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View Full Version : Air Wisconsin: Not for Newbies


CessnaGril
03-05-2018, 05:20 PM
Any one new to the airline industry; consider starting somewhere else.

You will have some surprises in training, and may not be retained by the company :

- Significant failure rate . 6 -10 out of last few classes ( seems to be students new to 121, or those who have been away from flying for an extended period.)

- inconsistent training in sim.
- long delays between extra sim sessions.
- huge variation in level of difficulty on orals / checkrides.
- Inconsistent training on IOE. diff. level of expectations ,
different techniques taught, subjective standards.
- LCA's intentionally causing extra stress, because they feel like it.

The company has hired very experienced pilots in the past, and some LCA's expect you to fly at the level of an experienced 121 pilot.

If you accept an offer, be prepared.


StrykerB21
03-05-2018, 06:07 PM
Doesnt sound like the Air Wisconsin Ive been working at but ok.

Otterbox
03-05-2018, 11:52 PM
Any one new to the airline industry; consider starting somewhere else.

You will have some surprises in training, and may not be retained by the company :

- Significant failure rate . 6 -10 out of last few classes ( seems to be students new to 121, or those who have been away from flying for an extended period.)

- inconsistent training in sim.
- long delays between extra sim sessions.
- huge variation in level of difficulty on orals / checkrides.
- Inconsistent training on IOE. diff. level of expectations ,
different techniques taught, subjective standards.
- LCA's intentionally causing extra stress, because they feel like it.

The company has hired very experienced pilots in the past, and some LCA's expect you to fly at the level of an experienced 121 pilot.

If you accept an offer, be prepared.

As with most regionals, the failure rate is probably indicative of the quality/experience of applicants theyíre receiving vs the actual training program changing. AWAC has always been known to have a high bar set for training.

Transitioning from props to jets, especially from piston props to jets, is a big step. 1500hrs doesnít magically make everyone ready to be jet pilots, folks probably should do more research into airline training programs and chose an airline that will help them succeed in training for their first 121 gig instead of letting it be a dice roll. They can always leave down the road to an airline thatís a better fit after theyíve gained some experience.


Grumbletrousers
03-06-2018, 03:08 AM
Your account is less than one day old and you immediately start a disparaging and inflammatory thread. Which leads me to believe you either:

1) Were paid to post this.

2) Were lazy during training and failed due to your own incompetence.

Either way your facts are misleading and your troll game is weak. Try asking Billyho for some troll tips (heís pretty good).

Paladin145
03-06-2018, 03:24 AM
Your account is less than one day old and you immediately start a disparaging and inflammatory thread. Which leads me to believe you either:

1) Were paid to post this.

2) Were lazy during training and failed due to your own incompetence.

Either way your facts are misleading and your troll game is weak. Try asking Billyho for some troll tips (heís pretty good).
Nothing disparaging about it. Wisconsin is a great place to fly. Just not good for your first 121. Newbies should know the facts.

The fact that the company sent someone into the sim who had not touched an airplane in 17 years, and never saw glass before says it all. This person only made it to sim 5.

They will hire as many people as they can, whether they think they can get through or not. Not sure why. On one hand the company needs to hire ,and grow. But in training, they have some folks that are used to days of hiring 5,000 hour pilots, that were already rock solid. These newbies are better off with a company that recruits non 121 pilots, like Endeavor, or Republic.

StrykerB21
03-06-2018, 04:11 AM
I'd rather not fly with someone that doesn't know the limitations and can't perform to ATP standards in the sim. If you can't hack it that's no ones fault but your own. Grow up.

pitchtrim
03-06-2018, 04:23 AM
Perhaps flying people safely from A to B isn't for everyone. Some people aren't cut out for it.

DarkSideMoon
03-06-2018, 04:31 AM
I'd rather not fly with someone that doesn't know the limitations and can't perform to ATP standards in the sim. If you can't hack it that's no ones fault but your own. Grow up.

There's a difference between not meeting ATP standards and getting jerked around because different LCA's and instructors have different methods/standards, which is the crux of the original poster's argument.

Paladin145
03-06-2018, 04:52 AM
I'd rather not fly with someone that doesn't know the limitations and can't perform to ATP standards in the sim. If you can't hack it that's no ones fault but your own. Grow up.
Agreed.

Not sure why Wisconsin has you do their strange stall recovery technique, exactly on altitude, exactly on speed. One senior LCA said, " if you see your trend vector going above 200KIAS as your are leveling out, go to F.I."
WTF! You just recovered from a stall, were in a low energy state, and he wants you to go back to F.I., so you can be low energy again? It is not supposed to be a precision manuever.

"6. Regains control of the airplane and recovers to maneuvering speed and flight path appropriate for the airplane's configuration without exceeding the airplane's limitations or losing excessive altitude consistent with the airplane's performance capabilities. This should include reducing pitch attitude as necessary, reducing bank angle and adding power (no particular order implied!) to recover to missed approach or cruise configuration, airspeed and altitude. Some altitude loss is expected during the recovery, but re-establishment of controlled flight is paramount.
Note: Evaluation criteria for a recovery from an approach to stall should not mandate a predetermined value for altitude loss and should not mandate maintaining altitude during recovery. Valid evaluation criteria must take into account the multitude of external (such as density altitude) and internal variables (ie. airplane mass, drag configuration and powerplant response time) which affect the recovery altitude.
7. Demonstrates smooth, positive control during entry, approach to a stall, and recovery."

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/atp_pts.pdf

42ER
03-06-2018, 07:20 AM
Any one new to the airline industry; consider starting somewhere else.

You will have some surprises in training, and may not be retained by the company :

- Significant failure rate . 6 -10 out of last few classes ( seems to be students new to 121, or those who have been away from flying for an extended period.)

- inconsistent training in sim.
- long delays between extra sim sessions.
- huge variation in level of difficulty on orals / checkrides.
- Inconsistent training on IOE. diff. level of expectations ,
different techniques taught, subjective standards.
- LCA's intentionally causing extra stress, because they feel like it.

The company has hired very experienced pilots in the past, and some LCA's expect you to fly at the level of an experienced 121 pilot.

If you accept an offer, be prepared.

Last airplane I touch before going into sim was a C150, and yet I finish within the training footprints. Iím not saying that I passed it with ease, but I think it does depends on what you put in.

Paladin145
03-06-2018, 08:09 AM
Perhaps flying people safely from A to B isn't for everyone. Some people aren't cut out for it.
I agree 100 % . The job is about safety.
The Original Post is about inconsistent training, which takes away from safety.

If any of the above posters have been at the company more than one year, then give feedback to the training department. The rest of us have to remain quiet, except on forums. The post also tells new pilots what to expect. If some of these pilots don't make it through training, it does not mean they " aren't cut out for it." It may mean that they are not cut out for probably the toughest regional airline training in the U.S. without any previous turbine time.

Like I said before. The company should add a sim check to the interview, to make sure they hire pilots whose current skills mesh with their training. It saves $ and sim time ( less extra sims needed in training), and saves peoples careers.

I know other Wisconsin pilots want to make sure enough pilots take offers, and this type of post may not help. So I understand your hostility. In my opinion, many pilots will still apply , and will do well. It is a great company, with the largest hiring bonus. I just see no reason to throw some of these new hires into training that is over their heads.

OT35
03-06-2018, 09:01 AM
Airwis is my first airline. I went from flying a C172 to the jet. Was it hard? Extremely, but I studied systems, the IAC, and sat in front of that damn flow poster til I saw it in my sleep. On my type ride I went around 3 times on the same approach and still passed on the first try. Moral of the story is AirWis is fair but nobody is going to just give you a type and I'm in no way gods gift to aviation. Play the game, get off OE, and lay low for your first year. After that, feel free to complain.

StrykerB21
03-06-2018, 01:03 PM
I agree 100 % . The job is about safety.
The Original Post is about inconsistent training, which takes away from safety.

If any of the above posters have been at the company more than one year, then give feedback to the training department. The rest of us have to remain quiet, except on forums. The post also tells new pilots what to expect. If some of these pilots don't make it through training, it does not mean they " aren't cut out for it." It may mean that they are not cut out for probably the toughest regional airline training in the U.S. without any previous turbine time.

Like I said before. The company should add a sim check to the interview, to make sure they hire pilots whose current skills mesh with their training. It saves $ and sim time ( less extra sims needed in training), and saves peoples careers.

I know other Wisconsin pilots want to make sure enough pilots take offers, and this type of post may not help. So I understand your hostility. In my opinion, many pilots will still apply , and will do well. It is a great company, with the largest hiring bonus. I just see no reason to throw some of these new hires into training that is over their heads.

Send me a PM with some specific experiences and I can see about bringing it to the attention of the appropriate people.

deadstick35
03-06-2018, 01:32 PM
Agreed.

Not sure why Wisconsin has you do their strange stall recovery technique, exactly on altitude, exactly on speed. One senior LCA said, " if you see your trend vector going above 200KIAS as your are leveling out, go to F.I."
WTF! You just recovered from a stall, were in a low energy state, and he wants you to go back to F.I., so you can be low energy again? It is not supposed to be a precision manuever.

"6. Regains control of the airplane and recovers to maneuvering speed and flight path appropriate for the airplane's configuration without exceeding the airplane's limitations or losing excessive altitude consistent with the airplane's performance capabilities. This should include reducing pitch attitude as necessary, reducing bank angle and adding power (no particular order implied!) to recover to missed approach or cruise configuration, airspeed and altitude. Some altitude loss is expected during the recovery, but re-establishment of controlled flight is paramount.
Note: Evaluation criteria for a recovery from an approach to stall should not mandate a predetermined value for altitude loss and should not mandate maintaining altitude during recovery. Valid evaluation criteria must take into account the multitude of external (such as density altitude) and internal variables (ie. airplane mass, drag configuration and powerplant response time) which affect the recovery altitude.
7. Demonstrates smooth, positive control during entry, approach to a stall, and recovery."

https://www.faa.gov/training_testing/testing/test_standards/media/atp_pts.pdf



Now we know where the Colgan training dept ended up. Letís talk negative habit transfer. Jeez. Whatís the procedure if you stall the airplane (not the sim) on short final? Hold Vref and that altitude?

10 some-odd years ago, Air Wisc was desperately short of CAís and focused on that at the expense of FO training. The OPís scenario is plausible.

On another point, and if I already asked you this I apologize, where did you pickup ďPaladin?Ē

prex8390
03-06-2018, 02:04 PM
Ill agree with the orals part big time. You can have someone like GP and talk about motorcycles for 45 minutes and call it good or have CM and have a 4 hour oral.

Definitely massive differences in standards and check rides.

Paladin145
03-06-2018, 02:19 PM
Now we know where the Colgan training dept ended up. Letís talk negative habit transfer. Jeez. Whatís the procedure if you stall the airplane (not the sim) on short final? Hold Vref and that altitude?

10 some-odd years ago, Air Wisc was desperately short of CAís and focused on that at the expense of FO training. The OPís scenario is plausible.

On another point, and if I already asked you this I apologize, where did you pickup ďPaladin?Ē
I try to never take lightly a deadly accident, referring to Colgan training.
Wisconsin has some AMAZING instructors. There are some long term LCA's that can co-opt some techniques, and train it their way. Some of them need some supervision.

pitchtrim
03-06-2018, 03:24 PM
Ill agree with the orals part big time. You can have someone like GP and talk about motorcycles for 45 minutes and call it good or have CM and have a 4 hour oral.

Definitely massive differences in standards and check rides.

I always just study for a thorough oral and hope I get GP. GP will occasionally put people through the ringer too. Never found CM to be that difficult.

UhOhItsTheFiveO
03-06-2018, 03:47 PM
If the training is so difficult... what kind of advice would y'all sincerely give those trying to make the transition from CFI to 121 or a different job with no turbine experience? I have seen other forums where people mentioned digging into the Turbine Pilot's Flight Manual. Any other recommendations?

prex8390
03-06-2018, 05:58 PM
If the training is so difficult... what kind of advice would y'all sincerely give those trying to make the transition from CFI to 121 or a different job with no turbine experience? I have seen other forums where people mentioned digging into the Turbine Pilot's Flight Manual. Any other recommendations?

Donít study ahead. Study what they give you. Donít be the lone wolf who sits in his room at night. Make study groups and do the study guides together. Take your studies serious, about a few hours a night but also have fun on the weekends. Downtown ATW is hella fun. For sims, know your profiles to a T. Before you even show up to sims. Stone cold down. That will make life much easier.

Like a few people have said, tho it has been a few years since i was at AW, sounds like the training department is still kinda the same unfortunately. Itís pretty inconsistent with that youíll get or expect. Some instructors just yap your ear off about his wife and how they met in the marines, others are super serious and grind you day in and day out. Overall just be prepared and know everything they give you. Iím sure GPís ďoral guideĒ is still floating around

GearDwn
03-06-2018, 06:36 PM
Donít study ahead. Study what they give you. Donít be the lone wolf who sits in his room at night. Make study groups and do the study guides together. Take your studies serious, about a few hours a night but also have fun on the weekends. Downtown ATW is hella fun. For sims, know your profiles to a T. Before you even show up to sims. Stone cold down. That will make life much easier.



Like a few people have said, tho it has been a few years since i was at AW, sounds like the training department is still kinda the same unfortunately. Itís pretty inconsistent with that youíll get or expect. Some instructors just yap your ear off about his wife and how they met in the marines, others are super serious and grind you day in and day out. Overall just be prepared and know everything they give you. Iím sure GPís ďoral guideĒ is still floating around



If someone has the oral guide please pm me so I can get this. I start the ATP/CTP on the 18th so busy with Shephard Air now but would love to have it when it is time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

UhOhItsTheFiveO
03-06-2018, 06:49 PM
Donít study ahead. Study what they give you. Donít be the lone wolf who sits in his room at night. Make study groups and do the study guides together. Take your studies serious, about a few hours a night but also have fun on the weekends. Downtown ATW is hella fun. For sims, know your profiles to a T. Before you even show up to sims. Stone cold down. That will make life much easier.

Like a few people have said, tho it has been a few years since i was at AW, sounds like the training department is still kinda the same unfortunately. Itís pretty inconsistent with that youíll get or expect. Some instructors just yap your ear off about his wife and how they met in the marines, others are super serious and grind you day in and day out. Overall just be prepared and know everything they give you. Iím sure GPís ďoral guideĒ is still floating around

Thanks Prex, I appreciate it

PowderFinger
03-07-2018, 04:02 AM
Any one new to the airline industry; consider starting somewhere else.

You will have some surprises in training, and may not be retained by the company :

- Significant failure rate . 6 -10 out of last few classes ( seems to be students new to 121, or those who have been away from flying for an extended period.)

- inconsistent training in sim.
- long delays between extra sim sessions.
- huge variation in level of difficulty on orals / checkrides.
- Inconsistent training on IOE. diff. level of expectations ,
different techniques taught, subjective standards.
- LCA's intentionally causing extra stress, because they feel like it.

The company has hired very experienced pilots in the past, and some LCA's expect you to fly at the level of an experienced 121 pilot.

If you accept an offer, be prepared.

Bet you fit right in with Mesa.

stroopwaffle
03-07-2018, 05:36 AM
Before the 1500 hour rule, a healthy amount of pilots got hired and made it through training with 750 hours or less at hire date in a smaller training footprint.

If you study the minimum or just the gouges floating around, youíre gonna have a bad experience.

Inconsistency with orals and LCA standards? Maybe, but when flying 50 pax all day long, just getting by doesnít cut it anywhere. Study like youíre getting the hardest oral every time you go in. You never know when the examiners are going to swap schedules.

Cooperate to graduate, then you can f-up all you want on the line (until captains start to complain).

FlyPKP
03-07-2018, 07:05 AM
Sounds like someone expected this to be handed to them on a silver platter. Air Wisconsin still has high standards and would rather send you packing than send you out on the line and be a liability. There's a lot of that, I deserve this attitude, and if you think you can coast through training here, you are mistaken. Study what they tell you, don't expect a free ride. Maybe don't go to the bars so much in Appleton? And you'll be fine. Odd how the other alleged 60% still pass. They put in the effort.

Day4mx
03-07-2018, 07:13 AM
Talking to a buddy of mine who does interviews here...he said he asked a candidate how he would determine the missed approach point on a plate. His answer was...id just feel it out. Those are the people we dont want. Those are the people you dont want flying your family around in lousy weather.

Grumbletrousers
03-07-2018, 01:26 PM
Talking to a buddy of mine who does interviews here...he said he asked a candidate how he would determine the missed approach point on a plate. His answer was...id just feel it out. Those are the people we dont want. Those are the people you dont want flying your family around in lousy weather.

If this was a genuine answer from an instrument rated candidate during an interview I canít imagine what they would do as PIC with no one looking.

Iím with Stryker, Iíd rather not fly with someone like this.

gtr7791
03-07-2018, 01:46 PM
Doesnt sound like the Air Wisconsin Ive been working at but ok.

This is EXACTLY the place I work at... You must be a, senior, mid-west living, line holder. I'm really sorry you are so disconnected StyrkerB21. :eek: Go back to sleep.

BigWillyCapt
03-07-2018, 04:50 PM
As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle. I haven't seen any reliable statistics on wash-out so I can't comment on the numbers. Does ZW have a tough training department? Possibly. And I agree with some of the others above. If we don't feel you are up to the standard, then you will not progress. We don't want substandard pilots flying our airplanes around. I will say that some pilots are easier to train and progress more quickly then others. If they have good self awareness, they can almost teach themselves with some guidance. There are others who can't seem to progress no matter how much help they get. (And some in the middle obviously). I have flown with pilots on trip 5+ who still fly like it's trip 1 or 2.
I also agree there is some variation in the instructors. But I suspect that is the case everywhere. I have had good and less than optimal experiences with the same sim examiner. Not ideal, but that's life.

If you are new and just starting out, learn all you can from your instructor and prioritize what you study. Nothing puts the examiner in a bad mood more than when the pilot can't spit out even the most basic limitations or memory items. For the CPT and Sim as was mentioned, study the flows/call-outs and checklists. If you can't remember what to say it makes it harder to fly the plane/sim. My partner and I hung the posters and chair flew together almost daily and I did on my own too. Use the study groups for memorizing facts and systems knowledge.

I have signed off plenty of guys who came straight out of a 172/Seminole into the RJ and they did fine, so it's possible.

Air Wisconsin is a great regional to work at and has been good to me. A great pilot group. But it's not handed to you.

FODhopper
03-07-2018, 08:23 PM
This is EXACTLY the place I work at... You must be a, senior, mid-west living, line holder. I'm really sorry you are so disconnected StyrkerB21. :eek: Go back to sleep.

As a former AWAC instructor, I'll second most of the others who were or are here. The training is tough but fair. I gave the same advice I've seen repeated here: Study what they tell you to study, and they do tell you.

I've given to students, for take home study, the exact oral questions that the the Chief IP and a senior APD consistently use the most and yet the next day when I give a mock oral, some folks can't answer some of the simplest wrote responses required.

While there will always be a few bad experiences, in general, if you are moaning about the training experience at AWAC then just don't apply for a mainline job because they are looking for people who achieve no matter the obstacles.

I'll say the same for 9E, another strong training department that gives you every opportunity to succeed if you want to succeed. But there are standards.

BFMthisA10
03-08-2018, 12:21 AM
Not sure why Wisconsin has you do their strange stall recovery technique, exactly on altitude, exactly on speed. One senior LCA said, " if you see your trend vector going above 200KIAS as your are leveling out, go to F.I."
WTF! You just recovered from a stall, were in a low energy state, and he wants you to go back to F.I., so you can be low energy again? It is not supposed to be a precision manuever.
This is 100% NOT what is currently being taught, nor is it aligned with current ZW training publications and profiles.
If this technique was in vogue at some point previously, then I would agree: WTF!

StrykerB21
03-08-2018, 04:52 AM
This is EXACTLY the place I work at... You must be a, senior, mid-west living, line holder. I'm really sorry you are so disconnected StyrkerB21. :eek: Go back to sleep.

Ha, I wish. I spent years on reserve. I was getting the same junior man calls as everyone else. I asked the OP to PM me with specific examples of this injustice and my inbox is empty. Maybe you would?

Courtney5501
03-12-2018, 06:23 PM
Wow this was interesting to read. I was hired by Air Wisconsin in 2006. With the exception of 3 of us, the entire class was current 121. I was a CFI. Training was difficult, especially the sim, but somehow I flew really well on my check ride and passed without any extra sessions. Next up IOE. My first day I was told by my training captain, ďI donít feel like talking today.Ē Needless to say that wasnít a great start for me having never flown a jet before lol. The two trips went ok. I struggled with visual approaches of all things...learning later that is very common. I was given one extra trip and then asked to resign. This took place over the course of 5 months. Too many long breaks in between. 3 different instructors in the sim...3 different ioe training captains. Oddly enough that first one I had is still there! It was pretty devastating obviously. I quit flying altogether (until a year ago), but life goes on. Iím trying one last time with a different company obviously..I donít blame Air Wisconsin, although Iíve been told By a pilot friend who observed one of my sims I would have been fine with better instruction..my only regret is not getting back on the horse sooner. For me personally, I just wasnít mentally ready back then, and it just wasnít meant to be at that time. Best of luck to everyone!..but if you do fail, donít give up!

CessnaGril
03-13-2018, 03:54 AM
Wow this was interesting to read. I was hired by Air Wisconsin in 2006. With the exception of 3 of us, the entire class was current 121. I was a CFI. Training was difficult, especially the sim, but somehow I flew really well on my check ride and passed without any extra sessions. Next up IOE. My first day I was told by my training captain, ďI donít feel like talking today.Ē Needless to say that wasnít a great start for me having never flown a jet before lol. The two trips went ok. I struggled with visual approaches of all things...learning later that is very common. I was given one extra trip and then asked to resign. This took place over the course of 5 months. Too many long breaks in between. 3 different instructors in the sim...3 different ioe training captains. Oddly enough that first one I had is still there! It was pretty devastating obviously. I quit flying altogether (until a year ago), but life goes on. Iím trying one last time with a different company obviously..I donít blame Air Wisconsin, although Iíve been told By a pilot friend who observed one of my sims I would have been fine with better instruction..my only regret is not getting back on the horse sooner. For me personally, I just wasnít mentally ready back then, and it just wasnít meant to be at that time. Best of luck to everyone!..but if you do fail, donít give up!
My first day I was told by my training captain, “I don’t feel like talking today.” Needless to say that wasn’t a great start for me having never flown a jet before lol.


Translation: The LCA was saying, "I don't feel like doing my job today. My job is already secure. I could not care less about you, or your career. You need to sink, or swim. I just became an LCA because it looks good on my resume, and I don't have a 4 your degree."

Grumbletrousers
03-13-2018, 04:50 AM
My first day I was told by my training captain, ďI donít feel like talking today.Ē Needless to say that wasnít a great start for me having never flown a jet before lol.


Translation: The LCA was saying, "I don't feel like doing my job today. My job is already secure. I could not care less about you, or your career. You need to sink, or swim. I just became an LCA because it looks good on my resume, and I don't have a 4 your degree."

When did you go through AWA new-hire training?

diverdriver2
03-13-2018, 08:34 AM
When did you go through AWA new-hire training?

2006 I believe is what they posted.

Courtney5501
03-13-2018, 09:26 AM
2006 I believe is what they posted.

I wasnít sure if they meant me or Cessna Gril?...🤷🏻*♀️😬

Courtney5501
03-13-2018, 03:41 PM
Not sure if they are meaning me or Cessna gril

Grumbletrousers
03-14-2018, 06:15 AM
Not sure if they are meaning me or Cessna gril


Cessna. You were clear about it.

FlyPKP
03-14-2018, 06:56 AM
I will defend our training and some new hires practices, but I will say, in light of our inability to staff, guaranteed junior mans, there's plenty of other good reasons not to come here. :D

StrykerB21
03-14-2018, 08:40 AM
I will defend our training and some new hires practices, but I will say, in light of our inability to staff, guaranteed junior mans, there's plenty of other good reasons not to come here. :D

Kind of a catch 22. Don't come to awac because the company can't staff. If we could attract the caliber pilot that will actually work hard and study a few hours every night instead of being argumentative with the instructors and drinking at D2 every night our pass rate would be fantastic.

The training departments job isn't to staff the airline though. No one should be coming here or any airline for that matter thinking they can just breeze right through the training. Unfortunately thats the kind of people we've been hiring as of late. Then they wonder why they don't pass and make a spectacle of themselves on the forums.

DarkSideMoon
03-14-2018, 09:29 AM
Kind of a catch 22. Don't come to awac because the company can't staff. If we could attract the caliber pilot that will actually work hard and study a few hours every night instead of being argumentative with the instructors and drinking at D2 every night our pass rate would be fantastic.

The training departments job isn't to staff the airline though. No one should be coming here or any airline for that matter thinking they can just breeze right through the training. Unfortunately thats the kind of people we've been hiring as of late. Then they wonder why they don't pass and make a spectacle of themselves on the forums.

It's kind of adapt or die though. If you aren't getting trainees who can get through the way training is set up they should adjust the methods (not the standards!) to help more people get through. If it takes hand holding, hold some hands. There aren't many qualified candidates anymore, and it's doubtful they're going to be able to compete with the pay at EV or the soft landings/quick upgrade at SKW to pull people from other airlines.

I agree, it should require some effort but the reality of the situation is that there aren't that many people left to choose from and the current staffing situation is going to burn people out quickly.

StrykerB21
03-14-2018, 01:33 PM
It's kind of adapt or die though. If you aren't getting trainees who can get through the way training is set up they should adjust the methods (not the standards!) to help more people get through. If it takes hand holding, hold some hands. There aren't many qualified candidates anymore, and it's doubtful they're going to be able to compete with the pay at EV or the soft landings/quick upgrade at SKW to pull people from other airlines.

I agree, it should require some effort but the reality of the situation is that there aren't that many people left to choose from and the current staffing situation is going to burn people out quickly.

Yeah agreed. They're doing everything they can. Some people are getting as much as 20 to 25 sim sessions if you can believe it. Some are close to a hundred hours of OE. The thing people are struggling with is theres numerous techniques being taught and new hires are confusing technique for procedure.

Name User
03-14-2018, 02:42 PM
Yeah agreed. They're doing everything they can. Some people are getting as much as 20 to 25 sim sessions if you can believe it. Some are close to a hundred hours of OE. The thing people are struggling with is theres numerous techniques being taught and new hires are confusing technique for procedure.

Jesus that is nuts. I'm sorry but if you can't make it through training after 1,500 hours in the allotted 10 sims and two OE trips you have no place in an airliner.

Sorry to ruffle feathers.

pitchtrim
03-14-2018, 03:13 PM
I can understand to a point disliking instructors teaching different methods. Even I get annoyed when I get kudos doing something one way and the next year a slap on the wrist for doing it the same way. That being said I think as professionals people need to be able to have some flexibility and figure it out. You won't fly with the same captain every trip either. Everyone has their own little quirks and we all have had to adapt to get through a week.

DiveAndDrive
03-14-2018, 04:11 PM
I want to maintain a level of privacy for all involved.

But for what it's worth, I now have an idea of the challenges the training department can face. ZW is still in my top 3 for regionals. Yes, I am very worried about the training. That's the biggest drawback I can consistently think of when it comes to ZW.

But I just recently upgraded to captain at my part 135 Caravan operation. Our FOs are very diverse. Some get hired with 250 hours and are stellar. Some have 1000 hours and are very weak. To be honest, I was pretty naive when it came to pilot skill, or lack thereof. As a FO, all of my CA's were excellent.

But in the other seat, I can definitely see the disparity. I let a 400 hour FO that was with the company for two months fly into a class B airport. It was his first time going into a Bravo, first PRM approach, and first time with icing. He was obviously outside his comfort zone, but he did fine.

I had another FO who got hired with damn near quad digit hours and has been with the company for a while, and I had to take the controls from him because he fishtailed all the way through the localizer. His time was built in mostly VFR.

I don't mean to talk smack about anyone. But the point is that I am now a firm believer that it's the quality of hours, not the quantity of hours that matter. I've always known it, but now I've experienced it first hand. I haven't been through a part 121 program yet, I'm not God's gift to aviation, and I don't know it all. But my take away is get out and challenge yourself. Get outside your comfort zone. Don't fly ONLY when it's P6SM SKC. It's not doing you, or the person sitting next to you, any good. Just my two cents.

prex8390
03-15-2018, 05:19 AM
I want to maintain a level of privacy for all involved.

But for what it's worth, I now have an idea of the challenges the training department can face. ZW is still in my top 3 for regionals. Yes, I am very worried about the training. That's the biggest drawback I can consistently think of when it comes to ZW.

But I just recently upgraded to captain at my part 135 Caravan operation. Our FOs are very diverse. Some get hired with 250 hours and are stellar. Some have 1000 hours and are very weak. To be honest, I was pretty naive when it came to pilot skill, or lack thereof. As a FO, all of my CA's were excellent.

But in the other seat, I can definitely see the disparity. I let a 400 hour FO that was with the company for two months fly into a class B airport. It was his first time going into a Bravo, first PRM approach, and first time with icing. He was obviously outside his comfort zone, but he did fine.

I had another FO who got hired with damn near quad digit hours and has been with the company for a while, and I had to take the controls from him because he fishtailed all the way through the localizer. His time was built in mostly VFR.

I don't mean to talk smack about anyone. But the point is that I am now a firm believer that it's the quality of hours, not the quantity of hours that matter. I've always known it, but now I've experienced it first hand. I haven't been through a part 121 program yet, I'm not God's gift to aviation, and I don't know it all. But my take away is get out and challenge yourself. Get outside your comfort zone. Don't fly ONLY when it's P6SM SKC. It's not doing you, or the person sitting next to you, any good. Just my two cents.

Donít psyche yourself out. Keep your confidence high, and be honest with yourself. If you feel youre a decent stick and can handle studying everyday for 4 weeks plus a oral, then youíll probably do fine. Be willing to work with the intructors, donít be a hot head and take their advice. Many people have gotton through this training program easily, itís all about attitude. When i went through i breezed through it no extra sims or LOE because I did the work that was asked of me, but a lot of people show up and head to the leg lamp lounge right after class and wonder why they didnít suceeed. By all means have some fun with your classmates on the weekends, other wise youíll go crazy. But Give 100% when it counts and youíll be fine

DiveAndDrive
03-15-2018, 06:47 AM
How much (and what) would you recommend studying before hand?

StrykerB21
03-15-2018, 07:40 AM
How much (and what) would you recommend studying before hand?

I wouldnt study anything at all. You run the risk of learning something incorrectly and that law of primacy is tough to shake. When you get to indoc you'll get all the materials you'll need and the guidance on exactly what should be learned.

DiveAndDrive
03-15-2018, 07:59 AM
Wow. Thatís crazy for me. I studied for 3 months before I went to ground school on a Caravan. You wouldnít even recommend the Aerosim Checkride CRJ 200 app? I donít have it, but apparently it goes through the entire overhead panel and describes in detail what every switch does.

Day4mx
03-15-2018, 07:59 AM
It's kind of adapt or die though. If you aren't getting trainees who can get through the way training is set up they should adjust the methods (not the standards!) to help more people get through. If it takes hand holding, hold some hands. There aren't many qualified candidates anymore, and it's doubtful they're going to be able to compete with the pay at EV or the soft landings/quick upgrade at SKW to pull people from other airlines.

I agree, it should require some effort but the reality of the situation is that there aren't that many people left to choose from and the current staffing situation is going to burn people out quickly.


Recently heard of a guy who got hired here...they gave him 24 sim sessions. He finally managed to pass a checkride...im assuming by sheer rote memorization rather than any airmanship whatsoever. After 140 hours of ioe he was let go. Theres only so much you can do to adapt to get people through and we are bending over backwards to get people through. At some point you have say you cant with a clean conscience send these guys to the line and have this person behind the controls with someones family in the back paging through Skymall thinking theyre in good hands.

WesternSkies
03-15-2018, 08:07 AM
Sounds like they got a warm-one for life, unless he makes the news.

RabidW0mbat
03-15-2018, 08:17 AM
Is it a diverse age range of those not making it through? IE the younger crowd (25 and below) thinking they can go drink and get by, or something else?

At 34, with a PIC jet type (Citation) and 4 years of military background, I'd like to think I can buckle down and play the game in front of me, so I shouldn't be too psyched out by this thread.

DarkSideMoon
03-15-2018, 08:17 AM
Recently heard of a guy who got hired here...they gave him 24 sim sessions. He finally managed to pass a checkride...im assuming by sheer rote memorization rather than any airmanship whatsoever. After 140 hours of ioe he was let go. Theres only so much you can do to adapt to get people through and we are bending over backwards to get people through. At some point you have say you cant with a clean conscience send these guys to the line and have this person behind the controls with someones family in the back paging through Skymall thinking theyre in good hands.
More sims aren't necessarily what I mean by adapting. It may take changing teaching methods rather than just trying to brute force it with more time. If 15 sims aren't effective 100 sims probably won't be either.

I agree though, standards cannot and should not be lowered.

Courtney5501
03-15-2018, 09:03 AM
More sims aren't necessarily what I mean by adapting. It may take changing teaching methods rather than just trying to brute force it with more time. If 15 sims aren't effective 100 sims probably won't be either.

I agree though, standards cannot and should not be lowered.

Standards definitely shouldnít be lowered! However none of us fits into a box. We all learn in different ways and in different amounts of time. I was never a drinker..in training or otherwise so that wasnít it lol..I studied plenty and aced ground school and my oral. I did well with the things I could control. When it was time for the sim, we had no pre or post briefing in my case which would have been huge! We donít know what we donít know- thatís what the instructors should be there for. I honesty believe I only passed my checkride because a friend who was already flying the crj observed a sessions and gave me some much needed tips. As far as oe, my only struggle was visual approaches. Somewhere I had in my head that descending faster than 800 fpm would be uncomfortable for the passengers🤷🏻*♀️😂 so I kept getting vectors for descent. After my third trip that same friend told me how to use the ďbananaĒ to see where Iíd end up when. I would think that one of my instructors would have told me that? Iím pretty sure with one more trip I would have had it after being armed with that info! I also lacked the ego of a typical pilot though. I lacked confidence. Ultimately, thatís what got me in the end. I didnít feel worthy!..but I was. It was a life learning experience for sure. Iím glad they are giving people more time now..but like someone said before..if you keep doing the same thing that isnít working..you will get the same results. My training captains were burned out. They admitted it. This doesnít help. I had to hand off my blank sheet (of whatever they were supposed to talk to us about in oe each time) to the next one..you know..the one that didnít feel like talking haha.

StrykerB21
03-15-2018, 11:48 AM
Wow. Thatís crazy for me. I studied for 3 months before I went to ground school on a Caravan. You wouldnít even recommend the Aerosim Checkride CRJ 200 app? I donít have it, but apparently it goes through the entire overhead panel and describes in detail what every switch does.

You can if you want to, just be prepared to data dump something that might be different that is taught at Air Wisconsin. Lots of people come from other airlines and are either typed on the airplane or are knowledgeable about it and have a hard time in ground school because of negative transfer. In my opinion its best to start with a clean slate.

diverdriver2
03-15-2018, 05:19 PM
Is it a diverse age range of those not making it through? IE the younger crowd (25 and below) thinking they can go drink and get by, or something else?

At 34, with a PIC jet type (Citation) and 4 years of military background, I'd like to think I can buckle down and play the game in front of me, so I shouldn't be too psyched out by this thread.

Recent flying experience too? You'll be fine.

FODhopper
03-19-2018, 07:17 AM
Wow. Thatís crazy for me. I studied for 3 months before I went to ground school on a Caravan. You wouldnít even recommend the Aerosim Checkride CRJ 200 app? I donít have it, but apparently it goes through the entire overhead panel and describes in detail what every switch does.

Just study the basic Airman stuff: AIM, instrument proc aeromedical. Let AWAC teach you what they want you to know about the airplane. Lots of variants etc.. Then you can go back to AeroSim afterwards and it will help and not interfere with your learning. Having taught the 200 for one airline and then had to learn it for another... It's better to learn it their way first.

Flying101
03-22-2018, 03:57 AM
Nothing disparaging about it. Wisconsin is a great place to fly. Just not good for your first 121. Newbies should know the facts.

The fact that the company sent someone into the sim who had not touched an airplane in 17 years, and never saw glass before says it all. This person only made it to sim 5.

They will hire as many people as they can, whether they think they can get through or not. Not sure why. On one hand the company needs to hire ,and grow. But in training, they have some folks that are used to days of hiring 5,000 hour pilots, that were already rock solid. These newbies are better off with a company that recruits non 121 pilots, like Endeavor, or Republic.

How about using the word ďnew-hireĒ and not ďnewbiesĒ. Hereís some advice for new hires.. follow the training footprint and youíll do just fine. Second piece of advice, talk to someone who currently works at AWAC not someone posting on APC.

FmrPropCapt
03-22-2018, 10:30 AM
Disclaimer, Iím not a AW pilot.

Iíve been through initials at 4 Airlines 2 of which were regionals. 100% pass rate. My first 121was easily the most difficult. But do what the advice given says. Study what they tell you to study. Do not jump ahead unless they tell you to. Should you get a cockpit poster before training learn where everything is not what it does. Start studying flows when you get into systems at night after youíve reviewed the days class. Have your flows DOWN when sim session 1or FTD Starts. Itíll make life a million times easier and, most importantly, youíll probably pass.

IFLYACRJ
03-22-2018, 01:32 PM
Disclaimer, Iím not a AW pilot.



Iíve been through initials at 4 Airlines 2 of which were regionals. 100% pass rate. My first 121was easily the most difficult. But do what the advice given says. Study what they tell you to study. Do not jump ahead unless they tell you to. Should you get a cockpit poster before training learn where everything is not what it does. Start studying flows when you get into systems at night after youíve reviewed the days class. Have your flows DOWN when sim session 1or FTD Starts. Itíll make life a million times easier and, most importantly, youíll probably pass.



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FL2204
03-26-2018, 12:43 PM
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Nice.
With that being said, how many sessions of FTD and How many sessions of sim do we get at start?

T28driver
03-26-2018, 12:53 PM
Nice.
With that being said, how many sessions of FTD and How many sessions of sim do we get at start?

You will have 5 sessions of CPT in front of a paper tiger.

9 sim sessions plus a checkride is standard. Many people are getting 15.

FL2204
03-26-2018, 01:01 PM
You will have 5 sessions of CPT in front of a paper tiger.

9 sim sessions plus a checkride is standard. Many people are getting 15.

Thank you.

FmrPropCapt
03-27-2018, 05:59 PM
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Attitude spot on. If you show you want to learn and play nice with others it'll go a long way



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