Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Dick Steel
02-27-2018, 04:22 PM
Hello All, Southern Air is planning a lot of hiring in the new year. Those that may be interested may have a lot of questions about what they could expect out on the line. This is my experience so far as a 737 pilot. This purpose of the thread is to provide the good, the bad and the ugly so to speak. Any other Southern Air pilots feel free to chime in. Please stick to the facts and keep the emotions in check.

Schedules-5 airplanes. Layovers are Winnipeg, Sacramento, Kansas City, Denver and Omaha. Winnipeg and Sacramento are about 30 hours. The others can be as little as 10. Expect to do hub turns coming off of the shorter layovers.

The Good-
-Freight is easy
-Good Crews to fly with
-If you live in Cincinnati, extra nights at home
-Good Support from CP and Associates
-If the merger ever goes through with Atlas good career potential may exist

The Bad-
-No home basing
-SOC with Atlas has been delayed twice
-Commuters often need a crashpad or have to pay for a hotel room
-No jumpseat agreements with Delta or Southwest
-If you're not a resident of KY, OH or IN, there are extra tax liabilities.
-Pilot Contract for 2018 is highly unlikely
-737 has a three year equipment lock
-Hope you like night time flying

Again not trying to influence anyone as I don't know your situation. There have been times in my career where I would liked a few more facts before making a decision on changing jobs. Hopefully this thread will provide you with some insight and you can make the decision that's best for you and your family.


DC8DRIVER
02-27-2018, 06:23 PM
And don't forget:

Southern
1st year FO - $61/hr = $44,652/year
5th year FO - $77/hr = $56,364/year
12th year FO - $95/hr = $69,540/year

3rd year CA - $114/hr = $83,488/year
5th year CA - $122/hr = $89,304/year
12th year CA - $150/hr = $109,800/year

Monthly guarantee: 61 hours (737)



(and just for laughs:)

Southwest
1st year FO - $79/hr = $73,944/year
5th year FO - $155/hr = $145,080/year
12th year FO -$180/hr = $168,480/year

3rd year CA - $233/hr = $218,088/year
5th year CA - $238/hr = $222,768/year
12th year CA - $258/hr = $241,488/year

Monthly guarantee: 78 hours

And read all about the Southern work rules ... (or lack thereof ...)

zerozero
02-27-2018, 07:07 PM
Both Atlas and Southern CBAs are posted on www.atlasfacts.org FYI.

Do your due diligence before accepting a position at either company. Just because the aircraft are bigger and the destinations more exotic doesn't mean the pay and work rules are on par with other heavy international operators.


Lugar
02-28-2018, 06:25 AM
Both Atlas and Southern CBAs are posted on AtlasFacts.org (http://www.atlasfacts.org) FYI.

Do your due diligence before accepting a position at either company. Just because the aircraft are bigger and the destinations more exotic doesn't mean the pay and work rules are on par with other heavy international operators.

If you are lacking a degree, but want international heavy experience, Atlas is a great choice. Thanks to the Internet, there really shouldn’t be any surprises going in.

motorclutch
02-28-2018, 06:40 AM
Lets not forget.........the words from a former Southern Air President
" Southern Air's contract is as good as the paper its written on!"

Lugar
02-28-2018, 06:42 AM
Lets not forget.........the words from a former Southern Air President
" Southern Air's contract is as good as the paper its written on!"

Which, depending on the quality of paper, can mean it’s great, or might mean it’s awful.

TiredSoul
02-28-2018, 07:10 AM
DC8driver; you’re conveniently forgetting how much harder it swould to get into SouthWest then Southern.
I have a 73 type and after 3x not even getting the time of day from SW moved on.
You can compare anything to anything but if you’re not getting hired it’s a mute point.
Southern could still be a good starter airline. Nobody says it’s a destination.
Pay is commensurate with Miami Air and Swift.

captjns
02-28-2018, 08:12 AM
Southern, WGA, Swift, Miami Air, etal. are stepping stone airlines until the dream airline comes knocking on your door with a job offer.

That said, the menu of life is limited. Either you sit by and wait for an eternity waiting for DAL, AA, SW, UAL, JB to call... remain where you are, building time, or apply with and take a job with one of the lower tiered ACMI carriers.

At the end of the day, pi$$ing and moaning ain’t gonna get you on with your dream carrier... is it?:rolleyes:

TiredSoul
02-28-2018, 05:43 PM
Amen....^^^^

JohnBurke
03-01-2018, 07:28 PM
Southern, WGA, Swift, Miami Air, etal. are stepping stone airlines until the dream airline comes knocking on your door with a job offer.


To some, perhaps.

No Land 3
03-01-2018, 07:51 PM
First year FO at K4 makes more than a 12 year CA at Southern on 737?
Are these 737’s doing the DHL flying that no one else wanted due to the low rates?

Jurassic Jet
03-02-2018, 04:18 AM
Are these 737’s doing the DHL flying that no one else wanted due to the low rates?

Yep that would be them.

FUPM
03-07-2018, 06:10 AM
Here is some good info if you are just looking for a stepping stone airline. Hell might as well be properly compensated and not have any chance of getting stuck on the 737 for three years or until the big boys call. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/omni-air-to-set-new-high-for-first-officer-pay-unio-446511/

FUPM
04-13-2018, 06:04 PM
10% of the southern pilots have left this year. 2 have quit without another job lined up.

73nite
04-17-2018, 01:18 PM
Most of southern pilots are looking to leave this place. Because contract negotiations are not going anywhere, the last offer, was ridiculous, atless management doesn't care. And they continue this game for many years. If you are at the regionals stay there, upgrade and continue your career path. If you think coming here to get a 777 type rating is going to help you, go ahead. Sometimes flying a big plane doesn't help you to get a better job. It's greener in other places. Go to Omni or kalitta. They pay better than here.

maxjet
04-18-2018, 05:10 AM
And don't forget:

Southern
1st year FO - $61/hr = $44,652/year
5th year FO - $77/hr = $56,364/year
12th year FO - $95/hr = $69,540/year

3rd year CA - $114/hr = $83,488/year
5th year CA - $122/hr = $89,304/year
12th year CA - $150/hr = $109,800/year

Monthly guarantee: 61 hours (737)



(and just for laughs:)

Southwest
1st year FO - $79/hr = $73,944/year
5th year FO - $155/hr = $145,080/year
12th year FO -$180/hr = $168,480/year

3rd year CA - $233/hr = $218,088/year
5th year CA - $238/hr = $222,768/year
12th year CA - $258/hr = $241,488/year

Monthly guarantee: 78 hours

And read all about the Southern work rules ... (or lack thereof ...)

Don’t Forget Kalitta
First year FO $106
Third Year Captain $203

DC8DRIVER
04-18-2018, 07:05 AM
Yes. A good comparison.

Southern
1st year FO - $61/hr = $44,652/year
Kalitta
1st year FO - $107/hr = $82,176/year

Southern
3rd year CA - $114/hr = $83,488/year
Kalitta
3rd year CA - $203/hr = $155,904/year

Really you could pick just about any airline you'd want to fly for, compare them, and the SIA pay scales would look this bad.

No Land 3
04-18-2018, 08:30 AM
Yes. A good comparison.

Southern
1st year FO - $61/hr = $44,652/year
Kalitta
1st year FO - $107/hr = $82,176/year

Southern
3rd year CA - $114/hr = $83,488/year
Kalitta
3rd year CA - $203/hr = $155,904/year

Really you could pick just about any airline you'd want to fly for, compare them, and the SIA pay scales would look this bad.

Realistic numbers for K4 first year FO is between 100 to 140k
Third year CA is north of 200k.

Halon1211
04-20-2018, 10:32 AM
You guys need to be emailing your union leaders and asking them what they are doing about section 744 of this bill.

I’m emailing my union rep and I don’t even fly cargo. We are all in this industry together!

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2018-04-19/faa-bill-poised-reach-floor-next-week

Twin Wasp
04-20-2018, 03:40 PM
Not a problem at Southern, the robot would cost more than the pilots it replaces.

JonnyKnoxville
04-26-2018, 06:15 AM
A Brief Recap of Atlas Negotiating History

Fellow Atlas Crew Members,

With so many new Atlas crew members, I receive regular inquiries about the lengthy labor history at Atlas and how we got to where we are today. Sadly, there is nothing new to the position Atlas management has historically taken. In this message, I will attempt to cover our 19-year negotiating history as briefly as possible and still give you an accurate perspective of what management is attempting to perpetrate on our pilot group and families, yet again.

In late 1999, Polar Air Cargo achieved its first union CBA under ALPA with a priority put on work rules and quality of life provisions, rather than compensation.

In 2001, Atlas Air purchased Polar Air Cargo from General Electric and thus began a somewhat disjointed merger and acquisition process. Although Atlas had purchased Polar, its leadership did not know exactly how to integrate Polar. Throughout the initial years of being under the same management structure relations grew strained – not only between the Polar MEC and Atlas MEC, but also between the Polar MEC and Atlas management in Purchase, NY. Atlas management worked constantly to leverage the pilots, pitting both groups against each other. While this worked well for management, it was to the detriment of the pilots. Polar’s CBA became amendable in 2002 and after three years of manipulating the pilot group and stonewalling at the negotiating table, the Polar pilots chose to strike in 2005. The successful 20-day strike, came to a close only when both the Atlas and Polar pilot groups finally started working together. Unfortunately, this strike was followed by a weak back-to-work agreement, reached in part due to an APLA representative’s mistaken assumption that the company would follow through in good faith if the pilots extended some good will in entering a critical post-strike negotiation. This included prematurely taking down the Polar picket, which gave away precious union leverage before ever beginning negotiations. The results were predictable. In essence, after a 20-day pilot strike, the resulting negotiation yielded little if anything more than what the company had offered before the strike. The Polar pilots came away with very modest raises and not much more.

In 2002, the Atlas pilots achieved their first union CBA. It provided better compensation than the Polar contract, but it contained some inferior work rules and quality of life provisions. Both CBAs were fashioned from an ALPA first contract blueprint. They were very basic and trailed behind the rest of the industry.

In 2004, before the Polar strike, Atlas and Polar had been thrust into bankruptcy after years of upper management officials’ excessive management compensation and a long history of loading up the company with massive debt, mostly attributed to aircraft acquisitions (sound familiar?). Both Atlas and Polar managed to come out of bankruptcy that same year after erasing over $900 million dollars off the balance sheet, a sizable amount for an airline with only 46 aircraft.

Along the way, the Atlas pilots were also able to negotiate modest raises, but nothing remotely close to any industry standard. Atlas and Polar pilots could not get on the same page and thus continued to play into the company’s hands. In 2008, after years of frustration and movement towards a joint CBA, a movement was started by the Atlas pilots to seek representation with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT). ALPA had come out with policies and opinions against the ACMI business as a whole; a business model that Atlas was and is still built upon. The move was successful and in late 2008, the Atlas and Polar pilots left ALPA and became part of the Teamsters. Before both pilot groups left ALPA, the merged seniority list was delivered to Atlas management thus triggering the amalgamation process and an arbitrated CBA.

Management initially offered a “dual track” expedited system and promised a CBA in nine months, further indicating that management would not hold an arbitrator to the “amalgamation standard” (sound familiar?). The Atlas and Polar pilots sat down at the table in good faith, expecting management to honor its promises to expeditiously negotiate a new joint CBA. Atlas management, of course, did nothing of the kind. The promised nine-month process took close to two years. Under oath, in the arbitration process, we learned that Atlas intentionally delayed the CBA for over a year at the apparent behest of DHL. In the resulting arbitration, virtually the first words out of the company’s high priced “Hollywood” lawyer was an admonition that the arbitrator did not have the authority to go outside the parameters of the Atlas and Polar CBAs thus triggering the “amalgamation standard”. Finally, in September of 2011, an amalgamated five-year CBA was produced.

Even though the merger of the two airlines never occurred, and to this very day, as everyone can all plainly see, Atlas and Polar have never been merged. Atlas management benefited from the misapplication of the provisions of both CBAs in order to take advantage of the merger provisions at the table and yet never actually merged the airlines as promised. This manipulated process produced a combined CBA based on a template of two first-time contracts. The combined Atlas/Polar CBA is now woefully behind the rest of industry. While everyone was relieved that the process was finally over, all understood that management had distorted a provision in the scope language of both CBAs to keep pilot work rules and pay well below industry standard. In fact our present CEO “crowed” to analysts and investors after the CBA was signed that the effective expense increase for the pilot workforce was only around seven percent. Through this manipulated and distorted process, the Atlas and Polar pilots were deprived of a ratification vote by the amalgamation process. To date, for the legacy Atlas and Polar pilot groups respectively, 16 and 18 years have elapsed since any pilot has voted or been able to ratify a true negotiated CBA here at Atlas. If management gets its way through the courts and the current attempted arbitration process, it will again deny all of us another opportunity to vote on our future and ratify a CBA, possibly for the next decade or more.

All of the above leads us to our current negotiations, in which this same management group is holding out on all of the major provisions of the CBA for (wait for it)…an AMALGAMATION. Management’s tactics and playbook are exactly the same as last time, as are the promises and assurances. All the while, the same catastrophic damage is being inflicted on our pilot group and our families. Of course the executives couldn’t care less, as they continue to line their pockets with the highest salaries in the airline industry, lavish bonuses and obscene perks. All this, while saddling the company with an increasingly unmanageable debt and passing on desirable lucrative contracts.

Many of you ask, “Why do we still sit and negotiate with a group that engages in such bad faith and has such a long history of doing so?” The answer is simple, we are bound by the Railway Labor Act (RLA) to negotiate in good faith and we are committed on our side to bargain in good faith, as will be evident to the NMB or an arbitrator if that is the path we are forced to travel.

The current Framework Agreement extension ends June 1, 2018, so we will see what happens after that. For now, it appears certain that the company is dragging this process out just so they can get to the well one more time to enjoy yet another misapplication of the current CBA merger provisions.

As we move forward, we have something labor rarely has in dealing with any management group. We have a long and sordid management track record on which to rely. When this management group makes promises and assertions, they have one big problem; their track record precedes and betrays them. As discussed, it is a negotiating history based upon broken promises, reneging on deals and commitments. It is one of telling crew members only half of the story, misusing and manipulating language in the CBA (like in the recent strike language arbitration, when management’s history was totally exposed and justifiably denied by the arbitrator) and the list goes on. I can assure you we will NEVER again fall for such false promises, half-baked truths and deals on which management can renege. In short, we maintain the advantage of having “seen this movie before”.

I know the process to achieve a new CBA is long and arduous; the last one took 6-8 years, depending on whether you were Atlas or Polar. This one will not take as long, as Atlas cannot survive it. Already past the point of no return, even the most optimistic of business viewpoints, it will take years if not an entire decade for this company to recover from this current management-imposed fiasco. Indeed, there are now only a very few “executive level” managers who believe in the current company strategy or who haven't buried their heads in the sand as Atlas and Southern continue to wither. It is now clear that the executive suite has lost not only the confidence of the Atlas and Southern pilots, but most of the airline’s employees and middle management as well. Parked aircraft, large amounts of open time, cancelled flights and angry customers do not lead anyone, except the very top few that Atlas is in anything other than steep decline. Hiding the pilot shortage and pilot retention problems behind false maintenance listings is all part of this desperate management’s scheme to hide the real disaster they have brought upon themselves.

The fastest and best way to get a new CBA remains through direct, good faith negotiations. It is the only thing that can save Atlas from further irreparable harm. It is also the way to the industry-standard CBA we all deserve. The more unity, resolve, and contract compliance we maintain, the faster we will get a new CBA. There are several picketing events coming up in May and June, so come out and participate in force like the recent CVG event to show our solidarity.

We are a strong, cohesive pilot group and for that teamwork I am convinced we will ALL be rewarded.

As usual, I thank all of you for your support. We will prevail and break the string of amalgamated, inferior, bottom level CBAs that this pilot group has had inflicted upon it for so many years.

Remember, always be “ALL-IN”.

Fraternally,

Bob K.
Atlas Executive Council Chairman

No Land 3
04-26-2018, 08:34 AM
A Brief Recap of Atlas Negotiating History

Fellow Atlas Crew Members,

With so many new Atlas crew members, I receive regular inquiries about the lengthy labor history at Atlas and how we got to where we are today. Sadly, there is nothing new to the position Atlas management has historically taken. In this message, I will attempt to cover our 19-year negotiating history as briefly as possible and still give you an accurate perspective of what management is attempting to perpetrate on our pilot group and families, yet again.

In late 1999, Polar Air Cargo achieved its first union CBA under ALPA with a priority put on work rules and quality of life provisions, rather than compensation.

In 2001, Atlas Air purchased Polar Air Cargo from General Electric and thus began a somewhat disjointed merger and acquisition process. Although Atlas had purchased Polar, its leadership did not know exactly how to integrate Polar. Throughout the initial years of being under the same management structure relations grew strained – not only between the Polar MEC and Atlas MEC, but also between the Polar MEC and Atlas management in Purchase, NY. Atlas management worked constantly to leverage the pilots, pitting both groups against each other. While this worked well for management, it was to the detriment of the pilots. Polar’s CBA became amendable in 2002 and after three years of manipulating the pilot group and stonewalling at the negotiating table, the Polar pilots chose to strike in 2005. The successful 20-day strike, came to a close only when both the Atlas and Polar pilot groups finally started working together. Unfortunately, this strike was followed by a weak back-to-work agreement, reached in part due to an APLA representative’s mistaken assumption that the company would follow through in good faith if the pilots extended some good will in entering a critical post-strike negotiation. This included prematurely taking down the Polar picket, which gave away precious union leverage before ever beginning negotiations. The results were predictable. In essence, after a 20-day pilot strike, the resulting negotiation yielded little if anything more than what the company had offered before the strike. The Polar pilots came away with very modest raises and not much more.

In 2002, the Atlas pilots achieved their first union CBA. It provided better compensation than the Polar contract, but it contained some inferior work rules and quality of life provisions. Both CBAs were fashioned from an ALPA first contract blueprint. They were very basic and trailed behind the rest of the industry.

In 2004, before the Polar strike, Atlas and Polar had been thrust into bankruptcy after years of upper management officials’ excessive management compensation and a long history of loading up the company with massive debt, mostly attributed to aircraft acquisitions (sound familiar?). Both Atlas and Polar managed to come out of bankruptcy that same year after erasing over $900 million dollars off the balance sheet, a sizable amount for an airline with only 46 aircraft.

Along the way, the Atlas pilots were also able to negotiate modest raises, but nothing remotely close to any industry standard. Atlas and Polar pilots could not get on the same page and thus continued to play into the company’s hands. In 2008, after years of frustration and movement towards a joint CBA, a movement was started by the Atlas pilots to seek representation with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT). ALPA had come out with policies and opinions against the ACMI business as a whole; a business model that Atlas was and is still built upon. The move was successful and in late 2008, the Atlas and Polar pilots left ALPA and became part of the Teamsters. Before both pilot groups left ALPA, the merged seniority list was delivered to Atlas management thus triggering the amalgamation process and an arbitrated CBA.

Management initially offered a “dual track” expedited system and promised a CBA in nine months, further indicating that management would not hold an arbitrator to the “amalgamation standard” (sound familiar?). The Atlas and Polar pilots sat down at the table in good faith, expecting management to honor its promises to expeditiously negotiate a new joint CBA. Atlas management, of course, did nothing of the kind. The promised nine-month process took close to two years. Under oath, in the arbitration process, we learned that Atlas intentionally delayed the CBA for over a year at the apparent behest of DHL. In the resulting arbitration, virtually the first words out of the company’s high priced “Hollywood” lawyer was an admonition that the arbitrator did not have the authority to go outside the parameters of the Atlas and Polar CBAs thus triggering the “amalgamation standard”. Finally, in September of 2011, an amalgamated five-year CBA was produced.

Even though the merger of the two airlines never occurred, and to this very day, as everyone can all plainly see, Atlas and Polar have never been merged. Atlas management benefited from the misapplication of the provisions of both CBAs in order to take advantage of the merger provisions at the table and yet never actually merged the airlines as promised. This manipulated process produced a combined CBA based on a template of two first-time contracts. The combined Atlas/Polar CBA is now woefully behind the rest of industry. While everyone was relieved that the process was finally over, all understood that management had distorted a provision in the scope language of both CBAs to keep pilot work rules and pay well below industry standard. In fact our present CEO “crowed” to analysts and investors after the CBA was signed that the effective expense increase for the pilot workforce was only around seven percent. Through this manipulated and distorted process, the Atlas and Polar pilots were deprived of a ratification vote by the amalgamation process. To date, for the legacy Atlas and Polar pilot groups respectively, 16 and 18 years have elapsed since any pilot has voted or been able to ratify a true negotiated CBA here at Atlas. If management gets its way through the courts and the current attempted arbitration process, it will again deny all of us another opportunity to vote on our future and ratify a CBA, possibly for the next decade or more.

All of the above leads us to our current negotiations, in which this same management group is holding out on all of the major provisions of the CBA for (wait for it)…an AMALGAMATION. Management’s tactics and playbook are exactly the same as last time, as are the promises and assurances. All the while, the same catastrophic damage is being inflicted on our pilot group and our families. Of course the executives couldn’t care less, as they continue to line their pockets with the highest salaries in the airline industry, lavish bonuses and obscene perks. All this, while saddling the company with an increasingly unmanageable debt and passing on desirable lucrative contracts.

Many of you ask, “Why do we still sit and negotiate with a group that engages in such bad faith and has such a long history of doing so?” The answer is simple, we are bound by the Railway Labor Act (RLA) to negotiate in good faith and we are committed on our side to bargain in good faith, as will be evident to the NMB or an arbitrator if that is the path we are forced to travel.

The current Framework Agreement extension ends June 1, 2018, so we will see what happens after that. For now, it appears certain that the company is dragging this process out just so they can get to the well one more time to enjoy yet another misapplication of the current CBA merger provisions.

As we move forward, we have something labor rarely has in dealing with any management group. We have a long and sordid management track record on which to rely. When this management group makes promises and assertions, they have one big problem; their track record precedes and betrays them. As discussed, it is a negotiating history based upon broken promises, reneging on deals and commitments. It is one of telling crew members only half of the story, misusing and manipulating language in the CBA (like in the recent strike language arbitration, when management’s history was totally exposed and justifiably denied by the arbitrator) and the list goes on. I can assure you we will NEVER again fall for such false promises, half-baked truths and deals on which management can renege. In short, we maintain the advantage of having “seen this movie before”.

I know the process to achieve a new CBA is long and arduous; the last one took 6-8 years, depending on whether you were Atlas or Polar. This one will not take as long, as Atlas cannot survive it. Already past the point of no return, even the most optimistic of business viewpoints, it will take years if not an entire decade for this company to recover from this current management-imposed fiasco. Indeed, there are now only a very few “executive level” managers who believe in the current company strategy or who haven't buried their heads in the sand as Atlas and Southern continue to wither. It is now clear that the executive suite has lost not only the confidence of the Atlas and Southern pilots, but most of the airline’s employees and middle management as well. Parked aircraft, large amounts of open time, cancelled flights and angry customers do not lead anyone, except the very top few that Atlas is in anything other than steep decline. Hiding the pilot shortage and pilot retention problems behind false maintenance listings is all part of this desperate management’s scheme to hide the real disaster they have brought upon themselves.

The fastest and best way to get a new CBA remains through direct, good faith negotiations. It is the only thing that can save Atlas from further irreparable harm. It is also the way to the industry-standard CBA we all deserve. The more unity, resolve, and contract compliance we maintain, the faster we will get a new CBA. There are several picketing events coming up in May and June, so come out and participate in force like the recent CVG event to show our solidarity.

We are a strong, cohesive pilot group and for that teamwork I am convinced we will ALL be rewarded.

As usual, I thank all of you for your support. We will prevail and break the string of amalgamated, inferior, bottom level CBAs that this pilot group has had inflicted upon it for so many years.

Remember, always be “ALL-IN”.

Fraternally,

Bob K.
Atlas Executive Council Chairman

Who in their right mind would stay over there knowing exactly what is going to happen and how long it will take?

BluePAX
04-26-2018, 08:36 AM
Who in their right mind would stay over there knowing exactly what is going to happen and how long it will take?

I believe attrition speaks for itself.

RyeMex
04-26-2018, 09:50 AM
I believe attrition speaks for itself.

During the month of March, Atlas hired 59 to grow the seniority list by 20. We're at the "hire 3 to keep 1" point.

maxjet
04-30-2018, 06:26 AM
Not a problem at Southern, the robot would cost more than the pilots it replaces.

That is really funny even if sadly, true

CallmeJB
04-30-2018, 07:16 AM
During the month of March, Atlas hired 59 to grow the seniority list by 20. We're at the "hire 3 to keep 1" point.

A sad state, indeed.

Worth pointing out, however, that "hire 3 to keep 1" is wrong. Those above numbers* are expressed as: "hire 2 to keep 1, and another to grow by 1."


*Also worth pointing out that those numbers are at Atlas on the 747 and 767 fleets. The 737 and 777 Southern fleets cannot attract that many newhires.

JackStraw
04-30-2018, 03:14 PM
A sad state, indeed.

Worth pointing out, however, that "hire 3 to keep 1" is wrong. Those above numbers* are expressed as: "hire 2 to keep 1, and another to grow by 1."


*Also worth pointing out that those numbers are at Atlas on the 747 and 767 fleets. The 737 and 777 Southern fleets cannot attract that many newhires.

Not that it matters much though. The company continues to “put bodies in seats” and move the freight. All because new hires are ignorant to the facts, or they’re just apathetic to being paid the least to do this job.

And if the company plans to hire 10 I’d be willing to bet that they only hope that 6 show up. They’re slow but they’re not stupid.

Lockheed
04-30-2018, 05:26 PM
That is really funny even if sadly, true

+1
That was truly really funny

jetlagging
05-23-2018, 05:49 PM
Southern Air has a critical staffing problem at the moment. While they have been challenged to fill classes in recent history, the few recruits they have retained are resigning quicker than they can be replaced. FO's are not the only ones leaving but Captains are also resigning. This has created a rumor that "Southern Air is parking airplanes" and it's partially true. The airplanes are not "parked" permanently... yet, but the staffing is so critical that many flights have been cancelled this week and it will only get worse as more resignations end up on the Chief pilots desk in the next few weeks.

Atlas has had their chances to negotiate, they will never fix this problem now. The horse has left the barn. Good luck closing the barn doors now when the horse is already gone, but this is probably their plan anyway.

Why anyone would stay when they are trying to chase you away? Does anyone think they will love you later? This is the pattern of an abuser. They will never love you and the abuse will always continue.

motorclutch
05-24-2018, 01:22 AM
Damn..sounds just like the Soapy plan at ABX. Wait, didn’t you guys fire him? I guess Atlas did like some aspects of his character.

articwenger
06-03-2018, 02:17 PM
If given the option between Spirit Yellow Buses or coming to Southern on the 777...what would you all recommend and why?

Former Army Guy still in the Reserves, and the only thing appealing about Southern is the schedule resembles a normal deployment schedule.

GeelErmo
06-03-2018, 02:49 PM
If given the option between Spirit Yellow Buses or coming to Southern on the 777...what would you all recommend and why?

Former Army Guy still in the Reserves, and the only thing appealing about Southern is the schedule resembles a normal deployment schedule.
How can U even compare Sprint and their new CBA with “will fly for food” Southern Air? Wow.

David Puddy
06-03-2018, 03:33 PM
If given the option between Spirit Yellow Buses or coming to Southern on the 777...what would you all recommend and why?

Former Army Guy still in the Reserves, and the only thing appealing about Southern is the schedule resembles a normal deployment schedule.

Spirit. No question.

thesandbox
06-03-2018, 04:22 PM
Spirit...I have many friends from my former company there and a few that had a choice between Spirit and Atlas (and we all know Southern is Atlas B scale) and even under their last contract they ran the numbers and came way out ahead there and have pretty good work rules with 4 days off min between any pairing. Now it's a no brainer.

articwenger
06-03-2018, 04:43 PM
Thanks for the insight.

Big Fred
06-03-2018, 08:33 PM
I’m at Southern. Lots of great people but the work rules kill everything. Do your homework about this place

STR8NLVL
06-03-2018, 10:35 PM
If given the option between Spirit Yellow Buses or coming to Southern on the 777...what would you all recommend and why?



Former Army Guy still in the Reserves, and the only thing appealing about Southern is the schedule resembles a normal deployment schedule.



Heck, I know two current Atlas 747 captains considering leaving Atlas for Spirit. I can’t imagine going to Southern over Spirit. Spirit wins, hands down. Not even close.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Purpleanga
06-10-2018, 09:21 PM
If you're home based, do you go to CVG or are you sent to different places to start? Also how does reserve work if you're home based?

Birdsmash
06-11-2018, 04:04 AM
For the most part you will airline to CVG or LAX (sometimes another station... HKG/BAH/LEJ, etc). You could sit reserve at home before an assigned trip, on the road in the middle of a trip, or at the end of a trip before being sent home. Once home, the rest requirements generally make you untouchable for a few days or week or more. Southern rarely has enough pilots for pure reserve. Most of the time they will grab you for something. Don’t count on bidding a reserve line and sitting at home all month. It won’t happen.

captsurf
06-18-2018, 05:33 AM
Working for Southern is like having a boat— the best days are the day you buy it and the day you sell it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

atpcliff
06-18-2018, 11:53 AM
If given the option between Spirit Yellow Buses or coming to Southern on the 777...what would you all recommend and why?

Former Army Guy still in the Reserves, and the only thing appealing about Southern is the schedule resembles a normal deployment schedule.

If you REALLY want to work for an airline like Southern, just go to Atlas (which has a much better contract than Southern). Atlas owns, and does the hiring for Atlas/Southern. Atlas classes are nowhere near full, so you can just request Atlas, vs Southern, after being hired out of the Atlas interview.

With current contracts, Spirit, Omni and Kalitta are better than Atlas (and, of course, Southern).

Crusoe
06-19-2018, 09:19 PM
Southern (& Atlas) won’t have a new contract for probably a minimum of 2 to 3 years - probably longer. And if forced into another amalgamation/arbitration contract...then it may be different than what we have now but it certainly won’t be anything close to industry standard. More like industry sub-basement. And by the time you find that out you will have missed out on many valuable years of seniority & money at a more enlightened airline.

In a nutshell —-> I’d say Spirit is the easy choice here.

Ps- Be very wary of what they tell you in interviews & job fairs. They’ve been telling people for years that a great new contract is right around the corner. Watch what they do (sue & stonewall the pilots, violate the framework agreement as well as the current CBA) and not what they say (picture used car salesman trying to get you to sign up for in-house financing).

Gustywind
06-21-2018, 04:11 PM
hi everyone
Quick question
Has anyone in this forum recently got hired by southern ?
How much hours they require ( Jet time and total )?
I am currently FO for skywest flying 175 but would love to fly B777.
Do I have any chance with 500 hours jet time ( total 2700 ) ?
Thanks in advance

captjns
06-21-2018, 04:24 PM
hi everyone
Quick question
Has anyone in this forum recently got hired by southern ?
How much hours they require ( Jet time and total )?
I am currently FO for skywest flying 175 but would love to fly B777.
Do I have any chance with 500 hours jet time ( total 2700 ) ?
Thanks in advance

Despite what some naysayers may post, you’ll never know unless you apply. What do you have lose, or better yet, what do you have to gain?

Give it a shot.

Big Fred
06-21-2018, 06:53 PM
If you have a pulse they will hire you. They have hired several guys with mostly helicopter backgrounds to fly the 777, not saying that is a bad thing. They want you to be trainable.

I have been here less than six months. The bit of advice I will offer is to do your homework before you apply. A first year FO at Kalitta will make 140 in their first year. A 12 year CAPT here will make 150 (+/-).

I love the triple but make an informed decision. The crews you fly with are predominately fun people. The work rules are the sucky part. Also we will get a contract one day, I’ve heard people say by mid summer all the way to 2021, who knows. It is a good place to be if money and free time are not big issues to you. Just my nickel.

BF

Diesel8
06-21-2018, 11:33 PM
riginally Posted by Gustywind View Post
hi everyone
Quick question
Has anyone in this forum recently got hired by southern ?
How much hours they require ( Jet time and total )?
I am currently FO for skywest flying 175 but would love to fly B777.
Do I have any chance with 500 hours jet time ( total 2700 ) ?
Thanks in advance

Just remember that if you get hired by SAI you will be drinking from a fire hose during training. There is a lot to learn, and do you have the aptitude and attitude to survive?

There have been a number of people that have not made it through training. Though you might think that SAI is the fast track to you following your SJS dreams, evaluate yourself to see that your skill level is up to the task. Even thought you might be hired with such low time and experience, your success at SAI or any other airline for that matter is not a given. This is something that you will want to take into consideration for the whole of your aviation career.

Birdsmash
06-22-2018, 04:23 AM
Diesel8 gave solid advice. If you get hired at Southern, Atlas, Kalitta, etc for international ops you will be trained to act as PIC in cruise flight while the captain is in the bunk. If you don’t see yourself being able to step into that position and be able to obtain an Oceanic Clearance for the North Atlantic, determine if the ETOPS weather that Dispatch just sent is truly legal, figure out how to make HF position reports if the CPDLC/ADS is not working, or get an HF phone patch to Dispatch if ACARS/SATCOM is inop stay where you are to gain more experience and confidence. International Ops is the Adult leaugue. You will learn a ton but a ton is expected of you.

WhipWhitaker
06-22-2018, 07:07 AM
The above posts are all very good advice. At Atlas/Southern, the wheat is now being separated from the chaff in ground school, the sim, and in some cases on IOE, rather than by hiring only well qualified candidates. This "see how they shake out" mentality works out well if you're a strong stick/student but I had people in my class fail out in each of those segments of training. If you're hesitant about your ability, that 74/76/77 type is not worth a training failure on your record. My .02

dba74
06-22-2018, 12:00 PM
If you REALLY want to work for an airline like Southern, just go to Atlas (which has a much better contract than Southern). Atlas owns, and does the hiring for Atlas/Southern. Atlas classes are nowhere near full, so you can just request Atlas, vs Southern, after being hired out of the Atlas interview.




Can you do the reverse of this? Interview with Southern and request Atlas?

121guy
06-22-2018, 06:20 PM
Sounds like they've adopted the regional model of hire 'em all and let the training department sort it out.

atpcliff
06-23-2018, 01:04 PM
Atlas owns and controls Southern.
Southern does not hire.
Atlas hires, and then has class openings for Southern 777/737 and Atlas 747/767. If you are offered a Southern class date, you can ask to hold out for Atlas if you want. Many people have been offered a variety of class dates/airframes from Atlas HR.

Birdsmash
06-23-2018, 01:18 PM
Atlas owns and controls Southern.
Southern does not hire.
Atlas hires, and then has class openings for Southern 777/737 and Atlas 747/767. If you are offered a Southern class date, you can ask to hold out for Atlas if you want. Many people have been offered a variety of class dates/airframes from Atlas HR.

Although Atlas does the initial resume sort and invite, final interviews are with Southern HR & Flight Ops Management for the 777 & 737, contrary to the post above. We are still separate airlines at the operational level.

dba74
06-24-2018, 07:48 AM
Thanks guys!

atpcliff
06-24-2018, 10:23 AM
Although Atlas does the initial resume sort and invite, final interviews are with Southern HR & Flight Ops Management for the 777 & 737, contrary to the post above. We are still separate airlines at the operational level.

Interesting. I have read several pilots have been offered class dates to both Southern and Atlas. I didn't realize that they had a Southern interview somewhere during the hiring process...

Birdsmash
06-24-2018, 02:10 PM
Interesting. I have read several pilots have been offered class dates to both Southern and Atlas. I didn't realize that they had a Southern interview somewhere during the hiring process...

I hope you don’t believe everything you read on APC.

WhipWhitaker
06-24-2018, 07:18 PM
There have been pilots offered classes for the 777 and 747 that were in the same interview FWIW.

akfrtdwg 57
06-24-2018, 08:45 PM
Talked personally to a guy who had passport issues upon starting class at Atlas. The only option they gave him was to go to Southern at that point.

Birdsmash
06-24-2018, 09:33 PM
Talked personally to a guy who had passport issues upon starting class at Atlas. The only option they gave him was to go to Southern at that point.

Maybe that’s the new 737 hiring program? Hire pilots that can’t leave the country. Lol

nitefr8dog
06-25-2018, 03:17 PM
Maybe that’s the new 737 hiring program? Hire pilots that can’t leave the country. Lol

Funny.....

Purpleanga
06-25-2018, 04:19 PM
Well I applied... thought I'd get a insta-call but no bites today. Is it as competitive as Atlas since they are in charge of selecting resumes?

dba74
06-26-2018, 10:56 AM
Maybe that’s the new 737 hiring program? Hire pilots that can’t leave the country. Lol

737 goes to winnepeg though

Diesel8
06-26-2018, 11:00 AM
Well I applied... thought I'd get a insta-call but no bites today. Is it as competitive as Atlas since they are in charge of selecting resumes?

That was Monday. The office is busy dealing with all things that happened over the weekend that have to be addressed. Give it time.

If you don't get the call, consider yourself lucky and find other more fertile fields. Oh, you might want to self-evaluate, and try to understand why you didn't get that call. SAI hiring is based more on who is willing to come, versus who to select. There are still limits though, (hopefully).

Self-Evaluation: Something we ALL need to improve upon!

402FreightDog
06-27-2018, 11:50 AM
Any word on the Southern contract parity?

Atrasaty
06-27-2018, 02:13 PM
Any word on the Southern contract parity?

Looks like IBT, subject to ratification have agreed to put the Southern group on the Atlas contract. Not sure why they agreed to help solve the Southern hiring crisis but there must be more to the story.

All the best to our Southern brothers and sisters....

captsurf
06-27-2018, 02:16 PM
Not sure why they agreed to help solve the Southern hiring crisis but there must be more to the story.

All the best to our Southern brothers and sisters....


Fighting for a contract while riding into battle on the backs of Southern Air pilots. Some “brothers”.

Atrasaty
06-27-2018, 02:30 PM
Fighting for a contract while riding into battle on the backs of Southern Air pilots. Some “brothers”.

Back to your Jet Blue thread you troll.

captsurf
06-27-2018, 05:12 PM
Back to your Jet Blue thread you troll.



Sorry for showing concern for my former friends and colleagues. During my time there, serving as a union volunteer, I just felt like Southern was treated more as leverage than family... just calling a spade a spade. Guess that makes me a troll.

Globemaster2827
06-27-2018, 09:39 PM
Congrats to the Southern pilots out there! Hopefully we get a new contract soon but this is great for the Atlas guys too as it eliminates the possibility of merging work rules with Southern.

Diesel8
06-28-2018, 06:48 AM
Congrats to the Southern pilots out there! Hopefully we get a new contract soon

Well, I wouldn't go patting ourselves on the back so soon. It ain't over till the fat lady sings, and that's going to be a while.

Kudos to all the hard work the union reps/volunteers did.

but this is great for the Atlas guys too as it eliminates the possibility of merging work rules with Southern.

Glad that we could be of service to your plight. Unfortunately that sentiment doesn't give me a warm fuzzy, nor engender strong feelings of brotherhood. Seems rather condescending.

To all SAI guys - do your union buddies a favor, just thank them for now, they cannot give you any more information until everything has been picked through by the lawyers on both sides. Patience please!

Brokenwind
06-28-2018, 09:16 AM
Word to the wise... AAWW management is not offering SAI pilots contract parity with the Atlas pilot group out of the goodness in their hearts.

There are undoubtedly strings attached and a hidden agenda. The SAI pilot group are hopefully brave enough to see that voting down this sub standard TA will put them in the driver seat. It’s obvious that AAWW management is feeling the pinch.

Bon courage!

Birdsmash
06-28-2018, 09:43 AM
Word to the wise... AAWW management is not offering SAI pilots contract parity with the Atlas pilot group out of the goodness in their hearts.

There are undoubtedly strings attached and a hidden agenda. The SAI pilot group are hopefully brave enough to see that voting down this sub standard TA will put them in the driver seat. It’s obvious that AAWW management is feeling the pinch.

Bon courage!

Anything beyond contract parity needs to be done in coordination with our Atlas brothers in a JCBA. All this would do is eliminate “almagamation” and get the SouthernAir pilots out from under the onerous bankruptcy CBA we’ve been forced to live under since the Atlas purchase of Southern. If Atlas had not purchased us 2 years ago, we had contract language that would’ve forced management into arbitration in November 2016 and we would have had a new CBA already in place by now. Would’ve it have been equal to Kalitta or Omni? Who knows. However, it would’ve been much better than this dog of a CBA we’ve operated under for over 11 years...that’s right..11 years with only a slight mod post bankruptcy.

atpcliff
06-28-2018, 12:29 PM
The more that we pilots/union employees can work together, the easier it will be to get our fair share of our company's profits. Too much of the fruits of labor here on Our Earth, have been going to the 0.1%.

Let us try our best to support each other, and work towards a common goal of improving AAWW.

God Bless, and Namaste...

cliff
PVG

Purpleanga
06-29-2018, 09:08 AM
That was Monday. The office is busy dealing with all things that happened over the weekend that have to be addressed. Give it time.

If you don't get the call, consider yourself lucky and find other more fertile fields. Oh, you might want to self-evaluate, and try to understand why you didn't get that call. SAI hiring is based more on who is willing to come, versus who to select. There are still limits though, (hopefully).

Self-Evaluation: Something we ALL need to improve upon!

There was a part of the application dashboard that I didn’t see that you also have to fill out. It blended in well with the other icons. I completed that last night. But since they’re going to offer this atlas deal maybe they stopped pulling resumes from the SA side and will hire from atlas?? :confused:

Captjim
06-29-2018, 09:19 AM
Word to the wise... AAWW management is not offering SAI pilots contract parity with the Atlas pilot group out of the goodness in their hearts.

There are undoubtedly strings attached and a hidden agenda. The SAI pilot group are hopefully brave enough to see that voting down this sub standard TA will put them in the driver seat. It’s obvious that AAWW management is feeling the pinch.

Bon courage!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Correct!

CA Deplorable
06-29-2018, 03:55 PM
Anything beyond contract parity needs to be done in coordination with our Atlas brothers in a JCBA. All this would do is eliminate “almagamation” and get the SouthernAir pilots out from under the onerous bankruptcy CBA we’ve been forced to live under since the Atlas purchase of Southern. If Atlas had not purchased us 2 years ago, we had contract language that would’ve forced management into arbitration in November 2016 and we would have had a new CBA already in place by now. Would’ve it have been equal to Kalitta or Omni? Who knows. However, it would’ve been much better than this dog of a CBA we’ve operated under for over 11 years...that’s right..11 years with only a slight mod post bankruptcy.
If Atlas wouldnt have purchased Southern it would have went the way of the dodo bird!

Birdsmash
06-29-2018, 07:58 PM
Southern was small but profitable...making about $12 million a year prior to the purchase. The bankruptcy shed a lot of debt (at the expense of the creditors). However, with small earnings it was difficult to lease additional 777s. Customers wanted 777s but weren’t willing to commit until a plane was on property for them. Little Ol’ Southern didn’t have the cash to buy or get the banks commit to a lease that runs $1.3 million a month or more unless they already had a customer. Atlas didn’t buy Southern because it was losing money. It’s made them a tidy profit the last 2 years.

FR8Dog7
06-30-2018, 05:50 AM
If Atlas wouldnt have purchased Southern it would have went the way of the dodo bird!


That is what they said about Polar as well! But they did so now you get to live with it.

No Land 3
06-30-2018, 07:53 PM
So the bigger question is why would you want to work at a company where the morale is low and all the pilots are ****ed off?

CA Deplorable
07-03-2018, 01:50 AM
That is what they said about Polar as well! But they did so now you get to live with it.
Fr8dog 7, I worked at Polar just prior to the acquisition of Polar by Atlas. Polar was owned by GECAS, prior to that Ned Wallace of Flying Tigers, who sold that to Fedex..now he is in bed with Kalitta. When I was there Polar received purchase enquiries from United (Polars sales director went to run United Cargo.. at the time they were operating DC-10 freighters...trying establish a diverse product like NWA Cargo) and also Fedex. Atlas’ board was full of GE execs at the time and Polar was owned by GECAS, about the same time the DOT stopped the transfer of routes with purchase and dissolution of a carrier, so the Polar routes and 5th freedom rights would go back into the pot to be bid by everyone if Polar ceased ops....thats the only reason the Polar name survived the purchase...the routes. As far as Southern if it wasnt for the original acquisition by Oak Hill Partners (owned 360)..Southern would have died then with the clapped out classics. Cargo 360 had the 777 order and Southern got their first 777 run CDG-BKK-DBX from Focus Air as they had the Thai Airways contract. Im happy the SA guys got whats fair and not be a pawn in a game, but the truth is SA has been on life support a couple of times and revived by other companies investment, not their stellar management decision making. Now you live with history. To my friends at Southern...not a diss best of luck!

Diesel8
07-03-2018, 07:01 AM
Fr8dog 7, I worked at Polar just prior to the acquisition of Polar by Atlas. Polar was owned by GECAS, prior to that Ned Wallace of Flying Tigers, who sold that to Fedex..now he is in bed with Kalitta. When I was there Polar received purchase enquiries from United (Polars sales director went to run United Cargo.. at the time they were operating DC-10 freighters...trying establish a diverse product like NWA Cargo) and also Fedex. Atlas’ board was full of GE execs at the time and Polar was owned by GECAS, about the same time the DOT stopped the transfer of routes with purchase and dissolution of a carrier, so the Polar routes and 5th freedom rights would go back into the pot to be bid by everyone if Polar ceased ops....thats the only reason the Polar name survived the purchase...the routes. As far as Southern if it wasnt for the original acquisition by Oak Hill Partners (owned 360)..Southern would have died then with the clapped out classics. Cargo 360 had the 777 order and Southern got their first 777 run CDG-BKK-DBX from Focus Air as they had the Thai Airways contract. Im happy the SA guys got whats fair and not be a pawn in a game, but the truth is SA has been on life support a couple of times and revived by other companies investment, not their stellar management decision making. Now you live with history. To my friends at Southern...not a diss best of luck!

It's not that simple, using your rationale Kalitta should have gone before Southern. They ran Classics longer than Southern.

No, your wrong. some companies are airlines, others are entities to be sold off. That would be more what the Neff model is about. Bet he does the same thing with Western Global.

Oh, and Cargo 360 was more of a money pit than Southern ever was. It was run by Delta pilots. Wanna see an airline go down the tubes? Let pilots run it. Lots of defunct pilot run airlines, thats' reality.

dutch747
07-03-2018, 11:47 AM
It's not that simple, using your rationale Kalitta should have gone before Southern. They ran Classics longer than Southern.

No, your wrong. some companies are airlines, others are entities to be sold off. That would be more what the Neff model is about. Bet he does the same thing with Western Global.

Oh, and Cargo 360 was more of a money pit than Southern ever was. It was run by Delta pilots. Wanna see an airline go down the tubes? Let pilots run it. Lots of defunct pilot run airlines, thats' reality.

Not true. Cargo 360 had a lucrative Korean Air Contract that kept their 3 Freighter flying in excess of 200 hours a month. All CM's at Cargo 360 averaged flying around 70-80 hours a month. Cargo 360 was purchased by Oak Hills who then put in an order for 5 777's and then bought Southern and decided to combine the 2 carriers under the Southern certificate ran by the Neff's. -This is all fact.

CA Deplorable
07-03-2018, 04:13 PM
I would disagree, having worked for Connie also..Connie is the master craftsman at making one mans junk another mans treasure. When we were flying those turd box DC-8-52s thru -63s Connie made a lot of money and outlasted all the Adhoc DC-8 operators of the era and the same with the classics...Ned Wallace was the driving force behind Connie getting rid of the Classics and it wasnt cause they werent making money.... its called a paradigm shift .. ask the Zoners if you dont understand..a CEO not willing to adjust.. until it was way too late. By the way K4 is a billion dollar in revenue privately held company... nobody to answer to but himself!!! And to note 360 had deep pockets and David Greenberg former Delta CEO as their leader..they def could have went places without SA INC in my honest opinion.

dutch747
07-04-2018, 02:23 AM
And to note 360 had deep pockets and David Greenberg former Delta CEO as their leader..they def could have went places without SA INC in my honest opinion.

I don't know who your disagreeing with, but Greenberg was never the CEO of Delta Airlines. Prior to being the owner of Cargo 360, he was the Director of Safety for Korean Air, before that the Director of Safety for some Airline in California. Prior to that he worked at Delta in some capacity I heard the story a long time ago but forget...

If you worked at Kalitta, you are hardly the go to expert on Cargo 360.

Try again. This time be specific on what you are disagreeing to, try using the quote icon...

CA Deplorable
07-04-2018, 04:50 AM
Im disagreeing with you! Ok I stand corrected..Greenberg was VP of Flt Ops for Delta...I never proclaimed to be an expert on 360. Everything I stated on 360 was true except Greensberg’s position at Delta. I am a long time friend of the VP of Flt Ops at 360 and even worked with him and DG on another start up project.. but there always has to be the one guy in the room and that would be you! Most guys that came through in the 80s and 90s in Non Sked knows the history of all these companies... it wasnt top secret!

Diesel8
07-05-2018, 07:02 AM
Not true. Cargo 360 had a lucrative Korean Air Contract that kept their 3 Freighter flying in excess of 200 hours a month. All CM's at Cargo 360 averaged flying around 70-80 hours a month. Cargo 360 was purchased by Oak Hills who then put in an order for 5 777's and then bought Southern and decided to combine the 2 carriers under the Southern certificate ran by the Neff's. -This is all fact.

Southern had a contract with Korean before Cargo 360 was even in existence. They even flew Cargo 360's contract for close to 6 months while they were stumbling on their proving runs.

Cargo 360 had no ACMI diversity, just the Korean contract which was due to the ties that management had with Korean. Delta was brought in to Korean to address safety issues. The ties were so strong that displaced Korean Air FE's flew their original Korean Pratt powered Classics. That was part of the deal that they had. Those engineers were later picked up by Southern as part of the merger.

In the ACMI world, movement from the Classics to the -400 was precipitated more by regulatory changes that had to do with aging airframes & wiring. Connie was able to run them longer than anyone else because of his resourcefulness. In addition to that, fuel economy and falling -400 lease rates were a factor as well.

jungle driver
07-05-2018, 06:35 PM
With Southern going to Atlas work rules will Southern guys still be home based? Will Southern get business class deadheads? What about Business class for commuting? 17 day work schedules?

dutch747
07-05-2018, 06:40 PM
I would disagree, having worked for Connie also..Connie is the master craftsman at making one mans junk another mans treasure. When we were flying those turd box DC-8-52s thru -63s Connie made a lot of money and outlasted all the Adhoc DC-8 operators of the era and the same with the classics...Ned Wallace was the driving force behind Connie getting rid of the Classics and it wasnt cause they werent making money.... its called a paradigm shift .. ask the Zoners if you dont understand..a CEO not willing to adjust.. until it was way too late. By the way K4 is a billion dollar in revenue privately held company... nobody to answer to but himself!!! And to note 360 had deep pockets and David Greenberg former Delta CEO as their leader..they def could have went places without SA INC in my honest opinion.

Im disagreeing with you! Ok I stand corrected..Greenberg was VP of Flt Ops for Delta...I never proclaimed to be an expert on 360. Everything I stated on 360 was true except Greensberg’s position at Delta.

But the one and ONLY thing you said about Cargo 360 is the Greenberg statement. Then you ramble out K2, have no idea what you are discussing here.

akfrtdwg 57
07-05-2018, 10:22 PM
With Southern going to Atlas work rules will Southern guys still be home based? Will Southern get business class deadheads? What about Business class for commuting? 17 day work schedules?

I haven't read the proposal but Atlas doesn't have Home Basing so if they got all of our rules then no they wouldn't have Home Basing anymore. Business class deadheading is for international flights or a duty day that exceeds 16 hours. So no business class for commuting unless you're paying for an upgrade.

CA Deplorable
07-07-2018, 12:23 PM
But the one and ONLY thing you said about Cargo 360 is the Greenberg statement. Then you ramble out K2, have no idea what you are discussing here.

You are truly the dumbest person on this forum. The crazy part is I know you. I guess the part about Oak Hill escaped you.. but typical DB fashion

dutch747
07-08-2018, 10:27 AM
You are truly the dumbest person on this forum. The crazy part is I know you. I guess the part about Oak Hill escaped you.. but typical DB fashion

OK, I think I see what is going on here. You are not disagreeing with me but with Diesel8.

And for the record, your spot on with your remarks about Oak Hills and Southern and Cargo 360 from the previous page. It was Diesel8 who is disagreeing with your post.

But you are absolutely right, I am the dumbest person on this forum.

Globe Master
07-09-2018, 05:36 AM
You are truly the dumbest person on this forum. The crazy part is I know you. I guess the part about Oak Hill escaped you.. but typical DB fashion

Were any of you even at Cargo 360? Always interesting to talk with the old Southern guys about what they thought Was going on at C360 prior to the merger..

Purpleanga
07-18-2018, 05:02 PM
I haven't read the proposal but Atlas doesn't have Home Basing so if they got all of our rules then no they wouldn't have Home Basing anymore. Business class deadheading is for international flights or a duty day that exceeds 16 hours. So no business class for commuting unless you're paying for an upgrade.

Since it’s the same work rules, will it still be 20 on 10 off?

Twin Wasp
07-18-2018, 08:10 PM
You would probably have to ask a Sourthern pilot. It isn't 100 percent the Atlas contract. I've heard it's about 85-90% the Atlas contract with some edits by management.

Birdsmash
07-18-2018, 09:02 PM
You would probably have to ask a Sourthern pilot. It isn't 100 percent the Atlas contract. I've heard it's about 85-90% the Atlas contract with some edits by management.

No one outside of those directly involved with the LOA negotiations or the Executitive Board & lawyers has even seen the management offer. After it is reviewed, the pilots have to yes or no. Anything else is just speculation. Management assuming they have reached a tentative offer is woefully optimistic.

jetlagging
07-19-2018, 01:00 PM
Anyone able to post the TA? Let’s see what kind of smoke and mirrors they are using, or maybe it really is a good deal? :eek:

atpcliff
07-19-2018, 06:24 PM
With Southern going to Atlas work rules will Southern guys still be home based? Will Southern get business class deadheads? What about Business class for commuting? 17 day work schedules?

Southern has Home Basing on the 777. On the 737 the base is CVG, and the jumpseat options are very limited.

Atlas has Gateway (or Alternate) Travel and Bases...quite complicated, and not as good as Home/Gateway Basing.

LineUpNWait
07-20-2018, 04:17 AM
What a surprise. Yet another Southern Air post overshadowed by all Atlas pilots who seem to know more. 🤦*♂️

727CA
07-20-2018, 03:11 PM
Does Southern only have 10 aircraft, according to their profile? And 254 pilots? That's a huge number of pilots per aircraft, just curious.

FR8Dog7
07-20-2018, 03:48 PM
What a surprise. Yet another Southern Air post overshadowed by all Atlas pilots who seem to know more. 🤦*♂️

You haven't realized by now the Cliff is a *********g expert on everything that has to do with aviation?

Birdsmash
07-20-2018, 04:57 PM
Does Southern only have 10 aircraft, according to their profile? And 254 pilots? That's a huge number of pilots per aircraft, just curious.

True. The 777 is 99% of the time flown with 3-4 pilots.

atpcliff
07-21-2018, 04:44 AM
Does Southern only have 10 aircraft, according to their profile? And 254 pilots? That's a huge number of pilots per aircraft, just curious.

I believe that Atlas manning goals are 22 pilots per 767, and 25 per 747.

DC2Airmail
10-04-2018, 06:40 AM
Hello,

Does anyone on the forum have experience as a Southern Air FO?
Specifically the 777.

- What is a typical 20 hour rotation like? ( hours per day, flight hours per day, work hours, example; 1 a.m. to 2 pm ,etc.

- destinations. ( cities " overniting in"), and any free time while there, or are you just too tired ?

- How many days to recover after 20 days on, when you start your 10 days off?

- Any estimates on upgrade time, health of company, career potential?

Thank you for any input !

JackStraw
10-04-2018, 10:17 AM
Hello,

Does anyone on the forum have experience as a Southern Air FO?
Specifically the 777.

- What is a typical 20 hour rotation like? ( hours per day, flight hours per day, work hours, example; 1 a.m. to 2 pm ,etc.

- destinations. ( cities " overniting in"), and any free time while there, or are you just too tired ?

- How many days to recover after 20 days on, when you start your 10 days off?

- Any estimates on upgrade time, health of company, career potential?

Thank you for any input !

You’re actually asking about what working 20 days in a row is like? Have some self-worth. Can you not get hired ANYwhere else?

plift
10-04-2018, 10:47 AM
And if you're really lucky you may get stuck with a line with an end of the month pattern rolling into a line with a beginning of the month pattern for a nice easy 40 days away from home.

Big Fred
10-13-2018, 03:18 AM
Hello,

Does anyone on the forum have experience as a Southern Air FO?
Specifically the 777.

- What is a typical 20 hour rotation like? ( hours per day, flight hours per day, work hours, example; 1 a.m. to 2 pm ,etc.

# You're on the road for the full 20 but that will change 17 in Jan as LOA gets implemented. Flying is the back side of the clock (take off at midnight and land at 2200 (10 to 13 hours away).

- destinations. ( cities " overniting in"), and any free time while there, or are you just too tired ?

# LA, Cincinnati , Leipzig Germany, Bahrain, Hong Kong, Dubai, Inchon, Miami, we are adding JFK. Most stops are 24-36 hrs, some longer and some min rest - it just depends. First half of the trip some folks are into going out, some are loners and just wing it solo. Second half most are tired.

- How many days to recover after 20 days on, when you start your 10 days off?

# For me 2-3 days as I TRY to stay on my home timezone. Your milage may vary.

- Any estimates on upgrade time, health of company, career potential?

# The company is Atlas and you can read lots on here about us. I wound speculate on upgrades as I think its a bit of a moving target depending on choices you make (777/737). If you're asking for my opinion I think it is a transitional airline, cut your teeth and get the experience you need for better pastures. I like the people I fly with and the Southern front office are good to work with. Scheduling can suck at times. I like it here because of the people but this isn't my final airline.

Thank you for any input !

#Hope this helps

Diesel8
10-13-2018, 06:04 AM
Your not doing yourself any favors coming to SAI. You are not going to get a lot of experience as you will not actually be doing a lot of flying. 737 lines average about 35 hours a month. 777 lines are a lot higher but due to the nature of the flying your not actually accumulating any meaningful flight experience, what your learning is how to get rest on a 15+ hour leg. As an FO you will constantly be fighting to maintain currency.

If you are a low time pilot and think this is your golden opportunity to get a leg up on your career you will be sadly mistaken. Pay your dues, and get some real experience.

Things are still changing here, certainly not for the better. The LOA is a bandaid on a battle wound. The benefits of it have yet to be realized, and are not as great as what many would think. There are some things that are even worse than what we had before. If there is one thing that Atlas excels at it's screwing pilots, and they did that with this LOA. Don't think that they were being generous.

The biggest thing at SAI is an atmosphere of extreme uncertainty, more so now than at any other time that I have experienced. There are bad things on the horizon.

DC2Airmail
10-15-2018, 06:14 PM
Thank you, great info !

DC2Airmail
10-15-2018, 06:16 PM
Hello,

Does anyone on the forum have experience as a Southern Air FO?
Specifically the 777.

- What is a typical 20 hour rotation like? ( hours per day, flight hours per day, work hours, example; 1 a.m. to 2 pm ,etc.

# You're on the road for the full 20 but that will change 17 in Jan as LOA gets implemented. Flying is the back side of the clock (take off at midnight and land at 2200 (10 to 13 hours away).

- destinations. ( cities " overniting in"), and any free time while there, or are you just too tired ?

# LA, Cincinnati , Leipzig Germany, Bahrain, Hong Kong, Dubai, Inchon, Miami, we are adding JFK. Most stops are 24-36 hrs, some longer and some min rest - it just depends. First half of the trip some folks are into going out, some are loners and just wing it solo. Second half most are tired.

- How many days to recover after 20 days on, when you start your 10 days off?

# For me 2-3 days as I TRY to stay on my home timezone. Your milage may vary.

- Any estimates on upgrade time, health of company, career potential?

# The company is Atlas and you can read lots on here about us. I wound speculate on upgrades as I think its a bit of a moving target depending on choices you make (777/737). If you're asking for my opinion I think it is a transitional airline, cut your teeth and get the experience you need for better pastures. I like the people I fly with and the Southern front office are good to work with. Scheduling can suck at times. I like it here because of the people but this isn't my final airline.

Thank you for any input !

#Hope this helps
Thank you, very helpful feedback !

JungleJetDriver
10-19-2018, 12:52 PM
I’d like to think positive about SAI and Atlas’ future. And I’m sure I’m just being naive and ignorant. But, doesn’t most history show a leapfrog effect on CBA’s? Couldn’t the SAI and Atlas Mec’s, along with the full support of each pilot group go to the negotiating table with a contract similar to purple or brown? Do the pilots not have the upper hand in today’s industry? Isn’t there something that can be done to get the company to see that the pilot groups only want a fair, industry leading contract? It’s business right? So when it becomes non-profitable to be a pilot for them you leave to where there is a profit to be made. They would.
If the company is truly dragging their knuckles on negotiations then the pilot groups must take action to force their hand to sign an acceptable contract or pull the plug. $#)+ or get off the pot.

NoJoy
10-19-2018, 01:09 PM
^^ Not a whole lot the pilot group (Atlas) can really do. They won’t be released to strike anytime soon. Negotiations can take years to finish. Add to that, the company is waiting for results on wheather to Arbitrate or not. If the company wins the lawsuit on Arbitration, the contract the pilots will get come from the Arbitrator. No vote from pilot group.
We should know more how things may turn out early next year.
As for a contract, maybe 2020/2021.
Anything close to UPS or Purple? No.

JungleJetDriver
10-19-2018, 01:14 PM
^^ Not a whole lot the pilot group (Atlas) can really do. They won’t be released to strike anytime soon. Negotiations can take years to finish. Add to that, the company is waiting for results on wheather to Arbitrate or not. If the company wins the lawsuit on Arbitration, the contract the pilots will get come from the Arbitrator. No vote from pilot group.
We should know more how things may turn out early next year.
As for a contract, maybe 2020/2021.
Anything close to UPS or Purple? No.

I truly hate to hear this. I do hope that the company loses the arbitration suit. And the pilots are able to vote on an outstanding contract.

DC8DRIVER
10-19-2018, 07:29 PM
I’d like to think positive about SAI and Atlas’ future. And I’m sure I’m just being naive and ignorant. But, doesn’t most history show a leapfrog effect on CBA’s? Couldn’t the SAI and Atlas Mec’s, along with the full support of each pilot group go to the negotiating table with a contract similar to purple or brown? Do the pilots not have the upper hand in today’s industry? Isn’t there something that can be done to get the company to see that the pilot groups only want a fair, industry leading contract? It’s business right? So when it becomes non-profitable to be a pilot for them you leave to where there is a profit to be made. They would.
If the company is truly dragging their knuckles on negotiations then the pilot groups must take action to force their hand to sign an acceptable contract or pull the plug. $#)+ or get off the pot.

Atlas and SAI are Teamsters with an EXCO (ALPA has the MEC's). And they work well together.

Pilots ARE leaving: about 200 in the last year alone - more than 10%. Been happening for several years, now.

The problem is the old anti-union contract that was originally forced on us back in the early 2000's. Bad merger language allowed the company to avoid having to sign a new contract - ever - as long as they purchased a new airline, no matter how small, every time the current contract came up for ratification.

Sucks.

suddenimpact
10-23-2018, 01:18 AM
Atlas and SAI are Teamsters with an EXCO (ALPA has the MEC's). And they work well together.

Pilots ARE leaving: about 200 in the last year alone - more than 10%. Been happening for several years, now.

The problem is the old anti-union contract that was originally forced on us back in the early 2000's. Bad merger language allowed the company to avoid having to sign a new contract - ever - as long as they purchased a new airline, no matter how small, every time the current contract came up for ratification.

Sucks.

I agree. It sucks.

Dealing with the union and the company locking up after we lost two lawsuits. One to be turned back to arbitration on the merger in one case and getting caught on a work action we telegraphed coming despite internal warnings among our own. Not the best leadership. Smells of the Polar/Atlas merger all over again. Should we be surprised?

The EXCO Chair now has extended his stay by getting an extra year and a half payout for his sub-level services past his retirement that he declared himself leader in chief despite 1224 IBT bylaw.

You can look that violation up under section 13 versus his announcements to the membership on Feb 13. *

zerozero
10-23-2018, 06:13 AM
I agree. It sucks.

Dealing with the union and the company locking up after we lost two lawsuits. One to be turned back to arbitration on the merger in one case and getting caught on a work action we telegraphed coming despite internal warnings among our own. Not the best leadership. Smells of the Polar/Atlas merger all over again. Should we be surprised?

The EXCO Chair now has extended his stay by getting an extra year and a half payout for his sub-level services past his retirement that he declared himself leader in chief despite 1224 IBT bylaw.

You can look that violation up under section 13 versus his announcements to the membership on Feb 13. *.

I agree it sucks.

I disagree we "got caught...telegraphing...a work action."

The statistician hired by the company to collect "data" that was used against us, admitted under oath he started his collection late in 2015. The merger games didn't begin until early 2016. The company was clearly anticipating something, anything, in order to drag this all out as long as they could. We could have all been company w#0res and the company STILL would have sued us. That's in their playbook.

I happen to think the current ExCo chair is the right person for this job. Most guys willing to do the job either get snowed (wined and dined by the company) or suck up and get off by "working with" company executives. We need a fighter, and you clearly have a different opinion, which is fine, but you can't tell me the ExCo chair isn't fighting. In fact, he'll never enjoy any gain or benefit when this fight is finally over.

DC8DRIVER
10-23-2018, 06:37 AM
I agree it sucks.

I disagree we "got caught...telegraphing...a work action."

The statistician hired by the company to collect "data" that was used against us, admitted under oath he started his collection late in 2015. The merger games didn't begin until early 2016. The company was clearly anticipating something, anything, in order to drag this all out as long as they could. We could have all been company w#0res and the company STILL would have sued us. That's in their playbook.

I happen to think the current ExCo chair is the right person for this job. Most guys willing to do the job either get snowed (wined and dined by the company) or suck up and get off by "working with" company executives. We need a fighter, and you clearly have a different opinion, which is fine, but you can't tell me the ExCo chair isn't fighting. In fact, he'll never enjoy any gain or benefit when this fight is finally over.

Agree with zerozero.

sudden, what would you be doing differently? What does your intimate knowledge of the situation tell you that would be the best course of action? Will you be running for office?

suddenimpact
10-25-2018, 09:59 PM
I agree it sucks.

I disagree we "got caught...telegraphing...a work action."

I happen to think the current ExCo chair is the right person for this job. Most guys willing to do the job either get snowed (wined and dined by the company) or suck up and get off by "working with" company executives. We need a fighter, and you clearly have a different opinion, which is fine, but you can't tell me the ExCo chair isn't fighting. In fact, he'll never enjoy any gain or benefit when this fight is finally over.

He is a fighter if you pledge allegiance to him and his paycheck, otherwise he will burn everyone in his way despite the memberships wishes and dues paying him. I wish otherwise, but his actions prove more than words leaving me and my crew hanging out to dry once he heard my name on the emergency line..

I could go on, but the last few IBT reports pretty well sum up as Atlas 1224 is well taken care of compared to past admins.

As an added note, we don't need to decertify IBT. As dirty as we get internally, it's better than ALPA and their infrastructure.

Agree with zerozero.

sudden, what would you be doing differently? What does your intimate knowledge of the situation tell you that would be the best course of action? Will you be running for office?

I have a lot. Feel free to PM me. Since the union has closed down the internal union web forums and 1224 local having to take up the slake, I don't want to give Atlas any more leverage. You know, the site BK has tried to shut down among the membership vs using the "the facebook page" of no one claims as their own..

Get real, that would stand up in court for three minutes.

No Land 3
10-26-2018, 06:00 AM
....
As an added note, we don't need to decertify IBT. As dirty as we get internally, it's better than ALPA and their infrastructure.
....

If the only exposure I had of ALPA was from my days at the regional, I would agree with you.
Being at K4, got to see what ALPA is really like, and you are delusional if you think a truck driving union has better resources available to pilots.
What I think really is going on is that Atlas enjoys being a big fish in a small pond, rather than being a small fish in the Pacific ocean.
With that said, I hope you guys get your new contract and you get what you want, near Fed Ex rates.

zerozero
10-26-2018, 06:32 AM
If the only exposure I had of ALPA was from my days at the regional, I would agree with you.
Being at K4, got to see what ALPA is really like, and you are delusional if you think a truck driving union has better resources available to pilots.
What I think really is going on is that Atlas enjoys being a big fish in a small pond, rather than being a small fish in the Pacific ocean.
With that said, I hope you guys get your new contract and you get what you want, near Fed Ex rates.

Obviously!

Who wouldn't?

What you don't point out, and apparently didn't learn in the regionals is that unless you're FedEx, DAL or UAL you're basically fish food in the Pacific Ocean.

No thanks.

https://image.shutterstock.com/image-vector/big-fish-eat-small-450w-281648951.jpg

DC8DRIVER
10-26-2018, 09:09 AM
If the only exposure I had of ALPA was from my days at the regional, I would agree with you.
Being at K4, got to see what ALPA is really like, and you are delusional if you think a truck driving union has better resources available to pilots.
What I think really is going on is that Atlas enjoys being a big fish in a small pond, rather than being a small fish in the Pacific ocean.
With that said, I hope you guys get your new contract and you get what you want, near Fed Ex rates.

I had 14 years under ALPA at my previous ACMI carrier and saw first hand just how they treat any airline other than Delta, FedEx, and United. A big fish in a small pond is much better than fish food in the ocean.

But it is difficult to clearly have a better picture of ALPA since they took over at K4, what, just about a year ago. And don't forget that it is a Teamster contract you are operating under.

I hope we get the mother of all contracts, too. I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships. And had K4 stayed under the Teamster banner, they would be in the same harbor as the rest of the DHL/Amazon ACMI carriers and make this a better, stronger collective team of pilot groups. I think it was a mistake and an insult for K4 to abandon Teamster after the contract, but the pilot group fell for the rantings of a few malcontents and their mis-information agenda.

We at Atlas are doing our best to forge a new contract under very difficult legal constraints and the rantings of the few who spout anti union/anti EXCO propaganda here need to be ignored. As we have seen, they have nothing constructive to add and only like to hear their own voices.

Lockheed
10-26-2018, 11:03 AM
I had 14 years under ALPA at my previous ACMI carrier and saw first hand just how they treat any airline other than Delta, FedEx, and United. A big fish in a small pond is much better than fish food in the ocean.

But it is difficult to clearly have a better picture of ALPA since they took over at K4, what, just about a year ago. And don't forget that it is a Teamster contract you are operating under.

I hope we get the mother of all contracts, too. I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships. And had K4 stayed under the Teamster banner, they would be in the same harbor as the rest of the DHL/Amazon ACMI carriers and make this a better, stronger collective team of pilot groups. I think it was a mistake and an insult for K4 to abandon Teamster after the contract, but the pilot group fell for the rantings of a few malcontents and their mis-information agenda.

We at Atlas are doing our best to forge a new contract under very difficult legal constraints and the rantings of the few who spout anti union/anti EXCO propaganda here need to be ignored. As we have seen, they have nothing constructive to add and only like to hear their own voices.

I was right there with you for 14 years
do you remember when Randy Babbitt wrote us a check for a cool million for SPC?
that doesn't sound like lack of support to me
wanna know what we got from teamsters during negotiations - ZERO - we even had to pay for our lawyer - boy that was money down a hole

As far as K4 going to ALPA - I can tell you as one who was deep inside the K4 1224 leadership, and same for ALPA today - 1224 and APA are a complete sh!t show in comparison. YMMV but that's what I have seen and see today

as far as the fish go - what your saying is because atlas is the big fish the little fish can go to he!! - got it

Birdsmash
10-26-2018, 11:30 AM
For those following along, I don’t believe any of the recent discussions in this thread involving Union/EXCO bashing has involved any SouthernAir pilot.

zerozero
10-26-2018, 12:33 PM
as far as the fish go - what your saying is because atlas is the big fish the little fish can go to he!! - got it

False.

All you need to do is look at how close the ExCos of Atlas, ABX and Southern work together.

I was ALPA once too. I've NEVER seen such solidarity. When Atlas and Polar were ALPA the two MEC Chairs were at each others' throats. ALPA National just let the whole thing rot to the core.

Look what that got us.

zerozero
10-26-2018, 12:34 PM
For those following along, I don’t believe any of the recent discussions in this thread involving Union/EXCO bashing has involved any SouthernAir pilot.

True!

Only thing to know about being hired at Southern is DON'T BE.

Lockheed
10-26-2018, 01:08 PM
False.

All you need to do is look at how close the ExCos of Atlas, ABX and Southern work together.

You realize there are 7 more air carriers in 1224 right?


and I was just using the statements that if you are not UA, DL or FDX in ALPA you get eaten and crapped on as a little fish
FALSE
and then
how good it is for atlas to be the big fish in their pond - ….


I can tell you this - if Atlas went back to ALPA you wouldn't be a little fish

zerozero
10-26-2018, 02:59 PM
You realize there are 7 more air carriers in 1224 right?


and I was just using the statements that if you are not UA, DL or FDX in ALPA you get eaten and crapped on as a little fish
FALSE
and then
how good it is for atlas to be the big fish in their pond - ….


I can tell you this - if Atlas went back to ALPA you wouldn't be a little fish

I do realize that.

And as much as I respect my colleagues at Allegiant and Cape Air, there just aren't a lot of examples that demonstrate what cooperation looks like. Neither are there any examples of one frustrating the efforts of the other.

Again, I have to point to Atlas, ABX and Southern for practical examples.

suddenimpact
10-27-2018, 01:19 AM
I had 14 years under ALPA at my previous ACMI carrier and saw first hand just how they treat any airline other than Delta, FedEx, and United. A big fish in a small pond is much better than fish food in the ocean.

But it is difficult to clearly have a better picture of ALPA since they took over at K4, what, just about a year ago. And don't forget that it is a Teamster contract you are operating under.

I hope we get the mother of all contracts, too. I believe that a rising tide lifts all ships. And had K4 stayed under the Teamster banner, they would be in the same harbor as the rest of the DHL/Amazon ACMI carriers and make this a better, stronger collective team of pilot groups. I think it was a mistake and an insult for K4 to abandon Teamster after the contract, but the pilot group fell for the rantings of a few malcontents and their mis-information agenda.

We at Atlas are doing our best to forge a new contract under very difficult legal constraints and the rantings of the few who spout anti union/anti EXCO propaganda here need to be ignored. As we have seen, they have nothing constructive to add and only like to hear their own voices.

******

I normally let him spew his BS but occasionally get tired of the outright lies he makes regularly and called him out on it recently on a crew call. I challenged a past email that he said he had been approved to be the ExCo chair to the end of his term by the E-board despite his earlier retirement. The BK and MG team immediately went into cover-up/BS mode which ended any of my follow up questions on the subject on that call. The Local 1224 President later in the call had to step in and correct what the ExCo chair (BK) said to mirror what I said on the BK lies. BK's TERM ENDS 07/19 due to his mandatory retirement and not being on the seniority list anymore. He will only be a business agent after that at our expense at 1224 to the end of his elected term unless the President decides to keep him on for something else. Section 13 of the bylaws for the full info. Of course, I guess the new ExCo Chair replacement could capitulate their authority to him. They would be stupid to do so in my opinion.

That is solely just one time to the many in the past due to having knowledge of what he speaks of. I can almost state that just about every crew call, emailing, committee call and new hire meeting he states something at least misleading if not just an outright lie. But you eat it up like a Trumper at a Trump rally despite third party fact checking saying otherwise.

This has gotten so bad that Southern ExCo and the Local President had to wait until BK was on vacation to reach a parity deal to help Southern crews out and not allow Atlas to use Southerns contract in an arbitration as the lower end of the scales if we ended up there. BK would have blown it up and they knew it. I won't get into the details of why since the company reads these posts. BK did everything he could to label derogatorily Southern guys and try to get them to vote it down using our membership to do so behind the scenes.

It has gotten bad enough that we have a group pushing for ALPA now due to our leaderships failings. I don't recommend this since I was one of the ones to lead us to their decertification in the first place. We just need to get rid of the 4 of the 7 bad ones in our leadership who got elected by our large influx of new hires who didn't know the players and history vs reality and facts. To tell the truth, there was not an election the last time due to the E-board at the last minute expanded our Atlas ExCo from 5 to 7 members right before the election. We coincidentally only had only 7 guys running for those 5 spots which was expanded to 7 and the 7 running got placed into those positions without a vote. So nobody could get bounced out of office in the election.

M0NG0
11-01-2018, 12:21 AM
I think the bottom line for anyone looking at a viably sustainable company with a good working environment and benefits ought to consider all this rhetoric as a warning that it may/may not be a long term solution to your financial and professional goals. Can it get better? Could it get better? Yes, however the employees have to force management to make it better. If they wanted to they could make Atlas/Polar/Southern a.k.a. "SouthPoleAss" an elite in the industry. In the interim, FREE type ratings for everyone. No money down, no obligation, cancel any time!

tomgoodman
11-01-2018, 12:49 PM
MOD WARNING:

Some of this rhetoric, especially the personal epithets, may cause the thread to close. We understand that Union infighting can be heated, but please don’t flamebait each other if you want the discussion to continue. Thanks.

WhipWhitaker
11-01-2018, 02:13 PM
I think the bottom line for anyone looking at a viably sustainable company with a good working environment and benefits ought to consider all this rhetoric as a warning that it may/may not be a long term solution to your financial and professional goals. Can it get better? Could it get better? Yes, however the employees have to force management to make it better. If they wanted to they could make Atlas/Polar/Southern a.k.a. "SouthPoleAss" an elite in the industry. In the interim, FREE type ratings for everyone. No money down, no obligation, cancel any time!

SouthPoleAss is gold and we sould submit to management for a name change along with the merger.

jetlagging
11-01-2018, 03:29 PM
SouthPoleAss is gold and we sould submit to management for a name change along with the merger.

Hobos might have no friends, but Southern Air pilots have friends up the :eek: Atl-ass!

M0NG0
11-01-2018, 06:07 PM
MOD WARNING:

Some of this rhetoric, especially the personal epithets, may cause the thread to close. We understand that Union infighting can be heated, but please don’t flamebait each other if you want the discussion to continue. Thanks.

In the words of Aristotle, in the Rhetoric, rhetoric is "... the faculty of observing in any given case the available means of persuasion".

JonnyKnoxville
11-20-2018, 04:45 AM
Article about how much fun it is working at Atlas, Southern, and ABX:

https://www.businessinsider.com/pilots-amazon-air-consider-quitting-survey-2018-11



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