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Al Czervik
03-07-2018, 12:12 PM
Flight 20/20? Combining proceedures amongst fleets and revising outdated proceedures and manuals? I hope to see this on the Boeing fleet. Anyone have details?


Floobs
03-07-2018, 12:30 PM
Flight 20/20? Combining proceedures amongst fleets and revising outdated proceedures and manuals? I hope to see this on the Boeing fleet. Anyone have details?

Where did you see that?

Frip
03-07-2018, 01:32 PM
"Careful what ya' wish for" comes to mind...:(


Arado 234
03-07-2018, 02:04 PM
"Careful what ya' wish for" comes to mind...:(

+1000

Filler

flyinawa
03-07-2018, 02:14 PM
Flight 20/20? Combining proceedures amongst fleets and revising outdated proceedures and manuals? I hope to see this on the Boeing fleet. Anyone have details?

This sounds like a fancy way to say “Let’s compromise and do it my way”. REAL professionals should fly the A320 like it’s a DC3. (Eye roll)

Thedude
03-07-2018, 02:53 PM
Does that include waving the gear up and down?!

Saabs
03-07-2018, 03:39 PM
Does that include waving the gear up and down?!

I never noticed that til other people brought it up but I see that a lot now. Along with speed checks, flaps 2.

Al Czervik
03-07-2018, 04:59 PM
From what I have heard it will be a progression more toward the Airbus sop.

A330FoodCritic
03-07-2018, 05:03 PM
From what I have heard it will be a progression more toward the Airbus sop.

I did landings last week and they didn't want us to make some call out because the Boeing guys don't. Was absolutely stupid.

UPTme
03-07-2018, 05:09 PM
Mechanical checklist coming to all fleets!

Floobs
03-07-2018, 08:35 PM
I would just be happy if people wouldn't turn all the screens down during an a/c swap.

Arado 234
03-08-2018, 04:39 AM
I would just be happy if people wouldn't turn all the screens down during an a/c swap.

What's up with that? Those are not CRTs!

EMBFlyer
03-08-2018, 05:18 AM
I would just be happy if people wouldn't turn all the screens down during an a/c swap.

On most fleets (meaning not the coolest, best, most amazing, awesomest, bestest, neatest plane ever built...the Airbus), it's a checklist item.

jcountry
03-08-2018, 06:48 AM
What's up with that? Those are not CRTs!

The bulbs in the DC-3 would burn out a lot.....

A330FoodCritic
03-08-2018, 07:44 AM
What fleet did the 60 knot call out come from?

Thedude
03-08-2018, 08:09 AM
What fleet did the 60 knot call out come from?

Other airlines I worked for, that was a standard call along with assuming that is where the transfer of control would also occur on the landing roll.

I am just gonna be happy when we change the verification process of the FMS. Whomever entered it in the box needs to read it out of the box while the other guy verifies it on paper.

Surprise
03-08-2018, 08:16 AM
Mechanical checklist coming to all fleets!

Having used it for a year now, I have to say I actually kinda like it.

But, that’s the 737. I’m aware that more modern airplanes have electronic checklists. There’s no one size fits all solution.

Sliceback
03-08-2018, 01:16 PM
Hopefully we can rip out the electronic mechanical checklists and reintroduce paper checklists.

And stop saying ‘stable’ and ‘target....’ for just doing our job. Or having to brief who’s flying after it’s already been decided?

Anyone hear about the newest invention in knives? The ones that only cut one way?

Saabs
03-08-2018, 01:27 PM
Hopefully we can rip out the electronic mechanical checklists and reintroduce paper checklists.

And stop saying ‘stable’ and ‘target....’ for just doing our job. Or having to brief who’s flying after it’s already been decided?

Anyone hear about the newest invention in knives? The ones that only cut one way?
I thought the stable and target thing was beyond silly when I got hired at airways - bust supposedly it made their unstable approaches go way down. If it helps that then I’m all for it.

sumwherelse
03-08-2018, 01:38 PM
I would just be happy if people wouldn't turn all the screens down during an a/c swap.

A-f’in-men. When did this become a procedure????

EMBFlyer
03-08-2018, 01:43 PM
Having used it for a year now, I have to say I actually kinda like it.

But, that’s the 737. I’m aware that more modern airplanes have electronic checklists. There’s no one size fits all solution.

Exactly! I'm a fan. I think it reduces workload and enhances situational awareness.

EMBFlyer
03-08-2018, 01:44 PM
A-f’in-men. When did this become a procedure????

It's been a procedure on both Boeing airplanes I've been on since 2014.

beechjetdriver
03-08-2018, 02:59 PM
I would just be happy if people wouldn't turn all the screens down during an a/c swap.

Not that I’m a fan of it, but it is a procedure in Airbus OM VOL 1, section 2.5.15

Al Czervik
03-08-2018, 05:21 PM
And stop saying ‘stable’ and ‘target....’ for just doing our job.

You don’t think we should do things that work?

Arado 234
03-08-2018, 05:46 PM
You don’t think we should do things that work?

Well no! They weren't invented here, so they can't be any good! Dop! Where you been, Al?

aa73
03-08-2018, 05:47 PM
You don’t think we should do things that work?

Exactly. Thank you. Just like the mechanical checklist (long proven to be a huge safety improvement, which is why it is now in electronic form on most aircraft.) And many other LAA procedures that not only “work” but are proven to be safe day in and day out.

Sorry but the constant LUS rants on LAA just get old after awhile. You guys are starting to sound like broken records. Reading some of your stuff, one would think that LUS was the Golden Mecca Standard for all aviation things made in perfection, with LAA crashing a plane once a day.

Arado 234
03-08-2018, 05:50 PM
Exactly. Thank you. Just like the mechanical checklist (long proven to be a huge safety improvement, which is why it is now in electronic form on most aircraft.) And many other LAA procedures that not only “work” but are proven to be safe day in and day out.

Sorry but the constant LUS rants on LAA just get old after awhile. You guys are starting to sound like broken records.

There's more than one way to safely operate an aircraft. It does get annoying when one group thinks that only their procedures are better or superior than others. Even Gann wrote about this attitude in "Fate is the Hunter". And he was AA.

Many of the LUS procedures were developed after 5 terrible years of accidents. Many turned out to be industry-leading. So LUS has a pretty good record as well.

aa73
03-08-2018, 05:56 PM
There's more than one way to safely operate an aircraft. It does get annoying when one group thinks that their procedures are better or superior than others. Even Gann wrote about this attitude in "Fate is the Hunter". And he was AA.

**WHO** is saying that our way is better or superior? I hear that a whole bunch from you guys. And not one person can prove it. In fact when we first got the Airbuses, LAA were the ones that adopted the LUS way to operate it since you guys had way more experience with it. As it should be.

Ernie Gann, really?? You’re quoting from a book talking about the 1940s. News flash, Every airline pilot group was like that back then. Things have changed just a little since then. Yes, even we have.

Look, LAA is far from perfect and Lord knows we do some stuff different (just like ever other airline), but our procedures work and are safe. Otherise, you’d be reading about us in the news a lot more.

When we adopted some LUS things in the past, did you ever see me complaining about it here? No matter how silly I thought it was.... my attitude has always been, “they must have a dang good reason for doing it that way.”

Your life will vastly improve if you adopt that attitude. Trust me.

OKLATEX
03-08-2018, 05:57 PM
Been awhile since I’ve been on a legacy AA Jumpseat. I can’t remember how the mechanical checklist worked but seemed pretty cool.

How does it work? Does it assure the critical items are checked or does it remind you of what checklists are completed, or both? I know our 777s have an Electronic Checklists and guys absolutely love it.

Just curious, and thanks!

aa73
03-08-2018, 06:07 PM
Been awhile since I’ve been on a legacy AA Jumpseat. I can’t remember how the mechanical checklist worked but seemed pretty cool.

How does it work? Does it assure the critical items are checked or does it remind you of what checklists are completed, or both? I know our 777s have an Electronic Checklists and guys absolutely love it.

Just curious, and thanks!

It works just like an electronic checklist... but it’s manual. You call out the items that are lit up, in order, and when they’re read back/confirmed done, you close out the tabs. It’s only for the essential items on the Before TO and Before Landing checklists, everything else is on card stock.

It is a great safety tool.

Name User
03-08-2018, 06:27 PM
On most fleets (meaning not the coolest, best, most amazing, awesomest, bestest, neatest plane ever built...the Airbus), it's a checklist item.

"As required"

On the 80 you turn them off because it's not as heck in the summer.

PRS Guitars
03-08-2018, 06:53 PM
**WHO** is saying that our way is better or superior? I hear that a whole bunch from you guys.

He’s making a good point here. We kept the most important thing from LUS IMO...the JS reservation system. This procedural stuff is mostly “happy” to “glad” kind of changes, and you get used to it quickly, and it usually works.

SheepDogg
03-09-2018, 04:04 AM
Many of the LUS procedures were developed after 5 terrible years of accidents. Many turned out to be industry-leading. So LUS has a pretty good record as well.

I don't think I would be so proud about accidents. Even if they are industry-leading accidents.

Frip
03-09-2018, 04:28 AM
Brief the minimum necessary, OKC day vfr isn't BOG at night in WX.

Call out erroneous, abnormal and inappropriate stuff.

**** about Normal expected everyday stuff.

(Applicable to the 1,000' and 500' calls, those 100/80/60 callouts on landing roll, {- it's an -80 thing...} reiteration of Approach speeds and landing flaps and autobrake settings that have already been discussed and set, everything past V1/Vr on the TakeOff, who's flying - three times, and normal procedures of all sorts.

Mechanical/Electronic Checklists used to Check that critical items are done are good, quick, simple, easy and visible to both pilots.

Miles long paper "To-Do" Lists, Mandatory Briefings of The Painfully Obvious, and the usually associated Verbal Diarrhea suck Big Time - and are counterproductive.

AA is actually pretty good at the above, on the antique fleet, if one goes by their damned book and not by what some SimP said "they like to see" or "most guys do".

sumwherelse
03-09-2018, 06:16 AM
Not that I’m a fan of it, but it is a procedure in Airbus OM VOL 1, section 2.5.15

Nice. But it does say “whenever possible.” For me it seems to never be possible.

mainlineAF
03-09-2018, 06:39 AM
I like the stable call outs. It forces the pilot flying to acknowledge he’s unstable and lets the PM know he’s correcting and not just along for the ride.

Sliceback
03-09-2018, 06:52 AM
I thought the stable and target thing was beyond silly when I got hired at airways - bust supposedly it made their unstable approaches go way down. If it helps that then I’m all for it.

HF course used to say LAA had the best stabilized compliance in the industry. And that’s without the ‘stable’ call.

Hard to say if any recent improvements came from calling ‘stable’ or LAA’s impact on LUS operations.

R57 relay
03-09-2018, 08:09 AM
HF course used to say LAA had the best stabilized compliance in the industry. And that’s without the ‘stable’ call.

Hard to say if any recent improvements came from calling ‘stable’ or LAA’s impact on LUS operations.

We heard the exact opposite. Keeper of the data makes the truth?

One thing about the 1000' stable call if how often it's made when we are not. VFR of course.

Most changes are just different, no big deal. I don't get the captain making the F/A be seated for TO PA.

aa73
03-09-2018, 09:32 AM
Yeah the Prepare for Takeoff PA is puzzling... one of the things I do not agree with. But ever since upgrading, it is really easy to do. Push PA button. Say Prepare for Takeoff. Switch back to Com 1. Literally takes three seconds.

I do like the Stable call, and the 500ft call.

R57 relay
03-09-2018, 09:49 AM
I don't think I would be so proud about accidents. Even if they are industry-leading accidents.

I didn't think he was proud of them, but that they caused US to take a hard look at our policies and procedures and make big changes. There were some incidents that didn't make the news that also factored in.

Operationally, safety and training wise, US ran a good airline.

R57 relay
03-09-2018, 09:57 AM
Yeah the Prepare for Takeoff PA is puzzling... one of the things I do not agree with. But ever since upgrading, it is really easy to do. Push PA button. Say Prepare for Takeoff. Switch back to Com 1. Literally takes three seconds.

I do like the Stable call, and the 500ft call.

Yeah, I've never run off the taxiway, but when something is stupid, change it. I've heard folks articulate reasons for other other policies and procedures, but not that one.

Our manuals flat out suck. In CQT last month they said that was the biggest complaint and will be first to change. First up-FM1 and 2 combined into one Flight Operations Manual, coming this year.

Things I like at AA over US:

IPad
CCI-we didn't have all that info at our fingertips.
APA hotel app

I'm sure there is more. I think most have already adapted and forgotten how we used to do it. With the 4th merger that comes quicker!

Dolphinflyer
03-09-2018, 10:07 AM
We heard the exact opposite. Keeper of the data makes the truth?

One thing about the 1000' stable call if how often it's made when we are not. VFR of course.

Most changes are just different, no big deal. I don't get the captain making the F/A be seated for TO PA.


Seems I remember them showing us the chart data that AA was doing very well but they still wanted it lower.

SheepDogg
03-09-2018, 03:14 PM
I didn't think he was proud of them, but that they caused US to take a hard look at our policies and procedures and make big changes. There were some incidents that didn't make the news that also factored in.

Operationally, safety and training wise, US ran a good airline.

LOL... I was making a joke. I thought it was obvious enough that I didn't feel that the customary :) or "HaHa" was necessary.

R57 relay
03-09-2018, 06:23 PM
LOL... I was making a joke. I thought it was obvious enough that I didn't feel that the customary :) or "HaHa" was necessary.

Sorry I missed the humor, most don't joke about that time.

450knotOffice
03-09-2018, 10:54 PM
Oh the irony.

Pot, meet kettle.

There's more than one way to safely operate an aircraft. It does get annoying when one group thinks that only their procedures are better or superior than others. Even Gann wrote about this attitude in "Fate is the Hunter". And he was AA.

Many of the LUS procedures were developed after 5 terrible years of accidents. Many turned out to be industry-leading. So LUS has a pretty good record as well.

cactusmike
03-10-2018, 05:13 PM
Having been AAsimilated into the LGA (JFK) 767 base I have a better understanding of where some of this stuff comes from. I still don’t like to see hands down by the fuel cutoff switches but I am better about guarding the thrust levers for the initial climb.

I do everything in flows, it’s taken a while to adapt to the fits and starts of the mechanical checklist, but when you fly into cities with a transition level around 4000 feet you see the need for doing everything until the altimeter. Skipping around on the checklist isn’t something I like but you do know when stuff is done.

After a while you just adapt and get on with it. I do hope any changes that come down from GSW are driven by line pilots and not cubicle warriors that never fly. I’ve seen that before and it results in later reversions back to what really works.

Frip
03-10-2018, 06:45 PM
do hope any changes that come down from GSW are driven by line pilots and not cuBicle dwellers

Every single one of those had got an idea

And you inow how people are once they get an idea up in their head

A330FoodCritic
03-10-2018, 10:06 PM
Years ago, after the merger, on the 757, there was an added step or two to the start sequence. When I asked why, the instructor said it was easier to train the fewer (LUS) in the LAA why than the other way around.

I apologized to the instructor but said that's BS, it takes the same amount of time for the bigger group to learn as the smaller group.

The LUS sequence was approved by Boeing, so there was no issues with it.

LAA just never modified their procedures from their inception, whereas, LUS found a more efficient way.

That was going backwards.

TRZ06
03-10-2018, 11:05 PM
There have been dozens of procedural changes through the years on whatever equipment I was flying...especially on new aircraft. I really don't care how and where changes come from so long we all do things the same way every time. No ad libs, no nonstandard extra calls, just do it like the book says and we can take comfort in expecting the routine without surprises. Frankly I don't think the school house enforces this enough and BTW, I am not ex military.

Sliceback
03-11-2018, 03:12 AM
We heard the exact opposite. Keeper of the data makes the truth?

One thing about the 1000' stable call if how often it's made when we are not. VFR of course.

Most changes are just different, no big deal. I don't get the captain making the F/A be seated for TO PA.

It’s interesting to hear ‘facts’ presented that are being used to steer the listener to believe an altered version of reality so your comment might be valid about the keeper of the data (or the teller of the story)

Sliceback
03-11-2018, 03:16 AM
Seems I remember them showing us the chart data that AA was doing very well but they still wanted it lower.

That was AA vs AA. Not AA vs others. And the recent trend was up.

Vma214
03-12-2018, 04:35 AM
Years ago, after the merger, on the 757, there was an added step or two to the start sequence. When I asked why, the instructor said it was easier to train the fewer (LUS) in the LAA why than the other way around.

I apologized to the instructor but said that's BS, it takes the same amount of time for the bigger group to learn as the smaller group.

The LUS sequence was approved by Boeing, so there was no issues with it.

LAA just never modified their procedures from their inception, whereas, LUS found a more efficient way.

That was going backwards.

Been a little while since I was on the airplane, but if you’re talking about the procedure of turning the bleed off then the packs off then the bleed back on...it was because we had a rash of episodes where, when we didn’t do those steps the APU would auto shutdown at that point (99% of the time during the pushback) leaving us with a dark airplane for a minute or two while we restarted it. The “auto shutdown” problem went away when we started doing the “extra step.” It doesn’t surprise me that the Instructor didn’t know the answer to that question since they have as much equipment movement there as we have in the metal.

meyers9163
03-12-2018, 06:34 AM
The 737 and I’m sure the other fleets already have flows. It’s time they just make it formal. Plus need a way to avoid re doing everything for a through flight. There’s ways to make it 2018 and match it up to the airbus and other fleets easily. Those who say it’s not possible are just stuck in their ways.

Also need to get call outs harmonized. No reason they’re not among the fleets. Hopefully we get there soon. It’d be beneficial to the airline as a whole. Need to just keep it basic. PM PF duties. None of this “CA calls localizer capture and GS capture.” Just makes no sense to not make the PM do those. Minus it’s how we’ve always done it which again isn’t a good argument. Just little things like that the 737 etc fleets need changed.

ExPhantomGuy
03-12-2018, 07:43 AM
This discussion reminds me of a question I asked during my Captain upgrade onto the DC-9 a long time ago (I'm LUS, retired 10 years).

Upon taking the runway, you turned the ignition "on" for takeoff. In the event there was an engine failure, you were supposed to rotate the ignition switch to "over-ride". Supposedly, this bypassed a safety switch in the fuel cutoff levers and insured that the igniters fired.

"Why do we wait for the engine to quit before going to the "over-ride" position? If it's helpful....why not take off with it in that position in the first place? What advantage is there in waiting for the engine to quit?".

I'll never forget the answer that came from the stumped look on the instructor's face....

"Just do it. That's the way it's always been done. You're new on this thing. What makes you so smart to start asking questions....?".

Hmmmmm.

I still don't have a good answer to my question after all these years.....

Seems like a lot of human nature remains the same???

Frip
03-12-2018, 01:35 PM
$$$
Igniters cost money
Igniters burn up sooner in OVRD

EMBFlyer
03-12-2018, 02:11 PM
Been a little while since I was on the airplane, but if you’re talking about the procedure of turning the bleed off then the packs off then the bleed back on...it was because we had a rash of episodes where, when we didn’t do those steps the APU would auto shutdown at that point (99% of the time during the pushback) leaving us with a dark airplane for a minute or two while we restarted it. The “auto shutdown” problem went away when we started doing the “extra step.” It doesn’t surprise me that the Instructor didn’t know the answer to that question since they have as much equipment movement there as we have in the metal.

It could also be turning the Center Fuel Pumps off to start the other engine if you single-engine taxied (or turning them on after engine start). It had something to do with a circuit breaker in the LAA fuel system that the LUS airplanes didn't have, but it was the more conservative procedure of the two, so it was adopted fleet-wide.

Vma214
03-12-2018, 05:13 PM
The 737 and I’m sure the other fleets already have flows. It’s time they just make it formal. Plus need a way to avoid re doing everything for a through flight. There’s ways to make it 2018 and match it up to the airbus and other fleets easily. Those who say it’s not possible are just stuck in their ways.

Also need to get call outs harmonized. No reason they’re not among the fleets. Hopefully we get there soon. It’d be beneficial to the airline as a whole. Need to just keep it basic. PM PF duties. None of this “CA calls localizer capture and GS capture.” Just makes no sense to not make the PM do those. Minus it’s how we’ve always done it which again isn’t a good argument. Just little things like that the 737 etc fleets need changed.

Are you saying the 73 has flows? If so, I wasn’t aware of that. I’m pretty sure the 75/76 does not have flows. And what’s wrong with the CA always calling the loc/gs call? I’m used to it. In other words, you just want to do it your way because you’ve always done it that way also.

Cheddar
03-12-2018, 05:48 PM
75-76 OM1 I’m studying now for transition course has flows. They’re not pretty like the bus, but they’re flow-ish.

Baby steps!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

R57 relay
03-12-2018, 07:02 PM
Are you saying the 73 has flows? If so, I wasn’t aware of that. I’m pretty sure the 75/76 does not have flows. And what’s wrong with the CA always calling the loc/gs call? I’m used to it. In other words, you just want to do it your way because you’ve always done it that way also.

The captain is doing most stuff, why not that too, right?

Dang, how did AA captains get so smart after hiring F/Os that couldn't handle the little things? :p

Cookie Puss
03-12-2018, 07:22 PM
With regard to the wide bodies, is it policy for FOs to taxi when it’s their sector? It’s common for international carriers as there are two tillers.

Floobs
03-12-2018, 11:06 PM
Flight 20/20? Combining proceedures amongst fleets and revising outdated proceedures and manuals? I hope to see this on the Boeing fleet. Anyone have details?

Where is this 2020 coming from? Where did you get this info?

aa73
03-13-2018, 03:50 AM
Are you saying the 73 has flows? If so, I wasn’t aware of that. I’m pretty sure the 75/76 does not have flows. And what’s wrong with the CA always calling the loc/gs call? I’m used to it. In other words, you just want to do it your way because you’ve always done it that way also.

The 737 most definitely has flows. Cockpit setup, After Start, After Landing, and Parking. they’re just not as structured as the Airbus “triggers and flows.”

aa73
03-13-2018, 03:52 AM
The captain is doing most stuff, why not that too, right?

Dang, how did AA captains get so smart after hiring F/Os that couldn't handle the little things? :p

Jumpseating on DL, UA, etc... my observations have been that their captains do about the same amount of work that our captains do. The only exceptions I see that have to do with AA is the Prepare for Takeoff PA, sterile chimes and exterior lights. Minutiae.

Heck, ride in a SWA cockpit... Captains there not only start the engines but handle the fuel control levers too!

Every airline has its differences. The AA cockpit culture has its issues but overall it’s a safe one. What I gather from these threads is that nobody likes change.

Mover
03-13-2018, 05:17 AM
Where is this 2020 coming from? Where did you get this info?

RGS at R9/R18. There's a fancy video.

Sliceback
03-13-2018, 05:52 AM
With regard to the wide bodies, is it policy for FOs to taxi when it’s their sector? It’s common for international carriers as there are two tillers.

No. And the 767’s don’t have FO tillers.

R57 relay
03-13-2018, 06:26 AM
Jumpseating on DL, UA, etc... my observations have been that their captains do about the same amount of work that our captains do. The only exceptions I see that have to do with AA is the Prepare for Takeoff PA, sterile chimes and exterior lights. Minutiae.

Heck, ride in a SWA cockpit... Captains there not only start the engines but handle the fuel control levers too!

Every airline has its differences. The AA cockpit culture has its issues but overall it’s a safe one. What I gather from these threads is that nobody likes change.

I agree, nobody likes change. But wouldn’t you agree that we should be seeking the best practices now? We are not doing it the best way, even if the margin of safety is still good.

I know you’re tired of hearing the complaints. I get it, I’m tired of the constant whining about contract, management etc.

But I’ll add some you probably don’t see because you are a native:

-manuals
-scheduling practices, schedulers and systems(one carrier I know didn’t allow ACARS notification, for good reason)
-cockpit-cabin coordination

Hopefully project 2020 will do truly get the best.

Take care.

aa73
03-13-2018, 07:52 AM
Definitely agree about best practices, and that we can improve. We can always improve, and I do believe things will improve as the merger keeps moving towards “finalized.”

meyers9163
03-13-2018, 09:53 AM
Are you saying the 73 has flows? If so, I wasn’t aware of that. I’m pretty sure the 75/76 does not have flows. And what’s wrong with the CA always calling the loc/gs call? I’m used to it. In other words, you just want to do it your way because you’ve always done it that way also.

Right. Or it’s how just about any airline does it. How about a “landing” call out? Guess that’s too much to ask to make standard too? Seriously best practice to keep us updated to 2018 standard practices would be nice. Guess if that guys dead maybe I’ll figure out we’re not landing at some point.

Floobs
03-13-2018, 02:02 PM
I hope we go back to a lot of the us air stuff. It just made more sense in the 21st century.

mainlineAF
03-13-2018, 03:48 PM
I’m glad we’re complaining about 700 vs 900 new hires and who had better call outs. The other end of the spectrum is bickering pay cuts, displacements and furloughs.

These are good times [emoji41]

Frip
03-13-2018, 04:15 PM
I hope we go back to a lot of the us air stuff. It just made more sense in the 21st century.

How's about we just get back to flying airplanes, and leave all the "cool pilot talk" and stuff to Hollywood?

TransWorld
03-13-2018, 04:16 PM
Agreed, 700 or 900. A first world problem, as they say.

nimslow
03-13-2018, 06:06 PM
Right. Or it’s how just about any airline does it. How about a “landing” call out? Guess that’s too much to ask to make standard too? Seriously best practice to keep us updated to 2018 standard practices would be nice. Guess if that guys dead maybe I’ll figure out we’re not landing at some point.

Since that call is made at DA or DDA, with the runway environment in sight, shouldn't it be "Landing, unless (brief possible reasons for a late go around here)", or "Landing, maybe"? But if your so afraid of the other guy dying, I hope you are guarding the controls and thrust levers..

LAA used to say "landing", then someone with a pay grade way above any of us decided it might bias the PF to try and land, even if they shouldn't, so we stopped.

For the guys *****ing about the manuals, whats the problem there?

Frip
03-14-2018, 04:10 AM
LAA used to say "landing", then someone with a pay grade way above any of us decided it might bias the PF to try and land, even if they shouldn't, so we stopped.



They had evidence of that...

The mandatory "Go-Around" in response to the required in certain conditions "Go-Around" call was one of the better AA CRM/HF/Crew Coordination policy changes ever.

That philosophy replaced the "Landing" call, which did bias people to do just that, even if they shouldn't.

Vma214
03-14-2018, 04:11 AM
The 737 most definitely has flows. Cockpit setup, After Start, After Landing, and Parking. they’re just not as structured as the Airbus “triggers and flows.”

Are you using a checklist to follow up those flows? If so then, yeah, I get what you’re saying. Triggers and flows, otoh, does not rely on a checklist to back up the flows. There is a difference in the philosophy.

PRS Guitars
03-14-2018, 04:35 AM
Are you using a checklist to follow up those flows? If so then, yeah, I get what you’re saying. Triggers and flows, otoh, does not rely on a checklist to back up the flows. There is a difference in the philosophy.

On the Airbus, yes the checklists back up the flows for the most part. All of the big ticket items are backed up, like Flap setting, Altimeter, stab trim, runway, O2, fuel etc.

I don’t know about other fleets, but in the Air Force (on my plane) I use an unofficial flow, that is, it’s not written anywhere, so more of a technique than a procedure (a technique brought to us by airline guys and used by 99% of people). That might be how it works on the other fleets.

The Airbus Flows and triggers have essentially been codified and put in specific places, hence the term trigger. Makes learning it go from “well, this is how most people do the flow” to “this is how you do the flow and here is when you should do it”

meyers9163
03-14-2018, 04:51 AM
LAA used to say "landing", then someone with a pay grade way above any of us decided it might bias the PF to try and land, even if they shouldn't, so we stopped.



They had evidence of that...

The mandatory "Go-Around" in response to the required in certain conditions "Go-Around" call was one of the better AA CRM/HF/Crew Coordination policy changes ever.

That philosophy replaced the "Landing" call, which did bias people to do just that, even if they shouldn't.

The PF calls landing. Not the Captain. Probably a difference there. You all seriously let the CA the landing call when the FO was flying? Really? If so wow.

Frip
03-14-2018, 05:13 AM
The PF calls landing. Not the Captain. Probably a difference there. You all seriously let the CA the landing call when the FO was flying? Really? If so wow.


No, it was the PF, and no one said anything indicating otherwise.

Wow... Just Wow...🙄🙄🙄

"Landing" is still an unnecessary, redundant, stupid and potentially counterproductive callout - left over from the DC-7 or somewhere, that should always be followed by "maybe, if..., unless..." if it does become required again.

Real life ain't the schoolhouse, or some university program.

PRS Guitars
03-14-2018, 05:43 AM
I also think the landing callout is unnecessary. I mean what else am I going to do? If I’m going around I’m clearly going to call that. I see it for approaches to minimums, but that’s it.

Frip
03-14-2018, 05:45 AM
Watch Observe Monitor Verify Do normal stuff

Call out abnormal stuff

Simple

Quiet is good

Chatter is unnecessary and distracting

aa73
03-14-2018, 10:57 AM
Watch Observe Monitor Verify Do normal stuff

Call out abnormal stuff

Simple

Quiet is good

Chatter is unnecessary and distracting

^^^ 604/804 comes to mind. ;)

You guys did it right.

Name User
03-14-2018, 11:06 AM
I also think the landing callout is unnecessary. I mean what else am I going to do? If I’m going around I’m clearly going to call that. I see it for approaches to minimums, but that’s it.

I like it. It confirms to the PM you have it in sight and feel the requirements are met. IIRC there are three requirements:

Have r/w environment in sight
Be in a position to land
Cleared to land

Pulling those from the top of my head...

meyers9163
03-14-2018, 12:47 PM
The PF calls landing. Not the Captain. Probably a difference there. You all seriously let the CA the landing call when the FO was flying? Really? If so wow.


No, it was the PF, and no one said anything indicating otherwise.

Wow... Just Wow...🙄🙄🙄

"Landing" is still an unnecessary, redundant, stupid and potentially counterproductive callout - left over from the DC-7 or somewhere, that should always be followed by "maybe, if..., unless..." if it does become required again.

Real life ain't the schoolhouse, or some university program.

Real life is 2018 not how we’ve always done it ;)

meyers9163
03-14-2018, 12:48 PM
I like it. It confirms to the PM you have it in sight and feel the requirements are met. IIRC there are three requirements:

Have r/w environment in sight
Be in a position to land
Cleared to land

Pulling those from the top of my head...

Exactly. Checks and balances. Keeps it in the TEM model :) But that’s stuff LAA guys hate to talk about because crappy LUS brought it and it’s something that changed immediately.

Frip
03-14-2018, 01:21 PM
Real life is 2018 not how we’ve always done it
meyers9163 is offline

The Landing call was how AA "always did it"

Then they improved upon "how we always did it", and deleted the lamding call in favor of the PM being able to direct a mandatory no questions asked Go Around if conditions warranted it.

That was done for a reason, and a good reason, and is better, safer and at least for now, real life.

Stop trying to go back to how you "always did it".

There is no reason to, and at least one good reason not to.

Vma214
03-14-2018, 01:54 PM
Real life is 2018 not how we’ve always done it
meyers9163 is offline

The Landing call was how AA "always did it"

Then they improved upon "how we always did it", and deleted the lamding call in favor of the PM being able to direct a mandatory no questions asked Go Around if conditions warranted it.

That was done for a reason, and a good reason, and is better, safer and at least for now, real life.

Stop trying to go back to how you "always did it".

There is no reason to, and at least one good reason not to.

No, that was NOT how LAA “always did it.” The “landing” call was inserted at some point (15 to 20ish years ago) and then deleted before the merger.

Frip
03-14-2018, 02:18 PM
Ok... Maybe not "always"

More than 16 years ago

Battlinbear21
03-14-2018, 03:30 PM
I cannot Find and asked friend at UPS to send if they can find it. But l, their TD made a great video about change and changing mind sets. Maybe y’all have seen it? It definitely provides some good insight into things mentioned in this thread. Along w some great humor too. Who knew pilots could be such amazing actors... if someone does have it I’d like to watch it again. Last years was great too w the jumspeater being “that guy”

Al Czervik
03-14-2018, 04:04 PM
I cannot Find and asked friend at UPS to send if they can find it. But l, their TD made a great video about change and changing mind sets. Maybe y’all have seen it? It definitely provides some good insight into things mentioned in this thread. Along w some great humor too. Who knew pilots could be such amazing actors... if someone does have it I’d like to watch it again. Last years was great too w the jumspeater being “that guy”

I’d like to see this.

Godzilla
03-15-2018, 11:02 AM
^^^ 604/804 comes to mind. ;)

You guys did it right.


I could not agree more.
Thank you

Dolphinflyer
03-15-2018, 11:48 AM
My focus is on an Industry Leading contract.

After they pay me the best for saying and doing whatever goofy call or procedure they come up with, then I will humbly suggest we change certain things for the better.

Carry on if you must.

mainlineAF
03-15-2018, 06:03 PM
My focus is on an Industry Leading contract.

After they pay me the best for saying and doing whatever goofy call or procedure they come up with, then I will humbly suggest we change certain things for the better.

Carry on if you must.



This guy gets it.

There’s a bunch of different ways to manage the cockpit. I couldn’t care less about how we do it as long as we can make it rain come payday.