Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Blown Tire on T/O


rickair7777
02-26-2018, 07:37 AM
I am NOT Monday-morning QB-ing this crew (even though it's Monday morning).

But wanted to hear other's philosophical thoughts on continuing a transcon after a tire blow-out on T/O. As opposed to overweight LDG, or burning/dumping fuel near the departure field or other suitable divert site.

I'm *assuming* they knew they had an issue since they prepped the pax for a rough LDG.




https://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-airlines-plane-blows-tire-on-takeoff-keeps-going-lands-safely-portland-oregon/


FlyJSH
02-26-2018, 03:08 PM
I am NOT Monday-morning QB-ing this crew (even though it's Monday morning).

But wanted to hear other's philosophical thoughts on continuing a transcon after a tire blow-out on T/O. As opposed to overweight LDG, or burning/dumping fuel near the departure field or other suitable divert site.

I'm *assuming* they knew they had an issue since they prepped the pax for a rough LDG.




https://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-airlines-plane-blows-tire-on-takeoff-keeps-going-lands-safely-portland-oregon/

It is possible a trailing aircraft reported fod which was found to be a tire carcass. Just a thought.

galaxy flyer
02-26-2018, 03:32 PM
While the media would make it sound a safety issue; Iíd probably do the same thing, given no wheel well fire indications, the last bit of the roll and lift-off was normal. Better to be light and everybody on the ground ready.

GF


PerfInit
02-26-2018, 04:44 PM
Wonder what the thought process was on retracting the gear after the tire failure on takeoff? Surely they did not fly all the way to their destination with fixed gear. Iíd like to learn some new perspective from this as well.

JohnBurke
02-26-2018, 05:52 PM
If I knew I'd had a tire fail during the takeoff, I wouldn't be attempting to retract the gear.

At that point, I don't know what's going on with the gear, what's hanging out, and what damage has been done. I don't know what damage may have occurred to the gear door, to tilt, to brakes, or to the surrounding structure.

Attempting to go cross country means raising the gear; I understand the sentiment that if the weight is going to be lost, it can either be dumped or burned, and why not burn it enroute, but it's not that simple, and it's an unnecessary risk to continue the flight. The other side of the coin is what may happen if one gets down the line, away from the possibility of an immediate landing, and something cascades, or the gear gets stuck in the well because something is hanging out, or there's damage such as a fuel leak from an exploded tire (concorde, anyone?)...imagine getting there and wishing one had simply returned to land.

I'm of the thought, not knowing full circumstances and only faced with a theoretical per the thread question, of leaving the gear in place and returning to land at Newark.

rickair7777
02-26-2018, 05:55 PM
While the media would make it sound a safety issue; Iíd probably do the same thing, given no wheel well fire indications, the last bit of the roll and lift-off was normal. Better to be light and everybody on the ground ready.

GF

Had visions of potential FOD damage to the aircraft (ala concorde).

2StgTurbine
03-02-2018, 05:54 PM
Odds are they didn't know of the failure until the gear was already retracted.Worst case scenario at that point would be damaged gear and/or damaged skin around the gear increasing drag. An increase in drag (damaged skin) would reveal itself when you got to the TOC and checked your fuel on board. If subsequent checkpoint match the flight plan fuel, then odds are you are fine to continue towards your destination while decreasing your landing weight.

I worked at 2 companies where the exact thing happened and each handled it differently. The first company chastised the crew for continuing and the second company used the crews' decision to continue as a great example of maintaining safety WHILE satisfying the passengers.

JohnBurke
03-02-2018, 06:08 PM
The first company chastised the crew for continuing and the second company used the crews' decision to continue as a great example of maintaining safety WHILE satisfying the passengers.

Satisfied passengers are a small price to pay for a cool smoking hole in the ground.

galaxy flyer
03-02-2018, 07:26 PM
Agreed to return if there were other failure indications, especially wheel well firs/overheat, fuel leak, etc. If I recognized it before retraction, or as PM recognized; Iíd leave the gear down until I could think it over. OTOH, one of my squadronís C-5s blew one on take-off, didnít know until Gander relayed a message from the departure field of a damaged tire on the runway.

Another OTOH, a Global Express years ago had a tire fail, puncture the wing tank and created a large leak and a hasty return. They armored the wheel well inserts as a SN. Made for a good CRM scenario for a couple of years.

GF

2StgTurbine
03-02-2018, 07:57 PM
Satisfied passengers are a small price to pay for a cool smoking hole in the ground.

A little over dramatic I think. In both cases, they were not aware of a tire failure because other aircraft reported debris on the runway. They had no indications of any damage and were flying over land the entire flight. If the situation got worse, they could have diverted at any moment. Instead, they continued to decrease their landing weight while continuing to the destination.

Continuing to the destination is the best/equally best decision to make for most (in terms of actual occurrences in day-to-day operations) abnormal situations.

rickair7777
03-03-2018, 07:51 AM
OK, so if you knew about it immediately, don't pull the gear up and RTF (overweight or dump/burn nearby). Nobody can really second-guess you on that.

If you found out halfway across the continent and all is well so far, might be OK to continue as long as you'll have fuel to troubleshoot hung gear, etc if needed on arrival. Might make sense if the destination is a large field with plenty of CFR capacity.

Hetman
03-03-2018, 03:50 PM
I wasn't there. Not my decision. I will not second guess another pilot's decision.

Speaking only for myself:

If I was aware immediately of the tire failure the gear would stay down and rtf after burning/dumping down to mlw.

If the gear was already up when I learned of it and the route was over civilized land, I would carry on, watching systems, fuel, and alternates closely and taking into account ARFF capability at the destination. If the route was over water or uncivilized land, I would rtf or divert to the best alternate before heading into the scary north. 30 West is a little late to realize the problem is worse than you first thought.

A secondary consideration (running a distant second) is availability of maintenance at the landing field.

That's just me.

In this case, the outcome was good, so in my book the decision making was good. A good outcome is the bottom line.

JohnBurke
03-03-2018, 07:36 PM
No doubt the Concorde crew had a few moments to realize that the blown tire might be more serious than just a blown tire.

The question of the thread didn't ask about a crew that took off and had no idea a tire failed. They knew. They were aware of the problem on arrival and briefed the passengers. The question isn't about a problem that's unknown. It's about a known problem and the decision tree that follows.

The MD-11 has a kevlar plate mounted on the gear, above the center wheels, which sits aft of them when the gear is retracted. The purpose of that plate is to protect hydraulic lines and the reversible motor pumps from damage or destruction in the event of a wheel failure. Without them, a tire failure on the ground or in the well could very easily result in another sioux city event. Loss of all three systems.

A tire may have punctured the underside of the aircraft, penetrated a fuel cell, damaged hydraulics. To know of a problem, have a runway nearby and the chance to return before fuel becomes fire, before a hydraulic loss occurs, or any number of other problems develop, and not take advantage of that runway may be to throw away the only shot.

The UPS 6 crew that departed Dubai and got an inflight fire, was abeam Doha when the airplane began to burn. They could have put in at Doha and survived; the timeline would have allowed it. Instead, they tried to turn back to Dubai and didn't make it. The notion of continuing along one's way after that tire failure (it's just a tire...what could go wrong, right?) sounds innocuous enough. What's that folks say about assumptions?

rickair7777
03-04-2018, 07:00 AM
All good points. I'm trying to be agnostic and not second-guess the crew in the news article, since I don't know what they did or didn't know. As others pointed out, they may have found out about the tire via ACARS from company an hour after airport ops removed the debris from the runway. Sounds like potentially different logic depending on what/when you know or don't know, and what's waiting for you at the destination.

742Dash
03-05-2018, 09:50 AM
From the Boeing Flight Crew Training Manual (747), page 8.25:

Tire Failure during or after Takeoff:

"...The crew should consider continuing to the destination unless there is an indication that other damage has occurred...."

"Continuing to the destination will allow the airplane weight to be reduced normally, and provide the crew an opportunity to plan and coordinate their arrival and landing when the workload is low."

JohnBurke
03-05-2018, 10:09 AM
MD-11 TIRE FAIL (FCOM)

DO NOT RETRACT LANDING GEAR
DO NOT USE ABS FOR BRAKING

[BEFORE TAKEOFF ROLL]
Do not take off.
Reject or continue takeoff, depending on conditions.
Note: At speeds in excess of V1-20, consider continuing takeoff. Stopping performance is degraded with tire failure.

[LANDING GEAR EXTENDED]
Do not retract landing gear.
When ready to land:
Gross Weight: REDUCE AS REQUIRED
AUTO BRAKE Selector: OFF

[END]

Airbum
03-11-2018, 02:14 PM
John, I agree with you on the blown tire issues. But then I'm on the MD-11 and don't remember the 747 procedures.

[QUOTE=JohnBurke;2542413]
The UPS 6 crew that departed Dubai and got an inflight fire, was abeam Doha when the airplane began to burn. They could have put in at Doha and survived; the timeline would have allowed it. Instead, they tried to turn back to Dubai and didn't make it. [/QUOT


Side note on UPS Flight #6

I do not believe there was time to land from 32,000 ft and 100 miles to Doha.

Finding #59 states, “Captain made a comment mentioning the high cockpit temperature, almost immediately the Captains oxygen supply abruptly stopped without warning, this occurred seven minutes six seconds after the first Main Deck Fire Warning.”

Findings #63 and 64 state, “The oxygen requirement of the Captain became critical, the Captain removes the oxygen mask and separate smoke goggles and leaves the seat to look for the supplementary oxygen. The Captain did not return

In 2 minutes 40 seconds from the first indication of Fire the Captain reports there is no pitch control of the aircraft.

The Captain was dead in 7 minutes and 6 seconds after his 02 Mask failed from burned through lines.

The FO continued to make control inputs until the end. The control column was fully aft when the flight recorder data ended, there was no corresponding elevator movement

may they RIP and the rest of us learn.

Adlerdriver
03-11-2018, 03:59 PM
From the Boeing Flight Crew Training Manual (747), page 8.25:

Tire Failure during or after Takeoff:

"...The crew should consider continuing to the destination unless there is an indication that other damage has occurred...."

"Continuing to the destination will allow the airplane weight to be reduced normally, and provide the crew an opportunity to plan and coordinate their arrival and landing when the workload is low."
777 Flight manual at FedEx which I'm sure is essentially a subset of the Boeing manual has the exact same language. However, there is no "Tire Failure" audible warning or associated EICAS message (like the MD-11). Just "Tire Pressure" which has no associated consequences warranting any significant deviation from normal ops.

Maybe MacD just took a potential high speed tire failure more seriously or there is something inherent with the MD gear that makes it a bigger deal on that jet - idk. Boeing certainly doesn't seem to give it much concern from what I can see.

I think Boeing's guidance is milquetoast at best and leaves an awful lot to luck. Sure, the concept of using your gas instead of fuel jettison is valid. But, unless you are unaware of the blown tire, how does anyone get to the point of retracting the gear after takeoff if they knew they blew one on the roll?

"an indication that other damage has occurred" is pretty vague criteria.

A cut hyd-line is probably going to make itself known pretty quickly, but what about other issues?

What indications are there going to be if flying tire parts have damaged flight control surfaces or gear doors?

Is this a FOD event (a.k.a. Concorde) with potential damage beyond what tire rubber can do?

What indications are there going to be to suspect if retraction or eventual extension is going to be hampered by such damage?

Short of getting a chase ship, there's not going to be any way to be certain of the situation. So, in that case, why would anyone assume the best case scenario?

I guess as I've gotten older and hopefully a little wiser, I usually ask myself if pressing the situation, limits, duty issues, fatigue, whatever is really worth it.

JohnBurke
03-11-2018, 09:18 PM
You've got to ask what caused that tire to fail, and what did that do to the rest of the truck? To the engines? To the structure? To tilt? Slow leak out there, insufficient to activate a hydraulic fuse? When the tire failed, what did it do to the other wheels on that axle, or truck? Increased load, increased temperature. Going to put the gear up and have one fail in the well? Pieces hanging off? is the tilt going to be a problem, and is indication and logic going to function if something just catastrophically failed down there?

Once more; we're talking about a known or suspected tire failure.

Various aircraft have interlocks that prevent raising the gear; "safety" catches, releases, solenoids, etc, which prevent raising the gear unless certain conditions are met. Most have checklists under abnormal or otherwise which allow bypassing the gear safety lock.

Doing so is not always the right choice. Nor is raising the gear with a known gear tire failure.

FlyJSH
03-13-2018, 09:06 PM
Once more; we're talking about a known or suspected tire failure.




Again, I will point out that while the crew new about the blown tire prior to landing, I have yet to see that they knew of the failure prior to gear retraction. (If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please present it, and I will gladly retract all my comments).

And even if they had known about the failure which probably occurred at or at least near V1, most of us are so triggered to positive rate, gear up, rig the aircraft to survive the engine failure, that a blown tire around V1 is outside of our normal survival priorities.

Again, I have no idea what they did or didn't know at the time of failure.

But while every six months I rehearsed a V1 cut, I NEVER was given an 80 knots tire blows scenario. How often during a before take off brief do you include a part about tire failure at/near V1?

JohnBurke
03-14-2018, 06:15 AM
Again, I will point out that while the crew new about the blown tire prior to landing, I have yet to see that they knew of the failure prior to gear retraction. (If anyone has evidence to the contrary, please present it, and I will gladly retract all my comments).


Other than the statements in the original article linked at the outset of this thread?

"When we were taking off out of Newark, the plane kind of shuddered as the nose lifted. After that, everything was fine. About 90 minutes before we landed, the crew came out, made sure everyone was awake. Told us we were going to have a problem with the landing gear and to prepare for the worst," Kyle Hobbs says.


Did they guess? Did the passengers know something the crew did not? Did someone with a really big set of binoculars figure it out enroute and tell them? They didn't know at the time, but put two and two together enroute?

The central theme here does not regard damage about which one does not know. The question is asked whether one brings up the gear and continues, with a known problem.


And even if they had known about the failure which probably occurred at or at least near V1, most of us are so triggered to positive rate, gear up, rig the aircraft to survive the engine failure, that a blown tire around V1 is outside of our normal survival priorities.


Are you actually going to suggest that as crew members we fly without thought or reason, and simply do things based on reaction? When we specifically train NOT to do that, when millions are spent focusing on the decision on the runway, a crew simply mindlessly acts and can't be expected to do otherwise, because the usual thing is to raise the gear? God help the passengers flying behind such a crew. Clearly, because the crew won't, or can't.

Are we really so stupid that we simply proceed because something is routine? Good clarion call for unmanned cockpits, then, isn't it?



But while every six months I rehearsed a V1 cut, I NEVER was given an 80 knots tire blows scenario. How often during a before take off brief do you include a part about tire failure at/near V1?

You've never been given a failed tire on takeoff on a V1 cut or in the high speed regime? I don't believe I've ever been to a training program or course of training, be it recurrent or initial, that didn't include a tire failure. I had one in a simulator just a few days ago.

How often do I brief events prior to V1? Before every takeoff. While one may continue with a failed tire, and in most cases is best advised to do so, retracting the gear on a failed tire is another matter.

Adlerdriver
03-14-2018, 12:47 PM
And even if they had known about the failure which probably occurred at or at least near V1, most of us are so triggered to positive rate, gear up, rig the aircraft to survive the engine failure, that a blown tire around V1 is outside of our normal survival priorities.
I'll have to second JB's comments. From my early days of USAF UPT, a known gear problem on takeoff with normal thrust available was always handled the same way. Leave the gear handle alone, at least for starters. That hasn't changed for me over the last 30 years.

I don't understand why someone who manages to determine they blew a tire on takeoff would "rig the aircraft to survive" an engine failure that hasn't actually occurred.

But while every six months I rehearsed a V1 cut, I NEVER was given an 80 knots tire blows scenario. How often during a before take off brief do you include a part about tire failure at/near V1?Every airline I've worked for (including my current) has had a set of standards that apply to takeoff decisions. This alleviates the need to address every possible contingency during every takeoff briefing. Also, since the normal plan is to takeoff and a high speed tire failure is normally handled by continuing the takeoff, what's there to brief? Are we going to talk about every contingency that still results in continuing the takeoff? There's a pretty small list of events that require a high speed reject (i.e. a deviation from the normal plan to get airborne). Tire failure isn't one of them.

Tire failure audible warnings (if equipped) are most likely inhibited in the high speed regime during takeoff to help support the go decision. There are numerous reasons that support taking a high speed tire failure airborne but very few that would then support immediate gear retraction.

I don't know the specifics about this crew's knowledge immediately after takeoff or their decision process. I thinks it's entirely possible they didn't know anything about the tire during and after takeoff. Passengers sitting over the gear probably had more immediate cues of an issue than the crew did which is probably what's leading to the media's second guessing approach in the article. Most aircraft these days have a gear page that shows tire pressures, brake temps, etc. The most likely scenario, IMO, is the crew was either alerted enroute via tower observation, tire parts on the runway or a routine systems check of the gear page.

Packrat
03-14-2018, 01:00 PM
Had a similar incident on the 737-400 MMGL to LAX. We didn't blow the tire, but threw the tire cap. Never knew about it until I was doing the walk around in LAX and spotted a skid mark on the fuselage by the R2 door.

I wondered how that got there until I saw the tire minus all the tread. When we asked the F/As if they heard anything on takeoff they said one passenger mentioned it but only spoke Spanish so they weren't sure what he was talking about.

The shredded tire cap did some damage the flaps. Aircraft was out of service for 3 or 4 days. The Captain and I had no idea anything happened until we caught it visually.

Airhoss
03-16-2018, 07:28 PM
I am NOT Monday-morning QB-ing this crew (even though it's Monday morning).

But wanted to hear other's philosophical thoughts on continuing a transcon after a tire blow-out on T/O. As opposed to overweight LDG, or burning/dumping fuel near the departure field or other suitable divert site.

I'm *assuming* they knew they had an issue since they prepped the pax for a rough LDG.




https://www.cbsnews.com/news/united-airlines-plane-blows-tire-on-takeoff-keeps-going-lands-safely-portland-oregon/


Either way you've got to land. Might as well land at destination without all the drama of burning off three hours of fuel to get to landing weight. If you were not initially aware of a blown tire and the gear is already in the hole before you became aware why wouldn't you continue to destination?

Flightcap
03-17-2018, 02:14 PM
If a crew knows the gear is messed up and proceeds to try to retract it, that in my humble opinion is a serious error in judgment.

The E-170 has a solenoid to prevent gear handle movement when weight-on-wheels. It also has a push button to override the PSEM (Proximity Sensor Electronic Module - determines gear position and integrity) and release the solenoid in case the unthinkable happens and you need to retract the gear to clear a mountain but the PSEM won't let you. All of our abnormal checklists say "only press the PSEM override when required for obstacle clearance."

A few years ago my company had a takeoff from a flatlands airport in Texas in which the PSEM decided not to release the solenoid. The crew pushed the button and got that annoying gear lever to move, then proceeded to their East Coast destination. Surprise surprise, the gear wouldn't properly extend when they got there..........

That being said if the crew only finds out about a gear issue after retraction, I can understand continuing to destination if the route has plenty of safe landing sites, no abnormal indications, above landing weight to return to field, etc.

Gnaw
03-17-2018, 06:16 PM
Either way you've got to land. Might as well land at destination without all the drama of burning off three hours of fuel to get to landing weight. If you were not initially aware of a blown tire and the gear is already in the hole before you became aware why wouldn't you continue to destination?

What if there are ragged chunks of rubber hanging from a shredded tire.
It's possible that when retracted into the wheel well, they snag/damage some wiring or hydraulic lines they wouldn't normally touch. It a reason to at least consider staying nearby.

Flightcap
03-17-2018, 06:27 PM
Well we would probably figure it out pretty quickly on the E-170 because cables for the aileron actuators run exposed through the wheel wells.......:eek:

Airhoss
03-18-2018, 07:42 AM
What if there are ragged chunks of rubber hanging from a shredded tire.
It's possible that when retracted into the wheel well, they snag/damage some wiring or hydraulic lines they wouldn't normally touch. It a reason to at least consider staying nearby.

I guess you didnít read my post,

Gnaw
03-18-2018, 05:33 PM
I guess you didnít read my post,

I read what you wrote. You asked a question and I provided a response to that question... just thinking of what I'd hope to consider if this happened to me.

Airhoss
03-18-2018, 08:32 PM
I read what you wrote. You asked a question and I provided a response to that question... just thinking of what I'd hope to consider if this happened to me.

Try reading it again. Based on an event that I had happen and as I said. We didn’t know the tire had blown until we contacted departure. So the gear was already up when we found out about it. You guys are all making the assumption that you’ll know if a tire blows on take off. It isn’t always that apparent or obvious on the flight deck.

In that case you might as well continue on if there are no other issues. If you know the tire blew then obviously don’t put the gear up.

JohnBurke
03-19-2018, 09:07 AM
Try reading it again. Based on an event that I had happen and as I said. We didnít know the tire had blown until we contacted departure. So the gear was already up when we found out about it. You guys are all making the assumption that youíll know if a tire blows on take off. It isnít always that apparent or obvious on the flight deck.

In that case you might as well continue on if there are no other issues. If you know the tire blew then obviously donít put the gear up.

It's been said many times; if one doesn't know the tire or wheel has failed, then it's irrelevant.

The question regards sucking up the gear after a known failure.

Airhoss
03-19-2018, 09:35 AM
It's been said many times; if one doesn't know the tire or wheel has failed, then it's irrelevant.

The question regards sucking up the gear after a known failure.

Distinctly covered in my statement. But thanks for the heads up.

Gnaw
03-19-2018, 04:06 PM
Try reading it again. Based on an event that I had happen and as I said. We didnít know the tire had blown until we contacted departure. So the gear was already up when we found out about it. You guys are all making the assumption that youíll know if a tire blows on take off. It isnít always that apparent or obvious on the flight deck.

In that case you might as well continue on if there are no other issues. If you know the tire blew then obviously donít put the gear up.

What we have here is failure to communicate, so here it is again.

You:
"Either way you've got to land. Might as well land at destination without all the drama of burning off three hours of fuel to get to landing weight. If you were not initially aware of a blown tire and the gear is already in the hole before you became aware why wouldn't you continue to destination?"

Me:
"What if there are ragged chunks of rubber hanging from a shredded tire.
It's possible that when retracted into the wheel well, they snag/damage some wiring or hydraulic lines they wouldn't normally touch. It a reason to at least consider staying nearby."


Now you are starting to add qualifiers:

"In that case you might as well continue on if there are no other issues"

That was exactly what I said in my first post... what if other things are damaged by the gear that was put up into the wheel well.

Airhoss
03-19-2018, 09:29 PM
What we have here is failure to communicate, so here it is again.

You:
"Either way you've got to land. Might as well land at destination without all the drama of burning off three hours of fuel to get to landing weight. If you were not initially aware of a blown tire and the gear is already in the hole before you became aware why wouldn't you continue to destination?"

Me:
"What if there are ragged chunks of rubber hanging from a shredded tire.
It's possible that when retracted into the wheel well, they snag/damage some wiring or hydraulic lines they wouldn't normally touch. It a reason to at least consider staying nearby."


Now you are starting to add qualifiers:

"In that case you might as well continue on if there are no other issues"

That was exactly what I said in my first post... what if other things are damaged by the gear that was put up into the wheel well.

Iím glad that we got this straightened out. The world is now a safer place.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1