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queue
03-14-2018, 08:44 AM
Hello fellow pilots. Here's something I quickly put together to show how bad your pay really is. Now, this doesn't include all those other pay bonuses you would get at other airlines. It's raw pay only. I'm quite certain that if you included in those factors (e.g. picking up trips), then your pay would be exponentially better at every other airline. Feedback welcome.

Please show this to anyone who doesn't believe BJ pay is bad...

https://i.imgur.com/iLXrOJK.png

https://i.imgur.com/gip1mkB.png


queue
03-14-2018, 08:51 AM
And let's not forget...

Average Profit Per Passenger

BJ makes more than ANYONE ELSE....

https://i.imgur.com/VHbZYOc.png

Bluedriver
03-14-2018, 09:04 AM
But culture! I like the guys I fly with! ATC! They are working on it! Be patient!


aldonite7667
03-14-2018, 09:08 AM
8 year captain. My after tax bonus was $2800. Winning!

Excargodog
03-14-2018, 09:08 AM
I'm quite certain that if you included in those factors (e.g. picking up trips), then your pay would be exponentially better at every other airline. Feedback welcome.

Please show this to anyone who doesn't believe BJ pay is bad...



You use this word “exponentially.”

I do not believe it means what you think it means....

PilotJ3
03-14-2018, 09:12 AM
You use this word “exponentially.”

I do not believe it means what you think it means....

DAL pay went up 3% in Jan 1. APC and the table numbers does not have the current rates.

queue
03-14-2018, 09:21 AM
You use this word “exponentially.”

I do not believe it means what you think it means....

You can think what you want. I didn't graduate the third grade for nothing. Obviously the use of literary devices escapes you.

queue
03-14-2018, 09:22 AM
DAL pay went up 3% in Jan 1. APC and the table numbers does not have the current rates.

I'll amend the spreadsheet.

Gearswinger
03-14-2018, 10:43 AM
ugh...

There is not enough alcohol in the Bluejuice to dull the pain.

say again
03-14-2018, 10:49 AM
ugh...

There is not enough alcohol in the Bluejuice to dull the pain.

That's why I drink moonshine...:eek:

Combatcraig
03-14-2018, 10:55 AM
CULTURE=brain washing for CHEAP LABOR!!!

Rickce7
03-14-2018, 12:02 PM
2017 Profit Sharing: LAME

2017 Fake 8% Pay Raise: LAMER

queue
03-14-2018, 12:05 PM
2017 Profit Sharing: LAME

2017 Fake 8% Pay Raise: LAMER

I know there are so many variations, but I wish I had numbers on profit sharing, benefits, etc. So I could create some baseline of comparison.

Excargodog
03-14-2018, 12:31 PM
You can think what you want. I didn't graduate the third grade for nothing. Obviously the use of literary devices escapes you.

Perhaps not, but it is somewhat of a third grade analysis. Even a lifetime 20-25% gross difference hardly qualifies as exponential. Nor does it consider after tax effects. Clearly, Jet Blue people are paid less and the first year FO pay is a little tacky, but considerations such as high tax vs low tax state of residence ( NJ or ILL vs Texas or FL for example) would have as much effect or more upon ability to build wealth. Except for first year FOs, nobody is starving at Jet Blue. And even they don’t appear to starve for long.

Control your overzealousness and avoid hyperbole and you will make a more rational and perhaps convincing argument.

rvr1800
03-14-2018, 01:03 PM
Here’s a much more comprehensive guide that your dues paid for. This is what everyone should reference when comparing ourselves to others.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/jetblue2/Contract%20Comparison/JetBlue%20Contract%20Comparison.pdf

queue
03-14-2018, 01:39 PM
Perhaps not, but it is somewhat of a third grade analysis. Even a lifetime 20-25% gross difference hardly qualifies as exponential. Nor does it consider after tax effects. Clearly, Jet Blue people are paid less and the first year FO pay is a little tacky, but considerations such as high tax vs low tax state of residence ( NJ or ILL vs Texas or FL for example) would have as much effect or more upon ability to build wealth. Except for first year FOs, nobody is starving at Jet Blue. And even they don’t appear to starve for long.

Control your overzealousness and avoid hyperbole and you will make a more rational and perhaps convincing argument.

I'm not even trying to create an argument. I just wanted to visualize publicly written numbers that others could use as a baseline for seeing how screwed they are compared to other peer airlines. People can decide for themselves from the data if there is an argument or not. The pretty lines are quite convincing though.

Perhaps instead of being so critical of literary devices you could instead put together your own analysis with substantially more detail. Perhaps you could find ways to be more critical of your employer to restore respect to our profession. Perhaps you could tear apart every email you see from BJ that are outright misrepresentations whenever they comment about the progress of negotiations. Perhaps you could be more useful?

I don't think there's any debate that JB's pay is horrible, and the worst for our tier of airline.

I don't care if you are critical of me. I do care that you have not done anything in this thread to help the overall cause of making our profession better.

queue
03-14-2018, 01:40 PM
Here’s a much more comprehensive guide that your dues paid for. This is what everyone should reference when comparing ourselves to others.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/jetblue2/Contract%20Comparison/JetBlue%20Contract%20Comparison.pdf


Perfect! Now let's make sure everyone on the planet knows about these charts. Not enough people are aware of the pay/benefits situation.

PowderFinger
03-14-2018, 01:47 PM
DAL pay went up 3% in Jan 1. APC and the table numbers does not have the current rates.

Same for Untied.

Excargodog
03-14-2018, 02:33 PM
I'm not even trying to create an argument. I just wanted to visualize publicly written numbers that others could use as a baseline for seeing how screwed they are compared to other peer airlines. People can decide for themselves from the data if there is an argument or not. The pretty lines are quite convincing though.

Perhaps instead of being so critical of literary devices you could instead put together your own analysis with substantially more detail. Perhaps you could find ways to be more critical of your employer to restore respect to our profession. Perhaps you could tear apart every email you see from BJ that are outright misrepresentations whenever they comment about the progress of negotiations. Perhaps you could be more useful?

I don't think there's any debate that JB's pay is horrible, and the worst for our tier of airline.

I don't care if you are critical of me. I do care that you have not done anything in this thread to help the overall cause of making our profession better.

Hyperbole does not serve the purpose of making the profession better either. With a median family income in the US of $59,000, one can scarcely describe JBs pay as "horrible." It is, by your own calculations, 20-25% below that of its competitors. Just SAY that. Don't use emotionally charged words like 'horrible' or 'exponential' to try to prove your point. Neither are apropos.

Nor do you 'make our profession better' by coming across as chicken little.

RiddleEagle18
03-14-2018, 03:31 PM
Hyperbole does not serve the purpose of making the profession better either. With a median family income in the US of $59,000, one can scarcely describe JBs pay as "horrible." It is, by your own calculations, 20-25% below that of its competitors. Just SAY that. Don't use emotionally charged words like 'horrible' or 'exponential' to try to prove your point. Neither are apropos.



Nor do you 'make our profession better' by coming across as chicken little.



Wtf! We aren’t comparing ourselves to median families. Everyone knows what he’s talking about.

We are woefully under compensated compared to our peers. Exponentially one might say.


The company loves your argument though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bluedriver
03-14-2018, 03:42 PM
Hyperbole does not serve the purpose of making the profession better either. With a median family income in the US of $59,000, one can scarcely describe JBs pay as "horrible." It is, by your own calculations, 20-25% below that of its competitors. Just SAY that. Don't use emotionally charged words like 'horrible' or 'exponential' to try to prove your point. Neither are apropos.

Nor do you 'make our profession better' by coming across as chicken little.

Being paid 30-40% below your peers is known to cause hyperbole. Everyone knows hyperbole is an approved method of venting.

Take you median family income elsewhere, we are not median achievers with median responsibilities. And we don't have median peers.

queue
03-14-2018, 03:50 PM
Hyperbole does not serve the purpose of making the profession better either. With a median family income in the US of $59,000, one can scarcely describe JBs pay as "horrible." It is, by your own calculations, 20-25% below that of its competitors. Just SAY that. Don't use emotionally charged words like 'horrible' or 'exponential' to try to prove your point. Neither are apropos.

Nor do you 'make our profession better' by coming across as chicken little.

You are so right. I'm so glad you are here to tell me these things.

And... JB's pay is HORRIBLE, ATROCIOUS, and an INSULT to professional pilots. JB pilots are not paid what they are worth. I'm sorry that airline pilots make more money. Should medical doctors, scientists, engineers, and lawyers make significantly less also because the median US income is $59,000?

Your logic is not consistent.

SmitteyB
03-14-2018, 06:55 PM
Median Family doesn't live in Boston, New York, Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, or the LA Basin.

What a disgusting rationale.

txbusdriver
03-14-2018, 07:47 PM
Hyperbole does not serve the purpose of making the profession better either. With a median family income in the US of $59,000, one can scarcely describe JBs pay as "horrible." It is, by your own calculations, 20-25% below that of its competitors. Just SAY that. Don't use emotionally charged words like 'horrible' or 'exponential' to try to prove your point. Neither are apropos.

Nor do you 'make our profession better' by coming across as chicken little.

You are a dope and the firm loves people like you. I could care less what the median income in the US is. What I do care about is that our pay is the bottom of the barrel.

Excargodog
03-14-2018, 09:12 PM
Median Family doesn't live in Boston, New York, Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, or the LA Basin.

What a disgusting rationale.

Au contraire:

New York State Household Income | Department of Numbers (http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/new-york/)


Median Household Income By Zip Code in Los Angeles County, California (http://www.laalmanac.com/employment/em12c.php)

Boston Massachusetts Household Income | Department of Numbers (http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/massachusetts/boston/)

Orlando, Florida Economy (http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/florida/orlando)

Fort Lauderdale, Florida Economy (http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/florida/fort_lauderdale)


See what I mean? Hyperbole. You can present the facts or make the case that pilots OUGHT to be paid more than the median family income, without either hyperbole or non factual statements. You needn't be strident or hysterical.

And vilifying someone because they simply request the facts unadorned by hyperbole and vitriol just makes you look childish and petty. That's not the way to convince people.

Excargodog
03-14-2018, 10:01 PM
Here’s a much more comprehensive guide that your dues paid for. This is what everyone should reference when comparing ourselves to others.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/jetblue2/Contract%20Comparison/JetBlue%20Contract%20Comparison.pdf

Now THIS I agree with. Simply laying out the facts with the pertinent comparison highlighted in yellow. Ninety-one pages without a single over the top, petulant, the sky is falling, hyperbolic, immature, or whiney complaint in it. Clearly a PROFESSIONAL job that has a much better chance of actually convincing people.

PasserOGas
03-15-2018, 04:12 AM
Au contraire:

New York State Household Income | Department of Numbers (http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/new-york/)


Median Household Income By Zip Code in Los Angeles County, California (http://www.laalmanac.com/employment/em12c.php)

Boston Massachusetts Household Income | Department of Numbers (http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/massachusetts/boston/)

Orlando, Florida Economy (http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/florida/orlando)

Fort Lauderdale, Florida Economy (http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/florida/fort_lauderdale)


See what I mean? Hyperbole. You can present the facts or make the case that pilots OUGHT to be paid more than the median family income, without either hyperbole or non factual statements. You needn't be strident or hysterical.

And vilifying someone because they simply request the facts unadorned by hyperbole and vitriol just makes you look childish and petty. That's not the way to convince people.

Those sites point out that the median income in those cities is higher than the US avereage. Not sure your point, except to reenforce that B6's domiciles are expensive and this compounds the effect of our abysmal pay.

After the $$$ spent, years of training and "paying my dues" I couldn't care less about what office workers make. I am not median and niether are you. Stop refering to it. It doesn't apply here.

queue
03-15-2018, 05:21 AM
Au contraire:

New York State Household Income | Department of Numbers (http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/new-york/)


Median Household Income By Zip Code in Los Angeles County, California (http://www.laalmanac.com/employment/em12c.php)

Boston Massachusetts Household Income | Department of Numbers (http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/massachusetts/boston/)

Orlando, Florida Economy (http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/florida/orlando)

Fort Lauderdale, Florida Economy (http://www.bestplaces.net/economy/city/florida/fort_lauderdale)


See what I mean? Hyperbole. You can present the facts or make the case that pilots OUGHT to be paid more than the median family income, without either hyperbole or non factual statements. You needn't be strident or hysterical.

And vilifying someone because they simply request the facts unadorned by hyperbole and vitriol just makes you look childish and petty. That's not the way to convince people.

I see you ignored my post about comparing pilot pay to pilot pay. You seem to be more concerned with comparing pilot pay to the average pay of everyone else. So do you think that medical doctors, engineers, scientists, lawyers, and so on also ought to be paid according to national or regional averages without respect to the value of their profession?

I wonder how you did on SAT reading comprehension because you have seemed to missed the core point twice in a row. You are simply bringing up irrelevant facts in some desperate attempt to connect to and vilify my use of rhetorical technique. Please continue to attack me, I find you very amusing.

AYLflyer
03-15-2018, 05:51 AM
Take you median family income elsewhere, we are not median achievers with median responsibilities. And we don't have median peers.


This is where you don't win/gain any sympathy from the general public.

All of us in the aviation field know we are underpaid compared to our peers. When you talk to people outside of aviation though, nobody is going to care that we're 'underpaid' because we're making an income that many people can only dream of.

Anecdotal but I've had this conversation with friends of friends while at gatherings. I mentioned that life is good while talking about work but we're in the middle of negotiations for a contract and what we're seeking.

Convo basically went "Yeah but don't pilots make really good money?"
Me: "Yes, but a lot of us in different segments of the industry are underpaid compared to places like Delta, so we're all just trying to get on a level ground"
Them "Oh, but you guys still make a lot of money"

It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who don't understand the industry which makes it even harder to get sympathy because we're "only" making $200+/hr, when in reality, we're severely underpaid compared to others.

queue
03-15-2018, 06:22 AM
This is where you don't win/gain any sympathy from the general public.

All of us in the aviation field know we are underpaid compared to our peers. When you talk to people outside of aviation though, nobody is going to care that we're 'underpaid' because we're making an income that many people can only dream of.

Anecdotal but I've had this conversation with friends of friends while at gatherings. I mentioned that life is good while talking about work but we're in the middle of negotiations for a contract and what we're seeking.

Convo basically went "Yeah but don't pilots make really good money?"
Me: "Yes, but a lot of us in different segments of the industry are underpaid compared to places like Delta, so we're all just trying to get on a level ground"
Them "Oh, but you guys still make a lot of money"

It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who don't understand the industry which makes it even harder to get sympathy because we're "only" making $200+/hr, when in reality, we're severely underpaid compared to others.

I don't think pilots, as a collective group, do a good job of explaining their profession and thus the worth of it. I've always felt ALPA needs to take more affirmative action in this arena. For example, ALPA could work with Hollywood to present a positive image of pilots in movies and other media. In exchange, ALPA could offer "free" consulting or other intangibles. The Dept of Defense has been doing this since TV was invented. Public Affairs in any branch of the military is allowed to lend government resources to movie makers provided they create a positive image of the military and to help recruitment. That's why you see so much real military hardware in all those superhero/comic book/cartoon movies (e.g. Transformers). I also think we need to have a series of talking points that we can all whip out to anyone that asks. Politicians do that when they go talk with infotainment companies. That's why they're so effective at telling people what to think politically. I've been wanting to create a researched FAQ article on this topic for quite some time.

Excargodog
03-15-2018, 06:33 AM
I see you ignored my post about comparing pilot pay to pilot pay. You seem to be more concerned with comparing pilot pay to the average pay of everyone else. So do you think that medical doctors, engineers, scientists, lawyers, and so on also ought to be paid according to national or regional averages without respect to the value of their profession?

I wonder how you did on SAT reading comprehension because you have seemed to missed the core point twice in a row. You are simply bringing up irrelevant facts in some desperate attempt to connect to and vilify my use of rhetorical technique. Please continue to attack me, I find you very amusing.


I might wonder the same about you. My point is acting like a whiny entitled millennial - or worse, actually BEING a whiny entitled millennial - is not an effective tactic for convincing the MEDIATOR, who is ultimately the arbiter that must be convinced, of the rightness of yout cause. If you don't get that, then there probably is no help for you and you wind up being an impediment to more reasonable people who can make a reasoned argument without losing their temper and allowing it to descend to name calling and emotionalism.

And yes, I ignored your comment about doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs, because that wasn't the argument you are making. You are not claiming to be a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. If you want to extol the virtues of Jet Blue airline pilots, have at it. Claiming that the wages are "horrible" won't pass muster. Claiming they are,es than they ought to be is a far more salable argument.

Being a jerk about it is seldom helpful.

PasserOGas
03-15-2018, 06:40 AM
I might wonder the same about you. My point is acting like a whiny entitled millennial - or worse, actually BEING a whiny entitled millennial - is not an effective tactic for convincing the MEDIATOR, who is ultimately the arbiter that must be convinced, of the rightness of yout cause. If you don't get that, then there probably is no help for you and you wind up being an impediment to more reasonable people who can make a reasoned argument without losing their temper and allowing it to descend to name calling and emotionalism.

And yes, I ignored your comment about doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs, because that wasn't the argument you are making. You are not claiming to be a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. If you want to extol the virtues of Jet Blue airline pilots, have at it. Claiming that the wages are "horrible" won't pass muster. Claiming they are,es than they ought to be is a far more salable argument.

Being a jerk about it is seldom helpful.

The mediator isn't there to descide the rightness of our cause. He is there to facilitate negotiations and release us when an impasse is reached. It isnt his job to pick our pay scales.

Excargodog
03-15-2018, 06:43 AM
Those sites point out that the median income in those cities is higher than the US avereage. Not sure your point, except to reenforce that B6's domiciles are expensive and this compounds the effect of our abysmal pay.

After the $$$ spent, years of training and "paying my dues" I couldn't care less about what office workers make. I am not median and niether are you. Stop refering to it. It doesn't apply here.

Some areas in those locales are. Some aren't. One can hardly expect to be the most highly paid person in every community unless one is Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos. To do so is an unreasonable expectation. Once you convince the Arbitrator that your demands are unreasonable (extra points for demanding them in a threatening or demeaning manner) you have gone a long way towards LOSING the arbitration.

Now you can either ego-trip and act like a jerk or you can use tactics that actually work. Which would you prefer?

slimothy
03-15-2018, 06:45 AM
This is where you don't win/gain any sympathy from the general public.

All of us in the aviation field know we are underpaid compared to our peers. When you talk to people outside of aviation though, nobody is going to care that we're 'underpaid' because we're making an income that many people can only dream of.

Anecdotal but I've had this conversation with friends of friends while at gatherings. I mentioned that life is good while talking about work but we're in the middle of negotiations for a contract and what we're seeking.

Convo basically went "Yeah but don't pilots make really good money?"
Me: "Yes, but a lot of us in different segments of the industry are underpaid compared to places like Delta, so we're all just trying to get on a level ground"
Them "Oh, but you guys still make a lot of money"

It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who don't understand the industry which makes it even harder to get sympathy because we're "only" making $200+/hr, when in reality, we're severely underpaid compared to others.

Easy answer, “I didn’t work my a$$ off to get to where I am only to be paid 30-40%below market rate.” No, I’m not on food stamps, but I’m also not a 12 year CA. I didn’t break into 6 figures last year. And when I tell people that at cocktail parties, they are appalled because “sh!t, I thought you guys made a ton of money.” Yeah, so did I.

queue
03-15-2018, 06:55 AM
I might wonder the same about you. My point is acting like a whiny entitled millennial - or worse, actually BEING a whiny entitled millennial - is not an effective tactic for convincing the MEDIATOR, who is ultimately the arbiter that must be convinced, of the rightness of yout cause. If you don't get that, then there probably is no help for you and you wind up being an impediment to more reasonable people who can make a reasoned argument without losing their temper and allowing it to descend to name calling and emotionalism.

And yes, I ignored your comment about doctors, lawyers, and Indian Chiefs, because that wasn't the argument you are making. You are not claiming to be a doctor, lawyer, or Indian Chief. If you want to extol the virtues of Jet Blue airline pilots, have at it. Claiming that the wages are "horrible" won't pass muster. Claiming they are,es than they ought to be is a far more salable argument.

Being a jerk about it is seldom helpful.

Firstly, I'm not a millennial. I'm quite old.

Secondly, your previous posts are incongruent with either my initial point or my retort point. You answered a question or point that was never made. Why bring up such logically irrelevant apples to oranges comparisons?

Thirdly, I am not trying to convince an arbitrator. I wouldn't use APC for that. APC is for marketing, just like some of the emails that ALPA sends out. We don't get to make law or exercise law here. However, we do operate in the domain of public opinion and market forces. But I'm sure you realized this....

Why are you so concerned about literary technique given we are not in court? Could it be because you know that BJ pilots are horribly underpaid compared to their market peers and somehow that conflicts with your agenda?

Could it be because you know I am correct to denounce your irrelevant comparison to national averages without respect to profession? Are you content with your subpar pay? Are you content with your subpar work rules and lack of contract? Are you content with the disrespect your employer has for you and your profession?

PLEASE... continue!

Excargodog
03-15-2018, 06:56 AM
The mediator isn't there to descide the rightness of our cause. He is there to facilitate negotiations and release us when an impasse is reached. It isnt his job to pick our pay scales.

If Jet Blue negotiators think the opinion of the mediator is unimportant I understand why the salaries lag the industry.

queue
03-15-2018, 07:07 AM
Some areas in those locales are. Some aren't. One can hardly expect to be the most highly paid person in every community unless one is Bill Gates or Jeff Bezos. To do so is an unreasonable expectation. Once you convince the Arbitrator that your demands are unreasonable (extra points for demanding them in a threatening or demeaning manner) you have gone a long way towards LOSING the arbitration.

Now you can either ego-trip and act like a jerk or you can use tactics that actually work. Which would you prefer?

Again, are you in court?

Also, on the topic of tactics that work, what HASN'T worked is putting out dry statistics to people that are not already sympathetic to pilots. The Daily Show (which I hate being leftist disinformation) is far more effective at accomplishing their objectives than a Senator on CSPAN. Personally, I watch CSPAN but most people don't. Part of our objective ought to be the penetration of the public opinion of pilots. This has to be done using a variety of non-traditional techniques. Claiming I'm using hyperbole is an exaggeration. Hyperbole would be like saying that JB pilots are paid 80% below their peers. Otherwise you are simply comparing literary techniques subjectively. It's not like I'm creating a false narrative claiming Russian collusion.

Perhaps you should be more energized to direct your opposition to your employer. They are the ones saying that JBALPA isn't bringing propositions to the table via company email. Why don't you start tearing apart the latest anti-union email from BJ on its merits. It's quite the work of spin.

Equal pay for equal work.

Excargodog
03-15-2018, 07:08 AM
Firstly, I'm not a millennial. I'm quite old.

Secondly, your previous posts are incongruent with either my initial point or my retort point. You answered a question or point that was never made. Why bring up such logically irrelevant apples to oranges comparisons?

Thirdly, I am not trying to convince an arbitrator. I wouldn't use APC for that. APC is for marketing, just like some of the emails that ALPA sends out. We don't get to make law or exercise law here. However, we do operate in the domain of public opinion and market forces. But I'm sure you realized this....

Why are you so concerned about literary technique given we are not in court? Could it be because you know that BJ pilots are horribly underpaid compared to their market peers and somehow that conflicts with your agenda?

Could it be because you know I am correct to denounce your irrelevant comparison to national averages without respect to profession? Are you content with your subpar pay? Are you content with your subpar work rules and lack of contract? Are you content with the disrespect your employer has for you and your profession?

PLEASE... continue!

I am discussing effective versus ineffective measures of remedying the situation. OK, I get it. APC is probably too obscure a place for the average joe to look, and because of that there is a little (or a lot) of venting going on. Maybe it's even therapeutic.

But the issues should be the subpar work rules and lack of a contract, not red fonts and emotion laden words proclaiming how horrible it is.

Use that sort of argument here - or let it go un rebutted - and you shouldn't be surprised when it is used in a more public forum where it will fall flat resoundingly.

You will never convince anyone of your professionalism by out whining the other guy and few people like people who wrap themselves in victimhood. I paid $40K to the IRS last year despite every legal tax avoidance which I think is more than they deserved to get, but were I to gripe about it to Joe six pack all I'm going to get is "You give me your income and I'll be happy to pay your taxes."

There are arguments that work and there are arguments that just leave you looking like a self-entitled twit. I can't stop you from choosing the latter, but I can opine that it's not your best move.

ZapBrannigan
03-15-2018, 07:26 AM
Off topic, but what the HECK is the deal with SWA’s year 2 through 5 FO pay?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bluedriver
03-15-2018, 07:27 AM
This is where you don't win/gain any sympathy from the general public.

All of us in the aviation field know we are underpaid compared to our peers. When you talk to people outside of aviation though, nobody is going to care that we're 'underpaid' because we're making an income that many people can only dream of.

Anecdotal but I've had this conversation with friends of friends while at gatherings. I mentioned that life is good while talking about work but we're in the middle of negotiations for a contract and what we're seeking.

Convo basically went "Yeah but don't pilots make really good money?"
Me: "Yes, but a lot of us in different segments of the industry are underpaid compared to places like Delta, so we're all just trying to get on a level ground"
Them "Oh, but you guys still make a lot of money"

It's hard to discuss this stuff with people who don't understand the industry which makes it even harder to get sympathy because we're "only" making $200+/hr, when in reality, we're severely underpaid compared to others.

That's weird, and I thought I was just having a discussion with another fellow pilot.

Bluedriver
03-15-2018, 07:36 AM
Off topic, but what the HECK is the deal with SWA’s year 2 through 5 FO pay?!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What do you mean Zap? Welcome back by the way...

queue
03-15-2018, 07:37 AM
APC is probably too obscure a place for the average joe to look, and because of that there is a little (or a lot) of venting going on. Maybe it's even therapeutic.

Perhaps the average Joe is not my intended audience if I'm using APC.

But the issues should be the subpar work rules and lack of a contract, not red fonts and emotion laden words proclaiming how horrible it is.

Well, you could always read everything else I've written. Sometimes sound bites are more effective. You did, after all, react to it.


You will never convince anyone of your professionalism by out whining the other guy and few people like people who wrap themselves in victimhood. I paid $40K to the IRS last year despite every legal tax avoidance which I think is more than they deserved to get, but were I to gripe about it to Joe six pack all I'm going to get is "You give me your income and I'll be happy to pay your taxes."

Would it surprise you that I'm anti-victimhood? If you read much of what I've written, you will see that one of my problems with the pilot group is the victimhood (or Stockholm Syndrome) most pilots operate under. They think they have no power (an artifact of victimhood) when in reality they have all the power as a market force.

I paid $40K to the IRS last year despite every legal tax avoidance which I think is more than they deserved to get, but were I to gripe about it to Joe six pack all I'm going to get is "You give me your income and I'll be happy to pay your taxes." How is it "tax avoidance" if you are merely following the rules put out by the IRS (and also the CFR that constrains and/or empowers the IRS)? You shouldn't be apologetic for finding every tax deduction on the planet. If people vote for bad politicians, they shouldn't be unhappy when someone plays the game better. In our case, I don't think BJ pilots are playing the game well enough. I don't think the industry's pilots are playing the game well enough.

There are arguments that work and there are arguments that just leave you looking like a self-entitled twit. I can't stop you from choosing the latter, but I can opine that it's not your best move.


Maybe you should realize that battle sometimes takes several different attack strategies. The enemy has several centers of gravity. This is why government uses the DIME principle to stock its toolbox (Diplomatic, Information, Military, Economic).

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/39/be/b439beaefb0d02edf77aec85af4f76a9.jpg

atrdriver
03-15-2018, 08:23 AM
That's weird, and I thought I was just having a discussion with another fellow pilot.

Some people here would rather argue why we don't deserve a market rate contract. "Well, Bob the street cleaner only makes 60 grand so we shouldn't complain!" I don't get it either.

Bluedriver
03-15-2018, 08:28 AM
Some people here would rather argue why we don't deserve a market rate contract. "Well, Bob the street cleaner only makes 60 grand so we shouldn't complain!" I don't get it either.

Sometimes I wish I had three hands, so I could triple face-palm.

nuball5
03-15-2018, 08:45 AM
Some people here would rather argue why we don't deserve a market rate contract. "Well, Bob the street cleaner only makes 60 grand so we shouldn't complain!" I don't get it either.

It's only until recently that Airline Pilots have out-earned the general public. Look at wages industry-wide during the lost decade.

PasserOGas
03-15-2018, 09:11 AM
It's only until recently that Airline Pilots have out-earned the general public. Look at wages industry-wide during the lost decade.

Look at wages in the 4 decades before the lost decade. Its time to revert to the mean.



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