Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Regional Industry Updates


Inop2
03-05-2018, 03:10 PM
Passing along what appears to be a great alternative for Envoy FOís on the west coast concerned about the forced upgrade and subsequent long commute to LGA to be a captain. From my understanding Horizon Air is offering the 175, a nice sign on bonus and a 3 year flow to Alaska Airlines. A real flow. In the interview you meet with the Horizon folks than interview with an Alaska Airlines representative for approval and your seniority number at Alaska. Itís a 3 year flow. Thereís some great guys here that have an uncertain future at Envoy and this sounds worth further investigation. If anyone goes through the process please post details.


UncreativeUser
03-05-2018, 04:45 PM
Honestly who cares about a flow anyways people have been complaining about it just apply then


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Inop2
03-05-2018, 05:22 PM
Honestly who cares about a flow anyways people have been complaining about it just apply then

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The 3 year flow at Horizon looks like a great deal but look into the details and please advise. The response indicates...Envoys flow is pretty dead for anyone looking at Envoy now or hired in the last several months or so but getting in early at Horizon should pay dividends


jshoneycutt
03-05-2018, 06:45 PM
Horizon to Alaska: 3 years
GoJet to Spirit: 2 years
CommutAir to United: 3 years
PSA and Piedmont even say theyíve got Envoy beat.

If flow is in your equation for prospective airlines, I believe Envoy is in the best position to keep a sustainable flow. Only thing is, management needs to make a firm commitment to the flow.

All these other airlines you need to ask yourself what does any company look like whose workforce turns over in 2-4 years? Especially an airline. What happens when your captains have less jet time than piston time? Do you suppose you are walking into your regional airline at the peak of your aviator abilities, or that you yet have a LOT to learn? Who do you want to leave from? captains who upgraded at 1,000 hrs, or captains who spent at least 2-3 years first learning from experienced captains? Yeah, itís all about getting seniority at a legacy... but donít get so excited to find the magic formula to beat the system.

UncreativeUser
03-05-2018, 07:00 PM
The 3 year flow at Horizon looks like a great deal but look into the details and please advise. The response indicates...Envoys flow is pretty dead for anyone looking at Envoy now or hired in the last several months or so but getting in early at Horizon should pay dividends



Right thatís why Iím not taking it into consideration any more. I believe that Envoy still isnít a bad place to work giving that upgrade times are very short (horizons are 2-2.5 years) and they have a guaranteed interview program which is probably just as worthless as Endeavors.

I think all the flow/guaranteed programs are just there to get a MASSIVE amount of pilots to their perspective legacies so that the legacies are in control of how many people they want to an exact amount. Basically like picking out candy in a candy store.

So, unless this is wrong thinking, Iíve been looking at regional airlines based off of their base locations, pay, and upgrade time. Unless that is flawed thinking for someone thatís looking to apply for a regional soon?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jamesthunder
03-05-2018, 07:02 PM
If anything this is great news for us. If other airlines have flow times, suddenly our nine year flow isn't the best on the block anymore.

Otterbox
03-05-2018, 11:43 PM
Horizon to Alaska: 3 years
GoJet to Spirit: 2 years
CommutAir to United: 3 years
PSA and Piedmont even say they’ve got Envoy beat.

If flow is in your equation for prospective airlines, I believe Envoy is in the best position to keep a sustainable flow. Only thing is, management needs to make a firm commitment to the flow.

All these other airlines you need to ask yourself what does any company look like whose workforce turns over in 2-4 years? Especially an airline. What happens when your captains have less jet time than piston time? Do you suppose you are walking into your regional airline at the peak of your aviator abilities, or that you yet have a LOT to learn? Who do you want to leave from? captains who upgraded at 1,000 hrs, or captains who spent at least 2-3 years first learning from experienced captains? Yeah, it’s all about getting seniority at a legacy... but don’t get so excited to find the magic formula to beat the system.

Horizon offers a garaunteed interview to Alaska, not a no interview flow through. There are probably other strings attached.
GoJet offers an interview with Spirit and a transition with some strings attached.
CommutAir CPP involves both the Hogan and a United interview and then a final review prior to going to United... all three are major hurdles that stop the progress for folks.

No airlines outside of the AA Wholly Owned currently offer no interview flow through agreements. As for length that always seems to turn into a cripple fight so needless to say all of the flows at the AA Wholly Owned regionals are long enough that every pilot should have their apps out to the majors and only be using the flow as a backup career plan.

SilentLurker
03-06-2018, 06:29 AM
Horizon offers a garaunteed interview to Alaska, not a no interview flow through. There are probably other strings attached.
GoJet offers an interview with Spirit and a transition with some strings attached.
CommutAir CPP involves both the Hogan and a United interview and then a final review prior to going to United... all three are major hurdles that stop the progress for folks.

No airlines outside of the AA Wholly Owned currently offer no interview flow through agreements. As for length that always seems to turn into a cripple fight so needless to say all of the flows at the AA Wholly Owned regionals are long enough that every pilot should have their apps out to the majors and only be using the flow as a backup career plan.



Wrong about Horizon. FOR CURRENT aspirants and NHís the Horizon interview is done in conjunction with , or as the Alaska Airline interview. You are correct for those on property at Horizon who did not do the interview with Alaska segment, they will be granted a separate interview with Alaska. At least thatís how itís been for a while. Except CEO Tilden at Alaska is finally opening the doors to Horizon. Go read back on the Horizon threads, high pass rate. No stiff-arming.

Interviews are great, you can weed out bad apples and asshead future captains. Nobody wants to fly a 4 day trip with ďin-personable poor charactersĒ. The flying part is easy. Interviews are great. Personality test even better, Riddle guys hate those, and often sound entitled to a mainline job.

Edited: Horizon-Alaska seems now to be a true flow, and a much quicker flow projection than Envoy. Horizonís pilot group is much smaller than Envoys, and with perhaps an equal number of lifers. Flow projection gives the advantage to Horizon as a clear winner for industry flow. But it new so weíll have to see how it develops.

Otterbox
03-06-2018, 06:37 AM
Wrong about Horizon. FOR CURRENT aspirants and NHís itís done in conjunction with ďasĒ the Alaska Airline interview. You are correct for those on property at Horizon who did not do the interview with Alaska segment, they will be granted an interview with Alaska.

First of all, nothing wrong with an interview, you can weed away some bad apples, and asshead future captains Nobody wants to fly a 4 day trip with. Flying part is easy. Interviews are great. Personality test even better, Riddle guys hate those.

Horizon-Alaska is a true FLOW, and a quick one now at that. Not just a guaranteed interview. Horizonís pilot group is much smaller than Envoys, with perhaps an equal number of lifers. Flow percentage goes to Horizon as the winner.

Again, Alaska CEO Tilden is finally opening the doors to Horizon, a new hire at Horizon will flow much quicker than a new hire at Envoy.

Funny, itís only listed as an interview program on their website, not a guaranteed flow through, and gives no additional information about this program.
So what happens to the folks that fail the Alaska interview?

Everyone likes to use the term flow to bait applicants to coming on property but once again, the only regionals with no-interview flow throughs are the American Airlines Wholly Owned Regionals.

SilentLurker
03-06-2018, 07:44 AM
Funny, itís only listed as an interview program on their website, not a guaranteed flow through, and gives no additional information about this program.

So what happens to the folks that fail the Alaska interview?



Everyone likes to use the term flow to bait applicants to coming on property but once again, the only regionals with no-interview flow throughs are the American Airlines Wholly Owned Regionals.



Itís not hard. Itís just one or two addition process at CommutAir /AirWisconsin with the CPP. Hogan Test is done well before you start class, but then the interview right after training is completed. I believe thatís how it works for Air Wisconsin also.

If you fail the Hogan/score low, donít go to Class. Call and say no thanks. From what Iíve read and spoken to a mentor their about, the Hogan Test is the maker or breaker. The United CPP interview after training is more of a face to face/HR deal than full blown interview. Overall if Hogan is good, the United interview has a high pass rate. If u fail or do badly on Hogan, you can retake it & also the United Interview months later. Large majority are successful first time. Some fail Hogan and pass it later. Seem easy overall. Sounds harder than it really is. Process weeds certain people out (those who fear applying themselves).

Also overall pay (first year & CA) pay rates at Horizon, Commutair, AirWisconsin, Republic, Endeavor, are far better than overall pay rates and compensation plan, soft pay, and QOL, than AA WO). The other carriers have caught up.

ďGuaranteed Job at AmericanĒ is NOT guaranteed. After the Protected Pilots flow, THE REST of us do not have the same flow protections they do.

This is not being discussed. It should.

Blackhawk
03-08-2018, 05:36 AM
Horizon to Alaska: 3 years
GoJet to Spirit: 2 years
CommutAir to United: 3 years
PSA and Piedmont even say theyíve got Envoy beat.

If flow is in your equation for prospective airlines, I believe Envoy is in the best position to keep a sustainable flow. Only thing is, management needs to make a firm commitment to the flow.

All these other airlines you need to ask yourself what does any company look like whose workforce turns over in 2-4 years? Especially an airline. What happens when your captains have less jet time than piston time? Do you suppose you are walking into your regional airline at the peak of your aviator abilities, or that you yet have a LOT to learn? Who do you want to leave from? captains who upgraded at 1,000 hrs, or captains who spent at least 2-3 years first learning from experienced captains? Yeah, itís all about getting seniority at a legacy... but donít get so excited to find the magic formula to beat the system.

Man, if you need a flow to Spirit...

Pedro4President
03-08-2018, 10:45 AM
Man, if you need a flow to Spirit...

Agreed however with this new TA you would be a fool to pass on it. Granted some guys will for personal reasons and I get that. Looking long term it seems like a good stepping stone to go to the majors.

Blackhawk
03-08-2018, 11:49 AM
Agreed however with this new TA you would be a fool to pass on it. Granted some guys will for personal reasons and I get that. Looking long term it seems like a good stepping stone to go to the majors.

I wasn't bashing Spirit, just the fact that at this point you would need a flow to get there.

Pedro4President
03-08-2018, 11:55 AM
I wasn't bashing Spirit, just the fact that at this point you would need a flow to get there.

Yeah I got what you meant.

I was just remembering how people were bashing the spirit flow and passing it up. I even laughed at it to begin with. Now it look pretty attractive.

jshoneycutt
03-08-2018, 05:22 PM
ďGuaranteed Job at AmericanĒ is NOT guaranteed. After the Protected Pilots flow, THE REST of us do not have the same flow protections they do.

This is not being discussed. It should.

Guaranteed... eventually :-)

You are right. It cracked me up in recruitment how they talked about Envoy getting 50% of AA new hire slots and then changed topics before we could ask about the two other groups of pilots and those calculations. I ran them and decided it is build as an 8-year flow. Then consider all the pilots who decide not to flow or pursue other airlines, and the hiring trends... I am still working my way through the contract and will eventually get to the real language of the flow to get a better idea. But it's murky.

I am glad I came to Envoy because American just always seemed the right fit to me. Having spoken to people on the front end at AA they say AA is only looking at flow and military (whether recent or prior to 121 world).

NoValueAviator
03-11-2018, 08:14 AM
The contempt of civilian pilots expressed from all sides by major airlines hurts my fee-fees. Besides 20-20 uncorrected, what is it that they feel I lack?