Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Deicing Lear 60


wjl408
03-08-2018, 10:25 AM
Wondering if anyone would know the approximate cost to de-ice a Lear 60. We had our plane de-iced at KTEB recently and it was $7500.00. Seemed high, but was a first for me. They cleaned with Type I then applied Type IV. Probably wouldn't have done the Type IV if I knew how much it was since I was being overly cautious as the snow was subsiding at our departure time.


Mink
03-08-2018, 10:39 AM
Cost us close to $9k for our Global Express @ TEB.

Champeen07
03-08-2018, 12:29 PM
Sounds about right. Last time I did it was 6K for a beechjet, but wasn't at TEB.


BoilerUP
03-08-2018, 12:42 PM
Cost depends entirely on the quantity of gallons of glycol used, and I'd guess like most things there's a TEB premium.

If your plane had a lot of contamination on it, they are gonna burn through quite a bit Type I to get it clean...probably more than actually necessary, in honesty.

But hey, deicing is always cheaper than crashing...especially in a wing-critical airplane like a LR60.

May not have been an option for you, but I always found hangaring the plane, boarding inside the hangar, being pulled out and sprayed, then starting for departure to be WAAAAAAAAAAAY cheaper than letting the airframe get covered in ice/snow.

2StgTurbine
03-08-2018, 01:22 PM
On a Citation, they would use between 20 & 100 gallons of fluid for each treatment of fluid (I or IV). Cost of the fluid is pretty standard across the country too.

There are two variables that determine the amount of fluid used: accumulation & spray technique. More snow/ice requires more fluid to remove. If the person applying the type I/IV has great aim, then there will be less overspray which will wastes less fluid. But since you don't have control of any of the variables, there isn't much you can do. Jets are expensive.

GVCPT
03-08-2018, 01:30 PM
Once paid close to $30K to de-ice a Gulfstream in a central Asia country. No hangar available and it had quite a bit of accumulation of ice. Cheaper than the alternative.

galaxy flyer
03-08-2018, 01:41 PM
Once paid close to $30K to de-ice a Gulfstream in a central Asia country. No hangar available and it had quite a bit of accumulation of ice. Cheaper than the alternative.

My best was 60K on a C-5 and the mission cancelled! Which actually sounds cheap considering the size difference.


Gf

badflaps
03-08-2018, 02:03 PM
My best was 60K on a C-5 and the mission cancelled! Which actually sounds cheap considering the size difference.


Gf
I have a visual of the band leader mouse brushing down Dumbo.

wjl408
03-08-2018, 02:30 PM
Thank you for the replies, I guess it was about the right price because the plane was covered with snow and it was snowing pretty good while they were de-icing and we were invoiced for about 250 gallons. Like one person mentioned, way better than crashing.🛫

galaxy flyer
03-08-2018, 04:06 PM
I have a visual of the band leader mouse brushing down Dumbo.

Ha, ha! It was in Stuttgart; the Greens must have had a cow.

GF

navigatro
03-09-2018, 07:02 AM
Wondering if anyone would know the approximate cost to de-ice a Lear 60. We had our plane de-iced at KTEB recently and it was $7500.00. Seemed high, but was a first for me. They cleaned with Type I then applied Type IV. Probably wouldn't have done the Type IV if I knew how much it was since I was being overly cautious as the snow was subsiding at our departure time.

Seriously??? And you are the D.O.????

Cost should not be a consideration.

wjl408
03-09-2018, 07:39 AM
Seriously??? And you are the D.O.????

Cost should not be a consideration.

Cost is always a consideration when running a business, in hindsight I probably didn't need the Type IV. Thanks anyway fort your unwanted opinion.

Tippy
03-09-2018, 07:58 AM
Cost is always a consideration when running a business, in hindsight I probably didn't need the Type IV. Thanks anyway fort your unwanted opinion.

I completely agree cost is alwyas a consideration, however you said the snow was "subsiding" closer to your departure time. If there is any precip still falling type IV is still a must because type I provides little to no holdover. There are times that cost needs to go out the window. IMHO the boss can afford the Lear, he can afford the glycol. But i understand your instinct to want to save cost, really i do!

HwkrPlt
03-09-2018, 08:29 AM
I'm amazed that someone can be a D.O. and Lear 60 PIC and never deiced before. I guess that is the pilot shortage for ya.

wjl408
03-09-2018, 09:37 AM
I completely agree cost is alwyas a consideration, however you said the snow was "subsiding" closer to your departure time. If there is any precip still falling type IV is still a must because type I provides little to no holdover. There are times that cost needs to go out the window. IMHO the boss can afford the Lear, he can afford the glycol. But i understand your instinct to want to save cost, really i do!
All I was asking for wa the approximate cost as I have never de-iced before, I fully agree safety comes first. We obviously had the option to depart later or the next day for that matter. I've been flying for over 40 years and yes never de-iced before as all of my flying has been in the south and Caribbean. After reading some of the post apearently the cost was reasonable. Also some of the respondents feel they are Gods gift to aviation and feel compelled to insert their unwanted opinions without even knowing all the facts. Thank you for your reply.

Powderkeg
03-09-2018, 01:33 PM
All I was asking for wa the approximate cost as I have never de-iced before, I fully agree safety comes first. We obviously had the option to depart later or the next day for that matter. I've been flying for over 40 years and yes never de-iced before as all of my flying has been in the south and Caribbean. After reading some of the post apearently the cost was reasonable. Also some of the respondents feel they are Gods gift to aviation and feel compelled to insert their unwanted opinions without even knowing all the facts. Thank you for your reply.

You didnít ask for opinions but you did start the thread. Donít take offense, take it as a life lesson with very little tact involved. You said yourself you have never had experience deicing, now you know if itís snowing you absolutely must de-ice AND anti-ice. It costs what it costs. Literally the only alternative is cancelling the trip. Fly safe.

Flyhayes
03-09-2018, 02:30 PM
If you're not familiar with de-icing anti-icing procedures these are the goto documents that you need.
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_135-17.pdf

and

https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviation_industry/airline_operators/airline_safety/media/FAA_2017-18_HoldoverTables.pdf

The latter one being updated annually.

The rule of thumb is that type 1 is used to clear the aircraft of buildup while type 4 is used in during active icing. So even during light snowfall you need to use type 4.

From a 121 perspective, even the cheapest regional airline won't bat an eye spending money on full body type 1 & 2.

BoilerUP
03-09-2018, 02:57 PM
From a 121 perspective, even the cheapest regional airline won't bat an eye spending money on full body type 1 & 2.

FFD airlines typically don't pay the deicing bill, either.

That being said, there are circumstances when you can easily just get sprayed with Type I and depart in light snow within Generic Type I holdover times.

TEB ain't one of those circumstances.

wjl408
03-09-2018, 04:04 PM
Thanks for the reply, I understand the de-icing procedures Type I for de-ice and Type IV for anti-ice and what we did by applying Type I to clean the aircraft and Type IV to depart was exactly what we should have done. We probably didn't need the Type IV as we departed about 5 minutes after the cleaning and the snow had almost subsided. The application of the Type IV was purely better safe than sorry. My question was simply how much should it cost as I was quite surprised with the $7500.00 tab never have experiencing a de-icing before, that's it. What some implied about being the DO or a Lear Pilot and never de-icing before is beyond me, I don't understand what that has to do with anything, I've been flying over 40 years and yes I still learn something almost daily. I guess I can only aspire to know as much as them and be as perfect as them. I truly do appreciate the replies from all that took the time to answer my original question, as for the unwanted opinions from the know it all meatheads, they can take a hike.

Flyhayes
03-09-2018, 04:20 PM
FFD airlines typically don't pay the deicing bill, either.

That being said, there are circumstances when you can easily just get sprayed with Type I and depart in light snow within Generic Type I holdover times.

TEB ain't one of those circumstances.

Considering that the generic type 1 tables only allow for 7-22 HOT's (depending on the temperature) for very light snowfall, I'd say that it pretty much precludes use as an anti ice agent.

HwkrPlt
03-09-2018, 06:25 PM
Considering that the generic type 1 tables only allow for 7-22 HOT's (depending on the temperature) for very light snowfall, I'd say that it pretty much precludes use as an anti ice agent.

What if you can depart within 7 minutes?

2StgTurbine
03-09-2018, 06:26 PM
The rule of thumb is that type 1 is used to clear the aircraft of buildup while type 4 is used in during active icing. So even during light snowfall you need to use type 4.

Those rules of thumb apply to 121 more than 135/91 at smaller class D & G airports. As a previous poster stated Type I often has 5-20 minute hold over times, that is more than enough time to depart from the airports business jets operate from. When I did charter, I would typically de-ice (Type I) about 5-10 times a year and anti-ice (Type IV) twice.

Powderkeg
03-10-2018, 04:44 AM
Those rules of thumb apply to 121 more than 135/91 at smaller class D & G airports. As a previous poster stated Type I often has 5-20 minute hold over times, that is more than enough time to depart from the airports business jets operate from. When I did charter, I would typically de-ice (Type I) about 5-10 times a year and anti-ice (Type IV) twice.

Five minutes is ďmore than enough timeĒ? Do you realize your HOT starts at the beginning of fluid application? Unless youíre deicing a 172 from a cherry picker on the runway it ainít happening. And at TEB, forget about it.

Geez, people, if you canít stand in front of the boss and be proud of your decision to spend some of his money to keep him (and more importantly, you) safe then seek employment elsewhere.

HwkrPlt
03-10-2018, 05:03 AM
Five minutes is ďmore than enough timeĒ? Do you realize your HOT starts at the beginning of fluid application? Unless youíre deicing a 172 from a cherry picker on the runway it ainít happening. And at TEB, forget about it.

Geez, people, if you canít stand in front of the boss and be proud of your decision to spend some of his money to keep him (and more importantly, you) safe then seek employment elsewhere.

There are a ton of variables, and the advantage to being on this side of the fence is that you can make a logical decision, vs flying for an airline and having to do everything by the book. There are advantages to both.

WWYD if the ATIS is reporting freezing rain, its 0*, and nothing is sticking to the airplane cause its nice and warm cause you just pulled it out of the hangar? Coat the airplane in $10k worth of de-ice fluid, or fire her up and go?

BoilerUP
03-10-2018, 05:13 AM
WWYD if the ATIS is reporting freezing rain, its 0*, and nothing is sticking to the airplane cause its nice and warm cause you just pulled it out of the hangar? Coat the airplane in $10k worth of de-ice fluid, or fire her up and go?

Freezing rain? Jet in a heated hangar? 0F?

You get a splash of Type I since you'll get some precip on the airplane after pulling out, and Type 4 because you're in freezing rain.

But since you were in a hangar, you won't need dozens if not hundreds of gallons of Type I to get contamination off the airframe prior to applying Type IV.

At my previous job, at home base in a similar circumstances, we would spray Type IV on wings/tail in the heated hangar, load up in the hangar, pull out, fire up and go. Total time from exiting the hangar to wheels-up, maybe 5-6 minutes.

No contamination on the airframe in a heated hangar so no need for Type I...and spraying the Type IV yourself, you could ensure complete coverage on critical surfaces without totally wasting fluid and/or creating a GIGANTIC mess.

Different ways to SAFELY skin this cat...but if the jet is outside covered in frozen stuff, you're gonna need a lot of Type I to get it off regardless.

navigatro
03-10-2018, 05:36 AM
You can flame me if you want, but this type of thinking is why the Corporate accident rate is as high as it is.

HwkrPlt
03-10-2018, 05:41 AM
You can flame me if you want, but this type of thinking is why the Corporate accident rate is as high as it is.

Oh yeah? What is the last corporate jet to crash due to ground icing that was flown by a professional crew?

BoilerUP
03-10-2018, 05:43 AM
Oh yeah? What is the last corporate jet to crash due to ground icing that was flown by a professional crew?



Challenger Montrose with Dick Ebersol?

HwkrPlt
03-10-2018, 05:47 AM
Challenger Montrose with Dick Ebersol?

So 14 years ago, and it was an airplane very sensitive to freezing precip. Quite the high accident rate.

Powderkeg
03-10-2018, 05:58 AM
There are a ton of variables, and the advantage to being on this side of the fence is that you can make a logical decision, vs flying for an airline and having to do everything by the book. There are advantages to both.

WWYD if the ATIS is reporting freezing rain, its 0*, and nothing is sticking to the airplane cause its nice and warm cause you just pulled it out of the hangar? Coat the airplane in $10k worth of de-ice fluid, or fire her up and go?

Iíve been on both sides of the fence multiple times. After I first worked for a company that had an FAA approved ground icing program and went back to 91 to run a flight department I always asked myself...if it was a good idea then, why wouldnít it be a good idea now? If the only variable was money I spent that stuff like it was growing on the trees.

And to answer your question...if itís freezing rain Iím spraying the Type IV even if the airplane is steaming or Iím canceling the trip. Up to the boss. Since I donít have a chart for calculating the thermal retention of aluminum I have no idea how long I have before the freezing rain starts to stick. A good friend once told me, ďdonít write the first line of the accident report.Ē You wanted logic, thatís as logical as it gets in my opinion.

navigatro
03-10-2018, 06:16 AM
Oh yeah? What is the last corporate jet to crash due to ground icing that was flown by a professional crew?

I'm not just referring to icing accidents.

I'm referring to the "cost" issue being a greater consideration in Corporate/Charter versus Part 121, in all aspects. (hiring/training/operation)

Of course I realize that airlines are cheap, and are often forced to spend $$$ because the FAA mandates it.

Tpinks
03-10-2018, 07:47 AM
Thank you for the replies, I guess it was about the right price because the plane was covered with snow and it was snowing pretty good while they were de-icing and we were invoiced for about 250 gallons. Like one person mentioned, way better than crashing.🛫

250 gallons for a Lear 60?!?!?!?!

I've decided an Airbus A300 that had 6inches of layered ice and snow covering it and between 6 trucks working it, we didn't even spray 1000 gallons combined.

2StgTurbine
03-10-2018, 10:18 AM
Five minutes is ďmore than enough timeĒ? Do you realize your HOT starts at the beginning of fluid application? Unless youíre deicing a 172 from a cherry picker on the runway it ainít happening. And at TEB, forget about it.

I said the hold over times were 5-20 minutes. I never said I would use a 5 min hold over time. It isn't that difficult. Start timing the moment they start spraying and if the finish quickly enough and you can depart right away, simply tell them over the radio to cancel the Type IV.

galaxy flyer
03-10-2018, 12:38 PM
You can flame me if you want, but this type of thinking is why the Corporate accident rate is as high as it is.

You might actually look up the corporate jet accident rate, before posting. Comparing professionally flown Part 91 jets and the airlines, the rates are not very different.

https://www.nbaa.org/ops/safety/stats/

navigatro
03-10-2018, 12:45 PM
You might actually look up the corporate jet accident rate, before posting. Comparing professionally flown Part 91 jets and the airlines, the rates are not very different.

https://www.nbaa.org/ops/safety/stats/

The fatal rate, not so much.

galaxy flyer
03-10-2018, 01:08 PM
The fatal rate, not so much.

0.00 vs. 0.01, it’s a rounding error. You make it sound like bizjets are crashing all the time. There hasn’t been a fatal hull loss in the G550/Global fleet (1500-ish delivered) in nearly 20 years.

What’s your corporate experience?

GF

navigatro
03-10-2018, 01:38 PM
0.00 vs. 0.01, it’s a rounding error. You make it sound like bizjets are crashing all the time. There hasn’t been a fatal hull loss in the G550/Global fleet (1500-ish delivered) in nearly 20 years.

What’s your corporate experience?

GF

Not quite. You used 2014 data which is partial year. The last year of full data is 2013 and the corporate fatal rate is nearly 5 times higher.

Go back 10 or 20 years of data, and Corporate is much higher, on average. Corporate is much better than GA rate but that is not saying much.

I just like to stir the pot. My point is merely that at part 121, de-icing cost is not a concern of the pilots. At Corporate, it may be. When cost becomes a concern, safety can suffer.

BTW, I am MIL and 121 background, and have never ever given any consideration to the cost of de-icing in 25+ years of professional flying.

galaxy flyer
03-10-2018, 03:25 PM
Then, youíre just hanging out on the corporate forum to troll professionals and feel superior. Got it.

Here, Mil, 121 long-gone legacy and corporate; Iíve been there in all three.

GF

navigatro
03-10-2018, 06:45 PM
Then, youíre just hanging out on the corporate forum to troll professionals and feel superior. Got it.

GF

Yes, you got it. Except the facts support my thesis.

galaxy flyer
03-11-2018, 06:53 AM
And then you might read this, statistics are tricky things. The problem is when the number of accidents is small (numerator) and the flight hours (divisor) is also small, a couple of accidents make the rate look worse. As I said, the hull losses of professionally flown corporate jets is very small.

I’m just asking you take a more open-minded view of a segment of aviation you admit you have no experience in. I’ve flown corporate with many happy and safe former airline pilots.

https://www.ainonline.com/sites/ainonline.com/files/fileadmin/template/main/pdfs/safety.pdf

RI830
03-11-2018, 08:38 AM
Cost is always a “factor” (you factor it into your operation) even for Jeff Bezos and Warrsn Buffett. But they understand that there are dollars that are always spent for things in life.

For de-icing and anything safety related.....the cost shouldn’t be debated (whether you should or shouldn’t spend this $$).
If you feel the cost per gallon is too high....consider the cost of
- you not making home to your family
- the cost of the business not having your boss
- the insurance claims on the plane and paxs
- and don’t forget about the lawsuits

You can pay now or pay later with extremely high interest.
Your boss left NYC from the highest quality and highest priced hotels. Shopped the Park and Madison Ave stores. Ate at the finest of restaraunts. All that for temporary pleasure.
A $7,000 bill to safely get him home and ready to do NYC the next time is well worth the money.

We were spending
- 30K/ month on Parts plan
- 25K/ month on hangar space
- 3K/ month on WiFi
Drop in the bucket for these type of guys.

For us lowly pilot folk, it can be hard to turn your personal financial brain off and spend money like Jeff Bezos, but you must be able to see those big numbers and spend accordingly.

beech1980
03-11-2018, 05:52 PM
Thank you for the replies, I guess it was about the right price because the plane was covered with snow and it was snowing pretty good while they were de-icing and we were invoiced for about 250 gallons. Like one person mentioned, way better than crashing.🛫

Thatís a lot of fluid... this winter in a snow storm in up state New York we used 150 of type 1 and 125 of type 4 and that was on a 737-800! The only reason I know the total is because it was at a military base and they told us. We were basically glowing green until we reached our destination 3 hours later. Iím all about de icing and anti icing but I think you got hosed. Literally...

JohnBurke
03-12-2018, 07:24 AM
I just like to stir the pot. My point is merely that at part 121, de-icing cost is not a concern of the pilots. At Corporate, it may be. When cost becomes a concern, safety can suffer.


If deice is necessary, it's necessary. Period.

The crew isn't responsible for weather, and the crew isn't responsible for the aircraft needing to be deiced (unless they failed to secure hangar space with an overnight ice storm).

You're absolutely right that if cost is a concern, safety can suffer, but it's also the responsibility of the crew to make safety the priority. If the owner or board finds the cost too high, then the flight is too expensive and shouldn't be made; but that's their problem, not that of the crew.

wjl408
03-12-2018, 09:33 AM
250 gallons for a Lear 60?!?!?!?!

I've decided an Airbus A300 that had 6inches of layered ice and snow covering it and between 6 trucks working it, we didn't even spray 1000 gallons combined.

That's one of the reasons I was asking, 250 gallons seems like a lot. Thank you for the reply.

RI830
03-12-2018, 09:44 AM
That's one of the reasons I was asking, 250 gallons seems like a lot. Thank you for the reply.

The only control you have at this point is to hangar the plane next time or go to an FBO that might squirt less fluid on your next de-ice rendezvous. There are many fbo’s who have a lack of knowledgeable or experienced de-ice crews. This might have been your problem on your maiden drive voyage.

I would far rather take extra fluid than not enough.

pilotgolfer
03-14-2018, 04:35 PM
MicroStrategy brought their 2 Globals to Dulles from Hagerstown to hangar them in advance of a snowstorm. It snowed so bad that the hangar collapsed and crushed their planes. Might of been cheaper to de-ice in HGR in hindsight!

RI830
03-14-2018, 07:04 PM
MicroStrategy brought their 2 Globals to Dulles from Hagerstown to hangar them in advance of a snowstorm. It snowed so bad that the hangar collapsed and crushed their planes. Might of been cheaper to de-ice in HGR in hindsight!

Oh man.....I flew into IAD just a few days after that occurred.
Was erie to see all that heavy metal standing at attention inside the hangar. Bad day for insurance companies.

mainlineAF
03-15-2018, 05:22 AM
0.00 vs. 0.01, itís a rounding error. You make it sound like bizjets are crashing all the time. There hasnít been a fatal hull loss in the G550/Global fleet (1500-ish delivered) in nearly 20 years.

Whatís your corporate experience?

GF



What percentage of the corporate fleet do they make up? Maybe 10?

HwkrPlt
03-16-2018, 02:06 PM
What percentage of the corporate fleet do they make up? Maybe 10?

Probably a lot higher, but I am not good at maths.

But what is the last fatal corporate jet accident that wasn't part of some scabby 135 operation?

galaxy flyer
03-16-2018, 03:42 PM
May 31st, 2014, GIV at KBED. Crew did not do complete flight control checks, control lock remained in place, however, the authothrottle system allowed sufficient power for attempted take-off. Crew failure, but there was both airworthiness design and training issues.

Before that, it might be the 604 at Birmingham, UK 2001-ish due to, wait for it, failure to de-ice frost. The frost was melted on the downwind side by APU exhaust causing a asymmetric wing. New to type crew.

GF

RI830
03-16-2018, 06:32 PM
Probably a lot higher, but I am not good at maths.

But what is the last fatal corporate jet accident that wasn't part of some scabby 135 operation?

https://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/files/pdf/ain_2017_fatal_bizav_accidents_first_nine_months.p df

This one comes to mind too
- Phenom 300 with Bin Laden relatives onboard; ref+50 over the fence



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1