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View Full Version : Negotiating updates


BeatNavy
03-02-2018, 03:13 PM
I figured since all the other threads have some updates here and there, this subject merits its own thread, so outsiders and wannabes can see what we are dealing with and come in with eyes wide open.

Management has declared war on the pilot group and wonít agree to a market rate contract even before the price went up across the industry. We have the highest profit margin per seat in the INDUSTRY. I heard a chief pilot (big company guy) say in private he has no idea why the company is doing this and that he recognizes the permanent damage the company is inflicting on itself by engaging in this kind of war.

Over 1,000 days negotiating, and the company still isnít bringing reasonable market rate proposals, or agreeing to ours. Saddle up, boys. This is going to take a while and most likely a strike attempt. If youíre on the outside contemplating coming here, you are most likely taking a pay cut to come to what used to be a good place to work, but one that I now regret coming to work for. If I wasnít on long term leave, Iíd bail in a heartbeat. Maybe this place will be good one day, but our current management has made it clear that they are willing to sacrifice the brand and employee goodwill to save pennies, even in times of leading the industry in per seat profit.

Btw, they havenít once said they canít afford our proposals, just that they donít want to pay it.


Xtreme87
03-02-2018, 03:20 PM
Iím holding off having kids because of our shiiite health insurance. Thatís the reality of working for JB. This place is an absolute dump, getting worse day by day. I wish I wouldnít have left my regional and waited for a real airline to call. I have never been disrespected as a professional airline pilot so much as I have at this company, by management and by other work groups.

captsurf
03-02-2018, 03:33 PM
Nothing scheduled until April 10th now? Seriously?


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AMC190
03-02-2018, 03:44 PM
Nothing scheduled until April 10th now? Seriously?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I Know so disappointing!!! 🤦🏻*♂️
They have hurries at all!!! ....

PasserOGas
03-02-2018, 03:52 PM
Hey guys, it is our first contract these things take tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiime.

Strike vote please.

VF32TomCat
03-02-2018, 03:55 PM
Hey guys, it is our first contract these things take tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiime.

How long is this framework agreement? when it expire or when is tha last day?

Gordie H
03-02-2018, 04:02 PM
Nothing scheduled until April 10th now? Seriously?


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Yes, disappointing. I believe the Iran Nuclear deal took less than 2 years to negotiate.

Does anyone know why they go to places like Austin to meet? Wouldnít it make sense to just alternate between DC and NY? Just curious.....

Rascal
03-02-2018, 04:18 PM
I’m holding off having kids because of our shiiite health insurance. That’s the reality of working for JB. This place is an absolute dump, getting worse day by day. I wish I wouldn’t have left my regional and waited for a real airline to call. I have never been disrespected as a professional airline pilot so much as I have at this company, by management and by other work groups.

My sentiments excatly. I left a shrinking regional and if given the chance again I still would have stayed.

RiddleEagle18
03-02-2018, 04:20 PM
How anyone is still engaged with this company is amazing.

If you arenít seriously ****ed at this point Iím not sure what will get you there.

Iím sure every single RSA got picked up today. On top of many many VDAís.


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capt707
03-02-2018, 04:22 PM
How anyone is still engaged with this company is amazing.

If you arenít seriously ****ed at this point Iím not sure what will get you there.

Iím sure every single RSA got picked up today. On top of many many VDAís.


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I don't get it either. I fly with way too many guys still that are just happy to be here and still don't get with the program.

I absolutely hate going to work these days!

Rickce7
03-02-2018, 04:23 PM
This step of 'mediation' in the process seems absolutely useless. . .Just an opportunity for the company to stall along the way. They had to leave early to get back to NY because of the impending storm? What a complete joke. So their negotiating team is the reason that our IROPs are so jacked up. . . We are all supposed to believe that these dudes that company has chosen to negotiate with are sitting in the big chairs during IROPs and making big operational decisions? Completely disappointing and a farce.

feltf4
03-02-2018, 04:28 PM
Oh donít worry plenty of people still trying to get the job done tonight.

How anyone is still engaged with this company is amazing.

If you arenít seriously ****ed at this point Iím not sure what will get you there.

Iím sure every single RSA got picked up today. On top of many many VDAís.


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Rabid Seagull
03-02-2018, 04:33 PM
If they were flying jb back to NY, they could have completed a full day of negotiations and caught the 1100am flight.:rolleyes:

Coke Pilot
03-02-2018, 04:45 PM
How long is this framework agreement? when it expire or when is tha last day?

I am with you VF , does anyone knows when the framework agreement ends?

Tom a Hawk
03-02-2018, 06:08 PM
Yes, disappointing. I believe the Iran Nuclear deal took less than 2 years to negotiate.

Does anyone know why they go to places like Austin to meet? Wouldnít it make sense to just alternate between DC and NY? Just curious.....

The mediator sets the location/schedule to mesh with their other responsibilities.

Gordie H
03-02-2018, 06:48 PM
The mediator sets the location/schedule to mesh with their other responsibilities.


Ah, thank you

Lugar
03-02-2018, 06:52 PM
I absolutely hate going to work these days!

Then QUIT. Thereís no good reason to be at a place that you donít want to be at. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.

Bluetruth
03-02-2018, 07:01 PM
Nothing scheduled until April 10th now? Seriously?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

April 17th is when the votes will be counted for the FAs. So don't expect anything but fire and brimstone on the 10th either.

BeatNavy
03-02-2018, 07:21 PM
Then QUIT. Thereís no good reason to be at a place that you donít want to be at. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.

Says the guy interviewing with an ME3 carrier. Thatís rich.

Letter3
03-02-2018, 07:28 PM
More time for the company to draft inadequate proposals. Hopefully there isn't a gust of wind or a thunderstorm in April so we can actually negotiate for an entire planned session. Are we to believe that any future IROP will jeopardize completion of a negotiation week? If so I guess we can count out thunderstorm season...It's pure stall at this point, they know ALPA isn't going to entertain the proposals. It's disrespectful to our pilot group, negotiators, and the mediator himself. Absolute time wasting at our expense. What comes after billboards?

Lugar
03-02-2018, 08:54 PM
Says the guy interviewing with an ME3 carrier. Thatís rich.

Iím here in Dubai now. Love it here. By no means do I feel forced to be here. I am here 100% by choice, chasing my dream.

slimothy
03-02-2018, 10:30 PM
Iím here in Dubai now. Love it here. By no means do I feel forced to be here. I am here 100% by choice, chasing my dream.

Then go comment on the international threads. This is a place JB Pilots set up to discuss the JB contract negotiations. Some of us can leave, others have their reason for staying, what do you care? P!ss off.

captsurf
03-02-2018, 11:06 PM
They had to leave early to get back to NY because of the impending storm? .


They likely didnít pack their IROP pants on their trip to Austin. Gotta get back in time to throw those babies on.



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capt707
03-03-2018, 12:14 AM
Then QUIT. Thereís no good reason to be at a place that you donít want to be at. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.

Working on it! Thanks!

Bozo the pilot
03-03-2018, 12:21 AM
Then QUIT. Thereís no good reason to be at a place that you donít want to be at. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.

And the stupidest post goes to...:rolleyes:

aldonite7667
03-03-2018, 12:45 AM
Iím here in Dubai now. Love it here. By no means do I feel forced to be here. I am here 100% by choice, chasing my dream.

Loser pilot that canít get a job in the US. Even in the best pilot market in history.

Lugar
03-03-2018, 01:01 AM
Then go comment on the international threads. This is a place JB Pilots set up to discuss the JB contract negotiations. Some of us can leave, others have their reason for staying, what do you care? P!ss off.

What do I care? My application is in with JetBlue. Therefore, I do care.

CaptCoolHand
03-03-2018, 02:49 AM
If you want to work here then you should care about why he hates coming to work. As well as the frustration associated with it.

Enjoy the sand box. The if you donít like it quit attitude will work well out there.

GuppyPuppy
03-03-2018, 03:55 AM
Not so easy to quit when your seniority gets you a decent schedule that works for your family.

Not so easy to quit when you have responsibilities like a mortgage, medical bills, and an autistic child.

Not so easy to quit when you'd be looking at a 70% pay cut, minimum.

Not so easy to quit when you are getting really concerned about retirement and how you are going to be able to just survive day-to-day expenses.

We have major issues here at this company. Many of us are frustrated beyond belief since we came to a place that claimed its own management lives by the 5 values.

And yet, here we are in a full on labor dispute. Pilot goodwill is being severely eroded to the point of no return. My GAS meter is below zero at this point.

Looking back, I wish my path was different, as do so many others here.

Lugar, if you can't get your head around that simple concept, then I hope you never sit in my right seat. Sounds like you'll enjoy it out there...good for you.

You seem to be quite young. Congratulations, you should have a decent career somewhere.

Gup

slimothy
03-03-2018, 05:39 AM
Then QUIT. Thereís no good reason to be at a place that you donít want to be at. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.



And the stupidest post goes to...:rolleyes:

Hold my beer.


What do I care? My application is in with JetBlue. Therefore, I do care.

P-3Bubba
03-03-2018, 05:46 AM
Gup, great post! Itís why weíre all emotionally invested in what tactics the company is utilizing. Many of us were here when the PEA and the direct relationship yielded weak results. Back then the company proclaimed peer set was Spirit, Virgin A and Alaska. That peer set was never mentioned until the 2013 PEA negotiations. Now conscessonary times have ended. We are DEAD last. Itís black and white.

Last night Iím flying to FLL and a JetBlue doofus gets told to slow from .80M to .77 for spacing. I donít know why he was flying outside the cost index or SOP in the first place, but this jblue Captís reply to ATC? ďMaybe if Spirit picked it up we wouldnít have a problem.Ē So fellas, this is where weíre at. Guys blazing the skies to get back on time. Making unprofessional ATC communications.

This is why we are frustrated, but also while Iíll say this. -Fly SOP. Nothing more. Nothing less.- Itís not easy to do. I get caught up in jblue administrative deficiencies on an hourly basis and, on occasion, I go beyond what my capacity of a pilot entails for the greater good. Thats our reflex from working here. But, while company negotiators play games we HAVE to reinforce the MEC guidance.

As I type on my DH, very delayed and crew services directed return to gate for more DH, the Capt has graciously taxied to the runway at a very expedited pace with 1 then 2 engines. We are responsible for our own fates.

-Bubs

capt707
03-03-2018, 05:50 AM
Not so easy to quit when your seniority gets you a decent schedule that works for your family.

Not so easy to quit when you have responsibilities like a mortgage, medical bills, and an autistic child.

Not so easy to quit when you'd be looking at a 70% pay cut, minimum.

Not so easy to quit when you are getting really concerned about retirement and how you are going to be able to just survive day-to-day expenses.


I'm willing to give it all up and start over... again.... for a 4th time! That's how bad I think it has gotten here! I've been thru a furlough, bankruptcy and merger. This place is an absolute dumpster fire and can't believe this is a so called "major" airline. What people don't understand is that trying to leave is a lot easier said than done, not only for the things you already mentioned, but none of the big 3/4 airlines are knocking down my door just because I work at BlewJet.

Bluedriver
03-03-2018, 07:04 AM
And Payne says?

Bluedriver
03-03-2018, 07:04 AM
Oh and to basically all 4 pages of post authors:

#I*AGREE*

HighFlight
03-03-2018, 08:05 AM
Really makes me wish there was a plus one or like button. Well said.

Hold my beer.

pilotpayne
03-03-2018, 08:52 AM
And Payne says?


I have always been pretty honest in my opinions.
I know you know how I feel about the company as do most people on here.

I think the company is making a major miscalculation, but you know that.

Papa Bear
03-03-2018, 09:50 AM
Just denied an extension...FUPM. Oh and Iím staying home for the next 5 days.
The company goes home when they want...Iím staying home too.

pilotpayne
03-03-2018, 09:53 AM
Just denied an extension...FUPM. Oh and Iím staying home for the next 5 days.
The company goes home when they want...Iím staying home too.

Whatís an extension?

CaptCoolHand
03-03-2018, 11:10 AM
Whatís an extension?

I never needed one... the girls never complain.

Bluedriver
03-03-2018, 11:56 AM
I never needed one... the girls never complain.

There you go!

#I*AGREE*

402DRVR
03-03-2018, 12:21 PM
So I wonder how many people got extended into their days off as a result of this latest IROP. Otherwise known as weather. I only wonder that because the company that is supposedly negotiating in "good faith" couldn't even keep their negotiators at the table for fear of missing their flight home? Funny how they didn't do that for any of the crews that may not get home on time, you know, cause we had jobs to do.

That said, had a captain today who not only taxied quickly, but also (opinion here) worked really hard to make an earlier intersection on landing. I don't normally question that stuff but it was pretty dramatic. Had both a lanyard and a baggage handle cover.

Spoke to another guy on the bus wearing a lanyard and had a baggage handle, who was looking forward to picking up a VDA again this week.

Why is there still goodwill??

Xtreme87
03-03-2018, 12:24 PM
So I wonder how many people got extended into their days off as a result of this latest IROP. Otherwise known as weather. I only wonder that because the company that is supposedly negotiating in "good faith" couldn't even keep their negotiators at the table for fear of missing their flight home? Funny how they didn't do that for any of the crews that may not get home on time, you know, cause we had jobs to do.

That said, had a captain today who not only taxied quickly, but also (opinion here) worked really hard to make an earlier intersection on landing. I don't normally question that stuff but it was pretty dramatic. Had both a lanyard and a baggage handle cover.

Spoke to another guy on the bus wearing a lanyard and had a baggage handle, who was looking forward to picking up a VDA again this week.

Why is there still goodwill??

Because people are absolutely clueless to the fact that picking stuff up hurts their own cause. CLUELESS. They look at you like a deer caught in the headlights.

queue
03-03-2018, 02:42 PM
Then QUIT. Thereís no good reason to be at a place that you donít want to be at. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.

How can you tell him something like that? Don't you see that he actually cares. If taken to it's logical conclusion, your thought process results in an overall mediocre workplace. Even people like YOU will want to quit.

queue
03-03-2018, 02:45 PM
What do I care? My application is in with JetBlue. Therefore, I do care.


Then stow your **** poor attitude mister.

We don't QUIT simply because we haven't won the battle. We're in it for the war.

queue
03-03-2018, 02:58 PM
Why is there still goodwill??

Why was there EVER goodwill from pilots in the first place?

Have not pilots learned from the past 70 years of history with every company on the planet?

Who is gullible enough to ever believe a publicly traded company will do things on goodwill!!??

They will always hide behind the Myth of Fiduciary Responsibility (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/111495-myth-fiduciary-responsibility.html).

Look guys, Vietnam taught us what it's like to negotiate with the enemy and only to use sufficient force to bring them back to the table. On the other hand, the Gulf War demonstrated how Shock and Awe with nothing but overwhelming dominance works.

http://theduran.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/patton-george-c-scott.png

Papa Bear
03-03-2018, 03:17 PM
I never needed one... the girls never complain.
😆☝️This👍🏻👍🏻☝️☝️☝️👍🏻👍🏻☝️👍🏻☝️👍🏻☝️☝️

pilotpayne
03-03-2018, 04:17 PM
So I wonder how many people got extended into their days off as a result of this latest IROP. Otherwise known as weather. I only wonder that because the company that is supposedly negotiating in "good faith" couldn't even keep their negotiators at the table for fear of missing their flight home? Funny how they didn't do that for any of the crews that may not get home on time, you know, cause we had jobs to do.

That said, had a captain today who not only taxied quickly, but also (opinion here) worked really hard to make an earlier intersection on landing. I don't normally question that stuff but it was pretty dramatic. Had both a lanyard and a baggage handle cover.

Spoke to another guy on the bus wearing a lanyard and had a baggage handle, who was looking forward to picking up a VDA again this week.

Why is there still goodwill??


Oh greed, itís all about them.

hilltopflyer
03-03-2018, 04:33 PM
What's great is that our company negotiators need to come home early but Robin can go up to Boston and do an anti union speech to the flight attendants. He couldn't miss that.

PasserOGas
03-03-2018, 05:38 PM
What's great is that our company negotiators need to come home early but Robin can go up to Boston and do an anti union speech to the flight attendants. He couldn't miss that.

Too bad he and the ELT have poisoned the morale here so badly it was a complete waste of time.

pilotpayne
03-03-2018, 06:19 PM
Too bad he and the ELT have poisoned the morale here so badly it was a complete waste of time.

Oh I #*AGREE*

Actually I really do

CaptCoolHand
03-03-2018, 06:52 PM
Oh I #*AGREE*

Actually I really do

#metoo
Right??

pilotpayne
03-04-2018, 03:54 AM
#metoo
Right??

Man I have a hard time with childish internet responses but yeah you are right.

CaptCoolHand
03-04-2018, 04:14 AM
I thought it was the new cool internet thing.

rvr1800
03-04-2018, 04:22 AM
Then QUIT. There’s no good reason to be at a place that you don’t want to be at. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.


Spoken like a true airline rookie.

Overqualified? You’re mightily confused. I have zero 121 time. I’m strictly from a Part 91 background.

P-3Bubba
03-04-2018, 06:10 AM
Sat next to a DH capt last night who got called at home for a good deal help out. Can you believe it? 9 hours!!!! JRA!!! $$$$$$$

He got his. I came about .5 hours from timing out into my day off. And that was a 16 hour day via DH no extension. Got to love FAR117.

-Bubs

N311JB
03-04-2018, 07:57 AM
#MeToo

5mins prior to show still no assigned Capt. 2hrs later we get one. Of course he was on RSA but he 3 engine taxied so he really showed em.

P-3Bubba
03-04-2018, 08:07 AM
Got to respect THE HELP! He got his $$$$$$$$. American Greed. More RSA keeps hitting the wire. Guys helping out and they STILL need help.

-Bubs

PasserOGas
03-04-2018, 08:09 AM
#MeToo

5mins prior to show still no assigned Capt. 2hrs later we get one. Of course he was on RSA but he 3 engine taxied so he really showed em.

I hope he was 3 engine taxiing due to the terrain and contaminated runway. Doing that just to "show em" is illegal. Remember that please.

If he was rested there is nothing wrong with picking up RSA. Me, I am always too sick and/or tired when it is available.

P-3Bubba
03-04-2018, 08:12 AM
Never to sick or tired to get some more $$$$$$. Me Me Me. Make money money!!

-Bubs

nuball5
03-04-2018, 08:16 AM
Got to respect THE HELP! He got his $$$$$$$$. American Greed. More RSA keeps hitting the wire. Guys helping out and they STILL need help.

-Bubs

They're definitely not getting the amount of RSA volunteers this weekend that they need. Some of the people I see doing RSA's are still on first pay. Just mind-blowing that someone thinks it's worth sitting reserve on a weekend for premium pay based on $53/hour.

P-3Bubba
03-04-2018, 08:55 AM
They're definitely not getting the amount of RSA volunteers this weekend that they need. Some of the people I see doing RSA's are still on first pay. Just mind-blowing that someone thinks it's worth sitting reserve on a weekend for premium pay based on $53/hour.

Iíve heard FOís say their buddies are doing the same thing on 1yr pay. I really donít understand that. Whatever, guys are going to keep the help pouring in.

I like staying home on days off. Pretty soon itís golf season. Iíll make a post. Hit a couple drives. Check the forums. Make a post. More drives, maybe a 3-wood or chip if thereís time. Go home and drink a beer.

-Bubs

N311JB
03-04-2018, 09:05 AM
I hope he was 3 engine taxiing due to the terrain and contaminated runway. Doing that just to "show em" is illegal. Remember that please.

If he was rested there is nothing wrong with picking up RSA. Me, I am always too sick and/or tired when it is available.

2 engine taxi with the APU running is no where near ďillegalĒ

PasserOGas
03-04-2018, 09:11 AM
2 engine taxi with the APU running is no where near ďillegalĒ

Dude, I am on your side.

If the company can convince a mediator that a job action is taking place we will not be released to strike. Taxiing 3 engine with the sole purpose of "showing them" is a job action. Understand?

pilotpayne
03-04-2018, 09:46 AM
Gentlemen it is simply greed with some of the guys that want to help out sprinkled in. I canít tell you how many times they called me this summer to do a turn out of DCA not once did I call them back. If you think this greed is fun wait till we have a TA. I have a feeling it wonít favor the top guys as much as they think (vacation bidding and all of that) should make for some good debates but I would be glad if we were debating that vs this.

CaptCoolHand
03-04-2018, 10:02 AM
Dude, I am on your side.

If the company can convince a mediator that a job action is taking place we will not be released to strike. Taxiing 3 engine with the sole purpose of "showing them" is a job action. Understand?

I think the ďthatíll show themĒ was sarcasm... but thatís just how I took it. But yes i smell what your stepping in.

P-3Bubba
03-04-2018, 10:47 AM
Being released to strike will be another 2years of zero progress in mediation. Thatís a big pill to swallow. Guys that have 20tl give at a Legacy are gone by the time that happens. Maybe thatís the the company negotiating strategy. Get the middle earners to leave.

If we had a TA Iíd say pick up and help out who cares. This is a labor dispute. If you were in a dispute with someone would you be helping them out?

-Bubs

nuball5
03-05-2018, 08:30 PM
Nothing scheduled until April 10th now? Seriously?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Was told by an Alpa rep today that the Mediator had a week available in March, but the company wasn't available then.

queue
03-05-2018, 09:43 PM
Was told by an Alpa rep today that the Mediator had a week available in March, but the company wasn't available then.

Canít some kind of protest claiming non cooperation be sent to the mediator? Even if it does nothing immediately, canít be used as official evidence later down the road? I would hope our people do not let a single opportunity to inflict a Papercut go without action.

Flyondawall
03-06-2018, 01:53 AM
Dude, I am on your side.

If the company can convince a mediator that a job action is taking place we will not be released to strike. Taxiing 3 engine with the sole purpose of "showing them" is a job action. Understand?


I hate to break it to you, but the NMB flat out said to Spirit that they will not release anyone to strike.
You are under a rebublican administration and if the NMB did release you, it would look like a failure on their part not to have done what they are supposed to.

captsurf
03-06-2018, 04:20 AM
You are under a rebublican administration and if the NMB did release you, it would look like a failure on their part not to have done what they are supposed to.


Who knows who will be in the White House in 3-4 years when we are still negotiating and vote for a strike ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

GuppyPuppy
03-06-2018, 05:29 AM
Who knows who will be in the White House in 3-4 years when we are still negotiating and vote for a strike ;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pocahontas.

E

Bluedriver
03-06-2018, 06:40 AM
Vladimir Putin.

aldonite7667
03-06-2018, 06:47 AM
Oprah will save us all.

queue
03-06-2018, 02:39 PM
I hate to break it to you, but the NMB flat out said to Spirit that they will not release anyone to strike.
You are under a rebublican administration and if the NMB did release you, it would look like a failure on their part not to have done what they are supposed to.

Well they haven't helped us get a contract. That's all I care about.

Here's all the mediators. Maybe one of them can tell us why they are allowing airlines to take so long.

https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/NMB-Arbitrators-Contact-List-website-February-15-2018.pdf

rvr1800
03-06-2018, 05:09 PM
Well they haven't helped us get a contract. That's all I care about.

Here's all the mediators. Maybe one of them can tell us why they are allowing airlines to take so long.

https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/NMB-Arbitrators-Contact-List-website-February-15-2018.pdf

Because if it went quicker there wouldnít be the need for so many mediators would there?

Flyby1206
03-06-2018, 05:13 PM
Well they haven't helped us get a contract. That's all I care about.

Here's all the mediators. Maybe one of them can tell us why they are allowing airlines to take so long.

https://storage.googleapis.com/dakota-dev-content/NMB-Arbitrators-Contact-List-website-February-15-2018.pdf

But these people aren't... ahh never mind. You're on a roll.

http://bcicac.com/about/what-is-mediationarbitration/difference-between-arbitration-and-mediation/

queue
03-06-2018, 05:35 PM
But these people aren't... ahh never mind. You're on a roll.

BCICAC.com - Difference between Arbitration and Mediation (http://bcicac.com/about/what-is-mediationarbitration/difference-between-arbitration-and-mediation/)

Doesn't matter for my purposes. What I'm saying is that you need anyone involved in the process to say anything. I guarantee one of them will say something that will put the government and the process in a position to be attacked by citizens. Imagine of one of them said something like "yeah.. that affair with airline xxx, they could've done yyy but...... aaa said this... bbb said that... and it cost the process nnn amount of time". FOIA requests are also particularly useful in putting pressure on government agencies. In fact, just getting FOIA requests up front lets everyone in the process know they are being watched. Every agency has a person or office appointed to doing FOIA requests. They start talking to other people in the agency to gather facts and that alone exerts pressure. The name of the game is to be critical of the servant government. Have you ever seen what watchdog groups like Judicial Watch are able to do simply by asking questions of people on lists or through FOIA requests?

If you just sit back and watch passively, they do whatever they want.

ridinhigh
03-06-2018, 07:20 PM
Who knows who will be in the White House in 3-4 years when we are still negotiating and vote for a strike ;-)


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You guys are on to something.

FLYBOYMATTHEW
03-07-2018, 03:38 PM
Comair struck under W. The NMB is posturing, and authorized to lie in an attempt to facilitate a deal.

aldonite7667
03-07-2018, 05:24 PM
Comair struck under W. The NMB is posturing, and authorized to lie in an attempt to facilitate a deal.

Exactly. Dems are too dumb to know their party only cares about illegals.

Combatcraig
03-08-2018, 03:40 AM
Seen Frontierís ALPA billboards and signs? Much clearer message than ours! We need to change our message!

hilltopflyer
03-08-2018, 05:31 AM
Seen Frontierís ALPA billboards and signs? Much clearer message than ours! We need to change our message!

What is it?

GuppyPuppy
03-08-2018, 06:18 AM
What is it?

It's a big sign with pictures and words on it. But, that's not important right now.

Gup

RiddleEagle18
03-08-2018, 06:18 AM
What is it?



ďFrontier Pilots Are Ready To StrikeĒ


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nuball5
03-08-2018, 06:23 AM
ďFrontier Pilots Are Ready To StrikeĒ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

....and JetBlue pilots aren't ready yet. That's according to some Alpa members I've talked to.

SmitteyB
03-08-2018, 06:30 AM
Seen Frontierís ALPA billboards and signs? Much clearer message than ours! We need to change our message!

I trust ALPA and our pilot representatives to do the right thing, but I agree with you. Our message is rather tame. I think our next move will show more teeth.

HighFlight
03-08-2018, 11:53 AM
Best movie evah!

It's a big sign with pictures and words on it. But, that's not important right now.

Gup

queue
03-09-2018, 03:58 AM
I think the signs should say either

Equal Pay For Equal Work (JetBlue Pilots). (Use their own virtue signaling tactics)

Or...

Stop Abusing JetBlue Pilots

captsurf
03-09-2018, 10:17 AM
I think the signs should say either



Equal Pay For Equal Work (JetBlue Pilots). (Use their own virtue signaling tactics)



Or...



Stop Abusing JetBlue Pilots



Or ď**** You Pay MeĒ


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coopervane
03-09-2018, 12:04 PM
JETBLUE PILOT ARE READY TO WALK!!!

Vague yet effective...

BeatNavy
03-09-2018, 12:55 PM
Latest email from the company: we will keep negotiating in good faith so long as ALPA keeps lowering its offer far below market rate. We wonít pay market rate because, while we can afford it, we donít want to pay you all in line with your peers. You are worth less than your peers, so you can take a lower pay rate and worse insurance, work rules, and everything else. You arenít worth more than that. Oh and we will continue to try to divide the pilot group and turn the sentiment against the union.

Right out of the F&H union busting playbook.

cmesoar
03-09-2018, 12:59 PM
Or ď**** You Pay MeĒ


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I agree the slogan needs more teeth. But thank goodness the MEC acts like grown adults and they are mature. Professionals would never use a stupid slogan like that...

PasserOGas
03-09-2018, 01:07 PM
I agree the slogan needs more teeth. But thank goodness the MEC acts like grown adults and they are mature. Professionals would never use a stupid slogan like that...

FUPM

*filler*

Gordie H
03-09-2018, 01:08 PM
I agree the slogan needs more teeth. But thank goodness the MEC acts like grown adults and they are mature. Professionals would never use a stupid slogan like that...

I think he was just joking....:)

captsurf
03-09-2018, 03:34 PM
I agree the slogan needs more teeth. But thank goodness the MEC acts like grown adults and they are mature. Professionals would never use a stupid slogan like that...



Lighten up Francis, it was a joke.


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RiddleEagle18
03-09-2018, 03:52 PM
Wait so the the 3 guys who are the absolute least critical to a JB IROP leave a day early and itís ALPAs fault the negotiations arent going well.

Right..... do you think Warren k owns these emails are just galvanizing the pilot group?


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Chicken Taco
03-09-2018, 04:39 PM
FUPM! That is all..

P-3Bubba
03-09-2018, 05:21 PM
It shows that management is using insignificant pieces of the negotiation to point a finger at ALPA. The whole part about unpackaging the package deal, that was never really set in stone anyways, sounds like a Progressive Insurance commercial.

I also feel that pointing out that ALPA hasn’t lowered their compensation package since 2017 is a testament to the positive job the Union negotiators are doing. Warren and the gang have nothing to stand on. We are dead last in compensation when compared to peers and when compared to ULCC groups. Warren can only look at the billion dollars on the balance sheet and think, “I better make some pathetic arguments in an email before Robin steps on my neck.”

I think Warren is getting pressure to get a deal done soon. The longer he waits the worse it will get. I hope the union negotiators make a new offer for MORE! The pilot group isn’t divided. Yes we have some helpers but that’s never going away.

When you log into your Empower account take a hard long look at that 5% 401k company match. It’s ridiculous. We’re now a decade behind ALL Legacies,SWA and VA/AK in retirement compensation.

5 F-ING %!!!!! That’s a MASSIVE slap in the face. I don’t care if it’s 2019 and we’re almost at a contract. They’ll have to PAY UP! And Warren will be spending more time with his family. Albeit with more than 5% in his 401k.

There were massive problems during this last irop. Problems which cost the company real quantifiable $$. Problems which a content, valued and willing to make the extra effort pilot group would have accelerated to a solution and reduced the monetary impact of the irop. That’s not happening. They know it, and the summer is fast approaching.


-Bubs

PasserOGas
03-09-2018, 05:22 PM
Wait so the the 3 guys who are the absolute least critical to a JB IROP leave a day early and itís ALPAs fault the negotiations arent going well.

Right..... do you think Warren k owns these emails are just galvanizing the pilot group?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oooooh, it is ALPA dragging out the negotiations! Makes total sense. If only they would be reasonable and settle for a substandard contract this would be over by now. Thanks for clearing that up Warren.

Hey Warren. FUPM

Ted Striker
03-09-2018, 06:20 PM
It shows that management is using insignificant pieces of the negotiation to point a finger at ALPA. The whole part about unpackaging the package deal, that was never really set in stone anyways, sounds like a Progressive Insurance commercial.

I also feel that pointing out that ALPA hasnít lowered their compensation package since 2017 is a testament to the positive job the Union negotiators are doing. Warren and the gang have nothing to stand on. We are dead last in compensation when compared to peers and when compared to ULCC groups. Warren can only look at the billion dollars on the balance sheet and think, ďI better make some pathetic arguments in an email before Robin steps on my neck.Ē

I think Warren is getting pressure to get a deal done soon. The longer he waits the worse it will get. I hope the union negotiators make a new offer for MORE! The pilot group isnít divided. Yes we have some helpers but thatís never going away.

When you log into your Empower account take a hard long look at that 5% 401k company match. Itís ridiculous. Weíre now a decade behind ALL Legacies,SWA and VA/AK in retirement compensation.

5 F-ING %!!!!! Thatís a MASSIVE slap in the face. I donít care if itís 2019 and weíre almost at a contract. Theyíll have to PAY UP! And Warren will be spending more time with his family. Albeit with more than 5% in his 401k.

There were massive problems during this last irop. Problems which cost the company real quantifiable $$. Problems which a content, valued and willing to make the extra effort pilot group would have accelerated to a solution and reduced the monetary impact of the irop. Thatís not happening. They know it, and the summer is fast approaching.


-Bubs

Well said.....+1

hilltopflyer
03-09-2018, 06:36 PM
It shows that management is using insignificant pieces of the negotiation to point a finger at ALPA. The whole part about unpackaging the package deal, that was never really set in stone anyways, sounds like a Progressive Insurance commercial.

I also feel that pointing out that ALPA hasnít lowered their compensation package since 2017 is a testament to the positive job the Union negotiators are doing. Warren and the gang have nothing to stand on. We are dead last in compensation when compared to peers and when compared to ULCC groups. Warren can only look at the billion dollars on the balance sheet and think, ďI better make some pathetic arguments in an email before Robin steps on my neck.Ē

I think Warren is getting pressure to get a deal done soon. The longer he waits the worse it will get. I hope the union negotiators make a new offer for MORE! The pilot group isnít divided. Yes we have some helpers but thatís never going away.

When you log into your Empower account take a hard long look at that 5% 401k company match. Itís ridiculous. Weíre now a decade behind ALL Legacies,SWA and VA/AK in retirement compensation.

5 F-ING %!!!!! Thatís a MASSIVE slap in the face. I donít care if itís 2019 and weíre almost at a contract. Theyíll have to PAY UP! And Warren will be spending more time with his family. Albeit with more than 5% in his 401k.

There were massive problems during this last irop. Problems which cost the company real quantifiable $$. Problems which a content, valued and willing to make the extra effort pilot group would have accelerated to a solution and reduced the monetary impact of the irop. Thatís not happening. They know it, and the summer is fast approaching.


-Bubs

Well said and I hope he is feeling pressure. It's going to be sad when delta opens up negotiations again this winter and their pay is going to go up again before we get a contract.

Hercbubba
03-10-2018, 06:48 AM
I have a new rant...Iím done with the other one.

When I get a company email with Warren Christieí name on it and check the seniority list, his name is 522 MCO. Why wouldnít ALPA kick this guy out of the union or argue, heís a conflict of interest being at the negotiating table. How can a guy represent the company, bad mouth the union, and still be art of the union he talks trash about?

Sadly, I should have checked the seniority list months ago, but a CA told me about him last week on a trip. I guess I shouldnít have been surprised being Boni Simi is still there too?

I feel, we are not being represented fairly, since he can see what the union emails are saying, but the union canít see what the company emails are saying? Any thoughts?

rvr1800
03-10-2018, 07:24 AM
I have a new rant...Iím done with the other one.

When I get a company email with Warren Christieí name on it and check the seniority list, his name is 522 MCO. Why wouldnít ALPA kick this guy out of the union or argue, heís a conflict of interest being at the negotiating table. How can a guy represent the company, bad mouth the union, and still be art of the union he talks trash about?

Sadly, I should have checked the seniority list months ago, but a CA told me about him last week on a trip. I guess I shouldnít have been surprised being Boni Simi is still there too?

I feel, we are not being represented fairly, since he can see what the union emails are saying, but the union canít see what the company emails are saying? Any thoughts?

Warren Christie is not a member of ALPA. He does not pay dues. He doesnít get the union emails. But Iím sure he can get them if he wants. Thereís not any big secrets in there.

Hercbubba
03-10-2018, 08:42 AM
Itís just sad then...I checked the ALPA non members list and saw he was management. Pretty sure heís out to screw us and thatís pretty sad in my opinion.

Oh well.
FUPM

slimothy
03-10-2018, 08:52 AM
Itís just sad then...I checked the ALPA non members list and saw he was management. Pretty sure heís out to screw us and thatís pretty sad in my opinion.

Oh well.
FUPM

Iím pretty sure screwing us is the bulk of his job description. He is a MANAGEMENT ďpilot.Ē

dontsurf
03-10-2018, 08:58 AM
keep in mind that emails sent out by the company are shared with other working groups as well. so they can see what a greedy group of people the pilots are. if only, as someone else pointed out, we had already accepted the lowball offers from the company, we wouldn't be in a labor dispute.

i agree that the union should come back with a higher proposal. but i know how tough the negotiating table is. with the latest contracts in place elsewhere, though, i wouldn't feel bad about asking for even more.

i am very proud that our mec is holding firm and will continue to do so. i agree with others on here that whatever contract gets sent to us from the union to vote on will probably pass, so they are our line of defense and i am glad they are standing strong.

Blue Dude
03-10-2018, 09:47 AM
The NC periodically pulls their economic package and updates it to reflect current rates. The last time they did this, the company countered with Alaska -1%, 16% retirement by the END of the agreement, and scheduling *concessions*. It's no wonder the union didn't come down from their previous position, as it would have legitimized the company's offer as a serious position instead of the insulting delaying tactic it was. Good on the NC for holding firm.

django
03-10-2018, 10:08 AM
You ex mil guys just donít get it..

slimothy
03-10-2018, 10:40 AM
You ex mil guys just don’t get it..

Is this in response to any particular comment? Trying to figure out if you’re being funny (responding to p3bubba, who clearly “gets it,”) or serious (responding to hercbubba, who maybe doesn’t quite get it, yet).

django
03-10-2018, 11:08 AM
It was a bit of both.

queue
03-10-2018, 12:27 PM
You ex mil guys just donít get it..

All you have to do is tell anyone all the shenanigans BJ has ever done to the pilot group, individual pilots, and all employees and the case sells itself. In fact, to see how screwed the pilots really are, you need not look farther than all the legalisms found in the FOM, BlueBook, and places like the "clean the airplane training". Everything is set up to screw you over (e.g. the commuting policy that doesn't protect you in any way since it always counts against you via the Dependability Policy). People will try to say things like "they've never had an issue with me" but they fail to read it like a legal document, which in the end is all that matters.

This is why we need a contract!

queue
03-10-2018, 12:33 PM
It shows that management is using insignificant pieces of the negotiation to point a finger at ALPA. The whole part about unpackaging the package deal, that was never really set in stone anyways, sounds like a Progressive Insurance commercial.
-Bubs

It also creates the false expectation that ALPA needs to propose something. It is not a legal requirement to do so. It's best ALPA just "listen" to their proposals in some cases. By not giving a proposal up front, BJ can't bisect ALPAs proposal with theirs. They can't draw a line with only one point. Simple geometry.

The entire message on HelloBJ is disgusting. I want to rip it apart showing how it's nothing but Management 101 SPIN. It prays on your emotions of fairness. It convicts you. However, notice how none of that applies to them. They can offer sub-standard propositions but it's OK because the same standards don't apply to them.

I don't know why it will take an entire month before the next meeting. ALPA needs to be approached and challenged on this. This could be happening daily from the legal standpoint. Someone is choosing to drag this out. I doubt anyone's response will be different 30 days from now.

Blue Dude
03-10-2018, 01:57 PM
I don't know why it will take an entire month before the next meeting. ALPA needs to be approached and challenged on this. This could be happening daily from the legal standpoint. Someone is choosing to drag this out. I doubt anyone's response will be different 30 days from now.

Apparently the moderator had another slot later this month but the company couldn't make it. Make of that what you will.

Combatcraig
03-10-2018, 02:21 PM
You ex mil guys just donít get it..

Beg your pardon?!
Iím very tuned in and I absolutely ďget itĒ.
Donít point fingers and be decisive with this crap!

11Bravo
03-10-2018, 04:17 PM
Painting with a rather broad brush Django... many of us ďmilitary guysĒ were instrumental in supporting the drive for the union and we have not stopped fighting since. We all have the same enemy and letís focus on them and stop pointing fingers. I know myself and many other of my military brothers are on board. Cheers my friend

queue
03-10-2018, 05:00 PM
Painting with a rather broad brush Django... many of us ďmilitary guysĒ were instrumental in supporting the drive for the union and we have not stopped fighting since. We all have the same enemy and letís focus on them and stop pointing fingers. I know myself and many other of my military brothers are on board. Cheers my friend

Mil guys arenít afraid of some stupid corporation. Theyíre killers.

The problem is that generally mil guys come from an atmosphere where their chain of command isnít motivated purely by profit so itís easier to drink the blue juice initially. They think the corporate environment is like the military where they are actually respected and valued. However this can quickly be overcome with a short history lesson on corporate antics.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQqQpg2p9dKjhLBYYGuZz1oGC8JwPV emiyPlV0JLiDyy0fqlBJ_

11Bravo
03-10-2018, 05:14 PM
The blue juice tastes like sh!t and they can keep it

slimothy
03-10-2018, 07:05 PM
Mil guys arenít afraid of some stupid corporation. Theyíre killers.

The problem is that generally mil guys come from an atmosphere where their chain of command isnít motivated purely by profit so itís easier to drink the blue juice initially. They think the corporate environment is like the military where they are actually respected and valued. However this can quickly be overcome with a short history lesson on corporate antics.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQqQpg2p9dKjhLBYYGuZz1oGC8JwPV emiyPlV0JLiDyy0fqlBJ_

20 years in the Marine Corps, I donít remember that feeling. What I remember is constantly being asked to do more with less, take one for the team, put the good of the Corps above the good of your family, itís an honor to serve, so donít complain about living in this sh!tty tent. I also learned how to smell a rat. And it didnít take me long to figure out that something was rotten in Denmark, and that something is the Blue Juice.

Iíve been here for 2 years, and had another opportunity not presented itself, there isnít a shred of doubt in my mind that I would have stood shoulder to shoulder with the group had a strike occurred in my time here, but alas, Iím off to greener pastures. Hey JB, FUPT (them, cause I quit this b!tch)

slimothy
03-10-2018, 07:19 PM
I was 37 years old the last time I had to fill out paperwork explaining my transportation plan for a 4 day weekend. I felt so valued and respected.

To be honest, Iím not even sure what. Iím arguing for...or against...or whatever. Hey, look! Beer.

Gordie H
03-11-2018, 12:20 PM
I was 37 years old the last time I had to fill out paperwork explaining my transportation plan for a 4 day weekend. I felt so valued and respected.


Pretty amazing, looking back on it, some of the crap you put up withÖ.but congrats on the new gig! Some old squadron mates / friends recently interviewed at SWA and a few didnít make it through for whatever reasonÖand these were very qualified guysÖ..so good on you for getting it.

My good friend, whom is working there now, really likes it. And his second year W-2 is no jokeÖbut you already knew that. All the bestÖ..

slimothy
03-11-2018, 01:22 PM
Pretty amazing, looking back on it, some of the crap you put up withÖ.but congrats on the new gig! Some old squadron mates / friends recently interviewed at SWA and a few didnít make it through for whatever reasonÖand these were very qualified guysÖ..so good on you for getting it.

My good friend, whom is working there now, really likes it. And his second year W-2 is no jokeÖbut you already knew that. All the bestÖ..

Thanks Gordie, Iím looking forward to it. I got it on my second try, as did many from my interview group, so if they are still slugging it out at a regional, or here, god forbid, tell them to drop another app in a year.

Ditka
03-11-2018, 02:02 PM
You ex mil guys just donít get it..

Ch 10: Breaking ranks

For most of airline history, and never more so than in the 1970s, the military Served as the airlinesí farm club, turning out three quarters of the pilots who entered commercial aviation each year. These men were selected, both by the military and the airlines, in part according to whether they fit a paradoxical psychological profile: capable of operating well within a rigorous , rule-bound system, but also given to extreme independence and self-Assuredness of judgment when the situation demanded. It was precisely this combination of attributes that also made pilots prone to unionism.

django
03-12-2018, 10:45 AM
Ch 10: Breaking ranks

For most of airline history, and never more so than in the 1970s, the military Served as the airlinesí farm club, turning out three quarters of the pilots who entered commercial aviation each year. These men were selected, both by the military and the airlines, in part according to whether they fit a paradoxical psychological profile: capable of operating well within a rigorous , rule-bound system, but also given to extreme independence and self-Assuredness of judgment when the situation demanded. It was precisely this combination of attributes that also made pilots prone to unionism.

I have read this book. This last statement has to be throughly qualified. It depends on many factors.
How many airlines?
Com or NCO.
Politics.
And when were they both hired at the carrier and joined the Military.

django
03-12-2018, 10:55 AM
Painting with a rather broad brush Django... many of us ďmilitary guysĒ were instrumental in supporting the drive for the union and we have not stopped fighting since. We all have the same enemy and letís focus on them and stop pointing fingers. I know myself and many other of my military brothers are on board. Cheers my friend
Absolutely you were instrumental. In fact I knew we were heading to a Yes vote when the super senior first time ex mil pilots were changing their tune.

django
03-12-2018, 10:58 AM
Mil guys arenít afraid of some stupid corporation. Theyíre killers.

The problem is that generally mil guys come from an atmosphere where their chain of command isnít motivated purely by profit so itís easier to drink the blue juice initially. They think the corporate environment is like the military where they are actually respected and valued. However this can quickly be overcome with a short history lesson on corporate antics.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQqQpg2p9dKjhLBYYGuZz1oGC8JwPV emiyPlV0JLiDyy0fqlBJ_

Q you and I may not always agree ,but you sir have exactly explained what was being conveyed in my statement.

ďAll animals are equal but some more than others . ď Napoleon

queue
03-12-2018, 11:41 AM
Q you and I may not always agree ,but you sir have exactly explained what was being conveyed in my statement.

ďAll animals are equal but some more than others . ď Napoleon

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/16/34/d7/1634d7bab15de1610baad337019bcbfd.jpg

Napoleon... ah yes...



http://www.quotehd.com/imagequotes/TopAuthors/napoleon-bonaparte-war-quotes-a-soldier-will-fight-long-and-hard-for-a-bit-of.jpg

alvrb211
03-16-2018, 07:46 AM
I figured since all the other threads have some updates here and there, this subject merits its own thread, so outsiders and wannabes can see what we are dealing with and come in with eyes wide open.

Management has declared war on the pilot group and won’t agree to a market rate contract even before the price went up across the industry. We have the highest profit margin per seat in the INDUSTRY. I heard a chief pilot (big company guy) say in private he has no idea why the company is doing this and that he recognizes the permanent damage the company is inflicting on itself by engaging in this kind of war.

Over 1,000 days negotiating, and the company still isn’t bringing reasonable market rate proposals, or agreeing to ours. Saddle up, boys. This is going to take a while and most likely a strike attempt. If you’re on the outside contemplating coming here, you are most likely taking a pay cut to come to what used to be a good place to work, but one that I now regret coming to work for. If I wasn’t on long term leave, I’d bail in a heartbeat. Maybe this place will be good one day, but our current management has made it clear that they are willing to sacrifice the brand and employee goodwill to save pennies, even in times of leading the industry in per seat profit.

Btw, they haven’t once said they can’t afford our proposals, just that they don’t want to pay it.


Care to show the pay rates and benefits during the period you claim it was a "good place to work"?

Or, were you referring to "culture" only?:eek::eek::eek:


JJ

slimothy
03-16-2018, 08:13 AM
Care to show the pay rates and benefits during the period you claim it was a "good place to work"?

Or, were you referring to "culture" only?:eek::eek::eek:


JJ


You are speaking as if BeatNavyís post was in some way pro-company. I wasnít in the industry, but as I understand it, post 9-11, when pilot groups were accepting concessionary contract, to prevent even more furloughs, JB was THE place to be. Still hiring, at a rate that was competitive. Thatís not a pro-company statement, thatís simply history (as I understand it). Times have changed, the pay rates at JB have not.

alvrb211
03-16-2018, 08:55 AM
You are speaking as if BeatNavyís post was in some way pro-company. I wasnít in the industry, but as I understand it, post 9-11, when pilot groups were accepting concessionary contract, to prevent even more furloughs, JB was THE place to be. Still hiring, at a rate that was competitive. Thatís not a pro-company statement, thatís simply history (as I understand it). Times have changed, the pay rates at JB have not.


JB pay for Airbus Captains was $80+ per hour and E190 FO's $30 per hour with NO work rules!

The place to be?

Not all pilot groups were working under concessionary contracts. But, those who were had better pay, benefits, and work rules.


JJ

hilltopflyer
03-16-2018, 05:50 PM
You are speaking as if BeatNavyís post was in some way pro-company. I wasnít in the industry, but as I understand it, post 9-11, when pilot groups were accepting concessionary contract, to prevent even more furloughs, JB was THE place to be. Still hiring, at a rate that was competitive. Thatís not a pro-company statement, thatís simply history (as I understand it). Times have changed, the pay rates at JB have not.

Maybe not the place to be but the only place hiring would be better.

slimothy
03-16-2018, 06:15 PM
Maybe not the place to be but the only place hiring would be better.

Yeah, splitting hairs, if you ask me. The fact was guys were stoked to get a call from JB, because nobody else was hiring, so by default made it ďthe place to be.Ē But times have drastically changed.

I donít know why Iím even arguing, the JB then was before my time, and JB now is after my time.

Softpayman
03-16-2018, 09:36 PM
Yeah, splitting hairs, if you ask me. The fact was guys were stoked to get a call from JB, because nobody else was hiring, so by default made it ďthe place to be.Ē But times have drastically changed.

I donít know why Iím even arguing, the JB then was before my time, and JB now is after my time.

I donít know why youíre arguing when you clearly donít have a clue what the environment was like in the mid 2000ís. Tell us about the Continental pilot contract. Tell us about Northwest in 2006 and Delta for that matter (both in Chapter 11). US Air was the place to be huh post their BK? America West?
I remember being on a UAL jumpseat and being told be careful about coming here , you probably get furlouhed within a year, and thatís exactly what they were doing. Hiring and laying off.

Looks like your frame of reference is about that of a goldfish.

slimothy
03-16-2018, 09:57 PM
I donít know why youíre arguing when you clearly donít have a clue what the environment was like in the mid 2000ís. Tell us about the Continental pilot contract. Tell us about Northwest in 2006 and Delta for that matter (both in Chapter 11). US Air was the place to be huh post their BK? America West?
I remember being on a UAL jumpseat and being told be careful about coming here , you probably get furlouhed within a year, and thatís exactly what they were doing. Hiring and laying off.

Looks like your frame of reference is about that of a goldfish.

I feel like you and I are saying the same thing, so Iím not sure why youíre getting all crisp with me. And as far as me not being in the industry at that time, did I not throw out enough ďI wasnít there at the time, but as I understand itĒs.

CaptCoolHand
03-17-2018, 04:13 AM
Jetblue was a safe harbor in a nasty storm of 2001-2010. The pendulum has swung.

You are speaking as if BeatNavyís post was in some way pro-company. I wasnít in the industry, but as I understand it, post 9-11, when pilot groups were accepting concessionary contract, to prevent even more furloughs, JB was THE place to be. Still hiring, at a rate that was competitive. Thatís not a pro-company statement, thatís simply history (as I understand it). Times have changed, the pay rates at JB have not.

slimothy
03-17-2018, 05:55 AM
Jetblue was a safe harbor in a nasty storm of 2001-2010. The pendulum has swung.

My point exactly, I didnít think it was a controversial one.

Kilroy
03-17-2018, 06:35 AM
My sentiments excatly. I left a shrinking regional and if given the chance again I still would have stayed.

Thatís what Iím doing. Iím leaving a shrinking company. How long have you been at JB.

Rascal
03-17-2018, 07:23 AM
Thatís what Iím doing. Iím leaving a shrinking company. How long have you been at JB.

A little over 2 years.

Kilroy
03-17-2018, 11:15 AM
A little over 2 years.

Hopefully it gets better for you. I plan on coming on board and like what I see. I can tell you that during the interview the contract was brought up and it seems it will come. Itís just nobody knows when, which is expected.

PasserOGas
03-17-2018, 11:46 AM
Hopefully it gets better for you. I plan on coming on board and like what I see. I can tell you that during the interview the contract was brought up and it seems it will come. Itís just nobody knows when, which is expected.

Kilroy. They lied to me during my interview. They are trying to keep you positive. Make no mistake, the company is dragging this out. It could be 5 years and a strike before we get a market rate contract. You will see. Come back here in a year and re read this post.

Rascal
03-17-2018, 12:23 PM
Hopefully it gets better for you. I plan on coming on board and like what I see. I can tell you that during the interview the contract was brought up and it seems it will come. Itís just nobody knows when, which is expected.


My interview was 2.5 years ago and back then they told us that the contract is less than a year away.

HandyUghes
03-17-2018, 01:16 PM
Hopefully it gets better for you. I plan on coming on board and like what I see. I can tell you that during the interview the contract was brought up and it seems it will come. Itís just nobody knows when, which is expected.

There was probably a time not too long ago when contract talk during an interview would have been deemed totally unacceptable. If you brought it up with an interviewer and were still hired, I take that as a very bad sign that JB is getting good applicants at this point.

Kilroy
03-17-2018, 01:43 PM
There was probably a time not too long ago when contract talk during an interview would have been deemed totally unacceptable. If you brought it up with an interviewer and were still hired, I take that as a very bad sign that JB is getting good applicants at this point.

Didnít bring it up at all. They talked about it in the waiting room.

CaptCoolHand
03-18-2018, 04:07 AM
Donít believe anything the company says about contract negotiations. Ever.

According to them It is us holding up the process and really we really donít want a contract... yup.

FCISACOWARD
03-18-2018, 06:00 AM
Donít believe anything the company says about contract negotiations. Ever.

According to them It is us holding up the process and really we really donít want a contract... yup.

Union talk is never unacceptable. It is encouraged.

CanoeBum
03-18-2018, 06:28 AM
Kilroy has a history of being overly optimistic, so JetBlue is still hiring exactly who they want. Weíre all suckers in their game.

ďWord on the street is there will be a TA by summers end. The SLI will somewhat favor the ASA side. It is also being said that do not be to surprised if Delta comes in and buys some of the pilot group if not all. With Delta's lightning speed contract TA, and what looks like the same with Expressjet, makes one wounder why the rush. let's just say there is something in the works. Can't say much for the other regionals, but it appears that this Delta TA will benefit the new Expressjet, more than any other regional, for the better. Things are definitely looking good as time goes forward.ď
-Kilroy circa 2012

Letís just say things didnít work out so well at ExpressJet.

BlueJetDork
03-18-2018, 06:34 AM
Didnít bring it up at all. They talked about it in the waiting room.

Itís called bait.

For free jetblue turned into Delta. New contract wow!!!!!

Reality is will be America West for decades.

Keep your apps updated.

CaptCoolHand
03-18-2018, 07:06 AM
Kilroy has a history of being overly optimistic, so JetBlue is still hiring exactly who they want. Weíre all suckers in their game.

ďWord on the street is there will be a TA by summers end. The SLI will somewhat favor the ASA side. It is also being said that do not be to surprised if Delta comes in and buys some of the pilot group if not all. With Delta's lightning speed contract TA, and what looks like the same with Expressjet, makes one wounder why the rush. let's just say there is something in the works. Can't say much for the other regionals, but it appears that this Delta TA will benefit the new Expressjet, more than any other regional, for the better. Things are definitely looking good as time goes forward.ď
-Kilroy circa 2012

Letís just say things didnít work out so well at ExpressJet.

I'd like to see my glass half full...

history and experience tells me it's half empty and draining.

P-3Bubba
03-21-2018, 03:13 PM
Looks like they need extra help in the staffing department today. Hope everyone is giving a hand.

-Bubs

embraerjetpilot
03-21-2018, 03:42 PM
Seems like that last rsa request is a duplicate of the one sent this morning??

PasserOGas
03-21-2018, 04:11 PM
Seems like that last rsa request is a duplicate of the one sent this morning??

C'mon guys! Get out there and help! As much as they have given to you, you really need to give back to them. Just think of all the times you needed help and crew scheduling totally hooked you up. The company needs us! I would myself, but I am sick. Could have really used the money too. :-(

Combatcraig
03-21-2018, 04:55 PM
C'mon guys! Get out there and help! As much as they have given to you, you really need to give back to them. Just think of all the times you needed help and crew scheduling totally hooked you up. The company needs us! I would myself, but I am sick. Could have really used the money too. :-(

ďRobin: "Our pilots are great. They go above and beyond. We all want to get this done but in a way that allows the company to growĒ-JP Morgan Conference...
If you help now or at all before we get a CBA-YOU ARE A SELFISH SCUM BAG! That is all! Just my opinion scumbags!

Std Deviation
03-21-2018, 06:29 PM
Looks like they need extra help in the staffing department today. Hope everyone is giving a hand.

-Bubs

Itís one thing to get stuck at at outstation if youíre already there because of a cancellation. Itís entirely another to be in a base during good weather, be assigned to fly a leg to an outstation and they know full well theyíre stranding you there because the flight back to base is cancelled. So yeah, youíll just operate the flight back on your day off since this is your last day (yeah, it WAS commutable). No, I got nothing going on, only a veterinary surgery that took a month to schedule. And my wife took the day off too so I guess Iím just f&#&ed.

I was a middle of the road guy, but how much do I now want? All of it. It took three years to get bitter and cynical but Iím now converted. Thank you Jesus! (Jesus is a ramper in JFK I think). If they ask me to pick up a paper clip Iím gonna tell them, not my job. Any goodwill I have for this company is gone.

PasserOGas
03-21-2018, 07:37 PM
ďRobin: "Our pilots are great. They go above and beyond. We all want to get this done but in a way that allows the company to growĒ-JP Morgan Conference...
If you help now or at all before we get a CBA-YOU ARE A SELFISH SCUM BAG! That is all! Just my opinion scumbags!

https://imagemacros.wordpress.com/2009/07/29/successful-troll/

IQuitEagle
03-21-2018, 07:53 PM
Hopefully it gets better for you. I plan on coming on board and like what I see. I can tell you that during the interview the contract was brought up and it seems it will come. Itís just nobody knows when, which is expected.

No kidding. What else do you expect them to say? They're trying to hook new fish, after all...

P-3Bubba
03-22-2018, 03:42 AM
It’s one thing to get stuck at at outstation if you’re already there because of a cancellation. It’s entirely another to be in a base during good weather, be assigned to fly a leg to an outstation and they know full well they’re stranding you there because the flight back to base is cancelled. So yeah, you’ll just operate the flight back on your day off since this is your last day (yeah, it WAS commutable). No, I got nothing going on, only a veterinary surgery that took a month to schedule. And my wife took the day off too so I guess I’m just f&#&ed.

I was a middle of the road guy, but how much do I now want? All of it. It took three years to get bitter and cynical but I’m now converted. Thank you Jesus! (Jesus is a ramper in JFK I think). If they ask me to pick up a paper clip I’m gonna tell them, not my job. Any goodwill I have for this company is gone.

Same thing happened to my JFK buddy the other day too. Operating like this is pathetic. We’re being abused.

I was told at Leading Edge over a year ago with a smile amd a wink that this contract will be a done deal by the summer of 2017. I can’t wait to see the implosion and dust this summer 2018.

-Bubs

Bluedriver
03-22-2018, 05:54 AM
Boy, APC got SOO much better in 2018!

P-3Bubba
03-22-2018, 07:15 AM
More help requested. I hope these guys are asking for double time. But itís more like CS giving them RPL when they get hung up in traffic on a RSA. Hey, thanks for helping out!

-Bubs

Papa Bear
03-22-2018, 08:55 AM
Had a return to gate last night...Timmed out (no extension)...
As soon as the door opened I was the first person off the aircraft.
Gate agent asked us what’s going on?...
I said we timed out...Good luck.
Caught flight home!
I don’t go above or beyond anything Robin...
F.You.Paaaaay....Meeeeeeeee!

rvr1800
03-22-2018, 09:24 AM
Itís one thing to get stuck at at outstation if youíre already there because of a cancellation. Itís entirely another to be in a base during good weather, be assigned to fly a leg to an outstation and they know full well theyíre stranding you there because the flight back to base is cancelled. So yeah, youíll just operate the flight back on your day off since this is your last day (yeah, it WAS commutable). No, I got nothing going on, only a veterinary surgery that took a month to schedule. And my wife took the day off too so I guess Iím just f&#&ed.

I was a middle of the road guy, but how much do I now want? All of it. It took three years to get bitter and cynical but Iím now converted. Thank you Jesus! (Jesus is a ramper in JFK I think). If they ask me to pick up a paper clip Iím gonna tell them, not my job. Any goodwill I have for this company is gone.

https://media.giphy.com/media/fY4AWE5NkNRhS/giphy.gif

hilltopflyer
03-22-2018, 09:42 AM
Had a return to gate last night...Timmed out (no extension)...
As soon as the door opened I was the first person off the aircraft.
Gate agent asked us whatís going on?...
I said we timed out...Good luck.
Caught flight home!
I donít go above or beyond anything Robin...
F.You.Paaaaay....Meeeeeeeee!

Bravo good man bravo

Ted Striker
03-22-2018, 10:07 AM
https://media.giphy.com/media/fY4AWE5NkNRhS/giphy.gif

Ha, perfect gif.

capt707
03-22-2018, 10:34 AM
I can't believe it has taken people this long to get pi$$sed off! I guess better late than never, but we still have a long way to go...

P-3Bubba
03-22-2018, 11:53 AM
I can't believe it has taken people this long to get pi$$sed off! I guess better late than never, but we still have a long way to go...

Theyíre not that pi$$ed. More begging for people to fly only to have it picked up in minutes. Out of base Capt doing a BOS trip and some usual picker upper suspects. I hope they keep the usual suspects on speed dial. Looking in flica you canít even see the pairings theyíre begging for help with. What an operation.

-Bubs

queue
03-22-2018, 12:39 PM
No kidding. What else do you expect them to say? They're trying to hook new fish, after all...

BJ fishes with grenades.

http://www.gifbin.com/bin/082012/1344449595_grenade_fishing_gone_wrong.gif


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Coke Pilot
03-30-2018, 04:57 PM
Theyíre not that pi$$ed. More begging for people to fly only to have it picked up in minutes. Out of base Capt doing a BOS trip and some usual picker upper suspects. I hope they keep the usual suspects on speed dial. Looking in flica you canít even see the pairings theyíre begging for help with. What an operation.

-Bubs

Any new news about the negotiations?

CaptCoolHand
03-30-2018, 07:02 PM
Any new news about the negotiations?

Next session is April 10-13 in Texas.

Combatcraig
03-30-2018, 09:54 PM
Any new news about the negotiations?

Will be another nothing burger as our FAs union vote goes through 17 April. No way will the company give us anything while this is going on. Wouldnít want to make it look ďeasyĒ. Speaking of FAs, Joanna G and her her cronies made the rounds at JFK today handing out bags of candy to the crews. They have no idea that ship has sailed. Havenít talked to an FA in over a month that isnít voting YES... The company gets the union they deserve. Was totally avoidable, same as us, had they lived the values they preach...

P-3Bubba
03-31-2018, 03:16 AM
I think the vote is a ďNOĒ. Iíd say itís close but there are too many younger juicers and older cronies who love JetBlue and hate the unions. Iíd say 65% participation. The ďnaysĒ have it at 38-27.

-Bubs.

PasserOGas
03-31-2018, 04:36 AM
I think the vote is a ďNOĒ. Iíd say itís close but there are too many younger juicers and older cronies who love JetBlue and hate the unions. Iíd say 65% participation. The ďnaysĒ have it at 38-27.

-Bubs.

I ask all the inflight during the bladder break. Only 3 out of probably 50 said no.

nuball5
03-31-2018, 05:49 AM
I ask all the inflight during the bladder break. Only 3 out of probably 50 said no.

Just like when a pilot group votes on a T/A, everyone you ask personally is a no vote. Yet somehow when they count the votes it passes. I think inflight sees your Alpa lanyard during those bathroom breaks and are just telling you what you want to hear.

PasserOGas
03-31-2018, 07:42 AM
Just like when a pilot group votes on a T/A, everyone you ask personally is a no vote. Yet somehow when they count the votes it passes. I think inflight sees your Alpa lanyard during those bathroom breaks and are just telling you what you want to hear.

I dont know, they seem pretty angry.

Softpayman
03-31-2018, 08:12 AM
Their vote will overwhelming be ďyes.Ē Theyíre ****ed and they think that itíll be an overnight change, most donít realize itíll be a long haul before they see changes. Itís worth it but I think many have unrealistic expectations.

capt707
03-31-2018, 08:59 AM
Who gives a crap how the FAs will vote!? I'm only concerned about the pilot group and our CAREERS!

CaptCoolHand
03-31-2018, 09:43 AM
Their vote will overwhelming be ďyes.Ē Theyíre ****ed and they think that itíll be an overnight change, most donít realize itíll be a long haul before they see changes. Itís worth it but I think many have unrealistic expectations.

I agree with this... had that exact conversation with a crew earlier this month.

The one who was called in from RSV was mad because she had "stuff" to do... and "thats" why they need a union... oh boy. good luck TWU! :D

aldonite7667
03-31-2018, 11:58 AM
Who gives a crap how the FAs will vote!? I'm only concerned about the pilot group and our CAREERS!

Exactly, I donít care about the cart donkeys. They were less than helpful when we unionized. Laughed in our faces as we stayed at different hotels and got offered more benefits.

captsurf
03-31-2018, 02:42 PM
What I find funny is the anti-union propaganda. Flyers hung up in the JFK Crew room boasting about how 24/7 Crew services call-back, Crewtrac software advancements, ice hammers and catering changes, etc are some of the things that theyíve achieved out of the direct relationship. There was even a home-made poster put up inside the JFK parking lot shuttle claiming that inflight will lose free parking, free luggage, uniforms, etc if they decide to unionize. Itís pretty pathetic and comical at the same time to be honest


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Coke Pilot
04-02-2018, 04:49 PM
Next session is April 10-13 in Texas.

On April 10 what is the union exactly doing , is that the day when the actual negotiations start or how it works?

Bluedriver
04-02-2018, 06:18 PM
On April 10 what is the union exactly doing , is that the day when the actual negotiations start or how it works?

They've met every month for the last three YEARS. This is just another meeting, expect more delay, stall, spin, lies and blame. Oh, and insulting industry worst offers from the company.

P-3Bubba
04-03-2018, 02:58 AM
On April 10 what is the union exactly doing , is that the day when the actual negotiations start or how it works?

Are you serious Clarke?

-Bubs

CaptCoolHand
04-03-2018, 03:07 AM
On April 10 what is the union exactly doing , is that the day when the actual negotiations start or how it works?

Yes? Not really sure I understand the question. Theyíre meeting with the company to negotiate.

Pretty much what BD said

capt707
04-03-2018, 04:21 AM
They might as well print the "2,000 Days. It's Time" stickers, because nothing will happen.

Bozo the pilot
04-03-2018, 05:23 AM
They've met every month for the last three YEARS. This is just another meeting, expect more delay, stall, spin, lies and blame. Oh, and insulting industry worst offers from the company.

Absolutely- Lets hear the dissent from the true believers (juicers)- If there are any left. The company collaborators have recently been silenced by the B6 BS.
Maybe reality has set in.... CBA 2020:cool:

PasserOGas
04-03-2018, 05:24 AM
They might as well print the "2,000 Days. It's Time" stickers, because nothing will happen.

Contract 2025!

Bozo the pilot
04-03-2018, 05:27 AM
Contract 2025!

Youre probably closer pog- Guess Im an optimist.

kingair35
04-03-2018, 05:27 AM
I believe ALPA owes a counter proposal to the Virgin -1% offer. Ball is in our court. Should be interesting.

PasserOGas
04-03-2018, 06:22 AM
I believe ALPA owes a counter proposal to the Virgin -1% offer. Ball is in our court. Should be interesting.

Delta+50. Then we can meet at Delta+1.

FUPM

CaptCoolHand
04-03-2018, 06:34 AM
I believe ALPA owes a counter proposal to the Virgin -1% offer. Ball is in our court. Should be interesting.

We dont owe the company anything.

The companies last $$ offer was a joke. Was treated as such.

Just because the company says it should happen doesnít mean it does. Frankly anything that comes from the company regarding negotiations is garbage.

Thumbs882
04-03-2018, 06:39 AM
Nope heís right we should bring a new proposal to the table since the last one. A HIGHER proposal since there have been 2 signed agreements since that and since Alaska received their latest raise.

CaptCoolHand
04-03-2018, 07:14 AM
Talking rates before work rules are in place is like talking price before you know what kind of car youíre buying.

pilotpayne
04-03-2018, 08:54 AM
Absolutely- Lets hear the dissent from the true believers (juicers)- If there are any left. The company collaborators have recently been silenced by the B6 BS.
Maybe reality has set in.... CBA 2020:cool:



You should write PR releases for North Korea.

The true communist warriors have silenced the capitalist collaborators:)

Might make some extra cash while waiting for that call or a CBA.

P-3Bubba
04-03-2018, 10:02 AM
You should write PR releases for North Korea.

The true communist warriors have silenced the capitalist collaborators:)

Might make some extra cash while waiting for that call or a CBA.

Thats funny stuff.

BTW, Thumbs is right. ALPA should bring a proposal thats higher than the current Alaska rates. And rules. Im pretty sure ALPA has brought that too. The company consistently uses rates to negotiate the ALPA rules requests. The problem the company faces is that our rules suck so bad that there's nothing to give back.

Our pay rates are so far behind industry average that there's nowhere to negotiate rules for rates. They're beat at the table. So, the only way to negotiate when you're beat is to stall. The longer you stall the more you save. The only thing that ALPA could propose to speed things up would be a signing bonus that increases every month we operate without a TA.

-Bubs

MGMTiswatchingU
04-03-2018, 10:06 AM
We dont owe the company anything.

The companies last $$ offer was a joke. Was treated as such.

Just because the company says it should happen doesnít mean it does. Frankly anything that comes from the company regarding negotiations is garbage.

What was the company's last offer? Curious george.

Bluedriver
04-03-2018, 10:11 AM
What was the company's last offer? Curious george.

Pay rates less than Alaska in exchange for work rules concessions from our already non-existent work rules. So a La Royale CrapBurger with extra cheese...

MGMTiswatchingU
04-03-2018, 10:14 AM
Pay rates less than Alaska in exchange for work rules concessions from our already non-existent work rules. So a La Royale CrapBurger with extra cheese...

Gotcha.....doesn't sound like that cheese is any good.

Bluedriver
04-03-2018, 10:24 AM
Gotcha.....doesn't sound like that cheese is any good.

Rotten. Very rotten.

Blue Dude
04-03-2018, 10:25 AM
Pay rates less than Alaska in exchange for work rules concessions from our already non-existent work rules. So a La Royale CrapBurger with extra cheese...

True, but it was unclear if the scheduling concessions they wanted were from current book or from the new sections they had already closed out. Either way, they offered substandard rates and they wanted concessions just to get those. It was beyond insulting.

BeatNavy
04-03-2018, 11:05 AM
True, but it was unclear if the scheduling concessions they wanted were from current book or from the new sections they had already closed out. Either way, they offered substandard rates and they wanted concessions just to get those. It was beyond insulting.

Union said from current book.

P-3Bubba
04-03-2018, 12:23 PM
The current book is so vague, and favors the company in every respect. The reserve rules pretty much state ďwe own you for 16 hours from your RAP start.Ē Oh and management will call and trick you into extending to an 18 hour day.

-Bubs

Bozo the pilot
04-03-2018, 12:51 PM
You should write PR releases for North Korea.

The true communist warriors have silenced the capitalist collaborators:)

Might make some extra cash while waiting for that call or a CBA.

Or make money betting you on TA completion dates:D
Still hopin for 2017 Payne? I guess there's still some juice left.
Bpf is lovin you. xx

CaptCoolHand
04-03-2018, 01:16 PM
What was the company's last offer? Curious george.

Specific details were not released from either side. However the company seems more willing to negotiate in public. The company also cherry picks snipits and drops letters to the group as if ALPA is holding up the show...

Our union leaders said the last offer wasn't worth the time to read it as has been stated above. So JMO, it was a waste of paper.

MGMTiswatchingU
04-03-2018, 01:17 PM
Specific details were not released from either side. However the company seems more willing to negotiate in public. The company also cherry picks snipits and drops letters to the group as if ALPA is holding up the show...

Our union leaders said the last offer wasn't worth the time to read it as has been stated above. So JMO, it was a waste of paper.

Ahh gotcha, swiper the fox.

pilotpayne
04-04-2018, 05:34 AM
Or make money betting you on TA completion dates:D
Still hopin for 2017 Payne? I guess there's still some juice left.
Bpf is lovin you. xx

Oh yes lots of it, anyway it was just a little joke bozo donít get all mad, save your rage for our rsv rules.:D

CaptCoolHand
04-04-2018, 11:27 AM
Speaking of RSV rules... why do they call out RSV guy before the RSA guy? IMO if youre volunteering... you should go to work first. I'd rather stay at the crashpad or home. I hate the FSM.

Bozo the pilot
04-04-2018, 11:51 AM
Oh yes lots of it, anyway it was just a little joke bozo don’t get all mad, save your rage for our rsv rules.:D

Enjoy the juice pp. No rage here;)
btw did you write that check?

rvr1800
04-04-2018, 01:11 PM
Enjoy the juice pp. No rage here;)
btw did you write that check?

Have you started RSV life yet? The rage will come.

Rickce7
04-04-2018, 01:28 PM
Speaking of RSV rules... why do they call out RSV guy before the RSA guy? IMO if youre volunteering... you should go to work first. I'd rather stay at the crashpad or home. I hate the FSM.
I haven't sat RSV for more than 5 years now but this used to infuriate me. . . Some dude gets time and a half for sitting at home while you get called out for the SDQ redeye.

hilltopflyer
04-04-2018, 02:13 PM
Let's be real... if people got called out on rsa they wouldn't pick it up anymore.

pilotpayne
04-04-2018, 05:10 PM
Enjoy the juice pp. No rage here;)
btw did you write that check?

The Check is in the mail :D

Actually I do need to send it I owe 200 for my optimism.


I do wonder if if if we got a contract this year would any of the APC guys that say 2020 or no time soon or whatever, would they ever say they were wrong?


It would be a nice problem to have :D

hilltopflyer
04-04-2018, 06:13 PM
The Check is in the mail :D

Actually I do need to send it I owe 200 for my optimism.


I do wonder if if if we got a contract this year would any of the APC guys that say 2020 or no time soon or whatever, would they ever say they were wrong?


It would be a nice problem to have :D

I'm optimistic that it'll be right after the fa vote and before summer but the company hasn't shown any sign that is what they are going to do. The ball is in their court. They know what we want and what it'll take to get a yes vote. It just depends on how hard they wanna dig their heels in and ruin this company

rvr1800
04-05-2018, 04:25 AM
I'm optimistic that it'll be right after the fa vote and before summer but the company hasn't shown any sign that is what they are going to do. The ball is in their court. They know what we want and what it'll take to get a yes vote. It just depends on how hard they wanna dig their heels in and ruin this company

I used to share that optimism. I no longer do. I believe the company is making purely business decisions regarding this pilot group. Theyíve taken all emotion out of it therefore so have I. Thatís not the company we were sold but thatís the company we work at now. Iíve maintained my core values of Safety and Integrity. Caring, Fun, and Passion are distant memories. Almost completely forgotten and maybe impossible to regain. The company has also given up on Caring, Fun, and Passion but I believe integrity as well. As demonstrated in a less than honest negotiations update regarding Alaska rates.

We as pilots have more invested in this company than anyone in management. Most of us will be here for our careers. Most of management will not. We must ensure we make the right decisions for our future and the future of the pilots to come after us. That means, at a minimum, a market rate contract. Alaska rates and work rules do not define the market. Far from it.

I trust our NC and MEC to fight for what we deserve but it may be a long hard road that will test this pilot group, the management team, and jetBlue as a company. We must do what is right for this industry and our careers.

Ramble off/

hilltopflyer
04-05-2018, 04:53 AM
I used to share that optimism. I no longer do. I believe the company is making purely business decisions regarding this pilot group. Theyíve taken all emotion out of it therefore so have I. Thatís not the company we were sold but thatís the company we work at now. Iíve maintained my core values of Safety and Integrity. Caring, Fun, and Passion are distant memories. Almost completely forgotten and maybe impossible to regain. The company has also given up on Caring, Fun, and Passion but I believe integrity as well. As demonstrated in a less than honest negotiations update regarding Alaska rates.

We as pilots have more invested in this company than anyone in management. Most of us will be here for our careers. Most of management will not. We must ensure we make the right decisions for our future and the future of the pilots to come after us. That means, at a minimum, a market rate contract. Alaska rates and work rules do not define the market. Far from it.

I trust our NC and MEC to fight for what we deserve but it may be a long hard road that will test this pilot group, the management team, and jetBlue as a company. We must do what is right for this industry and our careers.

Ramble off/

Agreed completely. Management hasn't shown any sign of a TA anytime soon.

Bluedriver
04-05-2018, 05:14 AM
I used to share that optimism. I no longer do. I believe the company is making purely business decisions regarding this pilot group. Theyíve taken all emotion out of it therefore so have I. Thatís not the company we were sold but thatís the company we work at now. Iíve maintained my core values of Safety and Integrity. Caring, Fun, and Passion are distant memories. Almost completely forgotten and maybe impossible to regain. The company has also given up on Caring, Fun, and Passion but I believe integrity as well. As demonstrated in a less than honest negotiations update regarding Alaska rates.

We as pilots have more invested in this company than anyone in management. Most of us will be here for our careers. Most of management will not. We must ensure we make the right decisions for our future and the future of the pilots to come after us. That means, at a minimum, a market rate contract. Alaska rates and work rules do not define the market. Far from it.

I trust our NC and MEC to fight for what we deserve but it may be a long hard road that will test this pilot group, the management team, and jetBlue as a company. We must do what is right for this industry and our careers.

Ramble off/

Wow, you're really negative.


















And 100% correct.

queue
04-05-2018, 05:31 AM
I used to share that optimism. I no longer do. I believe the company is making purely business decisions regarding this pilot group. They’ve taken all emotion out of it therefore so have I. That’s not the company we were sold but that’s the company we work at now. I’ve maintained my core values of Safety and Integrity. Caring, Fun, and Passion are distant memories. Almost completely forgotten and maybe impossible to regain. The company has also given up on Caring, Fun, and Passion but I believe integrity as well. As demonstrated in a less than honest negotiations update regarding Alaska rates.

We as pilots have more invested in this company than anyone in management. Most of us will be here for our careers. Most of management will not. We must ensure we make the right decisions for our future and the future of the pilots to come after us. That means, at a minimum, a market rate contract. Alaska rates and work rules do not define the market. Far from it.

I trust our NC and MEC to fight for what we deserve but it may be a long hard road that will test this pilot group, the management team, and jetBlue as a company. We must do what is right for this industry and our careers.

Ramble off/


That is the truth of it.

Never let anyone ever again fall for the emotional exploitation of family, caring, compassion, etc. These are one-way streets. Management 101 MBAs will always exploit your good sides, your human sides. They will personify the "corporation" so that you treat it with all the benefits of a family member or close friend, as another human being. However, the company will never jump on the grenade for you or do anything for you if you become too big a liability. A company is a legal entity, nothing more. The ONLY thing this company, as a legal entity, will ever do is to maximize profits for shareholders, fund golden parachutes, and lower its costs so that its balance sheet looks better to a buyer.

It really bothers me when corporations masquerade themselves under monikers such as family, culture, values, and so on. It's all spin for the intellectually disadvantaged. There are much better priorities in life than some empty corporate spin. It's better to focus on God, family, friends, and neighbors. Everything else just leads to making more money for your employer.

Come to work, make good friends, enjoy the travel, but never trust people who make you sign contracts or hide contracts in mandatory training. They are not your friends or family.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

pilotpayne
04-05-2018, 06:29 AM
I'm optimistic that it'll be right after the fa vote and before summer but the company hasn't shown any sign that is what they are going to do. The ball is in their court. They know what we want and what it'll take to get a yes vote. It just depends on how hard they wanna dig their heels in and ruin this company

That is the question.
Will it ruin the company? I donít know, I have asked myself that and Iím not sure. Obviously the ďcultureĒ has changed and everyone seems annoyed. But would getting a CBA and knowing where the company is going change that? In some ways this culture change is good. It is time for the company to grow up. As Barger would say what got us here wonít get us there. I think we need a different CEO. I think RH is a smart guy but he needs to be in a different position on the leadership team. I feel his leadership style is to talk to the LSC guys and pretty much ignore the rest of us.
Maybe the guy has an actual plan but we sure had heck havenít seen it.

LoudFastRules
04-05-2018, 07:45 AM
That is the question.
Will it ruin the company? I donít know, I have asked myself that and Iím not sure. Obviously the ďcultureĒ has changed and everyone seems annoyed. But would getting a CBA and knowing where the company is going change that? In some ways this culture change is good. It is time for the company to grow up. As Barger would say what got us here wonít get us there. I think we need a different CEO. I think RH is a smart guy but he needs to be in a different position on the leadership team. I feel his leadership style is to talk to the LSC guys and pretty much ignore the rest of us.
Maybe the guy has an actual plan but we sure had heck havenít seen it.

I haven't seen any evidence that RH is a "smart guy". He's a non-entity. He personifies de-minimus. The company has no vision, no plan, and doesn't seem to care. Now, having said all that, I just want a CBA. Their lack of vision, lack of planning, and lack of leadership is their problem, not mine. Let the board figure that one out. Just give me a CBA, and let me bid and work my schedule.

FUPM

queue
04-05-2018, 07:54 AM
That is the question.
Will it ruin the company? I donít know, I have asked myself that and Iím not sure. Obviously the ďcultureĒ has changed and everyone seems annoyed. But would getting a CBA and knowing where the company is going change that? In some ways this culture change is good. It is time for the company to grow up. As Barger would say what got us here wonít get us there. I think we need a different CEO. I think RH is a smart guy but he needs to be in a different position on the leadership team. I feel his leadership style is to talk to the LSC guys and pretty much ignore the rest of us.
Maybe the guy has an actual plan but we sure had heck havenít seen it.

Don't believe for a second that anything the pilot or FA union do will sink the company. That is a false choice and non-truthful narrative put out by people who want to maximize their profit margins at your expense (CEO, VPs, SVPs, investors, shareholders, special interests, union busters).

If an airline goes under, it won't ever be because of the cost of having humans. If the operating cost increases, fares go up by a penny or two. It's no different than dealing with fluctuating fuel prices. It's just the cost of doing business. The only difference between pilots/FAs and other overhead costs is that others are not very negotiable. For example, Airbus doesn't flex too much on their prices. Spare parts aren't really negotiable prices unless purchased in quantity. Pilots and FAs, on the other hand, have essentially told management that our compensation is always negotiable with no bottom. So, they will manufacture scenarios where they can make a logical case for paying employees less. For example, look at the Trump tax cuts. It's historic in quantity yet you only got $1,000. How much is BJ saving? Did they use that money to manipulate stock options?

Bottom line is that BJ could pay Delta rates+, give industry leading contractual work rules, and STILL be highly profitable. If they're not, the blame falls squarely on the management of the company. Remember that management has secret and public objectives. You don't know what secret objectives they have because they will not benefit you.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

pilotpayne
04-05-2018, 07:55 AM
I haven't seen any evidence that RH is a "smart guy". He's a non-entity. He personifies de-minimus. The company has no vision, no plan, and doesn't seem to care. Now, having said all that, I just want a CBA. Their lack of vision, lack of planning, and lack of leadership is their problem, not mine. Let the board figure that one out. Just give me a CBA, and let me bid and work my schedule.

FUPM

I always like when people say give me a CBA I donít care about the vision or the planning or anything like that.

That is a good way to have a CBA but no airline.

Look is there anything we can do about that not really, but I would prefer our airline be around. Lack of vision or any plan is concerning.

queue
04-05-2018, 08:34 AM
Look is there anything we can do about that not really, but I would prefer our airline be around. Lack of vision or any plan is concerning.


There is a vision, but it doesn't involve you. Sinking your own company is a viable way to get yourself sold. Think about it. Their ONLY concern is reducing costs and maximizing profit.

Listen to investor meetings. 95% of the conversation is about RASM, PRASM, overhead cost, network capacity (overcapacity), fleet plans, routes, and overall financials. If employee compensation were such a big deal, it would occupy more than 1 question.

Don't be misled into thinking there's no plan. There is a plan - multiple plans in fact. You just don't know about them. However, you can be guaranteed none of them are designed to be in your best interests. So, it's your duty to look out for yourself via the union. Make yourself a market force or else you will be a victim to whatever they end up doing.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

N311JB
04-05-2018, 08:39 AM
The is a vision for B6. Its to run as lean as possible without taking catastrophic losses. You ever wonder why our stock sucks? Cause itís so diluted from paying the higher ups with options. Every IROP costs us, yes but itís far less than the overhead Que is talking about. They can afford the hiccups over time cause itís cheaper than hiring more help. They want to shear the sheep as lean and as many times as possible without skinning it. Thatís the vision. And we are sheep

pilotpayne
04-05-2018, 10:08 AM
There is a vision, but it doesn't involve you. Sinking your own company is a viable way to get yourself sold. Think about it. Their ONLY concern is reducing costs and maximizing profit.

Listen to investor meetings. 95% of the conversation is about RASM, PRASM, overhead cost, network capacity (overcapacity), fleet plans, routes, and overall financials. If employee compensation were such a big deal, it would occupy more than 1 question.

Don't be misled into thinking there's no plan. There is a plan - multiple plans in fact. You just don't know about them. However, you can be guaranteed none of them are designed to be in your best interests. So, it's your duty to look out for yourself via the union. Make yourself a market force or else you will be a victim to whatever they end up doing.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.



Ha dude you need to fight Wall St.
I remember there was an article when AA pilots got a raise one of the analysts was literally like WTF who cares about them how about your investors. They talk about RASM and CASM because thatís all Wall St
gives a crap about. Letís be realistic in the world of capitalism reducing cost and maximizing profit is the goal. Taking care of your people tends to be the exception to the norm.

We get stuck in we are to small so Wall St is like you are to small to compete than we say we want to grow and the freak about capacity itís a no win situation.

pilotpayne
04-05-2018, 10:11 AM
Don't believe for a second that anything the pilot or FA union do will sink the company. That is a false choice and non-truthful narrative put out by people who want to maximize their profit margins at your expense (CEO, VPs, SVPs, investors, shareholders, special interests, union busters).

If an airline goes under, it won't ever be because of the cost of having humans. If the operating cost increases, fares go up by a penny or two. It's no different than dealing with fluctuating fuel prices. It's just the cost of doing business. The only difference between pilots/FAs and other overhead costs is that others are not very negotiable. For example, Airbus doesn't flex too much on their prices. Spare parts aren't really negotiable prices unless purchased in quantity. Pilots and FAs, on the other hand, have essentially told management that our compensation is always negotiable with no bottom. So, they will manufacture scenarios where they can make a logical case for paying employees less. For example, look at the Trump tax cuts. It's historic in quantity yet you only got $1,000. How much is BJ saving? Did they use that money to manipulate stock options?

Bottom line is that BJ could pay Delta rates+, give industry leading contractual work rules, and STILL be highly profitable. If they're not, the blame falls squarely on the management of the company. Remember that management has secret and public objectives. You don't know what secret objectives they have because they will not benefit you.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


I wasnít saying our CBA would sink the company. I was talking about the ELT sinking it and they most certainly could. Thatís why I said there isnít much we can do about it. All we can really do is build in as many protections in that CBA as possible.

LoudFastRules
04-05-2018, 10:13 AM
I always like when people say give me a CBA I donít care about the vision or the planning or anything like that.

That is a good way to have a CBA but no airline.

Look is there anything we can do about that not really, but I would prefer our airline be around. Lack of vision or any plan is concerning.

I didn't say I don't want the company to have a vision. I just said it's not my job. My vision is that they run this place like SWA - treat us very well, and we will return the favor. That obviously ain't happening.

queue
04-05-2018, 11:09 AM
I wasnít saying our CBA would sink the company. I was talking about the ELT sinking it and they most certainly could. Thatís why I said there isnít much we can do about it. All we can really do is build in as many protections in that CBA as possible.

Fair enough and well said.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
04-05-2018, 11:19 AM
Ha dude you need to fight Wall St.
I remember there was an article when AA pilots got a raise one of the analysts was literally like WTF who cares about them how about your investors. They talk about RASM and CASM because thatís all Wall St
gives a crap about. Letís be realistic in the world of capitalism reducing cost and maximizing profit is the goal. Taking care of your people tends to be the exception to the norm.

We get stuck in we are to small so Wall St is like you are to small to compete than we say we want to grow and the freak about capacity itís a no win situation.


Yes, Wall Street is a BIG part of the problem but the problem is not Capitalism itself. It's the American flavor of robber barron capitalism, propped up by government intervention. Corporatism is the problem.

Capitalism is not inherently evil. Capitalism is merely the freedom to provide a service in exchange for compensation which in turn provides the ability to provide a wage to employees. It is nothing more than that.

So our job is to make Wall Street operate within moral and ethical guidelines by influencing market forces.

I love Capitalism (as opposed to Communism or Socialism) because anything is negotiable. We can get what we want from our employer through market forces. For example, if the government weren't involved, we could all stage a walk-out or sick-out until we get paid what our market value demands. Of course American Capitalism has been hijacked by "corporatism", where the big corporations write the laws and manipulate the government to help them (e.g. the pathetic excuse for a law known as the RLA). So another part of our duty is to either make government work for us (e.g. remove corporate benefits from the RLA) or to vote out law making public servants who are sell outs.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

N311JB
04-05-2018, 12:52 PM
Yes, Wall Street is a BIG part of the problem but the problem is not Capitalism itself. It's the American flavor of robber barron capitalism, propped up by government intervention. Corporatism is the problem.

Capitalism is not inherently evil. Capitalism is merely the freedom to provide a service in exchange for compensation which in turn provides the ability to provide a wage to employees. It is nothing more than that.

So our job is to make Wall Street operate within moral and ethical guidelines by influencing market forces.

I love Capitalism (as opposed to Communism or Socialism) because anything is negotiable. We can get what we want from our employer through market forces. For example, if the government weren't involved, we could all stage a walk-out or sick-out until we get paid what our market value demands. Of course American Capitalism has been hijacked by "corporatism", where the big corporations write the laws and manipulate the government to help them (e.g. the pathetic excuse for a law known as the RLA). So another part of our duty is to either make government work for us (e.g. remove corporate benefits from the RLA) or to vote out law making public servants who are sell outs.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

But theyíre Job Creators. Jobs Jobs Jobs
In the words of my favorite comedian Bill Burr. This dragged out, painful process weíre in, is just so some ďa**hole can have another 2 feet on their mega yacht.Ē

Bluedriver
04-05-2018, 01:21 PM
But theyíre Job Creators. Jobs Jobs Jobs
In the words of my favorite comedian Bill Burr. This dragged out, painful process weíre in, is just so some ďa**hole can have another 2 feet on their mega yacht.Ē

Yep. They can't have everything if we have something.

queue
04-05-2018, 01:27 PM
But theyíre Job Creators. Jobs Jobs Jobs
In the words of my favorite comedian Bill Burr. This dragged out, painful process weíre in, is just so some ďa**hole can have another 2 feet on their mega yacht.Ē

No, these people are not the job creators. These are management types who cannot innovate or create. They are the absolute worst people to have in management but in American management schools, they are idolized as the right personality type. The right type of people are the Elon Musks of the world, the Steve Jobs, the Nikola Teslas, etc. What we have instead are the Eric Schmidts, Steve Ballmers, Marissa Mayers of the world. Basically, the scum of the earth that can't do anything else in life so they spend their entire life looking out for their own prosperity rather than being humanity's finest visionaries.

Again, it's a tough job but we need to have influence on the corporate boards to hire the right people rather than career politicians or managers who've never actually created anything.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

dontsurf
04-06-2018, 06:46 AM
i still think that if i were in the negotiating room, i would just put this on the table and say nothing:

ok, i clearly do not know how to post a picture, but it is the profit per passenger chart that others have posted on here, showing jetblue making an average profit of $29/passenger, while united is at $14, and American is at $10. shareholders are not screaming about how much their pilots make.

i am not trying to Monday morning quarterback or anything. it is just that since this came out, i can't think of it any other way.

i agree with others on here that our negotiating committee should come back to the table and ask for MORE.

point out that "American pilots make ____ and their shareholders and management are happy with this amount of profit", and "delta pilots make _____ and their shareholders and management are happy with this amount of profit". we want to make _____, and jetblue might not make 2-3 times as much profit as the other airlines anymore, but they will still have a healthy profit to make shareholders happy. and maybe by paying our pilots like their peers, we can make them happy, motivated employees, if there is any goodwill left at all.

django
04-12-2018, 07:20 AM
Q your seemingly endless parade of childish chatacterizations while entertaining at times, is getting old. You seem to have just enough knowledge of sociopoliticics to get into trouble.

If you are going to treat Capitalism as a social construct in where freedom is a consequence or prerequisite then both empirical and historical evidence contradicts your position.

Furthermore American capitalism while different from European is not alone in glorifying oligarchs.

queue
04-12-2018, 07:57 AM
Q your seemingly endless parade of childish chatacterizations while entertaining at times, is getting old. You seem to have just enough knowledge of sociopoliticics to get into trouble.

If you are going to treat Capitalism as a social construct in where freedom is a consequence or prerequisite then both empirical and historical evidence contradicts your position.

Furthermore American capitalism while different from European is not alone in glorifying oligarchs.


Go back to the status quo then. You defeatists seem to like your enslavement. I don't like it.

If you read what I say carefully, plus you spend some time on Wikipedia, you'll see there is no contradiction in what I say, unless you argue in soundbites. Capitalism is a completely malleable construct where all stakeholders have power. Pilots just don't recognize their function as a market force.

And for the record, I am very much AGAINST European "capitalism". Only Switzerland is Capitalistic in Europe and that's why it's not part of the E.U. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations)

What I find childish is the status-quo sheepish, defeatist, conquered attitudes of BJ pilots.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

aldonite7667
04-12-2018, 08:27 AM
Q your seemingly endless parade of childish chatacterizations while entertaining at times, is getting old. You seem to have just enough knowledge of sociopoliticics to get into trouble.

If you are going to treat Capitalism as a social construct in where freedom is a consequence or prerequisite then both empirical and historical evidence contradicts your position.

Furthermore American capitalism while different from European is not alone in glorifying oligarchs.


Iím sorry, I donít understand. You didnít even change the color of you post or post pictures of General Patten.

django
04-12-2018, 10:42 AM
Q is your sense of self importance is just outstanding.
Try not to characterize everything in such caustic manner.
And no the Swiss are not the most capitalist nation in Europe and no that was not the reason they opted out.

queue
04-12-2018, 02:24 PM
Q is your sense of self importance is just outstanding.
Try not to characterize everything in such caustic manner.
And no the Swiss are not the most capitalist nation in Europe and no that was not the reason they opted out.

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