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View Full Version : From JBALPA MEC


CaptCoolHand
03-04-2018, 01:18 PM
Fellow Pilots,

ALPA National legal counsel has requested that the JBU MEC post this message for those of you on this forum suggesting or advocating that pilots not pick up open time, take other operational steps, or pressure others to do the same: STOP.

Your messages are very ill advised and harm rather than help your negotiating committee. Efforts such as these are counterproductive to secure the fair agreement we all deserve. Your MEC does not support them.

If you are found in violation of the Railway Labor Act by supporting, inciting, or participating in a concerted effort to disrupt JetBlue Airways, you could put your union and fellow pilotsí bargaining strategy in jeopardy. You may potentially be held personally and professionally liable for your actions on this forum. You could also subject yourself to discipline or discharge. Do not think that your online anonymity is guaranteed.

We do not want you to jeopardize our collective interests or your career on the false premise that adding pressure to the company by resorting to illegal activity will result in a favorable outcome.

Lastly, other then this post, the MEC will not be using this forum as a form of communications.

Fraternally,

JBU MEC VC.


CaptCoolHand
03-04-2018, 01:19 PM
We are all frustrated at the current pace...

Be safe. Fly sop.

queue
03-04-2018, 03:14 PM
Fellow Pilots,

ALPA National legal counsel has requested that the JBU MEC post this message for those of you on this forum suggesting or advocating that pilots not pick up open time, take other operational steps, or pressure others to do the same: STOP.

Your messages are very ill advised and harm rather than help your negotiating committee. Efforts such as these are counterproductive to secure the fair agreement we all deserve. Your MEC does not support them.

If you are found in violation of the Railway Labor Act by supporting, inciting, or participating in a concerted effort to disrupt JetBlue Airways, you could put your union and fellow pilotsí bargaining strategy in jeopardy. You may potentially be held personally and professionally liable for your actions on this forum. You could also subject yourself to discipline or discharge. Do not think that your online anonymity is guaranteed.

We do not want you to jeopardize our collective interests or your career on the false premise that adding pressure to the company by resorting to illegal activity will result in a favorable outcome.

Lastly, other then this post, the MEC will not be using this forum as a form of communications.

Fraternally,

JBU MEC VC.

While youíre at it, never be part of the forum that uses your real name and traceable email.


Flyby1206
03-04-2018, 04:14 PM
While youíre at it, never be part of the forum that uses your real name and traceable email.

lol, yea they could never trace your IP otherwise :o

PasserOGas
03-04-2018, 04:26 PM
Fellow Pilots,

ALPA National legal counsel has requested that the JBU MEC post this message for those of you on this forum suggesting or advocating that pilots not pick up open time, take other operational steps, or pressure others to do the same: STOP.

Your messages are very ill advised and harm rather than help your negotiating committee. Efforts such as these are counterproductive to secure the fair agreement we all deserve. Your MEC does not support them.

If you are found in violation of the Railway Labor Act by supporting, inciting, or participating in a concerted effort to disrupt JetBlue Airways, you could put your union and fellow pilotsí bargaining strategy in jeopardy. You may potentially be held personally and professionally liable for your actions on this forum. You could also subject yourself to discipline or discharge. Do not think that your online anonymity is guaranteed.

We do not want you to jeopardize our collective interests or your career on the false premise that adding pressure to the company by resorting to illegal activity will result in a favorable outcome.

Lastly, other then this post, the MEC will not be using this forum as a form of communications.

Fraternally,

JBU MEC VC.

Dont get much clearer than that!

Fly SOP, FARs and with common sense safety. Dont fly tired just because there is more money in it.

402DRVR
03-04-2018, 05:42 PM
Fellow Pilots,

ALPA National legal counsel has requested that the JBU MEC post this message for those of you on this forum suggesting or advocating that pilots not pick up open time, take other operational steps, or pressure others to do the same: STOP.

Your messages are very ill advised and harm rather than help your negotiating committee. Efforts such as these are counterproductive to secure the fair agreement we all deserve. Your MEC does not support them.

If you are found in violation of the Railway Labor Act by supporting, inciting, or participating in a concerted effort to disrupt JetBlue Airways, you could put your union and fellow pilots’ bargaining strategy in jeopardy. You may potentially be held personally and professionally liable for your actions on this forum. You could also subject yourself to discipline or discharge. Do not think that your online anonymity is guaranteed.

We do not want you to jeopardize our collective interests or your career on the false premise that adding pressure to the company by resorting to illegal activity will result in a favorable outcome.

Lastly, other then this post, the MEC will not be using this forum as a form of communications.

Fraternally,

JBU MEC VC.

Yeah the MEC is right here. Don't need the same issues the Spirit guys had. We should all be careful how our frustrated posts could be taken, myself included. Will let the MEC do my speaking from here out. We can advocate SOP and not violating it in the interest of "helping out" but potentially advocating job actions is a bad path for our group.

Bluedriver
03-06-2018, 07:36 AM
Fellow Pilots,

ALPA National legal counsel has requested that the JBU MEC post this message for those of you on this forum suggesting or advocating that pilots not pick up open time, take other operational steps, or pressure others to do the same: STOP.

Your messages are very ill advised and harm rather than help your negotiating committee. Efforts such as these are counterproductive to secure the fair agreement we all deserve. Your MEC does not support them.

If you are found in violation of the Railway Labor Act by supporting, inciting, or participating in a concerted effort to disrupt JetBlue Airways, you could put your union and fellow pilotsí bargaining strategy in jeopardy. You may potentially be held personally and professionally liable for your actions on this forum. You could also subject yourself to discipline or discharge. Do not think that your online anonymity is guaranteed.

We do not want you to jeopardize our collective interests or your career on the false premise that adding pressure to the company by resorting to illegal activity will result in a favorable outcome.

Lastly, other then this post, the MEC will not be using this forum as a form of communications.

Fraternally,

JBU MEC VC.

With respect to the MEC message:

I have to agree.

As much as I have expressed my dissatisfaction with the pace of negotiations, I have very intentionally avoided publicly calling for shaming of the RSA/VDA girls. I have avoided calling for 3 engine taxi's or write up campaigns. I have avoided publicly calling for sick calls or unwarranted fatigue calls. I have avoided publicly instructing JB pilots to disrupt the daily operations.

I suggest you all do the same.

This company is executing it's business strategy very well. They are number *one* in profit per passenger. They have the number 1 or 2 balance sheet in the business. They have one of the top and sometimes the top profit margin in the industry. They have a completion factor that is completely acceptable to the company. They are accomplishing all of this with our current rates of pay and work rules. They literally have NO, NONE or in JB speak NONE WHATSOEVER reason or intention of signing a market rate contract that will cost them hundreds of millions of dollars with NO BENEFIT to the company (in their mind).

They would literally prefer to litigate this pilot group into a corner/cause additional delay vs negotiate a market rate contract. So do not give them an opportunity by publicly calling for job actions that may harm their business.

Respectfully,

BD

Final Clear
03-06-2018, 12:06 PM
With respect to the MEC message:

I have to agree.

As much as I have expressed my dissatisfaction with the pace of negotiations, I have very intentionally avoided publicly calling for shaming of the RSA/VDA girls. I have avoided calling for 3 engine taxi's or write up campaigns. I have avoided publicly calling for sick calls or unwarranted fatigue calls. I have avoided publicly instructing JB pilots to disrupt the daily operations.

I suggest you all do the same.

This company is executing it's business strategy very well. They are number *one* in profit per passenger. They have the number 1 or 2 balance sheet in the business. They have one of the top and sometimes the top profit margin in the industry. They have a completion factor that is completely acceptable to the company. They are accomplishing all of this with our current rates of pay and work rules. They literally have NO, NONE or in JB speak NONE WHATSOEVER reason or intention of signing a market rate contract that will cost them hundreds of millions of dollars with NO BENEFIT to the company (in their mind).

They would literally prefer to litigate this pilot group into a corner/cause additional delay vs negotiate a market rate contract. So do not give them an opportunity by publicly calling for job actions that may harm their business.

Respectfully,

BD

...the "bottom line" numbers are having an adverse effect on the "nice to have" things. I agree with you in that, at this time, they don't care about the "nice to have" things. The real question is...at what point do our paying customers care?

Hey jetblue...FUPM,

FC

Hercbubba
03-06-2018, 12:13 PM
This is not from the JBALPA MEC...

Itís pretty funny everyone is falling for it. If the MEC wants us to not post on here, they will send us an email through the company email, not by someone called Captcoolhand?

With that said, fly your schedule, nothing more, nothing less! Itís pretty simple if we want a contract!!!

Flyby1206
03-06-2018, 12:19 PM
This is not from the JBALPA MEC...

Itís pretty funny everyone is falling for it. If the MEC wants us to not post on here, they will send us an email through the company email, not by someone called Captcoolhand?

With that said, fly your schedule, nothing more, nothing less! Itís pretty simple if we want a contract!!!

The original post came from Bluepilots and Dario Miranda posted it himself.

Hercbubba
03-06-2018, 01:41 PM
Until it comes through official work email, Iíll continue to post what I feel is necessary to make selfish pilots stop picking up RSA and VDA.

If what we say on APC matters, then the MEC would send out an ALPA blast telling us to knock it off? Iíll stop when I get one of those...

say again
03-06-2018, 01:42 PM
Until it comes through official work email, Iíll continue to post what I feel is necessary to make selfish pilots stop picking up RSA and VDA.

If what we say on APC matters, then the MEC would send out an ALPA blast telling us to knock it off? Iíll stop when I get one of those...

Real smart....:rolleyes:

Bluedriver
03-06-2018, 01:45 PM
Until it comes through official work email, Iíll continue to post what I feel is necessary to make selfish pilots stop picking up RSA and VDA.

If what we say on APC matters, then the MEC would send out an ALPA blast telling us to knock it off? Iíll stop when I get one of those...

For what it's worth, I believe this is an authentic MEC communication. Not through normal channels, which is not JB email but to your personal email account. But, still came from a member of the MEC.

I strongly suggest you not publicly call for actions that adversely affect JB Corp. I literally think the company wants you to do so. No, I'm not kidding.

pilotpayne
03-06-2018, 02:13 PM
For what it's worth, I believe this is an authentic MEC communication. Not through normal channels, which is not JB email but to your personal email account. But, still came from a member of the MEC.

I strongly suggest you not publicly call for actions that adversely affect JB Corp. I literally think the company wants you to do so. No, I'm not kidding.


They want ammo and any excuse to hit back at us. This was talked about over and over on BP. You just canít go and call for anything like that.

queue
03-06-2018, 02:27 PM
" Make no mistake, we are now deeply entrenched in a labor dispute. We must continue to strengthen our unity while letting management know that the well of pilot goodwill has run dry. Remember, our duties as JetBlue pilots are clearly spelled out in the company manuals and federal regulations. Nowhere are we required to make standup PAs, don blue gloves and clean the aircraft, or go outside of our normal job description. Nor will any of these acts of pilot generosity help us achieve a market-rate contract. "

While I like what they said in this message (despite no actual results demonstrated), they need to clarify what "donning the blue gloves" really means.



On a trip = No blue gloves



Commuting to/from work = don blue gloves


I keep emphasizing this because we have no legal resolution or even a union sponsored grievance against blue gloves when we get a ride to/from work, even if we're in uniform.

feltf4
03-06-2018, 02:36 PM
" Make no mistake, we are now deeply entrenched in a labor dispute. We must continue to strengthen our unity while letting management know that the well of pilot goodwill has run dry. Remember, our duties as JetBlue pilots are clearly spelled out in the company manuals and federal regulations. Nowhere are we required to make standup PAs, don blue gloves and clean the aircraft, or go outside of our normal job description. Nor will any of these acts of pilot generosity help us achieve a market-rate contract. "

While I like what they said in this message (despite no actual results demonstrated), they need to clarify what "donning the blue gloves" really means.



On a trip = No blue gloves



Commuting to/from work = don blue gloves


I keep emphasizing this because we have no legal resolution or even a union sponsored grievance against blue gloves when we get a ride to/from work, even if we're in uniform.



Lol, seen no commuting pilot clean a plane.

PasserOGas
03-06-2018, 02:42 PM
Lol, seen no commuting pilot clean a plane.

NEVER clean the plane while commuting. Not a job action since you aren't at work. I think they know that is a losing court battle if they enforce it.

Please come and get me Joanna, I *******ing dare you. Labor attorney on standby. I NEVER clean the panes.

Bluedriver
03-06-2018, 02:45 PM
They want ammo and any excuse to hit back at us. This was talked about over and over on BP. You just canít go and call for anything like that.

Agreed.

They have no use for an expensive pilot CBA. Their business plan is working amazing without one, and they have no intention of changing the current arrangement anytime soon.

They would literally prefer to sue JBALPA and drag our pilots name through the mud to delay a CBA, so don't give them an opportunity...

Besides, they desperately need someone else to blame besides ATC and hurricanes.

Do NOT make public statements calling for illegal job actions. Period.

queue
03-06-2018, 02:54 PM
NEVER clean the plane while commuting. Not a job action since you aren't at work. I think they know that is a losing court battle if they enforce it.

Please come and get me Joanna, I *******ing dare you. Labor attorney on standby. I NEVER clean the panes.

I don't suppose you could talk to this labor attorney and ask him to press JB on it? I think he ought to sue on behalf of all pilots (particularly since ALPA will not do anything about this policy). If it is, in fact, not enforceable for JB to make us work in compensation for non-rev benefits, then why hasn't ALPA sued JB? Wouldn't your attorney stand to make money from JB even if they took the case for free? I don't care if he gets 100% of the settlement. In fact, if he wins, I hope he does take all the settlement. I just want a line drawn in the sand that has legal authority. I'm not convinced that we can't clean because it's written in documents that we signed (e.g. the training we were blackmailed into completing [complete or no commute]).

This would be meaningful action if this attorney sued JB!!!! It's the ONLY way to get things done with them.

Hercbubba
03-06-2018, 03:25 PM
I just read the ALPA B6 Blast...
If itís that important to not post on this site, Iím sure they would mentioned it?


ďUntil then, simply do your job.Ē

Which to me, means fly you awarded schedule, nothing more, nothing less!

We can say what we want, but no self respecting labor attorney would even bring anything we put on a anonymous site to the mediator, when we arenít organizing a work stoppage...telling people to do your job, nothing more, nothing less means donít pick up RSA or VDA!

Whoever does, is taking money out of all our pockets to fill their own selfish, greedy spending habits!

Bluedriver
03-06-2018, 04:31 PM
I just read the ALPA B6 Blast...
If itís that important to not post on this site, Iím sure they would mentioned it?


ďUntil then, simply do your job.Ē

Which to me, means fly you awarded schedule, nothing more, nothing less!

We can say what we want, but no self respecting labor attorney would even bring anything we put on a anonymous site to the mediator, when we arenít organizing a work stoppage...telling people to do your job, nothing more, nothing less means donít pick up RSA or VDA!

Whoever does, is taking money out of all our pockets to fill their own selfish, greedy spending habits!

Herc, I have been up close and very personal with this process in the past. Publicly pressuring our fellow pilots to stop picking up overtime (RSA/VDA) is in fact a violation of federal law if the intent is to put pressure on the company during contract negotiations.

I don't agree with the law itself, but that doesn't make it not exist. Spirit ALPA was just put through the legal wringer for basically the same thing.

Seriously, I believe the company WANTS us to publicly hang ourselves. They would love to tie us up in court and further delay this process. Let's not give them that opportunity. Do not call for actions publicly that will harm the operations.

I do believe this message came from the MEC. Why don't you just send a simple email to Dario and ask if he wrote it or if it came from the MEC?

Furthermore, I also do NOT believe the timing of this communication was random. Read into that what you want. It is very much time to be very careful with what we all say.

It is against federal law to intentionally harm the corporation to pressure them during negotiations, especially including a coordinated work slow-down.

Just do your JOB, SOP, as the union and our chief pilot have asked.

pilotpayne
03-06-2018, 04:51 PM
Herc, I have been up close and very personal with this process in the past. Publicly pressuring our fellow pilots to stop picking up overtime (RSA/VDA) is in fact a violation of federal law if the intent is to put pressure on the company during contract negotiations.

I don't agree with the law itself, but that doesn't make it not exist. Spirit ALPA was just put through the legal wringer for basically the same thing.

Seriously, I believe the company WANTS us to publicly hang ourselves. They would love to tie us up in court and further delay this process. Let's not give them that opportunity. Do not call for actions publicly that will harm the operations.

I do believe this message came from the MEC. Why don't you just send a simple email to Dario and ask if he wrote it or if it came from the MEC?

Furthermore, I also do NOT believe the timing of this communication was random. Read into that what you want. It is very much time to be very careful with what we all say.

It is against federal law to intentionally harm the corporation to pressure them during negotiations, especially including a coordinated work slow-down.

Just do your JOB, SOP, as the union and our chief pilot have asked.


Exactly it was put out for a reason.

Hercbubba
03-06-2018, 04:58 PM
I appreciate your honesty and not being hostile toward me.

Iíve said my peace...I disagree with what you are saying because when people pick up VDA and RSA that makes the company believe they donít need to hire more! When you see the same people doing extra work and making about 1.2 times more a month than most of the other pilots, that not only hurts the rest of us, like the people who need a job and are looking to get hired. Look at the CAís...they barely get vacation unless they are top 10 percent. If they made more CAís, then itís good for everyone, and the company because people can have an actual life outside JB.

Nobody is telling people to stop working? Iím telling them the exact same thing the MEC says in their emails.

ďMake no mistake, we are now deeply entrenched in a labor dispute. We must continue to strengthen our unity while letting management know that the well of pilot goodwill has run dry. Remember, our duties as JetBlue pilots are clearly spelled out in the company manuals and federal regulations. Nowhere are we required to make standup PAs, don blue gloves and clean the aircraft, or go outside of our normal job description. Nor will any of these acts of pilot generosity help us achieve a market-rate contract.Ē

ďBe the professional pilot you have always been, but remember, cultural dividends will not fund your retirement or pay your mortgage. As much as your instinct may be to go above and beyond, it is imperative you follow SOP. Pilot unity continues to galvanize as we push toward a resolution. It's this unity, with every one of us rowing in the same direction, that is going to ultimately lead us to a contract we can all be proud of. Until then, simply do your job.Ē

They canít make you work more than what the contract says, so when ďTheyĒ ask you to do more, just donít do it!

Iím done here...hope we get a contract before I turn 65!!!

Southerner
03-06-2018, 05:19 PM
I appreciate your honesty and not being hostile toward me.

Iíve said my peace...I disagree with what you are saying because when people pick up VDA and RSA that makes the company believe they donít need to hire more! When you see the same people doing extra work and making about 1.2 times more a month than most of the other pilots, that not only hurts the rest of us, like the people who need a job and are looking to get hired. Look at the CAís...they barely get vacation unless they are top 10 percent. If they made more CAís, then itís good for everyone, and the company because people can have an actual life outside JB.

Nobody is telling people to stop working? Iím telling them the exact same thing the MEC says in their emails.

ďMake no mistake, we are now deeply entrenched in a labor dispute. We must continue to strengthen our unity while letting management know that the well of pilot goodwill has run dry. Remember, our duties as JetBlue pilots are clearly spelled out in the company manuals and federal regulations. Nowhere are we required to make standup PAs, don blue gloves and clean the aircraft, or go outside of our normal job description. Nor will any of these acts of pilot generosity help us achieve a market-rate contract.Ē

ďBe the professional pilot you have always been, but remember, cultural dividends will not fund your retirement or pay your mortgage. As much as your instinct may be to go above and beyond, it is imperative you follow SOP. Pilot unity continues to galvanize as we push toward a resolution. It's this unity, with every one of us rowing in the same direction, that is going to ultimately lead us to a contract we can all be proud of. Until then, simply do your job.Ē

They canít make you work more than what the contract says, so when ďTheyĒ ask you to do more, just donít do it!

Iím done here...hope we get a contract before I turn 65!!!

He probably agrees that picking up RSA/VDA causes a lower need from pilots. But you are missing the point. It is illegal to pressure people to not pick up extra flying. Period. Stop. End.

People are mad a me for not wearing a lanyard, yet here you have wahoos like this guy actually HURTING the process. I don't want my dues going to a fine or for us to be put on ice due to stupidity.

Gordie H
03-06-2018, 05:26 PM
https://skift.com/2017/05/08/spirit-air-sues-its-pilots-union-after-airline-had-to-cancel-hundreds-of-flights/

Gordie H
03-06-2018, 05:29 PM
The end of the above article has the actual Spirit injunction in PDF format....interesting read if you haven't already seen it...

queue
03-06-2018, 05:45 PM
The end of the above article above has the actual Spirit injunction in PDF format....interesting read if you haven't already seen it...

Good reading.

Spirit was clearly in the legal right.

I do wonder if Spirit ALPA did send out "Fly SOP" reminders and cease and desist requests to their members?

JB as a company doesn't say anything because everything they do is lawyered. Robin said he doesn't "negotiate in public" probably because he knows he has nothing to gain from it.

So this begs the question... what can JB pilots do? Can a pilot talk to other pilots without being first asked? Can a JB pilot do a media interview giving information about the industry and what JB pilots are negotiating for?

AYLflyer
03-07-2018, 04:30 AM
Until it comes through official work email, Iíll continue to post what I feel is necessary to make selfish pilots stop picking up RSA and VDA.

If what we say on APC matters, then the MEC would send out an ALPA blast telling us to knock it off? Iíll stop when I get one of those...
'

How thick can a person be? Publicly shaming employees or directing them on what to do is NOT cool especially during a labor dispute. What you say on here can matter. Telling people to not pick up RSAs or open flying could potentially make the situation way worse than those who are actually working an RSA.

If you're waiting for an email from the MEC to tell you that, then it's already too late. Sad that some people here can't see or understand that.


He probably agrees that picking up RSA/VDA causes a lower need from pilots. But you are missing the point. It is illegal to pressure people to not pick up extra flying. Period. Stop. End.

People are mad a me for not wearing a lanyard, yet here you have wahoos like this guy actually HURTING the process. I don't want my dues going to a fine or for us to be put on ice due to stupidity.

Agree.

IwasInverted
03-07-2018, 05:20 AM
Guys, please go back and read the Spirit threads from last year. Once you give them the evidence they will wait for the right time to use it.

RiddleEagle18
03-07-2018, 05:25 AM
The reason we can put out the fly SOP message is because we had guys do a 180 in BOS on the taxi way.

The union doesnít want us distracted by non essential job duties, especially during this stressful time. Safety is our companyís STATED #1 priority after all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

django
03-07-2018, 05:39 AM
Here is the way the courts see it. Any union member is by extension and expression of said organization. Whatever you do as an individual member can and has been used to demonstrate concerted job action.

And letís face it while most pilots are smart they are no intellectualls when it comes to these matters .
So let it go

CaptCoolHand
03-07-2018, 06:05 AM
He probably agrees that picking up RSA/VDA causes a lower need from pilots. But you are missing the point. It is illegal to pressure people to not pick up extra flying. Period. Stop. End.

People are mad a me for not wearing a lanyard, yet here you have wahoos like this guy actually HURTING the process. I don't want my dues going to a fine or for us to be put on ice due to stupidity.

You hurt the process by willfully disregarding a simple request to show unity within the group. You are just as much a part of the problem.

Hercbubba
03-07-2018, 08:33 AM
Good luck to all...hope we get a contract?

Shrek
03-07-2018, 09:58 AM
Iíve said my peace - Iím done here...!!

There - fixed it for you.
DM speaks truth.....

svergin
03-07-2018, 11:36 AM
NEVER clean the plane while commuting. Not a job action since you aren't at work. I think they know that is a losing court battle if they enforce it.

Please come and get me Joanna, I *******ing dare you. Labor attorney on standby. I NEVER clean the panes.

Wait...your pilots have to clean the plane? This is a joke, right?

say again
03-07-2018, 12:05 PM
Wait...your pilots have to clean the plane? This is a joke, right?

No, we don't have to clean the plane.

Bluedriver
03-07-2018, 01:05 PM
No, we don't have to clean the plane.

Yes, we do, if we use our non-revenue flight benefits.

In other words, to fly for free on JB, we are required to help clean the plane.

Not joking. Not sure why Say again didn't add the full response.

coopervane
03-07-2018, 01:07 PM
No, we don't have to clean the plane.


We absolutely ARE expected to clean the aircraft if we are non-revving and according to the company, when we are deadheading. Not while operating the flight however.

Weather we do it or not is an individual descision.

I choose not to pitch in.

Buy yes......we are pilots and the company would very much like us to dig through seat back pockets with gloves on.

queue
03-07-2018, 01:14 PM
JetBlue pilots are expected to clean if going to work, coming home from work, generally known as non-reving. They even mentioned cleaning whether you are traveling for "business or pleasure". The *only* time you are not expected to clean is when you working the flight.

The worst part is that they basically blackmailed everyone into it. They made everyone take an online training. At the end of the training, it made you sign your name and initials. You agreed to cleaning or else you lose your non-rev privileges.

Imagine that! A company that cares about culture and humanity yet they FORCE YOU to agree to something knowing full well that without it, you can't commute to work!

There was no opposition from the union or JetBlue pilots because the policy is still in place and worst of all, we were all coerced into signing it or basically we can't get to work.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. JB succeeded in making pilots do this. Where will it end? Will they make us clean the lavatories or else they take away our non-rev/jumpseat privileges? Legally, nothing is stopping them as long as we keep signing the legal documents and we don't oppose them with lawsuits. They know this!

Silver02ex
03-07-2018, 01:26 PM
Guys, please go back and read the Spirit threads from last year. Once you give them the evidence they will wait for the right time to use it.

Exactly! Donít make the same mistake as some pilots at Spirit. In the TRO, it shows messages posted on APC. Someone went as far as publicly shaming those who picked up OT, with their full names.

RiddleEagle18
03-07-2018, 01:26 PM
We absolutely ARE expected to clean the aircraft if we are non-revving and according to the company, when we are deadheading. Not while operating the flight however.



Weather we do it or not is an individual descision.



I choose not to pitch in.



Buy yes......we are pilots and the company would very much like us to dig through seat back pockets with gloves on.



Where does it say anything about cleaning while deadheading?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

say again
03-07-2018, 01:34 PM
We absolutely ARE expected to clean the aircraft if we are non-revving and according to the company, when we are deadheading. Not while operating the flight however.

Weather we do it or not is an individual descision.

I choose not to pitch in.

Buy yes......we are pilots and the company would very much like us to dig through seat back pockets with gloves on.

Ok, ok, when non-revving, yes (though many do not). As for pilot duties, no. I haven't put on one set of blue gloves since I've been here. They could very much like us to dig through and put on gloves, and if you're stupid enough to do it then that's on you.

queue
03-07-2018, 01:37 PM
Ok, ok, when non-revving, yes (though many do not). As for pilot duties, no. I haven't put on one set of blue gloves since I've been here. They could very much like us to dig through and put on gloves, and if you're stupid enough to do it then that's on you.


I'm glad you don't.

I just wish we had a legal argument to abolish the policy altogether. They could use the legal argument any day they want to against us.

coopervane
03-07-2018, 01:39 PM
Where does it say anything about cleaning while deadheading?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is a bit of a grey area, however, Joanna told a roomful of FA's that Deadheaders were expected to clean and if they (or anybody) doesnít help out.....she wants their names......and she will ďabsolutely reach outĒ to them to find out what their problem is.

That sound like they expect EVERYBODY to clean.

Do you think delta pilots have these threads? Arguing about when they have to and when they donít have to CLEAN THE GODDAM AIRPLANES????? For 40% more than we are paid.

say again
03-07-2018, 01:43 PM
I'm glad you don't.

I just wish we had a legal argument to abolish the policy altogether. They could use the legal argument any day they want to against us.

I agree 100%. Just abolish the whole idea and let the workers who are paid to clean do their job.

queue
03-07-2018, 01:45 PM
That is a bit of a grey area, however, Joanna told a roomful of FA's that Deadheaders were expected to clean and if they (or anybody) doesnít help out.....she wants their names......and she will ďabsolutely reach outĒ to them to find out what their problem is.

That sound like they expect EVERYBODY to clean.

Do you think delta pilots have these threads? Arguing about when they have to and when they donít have to CLEAN THE GODDAM AIRPLANES????? For 40% more than we are paid.


Delta pilots are professionals who respect themselves and the profession. Far too many JB pilots don't get this concept. That's why the company insults with their horrible pay rates, benefits, and work rules.

Shrek
03-07-2018, 02:29 PM
JetBlue pilots are expected to clean if going to work, coming home from work, generally known as non-reving. They even mentioned cleaning whether you are traveling for "business or pleasure". The *only* time you are not expected to clean is when you working the flight.

The worst part is that they basically blackmailed everyone into it. They made everyone take an online training. At the end of the training, it made you sign your name and initials. You agreed to cleaning or else you lose your non-rev privileges.

Imagine that! A company that cares about culture and humanity yet they FORCE YOU to agree to something knowing full well that without it, you can't commute to work!

There was no opposition from the union or JetBlue pilots because the policy is still in place and worst of all, we were all coerced into signing it or basically we can't get to work.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. JB succeeded in making pilots do this. Where will it end? Will they make us clean the lavatories or else they take away our non-rev/jumpseat privileges? Legally, nothing is stopping them as long as we keep signing the legal documents and we don't oppose them with lawsuits. They know this!
Right after the Scope section that would be struck from the contract post-haste - ridiculous.

PasserOGas
03-07-2018, 02:38 PM
He probably agrees that picking up RSA/VDA causes a lower need from pilots. But you are missing the point. It is illegal to pressure people to not pick up extra flying. Period. Stop. End.

People are mad a me for not wearing a lanyard, yet here you have wahoos like this guy actually HURTING the process. I don't want my dues going to a fine or for us to be put on ice due to stupidity.

People are mad at you because when it comes down to it you always defend this company and the management. ALWAYS. You have never come out for your fellow pilots. The lanyard just proves you dont support them, and is icing on the cake.

pilotpayne
03-07-2018, 03:02 PM
That is a bit of a grey area, however, Joanna told a roomful of FA's that Deadheaders were expected to clean and if they (or anybody) doesnít help out.....she wants their names......and she will ďabsolutely reach outĒ to them to find out what their problem is.

That sound like they expect EVERYBODY to clean.

Do you think delta pilots have these threads? Arguing about when they have to and when they donít have to CLEAN THE GODDAM AIRPLANES????? For 40% more than we are paid.

There is a little more to that story.
JG was talking at some leadership thing in jfk.
She was saying how everyone needs to help and we canít hire cleaners (bs)
A flight attendant pushed back saying they had someone from HQ that got on never introduced themselves and got off without helping.
So one of her own wouldnít even help. Thatís when she asked for a name. The FA balked at that and kept pushing her (future leader of their union) it went downhill from there.

The union has said we are not REQUIRED to clean while operating or DH.....the end .....full stop.

Southerner
03-07-2018, 03:56 PM
You hurt the process by willfully disregarding a simple request to show unity within the group. You are just as much a part of the problem.

Disagree. But that's why America is great. We can disagree, and go about our business. I support the pilot group, and have every bit as much desire to get a contract as you or anyone else. You may interpret my lack of a lanyard as non-support, but that's a misinterpretation.

Southerner
03-07-2018, 04:01 PM
People are mad at you because when it comes down to it you always defend this company and the management. ALWAYS. You have never come out for your fellow pilots. The lanyard just proves you dont support them, and is icing on the cake.

Negative. I defend logic and reason. I oppose rhetoric and illogical emotion. Again, you interpret that as defending the company, when all I'm doing is asking for people to keep their heads on straight and not exaggerate things merely because they are emotional. Your interpretation is incorrect. You take ANY pushback against the rhetoric as full support for the opposite side.

I've said over and over again that we absolutely need a CBA, and we need it yesterday. I was wrong about the timing, and I lost a bunch of money and Scotch with those bets.

Final Clear
03-07-2018, 04:12 PM
Disagree. But that's why America is great. We can disagree, and go about our business. I support the pilot group, and have every bit as much desire to get a contract as you or anyone else. You may interpret my lack of a lanyard as non-support, but that's a misinterpretation.

...it's NOT a misinterpretation by us. The MEC has asked all members to wear a lanyard. The misinterpretation is BY YOU in the fact that you think you are supporting the membership in their drive for a contract by not wearing your lanyard...when in fact you are showing a complete lack of respect for your fellow B6 ALPA brothers and sisters and the MEC/NC by your willful, dare I see gleeful, disregard to this request. Your complete foolishness is laid to bare for all to see when you brag on a public forum about how you thumb your nose at the rest of us who fully support the membership and the MEC/NC by complying with this simple request.

Shame on you for your foolhardy attempt to justify your ignorance, or worse...your subversion of the task at hand.

GFY...

FC

Southerner
03-07-2018, 04:37 PM
...it's NOT a misinterpretation by us. The MEC has asked all members to wear a lanyard. The misinterpretation is BY YOU in the fact that you think you are supporting the membership in their drive for a contract by not wearing your lanyard...when in fact you are showing a complete lack of respect for your fellow B6 ALPA brothers and sisters and the MEC/NC by your willful, dare I see gleeful, disregard to this request. Your complete foolishness is laid to bare for all to see when you brag on a public forum about how you thumb your nose at the rest of us who fully support the membership and the MEC/NC by complying with this simple request.

Shame on you for your foolhardy attempt to justify your ignorance, or worse...your subversion of the task at hand.

GFY...

FC

Dude. Calm down. You're gonna blow a gasket...

queue
03-07-2018, 04:47 PM
Dude. Calm down. You're gonna blow a gasket...

Why don't you just wear your lanyard? I doubt it's a religious conviction.

Are you trying to play both sides? Are you a project pilot or something? I thought all JB staff pilots could wear an ALPA lanyard even if they do more than fly airplanes...

I'm just asking. I only care about whether you end up voting for a substandard contract...

Ed Force One
03-07-2018, 05:03 PM
Spirit pilot here.

Be very careful what you post, for sure. But also keep in mind that you could very well have management trolls posting these negative things as well. While I suppose it can't be proven, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of the incriminating posts in the Spirit case were not made by Spirit pilots.

Also, our MEC had us document suspicious looking company activity. For example, Spirit cancelled flights even though there was a full crew of Pilots and FAs at the gate. When the Schedulers were told there was a full crew, no one cared. Have your MEC call our MEC, if they haven't already.

I'm of the firm belief that our Spring Meltdown was partially engineered, or at least helped along by the company.

Many are saying that the reason our new contract is so poor is because the TRO took away our credibility. If your Mgmt is as evil as ours, it's probably the next play in their playbook. We got played perfectly, don't let it happen to you.

ThreeStripe
03-07-2018, 05:28 PM
Let me try and take some of the heat off Southerner with this question. I have worn a lanyard here since day one at the request of the union. For my entire airline career before here, I have never worn one. I don't like my ID hanging around my neck. So, when we eventually get a TA and contract, will you fine people look on me with contempt if I no longer wear a lanyard until negotiations start again? I humbly await your responses.

Beechnut
03-07-2018, 06:20 PM
Southerner, wear your lanyard. You are tagged ďagainst us.Ē It is just that simple.

hilltopflyer
03-07-2018, 06:29 PM
Let me try and take some of the heat off Southerner with this question. I have worn a lanyard here since day one at the request of the union. For my entire airline career before here, I have never worn one. I don't like my ID hanging around my neck. So, when we eventually get a TA and contract, will you fine people look on me with contempt if I no longer wear a lanyard until negotiations start again? I humbly await your responses.

Nope just during contract negotiations is all I care about. Because our mec asked us too and to show support for them and their work.

django
03-07-2018, 07:18 PM
I have never nor will ever clean an aircraft under any circumstances.

BTW the ALPA lanyard tends to break and have had to replace it thrice.

pilotpayne
03-07-2018, 08:36 PM
Why don't you just wear your lanyard? I doubt it's a religious conviction.

Are you trying to play both sides? Are you a project pilot or something? I thought all JB staff pilots could wear an ALPA lanyard even if they do more than fly airplanes...

I'm just asking. I only care about whether you end up voting for a substandard contract...

If you don’t care why ask?

pilotpayne
03-07-2018, 08:37 PM
Nope just during contract negotiations is all I care about. Because our mec asked us too and to show support for them and their work.

Thank god I hate the thing, but I wear it.

P-3Bubba
03-08-2018, 03:22 AM
Don’t worry about shaming RSA, VDA and ‘Helpers Out’. They’re out in full force. They’re ability to buck the MEC guidance prevails.

Yesterday. I timed out.But never fear a crew was found in a nearby motel who graciously called CS back and accepted a “great deal guys”!

This was after I was verbally confronted by the gate agent who told me I was going to “inconvenience all these people”. Then, had customers verbally inject their disgust at my willingness to follow Federal Regulation in regards to FDP. it was a great time to be a professional at BJ.

But, hey that crew “got their $$ good deal”. I got a min rest night and this AM into a 2.5 hour limo to my next two flights.

Things are great guys. Love the unity.

-Bubs

PasserOGas
03-08-2018, 05:09 AM
Donít worry about shaming RSA, VDA and ĎHelpers Outí. Theyíre out in full force. Theyíre ability to buck the MEC guidance prevails.

Yesterday. I timed out.But never fear a crew was found in a nearby motel who graciously called CS back and accepted a ďgreat deal guysĒ!

This was after I was verbally confronted by the gate agent who told me I was going to ďinconvenience all these peopleĒ. Then, had customers verbally inject their disgust at my willingness to follow Federal Regulation in regards to FDP. it was a great time to be a professional at BJ.

But, hey that crew ďgot their $$ good dealĒ. I got a min rest night and this AM into a 2.5 hour limo to my next two flights.

Things are great guys. Love the unity.

-Bubs

First, the MEC guidance says NOTHING about RSA/VDA. Please stop hinting that it does. I really want to go on strike and you are [email protected]&#ing that up.

The gate agent called you out in front of the passengers? Wow. I would have had a talk with the CP about that.

Bluedriver
03-08-2018, 06:58 AM
Donít worry about shaming RSA, VDA and ĎHelpers Outí. Theyíre out in full force. Theyíre ability to buck the MEC guidance prevails.

Yesterday. I timed out.But never fear a crew was found in a nearby motel who graciously called CS back and accepted a ďgreat deal guysĒ!

This was after I was verbally confronted by the gate agent who told me I was going to ďinconvenience all these peopleĒ. Then, had customers verbally inject their disgust at my willingness to follow Federal Regulation in regards to FDP. it was a great time to be a professional at BJ.

But, hey that crew ďgot their $$ good dealĒ. I got a min rest night and this AM into a 2.5 hour limo to my next two flights.

Things are great guys. Love the unity.

-Bubs

I agree with the gas-passer.

Guys, it's about to get ugly, possibly legally ugly. I personally know of current termination that doesn't smell very good. Listen to the Spirit guys that have posted here recently. Don't underestimate what the company may be willing to do to continue saving hundreds of millions of dollars.

We CANNOT publicly shame the RSA/VDA/overtime crowd. It is illegal and I do NOT believe the MECs recent communication was a timing coincidence.

We must self-police and ensure no public calls for a job-action are made or allowed to stand without a strong group rebuke.

We (I) do not condone illegal job actions against JB, including public shaming of the RSA/VDA guys.

As the recent union communication says, it is becoming apparent (just now, are you kidding?) that management is digging in the heels for a long struggle. Think about that.... Just *now*, after most of you thought we would already have a deal done, management is digging in their heels for a long struggle!

SOP, as our union and our *chief pilot* have told us to do.

And we need to watch for shark posters and unusual activity.

Hercbubba
03-08-2018, 07:39 AM
I will never stop shaming...Spirit got called out, and they got a deal within 7 months. I see that as a good thing.

This is a forum...we can say what we want. Work, donít work...email the CEO, who cares. No matter what everyone thinks on here, nobody at the mediation board cares. No self respecting attorney is going to use anonymous quotes from a chat room to come to a decision about a contract.

So once again...stop picking up RSA and VDA. Itís pretty simple.

The worst that can happen, is the company drags itís feet. If we donít stop doing VDA, RDA, the worst thing that will happen, is the company drags itís feet. Itís a lose-lose situation either way!

APC is a great lace to air your frustrations, and thatís about all itís good for!

Iím off till Saturday, so Iím going skiing. Enjoy your RSA and VDA pay!

pilotpayne
03-08-2018, 07:55 AM
I will never stop shaming...Spirit got called out, and they got a deal within 7 months. I see that as a good thing.

This is a forum...we can say what we want. Work, donít work...email the CEO, who cares. No matter what everyone thinks on here, nobody at the mediation board cares. No self respecting attorney is going to use anonymous quotes from a chat room to come to a decision about a contract.

So once again...stop picking up RSA and VDA. Itís pretty simple.

The worst that can happen, is the company drags itís feet. If we donít stop doing VDA, RDA, the worst thing that will happen, is the company drags itís feet. Itís a lose-lose situation either way!

APC is a great lace to air your frustrations, and thatís about all itís good for!

Iím off till Saturday, so Iím going skiing. Enjoy your RSA and VDA pay!



Oh they have used quotes from the internet.
I sat through an ALPA presentation at ALPA HQ talking about this very thing and how it can and WILL be used against the pilot group. It has been done. Now you can refuse to believe it all you want but ALPA would disagree so you tell me who is right.

Bluedriver
03-08-2018, 08:02 AM
I will never stop shaming...Spirit got called out, and they got a deal within 7 months. I see that as a good thing.

This is a forum...we can say what we want. Work, donít work...email the CEO, who cares. No matter what everyone thinks on here, nobody at the mediation board cares. No self respecting attorney is going to use anonymous quotes from a chat room to come to a decision about a contract.

So once again...stop picking up RSA and VDA. Itís pretty simple.

The worst that can happen, is the company drags itís feet. If we donít stop doing VDA, RDA, the worst thing that will happen, is the company drags itís feet. Itís a lose-lose situation either way!

APC is a great lace to air your frustrations, and thatís about all itís good for!

Iím off till Saturday, so Iím going skiing. Enjoy your RSA and VDA pay!

You are so wrong dude. Your MEC has asked you to stop publicly shaming the overtime crowd, understand they know more than you do.

And you are not anonymous the moment JB files a lawsuit against JBALPA for inciting illegal job-actions against the company. APC will be required to turn over your IP address and sign up info including email address.

If you think I'm wrong, you simply don't know what you don't know.

So, follow MEC guidance and stop publicly shaming the RSA/VDA crowd.

FYI, I have never done an RSA/VDA and you KNOW I'm not a company cheerleader.

Respectfully.

queue
03-08-2018, 08:11 AM
There is a little more to that story.
JG was talking at some leadership thing in jfk.
She was saying how everyone needs to help and we canít hire cleaners (bs)
A flight attendant pushed back saying they had someone from HQ that got on never introduced themselves and got off without helping.
So one of her own wouldnít even help. Thatís when she asked for a name. The FA balked at that and kept pushing her (future leader of their union) it went downhill from there.

The union has said we are not REQUIRED to clean while operating or DH.....the end .....full stop.

Not full stop... yes, we all know we're not cleaning while working. However, the issue is while commuting to and from work.

Bluedriver
03-08-2018, 08:13 AM
Negative. I defend logic and reason. I oppose rhetoric and illogical emotion. Again, you interpret that as defending the company, when all I'm doing is asking for people to keep their heads on straight and not exaggerate things merely because they are emotional. Your interpretation is incorrect. You take ANY pushback against the rhetoric as full support for the opposite side.

I've said over and over again that we absolutely need a CBA, and we need it yesterday. *****I was wrong about the timing*****, and I lost a bunch of money and Scotch with those bets.

You weren't wrong about the timing, you were trying to do nuclear physicist math calculations with a crayon and a posted note... Well *after* you thought the CBA would be done our union says the company is digging in it's heels for a *long struggle*!

You're a real Rocket Surgeon.

Bluedriver
03-08-2018, 08:16 AM
Not full stop... yes, we all know we're not cleaning while working. However, the issue is while commuting to and from work.

Correct. Do not exclude important information. Not required to clean while on duty, ABSOLUTELY required to clean while commuting and non-revenue.

Now full stop.

queue
03-08-2018, 08:19 AM
If you donít care why ask?

I am guilty of imprecise language.

I do care. However, I don't care to discriminate against you or take any action against you because of your decision not to wear the lanyard.

I honestly want to know in order to improve the condition that motivates you not to wear the lanyard. Personally, I am capable of thinking for myself and supporting the union's objectives whether I wear a lanyard or not. I'm also capable of voting down a part contract proposal either way. If ALPA has dis-served you at some point, then we need to know to improve ALPA's performance (I'm not an ALPA official).

My objective is to have everyone align on a "shared mental model" (hahaha) of what our profession ought to be like in terms of pay, work rules, regulations, testing, etc. This industry wide mental model needs to raise the standards of our profession beyond the gutter its in now.

pilotpayne
03-08-2018, 08:26 AM
I am guilty of imprecise language.

I do care. However, I don't care to discriminate against you or take any action against you because of your decision not to wear the lanyard.

I honestly want to know in order to improve the condition that motivates you not to wear the lanyard. Personally, I am capable of thinking for myself and supporting the union's objectives whether I wear a lanyard or not. I'm also capable of voting down a part contract proposal either way. If ALPA has dis-served you at some point, then we need to know to improve ALPA's performance (I'm not an ALPA official).

My objective is to have everyone align on a "shared mental model" (hahaha) of what our profession ought to be like in terms of pay, work rules, regulations, testing, etc. This industry wide mental model needs to raise the standards of our profession beyond the gutter its in now.

Yeah I donít say anything to a non lanyard guy. At this point it is what it is and Iím not going to change their mind by just harassing them. Now if they want to have a discussion about why it is important than game on. I agree with the rest of your post.

Bluedriver
03-08-2018, 08:34 AM
Yeah I donít say anything to a non lanyard guy. At this point it is what it is and Iím not going to change their mind by just harassing them. Now if they want to have a discussion about why it is important than game on. I agree with the rest of your post.

This is where I'm at for the most part. Very, very hard to fix stupid. Which is just my friendly way of saying they have already chosen which side they will publicly show their support for.

rvr1800
03-08-2018, 09:22 AM
I will never stop shaming...Spirit got called out, and they got a deal within 7 months. I see that as a good thing.

This is a forum...we can say what we want. Work, donít work...email the CEO, who cares. No matter what everyone thinks on here, nobody at the mediation board cares. No self respecting attorney is going to use anonymous quotes from a chat room to come to a decision about a contract.

So once again...stop picking up RSA and VDA. Itís pretty simple.

The worst that can happen, is the company drags itís feet. If we donít stop doing VDA, RDA, the worst thing that will happen, is the company drags itís feet. Itís a lose-lose situation either way!

APC is a great lace to air your frustrations, and thatís about all itís good for!

Iím off till Saturday, so Iím going skiing. Enjoy your RSA and VDA pay!

Pure ignorance. You need to educate yourself on how IP addresses work and the Spirit lawsuit. APC was forced by the court to give out the IP addresses of individual posters on this website and theyíre named in the lawsuit separately from Spirit ALPA. The whole system is against us, especially the courts. Keep poking the bear and you will get bit. Do not bring us all down with you.

Ed Force One
03-08-2018, 09:35 AM
And this Hercbubba guy is exactly what I meant in my above post. Do you know for sure that he's even a JB pilot? Or is he some recently joined, low post-count, Mgmt troll looking to stir the pot and provide evidence to be used against you in a lawsuit?

As I mentioned before, I work for NK, not B6. So therefore I have no idea who Herc or anyone else in this thread is. I'll butt out now. Just wanted to put in my $0.02.

Bluedriver
03-08-2018, 09:38 AM
And this Hercbubba guy is exactly what I meant in my above post. Do you know for sure that he's even a JB pilot? Or is he some recently joined, low post-count, Mgmt troll looking to stir the pot and provide evidence to be used against you in a lawsuit?

As I mentioned before, I work for NK, not B6. So therefore I have no idea who Herc or anyone else in this thread is. I'll butt out now. Just wanted to put in my $0.02.

Please DON'T butt out. We need more info and perspective. Seriously.

I think Herc is a JB pilot, but your insight is still very appreciated. Please monitor our forum and let us know if things don't look right.

pilotpayne
03-08-2018, 10:10 AM
Please DON'T butt out. We need more info and perspective. Seriously.

I think Herc is a JB pilot, but your insight is still very appreciated. Please monitor our forum and let us know if things don't look right.


Unfortunately for some reason guys refuse to listen. There is a difference between fact and opinion. We know for a fact this stuff has been used against pilots yet people based on ďopinionĒ say no they canít....yes they can and they will.

The701Express
03-08-2018, 10:30 AM
From his post history, it looks like Hercbubba has been here about a year and a half.

Herc, if you're so adamant about getting a contract as soon as possible then follow the instructions the MEC has given us all: fly safely, fly SOP, stay informed, wear a lanyard, and don't tell others what to do with regards to RSA/VDA.

The attacks on here against those picking up RSAs or VDAs don't change any of their minds and at best have no effect. At worst your refusal to accept legal precedent provides the company with extra leverage, which will only help them during negotiations.

Concluding Spirits TRO last spring was the sole factor in them getting a TA a year later is ridiculous and ignores all of the events between then and now.

There are actual Spirit pilots on here telling you exactly this. They've been down this road before. Many of them earned their battle star striking almost 10 years ago.

Yelling out of frustration at others you see as working against the pilot group's efforts may feel good, but it's counterproductive.

Following the direction of our MEC, leading by example every day you're at work, and joining with the thousands of other jetblue pilots who are fighting the same battle, in a quiet, unified, and professional manner is hard.

Worthwhile endeavors are rarely easy. If we wanted easy, ALPA would have been voted down and we would have accepted every subsequent PEA, forever an industry laggard.

I'm challenging you Hercbubba and I'm challenging others. I'm challenging you to forego the pointless attacks on here against faceless pilots you view as harming our collective efforts and to fight the hard way, how our MEC has directed us to behave, as the professional aviators we are.

With this way there is no instant gratification, but there are days of intense pride and satisfaction that surpass the fleeting reward any internet rant may provide. Anyone who has attended a rally or the picket understands this.

A hard fought contract earned the right way will be even sweeter and last much longer than any words written here.

Hercbubba
03-08-2018, 04:05 PM
From his post history, it looks like Hercbubba has been here about a year and a half.

Herc, if you're so adamant about getting a contract as soon as possible then follow the instructions the MEC has given us all: fly safely, fly SOP, stay informed, wear a lanyard, and don't tell others what to do with regards to RSA/VDA.

The attacks on here against those picking up RSAs or VDAs don't change any of their minds and at best have no effect. At worst your refusal to accept legal precedent provides the company with extra leverage, which will only help them during negotiations.

Concluding Spirits TRO last spring was the sole factor in them getting a TA a year later is ridiculous and ignores all of the events between then and now.

There are actual Spirit pilots on here telling you exactly this. They've been down this road before. Many of them earned their battle star striking almost 10 years ago.

Yelling out of frustration at others you see as working against the pilot group's efforts may feel good, but it's counterproductive.

Following the direction of our MEC, leading by example every day you're at work, and joining with the thousands of other jetblue pilots who are fighting the same battle, in a quiet, unified, and professional manner is hard.

Worthwhile endeavors are rarely easy. If we wanted easy, ALPA would have been voted down and we would have accepted every subsequent PEA, forever an industry laggard.

I'm challenging you Hercbubba and I'm challenging others. I'm challenging you to forego the pointless attacks on here against faceless pilots you view as harming our collective efforts and to fight the hard way, how our MEC has directed us to behave, as the professional aviators we are.

With this way there is no instant gratification, but there are days of intense pride and satisfaction that surpass the fleeting reward any internet rant may provide. Anyone who has attended a rally or the picket understands this.

A hard fought contract earned the right way will be even sweeter and last much longer than any words written here.

I appreciate your honesty and respect toward my posts. Iíve been wearing the lanyard since day 1. I would have info picketed but was working those days. Iím for the union and for a market rate contract, but really disagree with one thing. PEOPLE WHO DO RSA AND VDA!

I know what the MEC puts out. I get the same emails every other JB pilot does. ďfly safely, fly SOP, stay informed, wear a lanyard, and don't tell others what to do with regards to RSA/VDA.Ē

I have never seen an email stating ďdonít tell others what to do with regards to RSA/VDAĒ.

I have seen emails that say the first part of that quote, and then end with, do your job, nothing more, nothing less. At this point, I wonít tell everyone what that means, because Iíve already said it 10+ times.

If ďtheyĒwant to come after me with a subpoena, then fine...Iíll take whatever punishment they give, but thatís my choice. Iím not doing anything you guys atenít doing when it comes to shaming. Iím just giving my 2 cents, 1 for RSA and the 2nd for VDA. Look at Delta last year. All their pilots stopped picking up trips for 1 month, and the next month they had a contract!

Please, keep talking about what Iím saying every other paragraph over and over. Because the more people who hear what I keep saying, may actually help our situation if they actually stay home, spend some time with their family, instead of just flying what they bid and being happy!

The best thing you can do, is ignore me and maybe Iíll stop posting.

JB management is like a Harvey Weinstein...theyíll keep getting away with it, until someone does something to hurt them...The MEC is doing their job, but if people canít bring themselves to work only what they bid and relax, then the MEC will be negotiating for the unforeseen future, while we lag behind in pay and benefits. The only way to make a JB management feel the pain, is when we have an irop and nobody is around to pick up EXTRA trips.

ďDrop the MicĒ

Final Clear
03-08-2018, 04:12 PM
I appreciate your honesty and respect toward my posts. I’ve been wearing the lanyard since day 1. I would have info picketed but was working those days. I’m for the union and for a market rate contract, but really disagree with one thing. PEOPLE WHO DO RSA AND VDA!

I know what the MEC puts out. I get the same emails every other JB pilot does. “fly safely, fly SOP, stay informed, wear a lanyard, and don't tell others what to do with regards to RSA/VDA.”

I have never seen an email stating “don’t tell others what to do with regards to RSA/VDA”.

I have seen emails that say the first part of that quote, and then end with, do your job, nothing more, nothing less. At this point, I won’t tell everyone what that means, because I’ve already said it 10+ times.

If “they”want to come after me with a subpoena, then fine...I’ll take whatever punishment they give, but that’s my choice. I’m not doing anything you guys aten’t doing when it comes to shaming. I’m just giving my 2 cents, 1 for RSA and the 2nd for VDA. Look at Delta last year. All their pilots stopped picking up trips for 1 month, and the next month they had a contract!

Please, keep talking about what I’m saying every other paragraph over and over. Because the more people who hear what I keep saying, may actually help our situation if they actually stay home, spend some time with their family, instead of just flying what they bid and being happy!

The best thing you can do, is ignore me and maybe I’ll stop posting.

JB management is like a Harvey Weinstein...they’ll keep getting away with it, until someone does something to hurt them...The MEC is doing their job, but if people can’t bring themselves to work only what they bid and relax, then the MEC will be negotiating for the unforeseen future, while we lag behind in pay and benefits. The only way to make a JB management feel the pain, is when we have an irop and nobody is around to pick up EXTRA trips.

“Drop the Mic”

The difference is no one from B6 ALPA nor the MEC has advised the membership to "hurt them". Quite the opposite in fact, they have advised us NOT to harm, or be perceived as harming, jetblue's business and to ONLY DO YOUR ASSIGNED JOB. This shouldn't be that hard for you to understand or comprehend.

Do as you wish, just realize that the union has advised against this type of behavior (intentionally harming jetblue's business) and have said that you stand the risk of being fired with very limited, in any, recourse.

Good luck with that...

"Picking up the mic...and dropping it again"

Hey jetblue...FUPM,

FC

Hercbubba
03-08-2018, 07:10 PM
Thanks for the advice...

I think Iíll be OK...Being that the RSA/VDA problem I speak of, most likely will continue...there wonít be any work stoppage, and weíll end up negotiating for another 2 years. Therefore, nobody will come after me. Win-win

Wear your lanyards, and once again, I hope we get a contract!

I wonít drop the Mic again, but the last one was pretty funny!

Later

AYLflyer
03-09-2018, 05:21 AM
If ďtheyĒwant to come after me with a subpoena, then fine...Iíll take whatever punishment they give, but thatís my choice. Iím not doing anything you guys atenít doing when it comes to shaming. Iím just giving my 2 cents, 1 for RSA and the 2nd for VDA. Look at Delta last year. All their pilots stopped picking up trips for 1 month, and the next month they had a contract!




Wow, tell me this is a joke right? You are not the one who will be punished, it's the entire pilot group that will be punished through your actions.

Just. Stop. There are literally Spirit pilots in this thread who have been through it first hand telling you to stop.



On a side note, I saw Omni got their TA. Haven't seen their work rules, but the pay looks good!

I enjoyed this line from the article, and hope that management sees it...

"Pilots are "a scare resource right now", he says. "To attract pilots, you are going to have to pay where the market is. There is no way around it." https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/omni-air-to-set-new-high-for-first-officer-pay-unio-446511/

thrufru
03-09-2018, 08:29 AM
If I am an operating pilot or dead heading crew member, I am legally on duty. As such, and in regards to cleaning (FOM 10-44, 10-45) I would be afforded all the benefits offered in the event that I sustained an injury while performing the additionally requested duties.

As a non-revenue passenger, I am NOT on duty. In the event that I am injured while cleaning, would I be eligible to file for workers comp, seeing as it was a company required action that led to said injury?

Additionally, if we are being required to perform a service each time we exercise our benefits, are we actually non-revenue passengers, or are we trading services for carriage? A company mandated action is a crew duty. Are there tax implications for the crew member? How about the company?

What if I choose to commute on a flight that gets me in 3 hours prior to my show. As I am now required to perform duty for the company, does my FDP start then?

There are some fun and exciting legal acrobatics regarding these scenarios. It's not nearly as cut and dry as people are led to believe.

PasserOGas
03-09-2018, 10:03 AM
If I am an operating pilot or dead heading crew member, I am legally on duty. As such, and in regards to cleaning (FOM 10-44, 10-45) I would be afforded all the benefits offered in the event that I sustained an injury while performing the additionally requested duties.

As a non-revenue passenger, I am NOT on duty. In the event that I am injured while cleaning, would I be eligible to file for workers comp, seeing as it was a company required action that led to said injury?

Additionally, if we are being required to perform a service each time we exercise our benefits, are we actually non-revenue passengers, or are we trading services for carriage? A company mandated action is a crew duty. Are there tax implications for the crew member? How about the company?

What if I choose to commute on a flight that gets me in 3 hours prior to my show. As I am now required to perform duty for the company, does my FDP start then?

There are some fun and exciting legal acrobatics regarding these scenarios. It's not nearly as cut and dry as people are led to believe.

This is why I believe Joanna G is a paper tiger on this issue. They know its unenforcable. Empty threats. Never clean, on duty or off.

aldonite7667
03-09-2018, 10:42 AM
If I am an operating pilot or dead heading crew member, I am legally on duty. As such, and in regards to cleaning (FOM 10-44, 10-45) I would be afforded all the benefits offered in the event that I sustained an injury while performing the additionally requested duties.

As a non-revenue passenger, I am NOT on duty. In the event that I am injured while cleaning, would I be eligible to file for workers comp, seeing as it was a company required action that led to said injury?

Additionally, if we are being required to perform a service each time we exercise our benefits, are we actually non-revenue passengers, or are we trading services for carriage? A company mandated action is a crew duty. Are there tax implications for the crew member? How about the company?

What if I choose to commute on a flight that gets me in 3 hours prior to my show. As I am now required to perform duty for the company, does my FDP start then?

There are some fun and exciting legal acrobatics regarding these scenarios. It's not nearly as cut and dry as people are led to believe.

The FOM reference you site indemnifies you from ever cleaning. You are still a PIC or SIC just not for that flight, all of your duties for every time you interact with The company are in there. You are still a pilot for the company, whether operating or not. I donít clean, ever.

Gearswinger
03-10-2018, 04:42 AM
The FOM reference you site indemnifies you from ever cleaning. You are still a PIC or SIC just not for that flight, all of your duties for every time you interact with The company are in there. You are still a pilot for the company, whether operating or not. I donít clean, ever.

You are really reaching with that, it doesn't work that way. I agree with not cleaning, I don't, haven't, and will not do it, but that practice on a non rev flight isn't supported by the book like you say it is.

queue
03-10-2018, 12:13 PM
There are some fun and exciting legal acrobatics regarding these scenarios. It's not nearly as cut and dry as people are led to believe.

Precisely my point. We should NOT be tolerant of crafty legal wordsmithing. Vagueness always benefits the company if your butt is on the line.

Did you read the latest message on HelloBJ (Pravda online) regarding negotiations? They talk about "negotiating in good faith" and so forth... it's disgusting. Only a complete fool would believe anything these people say. Sadly, too many people are still drinking the blue juice or apologizing for the company's policies.

queue
03-10-2018, 12:17 PM
The FOM reference you site indemnifies you from ever cleaning. You are still a PIC or SIC just not for that flight, all of your duties for every time you interact with The company are in there. You are still a pilot for the company, whether operating or not. I donít clean, ever.

It's great that you don't clean but the problem is that while you are COMMUTING TO AND FROM WORK, you are REQUIRED to clean. That's the problem.

And no... you are not a PIC or SIC if you are commuting. You are not listed on the release and thus you are not factored into operational control for the flight. If for whatever reason you end up helping to fly the plane, it's an emergency scenario and all CFRs may be violated to the extend required to protect lives.

queue
03-10-2018, 12:20 PM
This is why I believe Joanna G is a paper tiger on this issue. They know its unenforcable. Empty threats. Never clean, on duty or off.

It wasn't meant to be enforceable.

It was designed to be documentable.

This is management 101 stuff. You write a whole series of rules. No one can practically follow them 100% of the time to 100% accuracy. If you become a problem child to them by impacting operations (e.g. by enabling their bad behaviors), they will build a parallel case of anything they can find. For example, they will pull up your WiFi browsing history. They will see if you ever used FLICA inflight. You may not get fired or suspended for one specific thing, but overall you could be demonstrated to be insubordinate for a variety of little things. If you don't believe this stuff happens, then you've never been in management in a corporation and you're naive to how things really work.

amcflyboy
03-11-2018, 09:04 AM
I agree with the gas-passer.

Guys, it's about to get ugly, possibly legally ugly. I personally know of current termination that doesn't smell very good. Listen to the Spirit guys that have posted here recently. Don't underestimate what the company may be willing to do to continue saving hundreds of millions of dollars.

We CANNOT publicly shame the RSA/VDA/overtime crowd. It is illegal and I do NOT believe the MECs recent communication was a timing coincidence.

We must self-police and ensure no public calls for a job-action are made or allowed to stand without a strong group rebuke.

We (I) do not condone illegal job actions against JB, including public shaming of the RSA/VDA guys.

As the recent union communication says, it is becoming apparent (just now, are you kidding?) that management is digging in the heels for a long struggle. Think about that.... Just *now*, after most of you thought we would already have a deal done, management is digging in their heels for a long struggle!

SOP, as our union and our *chief pilot* have told us to do.

And we need to watch for shark posters and unusual activity.

Donít forget the ďSPA ChockersĒ website had a role in their injunction as well.

symbian simian
03-16-2018, 11:34 AM
NK guy.
We were pretty much told by the union part of the reason we lost dropping reserve days was because of people refusing to pick up open time during the meltdown. The company showed the mediator historical versus current rates of daily open time transactions and pictures of reserve pilots who had checkerboarded their schedule. IMO our efforts to derail the operation did not improve our chat but made it worse, and the only reason we finally got our chat was because the company needed it to put in a new aircraft order. I did not pick up open time last may/June, I wore all the lanyards, but I think in hindsight we should definitely have avoided naming/shaming the chokers.

Shrek
03-17-2018, 07:13 AM
NK guy.
We were pretty much told by the union part of the reason we lost dropping reserve days was because of people refusing to pick up open time during the meltdown. The company showed the mediator historical versus current rates of daily open time transactions and pictures of reserve pilots who had checkerboarded their schedule. IMO our efforts to derail the operation did not improve our chat but made it worse, and the only reason we finally got our chat was because the company needed it to put in a new aircraft order. I did not pick up open time last may/June, I wore all the lanyards, but I think in hindsight we should definitely have avoided naming/shaming the chokers.
Or at the very least not put names on the web.
Before that effort a call over to the UAL MEC would have warned you about forum usage/creation and TROs :)

At least the TRO is gone and you have a new contract (congrats btw) to build on in the future.

JBLU guys.......hang in there - the FIRST union contract is always the hardest.....let the MEC speak for you and let the process work.

symbian simian
03-17-2018, 09:42 AM
NK guy.
We were pretty much told by the union part of the reason we lost dropping reserve days was because of people refusing to pick up open time during the meltdown. The company showed the mediator historical versus current rates of daily open time transactions and pictures of reserve pilots who had checkerboarded their schedule. IMO our efforts to derail the operation did not improve our chat but made it worse, and the only reason we finally got our chat was because the company needed it to put in a new aircraft order. I did not pick up open time last may/June, I wore all the lanyards, but I think in hindsight we should definitely have avoided naming/shaming the chokers.

Canít edit anymore:
Chat = contract
Thanks autocorrect

queue
03-17-2018, 02:34 PM
Or at the very least not put names on the web.
Before that effort a call over to the UAL MEC would have warned you about forum usage/creation and TROs :)

At least the TRO is gone and you have a new contract (congrats btw) to build on in the future.

JBLU guys.......hang in there - the FIRST union contract is always the hardest.....let the MEC speak for you and let the process work.



And it better be perfect to JB pilots’ demands or it will be voted down.

No compromises.

No false arguments:
- it’s our first contract
- we may get nothing better
- if we get this one through, we can improve it later on.
- it’s much better than what we had before
- it’s pretty good for a company this size
And so on....

The market is at historic highs. If you don’t get it now, you might never. We are professionals demanding professional pay.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Shrek
03-17-2018, 02:45 PM
And it better be perfect to JB pilotsí demands or it will be voted down.

No compromises.

No false arguments:
- itís our first contract
- we may get nothing better
- if we get this one through, we can improve it later on.
- itís much better than what we had before
- itís pretty good for a company this size
And so on....

The market is at historic highs. If you donít get it now, you might never. We are professionals demanding professional pay.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

So your view of ďperfectĒ is exactly the same as every other pilot at JetBlue? I never insinuated to settle for anything less than you deserve.........just to shine a light on the first contract on the property is a big one.
All thrust and no vector come to mind.....

queue
03-17-2018, 03:15 PM
So your view of ďperfectĒ is exactly the same as every other pilot at JetBlue? I never insinuated to settle for anything less than you deserve.........just to shine a light on the first contract on the property is a big one.
All thrust and no vector come to mind.....

Sorry wasnít meaning to target you.

Nevertheless, many BJ pilots would settle for Robinís imported endangered species leftovers.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Shrek
03-17-2018, 10:04 PM
Understood......... hope the 50%+1 don’t fall for a substandard TA