Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




stlmikey
02-28-2018, 01:26 PM
I got extremely lucky and recently got a CJO with Delta & American, one week apart. I never thought I'd be in this position to have the option but need to make a decision soon. I will likely be commuting from STL, which neither airline has a crew base, so that's not much of a factor at the moment. Main deciding factors are QOL / days off, commutability, and employee morale. Any advice or opinions are very much appreciated.


Swakid8
02-28-2018, 01:28 PM
I got extremely lucky and recently got a CJO with Delta & American, one week apart. I never thought I'd be in this position to have the option but need to make a decision soon. I will likely be commuting from STL, which neither airline has a crew base, so that's not much of a factor at the moment. Main deciding factors are QOL / days off, commutability, and employee morale. Any advice or opinions is very much appreciated.


AA has a lot of senior pilots in STL who commute to DFW/ORD.


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cliffnd
02-28-2018, 01:35 PM
Apply and hope to get on with FedEx. [emoji23]


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Dorn
02-28-2018, 01:41 PM
I spent 10 years at Eagle and I currently work for Delta. I know the AA system very well and have sat on my fair share of AA jumpeats as well as just know their overall gist at AA. I think their an amazing company and one which I would also love to be with. That said Delta hired me first and I live in a base that has both for a HUB( just lucky where I live). Having spent some time at Delta I am incredibly honored to be here, but in all reality no more than I would have been to be at AA. I spent years commuting and that is the most debilitating endeavor to go through on a continuous basis. I personally believe that both companies will provide you lots of upwards mobility, pay, and all the other incentives you seek in your life.
I personally would chose the company that will allow me to NOT commute or if you chose to live in a location that isn't a base one that provides you the best commute opportunities ( commuting on a mainline and not relying on a regional lift) I hope that gives you a little help, and congrats!

Slats Extend
02-28-2018, 01:46 PM
Just comparing contracts, DELTA!

( I am UAL )

Al Czervik
02-28-2018, 01:52 PM
just comparing contracts, delta!

( i am ual )

samcro!!!!

Otterbox
02-28-2018, 02:44 PM
I got extremely lucky and recently got a CJO with Delta & American, one week apart. I never thought I'd be in this position to have the option but need to make a decision soon. I will likely be commuting from STL, which neither airline has a crew base, so that's not much of a factor at the moment. Main deciding factors are QOL / days off, commutability, and employee morale. Any advice or opinions are very much appreciated.

Congratulations,

Take the first class date available, then go to Delta when itís class opens up.

Andy
02-28-2018, 03:04 PM
I'd opt for AA. The reason is that you're going to gain seniority a lot quicker at AA than DAL due to retirements. Everything else can change over time.

Varsity
02-28-2018, 03:25 PM
AA, way more impending retirements. Plus Delta seems dead set on contracting out it's widebody flying. Will probably look like a regional soon.

ipdanno
02-28-2018, 04:55 PM
WN is growing in STL. So, take whichever CJO that will get you the 737 type first, then update your app for WN.
You'll be in the clover! 😜

aa73
02-28-2018, 05:40 PM
It all boils down to this: do you, or donít you, want to wear a hat for the rest of your career....? :D

All joking aside... Great choice to have. Both companies will give you a great career. Contracts come & go... todayís winner could be tomorrowís loser. You wonít know for sure until you retire.

Since you will be commuting from a city where neither airline has a base, my suggestion is to go with the first class date.

Yes, your seniority will go much further here at AA...but I also have to say that Delta has a much better company culture and better management/labor relations (at least, today... who knows 5, 10 years from now?)

Good luck and congrats!

NYC Pilot
02-28-2018, 06:21 PM
Good problem to have.. Based on retirements, I'd go with "something special in the air"... Prestige wise, Delta. Have friends at both and they love it.

Andy
02-28-2018, 07:56 PM
WN is growing in STL. So, take whichever CJO that will get you the 737 type first, then update your app for WN.
You'll be in the clover! 😜

Stuck flying a guppy for one's entire career? That's akin to the fourth Circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno.

busdriver12
02-28-2018, 08:28 PM
Seems like a no brainer. Delta for profit sharing and better work rules.

I don't work for either, so no dog in the fight.

cactusmike
02-28-2018, 09:18 PM
Great choice to have. The correct answer will come on the day you retire.

at6d
02-28-2018, 10:25 PM
Stuck flying a guppy for one's entire career? That's akin to the fourth Circle of Hell in Dante's Inferno.

Well...the culture at AA has some refining to do. I spent nearly a decade at Eagle and had no desire to repeat the mentality at AA. Iím sure itís better, but my regional days killed the desire.

So far WN has been fantastic to me.

Like others have said, itís a good problem to have. Donít wait too long thoughóseniority is the name of the game.

Ni hao
02-28-2018, 10:29 PM
Delta has hired something like 3500 in last 4 years mostly younger folks. You will never pass them on the list. AA has not hit the big numbers yet. I would go AA.

MoonShot
03-01-2018, 03:42 AM
AA since I commute out of STL too. 😁

Seriously though, Delta is a great place to work. I have no idea how many AA has hired recently, but the point about the massive numbers of new hires at Delta is a good one and would certainly factor into my decision.

Personally, Iím happy Iím at Delta and not AA. Staring down 4500 newhires @ Delta vs _____ @ AA, might sway my decision as a new guy though. Depends on your age I guess. Aside from that, Iíd say Delta.

Baradium
03-01-2018, 04:12 AM
AA since I commute out of STL too. ��

Seriously though, Delta is a great place to work. I have no idea how many AA has hired recently, but the point about the massive numbers of new hires at Delta is a good one and would certainly factor into my decision.

Personally, Iím happy Iím at Delta and not AA. Staring down 4500 newhires @ Delta vs _____ @ AA, might sway my decision as a new guy though. Depends on your age I guess. Aside from that, Iíd say Delta.

I feel like the employee group is much happier at DL than pretty much anywhere else. As far as the hiring, on the one hand it does mean you won't be as senior at the end of your career, but how about the career overall? I think anyone starting at Delta can to expect to have a good career, regardless of their age.

Something that no one has pointed out, it seems that AA has some interesting nonrev priorities now. At least the WO regionals are on equal priority to mainline and it's first come first served (check in time) for priority? I imagine that really changes the dynamics of commuting if flying when check in opens has that big of an impact on your chances of getting on the flight. Add in the talk of jumpseat priority changing to seniority and commuting sounds like a lot more stress than at DL.

CoefficientX
03-01-2018, 06:55 AM
Great choice to have. The correct answer will come on the day you retire.

^^^^^^^
This.

Past performance does not guarantee future results.

That being said, I would put an emphasis on company culture and company stability over seniority. Seniority is a wonderful thing but going to work in an adversarial environment is no fun at all.

Make the best choice based on information available today, thatís the best you can do. There is no crystal ball. And over time, resist the temptation to keep track of where you would have been had you chosen the other company.

Best of luck!

Sliceback
03-01-2018, 07:44 AM
If youíre putting Ďcultureí before Ďseniorityí youíre comparing a belief vs facts. The hard part is figuring out if the belief is true or just whining. The facts, and assumptions that come from that, are easier to analyze.

Cut through all the drama and most guys enjoy working at AA. The same is probably true at every major airline.

biigD
03-01-2018, 08:11 AM
What a nice problem to have. Congrats!

I was hell bent on Delta for a long time, but because life is what happens when youíre making other plans, Airways called me first. Iím not one to bounce around, so I let the Delta dream go pretty much right there. Whether that was a good call or not, as others have said Iíll let you know when I retire. :)

As much *****ing is as done on APC about AA (and a lot of it is certainly justified), itís been a fantastic place to work. The day to day job and the people I work with are great, at least in our NYC base. All things being equal Delta has the better contract and thatís where Iíd go, but itís like having your choice of banging various supermodels. Thereís really no way to go *wrong*.

swaayze
03-01-2018, 09:19 AM
Much like Slice said, if you go by internet buzz you’re getting a skewed picture. I browse here when off thinking my company/job (AA FO) sucks, then I go to work and it’s pretty darn good most days. Having said that, my observations of DAL are internet hearsay, so TIFWIW.

So you have the seniority issue, which drives virtually all other things. You should end up more senior at AA, but frankly the DAL experience seems to be front loaded significantly. By that I mean you will be paid more, quicker there by a significant margin, particularly if you want the quick upgrade. You want late career seniority? Maybe better to invest all that early extra money and retire earlier - I’d imagine that yields a much better schedule than top 10% at AA.

And, wrt AA, I am genuinely concerned with our ability to keep up with retirements. We seem to be trending lower on newhires four years into the hiring process (announced 900 for this year, now saying 700-750, but running an early pace of about 600). While current staffing seems ok, if they cannot manage to increase our training throughput very soon we will be forced to shrink due to retirements, negating that perceived advantage.

I would honestly think your best life would be facilitated by picking the one that has a very strong base in an area to which you’re willing to move and going (and moving) there (btw recent ORD news is concerning for AA). I have commuted for a few years on various occasions; was furloughed from USAir in 2001 and declined my 2007 recall because I valued family time and locale over career (yes, now I’m a 2014 hire at AA 2500 numbers junior to myself, so WTHDIK!? But I did see almost every one of my kids' award ceremonies, plays, games, etc. by not commuting and we had tons of help from and time with family by staying in DFW). But, if you really plan to commute for your entire career, then I would probably lean to Delta because their contract seems to be measurably better than ours and our union is lacking. I honestly don’t expect to be above them with our next contract.

Good luck, it’s a tough call. Either way you will have a great career!

cal73
03-01-2018, 10:20 AM
Big D.


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stlmikey
03-01-2018, 10:24 AM
Thank you all for taking the time to share your advice and opinions. It's helpful and appreciated. I know I can't go wrong with either airline and am extremely lucky to have the option. This helps to widen my base and exhaust all the research I can between the two airlines.

freezingflyboy
03-01-2018, 11:35 AM
I commute to a job at Delta and am very happy here. My friends at American love their job but hate their employer. And are jealous of my pay and contract.

mainlineAF
03-01-2018, 12:56 PM
Contracts come and go. All DL has over AA now is higher profit sharing and i would expect AA to take care of that in the next contract.

Those 4000 young guys delta has hired in the past 4 years will be senior to you for a long time. Iíd say AA.

Han Solo
03-01-2018, 01:56 PM
DAL pros:
Better compensation
Better work rules
No east vs. west drama
Significantly less debt
Less regional flying

AA pros:
Less hiring since 2014 and more retirements in the near future
More international flying
Leather jacket and no hat or double breasted coat

Post back after you retire and let us know which was the right choice

PRS Guitars
03-01-2018, 02:06 PM
No east vs. west drama


AA pros:

Leather jacket and no hat or double breasted coat


East west drama is pretty rare now in my experience. The integration has been very smooth. We arenít allowed to wear leather jackets anymore.

As someone else said, I think the benefit of going to DAL is front loaded (which is good with TVM). AAís seniority benefit will kick in in about 4 years and will be huge at the end of a career.

mainlineAF
03-01-2018, 04:32 PM
DAL pros:

Better compensation

Better work rules

No east vs. west drama

Significantly less debt

Less regional flying



AA pros:

Less hiring since 2014 and more retirements in the near future

More international flying

Leather jacket and no hat or double breasted coat



Post back after you retire and let us know which was the right choice



Hourly rates are the same. Profit sharing at DL is the only thing better. That should be addressed in the next contract in a year or two so the compensation will pretty much be equal.

What work rules are better? AA will have average calendar day soon. That was the big issue and its fixed.

More regional flying at aa could be seen as a good thing if the pilot shortage causes them to bring regional flying in house. AA would need a lot more bodies. Delta has brought a lot in house already so the hiring for that wonít help a new guy bc theyíre all senior to them.

There is no east west drama. Go to work. Go home. Get paid. ďCulturalĒ issues are an internet thing.

I hope you guess right!

ShyGuy
03-01-2018, 06:30 PM
(btw recent ORD news is concerning for AA)

What happened/is happening?

Baradium
03-01-2018, 08:36 PM
What happened/is happening?

Probably referencing the spat with AA claiming the city is favoring UAL in the reconstruction plan.

marcal
03-02-2018, 03:13 AM
DAL pros:
Better compensation
Better work rules
No east vs. west drama
Significantly less debt
Less regional flying

AA pros:
Less hiring since 2014 and more retirements in the near future
More international flying
Leather jacket and no hat or double breasted coat

Post back after you retire and let us know which was the right choice

Leather jacket as a pro? Easily the dumbest most unprofessional item I've ever seen on a pilot. We're essentially wearing suits. When's the last time you saw any professional in any business rock up in a suit and a leather jacket. Rant over.

sherpster
03-02-2018, 03:21 AM
Leather jacket as a pro? Easily the dumbest most unprofessional item I've ever seen on a pilot. We're essentially wearing suits. When's the last time you saw any professional in any business rock up in a suit and a leather jacket. Rant over.

Not sure your argument holds water. If we are basing our uniform on what other professionals wear then we wouldnt be running around in short sleeve shirts and ties. We also wouldnt be wearing a hat indoors.

Anyways, American all the way. 52% of the seniority list gone in the next 9 years. That is a fact.

flyallnite
03-02-2018, 05:35 AM
It may end up not being a problem, but AA has quite a lot of debt on it's books vs DL. I'd take a look at both companies annual reports for a look at corporate health.

Mover
03-02-2018, 08:07 AM
Leather jacket as a pro? Easily the dumbest most unprofessional item I've ever seen on a pilot. We're essentially wearing suits. When's the last time you saw any professional in any business rock up in a suit and a leather jacket. Rant over.

Leather jacket is gone at AA.

As to the OP, go to DAL. Better contract, better union, better pilot group, better work rules, and higher pay.

APA is a weak union with too many terrorist factions holding QOL hostage for their special interest items. It won't get better until the top half of the list retires. AA has no issues taking advantage of this group.

In the long run, DAL is stronger financially than AA. You may see more retirements at AA, but that may not matter in the long run.

viper548
03-02-2018, 10:00 AM
Maybe a delta guy can confirm this, it sounds like premium trips are plentiful. American goes to great lengths to avoid premium. Delta seems like a better job right now. AA has the seniority advantage but I think deltas better contract makes up for it. Plus delta has faster upgrade and the commute from stl is probably easier at delta.
It is a completely different job living in base. If you can move to any of the bases go to the corresponding airline and donít look back.

trustbutverify
03-02-2018, 10:51 AM
Maybe a delta guy can confirm this, it sounds like premium trips are plentiful. American goes to great lengths to avoid premium. Delta seems like a better job right now. AA has the seniority advantage but I think deltas better contract makes up for it. Plus delta has faster upgrade and the commute from stl is probably easier at delta.
It is a completely different job living in base. If you can move to any of the bases go to the corresponding airline and donít look back.

False - the premium trip availability is not what some would have you believe. With the new contract, the company can have an immediate plus up on their reserve availability to cover trips during IROPS with recovery flying obligations should a line holder's trip get cnx'd or modified due to those IROPS.

Ar Pilot
03-02-2018, 10:54 AM
Hourly rates are the same. Profit sharing at DL is the only thing better. That should be addressed in the next contract in a year or two so the compensation will pretty much be equal.

What work rules are better? AA will have average calendar day soon. That was the big issue and its fixed.

More regional flying at aa could be seen as a good thing if the pilot shortage causes them to bring regional flying in house. AA would need a lot more bodies. Delta has brought a lot in house already so the hiring for that wonít help a new guy bc theyíre all senior to them.


Minimum days off, premium flying and reserve work rules are more favorable at Delta. (from talking with friends at AA)

Touting more regional flying as a plus? :confused:

mainlineAF
03-02-2018, 11:00 AM
Minimum days off, premium flying and reserve work rules are more favorable at Delta. (from talking with friends at AA)



Touting more regional flying as a plus? :confused:



Minimum days off for reserves is 12/13 at AA. Think thatís the same at DL. For lineholders itís not a factor bc you get 5:15 a day once ACD kicks in.

Premium flying is available at AA. Apparently a lot less premium at dL now re the poster above. Edge to DL.

Did you not read the sentence after I wrote more regional flying could be a plus at AA? A lot of it has come back in house at dl already so the hiring for that has already happened. If AA is forced to do the same theyíd have to hire more than theyíre planning. Thatís a plus for the guys hired before that happens.

A10Penny
03-02-2018, 11:26 AM
I got extremely lucky and recently got a CJO with Delta & American, one week apart. I never thought I'd be in this position to have the option but need to make a decision soon. I will likely be commuting from STL, which neither airline has a crew base, so that's not much of a factor at the moment. Main deciding factors are QOL / days off, commutability, and employee morale. Any advice or opinions are very much appreciated.

I was in a similar situation 1.5 years ago (AA gave me a class date while I was in Delta indoc). QoL was by far my #1 concern. I left Delta for AA because I wanted to live in Tucson and be based in PHX, and because the greater retirements looming at AA. Both factors weighed heavily in my decision, so I left Delta. Not having to wear a hat is a bonus!

One thing I learned is that when you consider communting, try to get very specific intel. For example, I thought that communting PHX to LAX would be easier than TUS-LAX. However, there are so many people trying to do it, that it offsets the greater number of flights and broader time ranges. Everyone I have talked to doing that commute hate it, but TUS-LAX was easy.

It wasn't all rosy, though. I had to spend the night in LAX once or twice a month (including the crew room twice when there were no close hotels available), and the last flight left around 7pm. In contrast, the last LAX-PHX flight was after 10pm.

I also recommend getting specific data on the seniority in the bases you want to end up at. They vary a lot, and that will make a big QoL difference. Investigate things like how easy is it to pick up, trade and/or drop trips, how much premium available in a base, how many redeyes, how many commutable trips, etc.

All that said, we don't know what bases will close, how contracts will evolve, etc. Both jobs will be great, and I won't second guess my decision. (Although it does sting a little when profit sharing time hits).

FWIW, while there are plenty of things that need attention in our contract, the pilots I fly with don't let it impact our trips. Same thing goes for the different tribes at AA. The crews have been great!

bizzlepilot
03-02-2018, 02:22 PM
I'd opt for AA. The reason is that you're going to gain seniority a lot quicker at AA than DAL due to retirements. Everything else can change over time.

A buddy of mine was in the exact same position, AA class date one month out, DAL was a month and change. He decided to go with AA because of the retirements. My thought is that you're good to go either way, both are great companies.

N10DJ
03-02-2018, 02:51 PM
Great problem to have.. but honestly most the arguments people will make donít mean much unless you have less than 10 years till retirement..... culture, pay, contacts, bases, economy, fleet sizes, routes ( maybe not as much but to a certain degree), management, will all be different come 7-8 years from now. Itís a forever changing industry.

The way I see it, the best choice is the one you think will be around for your entire career. If you think they both will make it the distance, then go with the one that gives you the best QOL. usually that means whichever one has a base or even bases (just in case one of them closes) that you wouldnít mind living in or commuting to. Good luck!

My ignorant/biased decision...... AA, they have a cool paint job :D

PilotJ3
03-02-2018, 08:10 PM
Minimum days off for reserves is 12/13 at AA. Think thatís the same at DL. For lineholders itís not a factor bc you get 5:15 a day once ACD kicks in.

Premium flying is available at AA. Apparently a lot less premium at dL now re the poster above. Edge to DL.

Did you not read the sentence after I wrote more regional flying could be a plus at AA? A lot of it has come back in house at dl already so the hiring for that has already happened. If AA is forced to do the same theyíd have to hire more than theyíre planning. Thatís a plus for the guys hired before that happens.

Rsv days at delta is different. Minimum is 12 days, but...

If is a 31 day month = 1 extra day
Average Line Value below 75:30 = 1 extra day
20% extra staffing in category = 1 extra day.

It can go up to 15 days in a 31day month. Usually is between 13 and 14 days off on RSV.

Han Solo
03-03-2018, 03:00 AM
I listed advantages in my previous reply but forgot to add one point which would be my deciding factor. If one of the companies has a domicile in a place where I'd love to live, that would be my choice hands down. On average, working for any major airline is going to pay (significantly) more and you'll work less than any full time flying gig you've previously held.

If you're a commuter you are likely giving back anything from 4-8 days/month depending on your commute and tolerance for risk. If you're in base you will have the chance to make the job even more financially lucrative by being available for short notice premium trips or bidding up a category where you wouldn't mind sitting reserve from your couch.

Without a crystal ball, living in a place I like would be my #1 priority if I had calls from multiple legacy airlines.

Sliceback
03-03-2018, 09:43 AM
Iíve commuted. Itís an additional 6-7 hrs time lost before the trip and 4 hrs after the trip for commutable trips.

Living in a junior base that has w/b flying to Europe and Asia is the best deal. But Ďjuniorí and ĎAsiaí are oxymorons. So pick Europe trips as the next best option.

crewdawg
03-04-2018, 01:39 AM
Iíve commuted. Itís an additional 6-7 hrs time lost before the trip and 4 hrs after the trip for commutable trips.

Living in a junior base that has w/b flying to Europe and Asia is the best deal. But Ďjuniorí and ĎAsiaí are oxymorons. So pick Europe trips as the next best option.

This right here! I left AAL to leave behind a commute. If I wanted to live in CLT/DFW/MIA/etc..., I would have stayed at AAL. At DAL, I'm able to live within short call range of a big/relatively junior base that has a decent amount of WB flying. This has allowed me to jump to the WB way junior (90+%) and still have an amazing QOL. I'll likely jump to captain much quicker than if I had to commute as well. Either way this means a significant increase in career earnings AND time at home. I understand for some it's too late as roots have been planted, but not commuting feels like an entirely different job.

Sliceback
03-04-2018, 06:08 AM
At AA we throw stones at living in DFW but there are lots of nice areas to live very near to the airport (10,15,20 minutes). Itís a completely different life than living 1,2,3 hrs away by car and light years away commuting.

iHateAMR
03-06-2018, 02:49 PM
Look at the financials of the two carriers. Look at innovation or lack thereof. Seniority may move faster at AA, but it wonít mean much if the company ceases to exist. Delta has historically been conservative and it has served them well. AA has been up big, but also down big, with morale to show.

Sliceback
03-06-2018, 04:19 PM
DLís fleet age was 17.0 yrs last summer. AAís was 10.8 yrs.
That gap doesnít come for free. What will DLís balance sheet look like when they start updating their fleet and reduce it from its industry lagging position? Itís all a trade off in choosing one path over another from a corporate management decision.

TransWorld
03-06-2018, 05:42 PM
Thank you, Slice. Few have pointed out these buisiness decisions. Newer fleet comes with additional purchasing costs. Older fleets come with more maintenance and fuel consumption. Eventually, older fleets have to be replaced.

Two major airlines have different strategies at the moment. (Things can change over time.) Which is better will be played out over the next few years.

WhiskeyDelta
03-06-2018, 06:46 PM
DLís fleet age was 17.0 yrs last summer. AAís was 10.8 yrs.

That gap doesnít come for free. What will DLís balance sheet look like when they start updating their fleet and reduce it from its industry lagging position? Itís all a trade off in choosing one path over another from a corporate management decision.



No disputing those facts, however, Iíve heard the 88s are paid for by the 9th or 10th of each month and the rest of the month is pure profit. The one department of ours that is consistently forgotten about and underestimated is our TechOps. Thereís a reason they were selected by Pratt to overhaul over 5000 engines as a part of our NB Airbus deal in December.

Also, because of our lower debt we have a better credit rating than similar airlines which in turn helps with lower interest rates on new jets. No doubt our debt may increase in the next 5-10 years but it wonít be dramatic, if things stay the course like it seems to be.

PilotJ3
03-07-2018, 06:20 AM
No disputing those facts, however, Iíve heard the 88s are paid for by the 9th or 10th of each month and the rest of the month is pure profit. The one department of ours that is consistently forgotten about and underestimated is our TechOps. Thereís a reason they were selected by Pratt to overhaul over 5000 engines as a part of our NB Airbus deal in December.

Also, because of our lower debt we have a better credit rating than similar airlines which in turn helps with lower interest rates on new jets. No doubt our debt may increase in the next 5-10 years but it wonít be dramatic, if things stay the course like it seems to be.

I agree, tech ops makes money, replacement for the 88s are on the way and I think we will stay on the 8-10 billion debt. Even if we go up to 15, still half way of UAL and AA.

Marlin
03-08-2018, 02:37 AM
Our CEO(AA) addressed the debt situation and basically said ď why take $ that is invested at 8% and pay cash for airplanes , when you can leave it alone and finance them for 3%Ē I suppose we will see if that is a sound biz decision !

Han Solo
03-08-2018, 04:09 AM
Our CEO(AA) addressed the debt situation and basically said ď why take $ that is invested at 8% and pay cash for airplanes , when you can leave it alone and finance them for 3%Ē I suppose we will see if that is a sound biz decision !

How much cash does AA have invested at 8%?

full of luv
03-08-2018, 09:39 AM
How much cash does AA have invested at 8%?

Maybe theyíre counting their anticipated returns on their stock buybacks.

qball
03-08-2018, 11:54 AM
AA has been around a loooong time. They ainít going anywhere. DAL could pay cash for airplanes with all the stock buybacks they have done.

Baradium
03-08-2018, 11:57 AM
AA has been around a loooong time. They ainít going anywhere. DAL could pay cash for airplanes with all the stock buybacks they have done.

Not to say anything about AA's future, but that line smacks of a lack of knowledge of the history of this industry.

There are plenty of reasons to say a company isn't going anywhere... they've "been around a long time" is not one of them.

WhiskeyDelta
03-08-2018, 12:23 PM
AA has been around a loooong time. They ainít going anywhere. DAL could pay cash for airplanes with all the stock buybacks they have done.


As could AA with the $9B buyback program they started in 2014.

qball
03-08-2018, 12:27 PM
Not to say anything about AA's future, but that line smacks of a lack of knowledge of the history of this industry.

There are plenty of reasons to say a company isn't going anywhere... they've "been around a long time" is not one of them.

UAL has had some of the most inept management in the last 30 years. They are still here. Many airlines have had equally inept management. They are still here. I donít know how long you youíve been in the business but in the right now snapshot, AA is probably as good a bet as any. But thatís just my 30+ years in this business. What do I know.

Sliceback
03-08-2018, 12:38 PM
In the ‘right now snapshot’ when in the past has the industry ever looked like it does right now?

That’s not predicting any airline’s future is guaranteed but an evaluation of the relative, and probable risk, has to include how much the industry has changed from 5-10 yrs ago.

The industry, and life, require risk assessment and prudence. But a number at a Big 3 airline right now is probably the safest bet in the history of the airline business.

qball
03-08-2018, 12:45 PM
In the Ďright now snapshotí when in the past has the industry ever looked like it does right now?

Thatís not predicting any airlineís future is guaranteed but an evaluation of the relative, and probable risk, has to include how much the industry has changed from 5-10 yrs ago.

The industry, and life, require risk assessment and prudence. But a number at a Big 3 airline right now is probably the safest bet in the history of the airline business.

I would agree with that. The right now snapshot might be largely different in 5 years. (Ask me how I know).
Having said that. I would take the earliest class date offered unless a home base option is available at one over the other. Even then I would still grab the first brass ring and jump ship if the home base airline offered. Just my opinion.

Given the current climate, I still think AA is a long term player as they have been. DAL as well.

Baradium
03-08-2018, 01:21 PM
UAL has had some of the most inept management in the last 30 years. They are still here. Many airlines have had equally inept management. They are still here. I donít know how long you youíve been in the business but in the right now snapshot, AA is probably as good a bet as any. But thatís just my 30+ years in this business. What do I know.

I said I wasn't saying anything about AA's prospects, just that the phrase "they've been around a really long time" is meaningless when it comes to an airline's success. Plenty of "really long time" airlines aren't around anymore.


I get it, you're touchy about AA... but I only talked about using that phrase lightly like that, not AA's prospects in and of itself. You should have seen enough of that in 30+ years.

qball
03-08-2018, 01:26 PM
I said I wasn't saying anything about AA's prospects, just that the phrase "they've been around a really long time" is meaningless when it comes to an airline's success. Plenty of "really long time" airlines aren't around anymore.


I get it, you're touchy about AA... but I only talked about using that phrase lightly like that, not AA's prospects in and of itself. You should have seen enough of that in 30+ years.

I have. Not touchy about AA. Even worked there and left for what I thought was a better option for me. My point is in the current climate, I personally wouldnít pass up AA given no other option as I think their long term prospects as good as any of the big 3. If both choices are on the table, pick the one with a home base option. I will stick with my assertion that AA is a long term player as are the other two.

Han Solo
03-09-2018, 05:29 AM
UAL has had some of the most inept management in the last 30 years. They are still here. Many airlines have had equally inept management. They are still here. I don’t know how long you you’ve been in the business but in the right now snapshot, AA is probably as good a bet as any. But that’s just my 30+ years in this business. What do I know.

Probably about as much as 30+ year TWA, Pan Am, and Eastern pilots before their worlds came to a screeching halt. Not flinging mud, just my interpretation of what is likely a fact most of us don't want to acknowledge.

full of luv
03-09-2018, 09:34 AM
Probably about as much as 30+ year TWA, Pan Am, and Eastern pilots before their worlds came to a screeching halt. Not flinging mud, just my interpretation of what is likely a fact most of us don't want to acknowledge.

Those companies had to deal with going from complete regulation to the free market.
If the ban is ever lifted on cabotage, you will see a similar seismic shift in the pilot world that happened in the early 80's.
The only thing that is completely predictable is unpredictability.
Good luck to us all, and support ALPA PAC.

qball
03-09-2018, 02:38 PM
Probably about as much as 30+ year TWA, Pan Am, and Eastern pilots before their worlds came to a screeching halt. Not flinging mud, just my interpretation of what is likely a fact most of us don't want to acknowledge.

Pan Am, Twa, Eastern and others were victims of deregulation (and the introduction of LCCs) At the time they were dying AA was going to a 500 plane fleet (heavily domestic) and hiring 120 pilots/month. AA was there then...they adapted and survived where some didnít. I suspect they have as good a chance of being around in the future as UAL, DAL.

iHateAMR
03-12-2018, 06:41 PM
Pan Am, Twa, Eastern and others were victims of deregulation (and the introduction of LCCs) At the time they were dying AA was going to a 500 plane fleet (heavily domestic) and hiring 120 pilots/month. AA was there then...they adapted and survived where some didnít. I suspect they have as good a chance of being around in the future as UAL, DAL.

American Airlines Is Still Wasting Investors' Moneyhttps://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-still-wasting-investors-010500477.html

So much for adapting!

Han Solo
03-15-2018, 09:03 AM
Pan Am, Twa, Eastern and others were victims of deregulation (and the introduction of LCCs) At the time they were dying AA was going to a 500 plane fleet (heavily domestic) and hiring 120 pilots/month. AA was there then...they adapted and survived where some didnít. I suspect they have as good a chance of being around in the future as UAL, DAL.

You're making my point for me. None of those guys saw deregulation and the following carnage coming. Maybe the next 50 years will be nothing but roses but more than likely something will happen to make all the know-it-alls scratch their heads and say WTF was THAT?

qball
03-15-2018, 01:00 PM
You're making my point for me. None of those guys saw deregulation and the following carnage coming. Maybe the next 50 years will be nothing but roses but more than likely something will happen to make all the know-it-alls scratch their heads and say WTF was THAT?

You could well be right. I guess if any of us could predict those kind of thing we should probably be doing something other than flying airplanes. I will still maintain that a job with AA is no less a risk than a job with UA or DL. Time will tell and I suppose this industry will be no less a rollercoaster than it has been. Given the OP question...again for me it would come down to a home base option if one is available.

full of luv
03-16-2018, 03:58 PM
You're making my point for me. None of those guys saw deregulation and the following carnage coming. Maybe the next 50 years will be nothing but roses but more than likely something will happen to make all the know-it-alls scratch their heads and say WTF was THAT?

50 years is a long time.... Amazon could invent a transporter machine next year and everything would change...... or age 75 for retirement, or cabotage allowed, or martian attack. Capitalism ensures that companies are continuously looking at ways to do things cheaper/better/with less labor so this job (at the major level at least) will always have potential wolves nipping at your heels.
People need to fly from LA to Boston for $99 each way!

Han Solo
03-18-2018, 07:50 AM
50 years is a long time.... Amazon could invent a transporter machine next year and everything would change...... or age 75 for retirement, or cabotage allowed, or martian attack. Capitalism ensures that companies are continuously looking at ways to do things cheaper/better/with less labor so this job (at the major level at least) will always have potential wolves nipping at your heels.
People need to fly from LA to Boston for $99 each way!

Wait until the public accepts a single pilot up front. I'd bet a beer it won't take 50 years.

WHACKMASTER
03-18-2018, 10:07 AM
Wait until the public accepts a single pilot up front. I'd bet a beer it won't take 50 years.

The status quo of two pilots upfront is safe for another 20-30 years especially on the PAX front. Iíd bet a case of beer on that.

iHateAMR
03-18-2018, 04:10 PM
The status quo of two pilots upfront is safe for another 20-30 years especially on the PAX front. Iíd bet a case of beer on that.

With FedEx and UPS recently spending billions on new 70s/80s technology jets, and no single pilot jet of that scale out there. You can bet it wonít hit cargo in 20-30 years either. Itís more about proven reliability than cutting edge in cargo.

mainlineAF
03-18-2018, 05:50 PM
Wait until the public accepts a single pilot up front. I'd bet a beer it won't take 50 years.



The economic incentive really only exists when going from 2 pilots up front to none. Or so Iíve been told.

PRS Guitars
03-18-2018, 06:44 PM
The economic incentive really only exists when going from 2 pilots up front to none. Or so Iíve been told.

And youíre still going to need pilots, theyíd just not be in the plane, and maybe monitoring a few planes at a time. Another example, RPAís in the Air Force are not ďdronesĒ they are ďremotely pilotedĒ and they have not just a pilot but a sensor operator, so what 1 guy does in the F16 is done by 2 people in an RPA. I just donít see this as a major cost savings, not for a long time at least.

Sniper66
03-20-2018, 06:16 AM
I got extremely lucky and recently got a CJO with Delta & American, one week apart. I never thought I'd be in this position to have the option but need to make a decision soon. I will likely be commuting from STL, which neither airline has a crew base, so that's not much of a factor at the moment. Main deciding factors are QOL / days off, commutability, and employee morale. Any advice or opinions are very much appreciated.





Delta for sure

AC560
03-23-2018, 05:25 PM
Have you taken a real look at Great Lakes?

C130driver
03-24-2018, 05:39 AM
Wait until the public accepts a single pilot up front. I'd bet a beer it won't take 50 years.

Youíve got driverless cars killing people, save your beer.

Sniper66
03-24-2018, 09:18 AM
I got extremely lucky and recently got a CJO with Delta & American, one week apart. I never thought I'd be in this position to have the option but need to make a decision soon. I will likely be commuting from STL, which neither airline has a crew base, so that's not much of a factor at the moment. Main deciding factors are QOL / days off, commutability, and employee morale. Any advice or opinions are very much appreciated.






Delta hands down

propbandit
04-03-2018, 04:20 PM
I got extremely lucky and recently got a CJO with Delta & American, one week apart. I never thought I'd be in this position to have the option but need to make a decision soon. I will likely be commuting from STL, which neither airline has a crew base, so that's not much of a factor at the moment. Main deciding factors are QOL / days off, commutability, and employee morale. Any advice or opinions are very much appreciated.

So have you made a decision yet?

Laker24
04-03-2018, 07:55 PM
Delta hands down

If it was me I would go AA. Delta has been hiring a massive amount of pilots over the last 4 years. AA is just starting to ramp up. Over 7,000 retirements in the next 10 years at AA.

stlmikey
04-04-2018, 07:52 AM
So have you made a decision yet?

Yes, I went with AA. It was a really tough call to make but for my long term plans AA's bases and number of retirements played a big factor. I'm optimistic the contract differences will average out over the years and know that either airline is going to be a great place to work. I really do appreciate everyone's input in this thread.

qball
04-04-2018, 08:06 AM
Yes, I went with AA. It was a really tough call to make but for my long term plans AA's bases and number of retirements played a big factor. I'm optimistic the contract differences will average out over the years and know that either airline is going to be a great place to work. I really do appreciate everyone's input in this thread.

Congratulations......

sherpster
04-04-2018, 09:21 AM
Yes, I went with AA. It was a really tough call to make but for my long term plans AA's bases and number of retirements played a big factor. I'm optimistic the contract differences will average out over the years and know that either airline is going to be a great place to work. I really do appreciate everyone's input in this thread.

Good decision

at6d
04-04-2018, 03:49 PM
Congrats.

Wind check?

propbandit
04-10-2018, 06:51 PM
Thread bump.

I have found myself in the same position as the OP. AA vs DAL.

I am a commuter to both airlines as I will not be moving to a domicile.

Can someone give any insight into where seniority numbers lie for each airline, specifically:

1. Junior WB FO

2. Junior NB CA 737/A320/1 (I'd prefer to exclude the 190/MD-80/88 since they're going away for both airlines)

3. Junior WB CA

Thanks in advance.

Dolphinflyer
04-10-2018, 07:19 PM
Thread bump.

I have found myself in the same position as the OP. AA vs DAL.

I am a commuter to both airlines as I will not be moving to a domicile.

Can someone give any insight into where seniority numbers lie for each airline, specifically:

1. Junior WB FO

2. Junior NB CA 737/A320/1 (I'd prefer to exclude the 190/MD-80/88 since they're going away for both airlines)

3. Junior WB CA

Thanks in advance.

As an AA guy, there are a lot of "if's" with that request. We haven't hit the massive movement for retirements yet, but even in the last bid run, it looks like it's happening. Widebody CA was stagnant forever, and then "boom" it moves 500+ numbers junior in 1 bid. WB FO? Again, a lot of stuff hitting now. Former USAir CLT and PHL CA slots are senior as ####. When that hits along with the 787 replacement, it tends to drive stuff real junior. There is another dynamic. IF the CA job ends up going real junior, does it suck or is the FO job that good? Could be a premium/green slip pay issue or a suck CA reserve job.

Wish I had the crystal ball. Trying to pick the right horse is a choice with some risk. In 1990 I sat at 2am with a fellow FE newhire who was junior to me and 30 years older. Shaking his head, he said, "Yup, 1966, I had 3 job offers, Delta, American and Branniff".

If there was a APC message board in 1990, 98.5% of the posts would have told me to ditch UPS go to AA.

Good luck with your choice. Not sure how I would I handle a 200# at Brown vs my current number equal to the GDP of 1/2 the worlds nations. :D

vroll1800
04-11-2018, 06:03 AM
As an AA guy, there are a lot of "if's" with that request. ///>>>

Wish I had the crystal ball. Trying to pick the right horse is a choice with some risk. In 1990 I sat at 2am with a fellow FE newhire who was junior to me and 30 years older. Shaking his head, he said, "Yup, 1966, I had 3 job offers, Delta, American and Branniff".

If there was a APC message board in 1990, 98.5% of the posts would have told me to ditch UPS go to AA.

Good luck with your choice. Not sure how I would I handle a 200# at Brown vs my current number equal to the GDP of 1/2 the worlds nations. :D

1) Why did 1990 classmate pick Branniff ?
2) Was this 1990 class UPS or AAL ? (AAL actually hired a 55 plus guy?)

3) Not sure if you went to UPS first, then left for AAL, or if you had simultaneous offers from both. Either way, I think you'd handle having a low 3 digit number at UPS quite well. I also recognize that not everyone is willing to wade through the horse manure for the possibility of green grass either.

AZFlyer
04-11-2018, 08:21 AM
1) Why did 1990 classmate pick Branniff ?

I think that was in 1966...

vroll1800
04-11-2018, 08:36 AM
I think that was in 1966...

Grammar/reading comprehension Nazi time.

1) Read 2nd sentence, 2nd paragraph in my quote which begins "In 1990 I sat at 2am with a fellow FE..."
2) In 1966, fellow FE had 3 job offers from Delta, American, and Braniff. (Dang, I wasn't quick enough to edit original BNF spelling error.)

Ar Pilot
04-11-2018, 03:48 PM
Thread bump.

I have found myself in the same position as the OP. AA vs DAL.

I am a commuter to both airlines as I will not be moving to a domicile.

Can someone give any insight into where seniority numbers lie for each airline, specifically:

1. Junior WB FO

2. Junior NB CA 737/A320/1 (I'd prefer to exclude the 190/MD-80/88 since they're going away for both airlines)

3. Junior WB CA

Thanks in advance.


Delta. 14,6xx pilots on the list.

1. 11,8xx DTW 330

2. 11,9xx NYC 320

3. 2,7xx A330 NYC

Laker24
04-11-2018, 07:03 PM
American-

Looks like 14,981 is the junior FO (190PHL).

1)PHL 330FO 11,9XX. LGA 777FO 11,7XX
2)LGA 737 CA 11,084
3)LGA/MIA 777 CA +- 3,000

propbandit
04-11-2018, 07:32 PM
Delta. 14,6xx pilots on the list.

1. 11,8xx DTW 330

2. 11,9xx NYC 320

3. 2,7xx A330 NYC

American-

Looks like 14,981 is the junior FO (190PHL).

1)PHL 330FO 11,9XX. LGA 777FO 11,7XX
2)LGA 737 CA 11,084
3)LGA/MIA 777 CA +- 3,000

Ar/Laker, thank you, much appreciated.

bull
04-12-2018, 04:04 AM
Thread bump.

I have found myself in the same position as the OP. AA vs DAL.

I am a commuter to both airlines as I will not be moving to a domicile.

Can someone give any insight into where seniority numbers lie for each airline, specifically:

1. Junior WB FO

2. Junior NB CA 737/A320/1 (I'd prefer to exclude the 190/MD-80/88 since they're going away for both airlines)

3. Junior WB CA

Thanks in advance.

Based on Delta hiring 4000+ over the last 4 years, I would think AA would offer you better movement. However, if you are going to be a career commuter, I would also look at commutes from where you live. Delta allows you to book a Jumpseat 6 days prior going to work and 4 days prior going home. To me, knowing I have a seat to work that far in advance is a huge QOL boost for me, versus worrying if Iím going to be the first one to the gate to list.

aa73
04-12-2018, 06:41 AM
^^ so does American. We also can book the j/s 7 days out.

Slowmover
04-12-2018, 06:54 AM
New guy here trying to learn...

A recent post in the AA section recommended that if you're interested in international flying then you should try to get to Delta or United vs. American. However, these numbers seem to show that's not the case. Seniority numbers for AA and Delta are about the same for wide body FO and CA, but projected turnover at AA means you'd get there faster at AA than at Delta.

In any case, it looks to me like a new hire at AA could be a wide body FO in 3-4 years or a narrow body CA at 4-5 years. Widebody CA is of course harder to predict but it seems to me that a new guy could be getting close in 15 years or so.

Am I interpreting that right?

bull
04-12-2018, 07:02 AM
^^ so does American. We also can book the j/s 7 days out.

Thanks...I was not aware...these being equal, Iíd probably go AA based on retirements, Deltas 4000+ new hires, and more widebody/international flying.

Laker24
04-12-2018, 07:56 AM
Iím sure delta has something similar but AA has a great commuter policy. You donít need a backup flight and your commute does not have to be on company metal. If you miss your flight you simply call scheduling and they take you off the trip.

PilotJ3
04-12-2018, 10:40 AM
Iím sure delta has something similar but AA has a great commuter policy. You donít need a backup flight and your commute does not have to be on company metal. If you miss your flight you simply call scheduling and they take you off the trip.

2 flights at Delta. The second one has to be on DAL or DeltaConnection, youíll get positive space on it.

EMBFlyer
04-12-2018, 01:22 PM
^^ so does American. We also can book the j/s 7 days out.

For now...

WhiskeyDelta
04-12-2018, 01:31 PM
Iím sure delta has something similar but AA has a great commuter policy. You donít need a backup flight and your commute does not have to be on company metal. If you miss your flight you simply call scheduling and they take you off the trip.


What if you want to go to work? Is there any PS help if you donít get on the first one?

Al Czervik
04-12-2018, 03:00 PM
For now...

DFW spoke in the last election. They will speak again as well.

PRS Guitars
04-12-2018, 05:54 PM
What if you want to go to work? Is there any PS help if you donít get on the first one?

Maybe...you can ask, Iíve heard they will, but Iíve never ops tested this. Our reservation system is a bit different too. Ours is 7 days out no matter what, going to work, home, or vacation. Deltaís prioritizesgoing to work.

Sliceback
04-12-2018, 07:27 PM
Manningís typically tight. Iíve called CS 2-3x about commuting problems (bumped, cancellations, etc) - ďhold on...youíre positive space now.Ē

No guarantee but they made the decision to give me a seat. I couldnít GAS if they hadnít. No harm, no foul, go home. If youíre doing it every trip things might be different.

sherpster
04-13-2018, 03:04 AM
At AA you cant reserve the jumpseat on American Eagle flights. Not sure how it works at Delta. The AA reservation system doesnt mean much if you live in an RJ city which is most cities outside the hubs.

mainlineAF
04-13-2018, 03:44 AM
At AA you cant reserve the jumpseat on American Eagle flights. Not sure how it works at Delta. The AA reservation system doesnt mean much if you live in an RJ city which is most cities outside the hubs.



Itís he same at delta. That can only reserve delta mainline jumpseats.

sherpster
04-13-2018, 04:10 AM
Being new to the passenger 121 world I am amazed at the amount of RJ flying vs mainline flying. Scope has to be the most important thing for pilots going forward.

Laker24
04-13-2018, 05:48 AM
Being new to the passenger 121 world I am amazed at the amount of RJ flying vs mainline flying. Scope has to be the most important thing for pilots going forward.

Donít forget about international codeshare. Many of these foreign airlines are 50% widebody because legacy US Airlines farm out our long haul flying.



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