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View Full Version : ATI Numbers Leaked


Jason605
03-02-2018, 04:46 PM
From a source within ATI and it looks like I was right. They were offered nearly exactly what ABX turned down.

So ATI pilots, are you gonna be the whiping boys or fight for a standard? ATI offer is 60 hours and 13 periods. ABX is currently 68 hours and 12 periods. They obviously even offered ABX lower hours to get to these numbers.

Now is definitely not the time for concessions or whipsawing. Don't go for this ATI. ATSG is making money hand over fist and if ATSG gets sold they'll make even more.

Vote that garbage down. No wonder this has been held so close to the chest. Can't wait to see the retirement.

(The first pic is the ATI TA, the second is what ABX has already been offered and subsequently turned down)


https://s14.postimg.org/o2aswjp3x/IMG_0986.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/o2aswjp3x/)

https://s14.postimg.org/bno0w85bh/IMG_0987.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/bno0w85bh/)


Jurassic Jet
03-02-2018, 04:57 PM
Can't wait to see the retirement.



Don't hold your breath! :eek:

kolt66
03-02-2018, 05:07 PM
Just as bad as we thought it was going to be.


Jurassic Jet
03-02-2018, 05:16 PM
Just as bad as we thought it was going to be.

Yeah but there is a SJS carrot in it that will suck a lot of them in.

Jason605
03-02-2018, 05:21 PM
What's worse is that I just heard the Omni numbers will be out soon and they blow this out of the water.

Jurassic Jet
03-02-2018, 05:37 PM
What's worse is that I just heard the Omni numbers will be out soon and they blow this out of the water.

It would just be unfathomable if garbage like these numbers passes with the earnings release that came out yesterday.

Captjim
03-02-2018, 07:02 PM
Well no wonder they didn't want to post the TA! :eek:

Wings1856
03-02-2018, 08:00 PM
Jason I seriously doubt your sources. First of all those guys are in DC and the whole thing is very tightlipped. Maybe it is a turd. Believe me we’ll shoot it down if it is. Number one I know there’s more money on the table number two I don’t think it will go to mediation.
Sounds like Omni is gonna put out the TA next week as well. Who knows perhaps we have a “me to” clause in there. Either way this ATI pilot won’t settle for turd contract in this environment. And most of the pilots I know I feel the same way. Don’t misunderstand our relative silence. We are allowing our CNC To do their job.

l8fr82hub
03-02-2018, 08:17 PM
What is the ABX definition of “current book”? Hourly x guarantee? Or is anything else included?

727CA
03-02-2018, 08:20 PM
Jason I seriously doubt your sources. First of all those guys are in DC and the whole thing is very tightlipped. Maybe it is a turd. Believe me we’ll shoot it down if it is. Number one I know there’s more money on the table number two I don’t think it will go to mediation.
Sounds like him he’s gonna put out there TA next week as well. Who knows perhaps we have a me to clause in there. Either way this ATI pilot won’t settle for turd contract in this environment And most of the pilots I know I feel the same way, we just like to keep it professional.

agreed. You guys would be surprised how many ATI pilots will vote that down. I doubt that is the real proposed pay scale but if it is they won't be getting my vote.

Jason605
03-02-2018, 08:21 PM
Jason I seriously doubt your sources. First of all those guys are in DC and the whole thing is very tightlipped. Maybe it is a turd. Believe me we’ll shoot it down if it is. Number one I know there’s more money on the table number two I don’t think it will go to mediation.
Sounds like him he’s gonna put out there TA next week as well. Who knows perhaps we have a me to clause in there. Either way this ATI pilot won’t settle for turd contract in this environment And most of the pilots I know I feel the same way, we just like to keep it professional.

If this doc is false, I'll fully retract, but I'm fairly confident that won't happen. Time will tell if the rest of ATI thinks like you. Hopefully they do.

Jason605
03-02-2018, 08:25 PM
What is the ABX definition of “current book”? Hourly x guarantee? Or is anything else included?

Nothing else included. Hourly X Guarantee

l8fr82hub
03-02-2018, 08:26 PM
Nothing else included. Hourly X Guarantee
Okay then. Trying to make a fair comparison

freighthound
03-02-2018, 09:40 PM
The Company's proposals are identical as far as annual salary guarantee. The offer amount at ABX was based on a 64 hour guarantee and the guarantee TA'd at ATI was based on 60 hours for 13 bid periods. The total annual guaranteed salary at both is the same. The big difference is those rates were rejected at ABX but apparently accepted by the MEC at ATI. It is 15 month old Kalitta pay rates. Kalitta is already into their 3rd month of DOS +1, which I believe contained a 5% increase. The rates lag a year behind Kalitta throughout the life of the contract.

freighthound
03-03-2018, 03:27 AM
The Company's proposals are identical as far as annual salary guarantee. The offer amount at ABX was based on a 64 hour guarantee and the guarantee TA'd at ATI was based on 60 hours for 13 bid periods. The total annual guaranteed salary at both is the same. The big difference is those rates were rejected at ABX but apparently accepted by the MEC at ATI. It is 15 month old Kalitta pay rates. Kalitta is already into their 3rd month of DOS +1, which I believe contained a 5% increase. The rates lag a year behind Kalitta throughout the life of the contract.
This is of course assuming the numbers posted at the beginning of the thread were correct.

Dick Cabeza
03-03-2018, 07:27 AM
Ok like the Pay Scale or Not....

Whoever posted the proposed TA payscale, should be in my humble opinion should be hung, if not prosecuted legally. (Too bad they wiped the metadata from the pic)

That information, if real is stolen goods, maybe HR will get involved?

Wait for the package, then make an Informed decision!

FlyLate
03-03-2018, 07:36 AM
Those numbers show a mere 29% pay increase for 12+ year captains above current rate plus COLA. That's not adequate.

Wings1856
03-03-2018, 07:43 AM
ok like the pay scale or not....

Whoever posted the proposed ta payscale, should be in my humble opinion should be hung, if not prosecuted legally. (too bad they wiped the metadata from the pic)

that information, if real is stolen goods, maybe hr will get involved?

Wait for the package, then make an informed decision!

^^^^^^^
what he said!!

Industry Strnd
03-03-2018, 08:51 AM
Ok like the Pay Scale or Not....

Whoever posted the proposed TA payscale, should be in my humble opinion should be hung, if not prosecuted legally. (Too bad they wiped the metadata from the pic)

That information, if real is stolen goods, maybe HR will get involved?

Wait for the package, then make an Informed decision!

Typical ALPA sales job. This person was influenced by alpa staff. These aresales job words. "Nevermind we are behind the rest of the industry in rates look at the language we cleaned up." When will they ever just do their job and pattern bargin it today's environment?

So hang someone for posting the truth? When you keep everything a secret and then try to justify why you fell short, you sir are the one who needs punishment!
Obviously the picture was. Taken by someone with access to the proposal and feels differently than you. Maybe he actually has some courage to say trying to sell a substandard contract is BS! I hope this goes down just like the first Delta and Southwest TA and them they come back with a real contract.

Dick Cabeza
03-03-2018, 09:44 AM
Typical ALPA sales job. This person was influenced by alpa staff. These aresales job words. "Nevermind we are behind the rest of the industry in rates look at the language we cleaned up." When will they ever just do their job and pattern bargin it today's environment?

So hang someone for posting the truth? When you keep everything a secret and then try to justify why you fell short, you sir are the one who needs punishment!
Obviously the picture was. Taken by someone with access to the proposal and feels differently than you. Maybe he actually has some courage to say trying to sell a substandard contract is BS! I hope this goes down just like the first Delta and Southwest TA and them they come back with a real contract.

You think Im an ALPA Stooge, far from it my friend!

I have voted No on Every Contract at this company. And will probably Vote No on this one. Yes im Legacy ATI if you are wondering.. I am guessing you are not ATI at all.
But if you think STEALING confidential information is Courageous and/or Honorable, then my friend you are a moron.

We do not join a Union, ALPA, Teamsters or whatever to have Chaos in the Negotiating Process. If You think you can do better, when this dog is voted down, Volunteer for the Committee. Then if some Jacka$$ subverts your work by Stealing information, tell me if that works for you.

Industry Strnd
03-03-2018, 09:49 AM
What the big secret? Why has every other out the carrier put out their numbers right away probably cuz they were proud of them these numbers are nothing to be proud of it still bottom-feeder and everytime you walk through the terminal with the airline ticket you're going to have to have your head down because everybody else in the industry including spirit makes more money than you because Alpa doesn't have the knowledge to just get a industry standard contract.

MentalMidget
03-03-2018, 10:02 AM
"The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new."

-Socrates

ATI pilots- Focus on MUCH needed improvements across the board, not just pay!

Industry Strnd
03-03-2018, 10:05 AM
ALPA trying to control the message:

Dont debate except internal

Wait for the whole package

Failure to release for fear of pilots latching onto 1 item

Talk to only your reps don't listen to opinions of others..... this is a union correct? Other union members are getting record breaking contracts and releasing the details immediately right?
Am I missing a buzz words?

As far as the guy who put it out was he under an NDA, ALPA will threaten him hit when it comes down to it they won't do anything for fear of getting sued plus every member will be ****ed at alpa for one guy showing the truth...so by all means go after the guy and further lead people to understand how screwed up alpa is.

Jason605
03-03-2018, 11:33 AM
ALPA trying to control the message:

Dont debate except internal

Wait for the whole package

Failure to release for fear of pilots latching onto 1 item

Talk to only your reps don't listen to opinions of others..... this is a union correct? Other union members are getting record breaking contracts and releasing the details immediately right?
Am I missing a buzz words?

As far as the guy who put it out was he under an NDA, ALPA will threaten him hit when it comes down to it they won't do anything for fear of getting sued plus every member will be ****ed at alpa for one guy showing the truth...so by all means go after the guy and further lead people to understand how screwed up alpa is.

^^ This ^^

l8fr82hub
03-03-2018, 01:28 PM
Intriguing and vague, but if you guys are getting a 50% raise, then I guess that's pretty good. Even if it's 50% on top of an already low amount. I say sign it and rock on. I don't think you guys could do much better than that.



You’re very fickle Jason.

boiler
03-03-2018, 02:53 PM
Ok like the Pay Scale or Not....



Whoever posted the proposed TA payscale, should be in my humble opinion should be hung, if not prosecuted legally. (Too bad they wiped the metadata from the pic)



That information, if real is stolen goods, maybe HR will get involved?



Wait for the package, then make an Informed decision!



That sounds an awful lot like a threat...if he can’t be legally prosecuted you want to hang him. Comments like that are a very good way to lose your job. HR does not take comments like that lightly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

earlybird77w
03-03-2018, 03:21 PM
https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2017/07/27/104614272-GettyImages-520716340.1910x1000.jpg?v=1505856550

Jurassic Jet
03-03-2018, 03:24 PM
Ok like the Pay Scale or Not....

Whoever posted the proposed TA payscale, should be in my humble opinion should be hung, if not prosecuted legally. (Too bad they wiped the metadata from the pic)

That information, if real is stolen goods, maybe HR will get involved?

Wait for the package, then make an Informed decision!


^^^^^^^
what he said!!


That sounds an awful lot like a threat...if he can’t be legally prosecuted you want to hang him. Comments like that are a very good way to lose your job. HR does not take comments like that lightly.


Just gathering things up for safe keeping. ;)

Twister5527
03-03-2018, 03:33 PM
You’re very fickle Jason.



Reverse psychology. A tactic often used on children


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mukalel
03-03-2018, 03:52 PM
Yeah but there is a SJS carrot in it that will suck a lot of them in.

What is SJS??

boiler
03-03-2018, 04:01 PM
What is SJS??



Shiny Jet Syndrome


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jurassic Jet
03-03-2018, 04:01 PM
What is SJS??

Shiny Jet Syndrome

pedrofer
03-03-2018, 04:09 PM
Are they adding 777 to their fleet?

CactusCrew
03-03-2018, 04:15 PM
In this case, it could mean ****ty Jet Syndrome

:D

Red Baron
03-03-2018, 04:22 PM
Are they adding 777 to their fleet?

New 777's and 767's as part of an Amazon deal with Boeing. Part of the "BIG" announcement that could happen this month.

Red Baron
03-03-2018, 04:25 PM
In this case, it could mean ****ty Jet Syndrome

:D

Surely you meant Pretty Jet Syndrome......:cool:

vroll1800
03-03-2018, 05:48 PM
Surely you meant Pretty Jet Syndrome......:cool:

No, Manfred, that would change acronym to "PJS", which isn't too far removed from PMS. :p

Wings1856
03-03-2018, 07:30 PM
https://fm.cnbc.com/applications/cnbc.com/resources/img/editorial/2017/07/27/104614272-GettyImages-520716340.1910x1000.jpg?v=1505856550
"Mmmmmm.....ONE BILLION DOLLARS!!" MMWAHAAA!!...MMWAHHAAA!!..."

No Land 3
03-03-2018, 08:58 PM
So... How many hours must a new 777 be flown each day just to pay the lease? I thought it was obscene. Doesn’t sound like something a wise ACMI would want to pay for unless you removed costs elsewhere...

Birdsmash
03-03-2018, 09:28 PM
So... How many hours must a new 777 be flown each day just to pay the lease? I thought it was obscene. Doesn’t sound like something a wise ACMI would want to pay for unless you removed costs elsewhere...

A new 777 lease runs about $1.5 million/month ($50k/day). That is what Southern’s previous owners were paying. The out the door price is about $170 million for a brand new 777F. It is not a jet you want sitting around or flying short segments regularly.

motorclutch
03-04-2018, 01:25 AM
OMG....hang him? Obviously a management troll wrote this. The standard tactic of creating fear and intimidation in the hopes no one will notice the reach-around!

Jason605
03-04-2018, 03:47 AM
This thread went dark quick. :D. I see lots of deflection and think it's important to stay focused on the issues.

Like, how bad is the rest of it if this is what is being offered? Judging just from a few responses here about "pilots would be a no vote on rates like this", I think you guys should be asking what was the rush to accept a sloppy seconds offer? And now, these rates for up to a 777 sized plane?

FmrPropCapt
03-04-2018, 11:45 AM
Possible to post a clear photo of the numbers? Can't read them... look like a blurry mess

Industry Strnd
03-05-2018, 06:49 AM
Appears an omni pilot will have a much bigger pay check retirement and qol over an ati pilot.

l8fr82hub
03-05-2018, 07:00 AM
If those leaked numbers are correct this TA is gonna be hard to sell now that we know Omni's numbers.

kolt66
03-05-2018, 07:29 AM
If those leaked numbers are correct this TA is gonna be hard to sell now that we know Omni's numbers.

Where are the Omni numbers?

MentalMidget
03-05-2018, 07:35 AM
https://www.indeedjobs.com/omni-air-international-1416530/jobs/918f1a89ff78e05972bb/_hl/en_US


try this

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bo7rvzduyka5g2o/2018%20TA%20Highlights%20%28Omni%20and%20IBT%20Loc al%201224%29.pdf?dl=0

l8fr82hub
03-05-2018, 07:36 AM
Here
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bo7rvzduyka5g2o/2018%20TA%20Highlights%20%28Omni%20and%20IBT%20Loc al%201224%29.pdf?dl=0

sherpster
03-05-2018, 08:11 AM
I got fooled again my another ATI/Amazon thread that usually just ends up being clickbait. With that said, those Omni numbers are pretty good. Does 17 days on include the travel time from home? They did well for themselves, really well.

Prediction: ATI doesnt even come close to those numbers because they have "Amazon" dreams. When asked who they work for, I bet over 75% say "Amazon Prime Air" when they should just say "some crappy cargo outfit at CVG".

Does saying you work for Amazon actually pay the bills? Instead of sending a check to the electric company just put a little note in the envelope that says "I work for Amazon" or send a picture of you in front of your Prime Air 767.....you can use the same picture you have posted to Facebook.

I feel bad for all the ACMI pilots hoping ATI pilots do the right thing.

MentalMidget
03-05-2018, 08:18 AM
I got fooled again my another ATI/Amazon thread that usually just ends up being clickbait. With that said, those Omni numbers are pretty good. Does 17 days on include the travel time from home? They did well for themselves, really well.

Prediction: ATI doesnt even come close to those numbers because they have "Amazon" dreams. When asked who they work for, I bet over 75% say "Amazon Prime Air" when they should just say "some crappy cargo outfit at CVG".

Does saying you work for Amazon actually pay the bills? Instead of sending a check to the electric company just put a little note in the envelope that says "I work for Amazon" or send a picture of you in front of your Prime Air 767.....you can use the same picture you have posted to Facebook.

I feel bad for all the ACMI pilots hoping ATI pilots do the right thing.


Its NOT doing the right thing , its a big NO vote until the TA is at least at par....THAT'S THE RIGHT THING

Industry Strnd
03-05-2018, 08:43 AM
https://www.investornetwork.com/company/23473

gumpscheck
03-05-2018, 11:12 AM
Prediction: ATI doesnt even come close to those numbers because they have "Amazon" dreams. When asked who they work for, I bet over 75% say "Amazon Prime Air" when they should just say "some crappy cargo outfit at CVG".

Does saying you work for Amazon actually pay the bills? Instead of sending a check to the electric company just put a little note in the envelope that says "I work for Amazon" or send a picture of you in front of your Prime Air 767.....you can use the same picture you have posted to Facebook.

I feel bad for all the ACMI pilots hoping ATI pilots do the right thing.

Those are good observations. You could also add if they can pay their electric bill with the “home basing” benefits. Or send their kids to college and/or buy a car. They are allowing themselves to be fooled by the rhetoric from ATSG management claiming home basing is worth somewhere between $30k and $17k. I recommend to take the money and buy your own tickets if that’s so important to you. I guarantee you won’t spend that much money.

MentalMidget
03-05-2018, 12:03 PM
Those are good observations. You could also add if they can pay their electric bill with the “home basing” benefits. Or send their kids to college and/or buy a car. They are allowing themselves to be fooled by the rhetoric from ATSG management claiming home basing is worth somewhere between $30k and $17k. I recommend to take the money and buy your own tickets if that’s so important to you. I guarantee you won’t spend that much money.


I wonder if the Omni pilots fell for the same rhetoric about home basing value. Management will always over value talking points, that's their job, to sell us a bill of goods. A perfect example is ATI's brand new flight attendant contract that they passed. Laughing stock of the industry. Their MEC sold the membership down the river and they voted it in ...go figure. We can't afford that, Amazon won't pay for that, your not worth this, we can only pay this etc., etc., the list is exhausting. If the ATI pilots are stupid enough to vote a substandard long term contract in, then shame on them.

No Land 3
03-05-2018, 03:13 PM
I wonder if the Omni pilots fell for the same rhetoric about home basing value. Management will always over value talking points, that's their job, to sell us a bill of goods. A perfect example is ATI's brand new flight attendant contract that they passed. Laughing stock of the industry. Their MEC sold the membership down the river and they voted it in ...go figure. We can't afford that, Amazon won't pay for that, your not worth this, we can only pay this etc., etc., the list is exhausting. If the ATI pilots are stupid enough to vote a substandard long term contract in, then shame on them.

The very second the MEC appears to be doing a sales job to the pilot group, arguing in favor of management, you need to clean house, fire all of them. I witnessed this with BR at Mesa. Stockholm Syndrome is real, and those infected need to be removed from all union posts.

midnightshuttle
03-05-2018, 04:29 PM
The very second the MEC appears to be doing a sales job to the pilot group, arguing in favor of management, you need to clean house, fire all of them. I witnessed this with BR at Mesa. Stockholm Syndrome is real, and those infected need to be removed from all union posts.



Tomorrow, the MEC, the company, the CNC. Will come out present and support this TA.

Da way it works bro

Edwardo, Rodricco, Juan Vestalez say they have a finger on the pulse of group here. Ol’ Red Face Bucky!

Captjim
03-06-2018, 04:08 AM
The very second the MEC appears to be doing a sales job to the pilot group, arguing in favor of management, you need to clean house, fire all of them. I witnessed this with BR at Mesa. Stockholm Syndrome is real, and those infected need to be removed from all union posts.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^

MentalMidget
03-06-2018, 04:38 AM
The very second the MEC appears to be doing a sales job to the pilot group, arguing in favor of management, you need to clean house, fire all of them. I witnessed this with BR at Mesa. Stockholm Syndrome is real, and those infected need to be removed from all union posts.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
and it begins

Nope1000
03-06-2018, 05:20 AM
If this TA passes (hope it doesn’t) would it make ATI the lowest paid unionized widebody pilots in North America?

MentalMidget
03-06-2018, 05:34 AM
If this TA passes (hope it doesn’t) would it make ATI the lowest paid unionized widebody pilots in North America?


yes, along with their flight attendants .....what a group

freighthound
03-06-2018, 05:50 AM
If this TA passes (hope it doesn’t) would it make ATI the lowest paid unionized widebody pilots in North America?

In all fairness it would make them the lowest paid widebody pilots in the schedule acmi lane segment, not currently in negotiations. In other words they would be the first group not to at least attain if not exceed the contracts of those who have recently completed new CBAs ahead of them, (i.e. Kalitta, Omni, much less the narrow body carriers like Spirit who also get compensated for 20-40% more credit hours each month on top of the hourly rate).

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 05:52 AM
If this TA passes (hope it doesn’t) would it make ATI the lowest paid unionized widebody pilots in North America?
No, ATIs annual guarantee would be higher than Atlas, Southern, ABX and Amerijet’s

Jurassic Jet
03-06-2018, 05:57 AM
No, ATIs annual guarantee would be higher than Atlas, Southern, ABX and Amerijet’s

How about Kalitta or Omni?

gumpscheck
03-06-2018, 05:58 AM
No, ATIs annual guarantee would be higher than Atlas, Southern, ABX and Amerijet’s

Could you please explain?

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 06:13 AM
Could you please explain?

The hourly pay and monthly guarantee are right here on APC. They even provide a handy calculator to determine annual guarantee.

So 12 year top captain pay for each airline currently is:
ABX $$178,704
Atlas $158,472
Amerijet $134,160
Southern $129,594

The Proposed TA would put a topped out Captain at $191,747 at DOS and $219,856 at the end of the contract.

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 06:20 AM
How about Kalitta or Omni?

The question was would ATI be the lowest paid union airline in the US. Clearly we would not be.

freighthound
03-06-2018, 06:24 AM
The hourly pay and monthly guarantee are right here on APC. They even provide a handy calculator to determine annual guarantee.

So 12 year top captain pay for each airline currently is:
ABX $$178,704
Atlas $158,472
Amerijet $134,160
Southern $129,594

The Proposed TA would put a topped out Captain at $191,747 at DOS and $219,856 at the end of the contract.
All of these carriers are in negotiations, except Amerjet who is not in the same business segment as the others, (express acmi), and therefore is not a comparative. You don't look at already amendable contracts to compare but recenty settled ones. In this segment that is Kalitta and Omni, and actually Omni does not even have the luxury of an express company providing deep pockets as a customer.

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 06:36 AM
All of these carriers are in negotiations, except Amerjet who is not in the same business segment as the others, (express acmi), and therefore is not a comparative. You don't look at already amendable contracts to compare but recenty settled ones. In this segment that is Kalitta and Omni, and actually Omni does not even have the luxury of an express company providing deep pockets as a customer.

The question was:
If this TA passes (hope it doesn’t) would it make ATI the lowest paid unionized widebody pilots in North America?

The answer is clearly no. And as long as our “sister” company seems content to work under their 2009 concessionary contract indefinitely it’s probably not gonna change.

No Land 3
03-06-2018, 06:46 AM
Food for thought, my first year FO pay at K4 grossed 130k, others have done better. Second year fo guys easily topping over 150k gross. Third year CA’s easily over 200k gross. Difference between a 767 and 747 isn’t enough to justify lower pay, you all are worth the same pay we get.

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 06:52 AM
Food for thought, my first year FO pay at K4 grossed 130k, others have done better. Second year fo guys easily topping over 150k gross. Third year CA’s easily over 200k gross. Difference between a 767 and 747 isn’t enough to justify lower pay, you all are worth the same pay we get.

I was only comparing minimum guarantee because that’s the only apples to apples comparison we can make. We have guys that make A LOT of overtime. I rarely do any extra flying and I still made an extra 10% last year.

No Land 3
03-06-2018, 06:58 AM
I was only comparing minimum guarantee because that’s the only apples to apples comparison we can make. We have guys that make A LOT of overtime. I rarely do any extra flying and I still made an extra 10% last year.
My 130k is based on maybe 10 days worth of OT for the year. I routinely fly 85 to 95 hours a month with no OT. I suppose it is the same at ATI? Or do you guys mostly do domestic hub flying?

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 07:19 AM
My 130k is based on maybe 10 days worth of OT for the year. I routinely fly 85 to 95 hours a month with no OT. I suppose it is the same at ATI? Or do you guys mostly do domestic hub flying?
The bulk of the flying is domestic hub, but we also have 757 combi flying and our military charter flying has picked up quite a bit. Some guys work extra and make overtime. I choose to enjoy my time off at home.

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 07:30 AM
Question- What was a 12 year Kalitta 747 Captain’s annual guarantee at DOS(16 months ago)?

Rubberband
03-06-2018, 07:59 AM
Question- What was a 12 year Kalitta 747 Captain’s annual guarantee at DOS(16 months ago)?

$191,746.56

Just heard, ATI's TA first year pay is $40 less and hour than Omni...:eek:

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 08:18 AM
$191,746.56


Correct,and the guy sitting in the clapped out old 757 freighter in CVG would also make $191,746.56. Point is that our TA annual guarantees match Kalitta's contract (except for first year pay) pretty much to the penny.

Nope1000
03-06-2018, 08:36 AM
But K4’s contract is already 15 months old.

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 08:41 AM
But K4’s contract is already 15 months old.

That’s true, I’m just pointing out that the pay scales are virtually identical (again, except for new hires)

Red Baron
03-06-2018, 08:42 AM
Correct,and the guy sitting in the clapped out old 757 freighter in CVG would also make $191,746.56. Point is that our TA annual guarantees match Kalitta's contract (except for first year pay) pretty much to the penny.

Look again!

FlyAstarJets
03-06-2018, 08:44 AM
Look again!

At what and where?

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 08:52 AM
Look again!

Yes, please elorate.

FlyAstarJets
03-06-2018, 09:00 AM
My 130k is based on maybe 10 days worth of OT for the year. I routinely fly 85 to 95 hours a month with no OT. I suppose it is the same at ATI? Or do you guys mostly do domestic hub flying?

All our lines of flying came in at less than guarantee (pre TA 56hrs). We had one line that broke guarantee ( a Combi Line).
The only way to get the kind of hours you’re routinely flying is to pickup a lot of time on days off.

So assuming you’re flying the 747, the short answer to your question is, our domestic or OCONUS flying is not the same as yours.

Red Baron
03-06-2018, 09:03 AM
Yes, please elorate.

Sure thing. First of all, Kalitta pay does not have a narrow body "B" scale. Most importantly, Omni has set the new standard and if this TA is voted in it will be considered industry concessionary. ATSG had a chance to get this pilot group under contract back in the Fall, but instead played games. Don't fall for the fool's gold being offered!

Nope1000
03-06-2018, 09:05 AM
Correct,and the guy sitting in the clapped out old 757 freighter in CVG would also make $191,746.56. Point is that our TA annual guarantees match Kalitta's contract (except for first year pay) pretty much to the penny.

If the TA pay scale started at DOS with K4 DOS+1 that would be true

gumpscheck
03-06-2018, 09:12 AM
The hourly pay and monthly guarantee are right here on APC. They even provide a handy calculator to determine annual guarantee.

So 12 year top captain pay for each airline currently is:
ABX $$178,704
Atlas $158,472
Amerijet $134,160
Southern $129,594

The Proposed TA would put a topped out Captain at $191,747 at DOS and $219,856 at the end of the contract.

I will only make reference to the ABX numbers. Those are nine years old and a concessionary CBA. The ATI’s proposed TA is only 13k more than ABX’s. Are you feeling proud about that when Spirit and Omni are passing you all by at least a mile?
C’mon Man!!

Red Baron
03-06-2018, 09:16 AM
I will only make reference to the ABX numbers. Those are nine years old and a concessionary CBA. The ATI’s proposed TA is only 13k more than ABX’s. Are you feeling proud about that when Spirit and Omni are passing you all by at least a mile?
C’mon Man!!

I agree. Fight the fight!

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 09:22 AM
Sure thing. First of all, Kalitta pay does not have a narrow body "B" scale. Most importantly, Omni has set the new standard and if this TA is voted in it will be considered industry concessionary. ATSG had a chance to get this pilot group under contract back in the Fall, but instead played games. Don't fall for the fool's gold being offered!

Take a look at the airline profiles on this site- less pay for smaller airplanes IS the industry standard. I’m surprised they didn’t try to reduce our 757 pay like they’ve tried in the past. Clearly Kalitta has no plans to operate any narrow bodies under the K4 certificate. I believe our 737 rates are still in effect and this should be a big improvement to them should we ever get some.

MentalMidget
03-06-2018, 09:24 AM
Looking at this TA a few items that need commentary, seems like ppl are blinded by the potential $$ signs (which are not that great) and skimming over other points that make up this TA and the quality of your life.

*Business class travel...>8hrs segment..hmm how many times will we use that one?......NO
*Hotel accommodations layovers >8 hrs ...again won't be utilized....NO
*Per Diem rates....I like to eat healthy and good, this does not come close....NO
*Retirement....NO CHANGES capped by IRS not ATI...NO
*Recorded Data Protections?....Needs greater claification
*And last but certainly not least ....NO SIGNING BONUS ...WTFFF..NOOOO

***please help me understand again why this is good so I can vote yes. although it is a fair starting point it is very weak overall and we are leaving way too much on the table. please chime in luv to hear others views

Red Baron
03-06-2018, 09:29 AM
Take a look at the airline profiles on this site- less pay for smaller airplanes IS the industry standard. I’m surprised they didn’t try to reduce our 757 pay like they’ve tried in the past. Clearly Kalitta has no plans to operate any narrow bodies under the K4 certificate. I believe our 737 rates are still in effect and this should be a big improvement to them should we ever get some.

Bottom line is Omni is the new standard. Anything less is concessionary!

Red Baron
03-06-2018, 09:32 AM
Looking at this TA a few items that need commentary, seems like ppl are blinded by the potential $$ signs (which are not that great) and skimming over other points that make up this TA and the quality of your life.

*Business class travel...>8hrs segment..hmm how many times will we use that one?......NO
*Hotel accommodations layovers >8 hrs ...again won't be utilized....NO
*Per Diem rates....I like to eat healthy and good, this does not come close....NO
*Retirement....NO CHANGES capped by IRS not ATI...NO
*Recorded Data Protections?....WTF....NO
*And last but certainly not least ....NO SIGNING BONUS ...WTFFF..NOOOO

***please help me understand again why this is good so I can vote yes. although it is a fair starting point it is very weak overall and we are leaving way too much on the table. please chime in luv to hear others views

Yep, doesn't take much thought to think NO, but hell NO!

Red Baron
03-06-2018, 09:40 AM
[QUOTE=l8fr82hub;2544224]Take a look at the airline profiles on this site- less pay for smaller airplanes IS the industry standard.


Not in the cargo/non-sched world!

Nope1000
03-06-2018, 09:41 AM
Take a look at the airline profiles on this site- less pay for smaller airplanes IS the industry standard. I’m surprised they didn’t try to reduce our 757 pay like they’ve tried in the past. Clearly Kalitta has no plans to operate any narrow bodies under the K4 certificate. I believe our 737 rates are still in effect and this should be a big improvement to them should we ever get some.

Spirit has smaller airplanes than the 757 and just TA’d more pay.

gumpscheck
03-06-2018, 09:46 AM
The question was:
If this TA passes (hope it doesn’t) would it make ATI the lowest paid unionized widebody pilots in North America?

The answer is clearly no. And as long as our “sister” company seems content to work under their 2009 concessionary contract indefinitely it’s probably not gonna change.

Your “sister” company is not content at all. We are fighting the same management you guys are capitulating to. Our fight becomes that much harder if ATI gives in to the shiny new rates and the promise of bigger airplanes.

MentalMidget
03-06-2018, 09:49 AM
Your “sister” company is not content at all. We are fighting the same management you guys are capitulating to. Our fight becomes that much harder if ATI gives in to the shiny new rates and the promise of bigger airplanes.

Absolutely a true statement. Another true statement is if it is not in writing it does NOT exist.....a pipe dream

redmanchew
03-06-2018, 12:27 PM
Have to agree with baron and the others. ATI is doing the same work and does not deserve a penny less. Seems about time for ATI and ABX to come together and see that both airlines get what they deserve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

freighthound
03-06-2018, 12:57 PM
Have to agree with baron and the others. ATI is doing the same work and does not deserve a penny less. Seems about time for ATI and ABX to come together and see that both airlines get what they deserve


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What he said!

nitefr8dog
03-06-2018, 01:00 PM
Looking at this TA a few items that need commentary, seems like ppl are blinded by the potential $$ signs (which are not that great) and skimming over other points that make up this TA and the quality of your life.

*Business class travel...>8hrs segment..hmm how many times will we use that one?......NO
*Hotel accommodations layovers >8 hrs ...again won't be utilized....NO
*Per Diem rates....I like to eat healthy and good, this does not come close....NO
*Retirement....NO CHANGES capped by IRS not ATI...NO
*Recorded Data Protections?....Needs greater claification
*And last but certainly not least ....NO SIGNING BONUS ...WTFFF..NOOOO

***please help me understand again why this is good so I can vote yes. although it is a fair starting point it is very weak overall and we are leaving way too much on the table. please chime in luv to hear others views

How about scope....Hete would love to be able to move the aircraft around
With ATI like he wishes he could do with ABX

MentalMidget
03-06-2018, 01:18 PM
How about scope....Hete would love to be able to move the aircraft around
With ATI like he wishes he could do with ABX

yes another great point, not even on the TA overview. However, there is mention of future narrow body pay at 90% scale....wait isn't that a carrot in front of my nose?
The TA still has not been released to the group

nitefr8dog
03-06-2018, 01:26 PM
No, ATIs annual guarantee would be higher than Atlas, Southern, ABX and Amerijet’s

And you think that is good? It does not take much. In todays world those are all crap. And for a new TA .....ATI's is horible!

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 01:48 PM
And you think that is good? It does not take much. In todays world those are all crap. And for a new TA .....ATI's is horible!



No, read the thread. I was correcting the facts

midnightshuttle
03-06-2018, 03:22 PM
No, read the thread. I was correcting the facts




“Legacy” rationale & acquiescence

l8fr82hub
03-06-2018, 04:25 PM
“Legacy” rationale & acquiescence
Shouldn’t you be studying for your upgrade?

Sdnumber2
03-06-2018, 04:35 PM
Shouldn’t you be studying for your upgrade?

Hopefully he is studying for his exit interview.

Industry Strnd
03-06-2018, 06:42 PM
ATSG 100 million in profit no retro or signing bonus ......Goose eggs....

Wayst
03-06-2018, 08:25 PM
At this point the only way for ATI to get more money is to give up home basing. This would allow the company to increase the hourly rate and also change the schedule around for the domestic cargo routes (ups/fedex scheduling) allowing someone to easily fly 85-95 hours a month and make a lot of over time without being gone 28 days a month. ATI will never give up homebasing even if it means a substantial increase in pay. Too many people living in small towns.

Jason605
03-06-2018, 08:53 PM
At this point the only way for ATI to get more money is to give up home basing. This would allow the company to increase the hourly rate and also change the schedule around for the domestic cargo routes (ups/fedex scheduling) allowing someone to easily fly 85-95 hours a month and make a lot of over time without being gone 28 days a month. ATI will never give up homebasing even if it means a substantial increase in pay. Too many people living in small towns.

Just skimmed over the past couple of pages and this is by far one of the dumbest things I've read. And there's a lot of dumb **** in this thread.

Really? Only way for them to get more is to give up home basing? There is plenty of money in ATSG. ATI mearly has to vote no to get the money.

Jason605
03-06-2018, 08:57 PM
ATSG 100 million in profit no retro or signing bonus ......Goose eggs....

^^ This ^^

Wayst
03-07-2018, 02:10 AM
Just skimmed over the past couple of pages and this is by far one of the dumbest things I've read. And there's a lot of dumb **** in this thread.

Really? Only way for them to get more is to give up home basing? There is plenty of money in ATSG. ATI mearly has to vote no to get the money.




Yes giving up giving up home basing would be an immediate pay increase on the contract. Do you think by voting no that the company will magically will increase the pay scale? I don’t think so.

Pilots need to stop holding on to home basing like it is a Golden ticket because its not. It prevents pilots from making money.

maxjet
03-07-2018, 05:06 AM
Yes giving up giving up home basing would be an immediate pay increase on the contract. Do you think by voting no that the company will magically will increase the pay scale? I don’t think so.

Pilots need to stop holding on to home basing like it is a Golden ticket because its not. It prevents pilots from making money.



Wow! Written by a pilot who must live in base. How about home basing and pay. 100 million in profit? Being whipsawed against ABX? Sorry I would have to vote No.

JonnyKnoxville
03-07-2018, 01:55 PM
Omni has home basing.

Industry Strnd
03-07-2018, 04:53 PM
Seems funny to capture narrow body flying several years away but not protect the current flying.

midnightshuttle
03-07-2018, 06:18 PM
Today our MEC chairman said if we didnt vote this in we would be stuck for 2yrs in mediation.

Our CNC were there too. Vote it in or we are DOOMED

Oh well

JonnyKnoxville
03-07-2018, 06:20 PM
Today our MEC chairman said if we didnt vote this in we would be stuck for 2yrs in mediation.

Our CNC were there too. Vote it in or we are DOOMED

Oh well

More likely management needs you guys to vote it in or they are doomed.

Asci
03-07-2018, 07:11 PM
Today our MEC chairman said if we didnt vote this in we would be stuck for 2yrs in mediation.

Our CNC were there too. Vote it in or we are DOOMED

Oh well

Just my humble opinion but that’s a load of bs. ATI management played hardball until a negotiator was assigned. Then in the 11th hour they made a deal. If this gets voted down they will play the same game of chicken again until the first meeting with the negotiater is scheduled again (in June) and come back to the table with an Omni contract (slightly better than k4).
The pilot group will have to vote it down again and then make their own deal before the third meeting with the negotiator is scheduled.
K4 pilots work 16 days less per year than ATI pilots and have had a contract for ~15 months already so there is no reason ATI shouldn’t have a ~12% higher yearly wage starting at DOS with 5% raises over the length of the contract. With the record profits ATSG is posting a profit sharing direct 401k contribution would go a long way as well.

Industry Strnd
03-07-2018, 07:46 PM
It's interesting that the negotiating committee knows exactly how long mediation would be. In 2 years if the company doesn't get a better deal they won't exist in today's environment, everyone will work at all the carriers that have already gave their pilots industry leading contracts. The bottom line is everyone is getting contracts better than the last one agreed to except ATI/ ALPA.

No Land 3
03-07-2018, 10:24 PM
Your MEC is using scare tactics of mediation? This is directly out of the playbook of Mesa’s corrupt and paid for union!!! Fire them all!!!!

MentalMidget
03-08-2018, 03:46 AM
The very second the MEC appears to be doing a sales job to the pilot group, arguing in favor of management, you need to clean house, fire all of them. I witnessed this with BR at Mesa. Stockholm Syndrome is real, and those infected need to be removed from all union posts.


this is a reality now at ATI, we voted in a new MEC but the negotiating committee is a left over from the old regime.

Industry Strnd
03-08-2018, 04:20 AM
Its a scare tactic from alpa national. Do you think when delta and soutwest voted down their 1st TAs thir union tried to scare them too?

Jurassic Jet
03-08-2018, 04:39 AM
A little charter airline with $336 million in REVENUE last year (not profit), is going to best ATI that’s owned by a company that had nearly $100 million in PROFIT during the last 3 MONTHS?

Higher pay.

Business class over 3.

Better 401k.

Really guys? It’s time to make ATSG step up. Don’t fall prey to the threats.

midnightshuttle
03-08-2018, 05:40 AM
Your MEC is using scare tactics of mediation? This is directly out of the playbook of Mesa’s corrupt and paid for union!!! Fire them all!!!!

ATI “IS” MESA

we call it Mesa Cargo

thesandbox
03-08-2018, 06:05 AM
on the crew bus this morning in CVG....ATI pilot to Kalitta pilot sitting across from him... "well it definitely is not as good as yours but it's good enough to keep me here" ....wow...just wow.

atpcliff
03-08-2018, 06:26 AM
Wow! Written by a pilot who must live in base. How about home basing and pay. 100 million in profit? Being whipsawed against ABX? Sorry I would have to vote No.

Kalitta has home basing, and they have a pretty decent contract...MUCH better pay than ATI's.

Nope1000
03-08-2018, 06:49 AM
on the crew bus this morning in CVG....ATI pilot to Kalitta pilot sitting across from him... "well it definitely is not as good as yours but it's good enough to keep me here" ....wow...just wow.

You should have slapped some sense into him😜

MentalMidget
03-08-2018, 07:01 AM
By Jon Hemmerdinger, FlightGlobal. "The US charter carrier Omni Air International may have set a new high-water mark for pilot pay, agreeing to a contract that will make its first-year first officers the highest-paid in the US industry, according to its pilots' union. That union, the Airline Professionals Association, Teamsters Local 1224 (APA), says the deal, if ratified, could have broad implications in the US airline industry, serving as a precursor to broader wage growth.

hopefully ATI pilots are intelligent enough to keep the standard rising.

A rising tide lifts all boats

Vote NO

motorclutch
03-08-2018, 07:19 AM
These are the same ATI pilots that decided it was “cool” to cross a picket line. What does that tell you? Paid for and owned by JV and JH. They will do as they are told.......vote yes!

Almost There
03-08-2018, 07:57 AM
Today our MEC chairman said if we didnt vote this in we would be stuck for 2yrs in mediation.

Our CNC were there too. Vote it in or we are DOOMED

Oh well

They are trying to sell you Pyrite. Fools Gold.
Just say NO!

MentalMidget
03-08-2018, 01:08 PM
this is a reality now at ATI, we voted in a new MEC but the negotiating committee is a left over from the old regime.

Kind of like Trump and the deep state he is dealing with...need to clean house ....wow never ends

2lowflaps
03-08-2018, 03:39 PM
There’s a pretty simple solution to all of this. Vote down the TA and reopen single carrier. There is strength in numbers.

flgac
03-08-2018, 07:13 PM
ATI Guys, I've been in this industry for 37 years. Two airlines represented by ALPA and the last 26 years by Teamsters. I've been through a total of six contracts and four with ATSG management. You can say what you want about the union representing ABX, however, they know how ATSG management negotiates. They know their moves and threats even before they are made. I strongly recommend the following: At this point in our careers we need unity. There has never been a better time in my 37 year career to be compensated what we are all worth. We must put our differences aside and join together as pilots who work for the same parent company. Our union leadership on both sides must align together and support each group to obtain an ACMI industry standard contract. The work rules and compensation can differ, however, the cost per hour for crews should be the same. If we join together, we'll both end up with an industry standard or leading contract. The TA for ATI is sub-standard. It's better than what you've had, however, it can be much better if you vote NO and join together in negotiations. Both contracts should be signed on the same day with the same basic cost. Remember...... ATSG is reporting record profits! Record Profits! Both airlines can do better than the current TA on the table for ATI. Again, vote NO and then work together for an industry leading contract! It's now or never!

Captjim
03-08-2018, 10:11 PM
ATI Guys, I've been in this industry for 37 years. Two airlines represented by ALPA and the last 26 years by Teamsters. I've been through a total of six contracts and four with ATSG management. You can say what you want about the union representing ABX, however, they know how ATSG management negotiates. They know their moves and threats even before they are made. I strongly recommend the following: At this point in our careers we need unity. There has never been a better time in my 37 year career to be compensated what we are all worth. We must put our differences aside and join together as pilots who work for the same parent company. Our union leadership on both sides must align together and support each group to obtain an ACMI industry standard contract. The work rules and compensation can differ, however, the cost per hour for crews should be the same. If we join together, we'll both end up with an industry standard or leading contract. The TA for ATI is sub-standard. It's better than what you've had, however, it can be much better if you vote NO and join together in negotiations. Both contracts should be signed on the same day with the same basic cost. Remember...... ATSG is reporting record profits! Record Profits! Both airlines can do better than the current TA on the table for ATI. Again, vote NO and then work together for an industry leading contract! It's now or never!

You do know that you work with a bunch of Mesa pilots right? Never seen a TA that they didn't vote yes to!

Jurassic Jet
03-09-2018, 12:08 AM
The work rules and compensation can differ, however, the cost per hour for crews should be the same.

Both contracts should be signed on the same day with the same basic cost.

This. Right. Here.

DC8DRIVER
03-09-2018, 10:00 AM
ATI Guys, I've been in this industry for 37 years. Two airlines represented by ALPA and the last 26 years by Teamsters. I've been through a total of six contracts and four with ATSG management. You can say what you want about the union representing ABX, however, they know how ATSG management negotiates. They know their moves and threats even before they are made. I strongly recommend the following: At this point in our careers we need unity. There has never been a better time in my 37 year career to be compensated what we are all worth. We must put our differences aside and join together as pilots who work for the same parent company. Our union leadership on both sides must align together and support each group to obtain an ACMI industry standard contract. The work rules and compensation can differ, however, the cost per hour for crews should be the same. If we join together, we'll both end up with an industry standard or leading contract. The TA for ATI is sub-standard. It's better than what you've had, however, it can be much better if you vote NO and join together in negotiations. Both contracts should be signed on the same day with the same basic cost. Remember...... ATSG is reporting record profits! Record Profits! Both airlines can do better than the current TA on the table for ATI. Again, vote NO and then work together for an industry leading contract! It's now or never!

^^^^^THIS ^^^^^^ is a rational statement.

MentalMidget
03-09-2018, 02:38 PM
ATI Guys, I've been in this industry for 37 years. Two airlines represented by ALPA and the last 26 years by Teamsters. I've been through a total of six contracts and four with ATSG management. You can say what you want about the union representing ABX, however, they know how ATSG management negotiates. They know their moves and threats even before they are made. I strongly recommend the following: At this point in our careers we need unity. There has never been a better time in my 37 year career to be compensated what we are all worth. We must put our differences aside and join together as pilots who work for the same parent company. Our union leadership on both sides must align together and support each group to obtain an ACMI industry standard contract. The work rules and compensation can differ, however, the cost per hour for crews should be the same. If we join together, we'll both end up with an industry standard or leading contract. The TA for ATI is sub-standard. It's better than what you've had, however, it can be much better if you vote NO and join together in negotiations. Both contracts should be signed on the same day with the same basic cost. Remember...... ATSG is reporting record profits! Record Profits! Both airlines can do better than the current TA on the table for ATI. Again, vote NO and then work together for an industry leading contract! It's now or never!

^^^^^^well said^^^^^^

Tumbl3weed
03-09-2018, 04:19 PM
ATI Guys, I've been in this industry for 37 years. Two airlines represented by ALPA and the last 26 years by Teamsters. I've been through a total of six contracts and four with ATSG management. You can say what you want about the union representing ABX, however, they know how ATSG management negotiates. They know their moves and threats even before they are made. I strongly recommend the following: At this point in our careers we need unity. There has never been a better time in my 37 year career to be compensated what we are all worth. We must put our differences aside and join together as pilots who work for the same parent company. Our union leadership on both sides must align together and support each group to obtain an ACMI industry standard contract. The work rules and compensation can differ, however, the cost per hour for crews should be the same. If we join together, we'll both end up with an industry standard or leading contract. The TA for ATI is sub-standard. It's better than what you've had, however, it can be much better if you vote NO and join together in negotiations. Both contracts should be signed on the same day with the same basic cost. Remember...... ATSG is reporting record profits! Record Profits! Both airlines can do better than the current TA on the table for ATI. Again, vote NO and then work together for an industry leading contract! It's now or never!
Well said, Our unions and ATSG management can’t ignore the lastest earnings report or Omni’s TA...

OverGMcGee
03-10-2018, 10:10 AM
Like it or not this contract is about to pass. Its understood that this will cut others off at the knee, nonetheless it will pass

The group is pretty well split at about 55:45 and not moving. Demographics are all over as well some legacy guys are violently against while some new capts are all for it.

Ive heard there have been very heated debates going on online and on the line. Fact is we are just so far behind catching up isn’t feasible numbers wise. We have to accept it that is also Alpas position judging by the last road show I attended

Our CNC tried to go back and ask for an Omni equivalent but couldn’t pull it off. Omni is just more profitable according to out CNC

Jurassic Jet
03-10-2018, 10:17 AM
Our CNC tried to go back and ask for an Omni equivalent but couldn’t pull it off. Omni is just more profitable according to out CNC

The koolaid is strong if you guys believe that crap!

mukalel
03-10-2018, 11:27 AM
The koolaid is strong if you guys believe that crap!

Amazing to know that atsg is less profitable than Omni that too after the last earnings call ..

motorclutch
03-10-2018, 11:32 AM
Believe what you want......the ABX strike was illegal too!

BlueSkies88
03-10-2018, 12:00 PM
This was inevitable, ATI pilots have AMAZON dreams my sources tell me these people are willing to sell their mother’s in order to called themselves “PRIME PILOTS”

redmanchew
03-10-2018, 12:08 PM
Well if ATI votes this in and cuts everyone off at the knees then I hope they want to stay there for life because it will taint your resume. ATI is getting a reputation industry wide and they can either turn that around by standing up to this bowl of crap they call a contract or bury themselves now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

motorclutch
03-10-2018, 12:17 PM
Either way....they will end up funding my retirement. Wait....they don’t have a retirement, they have home basing instead. You get what you are willing to bargain.

MentalMidget
03-10-2018, 01:11 PM
Like it or not this contract is about to pass. Its understood that this will cut others off at the knee, nonetheless it will pass

The group is pretty well split at about 55:45 and not moving. Demographics are all over as well some legacy guys are violently against while some new capts are all for it.

Ive heard there have been very heated debates going on online and on the line. Fact is we are just so far behind catching up isn’t feasible numbers wise. We have to accept it that is also Alpas position judging by the last road show I attended

Our CNC tried to go back and ask for an Omni equivalent but couldn’t pull it off. Omni is just more profitable according to out CNC


Most if not all the Jr pilots <3 yrs service are: a)coming from a commuter, so they think they are hitting the lottery (clueless) or b) corporate old farts same as a) so both of these groups are inexperienced working with large 121 aircraft and are selling themselves along with the rest buying into the propaganda, my guess anyone 60 or over is also a yes greed factor.

Jurassic Jet
03-10-2018, 01:45 PM
Our CNC tried to go back and ask for an Omni equivalent but couldn’t pull it off.

Ummmm, isn't that what a NO vote is for??? :confused:




Omni is just more profitable according to out CNC

Perhaps do your own research??? That is such a HUGE lie, it's not even funny.

MentalMidget
03-10-2018, 03:31 PM
Our CNC tried to go back and ask for an Omni equivalent but couldn’t pull it off. Omni is just more profitable according to out CNC


and you believe this? that is exactly what they are hoping and why a no vote should be cast by all. This is called the negotiation process.

Don't be what your German partner would call you: a Dummkopf

Industry Strnd
03-10-2018, 03:42 PM
Omni makes more lol. Really some rookies at the helm in alpa!

2lowflaps
03-10-2018, 04:53 PM
Like it or not this contract is about to pass. Its understood that this will cut others off at the knee, nonetheless it will pass

The group is pretty well split at about 55:45 and not moving. Demographics are all over as well some legacy guys are violently against while some new capts are all for it.

Ive heard there have been very heated debates going on online and on the line. Fact is we are just so far behind catching up isn’t feasible numbers wise. We have to accept it that is also Alpas position judging by the last road show I attended

Our CNC tried to go back and ask for an Omni equivalent but couldn’t pull it off. Omni is just more profitable according to out CNC


Sounds like fake news to me.

freighthound
03-10-2018, 04:57 PM
Omni makes more lol. Really some rookies at the helm in alpa!

Not rookies...this is what alpa is all about. Take care of the big boys and make sure the little guys don't mzke waves. They have for years sold everyone but the majors down the river.

flgac
03-10-2018, 06:40 PM
Sounds like fake news to me.
Somebody needs to talk with the "young pups" and give them some advice. If this contract passes it will not be a 4 year contract. It will be at least 6 years. One reason..... your ALPA NC didn't even get a penny of retro pay or signing bonus. Why would any management team want to negotiate a contract when every day they delay (like this contract) it's more $$$ in their pockets. Also, if ALPA went back to ATI management and tried to get an Omni industry standard contract and their answer was (couldn't pull it off)....... I'd be sending a clear message to the NC team with a NO vote. There are so many reasons every pilot should vote NO I can't believe it's this close! Stand up for what's right...... Not just for yourselves but for the entire ACMI industry! That's exactly what the ABX guys did with their 100% legal strike! That was to send a clear message... not just for ABX but for all the ACMI groups. Grow a set and stand up for what is right! Vote NO and go back and get what you're worth!

OverGMcGee
03-10-2018, 06:40 PM
Im stating what our MEC chairman and CNC told us. I think that was our ALPA attorney at the roadshow as well.

They are adamant this is all we can get.

Like i said

55:45 maybe 60:40

Cottonmouth
03-10-2018, 06:56 PM
Hopefully the ATI Pilots have some dignity, best time ever for leverage in the industry! ATI management is trying to shove a POS agreement to their pilots, wow, hopefully it will be voted down!

2lowflaps
03-10-2018, 07:01 PM
Im stating what our MEC chairman and CNC told us. I think that was our ALPA attorney at the roadshow as well.

They are adamant this is all we can get.

Like i said

55:45 maybe 60:40

Remember ALPA works for you. You don’t work for them. Stand up for what you deserve.

l8fr82hub
03-10-2018, 07:03 PM
Im stating what our MEC chairman and CNC told us. I think that was our ALPA attorney at the roadshow as well.

They are adamant this is all we can get.

Like i said

55:45 maybe 60:40

Why do you waste your time talking to these ABX jack0ffs? Their idea of “industry standard” is to fly all the overtime they can get when their junior pilots are furloughed and then let them drop off the seniority list! They don’t have your best interests in mind!

Littlebird
03-10-2018, 07:28 PM
Not one of these clowns cares about you or your family. Do what's best for you and your family. ABX pilots ate their own. Didn't care about em. Think they care about your best interest. All they wanted was a staple job to protect themselves. ATI is going places. Lot of jealousy on this thread. Screw em!!

freighthound
03-10-2018, 08:31 PM
Not one of these clowns cares about you or your family. Do what's best for you and your family. ABX pilots ate their own. Didn't care about em. Think they care about your best interest. All they wanted was a staple job to protect themselves. ATI is going places. Lot of jealousy on this thread. Screw em!!

What a great trade unionist and quality person. So glad we have individuals like this in our profession trying so hard to make the world a better place. Your fellow company pilots must be so proud. Karma can be a fickle thing especially for those who spread bad karma toward their fellow man....and yes we are all fellow pilots, intertwined in so many ways.

Industry Strnd
03-10-2018, 08:37 PM
I'm going to laugh my ass off when ABX takes all the wide body flying and leaves the narrow body for ati with a 10% pay cut!

l8fr82hub
03-10-2018, 09:03 PM
I'm going to laugh my ass off when ABX takes all the wide body flying and leaves the narrow body for ati with a 10% pay cut!
Do you mean like how ABX is getting all the wide-body Amazon flying now?

No Land 3
03-10-2018, 09:39 PM
Im stating what our MEC chairman and CNC told us. I think that was our ALPA attorney at the roadshow as well.

They are adamant this is all we can get.

Like i said

55:45 maybe 60:40

You know, the pilot group requires “grit”. That’s exactly the same garbage they told us at Mesa. I went to the roadshow, I told them what I thought, and their reaction was such that I knew they weren’t working for the pilot group.
“We looked at the numbers, they don’t have the extra money, this .02 cent raise is all they can afford”. I had to leave Mesa, was surrounded by gutless Stockholm Syndrome suffering pilots that spent the majority of their careers beaten down.
In a couple of years, will be interesting to see if our switch to ALPA will play out exactly the same way. At least I am with a pilot group that has grit, and will stand up against the bull crap.

Industry Strnd
03-10-2018, 09:42 PM
Do you mean like how ABX is getting all the wide-body Amazon flying now?

What kind of union doesn't protect their own flying? And then get a narrow body letter that expires before the amenable date? ....alpa.....all the co has to do is start to give ati aircraft then transfer them away until you fold on the next industry worst agreement!

l8fr82hub
03-10-2018, 10:12 PM
What kind of union doesn't protect their own flying?
Apparently the Teamsters. Those Quantas -300s are pretty nice BTW....

AQPABC
03-11-2018, 03:22 AM
Honestly I’m in shock that ATI guys would even consider this. Stockholm Syndrome at its finest.

Your career may have never panned out the way you dreamed and you ended up at the only place that would take you, but have some self respect for your self and this industry.

MentalMidget
03-11-2018, 04:30 AM
Why do you waste your time talking to these ABX jack0ffs? Their idea of “industry standard” is to fly all the overtime they can get when their junior pilots are furloughed and then let them drop off the seniority list! They don’t have your best interests in mind!

I'm simply DUMBFOUNDED by all the pro contract remarks and the above remark, truly a mental midget mentality

MentalMidget
03-11-2018, 04:48 AM
55:45 maybe 60:40

laughable

polls have been proven to be fake news and useless didn't you learn anything with the Trump election and all the fake news like cnn- clinton news network

hackerbyday
03-11-2018, 06:17 AM
Personally I say go ahead and vote this TA in then you can afford a few more Amazon bag tags. You say your the chosen airline for Amazon, look again. Atlas will have 20 aircraft flying for them and ATSGs contract with Amazon is only for 20 aircraft at this time. That contract is with ATSG not ATI, and as we’ve seen JH took some of that flying away from ABX and can just as easily swing back the other way if he wants it to. I don’t see in your TA any guarantees from Amazon giving you any additional flying. They could give the next batch to Kalitta or NAC if they want to. And that would leave you where? That’s right with a suck a** contract. Enjoy it.

gumpscheck
03-11-2018, 06:43 AM
Do you mean like how ABX is getting all the wide-body Amazon flying now?

Don’t flatter yourself. The decision to put all the newly acquired -300 in the ATI certificate was made internally within ATSG. It has nothing to do with AMZ, the strike, or your willingness to take whatever JH asks of your pilot group. It has more to do with the ABX pilot’s CBA scope and how restrictive it is once a tail number gets to the ABX certificate.

gumpscheck
03-11-2018, 07:20 AM
That contract is with ATSG not ATI, and as we’ve seen JH took some of that flying away from ABX and can just as easily swing back the other way if he wants it to.

Good point Hack. In fact the ABX guys have a letter from ATSG promising all the -300s flown by ATSG for DHL to ABX (which JH refused to honor). So be careful believing anything that comes from JH or JV. Those letters or promises are not worth the ink they are written on.
If I was ATI I would be so worried of approving this TA. Because it will make ATI more expensive than ABX and all ABX has to do is delay our contract negotiations and freeze our cost. This will guarantee us all those shiny pretty AMZ planes and those fancy AMZ name tags. Then we can go to the bank and buy a car and a house with those shiny pretty AMZ planes and name tags.

Midway
03-11-2018, 07:38 AM
I can remember when it was not ok in the airline industry to cross strike picket lines, as a matter of fact, it was a career killer.

Now “I8fr82hub” even has the hubris to gloat about crossing strike picket lines to endear his group to ATSG management and gain additional aircraft and flying.

Let us not forget the conference call quote from ATSG CEO:

"ATI, whose pilots are represented by ALPA, and did not support the strike, will crew all of the remaining aircraft we deploy for Amazon."

Very sad actually; I hope the airline industry as a whole can get back to marginalizing pilot groups willing to cross strike picket lines in hopes of advancing their careers.

gumpscheck
03-11-2018, 07:40 AM
I can remember when it was not ok in the airline industry to cross strike picket lines, as a matter of fact, it was a career killer.

Now “I8fr82hub” even has the hubris to gloat about crossing strike picket lines to endear his group to ATSG management and gain additional aircraft and flying.

Let us not forget the conference call quote from ATSG CEO:

"ATI, whose pilots are represented by ALPA, and did not support the strike, will crew all of the remaining aircraft we deploy for Amazon."

Very sad actually; I hope the airline industry as a whole can get back to marginalizing pilot groups willing to cross strike picket lines in hopes of advancing their careers.

Well said my friend!

motorclutch
03-11-2018, 08:10 AM
Scabs be Scabs!

MentalMidget
03-11-2018, 08:21 AM
one thing for sure, JH is sitting back thinking what a bunch of morons these two pilot groups, how stupid they are. they have learned nothing. I can play one off the other indefinitely as long as I keep the division between them.

and sadly I agree. a lot of very small thinkers who can't see past their own noses. a no vote would clearly start to change this but.......

Tumbl3weed
03-11-2018, 09:55 AM
Like it or not this contract is about to pass. Its understood that this will cut others off at the knee, nonetheless it will pass

The group is pretty well split at about 55:45 and not moving. Demographics are all over as well some legacy guys are violently against while some new capts are all for it.

Ive heard there have been very heated debates going on online and on the line. Fact is we are just so far behind catching up isn’t feasible numbers wise. We have to accept it that is also Alpas position judging by the last road show I attended

Our CNC tried to go back and ask for an Omni equivalent but couldn’t pull it off. Omni is just more profitable according to out CNC

If it’s understood that this will cut others off at the knee, then maybe it should be understood that there’s something wrong with it
Seems to me the new captains and soon to be captains have the most to gain by voting no...you can never make up tomorrow what you give away today. RLA works like a charm(for the company) when the union lets the get away without retro.
I have a hard time believing OMNI can afford more than ATSG

nitefr8dog
03-11-2018, 10:32 AM
Good point Hack. In fact the ABX guys have a letter from ATSG promising all the -300s flown by ATSG for DHL to ABX (which JH refused to honor). So be careful believing anything that comes from JH or JV. Those letters or promises are not worth the ink they are written on.
If I was ATI I would be so worried of approving this TA. Because it will make ATI more expensive than ABX and all ABX has to do is delay our contract negotiations and freeze our cost. This will guarantee us all those shiny pretty AMZ planes and those fancy AMZ name tags. Then we can go to the bank and buy a car and a house with those shiny pretty AMZ planes and name tags.

Actually the letter reads...767 aircraft for DHL domestic. That has been upheld except for 1 aircraft allowed when a 757 would be in maintenance.

gumpscheck
03-11-2018, 10:54 AM
Actually the letter reads...767 aircraft for DHL domestic. That has been upheld except for 1 aircraft allowed when a 757 would be in maintenance.

Sorry, I wrote the wrong information. It wasn’t just the -300s. It was all the 767s. JH argument was that it only included the domestic 767s, which is not correct. You seem to take his side. I wonder who you are.

OverGMcGee
03-12-2018, 06:04 AM
Sorry for touching off arguments. I am/was stating the position of Alpa/MEC/CNC

The TA was engineered to pass with huge bumps in FO pay and 80% increases for junior captains. With all the hiring those are the majorities

I find the yes votes being guys with little time left or those planning on moving on. Crewmembers with over 10yrs to go and plan on staying are generally no.

Threatening that this could hurt our reputation? We’re are the bottom now. This contract does in fact pass Kalitta in dos2

Jurassic Jet
03-12-2018, 11:38 AM
This contract does in fact pass Kalitta in dos2

That’s nice. Too bad Kalitta is not the benchmark any longer. :rolleyes:

You’re behind the power curve without even leaving the gate if this passes. But hey, JV and JH promised you’ll be the chosen ‘Prime Pilots’ right? All the Airbuses and cool bag tags right?

To let this go and to believe ALPO can’t get any more, is selling your souls to the devil and screwing yourselves and the rest of the ACMI industry.

Captjim
03-13-2018, 01:16 AM
Threatening that this could hurt our reputation? We’re are the bottom now. This contract does in fact pass Kalitta in dos2

No it does not, look at the numbers again, it doesn't even catch Kalitta's numbers. More importantly, does the "book" surpass Kalitta, doubtful. Anything less than Kalitta+% is shameful for an ATSG company.

tiredofjrm
03-13-2018, 12:20 PM
Did I miss the numbers post? I haven't seen any confirmed numbers yet.

2lowflaps
03-13-2018, 02:51 PM
Nice letter JV sent out to the crews trying to scare everyone. Typical management crap. They are playing ATI crews like a cheap fiddle with the way the TA is structured. Pandering to the JR crews that aren’t even going to stay at ATI. Just throwing a few bucks at them to get a yes vote and screwing the rest of the crews that actually care about their careers at ATI. It will be down right embarrassing it this thing passes.

gumpscheck
03-13-2018, 03:19 PM
Nice letter JV sent out to the crews trying to scare everyone. Typical management crap. They are playing ATI crews like a cheap fiddle with the way the TA is structured. Pandering to the JR crews that aren’t even going to stay at ATI. Just throwing a few bucks at them to get a yes vote and screwing the rest of the crews that actually care about their careers at ATI. It will be down right embarrassing it this thing passes.

Can you share the letter with the rest of us?
Thanks.

Jurassic Jet
03-13-2018, 03:27 PM
They are playing ATI crews like a cheap fiddle

^^^^THIS RIGHT HERE^^^^^

I can here JH salivating from here.

FlyLate
03-13-2018, 03:48 PM
Nice letter JV sent out to the crews trying to scare everyone. Typical management crap. They are playing ATI crews like a cheap fiddle with the way the TA is structured. Pandering to the JR crews that aren’t even going to stay at ATI. Just throwing a few bucks at them to get a yes vote and screwing the rest of the crews that actually care about their careers at ATI. It will be down right embarrassing it this thing passes.Yup. We're supposed to believe that if it doesn't pass we'll spend 40 years in the wilderness, even though management surprised the NC with how quickly they reached a TA. Weren't we supposed to be in mediation for another 2 years? What happened to that? Management looks awfully eager, and they're using the full court press to try to sell it.

motorclutch
03-13-2018, 04:15 PM
As anxious as JV and meth-mouth are to sell this bill of goods.....there is money still on the table.
As a side note : after Monday March 19 ATI might be the last man standing. Stay tuned.

Riverside
03-13-2018, 04:52 PM
Did I miss the numbers post? I haven't seen any confirmed numbers yet.

Did you look back at the other posts?

mukalel
03-13-2018, 05:48 PM
As anxious as JV and meth-mouth are to sell this bill of goods.....there is money still on the table.
As a side note : after Monday March 19 ATI might be the last man standing. Stay tuned.

You mean as in a sell off??

hackerbyday
03-14-2018, 04:29 AM
As anxious as JV and meth-mouth are to sell this bill of goods.....there is money still on the table.
As a side note : after Monday March 19 ATI might be the last man standing. Stay tuned.

Dang Motor last time you gave us Mar 3 and nothing happened. What’s the next date after the 19th?

crazycoconut
03-14-2018, 07:47 AM
when is the vote?

Asci
03-14-2018, 08:12 AM
when is the vote?

Voting is underway. Ends 21 March

24601
03-14-2018, 08:53 AM
what are they pay rates?

boiler
03-14-2018, 09:24 AM
what are they pay rates?



They are in the original post of this thread, Jean Valjean.


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Industry Strnd
03-14-2018, 12:34 PM
what are they pay rates?

Less than everyone else who recently got a new contract, including 2 at the time... teamster acmi carriers!

Industry Strnd
03-14-2018, 12:38 PM
Pay less than everyone else
Retirement less than everyone else
No retro
Scope on planes that don't go into service for 2-3 years and the scope expires.
A promise to open the next negotiations early? Why not just add an extra year of pay? I know why cause they talked them into staying a bottom feeder and they will drag it out again!

ALPA and CO sales job. Man what a deal

Industry Strnd
03-14-2018, 12:42 PM
And vacation on your already...days off...
Do you know if you have buyers remorse you can change your vote if you already voted!

MentalMidget
03-14-2018, 12:52 PM
And vacation on your already...days off...
Do you know if you have buyers remorse you can change your vote if you already voted!

yes, as many times you want

MentalMidget
03-14-2018, 02:33 PM
All the ATI pilots should consider boycotting ATSG mgt road shows. Go for a walk instead.

mpflyboy1
03-14-2018, 04:50 PM
And vacation on your already...days off...
Do you know if you have buyers remorse you can change your vote if you already voted!

I was at ATI for a little while and was shocked when I first learned about their vacation policy. I asked one of the union reps at the time about it and what happens if I'm too junior and get vacation on my off days. He just said, "It sucks to be junior."

About a year ago I asked someone I know on the negotiating committee if they were going to get this changed on the new contract. He said he knows it needs to be changed eventually, maybe in future contract, but it really hasn't been a big issue.

Industry Strnd
03-14-2018, 07:56 PM
I was at ATI for a little while and was shocked when I first learned about their vacation policy. I asked one of the union reps at the time about it and what happens if I'm too junior and get vacation on my off days. He just said, "It sucks to be junior."

About a year ago I asked someone I know on the negotiating committee if they were going to get this changed on the new contract. He said he knows it needs to be changed eventually, maybe in future contract, but it really hasn't been a big issue.

And scope that expires isn't a big deal either ......until it expires about the time you need it!

Asci
03-15-2018, 03:25 AM
And scope that expires isn't a big deal either ......until it expires about the time you need it!

I don’t see how the scope “expires” when they need it. Status quo will continue after the contract. Yes they will have to negotiate to keep that scope in the next contract but that will be 6-7 years from DOS. Those aircraft will be on property by then.

Industry Strnd
03-15-2018, 04:55 AM
Read it. It says it's not part of status quo it must be renewed before the amendable date or its not valid. It was obviously put there so after the amendable date they can use transfer of A/C as a threat. Go read it and see for yourself.

Asci
03-15-2018, 05:28 AM
Read it. It says it's not part of status quo it must be renewed before the amendable date or its not valid. It was obviously put there so after the amendable date they can use transfer of A/C as a threat. Go read it and see for yourself.

I’m having trouble finding where it says it’s not part of status quo. Maybe you could help me out and tell me where it says that.

FlyLate
03-15-2018, 05:49 AM
Correct,and the guy sitting in the clapped out old 757 freighter in CVG would also make $191,746.56. Point is that our TA annual guarantees match Kalitta's contract (except for first year pay) pretty much to the penny.There won't be any more "clapped out old 757 freighters".

FlyLate
03-15-2018, 05:51 AM
Head's up- the "narrow gauge" pay scale will be applied to combi flights when the 757 is replaced. That's apparently happening. Who's going to want to operate those flights then? The most junior pilots are going to be "stuck" with them? Is that a recipe for success? Just one more problem with this TA...

24601
03-15-2018, 06:26 AM
They are too blurry to read, how did any one see what they were

tiredofjrm
03-15-2018, 10:17 AM
The 6% match on the 401K should by itself be enough to make you vote NO.

Add in the vacation on days off, no signing bonus. Not to mention below (new TA's) average pay.

I don't work for ATI, but i would vote no. Demand enough so you can actually retire one day.

Remember a 3 year contract means at least 5.

redmanchew
03-15-2018, 11:00 AM
Wow 6% match!? That's brutal


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Jurassic Jet
03-15-2018, 11:24 AM
Remember a 3 year contract means at least 5.

More like 7-10 with ATSG.

Nope1000
03-15-2018, 11:50 AM
No retro or signing bonus gives ATSG zero incentive to negotiate in good faith. The 12 year 2% cola is gone too. I shake my head. Y’all could wait 8 years for another contract if this TA passes. Awful

FlyAstarJets
03-15-2018, 01:46 PM
Head's up- the "narrow gauge" pay scale will be applied to combi flights when the 757 is replaced.
There are no plans, STC engineering work, hints or magic eight ball answers that indicate there will be a A321 Combi. Especially since AMC signed off on and wants the 757Combi.
If you have proof to support your claim, I’d like to see it.

FlyLate
03-15-2018, 06:46 PM
There are no plans, STC engineering work, hints or magic eight ball answers that indicate there will be a A321 Combi. Especially since AMC signed off on and wants the 757Combi.
If you have proof to support your claim, I’d like to see it.I've heard this rumor multiple times from multiple reliable sources. The 757 combis will be replaced with either A321 or B737. It's happening. The majority of new growth will be "narrow gauge" and sadly that will include replacing the combi 757s.

hackerbyday
03-15-2018, 06:56 PM
Rumor has it that ABX will be getting a large group of A321’s. Wonder how that will work with ATI’s scope. Guess ABX just wont be able to fly them in the DHL system. Kinda like ATI not being able to fly 767’s in the DHL system. Or maybe Joe will just wait out the couple years and the scope language is gone.

BlueSkies88
03-16-2018, 10:17 AM
“PPM” PILOT-PAY-MATTERS
I know it’s worthless talking to this guy’s, but maybe it will bring some sense to a few of them. Remember you are not Amazon pilots unless you’re wearing an amazon employee badge.

OverGMcGee
03-17-2018, 05:34 AM
The TA showed promise of passing.

Our management leader JV put out threatening letter stating that we should vote it in and the pilot group bailed.

Presently the overall consensus is failure and out union is in full damage repair mode.

redmanchew
03-17-2018, 06:22 AM
JV sent a letter to the pilot group that was nothing short of a direct threat to them if they don't pass it. Even stating that the mediator has limited availability if the TA does not pass and that he will drag out negotiations. I would love to see these guys throw this back in his face with an overwhelming NO vote. Show them you don't respond well to direct threats.


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gumpscheck
03-17-2018, 11:05 AM
JV sent a letter to the pilot group that was nothing short of a direct threat to them if they don't pass it. Even stating that the mediator has limited availability if the TA does not pass and that he will drag out negotiations. I would love to see these guys throw this back in his face with an overwhelming NO vote. Show them you don't respond well to direct threats.

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It never fails. I have always said that JH and his management team are the best union organizers in the world. They have a unique ability to bring a divided pilot group together.

Theses people are so predictable.

BlueSkies88
03-17-2018, 02:55 PM
Mppga
“make-pilot-pay-great-again”

woog315
03-17-2018, 02:55 PM
Can someone post the letter for those of us watching from the peanut gallery?

boiler
03-17-2018, 03:47 PM
Lol what a joke!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/c2300dc7f2607f59daf918f58dc91b09.jpg


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woog315
03-17-2018, 04:25 PM
Lol what a joke!


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I don't even know what to say... They're trying to sell you guys up the river. Good luck with whatever the ATI group decides to do- you've obviously got no one looking out for you.

goinaround
03-17-2018, 05:11 PM
The world is watching. Do not let them do this.

Kougarok
03-17-2018, 05:52 PM
Wow........

wjcandee
03-17-2018, 06:31 PM
As somebody with no dog in the hunt, I was interested to read the stupid, counterproductive letter.

I think if they left out a few sentences/concepts and just highlighted what they see as the significant benefits and important features of the contract, it would have been unnecessary and kinda-dumb but not horribly-counterproductive. Something like, "Here's what we see as important features of the TA: ... Thanks for listening to our perspective, and have a great day."

But apparently its authors had no sensitivity to the obvious fact that the letter was going to be more-carefully-scrutinized by its recipients than it apparently was by its authors. (It is replete with typos.)

Normally, one would assume that a consultant or attorney or such would have written this, and the bullet points smack of that, but I actually read it as the authors thinking that if only they could make their case directly, the employees would understand what a big deal this TA was for them to do.

Which is why employers that think that way should never try to do something like this: the people opposed to the contract are going to view it through the most-negative-possible prism and then blab loudly about the letter's worst features, thus totally-defeating the purpose of sending it in the first place.

Hey, ATI, your pilots are educated people whose profession regularly requires them to do rational and computational analysis, so they can be expected to pick the TA apart, identify its beneficial features, and run its numbers all by themselves. They don't need your help.

They also don't need to be told by you that ratification involves a calculation of whether the dollars today are more beneficial in the long term than a possible moderate improvement in a contract to be ratified a year or two down the line, if indeed it takes that long. They don't need to be told this because it's always a feature in every contract negotiation.

And they sure as hell don't need to be told the mediator's schedule. It may absolutely be the case that the guy's busy and that rejecting the contract means kicking the can down the road a year. But for you to be saying it is dumb dumb dumb, because it makes you look sweaty and can be interpreted, as it has been, as a threat.

It sounds like this TA was headed for ratification, and in that situation the best thing the company can do is sit back, let the negotiating committee explain the deal to its membership, and wait for it to be approved.

The TA may still be ratified, but sending out a letter like this, even if it was done in a lily-pure effort to make sure that all features the company's offer were fully-appreciated by the membership, is -- and frankly always will be -- completely-counterproductive.

If the lawyers and advisors signed off on this, they deserve a spanking.

I guess the best thing that can be said about this is that it's quite clear that out there in Bumpkinville, they haven't been hiring a lot of social psychologists and political-campaign-veterans to try to manipulate the membership into a Yes vote. Because those guys would be embarrassed even to have to read something like this.

midnightshuttle
03-17-2018, 07:30 PM
Lol what a joke!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/c2300dc7f2607f59daf918f58dc91b09.jpg


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ATI WILL VOTE THIS IN!!!!

- overwhelmingly -

That letter broke the spine of what little oppisition it had. Legacy captains are already on their back with legs in the air.

Jurassic Jet
03-18-2018, 12:47 AM
Wow. How truly pathetic.

If the company is pushing this hard, you KNOW there is a ton left on the table.

DC8DRIVER
03-18-2018, 06:31 AM
ATI WILL VOTE THIS IN!!!!

- overwhelmingly -

That letter broke the spine of what little oppisition it had. Legacy captains are already on their back with legs in the air.

Disagree.

ATI pilots are much smarter and stronger than that!

MentalMidget
03-18-2018, 08:00 AM
Disagree.

ATI pilots are much smarter and stronger than that!

I'm not convinced reading a lot of the 'yes' reasoning on the pvt forum, We'll see

Dealing with yahoo mentality

Jurassic Jet
03-18-2018, 08:11 AM
All they see is an hourly rate and home basing.

OverGMcGee
03-18-2018, 08:55 AM
ATI is not a 1st Tier airline. We cant demand FedEx nor UPS or pay the world just doesn’t function that way. Our MEC and CNC advice is to vote yes. They are currently doing damage control after the above email. Our management may be intellectually challenged but I trust our CNC.

No one makes people stay here. Everyone is free to leave upon ones own will to seek higher pay.

motorclutch
03-18-2018, 08:55 AM
Wanna bet?

redmanchew
03-18-2018, 09:08 AM
So I guess Omni has always been a 1st tier airline? Hmmm....spoken like a true beta


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Jurassic Jet
03-18-2018, 09:34 AM
Our MEC and CNC advice is to vote yes. Our management may be intellectually challenged but I trust our CNC.

They also just said jump off a bridge. You following?

CargoPirate
03-18-2018, 09:55 AM
Disagree.

ATI pilots are much smarter and stronger than that!

Since when?

Almost There
03-18-2018, 12:43 PM
"Our MEC and CNC advice is to vote yes".

That is BAD advice.
Most likely they are tired and worn down by the negotiations.

Help your CNC out. Vote NO.

zerozero
03-18-2018, 01:48 PM
Wow. How truly pathetic.

If the company is pushing this hard, you KNOW there is a ton left on the table.

Agreed.

It shows the company itself lacks any confidence in their offer. They fear it's not good enough.

Freud would say, all thieves want to be caught.

dera
03-18-2018, 04:08 PM
"Please keep in the narrowbody aircraft would be a complement to our existing fleet"

Is that even English?

johnny150
03-18-2018, 04:55 PM
Lol what a joke!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180317/c2300dc7f2607f59daf918f58dc91b09.jpg


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Haha


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point432
03-18-2018, 06:05 PM
"Please keep in the narrowbody aircraft would be a complement to our existing fleet"

Is that even English?

Must have been using Google Translate. lol

dera
03-18-2018, 06:51 PM
Must have been using Google Translate. lol

All your (home)base are belong to us.

point432
03-18-2018, 07:12 PM
All your (home)base are belong to us.



Bahahaha exactly


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Jason605
03-19-2018, 08:23 AM
I'm no spelling police kinda guy, but really? This is the leader of ATI management? :D. The leader of an airline writes a letter like that and your supposed to take him seriously?

That letter, aside from the middle school grammar, is a giant flashing light to the world, that there is a lot being left on the table. I know people don't like to hear the truth sometimes, but ATI, you guys are being played by your management and your union.

gumpscheck
03-19-2018, 09:19 AM
ATI is not a 1st Tier airline. We cant demand FedEx nor UPS or pay the world just doesn’t function that way. Our MEC and CNC advice is to vote yes. They are currently doing damage control after the above email. Our management may be intellectually challenged but I trust our CNC.

However, you are flying a “1st Tier Airplane.” You should be paid accordingly. Take pride in your profession and your worth.

No Land 3
03-19-2018, 09:51 AM
May the ATI pilot group decide what is best for them and their families.

gumpscheck
03-19-2018, 10:10 AM
May the ATI pilot group decide what is best for them and their families.

The problem is that your decisions will not just affect your group, the ATI pilot group. You all have to realize that JH and his puppets are using ATI as a tool to whipsaw the other pilot group within ATSG. Plus your decision also affects the rest of the ACMI pilots. If we all stick together for the collective improvement of the profession, we all win. That’s the whole idea, right? To race to the top instead of racing to the bottom.

Jurassic Jet
03-19-2018, 10:40 AM
That’s the whole idea, right? To race to the top instead of racing to the bottom.


Oooooooh but shiny Airbus and PrimeAir bag tags! :eek:

Where do we sign?

baldwin
03-19-2018, 10:42 AM
The problem is that your decisions will not just affect your group, the ATI pilot group. You all have to realize that JH and his puppets are using ATI as a tool to whipsaw the other pilot group within ATSG. Plus your decision also affects the rest of the ACMI pilots. If we all stick together for the collective improvement of the profession, we all win. That’s the whole idea, right? To race to the top instead of racing to the bottom.

No kidding, right?

How many months was it between V1's first bs letter and this newer offer... 3?4?
And look how much more $$$ they coughed up- V1 swore up and down that the first set of rates was "totally absolutely all the company could afford" ... There is more money to be brought to this table GUARANTEED.

Larry in TN
03-19-2018, 10:44 AM
I see that the BUG (monthly guarantee) is increasing from 56 to 60 hours. That has the effect of lowering the hourly rate (for the same annual total) which means that you aren't getting as big of a raise as you thought on all of the extra items that are paid a set number of hours.

BlueSkies88
03-19-2018, 04:17 PM
Do not become “DEPLORABLE” and accept “CRUMBS” from ATSG.

#pilotpaymatters
#makepilotpaygreatagain

Riverside
03-19-2018, 05:56 PM
I think No Land is a K4 ALPA sympathizer. His or Her posts are all pro ALPA. So as long as it’s ALPA approved, this douche is on board.

ATI could vote in $60 an hour 76 capt rates and the No Land cheerleader would be lighting fireworks for the APLO carrier

And to top it off, No Land was a F$&!ing Mesa pilot. Need I say more about his judgement?

Tell us about your credentials.

Jason605
03-19-2018, 06:08 PM
Tell us about your credentials.

What do you wanna know?

freighthound
03-20-2018, 06:23 AM
ATI is not a 1st Tier airline. We cant demand FedEx nor UPS or pay the world just doesn’t function that way. Our MEC and CNC advice is to vote yes. They are currently doing damage control after the above email. Our management may be intellectually challenged but I trust our CNC.

No one makes people stay here. Everyone is free to leave upon ones own will to seek higher pay.

How about at least getting Kalitta and Omni pay. Are you saying ATI pilots are not as worthy as both of those groups? ATSG management certainly doesn't think that about themselves.

BlueSkies88
03-20-2018, 10:25 AM
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-19/airbus-is-said-to-weigh-new-a330-cargo-model-spurred-by-amazon

I heard they’re giving ATI pilots 1% discount and a free prime pilot bag tag for the purchase of the A330 type rating at the AIRBUS training center in Miami.

#pilotpaymatters
#makepilotpaygreatagain

Industry Strnd
03-20-2018, 11:28 AM
One of the biggest issues could be the business opportunity letter at the end. That's a nose in the tent for company controlled pbs or getting rid of home basing. Imagine amazon wants to grow and the company claims home basing is too expensive now that there is a cvg hub. The letter says the union will achieve a Mou to accommodate. Is that not the dumbest letter ever? If there really is a need for an amendment to the cba the company can approach the union at any time to negotiate terms, this was obviously Ford and Harrison out smarting ALPA. Enjoy it!

Now chime In ALPA....that's not what that means.....ohh really

Industry Strnd
03-20-2018, 11:33 AM
Less than 24 hours to save face! Its going to pass so why not change your vote to NO? Atleast you can live the rest of your career saying you tried! Delta and Southwest both voted NO and they got a better deal in very short order. The co threat that the nmb is busy is basically admittig bargaining in bad faith. The nmb doesnt have to attend to get a deal!

ATSG won't turn away growth if yoi say no.....then again ABX is waiting for ATI to cave to keep on financing their retirements and 200 -400k a year!

Riverside
03-21-2018, 06:43 AM
Less than 24 hours to save face! Its going to pass so why not change your vote to NO? Atleast you can live the rest of your career saying you tried! Delta and Southwest both voted NO and they got a better deal in very short order. The co threat that the nmb is busy is basically admittig bargaining in bad faith. The nmb doesnt have to attend to get a deal!

ATSG won't turn away growth if yoi say no.....then again ABX is waiting for ATI to cave to keep on financing their retirements and 200 -400k a year!

You were saying?

gumpscheck
03-21-2018, 07:11 AM
You were saying?

What does that means? Are you proud of the vote results?



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