you not to vote for YOUR OWN CONTRACT?

I have a real issue when my competitors tell me not to vote for something that my Negotiators tell me is the best deal they can get. Who do I trust? My people? Some unknown individual on the internet? I voted for my Negotiators, I did not vote for the guy on the internet.

Good luck

Industry Strnd
02-24-2018, 08:25 AM
Why should anyone trust Internet boards, negotiators, or management?

Wouldn't it make sense to look at the deal and ask...

Is the the best deal given the state of the industry and my company?

Will it put me inline with my peers doing the same job?

How should I vote knowing I'm going to live under this for the next 3-7 years?

Where wil the rest of the industry be then?

Does it provide solid language Job security not just a promise and hand shake?

How do the rates compare to the rest of the industry, will I be flying a wide body for 737 rates?

Does it have an industry standard DC retirement? Most all airlines legacy, discount carriers, ABX and some regionals have a DC plan. If a panel of 3 arbitrators gave Alaska Virgin 15% DC and ABX has 7.5% Where should ATI be?

How much more time off do I get? Most in the industry have 13-15 days off a month, the sister carrier has 14 days off in their TA?

These are just a few questions for the language in the TA to speak to not someone opinon or excuses for it not having the industry standard!

Industry Strnd
02-24-2018, 08:27 AM
And is vacation extra days off or is it on days already scheduled off?

Jurassic Jet
02-24-2018, 08:49 AM
Folks are saying this is concessionary. I really would like to understand what is concessionary about this contract...


A couple posts above me laid it out pretty well for you.

The market right now is unlike any we have EVER seen in our careers. There is no better time to demand EVERYTHING we think we deserve. Look at the executive compensation of ATSG. Those numbers are possible ONLY by substandard contracts off the backs of the employees. No retirement plans, having to take vacation on days off, etc., are all funded on the backs of labor.

So, in quick summary, concessionary in THIS MARKET, is accepting and doing work for ANYTHING less than your peers do it for.

Boris Badenov
02-24-2018, 09:25 AM
So, in quick summary, concessionary in THIS MARKET, is accepting and doing work for ANYTHING less than your peers do it for.

I'm not defending the ATI TA no one has seen, here, but it strikes me that doing work for ANYTHING *more* than your peers do it for is a good way to find the unemployment line.

goinaround
02-24-2018, 09:39 AM
I'm not defending the ATI TA no one has seen, here, but it strikes me that doing work for ANYTHING *more* than your peers do it for is a good way to find the unemployment line.

Huh?.......

zerozero
02-24-2018, 10:05 AM
I'm not defending the ATI TA no one has seen, here, but it strikes me that doing work for ANYTHING *more* than your peers do it for is a good way to find the unemployment line.

lol.
Really?
:(

Airplaneflyer11
02-24-2018, 10:18 AM
Any info on retirement and scheduling?

Of course not! Why would that even be considered when Amazon wants an airline and pilots want a career. That'll be discussed after the yes/no vote unfortunately. ALPA mostly worries about front end pay. Just sayin...

Airplaneflyer11
02-24-2018, 10:22 AM
I'm not defending the ATI TA no one has seen, here, but it strikes me that doing work for ANYTHING *more* than your peers do it for is a good way to find the unemployment line.


True...Come on guys. Lets all race to the bottom like the regional ALPA model promoted for the last ten years. Maybe we can start taking each others airplanes then too. It'll be wonderful all over again :eek:

Boris Badenov
02-24-2018, 10:43 AM
True...Come on guys. Lets all race to the bottom like the regional ALPA model promoted for the last ten years. Maybe we can start taking each others airplanes then too. It'll be wonderful all over again :eek:

Relax, killer. I'm not suggesting (as I said) that the ATI TA (which, again, no one who doesn't work there has seen, as far as I can tell) is a good one. I'm guessing, in fact, that I won't like it much, either. I don't have an app in there, and that's for a reason.

My concern was with the weird verbiage. Is it really true that anything one dollar less than what other guys are making is a "concession"? It's an entire pilot group. A lot of those guys have been there for decades. And the expectation is that they will now strike and potentially put the entire airline out of business (if the Bosses are to be believed) if they're not given Kalitta + 1?

All that I'm suggesting is that it's a little bit of a fantasy to expect a guy who has been in a particular shop for 20 or 30 years to reject a TA that doesn't live up to what you (or I, for that matter) would like for it to be simply because we would like for it to be better. This is Capitalism, competition, reality.

Anyway, whatever. I hope it's a great TA. Second choice would be that it's a terrible TA and it's voted down. It's this bizarre fantasy/expectation that everyone who is there must have "pattern bargaining" as their first priority which I find so strange. Easy for us to say.

Airplaneflyer11
02-24-2018, 11:21 AM
Relax, killer. I'm not suggesting (as I said) that the ATI TA (which, again, no one who doesn't work there has seen, as far as I can tell) is a good one. I'm guessing, in fact, that I won't like it much, either. I don't have an app in there, and that's for a reason.

My concern was with the weird verbiage. Is it really true that anything one dollar less than what other guys are making is a "concession"? It's an entire pilot group. A lot of those guys have been there for decades. And the expectation is that they will now strike and potentially put the entire airline out of business (if the Bosses are to be believed) if they're not given Kalitta + 1?

All that I'm suggesting is that it's a little bit of a fantasy to expect a guy who has been in a particular shop for 20 or 30 years to reject a TA that doesn't live up to what you (or I, for that matter) would like for it to be simply because we would like for it to be better. This is Capitalism, competition, reality.

Anyway, whatever. I hope it's a great TA. Second choice would be that it's a terrible TA and it's voted down. It's this bizarre fantasy/expectation that everyone who is there must have "pattern bargaining" as their first priority which I find so strange. Easy for us to say.


LOL First time ever been called killer. Admittedly it was a bit snarky. The unfortunate truth is that a race to the bottom is what the current ACMI management teams want. That aside +/- 1 dollar is why TA's get voted on. You've got to understand the contract's or the lack thereof that AAWH and ATSG is slapping us across the faces with is one of the most insulting things they could do given Amazon/ DHL and the booming air cargo market. I'm sure it's all in the agenda cause all the tactics are the same between all the leadership (no coincidence in my opinion). So I can guarantee you that if any of these management teams SHOWED UP to the table with a real contract all these things could be resolved. And dare I say even if it wasn't K4 rates? Wheres the retirement? Line construction?. ATSG wants ABX to fly 20 days a month as a line standard with no additional pay or schedule protections. Why would we even consider that? That's not counting the many other line items they are trying to dissolve that does nothing more than bankrupt the individual and lead a family to divorce because you're never home...I too hope it's a great TA as well. Just not too many trust ALPA unfortunately.

dynap09
02-24-2018, 12:48 PM
True...Come on guys. Lets all race to the bottom like the regional ALPA model promoted for the last ten years. Maybe we can start taking each others airplanes then too. It'll be wonderful all over again :eek:

This is exactly what I'm having trouble understanding. You have folks saying this contract starts a race to the bottom (pay, benefits etc going down). You have others saying there are pay increases. Who to believe?

I was asking that folks use normal English here. If this is a contract that starts a race to the bottom I'd want to understand that. The market is great right now. Why would ATI try to do a concessionary contract / go down from where they are? Why would union push that? Retention is already an issue - I don't even see the win company side to go down from where they are.

There have been periods in this industry with concessionary contracts / races to the bottom. While I keep on being told this contract is one of those times I'm finding it hard to follow these claims.

So please continue to use straightforward english, don't call up down unless it is.

vroll1800
02-24-2018, 06:14 PM
d-09: ATI is at such a low level that almost anything would be an improvement over their current contract. From the (intentionally?) sketchy information provided, it appears that ATI pilots would get a substantial raise.

However, there is a wide enough gap between current ATI rates, and Industry Standard whereby a TA could substantially improve ones lot (thus not "Concessionary") yet still fall short of "Industry Standard". The more correct term would be "Substandard" Agreement.

Wrt to Boris: If every pilot group had your attitude, the pilot profession would never have advanced to present levels. We'd still be stuck at bankruptcy contract or DC-3 pay levels. Have you never heard of "jacking the house up" ?

Of course, some people will make the argument that if you're not jacking the house up, you're dragging it down. All eyes are upon the ATI pilot group now.

l8fr82hub
02-24-2018, 06:32 PM
So what exactly is the ďindustry standardĒ for the 767/757 ACMI carriers?

freighthound
02-24-2018, 08:44 PM
I'm not defending the ATI TA no one has seen, here, but it strikes me that doing work for ANYTHING *more* than your peers do it for is a good way to find the unemployment line.

Please tell me you are joking when you say that? If not I hope you are a management stooge. If not that has to be about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

HercDriver130
02-24-2018, 11:17 PM
So what exactly is the ďindustry standardĒ for the 767/757 ACMI carriers?

Exactly... guys at some carriers don't want to hear this but Industry standard for ACMI and Industry standard for other is different... cold hard facts... we live and work under different business model than our cousins at UPS and FED EX.... you dont have to like those facts...but facts they are none the less. The pilots of ATI have to make the decision to what they can live with and what they can live without. End of story. In totality of every pilot group does SOME of the lifting to raise the tide in the ACMI world we will all be better off... NO one pilot group can hope to achieve everything at once.

nitefr8dog
02-25-2018, 02:49 AM
Exactly... guys at some carriers don't want to hear this but Industry standard for ACMI and Industry standard for other is different... cold hard facts... we live and work under different business model than our cousins at UPS and FED EX.... you dont have to like those facts...but facts they are none the less. The pilots of ATI have to make the decision to what they can live with and what they can live without. End of story. In totality of every pilot group does SOME of the lifting to raise the tide in the ACMI world we will all be better off... NO one pilot group can hope to achieve everything at once.

Weak.......

Jason605
02-25-2018, 02:50 AM
Unfortunately many, and by many I mean most, that have posted some of the dumbest responses I've read in awhile, just don't really see the big picture and problem with this whole situation.

ATI and ABX just so happen to be negotiating at the same time and we are not really negotiating with our respective management but really with ATSG and JH since we are both owned by the same entity. How we lost single carrier is beyond me since when I call flight control and ask for scheduling, I get, " Are you ATI or ABX?" Another argument for another day.

Moving on. Our respective managements are nothing more than messengers. Tools of JH. He's the one calling the shots. Most recently our messengers gave a proposal to us at ABX. We turned it down. We know our worth and know what the number should be.

Strangely enough it appears that those numbers are going to be what we see in the ATI TA. (Just going off the %'s that have been thrown out. We'll see soon enough I guess.).

This whole situation is nothing more than ATSG trying to get one of us to undercut the other. The whipsaw is in full effect and since it's been proven that the ATI pilot group lacks leadership, they have no doubt taken the bait. Some on here promote this kind of whipsaw buy throwing out their little "competition" dribble in every thread he gets in. Not even gonna address him here. Him and people like him are the reason so much is wrong in this industry. Moving on again,

No one can deny that any raise for ATI is a raise. They are one of the lowest paid out there, so yeah, this is going to be more money, but it's not going to be the right amount of money or other big ticket items and it's being done to simply try and break the ABX pilots.

Whatever happens, nothing will break our resolve. We would rather close the doors than sign a deal that doesn't recognize the tremendous job and sacrifice that's already been done and given. ATI has a choice here. They are either going to know their worth or play ball with JH and see what empty promises he has for them.

Last time that ATI played ball (with ALPA's consent to boot) they were awarded for it. I know you guys don't like hearing it and I know that some ATI pilots walked a picket line with ABX, but this did happen. "Some" ATI pilots crossed a legal strike zone and the company as a whole was awarded for it with more airplanes and I have yet to see an ATI pilot call out their own for doing so or call out ALPA for supporting it.

I'm hopeful but not holding my breath that the ATI pilot group will show some courage this time around if this TA turns out to be less than it should be in gains across the board.

Globemaster2827
02-25-2018, 04:58 AM
LOL First time ever been called killer. Admittedly it was a bit snarky. The unfortunate truth is that a race to the bottom is what the current ACMI management teams want. That aside +/- 1 dollar is why TA's get voted on. You've got to understand the contract's or the lack thereof that AAWH and ATSG is slapping us across the faces with is one of the most insulting things they could do given Amazon/ DHL and the booming air cargo market. I'm sure it's all in the agenda cause all the tactics are the same between all the leadership (no coincidence in my opinion). So I can guarantee you that if any of these management teams SHOWED UP to the table with a real contract all these things could be resolved. And dare I say even if it wasn't K4 rates? Wheres the retirement? Line construction?. ATSG wants ABX to fly 20 days a month as a line standard with no additional pay or schedule protections. Why would we even consider that? That's not counting the many other line items they are trying to dissolve that does nothing more than bankrupt the individual and lead a family to divorce because you're never home...I too hope it's a great TA as well. Just not too many trust ALPA unfortunately.

The fact that your leadership is silent on retirement is an ominous sign. I can almost promise that I'd be voting "No" and in the mean time voting with my feet as well.

CallmeJB
02-25-2018, 05:01 AM
How anybody can call an average 50% payraise a "concession" is beyond me. I'm not saying the TA is setting a new standard (it isn't), but you've still got to be impressed with payrate increases that are that substantial.

Some Captains are getting an 80% increase in pay. And some on here want them to vote no? I get it, 'maybe they could get more', but that's a tough sell when there is an offer for that much more pay right now.

Globemaster2827
02-25-2018, 05:04 AM
Exactly... guys at some carriers don't want to hear this but Industry standard for ACMI and Industry standard for other is different... cold hard facts... we live and work under different business model than our cousins at UPS and FED EX.... you dont have to like those facts...but facts they are none the less. The pilots of ATI have to make the decision to what they can live with and what they can live without. End of story. In totality of every pilot group does SOME of the lifting to raise the tide in the ACMI world we will all be better off... NO one pilot group can hope to achieve everything at once.

Management can say whatever they want about their model but I will leave for those airlines if offered a job and they need to work that into their model. Everyone under about 55 should as well. 2nd year pay at UPS is more than being a Captain at any of these ACMI carriers and you work less. Things like retirement and work rules matter.

Industry Strnd
02-25-2018, 06:25 AM
Exactly... guys at some carriers don't want to hear this but Industry standard for ACMI and Industry standard for other is different... cold hard facts... we live and work under different business model than our cousins at UPS and FED EX.... you dont have to like those facts...but facts they are none the less. The pilots of ATI have to make the decision to what they can live with and what they can live without. End of story. In totality of every pilot group does SOME of the lifting to raise the tide in the ACMI world we will all be better off... NO one pilot group can hope to achieve everything at once.

This is either management or someone from ALPA who believes everything management tells him. Did you ever think that management could go to Amazon and DHL and tell them where the rest of the industry is and they have to pay more to retain pilots and grow the airline? You think Amazon can't afford it? The Regionals argued for years that they were a different model now all the sudden they have defined contribution retirement plans top pay of nearly $150 an hour to fly an RJ $25,000 signing and retention bonuses, the major Partners paid up!

maxjet
02-25-2018, 07:04 AM
Jasonís post above has a lot of validity. This is a whipsaw and in this case if I were an ATI Pilot, I would have to vote no. Yes 50% is a substantial pay raise but ultimately it will be a pay decrease. They have demonstrated that they can pay more and still remain profitable. If you were 2 different companies it would be a different question.

ABX rates + is what I would need to vote yes.

Thank you Jason for a civil, well trout out lucid description of the bigger picture.

Jason605
02-25-2018, 07:42 AM
Jasonís post above has a lot of validity. This is a whipsaw and in this case if I were an ATI Pilot, I would have to vote no. Yes 50% is a substantial pay raise but ultimately it will be a pay decrease. They have demonstrated that they can pay more and still remain profitable. If you were 2 different companies it would be a different question.

ABX rates + is what I would need to vote yes.

Thank you Jason for a civil, well trout out lucid description of the bigger picture.

Thank you Max. I have sober moments on here as well. Cheers!

plift
02-25-2018, 08:35 AM
How anybody can call an average 50% payraise a "concession" is beyond me.

It's a concession to the company if you let them get by with a CBA that lags behind where the rest of the industry is or is headed.

The fact that it's taking so long to release the actual TA and there has been no talk of the work rules, retirement, vacation and the only sliver of info has been some cryptic details of the pay % increase should raise some major red flags over the quality of this TA.

gptjjbmj
02-25-2018, 10:11 AM
Jasonís post above has a lot of validity. This is a whipsaw and in this case if I were an ATI Pilot, I would have to vote no. Yes 50% is a substantial pay raise but ultimately it will be a pay decrease. They have demonstrated that they can pay more and still remain profitable. If you were 2 different companies it would be a different question.

ABX rates + is what I would need to vote yes.

Thank you Jason for a civil, well trout out lucid description of the bigger picture.

Which ACMI has higher pay rates. Kalitta has the highest pay rates which this TA matches. ABX makes it's money on its work rules which ATI (I don't believe) will ever get. These rates are the same rates that OMNI has TA'd.

Jason605
02-25-2018, 10:47 AM
Which ACMI has higher pay rates. Kalitta has the highest pay rates which this TA matches. ABX makes it's money on its work rules which ATI (I don't believe) will ever get. These rates are the same rates that OMNI has TA'd.

I think we still have yet to see the actual rates before assuming it matches K4. Like as been said before, we are almost a month into this announcement and nothing but a percentage range has been said.

If that percentage and K4 match is correct, it's not even in the same ballpark to what the ABX pilots have been seeking on rates alone. Bring all the other items like retirement, work rules, etc into play and it should be a non starter for ATI. Unless of course the goal is to undercut for a perceived benefit.

Asci
02-25-2018, 12:34 PM
Whatís a 767-300 cost to operate?
http://www.planestats.com/bhsw_2014sep
$7k-$10k per hour.
What difference does $10-$30 difference in pilot pay make?
Less than 1% of the operating cost. Do you really think anyone is undercutting you and winning business this way?

That being said when you are looking at a new contract does asking for $10-$30 more per hour seem outrageous?
No.

So non ATI pilots: If ATI signs a contract less than K4 rates, relax it doesnít affect your negotiating power. Not even a little bit.

ATI pilots: If you think management canít afford to pay you more than K4, youíre insane.

Side note for ABX and ATI. ATSG is reporting earnings on the 27th. Letís just see how much cash they have to pay their pilots.

Additionally would it be crazy to ask for some profit sharing or have me too clauses in a contract?

maxjet
02-25-2018, 01:19 PM
Whatís a 767-300 cost to operate?
Reported Operating Cost and Utilization of More Than 500 Wide-body Aircraft (http://www.planestats.com/bhsw_2014sep)
$7k-$10k per hour.
What difference does $10-$30 difference in pilot pay make?
Less than 1% of the operating cost. Do you really think anyone is undercutting you and winning business this way?

That being said when you are looking at a new contract does asking for $10-$30 more per hour seem outrageous?
No.

So non ATI pilots: If ATI signs a contract less than K4 rates, relax it doesnít affect your negotiating power. Not even a little bit.

ATI pilots: If you think management canít afford to pay you more than K4, youíre insane.

Side note for ABX and ATI. ATSG is reporting earnings on the 27th. Letís just see how much cash they have to pay their pilots.

Additionally would it be crazy to ask for some profit sharing or have me too clauses in a contract?

Well you numbers are way too high. A 747 freighter rents for 12,000/hr on a good day. A long term contract could be half that. Keep in mind that the customer pays for fuel etc above rental rate. I think the 73 freighter might be getting 3000/hr or so with DHL. Just my guess.

That being said, it kind of wrecks your argument

Asci
02-25-2018, 01:43 PM
Well you numbers are way too high. A 747 freighter rents for 12,000/hr on a good day. A long term contract could be half that. Keep in mind that the customer pays for fuel etc above rental rate. I think the 73 freighter might be getting 3000/hr or so with DHL. Just my guess.

That being said, it kind of wrecks your argument

So $3k per hour. Ok so paying each pilot $30 more per hour: $60/$3000= 2%. Big whoop.
ATSG has been paying ABX pilots 50% more than ATI pilots for the last 5 plus years. Thatís even before overtime $$ they get from their work rules. They still got half of the new aircraft for amazon until they went on strike.
If pilot pay was the driving factor why would ATSG give any airplanes to a pilot group that costs that much more?

dynap09
02-25-2018, 02:36 PM
Unfortunately many, and by many I mean most, that have posted some of the dumbest responses I've read in awhile

...

"Some" ATI pilots crossed a legal strike zone and the company as a whole was awarded for it with more airplanes and I have yet to see an ATI pilot call out their own for doing so or call out ALPA for supporting it.

I've spent some time going back on the claims here.

The "scabs" at ATI who crossed a "legal" strike line? That legal strike looks to have attracted a temporary restraining order, which was successfully converted into a preliminary injunction. So we are clear, that is the exactly opposite outcome you'd want for a legal strike.

It is seriously confusing to read these kind of statements from the vote no folks. It's like the english language has been warped. The legal strike = a strike shot down by a judge. What seem likely to be raises are concessionary and the contract will begin a race to the bottom.

Why even use this approach as a basis for discussion?

V-roll had a nice post with a much clearer language.

Screwed
02-25-2018, 03:20 PM
I've spent some time going back on the claims here.

The "scabs" at ATI who crossed a "legal" strike line? That legal strike looks to have attracted a temporary restraining order, which was successfully converted into a preliminary injunction. So we are clear, that is the exactly opposite outcome you'd want for a legal strike.

It is seriously confusing to read these kind of statements from the vote no folks. It's like the english language has been warped. The legal strike = a strike shot down by a judge. What seem likely to be raises are concessionary and the contract will begin a race to the bottom.

Why even use this approach as a basis for discussion?

V-roll had a nice post with a much clearer language.

It was a legal strike. It has never been ruled an "Illegal Strike". Just because a judge issued a restraining order does not mean it was illegal at the time.

Nor does a preliminary injunction mean it was illegal. Especially since the company and union had negotiated to resolve the issues.

If a judge can order 2 sides to negotiate using lawyers they are going to choose that option every time. Why? So their fellow lawyers get paid big $$$$$$$$.

Also, why do you think the gov't makes it take so long to finally get approval to strike under the RLA? Because if it was handled quickly the mediators and lawyers would make a lot less money and we would need less of them overall!

At the time those pilots crossed it was a LEGAL STRIKE LINE and has never been judged illegal.

If the strike had been illegal ....then the company would have sued the union for damages like AA did to their pilots.

As for the concessionary vs not concessionary debate. A pilot group could still get a large raise and the contract still be concessionary. If the pilots accept less than what other pilots make for flying the same aircraft under the same conditions then it is concessionary. That applies to both rates and rules. A contract can still be concessionary even if the rates are good but the work rules are not.

But we still don't know exactly what ATI or Omni have been offered....so how does anyone know whether it is concessionary or not.

woog315
02-25-2018, 03:47 PM
So $3k per hour. Ok so paying each pilot $30 more per hour: $60/$3000= 2%. Big whoop.
ATSG has been paying ABX pilots 50% more than ATI pilots for the last 5 plus years. Thatís even before overtime $$ they get from their work rules. They still got half of the new aircraft for amazon until they went on strike.
If pilot pay was the driving factor why would ATSG give any airplanes to a pilot group that costs that much more?

They needed the contract and neither airline was equipped to train 20 planes worth of guys. You have no idea how bad the training department got backed up at both airlines just doing half the contract. It's the entire argument for ABX - "we are more expensive than ATI, but they need us for what they are doing". And if you think a 2% operating cost increase is meaningless, you've got no idea what you're talking about. Airlines can't control many of their costs, but they can at least try to control their labor costs- which kind of magnifies the importance of whatever % of operating costs they represent.

SouthernCr0ss
02-25-2018, 07:52 PM
I would like to see the real TA numbers, but with what information I have gathered from this forum I will put together some ballpark calculated TA numbers. The possible spread is (pls hold the chuckles) huge! My very close friends get scared when I "do the numbers", so ... I'm sorry and I apologize gents.

All the above being said...What always sends up red flags for me is anyone who only uses statistics to disseminate/promote information... This may be paraphrased but it is how I wrote it down decades or more ago...
"the death of one is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic " -Joseph Stalin

If you apply the cryptic 41-51ish% pay "raise" , one can calculate a spread... (DISCLOSURE: All numbers are approximate, I make mathematical/entry errors, I used APC published rates, I am not a bean counter / statistician,and if I messed up I'm sure someone will let me know...😂)

CA 12 yr - ~$239.5 / ~$274.8 ($186,800-214,500 annually)
CA 5 Yr - ~ $200/ ~$229.5 ($156,000-179,400 annually)

FO 12 yr - ~$154.0/ ~$176.7 ($120,100-176,700 annually)
FO 5 yr - ~$129.0/ ~$148.0 ($100,600- 115,400 annually)

First number is = ( (CBR*CYG)*1.41)/ TAYG, this is the low number.
Second number = ((CBR*1.51)*TAYG), this is the high number.
CBR = APC hr rate
CYG = 728 = 13 bid x 56hr guarantee
TAYG= 780 = 13 bid x 60hr guarantee (reported TA)

MY BELIEF/OPINION ONLY! Based upon a lengthy career in the corporate world, I suspect the low numbers are more likely closer to the TA proposed numbers than the higher numbers ( pessimism?) Either way the spread based upon how one can quote statistics is drastic(and scary!).

Freightdawgs please do the math when you get the "packet". Please do not take any presented numbers/percentages from any source as gospel, be a PITA. When you vote, be informed and please look towards the long term. Look past the BS, the company, the forums, and use your intelligence to see the ramifications of your actions today in 1-5-10-20(?) years...

We stand together, or we will fall together! Period!

dynap09
02-26-2018, 05:57 AM
If the pilots accept less than what other pilots make for flying the same aircraft under the same conditions then it is concessionary.


Ok - that is not the definition of concessionary bargaining or a concessionary contract.

Check out:

What is Concession Bargaining? (http://www.cupe1858.org/you-nion-blog/what-is-concession-bargaining)

Unions Finding That Employers Want More Concessions - The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/11/us/unions-finding-that-employers-want-more-concessions.html)

gumpscheck
02-26-2018, 06:13 AM
Ok - that is not the definition of concessionary bargaining or a concessionary contract.

Check out:

What is Concession Bargaining? (http://www.cupe1858.org/you-nion-blog/what-is-concession-bargaining)

Unions Finding That Employers Want More Concessions - The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/11/us/unions-finding-that-employers-want-more-concessions.html)

Funny!!! That article from the NYT is 15 years old and a whole different industry. If pilots donít learn to appreciate their own value in the current environment, we will never learn. Donít be selfish and accept shiny new pay scales just because you will be retiring within the next three to five years. Look at the whole package and decide for yourself.

Remember; if you take care of the profession, the profession will take care of you.

Boris Badenov
02-26-2018, 07:44 AM
Not as good as you think it should be /= concessionary in much the same way that guy you don't like /= scab.

Words mean stuff.

Screwed
02-26-2018, 08:31 AM
Ok - that is not the definition of concessionary bargaining or a concessionary contract.

Check out:

What is Concession Bargaining? (http://www.cupe1858.org/you-nion-blog/what-is-concession-bargaining)

Unions Finding That Employers Want More Concessions - The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/11/us/unions-finding-that-employers-want-more-concessions.html)

Just look up the definition of concession or concessionary in the dictionary.

I accept a dictionary as factual.

nitefr8dog
02-26-2018, 12:48 PM
You're working under a 9 year old concessionary contract- don't preach to us. Grow a set and get your own house in order!
ABX could have had what you are getting a long time ago....just not willing to settle for it...

airbus300
02-26-2018, 12:55 PM
ABX could have had what you are getting a long time ago....just not willing to settle for it...

What pay is ABX shooting for? 12 year Captain___
12 year F/O____. Roughly. Thanks.

Jason605
02-26-2018, 03:18 PM
I've spent some time going back on the claims here.

The "scabs" at ATI who crossed a "legal" strike line? That legal strike looks to have attracted a temporary restraining order, which was successfully converted into a preliminary injunction. So we are clear, that is the exactly opposite outcome you'd want for a legal strike.

It is seriously confusing to read these kind of statements from the vote no folks. It's like the english language has been warped. The legal strike = a strike shot down by a judge. What seem likely to be raises are concessionary and the contract will begin a race to the bottom.

Why even use this approach as a basis for discussion?

V-roll had a nice post with a much clearer language.

I've said it before in other threads. The company settled two of the major striking disputes prior to the judges rulling. Some crossed and ALPA supported the crossing.

ATI Rewarded: ATSG Conference call, Joe Hete comments, “ ATI did not support the Abx Air strike… therefore ATI will be getting all remaining Amazon flying”

I'm not using the strike as a basis for anything other than to show character and motivation of some of the ATI pilots. Now ATI is being used to whipsaw the ABX pilot group during contract negotiations. They are most likely being offered a lower rate than what is being sought by ABX. The desired outcome would be that no one group lowballs the other.

thesandbox
02-26-2018, 04:01 PM
Yeah....the majors never pattern base bargain or have "me too" clauses...you would think professionals with decades in the industry would know the basics and understand a bit about the economy.

boiler
02-26-2018, 04:24 PM
Yeah....the majors never pattern base bargain or have "me too" clauses...you would think professionals with decades in the industry would know the basics and understand a bit about the economy.



Clearly youíre an expert. Youíre dead wrong. United has a ďme tooĒ clause. As soon as Deltaís new CBA went into effect, United rates went up too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

sky jet
02-26-2018, 04:48 PM
Clearly youíre an expert. Youíre dead wrong. United has a ďme tooĒ clause. As soon as Deltaís new CBA went into effect, United rates went up too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I guess your sarcasm meter is broken?

boiler
02-26-2018, 05:56 PM
I guess your sarcasm meter is broken?



I guess so. My bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thesandbox
02-26-2018, 10:21 PM
I guess your sarcasm meter is broken?

;) ....thanks for noticing....in my best Eeyore voice.

sherpster
02-27-2018, 02:57 AM
The title of this thread is wrong.

FlyLate
02-27-2018, 06:42 AM
I would like to see the real TA numbers, but with what information I have gathered from this forum I will put together some ballpark calculated TA numbers. The possible spread is (pls hold the chuckles) huge! My very close friends get scared when I "do the numbers", so ... I'm sorry and I apologize gents.

All the above being said...What always sends up red flags for me is anyone who only uses statistics to disseminate/promote information... This may be paraphrased but it is how I wrote it down decades or more ago...
"the death of one is a tragedy, the death of a million is a statistic " -Joseph Stalin

If you apply the cryptic 41-51ish% pay "raise" , one can calculate a spread... (DISCLOSURE: All numbers are approximate, I make mathematical/entry errors, I used APC published rates, I am not a bean counter / statistician,and if I messed up I'm sure someone will let me know...😂)

CA 12 yr - ~$239.5 / ~$274.8 ($186,800-214,500 annually)
CA 5 Yr - ~ $200/ ~$229.5 ($156,000-179,400 annually)

FO 12 yr - ~$154.0/ ~$176.7 ($120,100-176,700 annually)
FO 5 yr - ~$129.0/ ~$148.0 ($100,600- 115,400 annually)

First number is = ( (CBR*CYG)*1.41)/ TAYG, this is the low number.
Second number = ((CBR*1.51)*TAYG), this is the high number.
CBR = APC hr rate
CYG = 728 = 13 bid x 56hr guarantee
TAYG= 780 = 13 bid x 60hr guarantee (reported TA)

MY BELIEF/OPINION ONLY! Based upon a lengthy career in the corporate world, I suspect the low numbers are more likely closer to the TA proposed numbers than the higher numbers ( pessimism?) Either way the spread based upon how one can quote statistics is drastic(and scary!).

Freightdawgs please do the math when you get the "packet". Please do not take any presented numbers/percentages from any source as gospel, be a PITA. When you vote, be informed and please look towards the long term. Look past the BS, the company, the forums, and use your intelligence to see the ramifications of your actions today in 1-5-10-20(?) years...

We stand together, or we will fall together! Period!I'm guessing that the numbers given expressed as a range represent date of signing and DOS anniversaries through the life of the contract. If so DOS represents a 40% increase for a 12 year captain. But we have many 17 year and up captains, so the question is whether the COLA continues or evaporates. For a 17 year captain the current COLA is 10%, which if discontinued leaves that captain with only a 30% increase on DOS. Not very special at all...

Jurassic Jet
02-27-2018, 06:56 AM
The title of this thread is wrong.


http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/b6/b6e82cac449178da936a4ce812c59926379d3271a9ee28b583 1c1b99a54a178a.jpg

sherpster
02-27-2018, 07:39 AM
It will pass regardless of what is in it, the older ATI pilots have had rough careers and are scared of their own shadow and the new guys are too new to have any other options. Both groups are betting on the "Amazon Dream".

No need to respond and tell me how I am wrong, I wont be back to read anything you write. I know I am right from talking to those dudes at the DHL facility. Prime Air luggage tags told me all I really needed to know.

2lowflaps
02-27-2018, 08:05 AM
If I can ask ATI crews just one question? Why do you think that you , you QOL and your services are worth less than your sister company ABX? Shouldnít you be demanding the exact same contract that ABX gets? You do the same work, for the same company, in the same aircraft.

kolt66
02-27-2018, 10:26 AM
If I can ask ATI crews just one question? Why do you think that you , you QOL and your services are worth less than your sister company ABX? Shouldnít you be demanding the exact same contract that ABX gets? You do the same work, for the same company, in the same aircraft.

That's a damn good question.

Jurassic Jet
02-27-2018, 10:32 AM
If I can ask ATI crews just one question? Why do you think that you, you QOL and your services are worth less than your sister company ABX? Shouldnít you be demanding the exact same contract that ABX gets? You do the same work, for the same company, in the same aircraft.

That's a damn good question.


Just me thinking out loud but here is what I suspect. I suspect they are being told by the company, "trust us". Sign off on this temporarily, and if you do this now for us, we can promise you something big will develop.

gptjjbmj
02-27-2018, 10:41 AM
Just me thinking out loud but here is what I suspect. I suspect they are being told by the company, "trust us". Sign off on this temporarily, and if you do this now for us, we can promise you something big will develop.

Sat and talked with the CP at the hub yesterday morning. Said nothing even close to that.

gptjjbmj
02-27-2018, 10:44 AM
Just me thinking out loud but here is what I suspect. I suspect they are being told by the company, "trust us". Sign off on this temporarily, and if you do this now for us, we can promise you something big will develop.

Once again why can't we wait to see the TA before you start bashing ATI!

Jurassic Jet
02-27-2018, 12:57 PM
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180227006570/en/ATSG-Revenues-Earnings-Sharply-2017


Whatcha think boys and girls? Think they can afford to open that crusty wallet a bit more?

No Land 3
02-27-2018, 01:30 PM
So you think a 12 year CA should make as much as a 5 year FO at Kalitta? I know of 2nd year FOís grossing over 150k here. You sure your tails donít have Mesa logoís on them?

gptjjbmj
02-27-2018, 02:36 PM
So you think a 12 year CA should make as much as a 5 year FO at Kalitta? I know of 2nd year FOís grossing over 150k here. You sure your tails donít have Mesa logoís on them?

I guess the answer is no then!

l8fr82hub
02-27-2018, 03:02 PM
Once again why can't we wait to see the TA before you start bashing ATI!
Don’t listen to these [email protected]$-clowns. No matter what we do they’ll slam us. If we vote it down we’ll be the cheap labor, if we vote it in we didn’t get enough. Wait until the TA comes out, read it, ask questions and then decide what’s best for you and your family. Go to freightdogs.org and discuss the good and bad of the TA there with the ATI folks when it’s released. All the rest of you don’t even try...

sky jet
02-27-2018, 03:26 PM
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20180227006570/en/ATSG-Revenues-Earnings-Sharply-2017


Whatcha think boys and girls? Think they can afford to open that crusty wallet a bit more?

Just looking at it from the outside I am guessing they would have liked to have had a deal signed before people got a look at those numbers.

Jurassic Jet
02-27-2018, 03:43 PM
Just looking at it from the outside I am guessing they would have liked to have had a deal signed before people got a look at those numbers.

Ohhhhh yeah.

Asci
02-27-2018, 04:29 PM
Just looking at it from the outside I am guessing they would have liked to have had a deal signed before people got a look at those numbers.

Theyíve been posting profits like this since the amazon thing took off. They wanted to get a deal done in a bad way until K4 got their new contract. Ever since then theyíve been dragging their feet.
Once the mediator got scheduled they seem to have a new sense of urgency. I find it hard to believe a mediator would side with the company in any way based on the current industry. I wonder if things with the ABX mediation took a turn for the worse and they are trying to get this done to influence those negotiations?
Only Time will tell.

No Land 3
02-28-2018, 03:13 AM
Donít listen to these [email protected]$-clowns. No matter what we do theyíll slam us. If we vote it down weíll be the cheap labor, if we vote it in we didnít get enough. Wait until the TA comes out, read it, ask questions and then decide whatís best for you and your family. Go to freightdogs.org and discuss the good and bad of the TA there with the ATI folks when itís released. All the rest of you donít even try...

You are free to do as you wish, you're ALPA. That's precisely why we switched, after all...

HercDriver130
02-28-2018, 01:59 PM
They’ve been posting profits like this since the amazon thing took off. They wanted to get a deal done in a bad way until K4 got their new contract. Ever since then they’ve been dragging their feet.
Once the mediator got scheduled they seem to have a new sense of urgency. I find it hard to believe a mediator would side with the company in any way based on the current industry. I wonder if things with the ABX mediation took a turn for the worse and they are trying to get this done to influence those negotiations?
Only Time will tell.

Believe me there are plenty of NMB mediators who come from the management side of the house...

No Land 3
03-01-2018, 07:46 PM
I just looked at Spirits new pay rates, comparable to K4 with a better pension. Thereís no reason why anyone should accept less.

Jason605
03-02-2018, 02:54 AM
I just looked at Spirits new pay rates, comparable to K4 with a better pension. There’s no reason why anyone should accept less.

Ya know, I think ATSG just done messed up here. They should have stopped messing around and signed a deal with ABX long before Spirit. Don't tell me a 767 doesn't make a whole lot more than an airbus and we do it with less overhead. Ive just started to lose interest in the rates even our union was proposing.

ATI needs to look around then and see the advantage they have in this market. I hope what you guys are being offered is well above where it should be.

Show the TA already. What are you guys scared of?

Jurassic Jet
03-02-2018, 03:50 AM
Show the TA already. What are you guys scared of?

They took their ball and went to their super secret clubhouse. L8fr8 said we werenít invited.

airbus300
03-19-2018, 06:32 PM
Intriguing and vague, but if you guys are getting a 50% raise, then I guess that's pretty good. Even if it's 50% on top of an already low amount. I say sign it and rock on. I don't think you guys could do much better than that.

Thanks for the kind words. Not sure how it will turn out. I am guessing 50/50.



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