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View Full Version : DGI Dead in the water?


Flogger
03-16-2018, 06:27 AM
I have been hearing quite a bit of grumbles that the DGI program is not functioning. The SSP is stalled out with the last few folks not going anywhere and not a single DGI interview is scheduled. With the company able to hire more than they need, there seems to be no incentive to get DGI or any sort of flow going.

Is there something I'm missing?


Two Kings
03-16-2018, 06:48 AM
Any information on the upcoming DGI is pure speculation right now as the company has been very vague in any details since the program was announced.

All we know right now is that it appears the last successful SSP pilots are leaving for Delta in May. Then it should be the ETD pilots, however I believe there are some who havenít even upgraded yet. So DGI candidates could be waiting quite a long time for the chance to interview at Delta. With the busy summer flying season coming up and Endeavor short on Captains what motivation does Endeavor or Delta have to hire Endeavor captains and send them away to Delta?

They would probably much rather hire FOs off the street and keep Endeavor Captains at Endeavor for as long as possible.

HighFlight
03-16-2018, 07:08 AM
Nowhere can I find anything that says the DGI folks have to wait for the ETD guys to upgrade, and conversations with people in key positions say they doubt that will happen. It doesnít make sense to hold back hundreds of DGIs for one or two ETDs who are happy in the right seat (or whatever their reason may be to stay there).

Still, little to no information exists other than what is posted in the company website. No memo to sign and turn in yet, though it is required evidently, no start date, no method of implementation. The first eligible candidates (that I am aware of, there may be someone sooner) will hit the 2-year mark as CA around September. There is still time to iron out the details, but the company really needs to be working this out sooner rather than later.


flydiamond
03-16-2018, 07:17 AM
Nowhere can I find anything that says the DGI folks have to wait for the ETD guys to upgrade, and conversations with people in key positions say they doubt that will happen. It doesn’t make sense to hold back hundreds of DGIs for one or two ETDs who are happy in the right seat (or whatever their reason may be to stay there).

Still, little to no information exists other than what is posted in the company website. No memo to sign and turn in yet, though it is required evidently, no start date, no method of implementation. The first eligible candidates (that I am aware of, there may be someone sooner) will hit the 2-year mark as CA around September. There is still time to iron out the details, but the company really needs to be working this out sooner rather than later.

RE himself has said the DGI will begin this year. Any shenanigans will have a major impact on recruitment and morale which I know the company wouldn’t want.

jules11
03-16-2018, 07:39 AM
RE himself has said the DGI will begin this year. Any shenanigans will have a major impact on recruitment and morale which I know the company wouldnít want.

Damn straight

prex8390
03-16-2018, 08:21 AM
TW said himself DGI isnít going anywhere, if anything ,they want to improve upon it and make sure itís not another SSP. Itís just bureaucracy slowing it up a little right now while they figure out the ETD folks.

Swagship
03-16-2018, 08:23 AM
won't matter when Delta send DGS wingwalkers to fly right seat here and flow over. They will have their own pipeline here and ignore the rest of us.

Unpilot
03-16-2018, 08:27 AM
won't matter when Delta send DGS wingwalkers to fly right seat here and flow over. They will have their own pipeline here and ignore the rest of us.

Careful with negativity ..it will rot you from the inside

Flogger
03-16-2018, 08:40 AM
TW said himself DGI isnít going anywhere, if anything ,they want to improve upon it and make sure itís not another SSP. Itís just bureaucracy slowing it up a little right now while they figure out the ETD folks.

Well, I hope they fix it soon. I feel rotten about all the cheerleading I've done for my ASA buddies.

My recruiting efforts are now at a complete standstill, now that I have learned what a bait & switch this all is.

I am not gonna lie to another pilot for $2,000

172skychicken
03-16-2018, 09:05 AM
I have been hearing quite a bit of grumbles that the DGI program is not functioning. The SSP is stalled out with the last few folks not going anywhere and not a single DGI interview is scheduled. With the company able to hire more than they need, there seems to be no incentive to get DGI or any sort of flow going.

Is there something I'm missing?

This is all moot. Nothing can happen until someone eligible for the DGI has passed the 2 year anniversary mark of their captain upgrade. That has not happened yet.

MoreOrLess
03-16-2018, 09:09 AM
They do need to get this fixed, it is definitely in the best interest of the company. There are people at 9E that have already met the eligibility requirements for the DGI and have been told, by reputable individuals, that DGIs would begin interviewing after the SSP sunsets (take them at their word, you would assume interviews in June). After the initial handful of individuals who are eligible, there would likely be a lull through the summer, but then the early 2015 new hires will begin to be eligible in September-October. I cannot imagine that the company is excited about the prospect of seeing seniority list stagnation from May-December. I know we are trying to get our house in order, and we need bodies in seats, but perception is huge. We may have new hire classes filled until this summer, but if word gets out, it may spook a number of people into going elsewhere.

Additionally, I have been personally told by company execs that DGIs will not have to wait for ETDs that have not upgraded. In fact, they didn't seem to think that we would have to wait for the ETDs...period. I hope Delta doesn't make them go back on their word.

MoreOrLess
03-16-2018, 09:16 AM
This is all moot. Nothing can happen until someone eligible for the DGI has passed the 2 year anniversary mark of their captain upgrade. That has not happened yet.

Actually, there are people that have hit the 2 year anniversary! There are a number of return to work individuals that did not qualify for the SSP. Company execs flat out told them that their previous captain time counted towards the 2 years...so they've been "eligible" for months...if not longer. Even if the previous time didn't count, they are getting very close to their 2 years as captains since returning. Regardless, they are close enough that the company should have something in place.

Flogger
03-16-2018, 09:47 AM
This is all moot. Nothing can happen until someone eligible for the DGI has passed the 2 year anniversary mark of their captain upgrade. That has not happened yet.

Not true. The first folks who are eligible have not interviewed. They are waiting for the last of the SSP and maybe ETD to be exhausted. DGI is false advertising at this point.

Mesabah
03-16-2018, 09:53 AM
Delta won’t back out of its commitment, but the DGI utilization/success rate will be very low. Just a warning.

flydiamond
03-16-2018, 10:14 AM
Delta wonít back out of its commitment, but the DGI utilization/success rate will be very low. Just a warning.

Donít believe it. Anything less than off the street success rate will kill recruitment and crush morale. Theyíre not that dumb.

clueless
03-16-2018, 10:32 AM
I'll try not to sound like I've been sipping the kool aid, but this isn't G7...our management isn't going to "not do" something they say they're gonna do.

whoareyou311
03-16-2018, 10:50 AM
I knew the complaints and ****ing and moaning would eventually begin about this precious DGI program. Don't worry guys you will all have your shot real soon. Just keep up the good work. Keep wearing those hats and making those gate and galley announcements. You are well on your way to delta. :D

Casualinterest
03-16-2018, 11:56 AM
Well, I hope they fix it soon. I feel rotten about all the cheerleading I've done for my ASA buddies.

My recruiting efforts are now at a complete standstill, now that I have learned what a bait & switch this all is.

I am not gonna lie to another pilot for $2,000I'm sorry... Bait and switch?? How so? How can you effectively judge something that hasn't even started yet? Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Want to wait for some facts before we make blanket statements?

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

MoreOrLess
03-16-2018, 12:22 PM
This isn't really about b#*&@ing and complaining, so much as the pilot group pushing for some answers on something they were promised. We are past due for a process to be established for the DGI, that really isn't too much to ask. As a pilot group, we really should be holding our execs' feet to the fire on this. If the company is going to play games with this, perhaps 3 new hires that have class dates in April will reconsider coming here. If there are still no answers by May, perhaps 5 more will go elsewhere. Hopefully, it will force someone's hand, and hopefully we can get something better...for the entire pilot group.

Bartender
03-16-2018, 12:36 PM
Well, I hope they fix it soon. I feel rotten about all the cheerleading I've done for my ASA buddies.

My recruiting efforts are now at a complete standstill, now that I have learned what a bait & switch this all is.

I am not gonna lie to another pilot for $2,000

Grass wasnít greener?

Mesabah
03-16-2018, 01:16 PM
Donít believe it. Anything less than off the street success rate will kill recruitment and crush morale. Theyíre not that dumb.
They don't care about that, they won't make it easy, in fact it will be probably be harder than off the street, because it's a guaranteed interview. Delta doesn't like to be told who they have to interview. They wanted out of the SSP as soon as it started. When the EtD started, we sent dozens of resumes to mainline, of people we wanted to hire, mainline sent back like only a couple we could hire. So only 1 to 2 per class were coming in, and it was a disaster. I think when the first numbers start coming in, this place is going to have the most qualified FO's fleeing to JetBlue, Spirit, etc, causing shortages.

Flogger
03-16-2018, 01:52 PM
Grass wasnít greener?

Everything has been great and I will otherwise recommend the place, but not on the DGI program. I've talked to some folks about how it has all come to a standstill due to delays in the two prior programs, which certainly have not lived up to expectations.

Casualinterest
03-16-2018, 01:59 PM
Everything has been great and I will otherwise recommend the place, but not on the DGI program. I've talked to some folks about how it has all come to a standstill due to delays in the two prior programs, which certainly have not lived up to expectations.I mean, for the most part it's right on track and nothing is delayed... Yet.... Contrary to the arguments, no one hired with the DGI in place is eligible for the interview yet. So that's is no standstill. The discussion about the SSP is another whole can of worms I'm not getting into. But it's inaccurate or disingenuous to say that the program is falling behind, it hasn't started yet.

Like was said earlier though, if we don't have the details by mid summer I'll be much more concerned.

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MoreOrLess
03-16-2018, 02:04 PM
I mean, for the most part it's right on track and nothing is delayed... Yet.... Contrary to the arguments, no one hired with the DGI in place is eligible for the interview yet. So that's is no standstill. The discussion about the SSP is another whole can of worms I'm not getting into. But it's inaccurate or disingenuous to say that the program is falling behind, it hasn't started yet.

Like was said earlier though, if we don't have the details by mid summer I'll be much more concerned.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Casual, I'm going to disagree with you on one point. There are people that are eligible...right now. Have been for a few months. I mentioned this earlier in the thread. The process needs to be established. We shouldn't settle for letting the company buy themselves some time.

Casualinterest
03-16-2018, 04:36 PM
Casual, I'm going to disagree with you on one point. There are people that are eligible...right now. Have been for a few months. I mentioned this earlier in the thread. The process needs to be established. We shouldn't settle for letting the company buy themselves some time.If you're talking return to works yes, but I'm fairly certain anyone hired after the DGI was announced is still short the time.

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HighFlight
03-16-2018, 04:48 PM
How can it be at a standstill, when the SSP folks are still here at EDV? Chillax. When itís August and we still have no info, then you will have room to complain.

Everything has been great and I will otherwise recommend the place, but not on the DGI program. I've talked to some folks about how it [b]has all come to a standstill[/] due to delays in the two prior programs, which certainly have not lived up to expectations.

Avroman
03-16-2018, 04:52 PM
They don't care about that, they won't make it easy, in fact it will be probably be harder than off the street, because it's a guaranteed interview. Delta doesn't like to be told who they have to interview. They wanted out of the SSP as soon as it started. When the EtD started, we sent dozens of resumes to mainline, of people we wanted to hire, mainline sent back like only a couple we could hire. So only 1 to 2 per class were coming in, and it was a disaster. I think when the first numbers start coming in, this place is going to have the most qualified FO's fleeing to JetBlue, Spirit, etc, causing shortages.

Bingo, these aren't programs designed to flow pilots from Endeavor to Delta, they are programs designed to let Delta poach a few that they really like while trying to keep as many locked in at Endeavor as they can.

Abc54321
03-16-2018, 05:14 PM
If you're talking return to works yes, but I'm fairly certain anyone hired after the DGI was announced is still short the time.

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Long time lurker.....I was hired post DGI.....for the second time ....worked for endeavor pre bankruptcy and I had more than 2 years as captain.....I left endeavor about 7 months ago if I had stayed I would have another 2 years as captain after being hired the 2nd time....there were at least 2 others in my second new hire class (2015) with similar stats, not sure if they still work there.....all Iím sayin is there ARE most likely people eligible for DGI on property.

BTW we had an email confirmation stating our previous captain time counted for DGI.....now if the source of that email is binding thatís another question.

Abc54321
03-16-2018, 05:25 PM
If you're talking return to works yes, but I'm fairly certain anyone hired after the DGI was announced is still short the time.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

I was return to work and had the required 2 years as captain on day one of return....if still there I would have an additional 2....others in my class with similar stats......I know of 2 others that also had the time....I canít answer if theyíre still on property

Green Needles
03-17-2018, 01:25 AM
If the past is a predictor of the future... Both EtD and SSP were flops and didn't come close to living up to expectations. I was flat out lied to by the recruiter about DGI, but with nothing in writing, we have no recourse.

Baradium
03-20-2018, 04:40 PM
Casual, I'm going to disagree with you on one point. There are people that are eligible...right now. Have been for a few months. I mentioned this earlier in the thread. The process needs to be established. We shouldn't settle for letting the company buy themselves some time.

No one is eligible for DGI interviews until the SSP program finishes. That was part of the SSP agreement. DGI is immediate movement after interview with the metering happening prior to interview so there can not be any interviews until all the SSP pilots are off property.

While you might not like a lack of information, they have not missed any deadlines or commitments at this point.

Not true. The first folks who are eligible have not interviewed. They are waiting for the last of the SSP and maybe ETD to be exhausted. DGI is false advertising at this point.

There can only be false advertising if it didn't happen as advertised. Since DGI can't happen until SSP pilots are gone at the earliest then as I said above, all deadlines have been met.

PT6flyer
03-20-2018, 06:33 PM
No one is eligible for DGI interviews until the SSP program finishes. That was part of the SSP agreement.

The SSP successor was the EtD, and the EtD was created because the SSP was ending at the time with about a 20% success rate. Before the EtD was completely scrapped the SSP was amended to allow FO's to be interviewed, the FO's did great and created the 50-60% success rate advertised by pilots on this board.

There is NO DGI (formerly the GIP) language in the contract, so the SSP language or succeeding language wouldn't have any mention of the DGI/GIP because it wasn't created.

The company wants a DGI without any contractual teeth, and they aren't open to negotiations from the union. That's fine, because we are now paid the best in the industry (thank's republic) because we have no pilot career progression, and it hurt recruiting until our last pay bump.

vessbot
03-20-2018, 06:48 PM
I've read the DGI document a few times, and to my memory it does not mention any relationship to SSP or ETD.

If there are pilots who were hired under it and have their 2 years as captain in (and whether this is so, is not under agreement on this thread. Should not be too difficult a fact to ascertain) then they are eligible; and if they are not allowed to proceed, then this is due to incompatible agreements with different groups. In other words, the company made a promise it couldn't keep.

Flogger
03-21-2018, 05:00 AM
I've read the DGI document a few times, and to my memory it does not mention any relationship to SSP or ETD.

If there are pilots who were hired under it and have their 2 years as captain in (and whether this is so, is not under agreement on this thread. Should not be too difficult a fact to ascertain) then they are eligible; and if they are not allowed to proceed, then this is due to incompatible agreements with different groups. In other words, the company made a promise it couldn't keep.

The reason I started this thread is that I accidentally had a conversation with someone who will be one of the first bunch to do the DGI. Big paraphrase alert here-This pilot mentioned he was trying to insure he had all his ducks in a row and had made some inquiries to the company about when the interview would be conducted. The answers were incomplete and basically-nobody knows.

Flow ain't gonna happen here. SSP gave DL a good look at the top of the seniority list. We all know DL does not want the booger eaters at the top of ANY regional's seniority list and we know why. Heck, we don't want them here, but we're stuck with them. It's not all bad. I mean, somebody's gotta provide data for those FOQA videos. Recurrent would be so boring without those videos.

To go further-DL doesn't want the booger eaters buried in their own seniority list, but they're stuck with them. It's the crap side of our system, but as a future or perhaps present booger eater, I am grateful for the crap side of the system. It is my god given right to conduct myself in such a manner that I am on every single FOs no-fly list, the Chief Pilot's speed dial and a frequent flyer at the ASAP roundtable.

And since sarcasm recognition is not taught in high school these days...:rolleyes:;):cool:

Milksheikh
03-21-2018, 05:38 AM
Being that there is no contractual language on the dgi other than "no other delta connection carrier will have better career progression than EDV," could guys who had one shot already at the SSP and still able to re interview in 6 months be clogging it up for DGI guys?

In other words, do all the ssp guys have to only be given one chance before they move onto DGI guys? I believe you only get 2 chances at the SSP, so could they start interviewing DGI guys before the SSP guys who can still re-interview in 6 months? Does anyone know the details on this?

I know an SSP guy who didn't get hired the 1st time and keeps extending his 2nd chance interview out. It would suck if that keeps the eligible DGI guys from interviewing.

Casualinterest
03-21-2018, 06:49 AM
I've read the DGI document a few times, and to my memory it does not mention any relationship to SSP or ETD.

If there are pilots who were hired under it and have their 2 years as captain in (and whether this is so, is not under agreement on this thread. Should not be too difficult a fact to ascertain) then they are eligible; and if they are not allowed to proceed, then this is due to incompatible agreements with different groups. In other words, the company made a promise it couldn't keep.No but the SSP and ETD have language in them that they just be completed before other programs start.

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Baradium
03-21-2018, 02:41 PM
The SSP successor was the EtD, and the EtD was created because the SSP was ending at the time with about a 20% success rate. Before the EtD was completely scrapped the SSP was amended to allow FO's to be interviewed, the FO's did great and created the 50-60% success rate advertised by pilots on this board.

There is NO DGI (formerly the GIP) language in the contract, so the SSP language or succeeding language wouldn't have any mention of the DGI/GIP because it wasn't created.

The company wants a DGI without any contractual teeth, and they aren't open to negotiations from the union. That's fine, because we are now paid the best in the industry (thank's republic) because we have no pilot career progression, and it hurt recruiting until our last pay bump.

I don't remember it like that at all. The EtD was created BEFORE the SSP. The initial attempt was for new pilots to have a Delta flow and current pilots nothing. When pilots coming on property were not enough to offset those jumping ship the SSP was created for retention. When FOs still left because the upgrade to get the SSP interview as nonexistent it FOs were added to the SSP. It had nothing to do with success rates and the SSP was not ending at the time. All pilots who were already on property were part of the SSP it is just that when it started FOs were not to interview until after upgrade. The union itself was big on not allowing FOs to SSP interview for a while.

SSP was contractual and negotiated but the EtD and DGI were company programs. Initial SSP interviews involved pilots who were under the impression that they would no be doing the actual Delta interview and were unpleasantly surprised. Where the blame for that lays is up for debate but the pass rate stabilized after not too long. There is no contractual difference between the EtD and DGI and no reason to believe that either programs promises won't be upheld. For one, it would destroy moral and recruiting. Again, there is nothing to indicate the DGI isn't going to happen.

During all of this more changes were made to the company and the concept changed to make it a good place to work and not just offering a Delta carrot to attract movement like what the AMR wholly owned carriers are doing.

aviatorpr
03-21-2018, 07:49 PM
DGI FAQ/Info I found on the new company website
http://www.endeavorair.com/content/dam/endeavor-air/documents/DGI%20FAQ.pdf

Flogger
03-22-2018, 02:50 AM
I hereby regret starting this thread and using the term bait & switch.

The next 7 months will show whether or not the DGI works. Unfortunately the whole thing is in an ambiguous place right now because of the last gasps of the SSP.

I completely sympathize with anyone who is eligible for DGI and being told they will have to wait for the SSP to completely play out, but then being told maybe not. That frustration is what lead to this post.

As far as advice to folks considering coming here for the DGI, my thought is they not bank on it until a demonstrated hire process happens. Come here because it is a great place to work, where you are respected and it has better opportunity and compensation than most regionals.

And get off your butt, fill out the Airlineapps and get hired at DL the old-fashioned way.

To be continued in September. :p

Casualinterest
03-22-2018, 04:24 AM
I hereby regret starting this thread and using the term bait & switch.

The next 7 months will show whether or not the DGI works. Unfortunately the whole thing is in an ambiguous place right now because of the last gasps of the SSP.

I completely sympathize with anyone who is eligible for DGI and being told they will have to wait for the SSP to completely play out, but then being told maybe not. That frustration is what lead to this post.

As far as advice to folks considering coming here for the DGI, my thought is they not bank on it until a demonstrated hire process happens. Come here because it is a great place to work, where you are respected and it has better opportunity and compensation than most regionals.

And get off your butt, fill out the Airlineapps and get hired at DL the old-fashioned way.

To be continued in September. :pThat last part... I didn't bank on the dgi when I came here. My hope has always been to get hired ots. But that being said, it's nice to have for now. I hope we get something better

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theUpsideDown
03-22-2018, 05:52 AM
I don't remember it like that at all. The EtD was created BEFORE the SSP. The initial attempt was for new pilots to have a Delta flow and current pilots nothing. When pilots coming on property were not enough to offset those jumping ship the SSP was created for retention. .

I had to stop quoting there was so much wrong.

SSP was a result of bankruptcy from Pinnacle managment, and Delta's attempt at securing low wages with progression to buy endeavor as a regional staffing company. It was for current captains only.

EtD came after, essentially a failure. Needed 300, got 20, 8 or 7 remain.

Ssp extended to FOs to try and reduce attrition.

USSP created, used for a few months (2?) Cancelled or ended started losing track.

GIP created, then cancelled. GIP only new hires guaranteed the DGI by moving them into program even though the DGI came later through a clever LOA.

DGI created by company. No one gone through, 5 i know of eligibile to interview and have been "promised" 3 different dates.

Mesabah
03-22-2018, 08:31 AM
SSP was contractual and negotiated but the EtD and DGI were company programs. Initial SSP interviews involved pilots who were under the impression that they would no be doing the actual Delta interview and were unpleasantly surprised. Where the blame for that lays is up for debate but the pass rate stabilized after not too long.

I think a lot of pilots looked at the PSA SSP, which is now a flow, that had a 99% success rate. It was basically a hand shake interview over there. That's initially what the union sold the senior guys.

I think Delta is prolonging the DGI as long as possible to buy time before the next exodus.

HighFlight
03-22-2018, 11:47 AM
Bait & switch, yeah, that was a bit off. But donít regret starting the thread. People need to know where we stand, and thus far, there have been a lot of blank stares when we talk to chief pilots and the like about the DGI. Not saying we are in a rush, but it would be nice to have the initial details ironed out BEFORE all SSP folks are off the property. Like... where is the memo we must submit to request the DGI, or a sample format, or to whom it shall be addressed. And when. That would be a great start, IMHO.

Keep the information flowing, I for one appreciate you bringing it up!


I hereby regret starting this thread and using the term bait & switch.

The next 7 months will show whether or not the DGI works. Unfortunately the whole thing is in an ambiguous place right now because of the last gasps of the SSP.

I completely sympathize with anyone who is eligible for DGI and being told they will have to wait for the SSP to completely play out, but then being told maybe not. That frustration is what lead to this post.

As far as advice to folks considering coming here for the DGI, my thought is they not bank on it until a demonstrated hire process happens. Come here because it is a great place to work, where you are respected and it has better opportunity and compensation than most regionals.

And get off your butt, fill out the Airlineapps and get hired at DL the old-fashioned way.

To be continued in September. :p

Casualinterest
03-22-2018, 01:10 PM
Bait & switch, yeah, that was a bit off. But donít regret starting the thread. People need to know where we stand, and thus far, there have been a lot of blank stares when we talk to chief pilots and the like about the DGI. Not saying we are in a rush, but it would be nice to have the initial details ironed out BEFORE all SSP folks are off the property. Like... where is the memo we must submit to request the DGI, or a sample format, or to whom it shall be addressed. And when. That would be a great start, IMHO.

Keep the information flowing, I for one appreciate you bringing it up!I think it's also important to have a little perspective. With or without the dgi we have the absolute best pay in the industry. Our mx is top notch. Our relationship with management is rarely if ever contentious. Upgrade time is marginal. New aircraft on property are almost a certainty from what we're hearing.

Remember that there are only 3 regionals that have better guaranteed career advancement than us. And there is absolutely nothing stopping any of us from applying off the street to DL, Southwest, JB, United, etc, etc, etc...

Absolutely losing our minds over this is just going to cloud the conversation when we try and negotiate something better. (Remember that time you guys were flipping desks over and screaming into the wind over something that hadn't even started yet). Let's try to avoid sounding entitled and whiny, and instead be telling those that matter why it is we earn career advancement every day.

There are a lot worse places to be as a pilot, and a lot worse times to be one.

And side note, if the dgi were for some reason pulled do you honestly think hiring would dry up? New pilots only care about the money, and old 121 guys only care about the bases. There's a reason we've got literally hundreds of applications sitting around from completely qualified individuals, and its not the dgi... It's not the recruiting tool you think it is, but as a stepping stone to negotiate something better, it's clutch.

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HighFlight
03-22-2018, 01:30 PM
If only there were a LIKE button, Casualinterest, Iíd wear it out on that post alone.

Not saying we should ever be content and let new opportunities for advancement pass us by, but EDV pilots are in a GREAT place right now. Hopefully, that continues.

Green Needles
03-22-2018, 01:59 PM
we earn career advancement every day.


This is what DAL management forgets. I'm not saying we should get a job for nothing, but our time here should count for something.

TalkTurkey
03-22-2018, 05:48 PM
I had to stop quoting there was so much wrong.

SSP was a result of bankruptcy from Pinnacle managment, and Delta's attempt at securing low wages with progression to buy endeavor as a regional staffing company. It was for current captains only.

EtD came after, essentially a failure. Needed 300, got 20, 8 or 7 remain.

Ssp extended to FOs to try and reduce attrition.

USSP created, used for a few months (2?) Cancelled or ended started losing track.

GIP created, then cancelled. GIP only new hires guaranteed the DGI by moving them into program even though the DGI came later through a clever LOA.

DGI created by company. No one gone through, 5 i know of eligibile to interview and have been "promised" 3 different dates.

If you think pinnacle management was the cause for bankruptcy, then I need to stop your quote immediately because that is very much mistaken.

HighFlight
03-22-2018, 07:05 PM
Hey brother, I think you may have read that wrong (or maybe I did?). I read it as it came about via Pinnacle management after (or because of) the BK.

If you think pinnacle management was the cause for bankruptcy, then I need to stop your quote immediately because that is very much mistaken.

theUpsideDown
03-23-2018, 01:52 AM
If you think pinnacle management was the cause for bankruptcy, then I need to stop your quote immediately because that is very much mistaken.

Pinnacle management caused the bankruptcy of Pinnacle Airlines.

Change my mind.

Avroman
03-23-2018, 06:24 AM
Pinnacle management caused the bankruptcy of Pinnacle Airlines.

Change my mind.

Either Pinnacle management were the most inept idiots ever to sit in a board room or they were following marching orders from a higher master... either way led to a path of rapid bankruptcy.

TalkTurkey
03-23-2018, 06:54 AM
Pinnacle management caused the bankruptcy of Pinnacle Airlines.

Change my mind.

No itís too much to write and Iím too lazy to write it. However, this has been greatly discussed already and if you search my comments for it, youíll find it in detail. In a nutshell, the bankruptcy was planned by Delta to offload unwanted assets and contracts. Typical business practice.

theUpsideDown
03-23-2018, 06:56 AM
Either Pinnacle management were the most inept idiots ever to sit in a board room or they were following marching orders from a higher master... either way led to a path of rapid bankruptcy.

Stop, I'm waiting for all the conspiracy theories even though the SEC and chpt 13 filings all show the opposite. Pinnacle bet big on Colgan and failed, the board replaced Trenary when he sunk them deeper into debt buying Mesaba because it gave him cash he needed and didn't need to pay anything for first 6 months, and the following CEO and CFO wouldn't lie on the books and couldn't get the pilots to buy onto needing to take a paycut to build up cash and pay for the stupid downtown building.

theUpsideDown
03-23-2018, 07:04 AM
No itís too much to write and Iím too lazy to write it. However, this has been greatly discussed already and if you search my comments for it, youíll find it in detail. In a nutshell, the bankruptcy was planned by Delta to offload unwanted assets and contracts. Typical business practice.

You guys never fail to dissapoint. Delta and Pinnacle conspired to force chpt 13 out from under the investors (owners). Boy if only there was some public process by way of a bankruptcy filing that would have shown all that. Thankfully they hid it with years of evidence of omiting their cash position to investors and only pointing to future growth to ease complaints every quarter when returns hadnt materialized

I agree it's typical for small minded airlines to turn big and run out of tricks and talent to run it. It's less common to have employees still buy into an defaulted CEO years later whose greatest claim to fame today is being appointed assistant manager of a senior advisory console. I figure 2 more years amd someone will let him touch their airline with a CFO he has no control over. I still remember when "any minute Phil is gonna be a big exec at Delta". Still waiting.

Chupacabras
03-23-2018, 08:11 AM
I remember a cockpit conversation relating to the few pilots who were out on extended leave, medical, or military leave who were eligible for the SSP and thus needed to have been extended an opportunity to interview before the SSP could officially end and the DGI could begin. Anyone have information on this? Will those pilots be holding up the progression of the DGI?

msprj2
03-23-2018, 08:19 AM
I remember a cockpit conversation relating to the few pilots who were out on extended leave, medical, or military leave who were eligible for the SSP and thus needed to have been extended an opportunity to interview before the SSP could officially end and the DGI could begin. Anyone have information on this? Will those pilots be holding up the progression of the DGI?

Its hard to imagine Delta giving someone a fair shake who's been
on a long term leave.

Avroman
03-23-2018, 09:22 AM
Its hard to imagine Delta giving someone a fair shake who's been
on a long term leave.

If they are doing flying because of a mil leave or the extended LOA deal from the bankruptcy, they probably have a better shot because they are currently flying and taking them wouldn't hurt staffing here any. Med leave (and not flying) would probably be a tough sell though.

Blueskies21
03-25-2018, 05:36 AM
I remember a cockpit conversation relating to the few pilots who were out on extended leave, medical, or military leave who were eligible for the SSP and thus needed to have been extended an opportunity to interview before the SSP could officially end and the DGI could begin. Anyone have information on this? Will those pilots be holding up the progression of the DGI?The only chance left at the SSP is pilots out on medical leave.

Leaves of absence and Military had to indicate their desire to participate by July 1, 2016.

Since the language in bridge agreement 3 for pilots on medical leaves includes a process for their participation after the sunset of the SSP, I think it is reasonable to assume pilots on medical leaves won't hold up the end of the SSP.

Unpilot
03-25-2018, 10:36 AM
Lets see I have about 2.5 years left....never put in for SSP..or what ever it was...wonder what would happen if I did now.

randomroute
03-25-2018, 05:30 PM
What WE KNOW about the DGI;

1) Captains with two years of service get an interview
2) DGI's will start sometime this year
3)There are no stipulations or special requirements other than maintaining captaincy
4)The latest vacancy has afforded "street captain"-esque awards

Any further new hires with qualifying time will receive an interview at Delta ahead of any first officers already employed that are waiting to upgrade. THIS COMPROMISES THE DGI ARRANGEMENT. The MEC has an obligation at this point to clarify the terms of this arrangement. I understand the mysticism surrounding the 'where' and 'when'....but the basic 'what' hasn't been defined. Air Wisconsin/XJT-ASA/Compass and others that have made the EDV jump are poised to benefit from the DGI before most first officers (who have been employed at 9E for a year and some months time).

The DGI has already failed 9E pilots.

Casualinterest
03-25-2018, 05:53 PM
What WE KNOW about the DGI;

1) Captains with two years of service get an interview
2) DGI's will start sometime this year
3)There are no stipulations or special requirements other than maintaining captaincy
4)The latest vacancy has afforded "street captain"-esque awards

Any further new hires with qualifying time will receive an interview at Delta ahead of any first officers already employed that are waiting to upgrade. THIS COMPROMISES THE DGI ARRANGEMENT. The MEC has an obligation at this point to clarify the terms of this arrangement. I understand the mysticism surrounding the 'where' and 'when'....but the basic 'what' hasn't been defined. Air Wisconsin/XJT-ASA/Compass and others that have made the EDV jump are poised to benefit from the DGI before most first officers (who have been employed at 9E for a year and some months time).

The DGI has already failed 9E pilots.He's an angry elf.....




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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180326/0beb8fa6164c3e9e5ccac5bef392b634.jpg

vessbot
03-25-2018, 06:13 PM
What WE KNOW about the DGI;

1) Captains with two years of service get an interview
2) DGI's will start sometime this year
3)There are no stipulations or special requirements other than maintaining captaincy
4)The latest vacancy has afforded "street captain"-esque awards

Any further new hires with qualifying time will receive an interview at Delta ahead of any first officers already employed that are waiting to upgrade. THIS COMPROMISES THE DGI ARRANGEMENT. The MEC has an obligation at this point to clarify the terms of this arrangement. I understand the mysticism surrounding the 'where' and 'when'....but the basic 'what' hasn't been defined. Air Wisconsin/XJT-ASA/Compass and others that have made the EDV jump are poised to benefit from the DGI before most first officers (who have been employed at 9E for a year and some months time).

The DGI has already failed 9E pilots.

http://www.endeavorair.com/documents/Endeavor_Air-DGI_Program_FAQ.PDF

c. Subject to all pre-requisites and limitations contained herein, interviews for eligible
pilots will be provided in seniority order.


(Bolding mine)

This seems to imply that even if a more junior pilot reaches qualified status before a senior pilot, he/she will still be put behind the senior pilot in the metering line.

And if there's no metering (so few people per month are putting their request in that Delta is taking everybody) then the senior unqualified pilot is not harmed, because he'll be taken as soon as he becomes qualified.

crjscum
03-25-2018, 06:22 PM
What WE KNOW about the DGI;

1) Captains with two years of service get an interview
2) DGI's will start sometime this year
3)There are no stipulations or special requirements other than maintaining captaincy
4)The latest vacancy has afforded "street captain"-esque awards

Any further new hires with qualifying time will receive an interview at Delta ahead of any first officers already employed that are waiting to upgrade. THIS COMPROMISES THE DGI ARRANGEMENT. The MEC has an obligation at this point to clarify the terms of this arrangement. I understand the mysticism surrounding the 'where' and 'when'....but the basic 'what' hasn't been defined. Air Wisconsin/XJT-ASA/Compass and others that have made the EDV jump are poised to benefit from the DGI before most first officers (who have been employed at 9E for a year and some months time).

The DGI has already failed 9E pilots.

The MEC has no obligation to clarify something that wasn't bargained for, wasn't agreed upon, and wasn't signed into the contract.

HighFlight
03-25-2018, 06:57 PM
But... a pilot is only qualified if they have the 2 years as CA. So 10 pilots hired last June 2017 and upgraded to CA in September 2017 would be eligible to DGI in September of 2019. Meanwhile, a FO hired in Spetember 2016 who hasnít upgraded yet wonít be eligible for DGI until about September 2020 (roughly).

However, those 10 newhire CAs from June 2017, even though their seniority numbers are lower than the Sep 2016 FO, could still go to the interview IN SENIORITY ORDER (amongst the 10 of them) and ďbypassĒ the FO because they were eligible before him.

At least thatís one interpretation of the wording. Yours is another. Guess the company will have to decide which it is. In your scenario, one FO who refuses to upgrade would be holding up a large part of the pilot group, so I donít really see it happening that way. We shall see.

http://www.endeavorair.com/documents/Endeavor_Air-DGI_Program_FAQ.PDF



(Bolding mine)

This seems to imply that even if a more junior pilot reaches qualified status before a senior pilot, he/she will still be put behind the senior pilot in the metering line.

And if there's no metering (so few people per month are putting their request in that Delta is taking everybody) then the senior unqualified pilot is not harmed, because he'll be taken as soon as he becomes qualified.

HighFlight
03-25-2018, 06:58 PM
Correct. This is NOT an ALPA issue, they have nothing to do with it, other than hoping (as all of us do) that it bodes well for them personally.

The MEC has no obligation to clarify something that wasn't bargained for, wasn't agreed upon, and wasn't signed into the contract.

vessbot
03-25-2018, 09:28 PM
But... a pilot is only qualified if they have the 2 years as CA. So 10 pilots hired last June 2017 and upgraded to CA in September 2017 would be eligible to DGI in September of 2019. Meanwhile, a FO hired in Spetember 2016 who hasnít upgraded yet wonít be eligible for DGI until about September 2020 (roughly).

However, those 10 newhire CAs from June 2017, even though their seniority numbers are lower than the Sep 2016 FO, could still go to the interview IN SENIORITY ORDER (amongst the 10 of them) and ďbypassĒ the FO because they were eligible before him.

At least thatís one interpretation of the wording. Yours is another. Guess the company will have to decide which it is. In your scenario, one FO who refuses to upgrade would be holding up a large part of the pilot group, so I donít really see it happening that way. We shall see.

That FO, in Sep. 2020, becomes eligible and gets in line in front of any of the 10 who still haven't interviewed, as he's more senior than them.

Before he becomes eligible, the 10 go in order of seniority of those who are eligible at that time. So while they're eligible and he's not, they bypass him. (Same as they currently do for who gets to upgrade. And when he does upgrade, he jumps back up ahead of them on the bid list.)

No one is held up in my scenario. Someone who doesn't upgrade (no matter if it's because he's not eligible, or he voluntarily refuses) just gets bypassed by those who do. But when/if he does upgrade, he gets back into the middle of the line.

I don't see a discrepancy between what I wrote and what you wrote. (Other than that their seniority numbers will be higher, not lower; higher number = less senior. I assume that's just a mixup.)

HighFlight
03-25-2018, 10:26 PM
But in your scenario, the 10 can’t go because the one is senior ot them. In my scenario, the 10 are gone before the one ever interviews (assuming they pass the interview, of course). With the DGI, there is no pool, remember. A successful interview means they leave EDV in the next month or two.

But I agree, when the one is finally eligible, he will jump ahead of of anyone junior to him who may already be eligible, but who have not been called to interview yet.

That FO, in Sep. 2020, becomes eligible and gets in line in front of any of the 10 who still haven't interviewed, as he's more senior than them.

Before he becomes eligible, the 10 go in order of seniority of those who are eligible at that time. So while they're eligible and he's not, they bypass him. (Same as they currently do for who gets to upgrade. And when he does upgrade, he jumps back up ahead of them on the bid list.)

No one is held up in my scenario. Someone who doesn't upgrade (no matter if it's because he's not eligible, or he voluntarily refuses) just gets bypassed by those who do. But when/if he does upgrade, he gets back into the middle of the line.

I don't see a discrepancy between what I wrote and what you wrote. (Other than that their seniority numbers will be higher, not lower; higher number = less senior. I assume that's just a mixup.)

vessbot
03-26-2018, 09:06 AM
But in your scenario, the 10 can’t go because the one is senior ot them. In my scenario, the 10 are gone before the one ever interviews (assuming they pass the interview, of course). With the DGI, there is no pool, remember. A successful interview means they leave EDV in the next month or two.


When I talk about the metering line, I'm talking about the line for the interview, not for the job. As you say, after the interview they immediately get the job like an off the street hire.

For my scenario, I said "Before he becomes eligible, the 10 go in order of seniority of those who are eligible at that time." Since the 1 is not eligible at that time, he does not go, and no one is held up. The 10 get in line for their interviews. What happens next depends on how long and slow the metering line is, compared to the rate that people are getting in it. When the 1 gets eligible and gets in it, maybe all 10 have interviewed, maybe some of them have, maybe none of them have. In all 3 cases, he gets somewhere in the middle (or maybe even all the way in the front) of the line as dictated by his seniority number. The 10 are not held up, and the 1's seniority is honored.

There's no difference that I can tell between my scenario and yours. As an analogy, my scenario works just like captain upgrades currently do.

Getting 1000/2500 = Captain + 2 years. (Eligibility)
Bidding a CA position = Requesting your DGI. (The time you get in line)
The group of all eligible FO's who have bid for upgrade = The line
Getting awarded CA = Going to the interview

or another one, that's really more relevant these days:

Getting 1000/2500 = Captain + 2 years. (Eligibility)
Bidding a CA position = Requesting your DGI. (The time you get in line)
The monthly bid order for [base] [fleet] CA position = The line

Everybody understands the interaction between seniority and eligibility for upgrades. I can only see it as being the same.

Theoden
03-27-2018, 08:41 AM
I'm sure that the DGI will go as generally described, since there is no advantage to DL to do otherwise. Best guess on the take rate is similar to the end of the SSP.

One interesting problem with basing it on Captain upgrade is that anything which slows captain attrition slows the rate of interview. For instance supposing that we had a stable airline with 1000 captains and all of them were lifers; in that scenario there be no DGI interviews unless a captain retired. Now suppose that we had 500 lifers and 500 leaving (in 1 year for math's sake), in that case there would be the potential for 500 interviews per year. What gets really interesting is what happens to the unsuccessful interviewees. If 1/2 were unsuccessful and then became lifers, then the following year there would be a maximum potential of 250 upgrades. If half of them became lifers then the 3rd year the max would be 125 and so on.

Of course the real numbers will be different since many who don't get DL will get something else and leave. Nevertheless, 9E has A LOT of captains who are not leaving in the next 5 years and they will slow the interview rate. Right now our upgrade rate is based on growth, so if the growth stops then the DGI is greatly diminished. If the growth stops and the DGI take rate is 1/2, then the DGI will slow because the upgrades will slow.

The point is that the DGI could be a huge win for 9E pilots or it could be a meaningless floperoo depending on these variables EVEN IF it is 100% honored as promised.

Baradium
03-27-2018, 01:33 PM
I'm sure that the DGI will go as generally described, since there is no advantage to DL to do otherwise. Best guess on the take rate is similar to the end of the SSP.

One interesting problem with basing it on Captain upgrade is that anything which slows captain attrition slows the rate of interview. For instance supposing that we had a stable airline with 1000 captains and all of them were lifers; in that scenario there be no DGI interviews unless a captain retired. Now suppose that we had 500 lifers and 500 leaving (in 1 year for math's sake), in that case there would be the potential for 500 interviews per year. What gets really interesting is what happens to the unsuccessful interviewees. If 1/2 were unsuccessful and then became lifers, then the following year there would be a maximum potential of 250 upgrades. If half of them became lifers then the 3rd year the max would be 125 and so on.

Of course the real numbers will be different since many who don't get DL will get something else and leave. Nevertheless, 9E has A LOT of captains who are not leaving in the next 5 years and they will slow the interview rate. Right now our upgrade rate is based on growth, so if the growth stops then the DGI is greatly diminished. If the growth stops and the DGI take rate is 1/2, then the DGI will slow because the upgrades will slow.

The point is that the DGI could be a huge win for 9E pilots or it could be a meaningless floperoo depending on these variables EVEN IF it is 100% honored as promised.

You're making presumptions that are not possible with the DGI as written. The interview rate is to be adjusted to ensure an amount of movement to DAL, so if the acceptance rate is lower they have to do more interviews to meet the requirement. What you're proposing is that they would exhaust all captain interviews while taking such a low amount that there wouldn't be any DGI pilots left eligible, which would destroy the program and it's usefulness. This program is a recruiting tool, it actually has to be an advantage to work as such.

theUpsideDown
03-27-2018, 01:58 PM
You're making presumptions that are not possible with the DGI as written. The interview rate is to be adjusted to ensure an amount of movement to DAL, so if the acceptance rate is lower they have to do more interviews to meet the requirement. What you're proposing is that they would exhaust all captain interviews while taking such a low amount that there wouldn't be any DGI pilots left eligible, which would destroy the program and it's usefulness. This program is a recruiting tool, it actually has to be an advantage to work as such.

It does nothing now. If it's for recruitment it isnt working, thats why we get paid the most.

Theoden
03-28-2018, 01:09 PM
You're making presumptions that are not possible with the DGI as written. The interview rate is to be adjusted to ensure an amount of movement to DAL, so if the acceptance rate is lower they have to do more interviews to meet the requirement. What you're proposing is that they would exhaust all captain interviews while taking such a low amount that there wouldn't be any DGI pilots left eligible, which would destroy the program and it's usefulness. This program is a recruiting tool, it actually has to be an advantage to work as such.

Stop and think about what you are saying. What presumptions are not possible? Growth rate affects upgrades: true. Percentage of captains who stay at 9E effects upgrades: true. Interviewees not selected by DL affects CA attrition: likely. DGI currently requires you to be a captain: true.

Slowing the interview rate diminishes the value of the program. Increasing the interview rate is capped by the 2 year captain requirement. Now, there's nothing to say they cannot change it, for instance removing the CA requirement entirely, however that also will have consequences.

TalkTurkey
03-30-2018, 08:34 AM
Stop and think about what you are saying. What presumptions are not possible? Growth rate affects upgrades: true. Percentage of captains who stay at 9E effects upgrades: true. Interviewees not selected by DL affects CA attrition: likely. DGI currently requires you to be a captain: true.

Slowing the interview rate diminishes the value of the program. Increasing the interview rate is capped by the 2 year captain requirement. Now, there's nothing to say they cannot change it, for instance removing the CA requirement entirely, however that also will have consequences.

I was told yesterday by a sim checker that DL is still trying to work on a flow for 9E to new hires only.

teddy3412
03-30-2018, 08:40 AM
I was told yesterday by a sim checker that DL is still trying to work on a flow for 9E to new hires only.

So...if we already have worked here a year then screw you?

TalkTurkey
03-30-2018, 08:42 AM
So...if we already have worked here a year then screw you?

or 10, 20, 30, or even a day. Out with you. that's what the sim checker says dl says.

saab340driver
03-30-2018, 10:53 AM
I was told yesterday by a sim checker that DL is still trying to work on a flow for 9E to new hires only.
Lol. Would never happen. That would destroy moral with the current pilot group. What you will see within 18-24 months is a staple with fences.

Swagship
03-30-2018, 10:56 AM
Lol. Would never happen. That would destroy moral with the current pilot group. What you will see within 18-24 months is a staple with fences.

A staple will never happen until DAL needs pilots. The staffing problem is at RJs, not majors. If they need bodies here, hire them in college, send them to an RJ partner, then flow them up.

Mesabah
03-30-2018, 11:21 AM
I was told yesterday by a sim checker that DL is still trying to work on a flow for 9E to new hires only.
Yes, it's true, and it would also extend to the people who have the DGI. It's terms the union could never agree to, and management knows that. So I really wouldn't put too much faith in it.

A staple will never happen until DAL needs pilots. The staffing problem is at RJs, not majors. If they need bodies here, hire them in college, send them to an RJ partner, then flow them up.
Yes, a staple will never happen. The issue is the college program, Delta wants to hire its pilots directly from college, and give them a flow. The problem is contractually they have to give us similar. However, Delta does not want anyone who was turned down in the SSP, or went to Delta, was terminated, and sent back here.

flydiamond
03-30-2018, 11:32 AM
Yes, it's true, and it would also extend to the people who have the DGI. It's terms the union could never agree to, and management knows that. So I really wouldn't put too much faith in it.

Well then maybe itís looking like the DGI will at least have a better success rate than the SSP?

Mesabah
03-30-2018, 11:40 AM
Well then maybe it’s looking like the DGI will at least have a better success rate than the SSP?
No, I don't think that is the case, what management wants, and what HR will do are two separate things. If it were up to management, we would already have a flow. However, management has made it clear they don't want to upset the process of off the street hiring. Richard Anderson couldn't even get some pilots hired.

Datsun
03-30-2018, 02:47 PM
Along with time as CA, is a 4-year degree still one of the eligibility requirements?

Casualinterest
03-30-2018, 03:51 PM
Along with time as CA, is a 4-year degree still one of the eligibility requirements?Yes. Must meet all of Delta's hiring criteria

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Mesabah
03-30-2018, 04:45 PM
Yes. Must meet all of Delta's hiring criteria

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I've heard from enough independent people to suspect the recruiters were saying otherwise. However, the paperwork new hires were given on the DGI states it's required.

theUpsideDown
03-31-2018, 04:27 AM
I've heard from enough independent people to suspect the recruiters were saying otherwise. However, the paperwork new hires were given on the DGI states it's required.

I think they sold the dgi before they figured out what it was. When i came back we had one guy in new hire class still convinced he was EtD not gip

Swagship
03-31-2018, 07:40 AM
I think they sold the dgi before they figured out what it was. When i came back we had one guy in new hire class still convinced he was EtD not gip

"Hey, when are you going to get GIPed??"

theUpsideDown
03-31-2018, 08:22 AM
"Hey, when are you going to get GIPed??"

The company is on the third promised time frame now (which shows you how serious they take it). But that's what happens in fairy tales.

Honestly all this is crap. Anyone who can fly will be at the majors in five years or less from today if they want to. If you're the junior bastard on the next list for some unfortunate reason your combined pay and qol will be greater than 100% of the regional pilots 3 yrs after you move on (yes you'll work weekends and holidays). You might be furlough fodder but I doubt it.

These dgi/flow programs are actually meant to keep guys in the regionals for an additional year or two. When endeavor offers something like a DGI they are ignoring the future where pilots here will be saying to themselves, "United and American want me now, six months into being a captain but i could wait another 1.5 years and have a shot at Delta. But now I've gotta say no to these legacy guys praying Delta won't do me like they've done before".

Of course the dgi will change and morph. That's why the company doesn't want it in writing. They've got to balance the need for pilots to remain at endeavor for another year or two instead of jumping somewhere else.

The best thing the union can do is continue to push the company to improve endeavor and stay ahead so we're never in the same dec 2014 position again. Endeavor management seems to understand all this, it's just getting Delta management to agree.

If you all want meaningful guaranteed career progression i politely suggest you stop defending or attacking the dgi. It is a fantasy right now, with no contractual meaning except for a privileged few protected by a clever LOA. Whenever someone brings it up, simply reply that you are too old for fairy tales.

Don't address it, stop playing lawyer by quoting non binding memos. If it comes up in discussion just move the conversation on to something else. The sooner EDV management can make DAL management understand the excitement level of the DGI is null, the sooner we will get something meaninful.

MountainWaves
03-31-2018, 08:37 AM
If they are doing flying because of a mil leave or the extended LOA deal from the bankruptcy, they probably have a better shot because they are currently flying and taking them wouldn't hurt staffing here any. Med leave (and not flying) would probably be a tough sell though.

Multiple HIMS program hires, highest pass rate I'm aware of.

Green Needles
03-31-2018, 12:09 PM
The company is on the third promised time frame now (which shows you how serious they take it). But that's what happens in fairy tales.

Honestly all this is crap. Anyone who can fly will be at the majors in five years or less from today if they want to. If you're the junior bastard on the next list for some unfortunate reason your combined pay and qol will be greater than 100% of the regional pilots 3 yrs after you move on (yes you'll work weekends and holidays). You might be furlough fodder but I doubt it.

These dgi/flow programs are actually meant to keep guys in the regionals for an additional year or two. When endeavor offers something like a DGI they are ignoring the future where pilots here will be saying to themselves, "United and American want me now, six months into being a captain but i could wait another 1.5 years and have a shot at Delta. But now I've gotta say no to these legacy guys praying Delta won't do me like they've done before".

Of course the dgi will change and morph. That's why the company doesn't want it in writing. They've got to balance the need for pilots to remain at endeavor for another year or two instead of jumping somewhere else.

The best thing the union can do is continue to push the company to improve endeavor and stay ahead so we're never in the same dec 2014 position again. Endeavor management seems to understand all this, it's just getting Delta management to agree.

If you all want meaningful guaranteed career progression i politely suggest you stop defending or attacking the dgi. It is a fantasy right now, with no contractual meaning except for a privileged few protected by a clever LOA. Whenever someone brings it up, simply reply that you are too old for fairy tales.

Don't address it, stop playing lawyer by quoting non binding memos. If it comes up in discussion just move the conversation on to something else. The sooner EDV management can make DAL management understand the excitement level of the DGI is null, the sooner we will get something meaninful.

Wisely worded.

Avroman
04-02-2018, 11:37 AM
Multiple HIMS program hires, highest pass rate I'm aware of.

Does that program put you out of flying or are you still able to fly during it?

Casualinterest
04-02-2018, 05:24 PM
Does that program put you out of flying or are you still able to fly during it?My interaction with the program was as a sponsor for a friend and his was to get his medical back after losing it. So I think that's the general idea. Hence, no flying. But that's just what I've seen

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MountainWaves
04-02-2018, 08:43 PM
Does that program put you out of flying or are you still able to fly during it?

Pulls your medical so you're not flying.

Yumyum
04-02-2018, 08:49 PM
The company is on the third promised time frame now (which shows you how serious they take it). But that's what happens in fairy tales.

Honestly all this is crap. Anyone who can fly will be at the majors in five years or less from today if they want to. If you're the junior bastard on the next list for some unfortunate reason your combined pay and qol will be greater than 100% of the regional pilots 3 yrs after you move on (yes you'll work weekends and holidays). You might be furlough fodder but I doubt it.

These dgi/flow programs are actually meant to keep guys in the regionals for an additional year or two. When endeavor offers something like a DGI they are ignoring the future where pilots here will be saying to themselves, "United and American want me now, six months into being a captain but i could wait another 1.5 years and have a shot at Delta. But now I've gotta say no to these legacy guys praying Delta won't do me like they've done before".

Of course the dgi will change and morph. That's why the company doesn't want it in writing. They've got to balance the need for pilots to remain at endeavor for another year or two instead of jumping somewhere else.

The best thing the union can do is continue to push the company to improve endeavor and stay ahead so we're never in the same dec 2014 position again. Endeavor management seems to understand all this, it's just getting Delta management to agree.

If you all want meaningful guaranteed career progression i politely suggest you stop defending or attacking the dgi. It is a fantasy right now, with no contractual meaning except for a privileged few protected by a clever LOA. Whenever someone brings it up, simply reply that you are too old for fairy tales.

Don't address it, stop playing lawyer by quoting non binding memos. If it comes up in discussion just move the conversation on to something else. The sooner EDV management can make DAL management understand the excitement level of the DGI is null, the sooner we will get something meaninful.

Iíll simplify it. If Delta is your goal...donít work for Endeavor. The end!

Casualinterest
04-03-2018, 06:09 AM
Iíll simplify it. If Delta is your goal...donít work for Endeavor. The end!There's nothing simple about it. I know several people here with ots hires this year. I imagine with a strong resume and good record (plus an internal rec) you have just a decent shot as someone from another regional

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Baradium
04-04-2018, 02:50 AM
There's nothing simple about it. I know several people here with ots hires this year. I imagine with a strong resume and good record (plus an internal rec) you have just a decent shot as someone from another regional

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My read on it is you get the exact same shot as anyone else OTS as well as having the interview programs to help get your foot in the door. The interview panels are not interested in screwing people to help Endeavor staff.

Casualinterest
04-04-2018, 07:48 AM
My read on it is you get the exact same shot as anyone else OTS as well as having the interview programs to help get your foot in the door. The interview panels are not interested in screwing people to help Endeavor staff.I agree!

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Avroman
04-04-2018, 11:11 AM
My read on it is you get the exact same shot as anyone else OTS as well as having the interview programs to help get your foot in the door. The interview panels are not interested in screwing people to help Endeavor staff.

There were some awfully shady patterns when it came to hiring sim instructors and check airman... sure smelled of "gentlemen's agreements" depending on Endeavor's training needs at the time

Baradium
04-04-2018, 11:59 AM
There were some awfully shady patterns when it came to hiring sim instructors and check airman... sure smelled of "gentlemen's agreements" depending on Endeavor's training needs at the time

There was a lot of variation in the people who were sim instructors and check airmen at least on the Memphis end of things. I understand the legacy XJ program was much better, but depending on who remained check airmen there were a good number who had been regional lifers and the lifers as a whole had a hard time.

Overall there were people I was somewhat surprised got it and those who I thought really should have that didn't. There are a good number I really think should have gotten the nod, but being a LCA didn't seem to be a factor in the mix.

HighFlight
04-04-2018, 01:12 PM
My time at EDV is short, but I agree with the sentiment that a lot of great people got passed over that would have been assets for DL. Perhaps they did not prepare well enough, or the HR panel was tougher that day (stories of panel A passing everyone and panel B failing everyone are out there). I've had a couple admit to me that they did not prepare well enough, and took responsibility for losing the job.

But sitting back and watching some truly good pilots, mentors, and just damn good people getting told that they weren't DL material has caused me not to even put in my app. Might seem silly to those who go or are dying to get there, but I'd rather not be a part of a culture that turns such people away.

There was a lot of variation in the people who were sim instructors and check airmen at least on the Memphis end of things. I understand the legacy XJ program was much better, but depending on who remained check airmen there were a good number who had been regional lifers and the lifers as a whole had a hard time.

Overall there were people I was somewhat surprised got it and those who I thought really should have that didn't. There are a good number I really think should have gotten the nod, but being a LCA didn't seem to be a factor in the mix.

Casualinterest
04-04-2018, 02:47 PM
My time at EDV is short, but I agree with the sentiment that a lot of great people got passed over that would have been assets for DL. Perhaps they did not prepare well enough, or the HR panel was tougher that day (stories of panel A passing everyone and panel B failing everyone are out there). I've had a couple admit to me that they did not prepare well enough, and took responsibility for losing the job.

But sitting back and watching some truly good pilots, mentors, and just damn good people getting told that they weren't DL material has caused me not to even put in my app. Might seem silly to those who go or are dying to get there, but I'd rather not be a part of a culture that turns such people away.

I wouldn't say it's quite that bad, but I agree that it's made me reevaluate my impressions of Delta. They (my impressions) have evolved a bit after flying with countless double no's. Virtually all of them I'd trust with my family in the back, and I can't imagine they all interviewed that poorly. Victims of timing and circumstance most likely.

All in all it's been enlightening and made me alter my career planning approach significantly.

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Baradium
04-04-2018, 05:32 PM
My time at EDV is short, but I agree with the sentiment that a lot of great people got passed over that would have been assets for DL. Perhaps they did not prepare well enough, or the HR panel was tougher that day (stories of panel A passing everyone and panel B failing everyone are out there). I've had a couple admit to me that they did not prepare well enough, and took responsibility for losing the job.

But sitting back and watching some truly good pilots, mentors, and just damn good people getting told that they weren't DL material has caused me not to even put in my app. Might seem silly to those who go or are dying to get there, but I'd rather not be a part of a culture that turns such people away.

The problem with an interview is it's so subjective, there are some people who just aren't very good at interviewing or taking that computer based testing. But you will find every airline has that problem. They try to err towards limiting outliers that get hired, which means that there are a lot more on the "not accepted side." Unfortunately, if you do not want to go to a major that hasn't turned away good people then you are going to be a regional lifer because they all have and do. There are all kinds of stories at United an American along the same lines, although American's interview process doesn't mean as much now with the flow (which also means there are very very few civilian pilots hired outside of it). That does not mean the airline has a bad "culture" as you are not so subtly implying, but it can mean a very tough interview that denies good people.


The ones who really show as people who should have gotten hired are the pilots who still work hard for the operation and the passengers and can still enjoy the job. I really hope they end up getting another shot someday and there are some I really want to get it. On the other side of the spectrum, I was in a crash pad with a guy who bragged that since he'd gotten told no he hadn't operated a single flight which arrived on time.

WhiskeyDelta
04-04-2018, 05:42 PM
But sitting back and watching some truly good pilots, mentors, and just damn good people getting told that they weren't DL material has caused me not to even put in my app. Might seem silly to those who go or are dying to get there, but I'd rather not be a part of a culture that turns such people away.


Iím kind of at a loss for words about this part. Sure, your opinion of those turned down was high and then you proceed to make a potentially career-altering decision to not apply to a particular carrier because of a one-sided conversation with the spurned party?

I respect your opinion of those turned down, however, I think youíre missing the big picture. I fully agree Delta has passed on some really great people. That said, to condemn the entire culture of Delta because a few good apples fell through the cracks (most likely due to bad interview performances on the candidate's part) borders on total ridiculousness.

HighFlight
04-04-2018, 05:53 PM
I agree that would be stupid to fall on oneís sword for that reason alone. There are other reasons, didnít really want to post them here. But that was the most disappointing part of my time here at EDV. Doesnít mean I would turn down a job at DL, I know itís a very lucrative career. But money isnít everything, which makes more sense as I have aged.

Iím kind of at a loss for words about this part. Sure, your opinion of those turned down was high and then you proceed to make a potentially career-altering decision to not apply to a particular carrier because of a one-sided conversation with the spurned party?

I respect your opinion of those turned down, however, I think youíre missing the big picture. I fully agree Delta has passed on some really great people. That said, to condemn the entire culture of Delta because a few good apples fell through the cracks (most likely due to bad interview performances on the candidate's part) borders on total ridiculousness.

Mesabah
04-04-2018, 07:30 PM
I respect your opinion of those turned down, however, I think you’re missing the big picture. I fully agree Delta has passed on some really great people. That said, to condemn the entire culture of Delta because a few good apples fell through the cracks (most likely due to bad interview performances on the candidate's part) borders on total ridiculousness.There were groups where everyone got the no on a single day. I find it hard to believe 8 great people had a bad day at the same time. That said, I have heard the process is extremely better now that AK is gone.

SurelySerious
04-24-2018, 07:26 AM
Does anyone have any more info on the DGI other than whats under Endeavor Air-DGI Program FAQ under flight ops? I believe it may be out of date as the date doesn't seem correct.

The document states anyone with seniority list with a date of hire of July 16, 2015, or later can participate... For those who were in the gap between the SSP and the DGI seem to get the short end of the stick and get no deal at all. Feel like the date got altered because of that but not sure.

FliesInSoup
04-24-2018, 08:41 AM
So here's how Delta can offer a "flow" without actually offering a flow...

Use the DGI to flow 90+% from 9E to Delta. The new hire pilot pool will see this as basically the same thing as a flow and equivalent to American's program. And Delta would have the benefit of using the DGI to weed out the few percent that they really object to for whatever reason (attendance, education, tattoos, social media review, missing teeth, bad posture, whatever...). Delta would also relieve a great deal of pressure from 9E for providing an actual flow if the majority of pilots are actually finding a home there. And Delta could offer its other DCI's something similar, or not, because nothing is in writing.

All that's required from Delta to implement this strategy is hire 90+% from the DGI pool. Nothing more is required, from Delta or 9E. This couldn't be more simple, effective, or easy to implement and administer. It's already on the books! Just follow through with 90+%!

I'm not suggesting this strategy is addressing everyone's concerns at either Delta or 9E. But this is both a very reasonable, and unusually simple solution to what has been a much debated issue.

flydiamond
04-24-2018, 09:36 AM
So here's how Delta can offer a "flow" without actually offering a flow...

Use the DGI to flow 90+% from 9E to Delta. The new hire pilot pool will see this as basically the same thing as a flow and equivalent to American's program. And Delta would have the benefit of using the DGI to weed out the few percent that they really object to for whatever reason (attendance, education, tattoos, social media review, missing teeth, bad posture, whatever...). Delta would also relieve a great deal of pressure from 9E for providing an actual flow if the majority of pilots are actually finding a home there. And Delta could offer its other DCI's something similar, or not, because nothing is in writing.

All that's required from Delta to implement this strategy is hire 90+% from the DGI pool. Nothing more is required, from Delta or 9E. This couldn't be more simple, effective, or easy to implement and administer. It's already on the books! Just follow through with 90+%!

I'm not suggesting this strategy is addressing everyone's concerns at either Delta or 9E. But this is both a very reasonable, and unusually simple solution to what has been a much debated issue.

Seems very reasonable to me. No legitimate reason someone with a good attitude who meets Deltaís basic hiring requirements (4 year degree) who has had a successful career flying Deltaís own passengers at the gold standard DCI airline should be told no. This seems to be the path that Alaska is taking with Horizon. Simplify the hiring process. Raise the number of interviews per month from 12 to something more fitting for a pilot group of 2000... maybe the greater of 12 or 1/4 the total captain group per year so that the turn time from hire to Delta is about 4-5 years.

I may be naive but I am thinking DGI results may be better than SSP results. If not, recruitment will suffer.

Green Needles
04-24-2018, 09:53 AM
Seems very reasonable to me. No legitimate reason someone with a good attitude who meets Deltaís basic hiring requirements (4 year degree) who has had a successful career flying Deltaís own passengers at the gold standard DCI airline should be told no. This seems to be the path that Alaska is taking with Horizon. Simplify the hiring process. Raise the number of interviews per month from 12 to something more fitting for a pilot group of 2000... maybe the greater of 12 or 1/4 the total captain group per year so that the turn time from hire to Delta is about 4-5 years.

I may be naive but I am thinking DGI results may be better than SSP results. If not, recruitment will suffer.

So explain to me how someone without a four year degree who is currently flying Delta passengers at the gold standard regional will be made a better pilot by paying a useless online college to get a BS in BS.

flydiamond
04-24-2018, 10:12 AM
So explain to me how someone without a four year degree who is currently flying Delta passengers at the gold standard regional will be made a better pilot by paying a useless online college to get a BS in BS.

I hear ya, I have flown with pilots from all backgrounds- BS, 2 year or just a HS diploma, and I agree, the pilot and person is not defined by whether or not they have a degree, where itís from or what their GPA was. Unfortunately, from what weíve seen Delta say, it just seems like this is a non-negotiable item for them. I have heard some people say they were told by a recruiter the DGI does not require a degree (seems like there was some misinformation about it during the initial months it was advertised), but someone coming to Endevaor today should understand that a career path to Delta from here requires a degree. It is what it is, although I hope our management or union can negotiate something better with Delta.

JetDoc
04-24-2018, 01:06 PM
So explain to me how someone without a four year degree who is currently flying Delta passengers at the gold standard regional will be made a better pilot by paying a useless online college to get a BS in BS.

Fragile egos, thats why. They are petrified that someone with an education other than a 4 year might actually be able to have stimulating, thought provoking conversation over the period of a 4 day trip. It would shatter the image of what a pilot is to them. Remember, they're delta and they think they are better than you. Irony here is that I have never had a delta pilot ask me if I had a 4 year before he/she asked for a ride in my jumpseat.

Mesabah
04-24-2018, 03:00 PM
Seems very reasonable to me. No legitimate reason someone with a good attitude who meets Delta’s basic hiring requirements (4 year degree) who has had a successful career flying Delta’s own passengers at the gold standard DCI airline should be told no. This seems to be the path that Alaska is taking with Horizon. Simplify the hiring process. Raise the number of interviews per month from 12 to something more fitting for a pilot group of 2000... maybe the greater of 12 or 1/4 the total captain group per year so that the turn time from hire to Delta is about 4-5 years.

I may be naive but I am thinking DGI results may be better than SSP results. If not, recruitment will suffer.It's Delta, they will follow the interview as described in the DGI, which is the full OTS interview.

If you want to work at Delta, and you don't have a perfectly filled out app already submitted, you are unmotivated. The more motivation you show them, and attention to detail, the easier the interview gets.

Space Ranger
04-24-2018, 03:51 PM
So explain to me how someone without a four year degree who is currently flying Delta passengers at the gold standard regional will be made a better pilot by paying a useless online college to get a BS in BS.

This argument is so old, and very weak. Having a four year degree doesnít make you a better pilot, a better person, a better anything. It shows commitment to something, itís a box to check, and it differentiates those who have from those who have not. Quit pouting about it, go online to one of the many online universities and knock out a degree in ballroom dance theory...or donít, and continue to whine about it online. American and United will take you with no degree...apply to them

TransWorld
04-24-2018, 04:56 PM
This argument is so old, and very weak. Having a four year degree doesnít make you a better pilot, a better person, a better anything. It shows commitment to something, itís a box to check, and it differentiates those who have from those who have not. Quit pouting about it, go online to one of the many online universities and knock out a degree in ballroom dance theory...or donít, and continue to whine about it online. American and United will take you with no degree...apply to them

Other than flows by WO (Envoy, PSA, and Piedmont) very few get hired at AA without a 4 year college degree. Not saying it is impossible. Just very low odds. If you want to land at one of the legacy carriers, go get your 4 year degree. You will thank me for it in the morning.

Green Needles
04-24-2018, 05:15 PM
This argument is so old, and very weak. Having a four year degree doesnít make you a better pilot, a better person, a better anything. It shows commitment to something, itís a box to check, and it differentiates those who have from those who have not. Quit pouting about it, go online to one of the many online universities and knock out a degree in ballroom dance theory...or donít, and continue to whine about it online. American and United will take you with no degree...apply to them

Already have a four year done little buddy. The "shows commitment" argument is what is really weak. All college shows is you had the money (or loans) to pay for it. There are many more things that people can do or have done in their professional life that show commitment. I'd like to submit all the people that stuck it out at the regionals during the lost decade as exhibit A for that point.

That shows far more commitment and dedication than drinking away four years of mommy and daddy's money at college.

Unfortunately, I don't write the rules, Delta does. Their actions show that our time at the "gold standard" flying Delta aircraft and passengers means little to nothing. Hopefully enough people vote with their feet and Delta gets caught behind the hiring 8-ball. I don't see that happening though.

Avroman
04-24-2018, 05:43 PM
It's Delta, they will follow the interview as described in the DGI, which is the full OTS interview.

If you want to work at Delta, and you don't have a perfectly filled out app already submitted, you are unmotivated. The more motivation you show them, and attention to detail, the easier the interview gets.

I thought I gave them a great, highly motivated, 5 star helicopter dance in the interview, I guess they were looking for powered lift :p

Green Needles
04-24-2018, 05:45 PM
I thought I gave them a great, highly motivated, 5 star helicopter dance in the interview, I guess they were looking for powered lift :p

Hahaha! You sir win the internet for tonight!

Space Ranger
04-24-2018, 05:46 PM
Already have a four year done little buddy. The "shows commitment" argument is what is really weak. All college shows is you had the money (or loans) to pay for it. There are many more things that people can do or have done in their professional life that show commitment. I'd like to submit all the people that stuck it out at the regionals during the lost decade as exhibit A for that point.

That shows far more commitment and dedication than drinking away four years of mommy and daddy's money at college.

Unfortunately, I don't write the rules, Delta does. Their actions show that our time at the "gold standard" flying Delta aircraft and passengers means little to nothing. Hopefully enough people vote with their feet and Delta gets caught behind the hiring 8-ball. I don't see that happening though.

Congrats to you for “spending mommy and daddy’s” money, you’re a dumbass. Some people, unlike you, are motivated to better themselves and learn a thing or two while at college. So again, I commend you for wasting four years of your life, or however many it took you, but don’t overgeneralize and totally discredit having a degree. Besides, you have one, so quit being a snowflake. If you want to work at DAL, get a degree. Argue semantics all you want, it’s a requirement.

1337pilot
04-24-2018, 06:38 PM
Ok guys 4/20 was two days ago. Hope those of you who somehow started beliving DL is going to do something reasonable with interviewing/hiring don't get a drug test anytime soon. lol. Even the hat wearing, gate and standing in the cabin announcement making DL fanboys will privatly admit to you that they're not really holding their breath for DGI to happen as advertised or at all.

Green Needles
04-24-2018, 07:20 PM
Congrats to you for ďspending mommy and daddyísĒ money, youíre a dumbass. Some people, unlike you, are motivated to better themselves and learn a thing or two while at college. So again, I commend you for wasting four years of your life, or however many it took you, but donít overgeneralize and totally discredit having a degree. Besides, you have one, so quit being a snowflake. If you want to work at DAL, get a degree. Argue semantics all you want, itís a requirement.

It's so easy to get you a riled up. Make sure you don't get on here before your next medical, your blood pressure may be too high, lol.

HighFlight
04-24-2018, 07:39 PM
And on the other end of the spectrum, I present Space Ranger. Showing the world, once again, that passing People Skills 101 is not required for having a degree.

Many people have degrees that have little to no application to piloting an aircraft. As has been pointed out, itís simply a discriminator on a box on an application, nothing more.

Congrats to you for ďspending mommy and daddyísĒ money, youíre a dumbass. Some people, unlike you, are motivated to better themselves and learn a thing or two while at college. So again, I commend you for wasting four years of your life, or however many it took you, but donít overgeneralize and totally discredit having a degree. Besides, you have one, so quit being a snowflake. If you want to work at DAL, get a degree. Argue semantics all you want, itís a requirement.

HarlsBarkley
04-25-2018, 05:14 AM
Already have a four year done little buddy. The "shows commitment" argument is what is really weak. All college shows is you had the money (or loans) to pay for it. There are many more things that people can do or have done in their professional life that show commitment. I'd like to submit all the people that stuck it out at the regionals during the lost decade as exhibit A for that point.

That shows far more commitment and dedication than drinking away four years of mommy and daddy's money at college.

Unfortunately, I don't write the rules, Delta does. Their actions show that our time at the "gold standard" flying Delta aircraft and passengers means little to nothing. Hopefully enough people vote with their feet and Delta gets caught behind the hiring 8-ball. I don't see that happening though.

I canít remember much of anything academic I learned in college, but most people at college are not drinking away four years or wasting mom and dadís money. From Deltaís (or any other emoloyerís) prospective, whether or not a job applicant has a college degree is too easy of a legal discriminator to ignore.

Most of the folks I have flown with who donít have a four year degree immediately give reasons for not having one. I get it, some have kids, commitments, etc., but there is always some reason for not having one, and everyone thinks theyíll be in the 0.5% of pilots hired at the majors without one, which is just delusional.

Space Ranger
04-25-2018, 04:29 PM
And on the other end of the spectrum, I present Space Ranger. Showing the world, once again, that passing People Skills 101 is not required for having a degree.

Many people have degrees that have little to no application to piloting an aircraft. As has been pointed out, itís simply a discriminator on a box on an application, nothing more.

Couldnít agree more.

FODhopper
04-25-2018, 09:56 PM
Itís unfortunate that as least a few of you are looking at a college degree through the prisim of a requirement by one or more employers in the USA.

College is there to expand oneís mind and discover the world beyond their formative years. If one thinks that they would be better served just marching along in this industry with one skill in life then there are gonna be some tough years when the industry takes a turn again...and it will.

Not everyone got to go right out of HS, I get that. But itís still a worthwhile pursuit. Get a degree in something unrelated that you are interested in. It also doesnít have to be at a traditional brick and mortar location.

I have an aviation degree, but through pursuit of other academic interests in college I gained employable skills that sustained me through several periods of my career when the flying jobs were just not there.

Stop looking at college as this onerous requirement and see it for why it exists; to enhance you as a citizen of this find country.

Vegemite00
04-26-2018, 08:03 AM
This has gone into the college degree vs no college degree debate, which the merits of one wonít really be solved, but if airlines say they need it (for whatever reason) they need it.

So, has the last SSP pilot gone to Delta? Next up are the few EtD guys, then the DGI start interviewing?

Casualinterest
04-26-2018, 12:46 PM
Does anyone have any more info on the DGI other than whats under Endeavor Air-DGI Program FAQ under flight ops? I believe it may be out of date as the date doesn't seem correct.

The document states anyone with seniority list with a date of hire of July 16, 2015, or later can participate... For those who were in the gap between the SSP and the DGI seem to get the short end of the stick and get no deal at all. Feel like the date got altered because of that but not sure.Since no one answered your question....

No, there's no more detail. If we haven't heard anything more by end of summer I would start getting very concerned.

Once the last SSP goes there will be eligible dgi pilots. So this needs to get hammered out soon.

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SurelySerious
04-26-2018, 01:54 PM
Since no one answered your question....

No, there's no more detail. If we haven't heard anything more by end of summer I would start getting very concerned.

Once the last SSP goes there will be eligible dgi pilots. So this needs to get hammered out soon.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

not even the date being changed? someone in here mentioned the gap between the ssp ending and whats on the FAQ being closed

Mesabah
04-26-2018, 02:19 PM
Itís unfortunate that as least a few of you are looking at a college degree through the prisim of a requirement by one or more employers in the USA.

College is there to expand oneís mind and discover the world beyond their formative years. If one thinks that they would be better served just marching along in this industry with one skill in life then there are gonna be some tough years when the industry takes a turn again...and it will.

Not everyone got to go right out of HS, I get that. But itís still a worthwhile pursuit. Get a degree in something unrelated that you are interested in. It also doesnít have to be at a traditional brick and mortar location.

I have an aviation degree, but through pursuit of other academic interests in college I gained employable skills that sustained me through several periods of my career when the flying jobs were just not there.

Stop looking at college as this onerous requirement and see it for why it exists; to enhance you as a citizen of this find country.The problem with college is the ROI. The cost of college simply isn't worth it, and these days, data suggests, earning potential is no longer higher. However, If you want to be an airline pilot, it is necessary. Furthermore, these days I highly recommend an aviation degree, since the majors are now going to hire directly from these programs. Backup degrees don't work in this environment, you won't have the necessary experience to land a job outside of aviation in this market.

TransWorld
04-26-2018, 03:34 PM
The problem with college is the ROI. The cost of college simply isn't worth it, and these days, data suggests, earning potential is no longer higher. However, If you want to be an airline pilot, it is necessary. Furthermore, these days I highly recommend an aviation degree, since the majors are now going to hire directly from these programs. Backup degrees don't work in this environment, you won't have the necessary experience to land a job outside of aviation in this market.

Letís see. With all the other tickets punched and a 4 year college degree, you can get hired by a legacy. Without it, you have a very slim chance. The difference is worth millions over a lifetime. Sounds like an outstanding ROI to me.

May not like it, may wish it was not so, may even think you learn nothing useful in college; but unless things change, this is the lay of the land.

Mesabah
04-26-2018, 04:11 PM
Let’s see. With all the other tickets punched and a 4 year college degree, you can get hired by a legacy. Without it, you have a very slim chance. The difference is worth millions over a lifetime. Sounds like an outstanding ROI to me.

May not like it, may wish it was not so, may even think you learn nothing useful in college; but unless things change, this is the lay of the land.The problem is, the vast majority of pilots don't make it to the legacies. Of the 8 other flight instructors I worked with at a flight school, three made it to the legacies, 2 to Delta via the SSP(may not have got hired without it), and 1 to AA. All of us had college degrees, that's 3 out of 9.

TransWorld
04-26-2018, 04:14 PM
The problem is, the vast majority of pilots don't make it to the legacies. Of the 8 flight instructors I worked with at a flight school, three made it to the legacies, 2 to Delta via the SSP(may not have got hired without it), and 1 to AA. All of us had college degrees.

As retirements double at the majors in the next 5 years, do you see more of the qualified regional pilots being vacuumed up by the majors?

Mesabah
04-26-2018, 04:36 PM
As retirements double at the majors in the next 5 years, do you see more of the qualified regional pilots being vacuumed up by the majors?
That's the real question isn't it. The so called "undesirables" rejected by the SSP, almost all of them have college degrees. If you're going to require a degree, you're going to have to eventually step into that pool. That's why I say you need to get an aviation degree, these college flight schools are going to allow you to secure a legacy seat right away, the degree is really irrelevant, because the airlines would rather do that, than take the regional no-hires who have degrees.

HighFlight
04-26-2018, 06:22 PM
Ummm, come again? Shirley you realize that the vast majority of pilots are AT the legacies, right? There are more pilots at any two or three legacies than at all the regionals combined.


The problem is, the vast majority of pilots don't make it to the legacies. Of the 8 other flight instructors I worked with at a flight school, three made it to the legacies, 2 to Delta via the SSP(may not have got hired without it), and 1 to AA. All of us had college degrees, that's 3 out of 9.

Shadre Reevis
04-26-2018, 06:28 PM
Ummm, come again? Shirley you realize that the vast majority of pilots are AT the legacies, right? There are more pilots at any two or three legacies than at all the regionals combined.Not all of them come from the same background. Military etc.

Mesabah
04-26-2018, 08:52 PM
Ummm, come again? Shirley you realize that the vast majority of pilots are AT the legacies, right? There are more pilots at any two or three legacies than at all the regionals combined.
No they are not, there are 153,000 ATP holders with a current medical in the US. There are several hundred thousand more that have a commercial license, or are inactive ATP/former military, etc. It's probably a single digit percentage of total pilots that make it to a legacy.

jules11
04-27-2018, 05:18 AM
No they are not, there are 153,000 ATP holders with a current medical in the US. There are several hundred thousand more that have a commercial license, or are inactive ATP/former military, etc. It's probably a single digit percentage of total pilots that make it to a legacy.

MATH


Number of pilots at DL, AA, UA: 48,917 (Source: APC)

Number of regional pilots (represented by ALPA minus FedEx, plus Gojet & Skywest): 60,620 (Source: Wikipedia)

Simple math shows that about 45% of all, if not most, 121 pilots are at a major.
The smallest single digit percentage (9%) of current regional pilots would be 5,455.
Surely more than 5,455, "a single digit percentage," regional pilots will make it to a major...

TransWorld
04-27-2018, 05:25 AM
If you add up AA, DL, UN, SW, FedEx, and UPS they are about 60,000.

If you add up all the regionals they are about 20,000.

There are others: the LCC, small freight dogs, charters, etc.

The largest group of pilots fly a 172 on the weekends and never realistically thought of a career as a pilot. Some have military flying experience, many are strictly civilians.

(You are welcome to add up the numbers listed here on APC when you are bored and have nothing to do.)

Baradium
04-28-2018, 11:19 AM
The problem is, the vast majority of pilots don't make it to the legacies. Of the 8 other flight instructors I worked with at a flight school, three made it to the legacies, 2 to Delta via the SSP(may not have got hired without it), and 1 to AA. All of us had college degrees, that's 3 out of 9.

How many of those 9 are flying commercially with desire to go to a regional? Ones who bailed out of the industry or are doing non airline flying aren't relevant to this conversation.

No they are not, there are 153,000 ATP holders with a current medical in the US. There are several hundred thousand more that have a commercial license, or are inactive ATP/former military, etc. It's probably a single digit percentage of total pilots that make it to a legacy.

Those numbers don't mean anything relevant to the conversation.

I know many people who never wanted to go to a legacy yet have an ATP due to the type of flying they do. You are also presuming that all corporate or commercially licensed pilots only ever wanted to fly for a legacy.

TransWorld
04-28-2018, 11:58 AM
No they are not, there are 153,000 ATP holders with a current medical in the US. There are several hundred thousand more that have a commercial license, or are inactive ATP/former military, etc. It's probably a single digit percentage of total pilots that make it to a legacy.

About 60,000 with the majors (big 6). 20,000 with the regionals. Roughly 15,000 more flying others (see above). So, about 95,000 total. That is almost 2/3 with the majors.

There are 153,000 current ATP with current medical. Since the regionals have been having difficulties finding qualified pilots to hire, it validates most of the rest (153,000 - 95,000 = 58,000) have low interest in flying commercial passengers or freight at the regionals or majors. That does not even count all the others that fly 172s on the weekends. Most do that for fun or personal needs. Go to a GA airport on the weekend and ask the pilots if they want to fly commercially. You will get a lot of thanks but no thanks.

They kept it for other reasons. I think we all know people that are in that category. Can some become interested into flying commercial passengers/freight? Sure. We hear every month of pilots 50+ years old hiring on with the regionals. But there is no line out the door and down the street waiting for a regional interview. So not that many.

In the coming years, starting FO regional pay may increase from $40,000 (with sign on bonus $60,000) to $90,000 a year. That will attract more, as well as a lot right out of college. Money talks. But I still see a shortage in the US and even more worldwide.

havick206
04-28-2018, 12:21 PM
Money talks. But I still see a shortage in the US and even more worldwide.

Yep, in 2-5 years the market will be more dire once you factor in carriers around the world trying to attract pilots to staff their jets. The US legacy retirements are but only one factor in the eventual shortage. Especially once decent long term touring or US based contracts inevitably are offered.

Mesabah
04-28-2018, 02:44 PM
Among my new hire class of 32 at Mesaba years ago, 1 has made it to a legacy thus far. Most of them left aviation during the bad years.

Green Needles
04-28-2018, 05:38 PM
Among my new hire class of 32 at Mesaba years ago, 1 has made it to a legacy thus far. Most of them left aviation during the bad years.

And all that time and dedication to the airline counts for nothing. We need a college degree to check a box to show we can dedicate ourselves to a long term goal. :rolleyes: Something needs to change to give more weight to industry experience over college.

Either way, there are many unknowns with the DGI. If the past (SSP) is any indication of the future, I don't hold much hope.

HighFlight
04-29-2018, 07:09 AM
Among my new hire class of 14 two years ago, three or four have moved on to legacy airlines, and one to a major. (Everyone has a degree, but not all have the requisite hours, but itís only a matter of time for them.)

Among my new hire class of 32 at Mesaba years ago, 1 has made it to a legacy thus far. Most of them left aviation during the bad years.

jules11
04-29-2018, 08:32 AM
Among my new hire class of 14 two years ago, three or four have moved on to legacy airlines, and one to a major. (Everyone has a degree, but not all have the requisite hours, but itís only a matter of time for them.)

Whatís the difference between a legacy and a major?

N1234
04-29-2018, 10:23 AM
Whatís the difference between a legacy and a major?

Major = more than 1B in revenue per DOT.

Legacy = AA, DL, UA, AS, HA - this really just a subset of the above

Think of it as old money vs new money.

KSCessnaDriver
04-29-2018, 01:07 PM
Whatís the difference between a legacy and a major?

As the Mormon's will tell you, they're a "major"

Baradium
04-29-2018, 01:57 PM
And all that time and dedication to the airline counts for nothing. We need a college degree to check a box to show we can dedicate ourselves to a long term goal. :rolleyes: Something needs to change to give more weight to industry experience over college.

Either way, there are many unknowns with the DGI. If the past (SSP) is any indication of the future, I don't hold much hope.

A college degree has been a requirement for decades. While I can sympathize with those who chose to start flying sooner rather than detour to get a degree, it was a conscious choice to do so. Just as it was to not get one at a later time. While pilots have been successful (including in the SSP) at getting to a major airline with no degree, I imagine it does make it difficult to explain how badly you want to work for someone if you never tried to meet their posted hiring standards.

Experience counts, but there are also plenty who have that as well as a degree. A big part of a degree is the area outside of your focus, because you are not only learning new things, but also having to study in areas you might not care as much about in order to succeed at your long term goals.

Some day the requirement might change, but it won't be because a degree is no longer considered. If you have no desire to get to a degree to be competitive for a major, AA has a pathway now.

This response isn't because you want a degree to not be required, but because you are implying it does not have meaning.

Avroman
04-29-2018, 07:14 PM
My class has 3 of 12 at Legacy airlines, and 3 at regionals (one still has never been a captain now on his 3rd regional thanks to a furlough and a full shutdown... and his current choice isn't looking peachy ), 1 at a supplemental freight, 1 corporate, 1 UAV civilian government contractor, and 3 left the industry.

Mesabah
04-30-2018, 10:42 AM
A college degree has been a requirement for decades. While I can sympathize with those who chose to start flying sooner rather than detour to get a degree, it was a conscious choice to do so. Just as it was to not get one at a later time. While pilots have been successful (including in the SSP) at getting to a major airline with no degree, I imagine it does make it difficult to explain how badly you want to work for someone if you never tried to meet their posted hiring standards.

Experience counts, but there are also plenty who have that as well as a degree. A big part of a degree is the area outside of your focus, because you are not only learning new things, but also having to study in areas you might not care as much about in order to succeed at your long term goals.

Some day the requirement might change, but it won't be because a degree is no longer considered. If you have no desire to get to a degree to be competitive for a major, AA has a pathway now.

This response isn't because you want a degree to not be required, but because you are implying it does not have meaning.
It's fine to prefer a degree as a competitive requirement, but requiring one as a hard line, in my opinion is unethical. The reason for that opinion is the required amount of debt a pilot has to take on to get into this profession, is astronomical. I regularly fly with guys who have over $250K in outstanding debt, sometimes at double digit interest rates. That amount would be okay, if you were guaranteed a shot at the legacies. Though, I don't think the majority of pilots that start flight training with the goal of a legacy carrier, actually make it there.

N1234
04-30-2018, 11:40 AM
As the Mormon's will tell you, they're a "major"

Technically they are - more than 1 B in revenue (DOT definition).

Of course that is not what people mean when talking about a major.

Baradium
04-30-2018, 04:49 PM
It's fine to prefer a degree as a competitive requirement, but requiring one as a hard line, in my opinion is unethical. The reason for that opinion is the required amount of debt a pilot has to take on to get into this profession, is astronomical. I regularly fly with guys who have over $250K in outstanding debt, sometimes at double digit interest rates. That amount would be okay, if you were guaranteed a shot at the legacies. Though, I don't think the majority of pilots that start flight training with the goal of a legacy carrier, actually make it there.

I won't argue against the idea of it not being a hard line, and I think that it very well may eventually go that way. My whole point was about the idea that it doesn't really mean anything to have a degree which was espoused.

I don't know if I would go as far as saying it's unethical to require one, since companies have the right to require what they want to, but do agree that it does make things more difficult for those who started flying before a degree. On the other hand, I flew with a large number of pilots who got a degree while flying too, and I think it does really mean something when they've gone through all that to get it.

Right now I believe United still requires a degree, as well as Delta (although they did make an exception for the SSP). American doesn't require a degree, but you have to go through the flow program to get there as almost all of their hiring slots go to flows and military anyway.

Baradium
04-30-2018, 04:55 PM
Technically they are - more than 1 B in revenue (DOT definition).

Of course that is not what people mean when talking about a major.

When I left my first flying job and got on with what was then Pinnacle, one of the other guys who was in my new hire class at the first outfit derided me for going to a regional and supporting the regional model instead of going to a mainline carrier like he did. He couldn't understand why I would subject myself to the humiliation of being at a lowly regional. 10 years later and he is still at SkyWest from what I understand.

Mesabah
04-30-2018, 07:35 PM
I won't argue against the idea of it not being a hard line, and I think that it very well may eventually go that way. My whole point was about the idea that it doesn't really mean anything to have a degree which was espoused.

I don't know if I would go as far as saying it's unethical to require one, since companies have the right to require what they want to, but do agree that it does make things more difficult for those who started flying before a degree. On the other hand, I flew with a large number of pilots who got a degree while flying too, and I think it does really mean something when they've gone through all that to get it.

Right now I believe United still requires a degree, as well as Delta (although they did make an exception for the SSP). American doesn't require a degree, but you have to go through the flow program to get there as almost all of their hiring slots go to flows and military anyway.Do you think it is a good idea to hire someone who has $250K+ in debt? Would you date someone who had that much debt?

FODhopper
04-30-2018, 09:00 PM
How many people date/marry doctors or lawyers...they have epic debt.

Mesabah
04-30-2018, 10:39 PM
How many people date/marry doctors or lawyers...they have epic debt.
They can go the public service route, and get loan forgiveness. A regional pilot who doesn't make the majors may never get out of debt.

HighFlight
05-01-2018, 03:15 AM
$797 mil in 2017. $758 mil in 2016. Not quite there yet.

Fun fact - name a major airline that has never merged nor furloughed a pilot.

Technically they are - more than 1 B in revenue (DOT definition).

Of course that is not what people mean when talking about a major.

Mesabah
05-01-2018, 05:11 AM
$797 mil in 2017. $758 mil in 2016. Not quite there yet.

Fun fact - name a major airline that has never merged nor furloughed a pilot.
Has Jetblue ever furloughed, I can't recall if they have?

Fourpaw
05-01-2018, 12:59 PM
$797 mil in 2017. $758 mil in 2016. Not quite there yet.

Fun fact - name a major airline that has never merged nor furloughed a pilot.

Southwest Airlines

Crap just realized merged.

TalkTurkey
05-01-2018, 01:50 PM
EDV3413, DAL0212, N606LR, ship number 5173 on May 1 traded paint. That is all.

TalkTurkey
05-01-2018, 01:53 PM
How many people date/marry doctors or lawyers...they have epic debt.

I just bang them. I never marry. that would be stupid and counter productive to 21st century living. Just google Tom Leykis and listen.

Baradium
05-01-2018, 02:07 PM
Do you think it is a good idea to hire someone who has $250K+ in debt? Would you date someone who had that much debt?

Did you just justify not getting a degree because you are worried mainline would not hire someone with college debt... when you are almost guaranteed they wouldn't hire someone without the degree?

I'll also say, there is a lot more to it when you rack up that much debt. You can get a degree for less than 10% of that. Someone going to a big name expensive school doesn't all degree costs make.

Mesabah
05-01-2018, 02:50 PM
Did you just justify not getting a degree because you are worried mainline would not hire someone with college debt... when you are almost guaranteed they wouldn't hire someone without the degree? No

I'll also say, there is a lot more to it when you rack up that much debt. You can get a degree for less than 10% of that. Someone going to a big name expensive school doesn't all degree costs make.Where can you get a worthwhile degree for less than $25K? My degree was about $35K, but today, that same college, same major is $125K.
This absolute parabolic rise in tuition is caused by degree inflation, and it will eventually drive the economy into the dirt, and the airlines into another lost decade.
I'm singling out the airlines here because it is an airline forum, but this applies to all jobs where a degree in "anything", is being required.

I flew with a guy whom had $275K in Riddle debt, and the default rate of 14% interest, he can't discharge that debt in bankruptcy. At his current payment plan, that's $1.2 million in total debt over his career.

Baradium
05-01-2018, 03:43 PM
Where can you get a worthwhile degree for less than $25K? My degree was about $35K, but today, that same college, same major is $125K.
This absolute parabolic rise in tuition is caused by degree inflation, and it will eventually drive the economy into the dirt, and the airlines into another lost decade.
I'm singling out the airlines here because it is an airline forum, but this applies to all jobs where a degree in "anything", is being required.

I flew with a guy whom had $275K in Riddle debt, and the default rate of 14% interest, he can't discharge that debt in bankruptcy. At his current payment plan, that's $1.2 million in total debt over his career.

Smaller not as famous schools tend to cost less. My base tuition was $1200 a semester where I went, starting in 2001. That puts it at under $10,000 in tuition for 4 years, even doubling that to account for books etc and you're under $20,000. And this was a large 4 year institution that just didn't have a big name football team or only specialize in aviation.

I do see now they have a per hour scale, with 15 hours costing around $4500, which does increase those costs significantly. But it still means a 4 year degree for well under 6 figures is possible, even accounting for additional expenses. (I come up with $36,000 in tuition at that rate)

When you start adding in aviation programs, flight time costs increase the money spent by a large amount but you'd be spending flight training money regardless, so it's more a matter of whether they are charging more than market for aircraft and instructors (mine was less than the FBO).

When you start looking at smaller community colleges that have 4 year degree programs you can still get a degree for a reasonable amount IMO. Many schools also now have correspondence courses which someone can use while they have a career to get a degree while they're working.

I do not think Riddle costs are appropriate for an overall degree discussion as they are known for being a very expensive school. Might as well use base tuition costs for an ivy league school and imply it covers everywhere else as well. When I went to school a riddle education was more per semester than my entire education for their fees. Currently ERAU in Daytona charges $17,196 for 12-16 credit hours. $16,332 if you graduated high school in Florida. On top of that, they have higher housing costs associated with their location. I didn't sample every state, but it seems that $5000 a semester is a reasonable tuition that you can achieve with a 15 hour course load. That would be $40,000 for 4 year program tuition cost, doubling that to take care of potential expenses does put you up to $80,000, but that would be $45,000 below your number and many times lower than a riddle one.

In transparency I'm trying to account for living expenses, books etc and be generous with the numbers. Are you including those numbers in your school's fees?

web500sjc
05-01-2018, 03:46 PM
Where can you get a worthwhile degree for less than $25K? My degree was about $35K, but today, that same college, same major is $125K.
This absolute parabolic rise in tuition is caused by degree inflation, and it will eventually drive the economy into the dirt, and the airlines into another lost decade.
I'm singling out the airlines here because it is an airline forum, but this applies to all jobs where a degree in "anything", is being required.

I flew with a guy whom had $275K in Riddle debt, and the default rate of 14% interest, he can't discharge that debt in bankruptcy. At his current payment plan, that's $1.2 million in total debt over his career.

No one said DL requires a 35k degree or better (or a degree from a good school) they just require a degree that say ďBachlorĒ on it. Get one from Trump University, Detroit Comunity college, or Fedex University... DL doesnít care as long as you check the box.

Mesabah
05-01-2018, 04:01 PM
No one said DL requires a 35k degree or better (or a degree from a good school) they just require a degree that say “Bachlor” on it. Get one from Trump University, Detroit Comunity college, or Fedex University... DL doesn’t care as long as you check the box.
That's for the DGI, Delta absolutely considers quality of education in your app score, to get the call for an OTS interview.



Smaller not as famous schools tend to cost less. My base tuition was $1200 a semester where I went, starting in 2001. That puts it at under $10,000 in tuition for 4 years, even doubling that to account for books etc and you're under $20,000. And this was a large 4 year institution that just didn't have a big name football team or only specialize in aviation.

I do see now they have a per hour scale, with 15 hours costing around $4500, which does increase those costs significantly. But it still means a 4 year degree for well under 6 figures is possible, even accounting for additional expenses. (I come up with $36,000 in tuition at that rate)

When you start adding in aviation programs, flight time costs increase the money spent by a large amount but you'd be spending flight training money regardless, so it's more a matter of whether they are charging more than market for aircraft and instructors (mine was less than the FBO).

When you start looking at smaller community colleges that have 4 year degree programs you can still get a degree for a reasonable amount IMO. Many schools also now have correspondence courses which someone can use while they have a career to get a degree while they're working.

I do not think Riddle costs are appropriate for an overall degree discussion as they are known for being a very expensive school. Might as well use base tuition costs for an ivy league school and imply it covers everywhere else as well. When I went to school a riddle education was more per semester than my entire education for their fees. Currently ERAU in Daytona charges $17,196 for 12-16 credit hours. $16,332 if you graduated high school in Florida. On top of that, they have higher housing costs associated with their location. I didn't sample every state, but it seems that $5000 a semester is a reasonable tuition that you can achieve with a 15 hour course load. That would be $40,000 for 4 year program tuition cost, doubling that to take care of potential expenses does put you up to $80,000, but that would be $45,000 below your number and many times lower than a riddle one.

In transparency I'm trying to account for living expenses, books etc and be generous with the numbers. Are you including those numbers in your school's fees?You likely won't be getting the call for Delta if you don't have a quality education, finished in a timely manner.

Moreover, Delta plans to go directly to the Universities to hire its pilots, it's the only way they can keep this scam going. The other airlines usually follow Delta, so if you're not willing to take on the debt, you're likely not going to be working for a legacy. The debt is no big deal if you get the slot, but if not, yikes. It's totally crazy.

Bahamasflyer
05-01-2018, 04:23 PM
That's for the DGI, Delta absolutely considers quality of education in your app score, to get the call for an OTS interview.



You likely won't be getting the call for Delta if you don't have a quality education, finished in a timely manner.

Moreover, Delta plans to go directly to the Universities to hire its pilots, it's the only way they can keep this scam going. The other airlines usually follow Delta, so if you're not willing to take on the debt, you're likely not going to be working for a legacy. The debt is no big deal if you get the slot, but if not, yikes. It's totally crazy.

A bit of hyperbole there man, don't you think?

Mesabah
05-01-2018, 04:30 PM
A bit of hyperbole there man, don't you think?
No, the airlines have to staff their regionals, and have a future pipeline to cover retirements. Eventually, as more students get selected, the military, and those students will take up most, if not all the new hire slots. This is the situation at AA with the flow. The best way to staff your regionals, is to go right to the source, and strap the golden handcuffs on.

Baradium
05-01-2018, 04:39 PM
That's for the DGI, Delta absolutely considers quality of education in your app score, to get the call for an OTS interview.



You likely won't be getting the call for Delta if you don't have a quality education, finished in a timely manner.

Moreover, Delta plans to go directly to the Universities to hire its pilots, it's the only way they can keep this scam going. The other airlines usually follow Delta, so if you're not willing to take on the debt, you're likely not going to be working for a legacy. The debt is no big deal if you get the slot, but if not, yikes. It's totally crazy.

MTSU, which is a large institution with a respected aviation program is under $5000 a semester as well. I consider them to represent a quality institution, and a more rounded education at that.


AA has their flow, but I'm not sure DAL and UAL are ready to go to that extent at this time. I honestly think this is the time to be trying to get regional flying back in house at the majors. If they're going to be increasing pay to near major parity anyway and possibly looking at flows... might as well shoot for one seniority list all the way through.

Mesabah
05-01-2018, 04:52 PM
MTSU, which is a large institution with a respected aviation program is under $5000 a semester as well. I consider them to represent a quality institution, and a more rounded education at that.


AA has their flow, but I'm not sure DAL and UAL are ready to go to that extent at this time. I honestly think this is the time to be trying to get regional flying back in house at the majors. If they're going to be increasing pay to near major parity anyway and possibly looking at flows... might as well shoot for one seniority list all the way through.
Yeah, but MTSU is $14K semester out of state. I know what you are getting at, but keep in mind I do hiring for my own business, and I'm disgusted by what I see colleges putting these kids through.

Baradium
05-01-2018, 05:45 PM
Yeah, but MTSU is $14K semester out of state. I know what you are getting at, but keep in mind I do hiring for my own business, and I'm disgusted by what I see colleges putting these kids through.

ERAU is one of the worst I think. I feel like they really siphon students dry. MTSU does have a program they lets you obtain in state tuition even if you start out of state. Looks like it involves taking a year or two part time while working a regular job in the state. They are also part of the academic common market.


I propose that the problem isn't the idea of a degree as that there are so many schools marketing themselves to students who desire the degree which take full advantage of them financially. I still believe there are respected schools which you can obtain a degree from without a six figure debt. But many cases these are not going to be the ones running fancy advertisements or specializing only in a single field.

N1234
05-01-2018, 05:56 PM
$797 mil in 2017. $758 mil in 2016. Not quite there yet.

Fun fact - name a major airline that has never merged nor furloughed a pilot.

Those are quarterly figures. Annual revenue is over 3B

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SKYW/financials?p=SKYW

HighFlight
05-01-2018, 07:02 PM
Iím pretty sure that is NOT the degree they are looking for, and if you spelled it that way on your resume, you can most likely forget about ever getting the call.

No one said DL requires a 35k degree or better (or a degree from a good school) they just require a degree that say ďBachlorĒ on it. Get one from Trump University, Detroit Comunity college, or Fedex University... DL doesnít care as long as you check the box.

HighFlight
05-01-2018, 07:07 PM
https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/skywest-inc-announces-fourth-quarter-2017-profit-300592311.html

Yeah, I missed the Q4 part, sorry for the Freud thingy.

Here’s the US majors: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_airlines_of_the_United_States

Those are quarterly figures. Annual revenue is over 3B

https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SKYW/financials?p=SKYW

JetDoc
05-02-2018, 07:11 AM
No one said DL requires a 35k degree or better (or a degree from a good school) they just require a degree that say “Bachlor” on it. Get one from Trump University, Detroit Comunity college, or Fedex University... DL doesn’t care as long as you check the box.

Actually delta weighs very heavily where you went, how long it took you and your GPA. In addition, using delta's logic, no one should be allowed to pilot a 121 airliner without a degree, especially one that is carrying delta passengers. The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy quite honestly.

Flogger
05-02-2018, 12:38 PM
Actually delta weighs very heavily where you went, how long it took you and your GPA. In addition, using delta's logic, no one should be allowed to pilot a 121 airliner without a degree, especially one that is carrying delta passengers. The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy quite honestly.

9E pilots went to Delta without a degree via SSP.

Bahamasflyer
05-02-2018, 02:14 PM
Actually delta weighs very heavily where you went, how long it took you and your GPA. In addition, using delta's logic, no one should be allowed to pilot a 121 airliner without a degree, especially one that is carrying delta passengers. The whole thing reeks of hypocrisy quite honestly.

Seriously, these first two??

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

So DAL is more likely to call me if I were to be IRRESPONSIBLE and put myself deep into debt, drop everything I have, and get a degree somewhere that I could not afford.........vs. if I methodically work towards my degree while juggling flying 121 full-time, at an accredited school that allows me to take classes while I'm on a 4 day trip at a regional, while paying 1/3rd as much and staying out of debt, and while maintaining a good GPA?

YGBSM

That's every bit as absurd as a major caring about where you obtained your PPL. Sheesh!

Milksheikh
05-02-2018, 02:32 PM
Seriously, these first two??

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

So DAL is more likely to call me if I were to be IRRESPONSIBLE and put myself deep into debt, drop everything I have, and get a degree somewhere that I could not afford.........vs. if I methodically work towards my degree while juggling flying 121 full-time, at an accredited school that allows me to take classes while I'm on a 4 day trip at a regional, while paying 1/3rd as much and staying out of debt, and while maintaining a good GPA?

YGBSM

That's every bit as absurd as a major caring about where you obtained your PPL. Sheesh!

Regarding how long it took to finish the degree, I've heard it doesn't matter quite as much as some may think. It's all different based on peoples situations. If you were doing the things you were saying while working at a regional and had other things going on taking classes part time, I have to believe it wouldn't hurt that it took 5-6 years as opposed to 4.

prex8390
05-02-2018, 02:42 PM
Seriously, these first two??

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

So DAL is more likely to call me if I were to be IRRESPONSIBLE and put myself deep into debt, drop everything I have, and get a degree somewhere that I could not afford.........vs. if I methodically work towards my degree while juggling flying 121 full-time, at an accredited school that allows me to take classes while I'm on a 4 day trip at a regional, while paying 1/3rd as much and staying out of debt, and while maintaining a good GPA?

YGBSM

That's every bit as absurd as a major caring about where you obtained your PPL. Sheesh!

Yeah theyve stated publically they prefer candidates from UND, Riddle etc, they prefer aviation degrees. They told people that at their hiring expo last year. So just getting that basket weaving degree just to click boxes isnít always the best choice.

WhiskeyDelta
05-02-2018, 04:48 PM
Regarding how long it took to finish the degree, I've heard it doesn't matter quite as much as some may think. It's all different based on peoples situations. If you were doing the things you were saying while working at a regional and had other things going on taking classes part time, I have to believe it wouldn't hurt that it took 5-6 years as opposed to 4.


Delta certainly looks at the quality of the school, how tough the degree is and how long it took to achieve the degree. If you took more than 4 years to get it, be ready to explain why. Internship? Working through college? Or just messing off and sub-par grades? Also, a lower GPA can somewhat be justified as long as it is in a tough degree program. 3.0 is what Iíve heard is the unofficial minimum collegiate GPA.

I crammed 4 years into 6 for my degree. 1 full year was a FDX internship and another was due to my transferring into one of the bigger known 141 universities. At no point during my interview was I questioned as to why it took me 6 years. It was obvious based on my application.

If some was able to crack the code, it would be all over the internet but then Delta would just change up their formula. I get that itís infuriating for some. Good luck to everyone that wants Delta.

Mesabah
05-02-2018, 05:38 PM
Seriously, these first two??

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

So DAL is more likely to call me if I were to be IRRESPONSIBLE and put myself deep into debt, drop everything I have, and get a degree somewhere that I could not afford.........vs. if I methodically work towards my degree while juggling flying 121 full-time, at an accredited school that allows me to take classes while I'm on a 4 day trip at a regional, while paying 1/3rd as much and staying out of debt, and while maintaining a good GPA?

YGBSM

That's every bit as absurd as a major caring about where you obtained your PPL. Sheesh!
Yep, in 5 years, the majority of new hires will be civilian direct college hires from aviation programs, where everyone has $300K debt. Good times!

Baradium
05-02-2018, 08:46 PM
Seriously, these first two??

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

So DAL is more likely to call me if I were to be IRRESPONSIBLE and put myself deep into debt, drop everything I have, and get a degree somewhere that I could not afford.........vs. if I methodically work towards my degree while juggling flying 121 full-time, at an accredited school that allows me to take classes while I'm on a 4 day trip at a regional, while paying 1/3rd as much and staying out of debt, and while maintaining a good GPA?

YGBSM

That's every bit as absurd as a major caring about where you obtained your PPL. Sheesh!

As others have said, this is not what it meant. Don't get worked up easily.

It's situation based. A full time student doing a 4 year degree in 8 is different than a working student holding a full time job and taking classes on the side. It's a matter of whether you were actually trying to do your classes or messing around. I assure you they have hired people who have gotten their degree while working full time at a regional.

Mesabah
05-03-2018, 04:24 AM
As others have said, this is not what it meant. Don't get worked up easily.

It's situation based. A full time student doing a 4 year degree in 8 is different than a working student holding a full time job and taking classes on the side. It's a matter of whether you were actually trying to do your classes or messing around. I assure you they have hired people who have gotten their degree while working full time at a regional.
That's only if an actual human reviews your situation, which the DGI/SSP allows. Most people that apply, don't even make it that far.

WhiskeyDelta
05-03-2018, 04:27 AM
Yep, in 5 years, the majority of new hires will be civilian direct college hires from aviation programs, where everyone has $300K debt. Good times!


Do you have some inside knowledge on what Delta is working on for a collegiate program?

There are plenty of schools that donít require $300k in debt. Those that pursue the expensive schools do so for the name. My 141 alma mater is less than $100k in-state and less than $150k out of state.

4myfamily
05-03-2018, 04:33 AM
Can we get back to the DGI? Has anyone thatís ready for an interview contacted the company and if so what are they saying? I believe all the SSP and ETD people should be gone by June so DGI should start in July ď theoreticallyĒ

Two Kings
05-03-2018, 04:36 AM
None of the ETD people have been contacted. I donít think any will be leaving until at least October.

Mesabah
05-03-2018, 05:36 AM
Do you have some inside knowledge on what Delta is working on for a collegiate program?

There are plenty of schools that donít require $300k in debt. Those that pursue the expensive schools do so for the name. My 141 alma mater is less than $100k in-state and less than $150k out of state.
You don't need insider knowledge, the rate at which tuition is rising is exponential. That price you quoted for your alma mater is only temporary, it will rise to the level that ERAU is at now in a few years, and ERAU will be $500K+. This is what happens in degree inflation, it grows unchecked till it collapses.

WhiskeyDelta
05-03-2018, 05:44 AM
You don't need insider knowledge, the rate at which tuition is rising is exponential. That price you quoted for your alma mater is only temporary, it will rise to the level that ERAU is at now in a few years, and ERAU will be $500K+. This is what happens in degree inflation, it grows unchecked till it collapses.


Anything is possible, but my alma mater prides itself on a good value and will only raise flight training costs as the market demands. I can affirmatively say that this same school hasnít seen the same degree of degree inflation like others have. Again, value can be found if one puts in the effort.

SilentLurker
05-03-2018, 06:10 AM
Congrats to you for ďspending mommy and daddyísĒ money, youíre a dumbass. Some people, unlike you, are motivated to better themselves and learn a thing or two while at college. So again, I commend you for wasting four years of your life, or however many it took you, but donít overgeneralize and totally discredit having a degree. Besides, you have one, so quit being a snowflake. If you want to work at DAL, get a degree. Argue semantics all you want, itís a requirement.



I canít remember anything meaningful that I learned in college except maybe the subject tittles now & days.

College Subjects:

Statistics and probability, and calculusís ... i canít remember details.

Greeks & Roman history.... canít remember much. I do remember how they want us to believe Caesar was a bad hombre.

Aviation History... What did Charles Lindbergh do again???? I remember Deregulation in the 1970ís was a big deal.

Science: Amino acids & microbes sounds cool, I canít remember what they are do without a google search.

Math: yes I remember a2 +b2= c2.... how that effects my life I donít know.


I wish I learned about real estate, budgeting, stock /options trading, gardening and landscaping, plumbing, tech coding, how to speed read.

Mesabah
05-03-2018, 06:18 AM
I wish I learned about real estate, budgeting, stock /options trading, gardening and landscaping, plumbing, tech coding, how to speed read.
Those are mostly trades, that's not what college is for. My favorite is programming, since it is part of what I do, though I never went to college for it. Several Silicon Valley companies are now paying millions to get kids to drop out of college, because it's ruining their coding talent. The professors are all hacks when it comes to teaching that stuff, otherwise if they were good, they wouldn't be working at the college level.

College is to teach you how to deal with problem solving from a variety of opposing viewpoints. However, opposing viewpoints are no longer allowed on campus. You can be expelled pulling that ****.

Baradium
05-03-2018, 06:35 AM
That's only if an actual human reviews your situation, which the DGI/SSP allows. Most people that apply, don't even make it that far.

You are very confident in what causes a human to view your application. The DGI/SSP is a guaranteed interview, applications are reviewed when they are scored. There is no evidence that "time to complete degree" is part of the computer filtering before applications are scored.

Mesabah
05-03-2018, 07:13 AM
You are very confident in what causes a human to view your application. The DGI/SSP is a guaranteed interview, applications are reviewed when they are scored. There is no evidence that "time to complete degree" is part of the computer filtering before applications are scored.Isn't that their second line of the requirements?


Graduate of a four-year degree program from a college or university accredited by a U.S. Dept. of Education recognized accrediting organization. It's purposely worded like that, so time to complete degree can be a consideration. Contrast that with Fedex, that says, Bachelor's degree required.

A Baccalaureate degree is officially defined as, an undergraduate academic degree awarded by colleges and universities upon completion of a course of study lasting three to seven years.

Baradium
05-03-2018, 11:52 PM
Isn't that their second line of the requirements?


It's purposely worded like that, so time to complete degree can be a consideration. Contrast that with Fedex, that says, Bachelor's degree required.

A Baccalaureate degree is officially defined as, an undergraduate academic degree awarded by colleges and universities upon completion of a course of study lasting three to seven years.

That's some high level conspiracy theory stuff there.

First, they don't need to word it that way to be "able to" consider timeframe.

Second, it is well understood that "four year degree" is a bachelor's degree, as opposed to an associate's degree which is a 2 year degree. They are used interchangeably.

You make some good points sometimes, but this one is just ridiculous. By this logic, if someone takes 4 years to get an associates degree they qualify because it was a "4 year degree."

Mesabah
05-04-2018, 02:33 AM
By this logic, if someone takes 4 years to get an associates degree they qualify because it was a "4 year degree."I don't know how you got that from my post, but a 4 year degree program is a full time student to a Bachelor's degree. Delta, other than for an internship(must be a full time student), always lists the degree requirement as an Associate's, Bachelor's, or Masters. It's well know that Delta considers length of time to complete a Bachelor's in the pilot position. Just look at Delta's other job listings where a degree is required, the never say 2 year, 4 year, 6 year program.

saab340driver
05-04-2018, 05:04 AM
Can we get back to the DGI? Has anyone thatís ready for an interview contacted the company and if so what are they saying? I believe all the SSP and ETD people should be gone by June so DGI should start in July ď theoreticallyĒ

I agree...this thread got hijacked by a few. Regarding the DGI, haven't heard much from the 7th floor. Either it's a moot point or the secret will be announced within a few weeks.

Mesabah
05-04-2018, 05:26 AM
I agree...this thread got hijacked by a few. Regarding the DGI, haven't heard much from the 7th floor. Either it's a moot point or the secret will be announced within a few weeks.
There is nothing to talk about with the DGI, everyone should have their app in already if you want to move to Delta. They'll have to interview outside of the DGI since the EtD's aren't moving. It will hurt recruiting if they don't keep the movement up.

Flogger
05-04-2018, 05:39 AM
I don't know how you got that from my post, but a 4 year degree program is a full time student to a Bachelor's degree. Delta, other than for an internship(must be a full time student), always lists the degree requirement as an Associate's, Bachelor's, or Masters. It's well know that Delta considers length of time to complete a Bachelor's in the pilot position. Just look at Delta's other job listings where a degree is required, the never say 2 year, 4 year, 6 year program.

Here is my take on the degree thingy. You got a huge stack of apps.You use the degree requirement as a way to make the stack smaller and your job easier, or you simply don't allow none-degree apps to even get in the pile. That's about the only value of the degree. Delta has demonstraed they really don't care about the degree by hiring pilots without a degree.

It simply makes the job of filling classes easier. If the day ever comes that DL is not getting enough apps, the degree will be the first fruit to fall off the tree. Then wind checks, then volunteerism.

Avroman
05-04-2018, 05:40 PM
Here is my take on the degree thingy. You got a huge stack of apps.You use the degree requirement as a way to make the stack smaller and your job easier, or you simply don't allow none-degree apps to even get in the pile. That's about the only value of the degree. Delta has demonstraed they really don't care about the degree by hiring pilots without a degree.

It simply makes the job of filling classes easier. If the day ever comes that DL is not getting enough apps, the degree will be the first fruit to fall off the tree. Then wind checks, then volunteerism.

It's no different than the military over the years.... I've been told there's a waiver for everything, but only if the military sees a need to give it to you.

JetDoc
05-05-2018, 09:44 AM
Here is my take on the degree thingy. You got a huge stack of apps.You use the degree requirement as a way to make the stack smaller and your job easier, or you simply don't allow none-degree apps to even get in the pile. That's about the only value of the degree. Delta has demonstraed they really don't care about the degree by hiring pilots without a degree.

It simply makes the job of filling classes easier. If the day ever comes that DL is not getting enough apps, the degree will be the first fruit to fall off the tree. Then wind checks, then volunteerism.

I agree with you to a point but as you eluded to in your post, I feel that that logic will not work for much longer. The stack of apps that delta has is not nearly as deep as they think it is and here is why. I myself have apps out at 4 different companies and I WILL go to the first one that offers me a position, effectively removing my app from the other 3 stacks. Now extrapolate that out over every guy trying to move on. I would opine that the vast majority of us have at least 2 apps out if not many more. Divide that stack by 3 or maybe 4 and that is the true figure that all of the airlines have to pick from. Now I do understand that the pool is dynamic with people entering and leaving it everyday but he point still stands, the true stack is not nearly as deep as everyone thinks it is. With the massive amounts of retirements still yet to come it is a discriminator that will not be sustainable. That being said, we all know that all the major airlines are pretty arrogant when it comes to their hiring and they may very well believe that that stack they have over at HR is full of folks who only want to work at that particular airline but they do so at their own peril.

jules11
05-05-2018, 03:39 PM
I agree with you to a point but as you eluded to in your post, I feel that that logic will not work for much longer. The stack of apps that delta has is not nearly as deep as they think it is and here is why. I myself have apps out at 4 different companies and I WILL go to the first one that offers me a position, effectively removing my app from the other 3 stacks. Now extrapolate that out over every guy trying to move on. I would opine that the vast majority of us have at least 2 apps out if not many more. Divide that stack by 3 or maybe 4 and that is the true figure that all of the airlines have to pick from. Now I do understand that the pool is dynamic with people entering and leaving it everyday but he point still stands, the true stack is not nearly as deep as everyone thinks it is. With the massive amounts of retirements still yet to come it is a discriminator that will not be sustainable. That being said, we all know that all the major airlines are pretty arrogant when it comes to their hiring and they may very well believe that that stack they have over at HR is full of folks who only want to work at that particular airline but they do so at their own peril.

Couldn't agree more. They love to boast the fact that they have 11,000+ applications on file but don't seem to realize that we know that the overwhelming majority of those applicants have also applied to one or more other major or low cost airlines and will likely go to, and remain at, the first one that takes them.

atpcliff
05-05-2018, 04:24 PM
I agree with you to a point but as you eluded to in your post, I feel that that logic will not work for much longer. The stack of apps that delta has is not nearly as deep as they think it is and here is why. I myself have apps out at 4 different companies and I WILL go to the first one that offers me a position, effectively removing my app from the other 3 stacks. Now extrapolate that out over every guy trying to move on. I would opine that the vast majority of us have at least 2 apps out if not many more. Divide that stack by 3 or maybe 4 and that is the true figure that all of the airlines have to pick from. Now I do understand that the pool is dynamic with people entering and leaving it everyday but he point still stands, the true stack is not nearly as deep as everyone thinks it is. With the massive amounts of retirements still yet to come it is a discriminator that will not be sustainable. That being said, we all know that all the major airlines are pretty arrogant when it comes to their hiring and they may very well believe that that stack they have over at HR is full of folks who only want to work at that particular airline but they do so at their own peril.

The last two people I heard from who had talked to AA HR in 2017, said they had 3000 resumes that met the mins, down from 13,000 in 2007.

msprj2
05-06-2018, 03:36 AM
The last two people I heard from who had talked to AA HR in 2017, said they had 3000 resumes that met the mins, down from 13,000 in 2007.

Doesnít AA have a regional flow program? How many are in that group?

Avroman
05-06-2018, 04:23 AM
Doesnít AA have a regional flow program? How many are in that group?

Ballpark of 4000 among all 3

TransWorld
05-06-2018, 05:50 AM
Ballpark of 4000 among all 3

I believe the original words quoted were they had 3000 apps that were competitive (or some similar word). I wonder how many FO and newly minted CA with the WOs are considered competitive by AA HR? With the amount of relatively new hires, my guess is not many.

Baradium
05-06-2018, 08:28 AM
I believe the original words quoted were they had 3000 apps that were competitive (or some similar word). I wonder how many FO and newly minted CA with the WOs are considered competitive by AA HR? With the amount of relatively new hires, my guess is not many.

They don't need to be competitive. They have a no interview flow so they just move to AA when their number comes up.

TransWorld
05-06-2018, 09:42 AM
They don't need to be competitive. They have a no interview flow so they just move to AA when their number comes up.

I understand your point. I don’t have knowledge inside the minds of AA HR, but I doubt the 3,000 competitive apps. included the ‘non-competative’ FO and newly minted CA at the WOs. Yes, they have flow, but I doubt they count the 1,501 hour FO that just started flying the line yesterday as being competitive. Just my educated guess.

Baradium
05-06-2018, 04:00 PM
I understand your point. I donít have knowledge inside the minds of AA HR, but I doubt the 3,000 competitive apps. included the Ďnon-competativeí FO and newly minted CA at the WOs. Yes, they have flow, but I doubt they count the 1,501 hour FO that just started flying the line yesterday as being competitive. Just my educated guess.

I understand they don't have to have applications in either, so I don't think they count in the number regardless.

1337pilot
05-07-2018, 12:13 PM
Enough about AA. As of right now, it's almost impossible to get in there outside of one of their three flows. If you want to get hired there off the street you have to either be a check airman, military, know someone, or have something else special about you that makes them take you. This is from an AA pilot that actually showed me the numbers from their union about where their new hires come from. Now, when their retirements accelerate this will all probably change. But for now most of their new hires are flows that have spent the better part of the last decade or longer at Envoy and friends. Don't get me wrong, I like AA, but for the time being just being a regular RJ line pilot at Endeavor you probably have a better chance at DL.

That being said, has there been anymore news about the DGI or anything related? Since the last 3 pages of this thread are about AA.

Flogger
05-07-2018, 12:27 PM
Enough about AA. As of right now, it's almost impossible to get in there outside of one of their three flows. If you want to get hired there off the street you have to either be a check airman, military, know someone, or have something else special about you that makes them take you. This is from an AA pilot that actually showed me the numbers from their union about where their new hires come from. Now, when their retirements accelerate this will all probably change. But for now most of their new hires are flows that have spent the better part of the last decade or longer at Envoy and friends. Don't get me wrong, I like AA, but for the time being just being a regular RJ line pilot at Endeavor you probably have a better chance at DL.

That being said, has there been anymore news about the DGI or anything related? Since the last 3 pages of this thread are about AA.

No word on DGI and there's the rub. I was not here for the SSP, but the folks who tanked on that one very much blame a lack of communication.

Now, granted that none of the folks who got to DL thru the SSP are around to brag about the attributes of the program, only folks who feel negative about it are around to beech. That being said, the silence about DGI is disconcerting.

Mesabah
05-07-2018, 12:48 PM
The EtD is what failed, not the DGI. The union said they were working with these guys to get them moving. However, looking at the last SL, one still hasn't upgraded yet, so the two year clock hasn't even started.

1337pilot
05-07-2018, 12:55 PM
The EtD is what failed, not the DGI. The union said they were working with these guys to get them moving. However, looking at the last SL, one still hasn't upgraded yet, so the two year clock hasn't even started.
If they really wanted to get a move on it, they could tell him to sh1t or get off the pot. One guy's personal decision or lack of motivation not to upgrade shouldn't be their excuse, unless of course the DGI was a gimmick. Now why one would want to spend anymore time then they have to on regional FO pay when they have a mainline job waiting for them.... beyond me.

flydiamond
05-07-2018, 01:12 PM
The EtD is what failed, not the DGI. The union said they were working with these guys to get them moving. However, looking at the last SL, one still hasn't upgraded yet, so the two year clock hasn't even started.

So when does the first non-rehire captain under the DGI actually become eligible? Not one who is counting prior service as captain to Pinnacle and was told by recruiting that that time counts towards 2 years, but one that came in, maybe from Air Wisconsin or where not and upgraded within a few months. Iíd be real concerned if that person is becoming eligible in the next 3 months and we still havenít heard anything. But I think weíre still 5 months or so away from that. And I really donít think that the ETD guys will hold up the DGI... morale would tank fast.

1337pilot
05-07-2018, 01:31 PM
So when does the first non-rehire captain under the DGI actually become eligible? Not one who is counting prior service as captain to Pinnacle and was told by recruiting that that time counts towards 2 years, but one that came in, maybe from Air Wisconsin or where not and upgraded within a few months. Iíd be real concerned if that person is becoming eligible in the next 3 months and we still havenít heard anything. But I think weíre still 5 months or so away from that. And I really donít think that the ETD guys will hold up the DGI... morale would tank fast.
That's about the number I've heard 5 to 6 months off still, and I think there are a few SSP folks to go as well. I personally am not holding my breath for DGI to happen at all, I just wanted to get the thread back on track and see if anyone knew or heard anything. The way I see it, we all have to start at a regional, and at least we managed to set the standard not too badly for hourly pay. As a CA here I'll be significantly wealthier than all of my buddies I went to college with (non-aviation), with still a fraction of the actual work of a "real" job, and a pretty good idea of a future career path. I'm not particularly interested in working at DL anyway, my goal is to get some PIC experience and see how the landscape looks in a couple years then decide what to do next. And in the meantime if stuck here for a while, it's not a bad place to be overall, and I hope that continues.

Mesabah
05-07-2018, 01:47 PM
If they really wanted to get a move on it, they could tell him to sh1t or get off the pot. One guy's personal decision or lack of motivation not to upgrade shouldn't be their excuse, unless of course the DGI was a gimmick. Now why one would want to spend anymore time then they have to on regional FO pay when they have a mainline job waiting for them.... beyond me.
They may have a decent military pension, as the requirements for the EtD were ridiculous. The DGI is not a gimmick, the EtD was. The question is what legal options Delta has, they can't interview in seniority order(violates the EtD), but they could interview in the order in which you submitted your application.

1337pilot
05-07-2018, 03:19 PM
They may have a decent military pension, as the requirements for the EtD were ridiculous. The DGI is not a gimmick, the EtD was. The question is what legal options Delta has, they can't interview in seniority order(violates the EtD), but they could interview in the order in which you submitted your application.
Well, EtD was contractual, DGI is not, it's just a promise (which is why I'm not holding my breath). But since that's the case, couldn't they just say since you currently work at EDV (or anywhere for that matter) you're free to apply to DL whenever you want and if you have been a CA for two years and were hired between date X and date X you'll be automatically selected for an interview? I'm sure DL's legal team would be good enough to be able to deal with one guy who basically has decided to waive his right as it appears.

theUpsideDown
05-07-2018, 04:50 PM
Well, EtD was contractual, DGI is not, it's just a promise (which is why I'm not holding my breath). But since that's the case, couldn't they just say since you currently work at EDV (or anywhere for that matter) you're free to apply to DL whenever you want and if you have been a CA for two years and were hired between date X and date X you'll be automatically selected for an interview? I'm sure DL's legal team would be good enough to be able to deal with one guy who basically has decided to waive his right as it appears.
SSP is contractual. EtD and DGI are not.

msprj2
05-07-2018, 07:12 PM
If they really wanted to get a move on it, they could tell him to sh1t or get off the pot. One guy's personal decision or lack of motivation not to upgrade shouldn't be their excuse, unless of course the DGI was a gimmick. Now why one would want to spend anymore time then they have to on regional FO pay when they have a mainline job waiting for them.... beyond me.

Itís ironic that the entity holding everyone back isnít mgt, Alpa, or
Delta but rather one of us. If Endeavor shorted you all a nickel you would be pi$$ed. But
Some pilot screws you out of $ and career advancement you
Donít say nothing. Pathetic

4myfamily
05-07-2018, 09:34 PM
SSP is contractual. EtD and DGI are not.

There are a several of us in which the DGI is contractual and we get no help from
Union or company.

theUpsideDown
05-08-2018, 02:43 AM
There are a several of us in which the DGI is contractual and we get no help from
Union or company.

Don't blame the union. They've already done everything they can with that LOA.

You came to this company under a DGI with no contractual or company guarantee. I might add when you came here it was still called the GIP, remember that? The union can't hold them to a promise that isnt defined. If the DGI is amended to a tour of the Delta museum in ATL and a swift kick in the posterior theyve checkmarked that item off the contract.

HeyOneTaco
05-08-2018, 02:56 AM
Don't blame the union. They've already done everything they can with that LOA.

You came to this company under a DGI with no contractual or company guarantee. I might add when you came here it was still called the GIP, remember that? The union can't hold them to a promise that isnt defined. If the DGI is amended to a tour of the Delta museum in ATL and a swift kick in the posterior theyve checkmarked that item off the contract.

If I enjoy that can I come back for the 6 month AND 12 month ones too?? :rolleyes:

theUpsideDown
05-08-2018, 04:49 AM
If I enjoy that can I come back for the 6 month AND 12 month ones too?? :rolleyes:
I know right?

To all:
The sooner our pilot group understands that they made a choice coming here, there's a reality to that choice, the happier the pilot group will be. If no one shows up for new hire class it might change, or if enough people leave all at once it might change.

The pretending the DGI is anything meaningful, is embarasing and I'm sick of it.

Everyone stop blaming the union, it makes you sound stupid and petty. It's not the unions fault they thought the GIP/DGI is/was a joke, and refused to waste a minute of negotating effort while our bankruptcy wages were still propped up by a bonus program. Of course, after months and sometimes YEARS you all figured out what the union and everyone here knew from the beginning, and you're mad at the union for it? Shaddyap!

msprj2
05-08-2018, 05:24 AM
I know right?

To all:
The sooner our pilot group understands that they made a choice coming here, there's a reality to that choice, the happier the pilot group will be. If no one shows up for new hire class it might change, or if enough people leave all at once it might change.

The pretending the DGI is anything meaningful, is embarasing and I'm sick of it.

Everyone stop blaming the union, it makes you sound stupid and petty. It's not the unions fault they thought the GIP/DGI is/was a joke, and refused to waste a minute of negotating effort while our bankruptcy wages were still propped up by a bonus program. Of course, after months and sometimes YEARS you all figured out what the union and everyone here knew from the beginning, and you're mad at the union for it? Shaddyap!

Thereís nothing wrong with the DGI. Itís all it says it is. An interview after 2 years as a captain right?
No one is even eligible to participate yet. If you think 9e and Delta wonít honor it youíre crazy.

Avroman
05-08-2018, 05:42 AM
Thereís nothing wrong with the DGI. Itís all it says it is. An interview after 2 years as a captain right?
No one is even eligible to participate yet. If you think 9e and Delta wonít honor it youíre crazy.

Oh I'm sure they'll honor the interview, that doesn't guarantee they will hire very many people from the program.

theUpsideDown
05-08-2018, 07:06 AM
There’s nothing wrong with the DGI. It’s all it says it is. An interview after 2 years as a captain right?
No one is even eligible to participate yet. If you think 9e and Delta won’t honor it you’re crazy.

I'm eligible as are 3 others. So I'm crazy?

msprj2
05-08-2018, 07:27 AM
I'm eligible as are 3 others. So I'm crazy?

Why are you on this forum and not emailing, calling and knocking on TW, RA, J? And BLís office doors?

theUpsideDown
05-08-2018, 08:09 AM
Why are you on this forum and not emailing, calling and knocking on TW, RA, J? And BLís office doors?

It' been done for months now. If ur in one of our recurrents you'll hear them tell us the newest date when they'll honor it.

Baradium
05-08-2018, 08:09 AM
I'm eligible as are 3 others. So I'm crazy?

When the interview comes are you going to be able to drop the bitter attitude and vitriol?


You've already narrowed your identity down to one of 4 people, if you really want to go to Delta this isn't a path you want to be taking IMO.



I would happily put money down that it will happen. My understanding is the last SSP pilots haven't even left yet. Since the DGI is not allowed to begin until after the SSP is finished, I don't see the cause for all this.


Sure, it'd be nice to have the plan well in advance, but that doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen.

theUpsideDown
05-08-2018, 08:15 AM
When the interview comes are you going to be able to drop the bitter attitude and vitriol?


You've already narrowed your identity down to one of 4 people, if you really want to go to Delta this isn't a path you want to be taking IMO.



I would happily put money down that it will happen. My understanding is the last SSP pilots haven't even left yet. Since the DGI is not allowed to begin until after the SSP is finished, I don't see the cause for all this.


Sure, it'd be nice to have the plan well in advance, but that doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen.
I apologise for correcting a factual inaccuracy.

Baradium
05-08-2018, 08:23 AM
I apologise for correcting a factual inaccuracy.


The pretending the DGI is anything meaningful, is embarasing and I'm sick of it.


This is the type of stuff that I think it setting yourself up.



DAL is internally touting the DGI and they offered everyone who was at the company before an interview with the SSP. I fully believe that the interviews are going to happen. Take advantage of the time between when you think it should happen and it actually does to prepare further than you have already.

theUpsideDown
05-08-2018, 08:47 AM
This is the type of stuff that I think it setting yourself up.



DAL is internally touting the DGI and they offered everyone who was at the company before an interview with the SSP. I fully believe that the interviews are going to happen. Take advantage of the time between when you think it should happen and it actually does to prepare further than you have already.
So just to be clear: what you want to address is not the facts of the DGI, simply you wish to say is if I don't start clapping, tinkerbell won't live. Sidenote that if i dont change the DGI won't be a success for me. Also you feel comfortable speaking for Delta and Delta HR. Furthermore that I haven't studied, or better yet that I wouldnt study (even if i had).

I was simply stating the DGI as is stands qualifies some of our pilots to go at this moment but no interview is occurring.

What evidence do you submit that the DGI will happen, and that

TalkTurkey
05-08-2018, 08:58 AM
So just to be clear: what you want to address is not the facts of the DGI, simply you wish to say is if I don't start clapping, tinkerbell won't live. Sidenote that if i dont change the DGI won't be a success for me. Also you feel comfortable speaking for Delta and Delta HR. Furthermore that I haven't studied, or better yet that I wouldnt study (even if i had).

I was simply stating the DGI as is stands qualifies some of our pilots to go at this moment but no interview is occurring.

What evidence do you submit that the DGI will happen, and that

you seem a little unlikeable. just go to PSA and get a flow. stop crying. Wait...actually you're every bit DAL material. Good luck.

Baradium
05-08-2018, 09:07 AM
So just to be clear: what you want to address is not the facts of the DGI, simply you wish to say is if I don't start clapping, tinkerbell won't live. Sidenote that if i dont change the DGI won't be a success for me. Also you feel comfortable speaking for Delta and Delta HR. Furthermore that I haven't studied, or better yet that I wouldnt study (even if i had).

I was simply stating the DGI as is stands qualifies some of our pilots to go at this moment but no interview is occurring.

What evidence do you submit that the DGI will happen, and that

I'm just saying that negativity isn't going to get you anywhere. No one has shown anything to indicate that the DGI is not going to happen, just complaints that it is slow to start. If the qualified people are RTW, I don't recall ever hearing anything that the DGI would start just for them, only that previous time would count for being qualified.

The negativity part is because if you spend enough time being negative, it tends to show in interviews. You didn't just say that there are qualified pilots and no interviews happened, you said that it flat out won't. I didn't presume that you didn't prepare at all, just said to do it more. The interview is incredibly difficult. I do not speak for Delta HR or mgmt, so please do not put words in my mouth. I simply advise that being too negative on here about the program that you hope to use to get to DAL certainly cannot be helpful to your goals.


Delta saying they are going to do it and even advocating it internally at mainline is enough for me to be confident it will happen.

theUpsideDown
05-08-2018, 10:01 AM
I'm just saying that negativity isn't going to get you anywhere. No one has shown anything to indicate that the DGI is not going to happen, just complaints that it is slow to start. If the qualified people are RTW, I don't recall ever hearing anything that the DGI would start just for them, only that previous time would count for being qualified.

The negativity part is because if you spend enough time being negative, it tends to show in interviews. You didn't just say that there are qualified pilots and no interviews happened, you said that it flat out won't. I didn't presume that you didn't prepare at all, just said to do it more. The interview is incredibly difficult. I do not speak for Delta HR or mgmt, so please do not put words in my mouth. I simply advise that being too negative on here about the program that you hope to use to get to DAL certainly cannot be helpful to your goals.


Delta saying they are going to do it and even advocating it internally at mainline is enough for me to be confident it will happen.

What I said was that the DGI wasn't meaningful. Not that it wouldn't start. I did say that there are pilots here qualified and no interview has happened.

Also I'd refer you to my and your previous posts as to what you're "just" saying, and that will clarify the rest of the above.

The DGI, as it stands, will have to change (again). But none of that was what i was referring to. A post was made blaming the union, for the DGI not going. My point was to stop blaming the union. As ive said for a while, you chose to come here with a dgi that had no contractual binding.

On one of my post i was corrected about no one being eligible, which is factually incorrect, and i replied. You came in shortly after needing to correct my attitude.

My point is and remains don't blame the union or even other pilots for this DGI not being what it was sold as. There are far too many opportunities, and if you aren't happy here leave. I have no problem showing up here for work, doing my job, and getting that check (my favorite part).

Now if I'm not positive enough for you, in my viewpoint that's a "you" problem not a "me" problem.

Blueskies21
05-08-2018, 11:26 AM
Now if I'm not positive enough for you, in my viewpoint that's a "you" problem not a "me" problem.

He was trying to tell you to chill and instead you went on a rant to tell him he's wrong, interesting.

For clarity, this is a 9E guy currently AT Delta, maybe his opinion is actually pretty worthwhile for what's required to get to Delta.

Lastly, we all know the DGI can't start until the SSP's are gone. (There's some question whether the ETD pilots also hold it up) Last I heard the last SSP's expected to be gone in June. Once the last SSP's are gone there will be something to complain about, until then, it's all speculation. They don't HAVE to tell us a bunch before then; July 1 they could say "send us an email and submit your app to Delta" it's not necessarily a huge process.

But if you want to continue to be all riled up, be my guest.

theUpsideDown
05-08-2018, 12:00 PM
He was trying to tell you to chill and instead you went on a rant to tell him he's wrong, interesting.

For clarity, this is a 9E guy currently AT Delta, maybe his opinion is actually pretty worthwhile for what's required to get to Delta.

Lastly, we all know the DGI can't start until the SSP's are gone. (There's some question whether the ETD pilots also hold it up) Last I heard the last SSP's expected to be gone in June. Once the last SSP's are gone there will be something to complain about, until then, it's all speculation. They don't HAVE to tell us a bunch before then; July 1 they could say "send us an email and submit your app to Delta" it's not necessarily a huge process.

But if you want to continue to be all riled up, be my guest.

Normally i would take my time and shrink my reply length. If it comes off as a rant that isn't my intent. I hit his high point, referred him to the rest of my posts if he has some question on my position or his own (because it is in flux), and then resaid what I said. It's gone from I'm wrong, to I'm not positive enough, to I'm not chill enough, and maybe that's what I get for posting here.

I've been warned not to post because facts are the last thing that matter online. So while I mockingly thank you and others for your pro-tips, I'm done. Let the [female dog]-boards be the [female-dog]-boards.

4myfamily
05-08-2018, 02:02 PM
What I said was that the DGI wasn't meaningful. Not that it wouldn't start. I did say that there are pilots here qualified and no interview has happened.

Also I'd refer you to my and your previous posts as to what you're "just" saying, and that will clarify the rest of the above.

The DGI, as it stands, will have to change (again). But none of that was what i was referring to. A post was made blaming the union, for the DGI not going. My point was to stop blaming the union. As ive said for a while, you chose to come here with a dgi that had no contractual binding.

On one of my post i was corrected about no one being eligible, which is factually incorrect, and i replied. You came in shortly after needing to correct my attitude.

My point is and remains don't blame the union or even other pilots for this DGI not being what it was sold as. There are far too many opportunities, and if you aren't happy here leave. I have no problem showing up here for work, doing my job, and getting that check (my favorite part).

Now if I'm not positive enough for you, in my viewpoint that's a "you" problem not a "me" problem.

Filler is my only option

vessbot
05-08-2018, 09:54 PM
Once the last SSP's are gone there will be something to complain about, until then, it's all speculation.

If he's eligible for the DGI now, according to the DGI document (which makes no reference to the SSP in the eligibility criteria or timing), and he's not receiving his DGI now, then that's very much something to complain about.

Baradium
05-09-2018, 07:59 AM
If he's eligible for the DGI now, according to the DGI document (which makes no reference to the SSP in the eligibility criteria or timing), and he's not receiving his DGI now, then that's very much something to complain about.

The SSP has wording regarding successor programs and when they can start movement.

vessbot
05-09-2018, 08:19 AM
The SSP has wording regarding successor programs and when they can start movement.

I'm talking about DGI wording, not SSP wording. SSP has nothing to do with it.

If Al makes me a promise (a "guaranteed" one, at that) to do something for me in exchange for something I did for him, and he doesn't hold up his end, that's on him. Whatever deal he has with Bob that's preventing him from following through, is between Al and Bob, not between Al and me. If that's the impediment, then Al made a promise he couldn't keep, and I'm left holding the bag.

msprj2
05-09-2018, 10:47 AM
I'm talking about DGI wording, not SSP wording. SSP has nothing to do with it.

If Al makes me a promise (a "guaranteed" one, at that) to do something for me in exchange for something I did for him, and he doesn't hold up his end, that's on him. Whatever deal he has with Bob that's preventing him from following through, is between Al and Bob, not between Al and me. If that's the impediment, then Al made a promise he couldn't keep, and I'm left holding the bag.

Geez Neil settle down.
There is a line formed. You donít get to go the front of it. When the line is gone you can interview and if all goes well exchange your uniform.

DL31082
05-10-2018, 07:42 AM
I'm talking about DGI wording, not SSP wording. SSP has nothing to do with it.

If Al makes me a promise (a "guaranteed" one, at that) to do something for me in exchange for something I did for him, and he doesn't hold up his end, that's on him. Whatever deal he has with Bob that's preventing him from following through, is between Al and Bob, not between Al and me. If that's the impediment, then Al made a promise he couldn't keep, and I'm left holding the bag.

The SSP is contractual, the DGI is not. The company has to comply with the wording of the SSP. It states that the SSP must be complete before any other program starts.

The DGI can be taken away completely tomorrow if the company wants to do that, because it was never signed by our collective bargaining agent which is ALPA. The company can also change the terms and conditions on that document on a whim, because it wasnít signed by ALPA. This isnít a knock on ALPA, the goal is to get something better. Hopefully ALPA achieves that goal.

Casualinterest
05-10-2018, 08:47 AM
The SSP is contractual, the DGI is not. The company has to comply with the wording of the SSP. It states that the SSP must be complete before any other program starts.

The DGI can be taken away completely tomorrow if the company wants to do that, because it was never signed by our collective bargaining agent which is ALPA. The company can also change the terms and conditions on that document on a whim, because it wasnít signed by ALPA. This isnít a knock on ALPA, the goal is to get something better. Hopefully ALPA achieves that goal.And we have a winner

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

flyingmau5
05-10-2018, 10:35 AM
The SSP is contractual, the DGI is not. The company has to comply with the wording of the SSP. It states that the SSP must be complete before any other program starts.

The DGI can be taken away completely tomorrow if the company wants to do that, because it was never signed by our collective bargaining agent which is ALPA. The company can also change the terms and conditions on that document on a whim, because it wasnít signed by ALPA. This isnít a knock on ALPA, the goal is to get something better. Hopefully ALPA achieves that goal.

Somewhat true/false. There is a small group where the DGI is contractual. Those guys were hired from the start of 2015 to July of 2015.

vessbot
05-10-2018, 11:37 AM
The SSP is contractual, the DGI is not. The company has to comply with the wording of the SSP. It states that the SSP must be complete before any other program starts.

The DGI can be taken away completely tomorrow if the company wants to do that, because it was never signed by our collective bargaining agent which is ALPA. The company can also change the terms and conditions on that document on a whim, because it wasnít signed by ALPA. This isnít a knock on ALPA, the goal is to get something better. Hopefully ALPA achieves that goal.

All of this is true. None of it justifies reneging on a promise, or should satisfy the recipient of that reneged promise. It's very bizarre that that recipient is told that he's unreasonable for being upset and should shut up about it.

It does reinforce the importance of getting a promise in writing, and also undermines the worth of a casual, non-contractual one. "Guaranteed" in the title notwithstanding.

msprj2
05-10-2018, 02:10 PM
The SSP is contractual, the DGI is not. The company has to comply with the wording of the SSP. It states that the SSP must be complete before any other program starts.

The DGI can be taken away completely tomorrow if the company wants to do that, because it was never signed by our collective bargaining agent which is ALPA. The company can also change the terms and conditions on that document on a whim, because it wasnít signed by ALPA. This isnít a knock on ALPA, the goal is to get something better. Hopefully ALPA achieves that goal.

And the sky could fall to there chicken little. Contracts have been voided, pensions have been lost nothing is in stone.
The DGI will be essentially the same as the SSP. Just an interview with a thumbs up or down. If 9e decides to throw out the SSP this place will become just like the other mediocre regionals. Pilots bailing for any ULCC or ďflowĒ
Regional. Having that interview slows attrition and they know it.

HeyOneTaco
05-10-2018, 02:13 PM
Email from Joe Miller said they are aware of folks being eligible in September of this year. He said theyíre committed to making this program happen and ironing out the details. After meeting him in person and speaking to him at length, I actually have trust they will have this squared away for us. He seems like a real solid dude IMO

DL31082
05-11-2018, 07:21 AM
And the sky could fall to there chicken little. Contracts have been voided, pensions have been lost nothing is in stone.
The DGI will be essentially the same as the SSP. Just an interview with a thumbs up or down. If 9e decides to throw out the SSP this place will become just like the other mediocre regionals. Pilots bailing for any ULCC or ďflowĒ
Regional. Having that interview slows attrition and they know it.

I was directly responding to the poster that said the SSP and the DGI have nothing to do with each other and that the SSP language doesnít stop the implementation of the DGI. My point was the fact that the SSP language stating that no other program can start until the SSP is over, is contractual language and has to be complied with.

I wasnít talking about how good or bad the DGI compared to a flow. Both programs are more about staffing regionals then moving them to mainline.

FollowMe
05-11-2018, 09:10 AM
All of this is true. None of it justifies reneging on a promise, or should satisfy the recipient of that reneged promise. It's very bizarre that that recipient is told that he's unreasonable for being upset and should shut up about it.

It does reinforce the importance of getting a promise in writing, and also undermines the worth of a casual, non-contractual one. "Guaranteed" in the title notwithstanding.

http://gyitsakalakis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Tommy-Boy.png

Flogger
05-25-2018, 07:27 AM
These are all improvements. The most important being another chance for the SSP guys.


For those that didnt check their email. Big news with the DGI.



33% of all delta hires to be DGI CJO's
SSP candidates get one more shot
18 Months as CA instead of 24
24 names per month submitted







To: All Endeavor Pilots
From: Joe Miller, COO
Russ Elander, Vice President, Operations
Subject: Enhancements to the Delta Guaranteed Interview Program
Over the past few months, leaders from Endeavor have been working with Delta Flight Ops to finalize details surrounding the Delta Guaranteed Interview (DGI) Program. The DGI places Endeavor pilots ahead of the thousands who desire to fly at Delta. Through the DGI Program, Endeavor pilots will have an opportunity to join the 780 Endeavor pilots who have already been hired at Delta during the past four years.
Today, we are sharing exciting improvements made to this exclusive hiring commitment between Endeavor and Delta. Some of the highlights of the DGI program for Endeavor pilots who are interested in participating include:
∑Endeavor pilots must meet all position and hiring requirements of Delta Air Lines which can be found at https://www.deltajobs.net/pilots.htm.
oParticipants will be required to participate in Deltaís full selection process which includes testing, interview and psychological evaluation.
∑We reduced the Captain flying time requirement - an Endeavor Pilot must now have only 18 months as a Captain at Endeavor versus the previous requirement of 24 months.
∑We doubled the number of names to be sent to Delta each month for interviews, increasing from 12 to 24.
∑Former SSP eligible Endeavor pilots who either did not participate in SSP, or who were unsuccessful with the SSP interview process, will receive one opportunity to participate in the DGI Program.
oSpecific rules surrounding former SSP pilots are outlined in the DGI Program document.
∑The DGI Program includes an annual hiring commitment from Delta requiring it to offer a number of positions to Endeavor pilots holding DGI CJOs equal to 33% of Deltaís annual pilot hires, or 180 pilots per year, whichever is less.
The DGI program will provide Endeavor pilots with an opportunity to work at the most respected global airline in the industry. Your individual performance and support of the mainline customer are what makes these types of programs possible.
Thank you for all you do to support the airline, your colleagues, and the customers you fly each day.
Casualinterest is online now Report Post

Happyflyer
05-25-2018, 09:09 AM
Is this in senority order, or every qualifying CA has a chance every month to be 1 the 24 interviews?

VoiceOfReason
05-25-2018, 09:42 AM
Is this in senority order, or every qualifying CA has a chance every month to be 1 the 24 interviews?

Seniority, with that break down of 75% DGI and 25% SSP. The Company can flex those numbers based off eligible pilots.

SGRogue
05-25-2018, 09:56 AM
These are all improvements. The most important being another chance for the SSP guys.


For those that didnt check their email. Big news with the DGI.



33% of all delta hires to be DGI CJO's
SSP candidates get one more shot
18 Months as CA instead of 24
24 names per month submitted







To: All Endeavor Pilots
From: Joe Miller, COO
Russ Elander, Vice President, Operations
Subject: Enhancements to the Delta Guaranteed Interview Program
Over the past few months, leaders from Endeavor have been working with Delta Flight Ops to finalize details surrounding the Delta Guaranteed Interview (DGI) Program. The DGI places Endeavor pilots ahead of the thousands who desire to fly at Delta. Through the DGI Program, Endeavor pilots will have an opportunity to join the 780 Endeavor pilots who have already been hired at Delta during the past four years.
Today, we are sharing exciting improvements made to this exclusive hiring commitment between Endeavor and Delta. Some of the highlights of the DGI program for Endeavor pilots who are interested in participating include:
∑Endeavor pilots must meet all position and hiring requirements of Delta Air Lines which can be found at https://www.deltajobs.net/pilots.htm.
oParticipants will be required to participate in Deltaís full selection process which includes testing, interview and psychological evaluation.
∑We reduced the Captain flying time requirement - an Endeavor Pilot must now have only 18 months as a Captain at Endeavor versus the previous requirement of 24 months.
∑We doubled the number of names to be sent to Delta each month for interviews, increasing from 12 to 24.
∑Former SSP eligible Endeavor pilots who either did not participate in SSP, or who were unsuccessful with the SSP interview process, will receive one opportunity to participate in the DGI Program.
oSpecific rules surrounding former SSP pilots are outlined in the DGI Program document.
∑The DGI Program includes an annual hiring commitment from Delta requiring it to offer a number of positions to Endeavor pilots holding DGI CJOs equal to 33% of Deltaís annual pilot hires, or 180 pilots per year, whichever is less.
The DGI program will provide Endeavor pilots with an opportunity to work at the most respected global airline in the industry. Your individual performance and support of the mainline customer are what makes these types of programs possible.
Thank you for all you do to support the airline, your colleagues, and the customers you fly each day.
Casualinterest is online now Report Post

Not to quibble, but it says 33% or 180 per year, whichever is LESS. That means if they hire more than 540 per, the most they promise to take from Endeavor is 180 per year (about 15 per month). If they also stiff arm OTS hires from Endeavor, they have a nice controlled ďflowĒ.

Mak2018
05-25-2018, 11:13 AM
So much for carrier progression still requred to do all test and requrements apply as if you would come from a street, no diffrence at all,
Thanks delta for nothing
I dont think this is true proggression

CBreezy
05-25-2018, 11:17 AM
So much for carrier progression still requred to do all test and requrements apply as if you would come from a street, no diffrence at all,
Thanks delta for nothing
I dont think this is true proggression

How many LCA at other airlines that meet all the requirements still can't even get called for an interview? Hint: a lot.