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Thegrandpoobah
03-14-2018, 07:02 AM
Could an A&P license be a selling point for a someone looking to get into a bizjet career? I already have my license but it is currently inactive, just wondering if I should go to the effort to become current again or if it doesn't really matter all that much.


Champeen07
03-14-2018, 08:46 AM
I would say not really. Almost all places have their own maintenance facilities already staffed or have it done on contract by a maintenance facility on the field. I have flown with some A&Ps and not once has one of them ever done any maintenance.

Your mileage may vary though.

frankgh
03-19-2018, 07:46 PM
Could an A&P license be a selling point for a someone looking to get into a bizjet career? I already have my license but it is currently inactive, just wondering if I should go to the effort to become current again or if it doesn't really matter all that much.

There is no A&P currency that I am aware of. There is for an IA.


JohnBurke
03-20-2018, 05:41 AM
I got my first turbojet job in a corporate flight department because they needed a pilot-mechanic.

I've had a number of jobs in which my turning wrenches was valuable to the employer and got me in the door, or in other cases kept me employed between flying.

Most corporate departments do not use pilot-mechanics.

When you say your "license" is "inactive," do you mean you're out of practice? Do you have experience working on turbojet equipment?

The A&P entitles you legally to work on a lot of equipment that you may or may not actually be qualified or experienced enough to work on (radial engines, for example, though you may not have ever seen one). The regulation stipulates that to do something you've got to have done it before, but that seldom gets honored. The question is, if you're given a job maintaining a corporate turbojet aircraft, are you qualified to do that?

Qualified is more than the certification, but the knowledge, experience ability, and in the case of a mechanic, the tools to do the job.

esa17
03-21-2018, 01:07 AM
Yes, I got my first corporate job thanks to my A&P. That said, be careful.

A lot of times you end up doing three times the work of ďjust a pilotĒ for the same money.

JohnBurke
03-21-2018, 04:53 AM
Yes, I got my first corporate job thanks to my A&P. That said, be careful.

A lot of times you end up doing three times the work of ďjust a pilotĒ for the same money.

Quite so. A job which requires a pilot to use his A&P needs to be paid extra to compensate for the additional duties. Otherwise, the operator is abusing your higher qualification and you're working for nothing.

Depending on how busy you are in either capacity, you'll need to watch out for duty, rest, and fatigue issues. While a corporate pilot does not have a FAA-imposed duty and rest limit, the bottom line is that he or she must still operate safely, and the same is true of a mechanic. Don't let yourself be put in the position of compromising safety margins, and don't allow your skills and certifications to be abused with underpay.

742Dash
03-21-2018, 11:14 AM
There is no A&P currency that I am aware of. There is for an IA.

FAR 65.83 sets the currency requirements for an A&P. (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/65.83)

Source: Non-current A&P who wishes that he were current.

JohnBurke
03-21-2018, 12:22 PM
FAR 65.83 sets the currency requirements for an A&P. (https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/65.83)

Source: Non-current A&P who wishes that he were current.

The FAA has established the regulation for currency. However, there is no logbook and no record keeping required to show currency. Additionally, there is no specificity regarding what constitutes how he or she has "served as a mechanic under his certificate or rating."

Don't forget 14 CFR 65.81 which stipulates that a certificated mechanic may not supervise or approve for return to service work for which he is rated unless he has performed the work at an earlier date.

kevbo
03-21-2018, 02:12 PM
Could an A&P license be a selling point for a someone looking to get into a bizjet career? I already have my license but it is currently inactive, just wondering if I should go to the effort to become current again or if it doesn't really matter all that much.

It may be useful in for a very small operator, crop duster, or bush pilot. In a corporate or professional setting, you do not want to be associated with the "help". Maintenance is just one step above janitorial and grounds keepers, it would tarnish your image as a professional. The only way the FAA could prove that you weren't current is if you told them so.

crbnftprnt
03-21-2018, 03:51 PM
In a corporate or professional setting, you do not want to be associated with the "help". Maintenance is just one step above janitorial and grounds keepers, it would tarnish your image as a professional. .

What an astonishingly rude thing to say. In my aviation career I have never heard anyone express anything close to these sentiments. I speculate there that there is some very negative experience in your background that has created this vindictiveness.

esa17
03-21-2018, 04:25 PM
It may be useful in for a very small operator, crop duster, or bush pilot. In a corporate or professional setting, you do not want to be associated with the "help". Maintenance is just one step above janitorial and grounds keepers, it would tarnish your image as a professional. The only way the FAA could prove that you weren't current is if you told them so.
Youíre way out of your lane.

The 135 that I worked for who forbade me from working on the aircraft was a Bush outfit in Alaska.

With my current outfit, one of the biggest and most specialized fleets in the country, I find myself working on the planes a lot. Iím happy, and lucky, to associate with ďthe helpĒ.

Iím also the manager of a regional detachment for my company who goes out of my way to hire guys who arenít afraid to get dirty or cut their hands. Most of them have forgotten more than arrogant ďpilotsĒ will ever know.

Janitors my ass.

kevbo
03-21-2018, 05:04 PM
What an astonishingly rude thing to say. In my aviation career I have never heard anyone express anything close to these sentiments. I speculate there that there is some very negative experience in your background that has created this vindictiveness.

I was a working mechanic for over a decade and finished THAT career with a major airline. The standards for training and certification are too low for a mechanics status to rise much above menial labor. My experience left me with the opinion that maintenance is a line of work aimed squarely at high school dropouts. Thinking otherwise ultimately hurt my career progression.

esa17
03-21-2018, 05:19 PM
I was a working mechanic for over a decade and finished THAT career with a major airline. The standards for training and certification are too low for a mechanics status to rise much above menial labor. My experience left me with the opinion that maintenance is a line of work aimed squarely at high school dropouts. Thinking otherwise ultimately hurt my career progression.

If you finished your career after a decade then you werenít successful. I suspect your attitude is why you failed.

Some of the smartest and most capable people I know are mechanics.

JohnBurke
03-21-2018, 05:22 PM
What an astonishingly rude thing to say. In my aviation career I have never heard anyone express anything close to these sentiments. I speculate there that there is some very negative experience in your background that has created this vindictiveness.

There's a reason I put him on the ignore list some time ago. He spends an inordinate amount of time bashing aviation maintenance though his actual work experience is minimal. Four years is what he's claimed in the past, I believe. Not hardly enough to scratch the surface. Some of us have thirty + years experience, and have a very different story to tell...but then we know what we're talking about. He does not.

Aviation maintenance is a far more diverse and complex business than working in the cockpit. The scope of what one must know is substantially greater on the shop floor, and the correct application thereof is critical. I've been flying and turning wrenches for a long time. Anyone who suggests that maintenance lacks professionalism or a valid standing in the aviation community, or that aviation maintenance is a lesser profession, only speaks to their own ignorance.

I've done corporate maintenance, 135 maintenance, fractional maintenance, worked in ag and fire operations, jump operations, through airline operations. Wood and fabric, tube and fabric, metal, fiberglass, and on horizontally opposed, small and large radial, turboprops, and turbojets. I've driven a lot of rivets, doped coverings, repaired radomes, and done electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, fuel, and about everything else one can do on an airframe or powerplant or propeller or appliance. I've been a director of maintenance twice, and worked as a mechanic in 145 repair stations, where I've also been an inspector in the shop and a line inspector. I weld.

Maintenance is an honorable profession and a valid line of work. I know a number of very experienced, very well qualified mechanics who are far from merely the "help." Every time we take the runway and push up the power, our lives are not only dependent upon our own judgement in the cockpit, but upon the professionalism and attention to detail of every pair of hands that touched that aircraft, and one would do well not to forget it.

The sheer chutzpah of the ******* who is so self-righteious as to turn his nose in the air at a professional who gets his hands dirty on the job is beyond offensive. That it smacks of ignorance is a given but understated; it's one thing to have an opinion based on limited experience like the poster on my ignore list. It's entirely another to post the lies and stupidity which he spouts about the profession. It's unfortunate that someone might give him any credence at all. It's reprehensible that if he's a pilot at all, his life depends upon those upon whom he spits.

kevbo
03-21-2018, 06:16 PM
If you finished your career after a decade then you weren’t successful. I suspect your attitude is why you failed.

Some of the smartest and most capable people I know are mechanics.
I didn't fail, I left for greener grass!
I agree with the second statement, unfortunately the village idiot is also a mechanic. You are defined at the lowest common denominator. Maintenance would hold much higher status if the basic certification requirements were raised beyond the level of high school drop out!

AviatorAl04
03-21-2018, 06:49 PM
I didn't fail, I left for greener grass!
I agree with the second statement, unfortunately the village idiot is also a mechanic. You are defined at the lowest common denominator. Maintenance would hold much higher status if the basic certification requirements were raised beyond the level of high school drop out!

Iím sure your fellow co-workers just love flying with you. You sound like a gem.

esa17
03-22-2018, 02:28 AM
I didn't fail, I left for greener grass!
I agree with the second statement, unfortunately the village idiot is also a mechanic. You are defined at the lowest common denominator. Maintenance would hold much higher status if the basic certification requirements were raised beyond the level of high school drop out!

You are correct about the village idiot. Fortunately, their career usually falls apart around year 10.

Iím sure your fellow co-workers just love flying with you. You sound like a gem.

We had a know-it-all like that in Alaska that couldnít keep up. Everyone call him the Anchor and was relieved when he got canned.

Airhoss
03-22-2018, 04:58 AM
It may be useful in for a very small operator, crop duster, or bush pilot. In a corporate or professional setting, you do not want to be associated with the "help". Maintenance is just one step above janitorial and grounds keepers, it would tarnish your image as a professional. The only way the FAA could prove that you weren't current is if you told them so.

Wow.....Just wow!

Iíve only had one corporate job. All the pilots were also mechanics.

JohnBurke
03-22-2018, 06:46 AM
Wow.....Just wow!

Iíve only had one corporate job. All the pilots were also mechanics.

Looking back, quite a few of the places I've worked have had pilot-mechanics, including many of management. The first two jobs where I worked, the owners were mechanics. The first place I instructed, the owner and the general manager were mechanics. The first tech school I attended in aviation (an ag school), the owner was a mechanic and insisted all the pilots learn maintenance. My first 135 job, the owner, director of operations, and principals were mechanics, as were several line pilots, including myself. I worked at the largest drop zone in the world, and also one of the busiest military training facilities for freefall, and the principals were mechanics, as well as pilots, and were constantly on the shop floor. The same is true at three ambulance operations; each mechanics, several pilots, as was the case at the then-largest airtanker operation in the country. Owner was pilot and mechanic. Same for other fire operations where I've worked and flown...all of them, in fact. Airlines...at one the principal was not only owner but pilot but mechanic...and numerous pilots along the way who were also mechanics, some of whom ran their own shops on the side. A large airplane operation involving various utility operations, military, etc...pilot-mechanics. And some of the places I've worked, one was also expected to be a mechanic. Come to think of it, it's really not that uncommon.

There is no harm that comes to a pilot with mechanic qualifications; it is only a plus. But then what would some of us who have spent a life time doing it know, anyway?

galaxy flyer
03-22-2018, 07:37 AM
There’s a few corporate operations where the Director of Aviation came from the mechanics group. Some good, some not so much; largely depending on how they were treated as mechanics.

In the C-5 world, I learned quickly one didn’t get far not treating the maintenance people and flight engineers as anything less than the pros they are. Everyday, I was at the maintenance daily production meeting, hearing the problems, trying to open obstacles by adding ops weight to their shortages and establishing priorities. In the plane, even with a tricky maintenance problem or loading problem, it was always “what can I do?” Or “what do you need?”

When I went over to a corporate operation, it was the same deal, listen, learn and apply what they taught and passed on. None was ever menial labor.

One gets what one gives in return. Treat like ******, you’ll get it back.

GF

rickair7777
03-22-2018, 12:10 PM
It may be useful in for a very small operator, crop duster, or bush pilot. In a corporate or professional setting, you do not want to be associated with the "help". Maintenance is just one step above janitorial and grounds keepers, it would tarnish your image as a professional. The only way the FAA could prove that you weren't current is if you told them so.


I get along fine with mechanics (I do have mechanical aptitude and experience). In the airline zoo, pilots and mechanics are the two most consistently profession groups of grownups. We have more in common with them than anyone else. I wouldn't get too full of yourself. Or maybe your outfit is scraping the bottom of the A&P barrel? :eek:

There's also a big difference between an A&P and an illegal alien wrenching under the supervision of an A&P...

kevbo
03-22-2018, 01:28 PM
I get along fine with mechanics (I do have mechanical aptitude and experience). In the airline zoo, pilots and mechanics are the two most consistently profession groups of grownups. We have more in common with them than anyone else. I wouldn't get too full of yourself. Or maybe your outfit is scraping the bottom of the A&P barrel? :eek:

There's also a big difference between an A&P and an illegal alien wrenching under the supervision of an A&P...

Well, pilots seem to have a much higher opinion of aircraft maintenance personnel than I do. Its not that bad at highest levels of the craft. The A&P however, is an extremely low bar by itself and has very little value without a good track record of additional training and experience. Even then its a dirty low paying job with a horrible schedule. I would never tell anyone I have an A&P because I fear they may know how bad it really is.

esa17
03-22-2018, 03:34 PM
Well, pilots seem to have a much higher opinion of aircraft maintenance personnel than I do. Its not that bad at highest levels of the craft. The A&P however, is an extremely low bar by itself and has very little value without a good track record of additional training and experience. Even then its a dirty low paying job with a horrible schedule. I would never tell anyone I have an A&P because I fear they may know how bad it really is.
Of the four blue cards in my wallet my A&P was the most difficult to obtain.

Itís not that youíre out of your lane at this point. You never learned to swim and are at the bottom of the pool. You should hang out at jetcareers instead of here. Youíll get along great with that bunch.

kevbo
03-22-2018, 04:54 PM
Of the four blue cards in my wallet my A&P was the most difficult to obtain.

Itís not that youíre out of your lane at this point. You never learned to swim and are at the bottom of the pool. You should hang out at jetcareers instead of here. Youíll get along great with that bunch.

It would not have been difficult to get if you went to a 147 school. I did and found the pace of instruction to be excruciatingly slow. No subject was covered in any meaningful depth. Definitely wasted many of those 2000 hrs of government mandated incarceration. Most pilots are savvy enough to get one of their A&P toting buddies to write a letter so they can just go take the test. That may have presented some difficulty since you had to learn/memorize enough of the Q&As over a weekend. These two reasons are why the cert is basically worthless.

JohnBurke
03-22-2018, 05:09 PM
When I did my mechanic certificate, I did it based on experience. Though only 30 months of full time (40 hrs/week) maintenance experience are required, I documented more (6 years at the time, I believe). I spent a year studying for the writtens, then submitted an application packet for authorization to take the writtens.

I contacted each employer, and put together a dossier of every aircraft I'd worked on and every operation and detail. I got letters from each employer and inspectors at each location, with documentation. I put it together in a packet, complete with cover and table of contents, and took it to a FSDO near where I was flying at the time. The FSDO made copies and said they'd use it as an example.

I spent another year preparing to take the practical, then went to an examiner at a community college where I spent two days doing the practical test; one day 8 hours of oral questioning, and one day of practical exercises that included laying out and riveting metal, balancing a propeller, timing magnetos, researching AD's, inspecting an aircraft, and a host of other things. All together, about eight years to get the certificate, and I earned it, without question. I immediately went to work in a shop that did everything and had every repair certification but one. On day one I was pointed to a large airplane and told to fabricate and replace every fuel line in the aircraft. Work was intensive and the variety quite large, everything from big radial engines to turbojets, every kind of system and repair there is. We did it all, and that was the just the first job with the certificate. It got more diverse from there.

When I hear about people who got by with pathetically low standards and minimums, I know immediately what kind of person I'm talking to or hearing from, and my respect level for them gets tossed in the toilet. I don't waste time with that kind of person. Invariably they don't have much good to say about the profession, because they're a bottom feeder. Unfortunately, such unprofessionals do exist out there; I've met a few. Seems one or two post here, as well. Fortunately, most with whom I've worked and continue to work are very professional, very dedicated, and far more serious about their profession.

Make no mistake, it is very much a profession. Those who think otherwise speak articulately about their own level of dedication and professionalism, not the industry. Watch out for such folks; they'll get you killed. The industry benefits greatly when they drop out and go do something else; their failure in the industry raises the bar for everyone.

kevbo
03-22-2018, 07:20 PM
John, it sounds like you did it the right way. I hope the government will someday tighten standards enough to preserve the value of A&Ps. I would like to get back into the better end of maintenance, the lure is still there. Competition is fierce and wages are much lower than my current job. The choices of junior bases are a huge deal breaker. No mechanic will ever make enough to thrive in expensive locales.



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