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queue
02-27-2018, 12:32 PM
JetBlue Might Add Basic Economy Fares | Travel + Leisure (http://www.travelandleisure.com/travel-news/jetblue-might-add-basic-economy)

Looks like our glorious CEO in all of his MBA lack-of-brains has found another way to screw us and the company. Notice how he has done absolutely nothing that is innovative or an actual improvement. About the only thing his regime has done even moderately successfully is On Time Performance (deskewed for weather). We need the Union to write the board slamming the CEO citing a loss of confidence in him (for starters). The only thing this guy knows how to do is pinch pennies.

If this goes through, there ought to be an internal revolt to have BJ dump its "core values", which are all Mgmt 101 BS anyway. However, now they need to remove it from the PR standpoint as well. How are the FAs going to police who doesn't get snacks or overhead space? Is BJ going to put stars on their shoulder or something to denote a lower class?

Another embarrassing moment brought to you by someone who is not very intelligent.


GuppyPuppy
02-27-2018, 12:48 PM
A big red 'A' on their outergarment.

GP

CaptCoolHand
02-27-2018, 12:48 PM
Dude... we're dead last in OTP... last.


Bluedriver
02-27-2018, 12:59 PM
Dude... we're dead last in OTP... last.

Strange, I *AGREE* with you.

queue
02-27-2018, 01:12 PM
Dude... we're dead last in OTP... last.

I know but their OTP program is solid, despite these temporary hickups. At least they are doing process engineering. The alternative is disastrous. 10% of their effort even includes a feedback loop although, it's only 10% of the way there. I suspect the OTP people are being hindered massively by middle management, who are afraid of statistics that make them look bad.

Under better environmental scenarios, OTP could really shine. For example, I've always felt they need to empower us to be process managers (for compensation of course). If they paid us what we are worth, and if our work rules were employee friendly, there is a large population of pilots at BJ that could easily outdo all these flunky hipster MBAs at HQ. I have anecdotally observed a much higher population of pilots with real leadership traits compared to executives and other managers at BJ. The people in power at BJ are the wrong people... they are managers (MBAs), BUREAUCRATS - you know, the same winners that manage our government institutions like the Dept of Veterans Affairs. All they are capable of is managing an existing process. They cannot innovative as they do not have the requisite knowledge or personality of an entrepreneur. In order to lead, you must be able to innovate, which requires more than simple management 101 knowledge/skills. This is why Robin is even allowing this ghetto class seating to even be entertained. They are literally out of ideas.

CaptCoolHand
02-27-2018, 01:23 PM
Strange, I *AGREE* with you.

We agree on most things. I think we just disagree on how to get there.

But what a positive spin you put on that post!

CaptCoolHand
02-27-2018, 01:28 PM
I disagree with the first paragraph. OTP was DOA... The second they started boarding 5 early and scheduling 35min turns. OTP was based on Blue sky, zero hic up, never fail, no break down, unicorn farts and pixie dust magic. I need a savety time out.

I know but their OTP program is solid, despite these temporary hickups. At least they are doing process engineering. The alternative is disastrous. 10% of their effort even includes a feedback loop although, it's only 10% of the way there. I suspect the OTP people are being hindered massively by middle management, who are afraid of statistics that make them look bad.

Under better environmental scenarios, OTP could really shine. For example, I've always felt they need to empower us to be process managers (for compensation of course). If they paid us what we are worth, and if our work rules were employee friendly, there is a large population of pilots at BJ that could easily outdo all these flunky hipster MBAs at HQ. I have anecdotally observed a much higher population of pilots with real leadership traits compared to executives and other managers at BJ. The people in power at BJ are the wrong people... they are managers (MBAs), BUREAUCRATS - you know, the same winners that manage our government institutions like the Dept of Veterans Affairs. All they are capable of is managing an existing process. They cannot innovative as they do not have the requisite knowledge or personality of an entrepreneur. In order to lead, you must be able to innovate, which requires more than simple management 101 knowledge/skills. This is why Robin is even allowing this ghetto class seating to even be entertained. They are literally out of ideas.

Rabid Seagull
02-27-2018, 01:30 PM
Just another day that confirms JB is run by idiots and interns.

rvr1800
02-27-2018, 01:41 PM
Wasnít Mint Robinís idea? While Iíve lost all my confidence in this management you gotta give credit where itís due. That has made us a lot of money.

say again
02-27-2018, 01:45 PM
Wasnít Mint Robinís idea? While Iíve lost all my confidence in this management you gotta give credit where itís due. That has made us a lot of money.

C'mon man! You know you can't say anything positive about JB on here. :D Even a broken clock is correct twice.

django
02-27-2018, 01:46 PM
Q is not that I disagree with you but...with reasonable typing skills everyone is a CEO.

Perhaps you have an MBA. Or perhaps managing as an officer in military has given you excellent skills. The VP of Flight Ops is opened...

aldonite7667
02-27-2018, 01:57 PM
Wasnít Mint Robinís idea? While Iíve lost all my confidence in this management you gotta give credit where itís due. That has made us a lot of money.


Business class on transcon.... heís not exactly Thomas Edison.

say again
02-27-2018, 02:06 PM
Business class on transcon.... heís not exactly Thomas Edison.

Yeah, I don't think he said that he invented it. Someone had to pull the trigger to get it here. I'll give him the one positive...

queue
02-27-2018, 02:57 PM
I disagree with the first paragraph. OTP was DOA... The second they started boarding 5 early and scheduling 35min turns. OTP was based on Blue sky, zero hic up, never fail, no break down, unicorn farts and pixie dust magic. I need a savety time out.

Thatís what Iím saying... the process is sound but the business objectives are unrealistic. In process design thatís called slack. Iím quite sure that the business objectives did not allow very little or any slack. Or, they made a conscious decision to accept a higher rate of predictable loss.

queue
02-27-2018, 02:59 PM
Wasnít Mint Robinís idea? While Iíve lost all my confidence in this management you gotta give credit where itís due. That has made us a lot of money.

Iím pretty sure first class was invented a long time ago. :)

queue
02-27-2018, 03:31 PM
Q is not that I disagree with you but...with reasonable typing skills everyone is a CEO.

Perhaps you have an MBA. Or perhaps managing as an officer in military has given you excellent skills. The VP of Flight Ops is opened...


I wouldnít want to be the first mate on the Titanic simply to rearrange the deck chairs. I wouldnít take anything less than Robinís spot. I couldnít deal with all those yes-men who have no idea how to innovate.

I really think they need to look to Silicon Valley or the tech sector and hire one of those really smart nerds that flunked out of some fancy school but is strongly multidisciplined in science, technology, engineering, or math but has also some business sense (which is easy). I personally donít care about all those fancy titles behind somebodyís name. The aviation industry isnít exactly rocket science. Believe me, there are some really smart people out there. Look at ...

Elon Musk

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/17/17019796/where-is-roadster-website-tesla-spacex-elon-musk-falcon-heavy

Jeff Bezos

https://news.vice.com/article/jeff-bezos-now-has-an-amazon-airline-too

Paul Allen

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/05/31/paul-allen-just-rolled-out-the-worlds-largest-airplane-and-he-ready-to-take-on-the-rocket-makers/?utm_term=.544ca8410bb0

Even the kid that became a millionaire with bitcoin!

This high-school dropout who invested in bitcoin at $12 is now a millionaire at 18 (https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/20/bitcoin-millionaire-erik-finman-says-going-to-college-isnt-worth-it.html)

These are just the ones that are most famous...

Now these men are leaders....not simple shift managers who have put JB into the emergency descent itís in now. I donít even think half these guys have MBAs so I doubt they will meet JetBlueís ďhigh standardsĒ.

rvr1800
02-27-2018, 03:46 PM
C'mon man! You know you can't say anything positive about JB on here. :D Even a broken clock is correct twice.

Well we donít know if itís a positive or negative post. Bluedriver hasnít let us know yet.

rvr1800
02-27-2018, 03:54 PM
Business class on transcon.... he’s not exactly Thomas Edison.

I’m pretty sure first class was invented a long time ago. :)

First off, queue, try to keep up with the threads you start. Aldonite posted that almost an hour before you. Even used an “inventor” in his post.

Secondly, as Say Again posted, I never said he invented first class. But he did bring it to an all economy class airline and it is very successful. I’ll give him credit for that. Lately I give him zero credit.

queue
02-27-2018, 04:02 PM
First off, queue, try to keep up with the threads you start. Aldonite posted that almost an hour before you. Even used an ďinventorĒ in his post.

Secondly, as Say Again posted, I never said he invented first class. But he did bring it to an all economy class airline and it is very successful. Iíll give him credit for that. Lately I give him zero credit.

I missed his post.

So other than enlarging his golden parachute or making money for shareholders (see my post https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/111495-myth-fiduciary-responsibility.html, and my other one with case law), he has accomplished little. Didnít SWA pilotís union send a letter of no confidence to Gary Kelly? Maybe we can find a way to replace all these ineffective middle and upper beaurocrats with real leaders?

queue
02-27-2018, 04:43 PM
Neelemen didnít finish skool?

Why Your MBA Is Worthless (https://www.inc.com/john-nemo/why-your-mba-is-worthless.html)

Andy
02-27-2018, 04:50 PM
Just another day that confirms JB is run by idiots and interns.

That's the case with all airlines. The reason? the airline industry pays below average wages to management. Anyone who's competent jumps ship to a higher paying industry.

queue
02-27-2018, 05:02 PM
That's the case with all airlines. The reason? the airline industry pays below average wages to management. Anyone who's competent jumps ship to a higher paying industry.

Robin Hayes compensation (https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=44431670&privcapId=106437)

pilotpayne
02-27-2018, 05:17 PM
First off, queue, try to keep up with the threads you start. Aldonite posted that almost an hour before you. Even used an ďinventorĒ in his post.

Secondly, as Say Again posted, I never said he invented first class. But he did bring it to an all economy class airline and it is very successful. Iíll give him credit for that. Lately I give him zero credit.

I think he was the one that pushed for it which was a radical change from anything we have done. Yeah big deal business class but it was a fundamental change for the direction of the company.

Mint has had a major impact on the market and most of Wall Street said it would fail. Now they can use that product to go across the pond.

Flyby and I talked about this, with the fleet review and all of this Europe talk RH is either going to look like a genius or an idiot.

I had high hopes for RH as well but I donít think he is nearly as good of a communicator as the 2 Daveís. Maybe he has a plan maybe but they sure donít talk about it.

Problem is that leaves an informational vacuum and that will be filled with something and I think we are seeing that now. Not good

pilotpayne
02-27-2018, 05:20 PM
I disagree with the first paragraph. OTP was DOA... The second they started boarding 5 early and scheduling 35min turns. OTP was based on Blue sky, zero hic up, never fail, no break down, unicorn farts and pixie dust magic. I need a savety time out.

Hey I got the answer to OTP......release the freaking PB.
We could board 5 hours early and following SOP from the company we can still be late. Ironic they take the on time out of the control of us and give it to.......wait for it......wait......ATC.......:rolleyes:

Bluedriver
02-27-2018, 06:15 PM
C'mon man! You know you can't say anything positive about JB on here. :D Even a broken clock is correct twice.

The saying is a broken clock is right twice *a day*. But, your way is much more accurate about JETBLUE. I *AGREE* with you.

Bluedriver
02-27-2018, 06:17 PM
Business class on transcon.... heís not exactly Thomas Edison.

Laughing my A off. So true. I *AGREE* with you sir and awarded you many points!

django
02-28-2018, 01:00 AM
The thing that amazes me about my colleagues is an unfailing ability to overestimate their abilities ....

Andy
02-28-2018, 03:12 AM
Robin Hayes compensation (https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/people/person.asp?personId=44431670&privcapId=106437)

Link didn't work for me, but if you think the average CEO salary of a company the size of JBLU gets paid a bit more than $3M/yr, you're in for a rude awakening and won't want to look at my link. Keep in mind that's 2013-2014 salaries in my link.

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/gsb/files/publication-pdf/cgri-quick-guide-17-ceo-compensation-data.pdf

The salary gap is at all levels of airline management, and is the reason why all airlines are stuck with mediocre management. The talented managers can walk into compensation packages in other industries that are at least double what airlines pay. But I guess the 2.3 GPA MBA grads have to go somewhere.

queue
02-28-2018, 05:34 AM
Link didn't work for me, but if you think the average CEO salary of a company the size of JBLU gets paid a bit more than $3M/yr, you're in for a rude awakening and won't want to look at my link. Keep in mind that's 2013-2014 salaries in my link.

https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/sites/gsb/files/publication-pdf/cgri-quick-guide-17-ceo-compensation-data.pdf

The salary gap is at all levels of airline management, and is the reason why all airlines are stuck with mediocre management. The talented managers can walk into compensation packages in other industries that are at least double what airlines pay. But I guess the 2.3 GPA MBA grads have to go somewhere.


Or is it the recruitment and hiring system is too formulaic and administered to a certain template?

Sure... I would look at advanced degrees more favorably but I wouldnít limit to that. I wouldnít want a professional student. Also I wouldnít discriminate by age or experience necessarily. My primary criteria would be: what have you learned (technical and philosophical), and what have you done with it. This would firstly eliminate the people who are professional managers. For example, I wouldnít want to get an executive or CEO type because they donít actually do anything themselves. Itís usually a subordinate that has a great idea and does the actual implementation.

As much as I detest Facebook, it can be used as a case study of a personality. Zuckerberg created something himself with a college friend. He had a technical knowledge and the innate business sense to intuitively understand what people would want in a product. Clearly age is not a discriminator nor is experience.

Steve Jobs was not someone to be considered as an academic but again he certainly had certain intuitive characteristics that propelled Apple the way it did. He was everything that you learned not to be in management 101. He was abrasive towards everyone and didnít really care about the bottom line. He was also a micromanager and got involved in everything. However I think the results are indisputable. He had a perfectionist attitude that didnít limit him to his formal education of English literature. Although he was not the primary technical guy of Apple in the beginning (Wozniak was), he certainly was very technically adept. What he didnít know he learned. But he was also an artist and demanded that every product they made be a work of art which is why when you open an iPhone box, itís an experience. He treated people like garbage when they didnít perform. I would imagine he would shoot 3/4 of JetBlue management if he was the CEO! Most importantly, he was a principled idealist. He didnít necessarily do things for the money although he intuitively understood that they could make a boatload of money if his design principles were followed. He was right about everything.

Robin makes $500k base pay and $3M with benefits and options. Certainly heís not as well-paid as other CEOs but Iíve always felt executive compensation is too high anyways for what you get out of it. I have no doubt that at that price point, thereís probably someone that just (barely) graduated college with a 2.5 gpa and is another Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk. More compensation can always be tied to results. When I was in high school, there was this guy in our senior class who was an absolutely horrible student. However, one of the last classes that we took was one where we designed a product using all of the science and technology education that we had. Naturally the 4.0s did nothing of significance. However, this D student, who loved cars, learned enough in this science based high school to design and create a universal CV joint which he had always wanted to do as a hobby. Right after he barely graduated high school, he was hired directly into an executive position at General Motors. The rest of us got ripped off in college. This is an example that is one in million, but it just goes to exemplify that certain personality types will persevere regardless of the limitations life places on them.

I have met many JetBlue pilots that have the right stuff to immediately be in management and to show immediate results. Of course they hate pilots because JB is locked in a petty wages battle so they canít use this untapped resource.

Ted Striker
02-28-2018, 05:47 AM
This just means another revenue stream for Jetblue = More money = More profit sharing for employees...... oh wait never mind :mad:

django
02-28-2018, 06:13 AM
So to put it in perspective ...
If the CEO is paid 500gs plus the bonuses of 3mil.
And a CA earns 220 a year as a project manager .
Based on responsibility and time spent at the job, who is better off ?

atrdriver
02-28-2018, 06:37 AM
So to put it in perspective ...
If the CEO is paid 500gs plus the bonuses of 3mil.
And a CA earns 220 a year as a project manager .
Based on responsibility and time spent at the job, who is better off ?

Who is better off? The 320 CA earning 300+ at DL/UA.

To put it in perspective, do you work at LSC or OSC? Just wondering.

CaptCoolHand
02-28-2018, 06:58 AM
So to put it in perspective ...
If the CEO is paid 500gs plus the bonuses of 3mil.
And a CA earns 220 a year as a project manager .
Based on responsibility and time spent at the job, who is better off ?

Well if weíre talking about responsibility. generally if a CEO screws the pooch, 200+ lives donít go up in a flaming plume of meat confetti.

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 07:26 AM
Well if weíre talking about responsibility. generally if a CEO screws the pooch, 200+ lives donít go up in a flaming plume of meat confetti.

I *AGREE* with you. Plus, aren't JB pilots asked to act like "franchise owners"?

queue
02-28-2018, 07:27 AM
Well if we’re talking about responsibility. generally if a CEO screws the pooch, 200+ lives don’t go up in a flaming plume of meat confetti.

Also the knowledge requirement is significantly higher for a pilot than for a CEO. A CEO largely outsources expertise such as law and engineering. The really good CEOs are multi-disciplined (e.g. all the guys I mentioned before), but that isn't the norm. Most CEOs are just managers with subordinates doing the real thinking, innovation, and execution.

Pilots have to be experts (lawyers) in a large range of things that literally prints out to be a 26+ volume encyclopedia Britannica.

- 14 CFR (including Part 91, 25, 121, 135, etc.)
- OpSpecs
- FOM
- FCOM 1
- FCOM 2
- Various manuals such as WX Radar manual, FMS manual, etc.
- AIM
- ICAO regulations
- Jepp Airway Manual
- FAA Aviation Circulars
- FAA case law
- Meteorology
- Countless procedural ammendments through Comply 365.
- TSA regulations such as Inflight Security Coordinator.
- HAZMAT (will not carry) regulations
(and of course the 4 yr programs you might have gone through with an aviation university or military training)

Of course, that is just what you do now. Certainly the magnitude of information multiplies with each employer you've had. Your lifelong aviation education is substantially bigger and all necessary to the professional you are now. Remember guys like Sully had an education from flying gliders to dealing with emergencies in fighter jets.

Potentially any one of the fine-print subnotes on a single chart in an obscure manual on a single page buried amongst 10's of thousands of pages could result in an incident or catastrophe.

We have a profession that is exact, precise, and technical. It's not an art. Art allows for great deviation and extremely high error rates. We have a mission critical occupation and this is mostly why our level of responsibility is so high. Whether you fly a 9 seat private jet or a 200 seat A321, the element of mission critical is the same.

So yes, a CEO can screw the pooch all day and no one dies. We have a bad day and lots of people can pay for it.

http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/fn-latino/lifestyle/0/0/britannica.jpg

django
02-28-2018, 08:59 AM
Again with the overstating Our position by way of hyperbole wonít further the cause.

But it is fun to see yíall going at it

django
02-28-2018, 09:01 AM
But more to the point. We risk manage. Plain and simple. Complex and complicated.

django
02-28-2018, 09:02 AM
And q it is an art to be an aviator as well as a science.

queue
02-28-2018, 09:09 AM
And q it is an art to be an aviator as well as a science.

The laws of physics must be different for such exceptional aviators such as yourself. You must also throw out all the manuals and regulations quite often.

queue
02-28-2018, 09:10 AM
Again with the overstating Our position by way of hyperbole wonít further the cause.

But it is fun to see yíall going at it

Care to qualify your statements?

Bluedriver
02-28-2018, 09:16 AM
Again with the overstating Our position by way of hyperbole wonít further the cause.

But it is fun to see yíall going at it

You sound pretty awesome, not gonna lie.

django
02-28-2018, 10:01 AM
Folks is all in fun..
But all kidding aside art and science are one when seen a high level.

queue
02-28-2018, 10:47 AM
Folks is all in fun..
But all kidding aside art and science are one when seen a high level.

Django, flying is serious business. Here's what happens when you are lackadaisical about flying.

Southwest Plane's Nose Gear Landed First, NTSB Says - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/southwest-planes-nose-gear-landed-ntsb/story?id=19779137)

Pilots Didnít Want to Fly With Capt. Who Crash-Landed SW Flight 345 (https://blog.seattlepi.com/flyinglessons/2014/11/11/pilots-didnt-want-to-fly-with-capt-who-crash-landed-sw-flight-345/)



Thankfully she got fired for gross procedural violations and no one died. It sounds like she wasn't well studied in all those reference materials I mentioned beforehand.

If you want to be artsy, amaze the passengers with your stand up cabin announcements.

We are professionals.

https://nxnwboise.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/tommyboy_243pyxurz.jpg?w=1024&h=658

Andy
02-28-2018, 12:06 PM
Django, flying is serious business. Here's what happens when you are lackadaisical about flying.

Southwest Plane's Nose Gear Landed First, NTSB Says - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/southwest-planes-nose-gear-landed-ntsb/story?id=19779137)

Pilots Didnít Want to Fly With Capt. Who Crash-Landed SW Flight 345 (https://blog.seattlepi.com/flyinglessons/2014/11/11/pilots-didnt-want-to-fly-with-capt-who-crash-landed-sw-flight-345/)

Thankfully she got fired for gross procedural violations and no one died. It sounds like she wasn't well studied in all those reference materials I mentioned beforehand.

If you want to be artsy, amaze the passengers with your stand up cabin announcements.

We are professionals.

LOL! You guys can underplay the importance of a CEO when it comes to salary, but this thread prior to my comment was bashing your management. Again, all airlines' management sucks. It's because airlines do not pay comparable salaries with other industries. So airlines end up with management much like the SWA Captain who landed nosegear first.

You guys can argue how much more important pilots are to airlines than CEOs, but a couple of really bad CEOs in a row can put an airline into Chapter 7.

aldonite7667
02-28-2018, 12:41 PM
LOL! You guys can underplay the importance of a CEO when it comes to salary, but this thread prior to my comment was bashing your management. Again, all airlines' management sucks. It's because airlines do not pay comparable salaries with other industries. So airlines end up with management much like the SWA Captain who landed nosegear first.

You guys can argue how much more important pilots are to airlines than CEOs, but a couple of really bad CEOs in a row can put an airline into Chapter 7.

Out of the two positions (pilot/CEO), if one doesnít show up to work one day no money is made for the day. Which one is it? :-)

CEOís are very important, we are all seeing just how important now. We have ineffective leadership.

django
02-28-2018, 01:53 PM
Oh mine Q,
Are you not a little judgmental. Why canít flying be both, an art and a science.
Managing a corporation is the same. You make a good lieutenant .

Andy
02-28-2018, 02:59 PM
Out of the two positions (pilot/CEO), if one doesnít show up to work one day no money is made for the day. Which one is it? :-)

CEOís are very important, we are all seeing just how important now. We have ineffective leadership.

As to your question, that is incorrect. Money will be made if neither show up; more money will be made if the pilot DOESN'T show up because the CEO ensured that the airline is properly staffed with reserves to cover pilot absences. :rolleyes:

Stop with the self-aggrandizement. Thinking that pilots are more important than CEOs is utterly laughable. All employees including CEOs are just widgets but CEOs are more valuable to an airline than pilots.

In light of other threads on this forum, this entire detour into how important pilots think they are is hysterical. When an EVP threatens to take away a pilot's travel privileges if they don't help clean the aircraft after nonreving, that should give you an idea of just how important pilots really are. Pilots are much smaller widgets than they like to think.

BeatNavy
02-28-2018, 03:03 PM
As to your question, that is incorrect. Money will be made if neither show up; more money will be made if the pilot DOESN'T show up because the CEO ensured that the airline is properly staffed with reserves to cover pilot absences. :rolleyes:

Stop with the self-aggrandizement. Thinking that pilots are more important than CEOs is utterly laughable. All employees including CEOs are just widgets but CEOs are more valuable to an airline than pilots.

In light of other threads on this forum, this entire detour into how important pilots think they are is hysterical. When an EVP threatens to take away a pilot's travel privileges if they don't help clean the aircraft after nonreving, that should give you an idea of just how important pilots really are. Pilots are much smaller widgets than they like to think.

While I see the point you are trying to make, it isnít entirely true. If pilots were ďsmall widgetsĒ then why are they paid so highly across the industry, and in such high demand? Try to operate an airline without pilots. Or with a bunch of ****ed off disgruntled pilots. Historically that hasnít worked out well.

Andy
02-28-2018, 03:12 PM
While I see the point you are trying to make, it isnít entirely true. If pilots were ďsmall widgetsĒ then why are they paid so highly across the industry, and in such high demand? Try to operate an airline without pilots. Or with a bunch of ****ed off disgruntled pilots. Historically that hasnít worked out well.

Here's the rub. Management could fire every single pilot at JBLU tomorrow and be back up and running a full schedule in less than a month. Not quite as quickly as firing every ramper, CSR, or FA but the operation would be running smoothly a lot faster than if they fired every single mid and senior manager.

When pilots think that a CEO earning $3M a year is being highly paid, it reminds me of when FAs tell pilots that they're overpaid and underworked.

I have zero desire to be a management puke, but it is amazing how no one here grasps the fact that almost all airline executives suck because they're underpaid compared to other industries. When we get a mediocre executive, he's hailed as the best executive to walk the planet because we're used to crap management.

queue
02-28-2018, 03:13 PM
As to your question, that is incorrect. Money will be made if neither show up; more money will be made if the pilot DOESN'T show up because the CEO ensured that the airline is properly staffed with reserves to cover pilot absences. :rolleyes:

Stop with the self-aggrandizement. Thinking that pilots are more important than CEOs is utterly laughable. All employees including CEOs are just widgets but CEOs are more valuable to an airline than pilots.

In light of other threads on this forum, this entire detour into how important pilots think they are is hysterical. When an EVP threatens to take away a pilot's travel privileges if they don't help clean the aircraft after nonreving, that should give you an idea of just how important pilots really are. Pilots are much smaller widgets than they like to think.

Does a hospital run without doctors? Iím not saying pilots are more important because that can be argued endlessly in so many directions, but I will say that CEOs are nothing special vs. their high cost. There is no empirical proof that CEOs are worth the price you pay for them. You simply donít know if a 21-year-old college dropout wouldnít be a better choice. In fact, accomplished history proves otherwise. You canít make the case that a CEO needs any education, skills, or experience because there have been many successful ones that have had neither starting out. A good CEO will overcome his limitations my personal drive and determination. On the other hand, you canít make a pilot overnight. In order to produce a pilot that is acceptable to this level of operation, thatís at least 10 to 20 years of education and experience. You can argue all you want but these are facts.

queue
02-28-2018, 03:16 PM
Oh mine Q,
Are you not a little judgmental. Why can’t flying be both, an art and a science.
Managing a corporation is the same. You make a good lieutenant .

You need to go hug your Trumpy Bear (http://gettrumpybear.com/). You seem to be triggered.

https://images.bonanzastatic.com/afu/images/8e53/b7fd/76eb_5546808430/__57.jpg

Andy
02-28-2018, 03:32 PM
Does a hospital run without doctors? Iím not saying pilots are more important because that can be argued endlessly in so many directions, but I will say that CEOs are nothing special vs. their high cost. There is no empirical proof that CEOs are worth the price you pay for them. You simply donít know if a 21-year-old college dropout wouldnít be a better choice. In fact, accomplished history proves otherwise. You canít make the case that a CEO needs any education, skills, or experience because there have been many successful ones that have had neither starting out. A good CEO will overcome his limitations my personal drive and determination. On the other hand, you canít make a pilot overnight. In order to produce a pilot that is acceptable to this level of operation, thatís at least 10 to 20 years of education and experience. You can argue all you want but these are facts.

LOL!
As an investor, I stay away from companies with questionable CEOs and gravitate toward those with excellent, proven CEOs. You can point to outlier CEOs but you very likely don't follow the business world. Google's hiring of Eric Schmidt played an outsized role in their growth. On the other hand, meatheads like Uber's Kalanick and Snapchat's Spiegel show how a bad CEO can run a company into the ground.

Again, a pilot's impact on an airline is miniscule in comparison to a CEO. But that's cool that you guys think the sun revolves around you. Just make sure you clean the aircraft after nonrevving. :eek:

queue
02-28-2018, 03:46 PM
In light of other threads on this forum, this entire detour into how important pilots think they are is hysterical. When an EVP threatens to take away a pilot's travel privileges if they don't help clean the aircraft after nonreving, that should give you an idea of just how important pilots really are. Pilots are much smaller widgets than they like to think.

Thank you for proving my point. JetBlue pilots are in fact much smaller widgets because they have convinced themselves of it and thus management has no reason to pay them what theyíre worth like the other airlines do. I donít blame guys for leaving to go to Southwest. At least their pilots know what theyíre worth and they fight for it. They donít wear uniforms that get commonly confused for flight attendants and they donít have to clean airplanes for no compensation.

Robin can be fired tomorrow and theyíll find some other opportunistic person to take his place. Right now JetBlue can afford to fire pilots left and right but the time will soon come where theyíre going to have to park airplanes if they donít pay pilots what they are worth. Itís a lot more difficult to make a professional pilot then it is to make a CEO. Last time I checked, all the best CEOs started with almost nothing. Consider the guy that founded JetBlue. Consider the richest companies in the world that were started in garages and dorm rooms. So you canít honestly say that Robin and all the other people like him arenít easy to find. Theyíre simple administrators and nothing more. They have not really innovated in any substantial way. JetBlue has barely had evolutionary upgrades. 50 years after first class was invented, Robin added first class to JetBlue. Itís not like he invented the Airbus aircraft or instrument flight equipment or the GPS constellation that we all navigate by.

Itís a false argument that you have to pay fortune to get a good CEO. As I have mentioned previously, the CEOs of the most successful companies in the world started with nothing. Remember that aviation was there because of inventors, engineers, and pilots, all of which were there well before any corporation or CEO exploited them for profit. No CEO was the first to perform unmanned flight, the first to break the sound barrier, and the first to get to the moon. (Werenít they all pilots?)

Youíre also limiting your scope of thinking to the paradigm of a traditional publicly traded corporation requiring a CEO, board of directors, and everyone else. JetBlue could very well be run as a private corporation with job titles such as dark overlord, court jester, water boy, and dungeon master. There is no law of physics requiring the traditional paradigm. The only legal requirement for a private company would be for the filing of a limited liability corporation (managers) and the FAA requiring you to appoint people with operational control such as the various directors (ops, MX, safety, etc). Internally you could have every employee make strategic decisions by voting on it via electronic polls. It could be a form of democratically run private corporation. Thereís literally nothing preventing a corporation from being run that way. Iím not saying that it would work, but then again Iím not saying that it wouldnít, but I am merely pointing out that you were constraining your thoughts to an established paradigm. You could probably even establish a nonprofit airline!

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/41289873/youre-not-thinking-fourth-dimensionally.jpg

queue
02-28-2018, 04:14 PM
Just make sure you clean the aircraft after nonrevving. :eek:

How did JB paying customers to snitch of Flight Attendants work out for management? I hear Robin wasn't happy about it.

Just wait till the whole cleaning issue becomes a legal issue. Let's not forget about the intangible costs of their policy. All it has done is proven once again that management is not very intelligent since they are turning employee groups against each other while disrespecting them and their professions. It wasn't an issue until they blackmailed people into it via a legal contract. It used to be many pilots wanted to help out because they are so nice.

No wonder JB has one union group on property, another just about to form, and threats of strike from other labor groups (e.g. Boston).

You have thoroughly convinced me about how special a CEO is. Now, get your IROP pants ready for that JB culture!

django
02-28-2018, 05:18 PM
Q if your statement about CEO pat is correct then the same would apply to us