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rxsanche
03-20-2018, 06:33 PM
Friends;

Just came to learn via Republic's own "welcome letter" the most deceiving practice I have yet to see at any of these Regionals.
First, Republic clearly advertises on their website they will pay for your ATP-CTP course( along with the uniforms, IPad etc) However, they make no mention whatsoever until you are hired when they send you a welcome letter that clearly states YOU will be taxed on a 1099 form for the full cost of the ATP-CTP course not to exceed $4,500 PLUS hotel costs and other expenses they may incur!!
In addition, should you not be able to make their chosen date for initial training, otherwise you are expected to reimburse Republic their entire costs for the ATP-CTP course again plus their hotel and airfare
Way to go Republic! Republic must really think Pilots are morons..
Wait until Republic get's sued for deceiving practices.


TJBrass
03-21-2018, 04:25 AM
I hear they tax your paycheck as well.

Mooneyguy
03-21-2018, 05:49 AM
It's compensation. I'd imagine it's only a 1099 because you're not really an employee yet. I don't see how that's deception.
Win a car from a game show, you pay taxes on it. The government IS going to get "theirs"


4V14T0R
03-21-2018, 05:59 AM
Yeah, youíre not an employee yet. Wait until the job market becomes a buyers market again. Youíll have to float the cash to pay for that yourself, but donít worry, you wonít see that 1099 for not having to pay for it.


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Smooth at FL450
03-21-2018, 06:00 AM
Friends;

Just came to learn via Republic's own "welcome letter" the most deceiving practice I have yet to see at any of these Regionals.
First, Republic clearly advertises on their website they will pay for your ATP-CTP course( along with the uniforms, IPad etc) However, they make no mention whatsoever until you are hired when they send you a welcome letter that clearly states YOU will be taxed on a 1099 form for the full cost of the ATP-CTP course not to exceed $4,500 PLUS hotel costs and other expenses they may incur!!
In addition, should you not be able to make their chosen date for initial training, otherwise you are expected to reimburse Republic their entire costs for the ATP-CTP course again plus their hotel and airfare
Way to go Republic! Republic must really think Pilots are morons..
Wait until Republic get's sued for deceiving practices.

So you think $4500 in training/expenses should be absolutely free and unconditional? Man...life can be so unfair!

Flightcap
03-21-2018, 06:25 AM
Yeah, you are gonna be taxed for it. As others have said the cost that Republic covers is compensation that doesn't fall under regular employment. Therefore, you will be issued a 1099 as you would for any kind of miscellaneous compensation of a large amount that you received from anywhere.

Apparently you haven't done many self-employment related tax returns in the past or this would not be a surprise to you. Nonetheless, since you are surprised you should also be aware that this is standard tax withholding procedure considering you are not yet an employee while taking the ATP-CTP.

A fix that could prevent that from happening is to make the new hires actual employees on their ATP-CTP start date. One possible reason this has not happened is that it would screw over the guys who already have their ATP (i.e., current 121 pilots) who would be junior to the ATP-CTP students in their indoc class.

rxsanche
03-21-2018, 06:44 AM
The point many of you are missing is that you should never pay for or be taxed on training, this is training required for your job so it should be not be an expense for you in any way.
In addition, most all answers seen to overlook the point I am trying to make which is deceive potential pilots by false advertisement on what they pay you as a benefit.

Why are the points mentioned above so hard for some of you to understand and sympathize with? We are professionals and as such we shouldn't let some in the industry take advantage of us by making false promises they modify to their advantage.

This is simply not professional from any corporation regardless of the industry they are conducting business at.

Go ask any other professionals in any other field and perhaps you can appreciate the basis on what I am making these statements on before you jump in and defend their deceiving practices

Smooth at FL450
03-21-2018, 06:55 AM
The difference being this is training required just to meet basic requirements for employment, which you aren't otherwise qualified for. Aircraft/company specific training is another story.

Av8r75
03-21-2018, 07:01 AM
What you seem to be missing is that the ATP-CTP is required by the FAA (not Republic) in order to take the ATP written and get your rating.

I think your point is somewhat valid, but it is not the airline that should be the target of your frustration. ATP-CTP is an FAA requirement. Republic needs qualified applicants and they actually do absorb the cost of you getting your actual ATP rating if you think about it. However, they need the ATP-CTP needs to be completed prior to your hire date.

The airlines used to require the ATP written be completed before being considered for an interview....well ATP-CTP is required before you can take the written these days. You would have to pay out of pocket 4-5k, not including lodging and meals yourself if the airline did not offer this program.

They need qualified applicants and none of us want to drop another 4-5k on the ATP-CTP...WIN WIN brother!

And as Flightcap said, due to seniority issues, the company doesn't bring you on as an employee until after CTP is completed.

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knewyork
03-21-2018, 07:16 AM
This scenario isnít exclusive to Republic, as someone else pointed out on another thread.

Av8r75
03-21-2018, 07:27 AM
Very true...many of the regionals are doing this. Nothing deceptive about it.

bnkangle
03-21-2018, 08:55 AM
The simple fact of the matter is republic et al does this to recoupe some of their tax liability. If it was such a burdensome expense to them, why don’t they develop their own in house ATP-CTP? They certainly have the means to.

Someone please quote me the FAR that says an applicant must have completed an ATP-CTP course to be hired at a 121 carrier.

For that matter, show me the FAR that prohibits a 121 carrier from hiring a student pilot and training he or she from pre-solo to ATP,(insert type rating).


At my company, I was hired, did indoc, then ATP-CTP. I accrued seniority and got min guarantee while in ATP-CTP. I only paid tax on my regular pay.

Av8r75
03-21-2018, 09:21 AM
Oh boy...unbelievable the world we live in today!!

Everybody wants something for nothing, or they want what someone else has (insert foreign country ab initio program here)!

The FARs state that no one may act as a PIC or SIC in a part 121 operation without an ATP...period. There is your FAR, no need to quote the actual FAR...look it up yourself. This has been beat to death throughout APC.

Since the FAA passed this new regulation, 121 carriers had to increase there hiring mins to ATP. The FAA also requires the ATP-CTP course in order to even take the written test. That being the case, the airlines technically can't hire you until you meet the requirements to obtain your ATP. ATP-CTP is one of those requirements, much like having the required experience is also a requirement.

It would be different if the airline sent you a 1099 for your type training, since that training is required by the airline on their equipment in order to operate. Ab inito programs are great, but whether they are implemented or not depends on supply and demand.

Could the airlines do all of this in house, possibly and who knows, maybe US airlines will in the future, but that is not the case right now. Due to union contracts and other issues, it is also very difficult to implement an in house ATP-CTP program that would be fair for everyone.

I myself need to do the ATP-CTP and am thankful that Republic along with many of the other regionals, will cover the costs, including lodging and travel I might add.

When did this profession become inundated with so many whiners instead of winners. I know pilots can complain like the best of em, but lets at least find something worth complaining about!

Bottom line, if you want everything handed to you on a silver platter, you are in the wrong profession, matter of fact you are on the wrong planet...work hard, have fun and don't worry about things you can do nothing about. I love aviation, even with all of its issues, which every industry has by the way and the airlines have come a long way since I flew for a regional 10 years ago.

TheWeatherman
03-21-2018, 09:26 AM
Friends;

In addition, should you not be able to make their chosen date for initial training, otherwise you are expected to reimburse Republic their entire costs for the ATP-CTP course again plus their hotel and airfare


Not true, I knew somebody who had their request of a class date moved back a couple weeks so he could attend a wedding. This was after he completed his CPT course.

You only have to pay back the full price of CPT if you fail training before the end of IOE and get terminated. Or if you choose to leave for somewhere else by a certain time period. These are standard across the industry.

Anybody out there have been able to successfully write this off as an educational cost?

Not sure why you created two threads about this.

Bonanzer
03-21-2018, 09:44 AM
Man free stuff before you even hit the seniority list. How aweful.

Av8r75
03-21-2018, 10:00 AM
Man free stuff before you even hit the seniority list. How aweful.

Yeah man!! Horrendous treatment! It was so much better 10 years ago when an FO was making poverty wages and collecting food stamps. LOL

Times are much better these days, not perfect but much better!

bnkangle
03-21-2018, 01:08 PM
The FARs state that no one may act as a PIC or SIC in a part 121 operation without an ATP...period. There is your FAR, no need to quote the actual FAR...look it up yourself.

Ya don’t say. You also have to have a type rating to fly a jet or a/c over 12500 lbs. Bet ya didn’t know that, did ya?

Since the FAA passed this new regulation, 121 carriers had to increase there hiring mins to ATP. the airlines technically can't hire you until you meet the requirements to obtain your ATP.

You’re dead wrong. An airline can hire anyone they want. It’s their prerogative how much training they provide or don’t provide to an applicant to get them qualified to work in a 121 flight deck. Hence ab-initio you mentioned. I was an employee on the payroll when I did my ATP-CTP.

It would be different if the airline sent you a 1099 for your type training, since that training is required by the airline on their equipment in order to operate.

An ATP-CTP course is also required. What’s the difference?

Could the airlines do all of this in house, possibly and who knows, maybe US airlines will in the future, but that is not the case right now. Due to union contracts and other issues, it is also very difficult to implement an in house ATP-CTP program that would be fair for everyone.

Please elaborate on said contracts and “other issues.”


I’m not debating nor do I much care about the merits of taxing an employee for a CTP class, but your misinformed idea that an airline can’t consider someone en employee untill they take the ATP written is flat out wrong.

Av8r75
03-21-2018, 02:15 PM
Iím not debating nor do I much care about the merits of taxing an employee for a CTP class, but your misinformed idea that an airline canít consider someone en employee untill they take the ATP written is flat out wrong.

I said I was done with this petty crap, but if you want to throw around insults, let me set the record straight and maybe clarify here real quick...

Type Ratings are different...while the FAR's do require type training above 12,500 (Been in aviation for a long time, but thanks for the TIP!!), this type of training is operator specific and a cost of doing business. You can't get a commercial pilot position without a commercial license and don't expect any US airline or 135 operator to pay for your commercial anytime soon. The ATP is also now an FAA requirement and yes airlines are providing plenty of assistance to pilots in order to get the pipeline filled up qualified folks. The difference is that the ATP is an experience requirement, not just equipment knowledge which is based on a specific operators needs.

I never said that airlines can't hire you, but they can't put you on the line until you meet those requirements. I think you knew what I meant!! By the way, it is not their prerogative how much or how little training they give..it is regulated by the FAA. All airline training programs are evaluated and regulated by the FAA.

What is their prerogative is what they will pay for and what they will not. Thats the real discussion here...you think its crap that they don't just pay for everything taxes included, so you can go work for them. Give me a break! You ever own or run a business? Well I have and it costs a lot of money to hire, train and develop employees. I have also worked for a regional airline 10 years ago when the pay was crap, you had no QOL, no flow, horrible work rules and maybe upgrade in 7-10 years.

So to be honest with you, I could care less about paying a little tax on training that I didn't have to pay for in full, not to mention cost of lodging, etc..

People always want more the more you give away. It never ceases to amaze me. Here is another tip to you and everyone else who thinks this is a legitimate gripe...if you think you can do it better, pony up the money and some investors, start your own airline and show everyone how its done! If not, then stop griping, enjoy your career as a pilot...enjoy the journey or do something else.

RANT OVER -

bnkangle
03-21-2018, 03:31 PM
I said I was done with this petty crap

Then why did you reply again?

I never said that airlines can't hire you.

Yes you absolutely did. You led everyone to believe the FAA requires someone to have taken the FAA written or be eligible to take it prior being considered an employee. That was my primary argument
What is their prerogative is what they will pay for and what they will not.

Yes. It seems you agree with me now.


you think its crap that they don't just pay for everything taxes included,

You're assuming. I was simply explaining Republic's rationale for reporting the CTP as income.


Well I have and it costs a lot of money to hire, train and develop employees.

I worked in management for 5 years. No need to lecture me about overhead. By the way, these 5 figure new hire bonuses that every regional is paying now, why don't they just deduct the cost of the ATP-CTP from that?


Here is another tip to you

I'll thank you not to give me anymore unsolicited advice.




..filler..

Av8r75
03-21-2018, 05:26 PM
Wowsers....let it go bro...

Sorry if I let this get out of hand...it just really bothers me when people make it sound like every airline is just out to get you, pull the wool over your eyes, etc...

There are more important things to concern ourselves with than this particular topic. Your idea about the bonus is a good idea by the way and someone already suggested to pay the taxes with a small amount of the bonus.

Call me an optimist, but things are much better these days than when I flew for the airlines, much better. This is not to say there is not room for improvement, there always is of course, but there are some things that people just pick at that seem very petty to me.

Been around this industry for over 25 years and the grass will always be greener somewhere else....in my experience, I have found it less stressful to not sweat the small stuff....just saying (Not giving you advice, just relaying my experience).

Take care.

Flightcap
03-22-2018, 12:59 AM
As others have tried to point out until they're blue in the face, you're getting something for nothing. What would you have said in the days when people paid for their type rating out of pocket just to get a job?

No sugar / no salt:

There is a certain amount of cynicism that is healthy in this industry. It will keep you legal and out of the weeds. There is also a certain amount that is unhealthy. It will keep you up at night irritated at your employer for the things they do that you don't like. It will ruin your QOL and make you bitter. It will make you that angry Captain or whiny FO that no one wants to fly with. Choosing the right balance of cynicism makes the difference between your being a great professional pilot who's fun to work with and being high on your coworkers' avoid lists.

You're just starting out, so you have the choice of which kind of pilot you want to be. I sincerely hope you make the right choice. It will impact your future.

Geardownflaps30
03-22-2018, 01:14 AM
The point many of you are missing is that you should never pay for or be taxed on training, this is training required for your job so it should be not be an expense for you in any way.
In addition, most all answers seen to overlook the point I am trying to make which is deceive potential pilots by false advertisement on what they pay you as a benefit.

Why are the points mentioned above so hard for some of you to understand and sympathize with? We are professionals and as such we shouldn't let some in the industry take advantage of us by making false promises they modify to their advantage.

This is simply not professional from any corporation regardless of the industry they are conducting business at.

Go ask any other professionals in any other field and perhaps you can appreciate the basis on what I am making these statements on before you jump in and defend their deceiving practices

The point you are missing is simply that you are wrong.

(Sarcasm alert...insert your favorite sarcasm emoji here)

However, Iím certain your parents are very proud of you.

SpeedyVagabond
03-22-2018, 04:32 AM
First time looking for a real job, Rxsanche? Do hospitals pay doctors for their degrees? Do law firms pay lawyers for law school? Why should you get free entry level qualifications from an airline? And yet you are and youíre griping about paying taxes on the value of that free training to a bunch of people who came to the airlines with far far more experience when in your shoes and who started out making far far less. You might try being grateful that youíre starting out at the best time ever in commercial aviation.

Av8r75
03-22-2018, 05:49 AM
Amen Flightcap, Speedy and Geardown....couldn't have said it better myself!

Some probably still don't get it...Lol!

Fly safe fellas.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

sflpilot
03-22-2018, 09:00 AM
Not true, I knew somebody who had their request of a class date moved back a couple weeks so he could attend a wedding. This was after he completed his CPT course.

You only have to pay back the full price of CPT if you fail training before the end of IOE and get terminated. Or if you choose to leave for somewhere else by a certain time period. These are standard across the industry.

Anybody out there have been able to successfully write this off as an educational cost?

Not sure why you created two threads about this.

This industry is so backwards. This whole returning income that youíve been taxed on if you leave for whatever reason before a certain time is insane. If an athlete gets a signing bonus they donít give it back if they leave the team for whatever reason. But pilots are stupid and agree to all of this.

TheWeatherman
03-22-2018, 09:44 AM
This industry is so backwards. This whole returning income that youíve been taxed on if you leave for whatever reason before a certain time is insane. If an athlete gets a signing bonus they donít give it back if they leave the team for whatever reason. But pilots are stupid and agree to all of this.
So if a team gives a player a $20 million singing bonus, but in the first year the player decides he doesn't like the team and leaves for the other one breaking his contract he gets to keep his bonus? That's news to me.

Arliss
03-22-2018, 02:00 PM
At ExpressJet the CTP is conducted in-house and is considered part of your new hire training and you're considered an employee while attending it. I think they even gave me training pay while I was in it. After the course you're considered "terminated" and then "re-hired" on the first day of actual training. So under my profile there's an original hire date and an adjusted hire date.

pilotnicco
03-22-2018, 02:36 PM
Jesus, the amount of entitlement with this OP is insane...

DarkSideMoon
03-23-2018, 08:36 AM
At ExpressJet the CTP is conducted in-house and is considered part of your new hire training and you're considered an employee while attending it. I think they even gave me training pay while I was in it. After the course you're considered "terminated" and then "re-hired" on the first day of actual training. So under my profile there's an original hire date and an adjusted hire date.

ZW is the same way.

Fr8Thrust
03-26-2018, 12:02 AM
Whatís next, complaining about a 1099 when they start paying for your commercial?

An ATP written is required by your company, and they paid a contractor to enroll you in a course to get you to the minimum qualifications.

Cefiro
03-27-2018, 05:44 AM
At Delta you still have to cover your own hotel costs, heck it wasn't that long ago you had to pay for your own training at some regionals.



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