Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : FireBreaks?


PT6flyer
03-20-2018, 06:43 PM
Read the memo, apparently Delta thinks we need Firebreaks in NYC, and EDV can't wait to screw every pilot's schedule up to do it. The firebreaks help during IROPS because it gives flights some cushion from dominoeing. This helps mainline keep some schedule integrity and makes Delta more money, I understand all that.

Why do we, at Endeavor, need firebreaks when we're going to cancel off the whole schedule during the first phase of the IROP?

Every IROP goes like this:
1. Talk to captain about the IROP and ask where the best bar is for the overnight.
2. Go to outstation on first turn and pretend we're going to JFK/LGA so passengers don't freak out.
3. Flight cancels (so does every other EDV)
4. Wait 2-4 hours on phone for scheduling to give us hotel
5. Fill out grievance about long sit on phone, company stopped pretending they care and tell the union to tell us thanks for all you do.
6. Go to hotel, can't drink because we're supposedly flying tomorrow.
7. Wake up in morning, whole day is cancelled off, drink for breakfast, lunch, supposedly we're getting everything back on track tomorrow so no more drinking after 545pm.
8. Goto bed, flights are on time. Bet with captain we'll be at bar by 730am.
9. 5:00am check schedule, whole day cancelled off. go back to sleep.
10. Beat captain to bar by 20 minutes.

Since everything is going to get cancelled, why are we building fire breaks that'll never get used?


SomeAv8tor
03-20-2018, 08:06 PM
Read the memo, apparently Delta thinks we need Firebreaks in NYC, and EDV can't wait to screw every pilot's schedule up to do it. The firebreaks help during IROPS because it gives flights some cushion from dominoeing. This helps mainline keep some schedule integrity and makes Delta more money, I understand all that.

Why do we, at Endeavor, need firebreaks when we're going to cancel off the whole schedule during the first phase of the IROP?

Every IROP goes like this:
1. Talk to captain about the IROP and ask where the best bar is for the overnight.
2. Go to outstation on first turn and pretend we're going to JFK/LGA so passengers don't freak out.
3. Flight cancels (so does every other EDV)
4. Wait 2-4 hours on phone for scheduling to give us hotel
5. Fill out grievance about long sit on phone, company stopped pretending they care and tell the union to tell us thanks for all you do.
6. Go to hotel, can't drink because we're supposedly flying tomorrow.
7. Wake up in morning, whole day is cancelled off, drink for breakfast, lunch, supposedly we're getting everything back on track tomorrow so no more drinking after 545pm.
8. Goto bed, flights are on time. Bet with captain we'll be at bar by 730am.
9. 5:00am check schedule, whole day cancelled off. go back to sleep.
10. Beat captain to bar by 20 minutes.

Since everything is going to get cancelled, why are we building fire breaks that'll never get used?

I think what they’re really trying to do is to curb your drinking. ;)

HighFlight
03-20-2018, 08:30 PM
Sounds like someone has a drinking problem. Should just log SIC without a headset to build time...


Fr8Thrust
03-21-2018, 12:54 AM
What is a “Fire Break”?

Casualinterest
03-21-2018, 01:04 AM
Sounds like someone has a drinking problem. Should just log SIC without a headset to build time...Haha had the same thought. Maybe hit the gym work that anger out....

And the fire breaks aren't for irops. They're for your 4 leg no break days when your first flight is delayed by 30 minutes so the entire day isn't delayed all the way through. The idea makes sense, been suggesting it (in my head) for a while. Just sucks that it impacts days off.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

theUpsideDown
03-21-2018, 04:23 AM
Haha had the same thought. Maybe hit the gym work that anger out....

And the fire breaks aren't for irops. They're for your 4 leg no break days when your first flight is delayed by 30 minutes so the entire day isn't delayed all the way through. The idea makes sense, been suggesting it (in my head) for a while. Just sucks that it impacts days off.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Alright fine I'll tone it down. You're also right, irops are a certain term that has meaning and I'm using it wrong.

The starting a 4 legger has never caused me a whole day of delays when the weather is good. When the weather is so so, but not to irop levels, I certainly do experience a rolling delay, but it's fixed by the last leg worst case.

"The fire break process will improve a crew member’s scheduled integrity by reducing reroutes and down line delays; " is the company selling point on the pilot group losing two days off. It appears ATL doesnt have this problem right? Maybe NYC just becomes even more junior than it is now.

flydiamond
03-21-2018, 04:38 AM
Haha had the same thought. Maybe hit the gym work that anger out....

And the fire breaks aren't for irops. They're for your 4 leg no break days when your first flight is delayed by 30 minutes so the entire day isn't delayed all the way through. The idea makes sense, been suggesting it (in my head) for a while. Just sucks that it impacts days off.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

In theory, they make sense, they probably thought the sits would be 2:00 tops, after all its only supposed to add 50-60 minutes to a normal 35-45 minute connection time. Didn’t mind it when I first read about them about a month ago. Now that the pairings and schedules are out, I couldn’t believe how many 3-4:29 sits are out there. I don’t think LGA or JFK have arrival and departure banks (in the way ATL does to facilitate connections), but it’s almost as if that 50-60 mins extra pushes you into the next bank and that’s why it’s so much longer.

What would have had just as good an effect on performance would have been some way of minimizing plane swaps as we transit hubs. These firebreaks will do nothing to prevent a delay from a late inbound aircraft.

flydiamond
03-21-2018, 04:45 AM
Maybe NYC just becomes even more junior than it is now.

NYC is no longer the junior base it once was! DTW 900 FO, ATL 200 CA, and ATL 200 FO are all more junior than their NYC counterparts as far as seniority of junior lineholder :eek:

theUpsideDown
03-21-2018, 07:24 AM
NYC is no longer the junior base it once was! DTW 900 FO, ATL 200 CA, and ATL 200 FO are all more junior than their NYC counterparts as far as seniority of junior lineholder :eek:

Fine. Maybe nyc becomes the most junior base again and by a big margin.

Avroman
03-21-2018, 06:59 PM
Fine. Maybe nyc becomes the most junior base again and by a big margin.

DTW 900 schedules took a big crap with these fire breaks too, not just New York :mad:

Boats and Hos
03-24-2018, 10:43 AM
It's bad in New York. This double base coverage is Horse Manure! Crew scheduling is playing all sorts of games and messing crews about. I'm getting the hell out of NYC as fast as possible. Bad idea signing off on the co-base.

MIkeFavinger
03-24-2018, 11:49 AM
It's bad in New York. This double base coverage is Horse Manure! Crew scheduling is playing all sorts of games and messing crews about. I'm getting the hell out of NYC as fast as possible. Bad idea signing off on the co-base.

What are you seeing them do game-wise with co-domicile? Is it just reserves? Because I haven’t seen anything too nutty with a line so far.

Boats and Hos
03-24-2018, 12:19 PM
Run you around to both airports, one day one place, one day another. How about NYC airport reserve? Yep, on my schedule. Do I get to choose? Min rest after CDOs to cover more P3 and, airport reserve, at either place, with a duty also already assigned. Constantly sending you messages. I do not think anybody thought the consequences of this out. NYC should get an additional stipend in the very least. Personally, I think the company, or at least crew scheduling, is abusing this.

It appears the union has at least stopped this fire break madness.

The new contract was a give away and we will be paying for it dearly.

flydiamond
03-24-2018, 01:17 PM
Run you around to both airports, one day one place, one day another. How about NYC airport reserve? Yep, on my schedule. Do I get to choose? Min rest after CDOs to cover more P3 and, airport reserve, at either place, with a duty also already assigned. Constantly sending you messages. I do not think anybody thought the consequences of this out. NYC should get an additional stipend in the very least. Personally, I think the company, or at least crew scheduling, is abusing this.

It appears the union has at least stopped this fire break madness.

The new contract was a give away and we will be paying for it dearly.

Except for ground transportation It really isn’t anywhere near the doom and gloom you’re saying it is. Relax, you’ll be off reserve soon. I think I recognize who you are by your constant complaining and poor attitude on our pilot facebook page and you seem to be in the small minority there. Don’t make mountains out of mole hills. Relax, enjoy the job. You’re at one of the best regionals out there.

Company does need to do something regarding ground transportation though. They say they’re working on it. The union should have required more from the company in this regard and required it prior to the codomicile going live. Where’s the corporate Lyft account. Should have been tied into the TA and contractual.

Casualinterest
03-24-2018, 01:28 PM
Except for ground transportation It really isn’t anywhere near the doom and gloom you’re saying it is. Relax, you’ll be off reserve soon. I think I recognize who you are by your constant complaining and poor attitude on our pilot facebook page and you seem to be in the small minority there. Don’t make mountains out of mole hills. Relax, enjoy the job. You’re at one of the best regionals out there.

Company does need to do something regarding ground transportation though. They say they’re working on it. The union should have required more from the company in this regard and required it prior to the codomicile going live. Where’s the corporate Lyft account. Should have been tied into the TA and contractual.

Yeah I think the big issue is that our reserve section of the contract needs big improvements. The co-dom is a non issue for line holders. And if all reserves were LCR with minimal scr escalation (ie Delta) and no ready reserves, it would be a non issue for everyone. I'm confident this is the direction it will go in.

This will be the story you tell your young gun FO's one day about how you mucked through reserve. Remember there were guys on it for YEARS.

Keep on your Union reps with helpful and realistic improvements you'd like negotiated for, I think our guys are moving this place in the right direction, and I think management has at least some interest in meeting us half way. But nothing happens over night. And you can bet they don't read these forms...

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Dorp
03-24-2018, 02:13 PM
Not to belittle those who suffer the shortcomings of codomicile, but I think “86%” is going to become our “Thanks, Obama...”

SomeAv8tor
03-24-2018, 05:40 PM
Hold up, you mean you voted in codomicle and now you have to report to one airport one day and another the next? What exactly did you expect?

HighFlight
03-24-2018, 06:01 PM
I hear Envoy has a flow. Dude, get out while the getting is good!! EDV sux monkey ballz...

Run you around to both airports, one day one place, one day another. How about NYC airport reserve? Yep, on my schedule. Do I get to choose? Min rest after CDOs to cover more P3 and, airport reserve, at either place, with a duty also already assigned. Constantly sending you messages. I do not think anybody thought the consequences of this out. NYC should get an additional stipend in the very least. Personally, I think the company, or at least crew scheduling, is abusing this.

It appears the union has at least stopped this fire break madness.

The new contract was a give away and we will be paying for it dearly.

Hot Richard
03-24-2018, 06:45 PM
I hear Envoy has a flow. Dude, get out while the getting is good!! EDV sux monkey ballz...

Envoy which also has co domicile. It's not the end of the world, and ATL/DTW are getting junior enough for people to bid for... New York isn't a death sentence.

HighFlight
03-24-2018, 08:02 PM
We’re talking about a guy who has been here less than 6 months. If he were to talk like this in the cockpit, I would hope some of the senior CAs in this company would slap him silly and set his whining in order. You know, the guys who sat reserve for years, upgraded/downgraded/upgraded/downgraded, got paid a pittance to work twice or three times as much as he does today.

Rode the van to the hotel tonight with a CA who has been here for 19 years and is on RSV. Now HE has earned the right to complain about things.

Envoy which also has co domicile. It's not the end of the world, and ATL/DTW are getting junior enough for people to bid for... New York isn't a death sentence.

Kforekyle
03-25-2018, 05:05 AM
Run you around to both airports, one day one place, one day another. How about NYC airport reserve? Yep, on my schedule. Do I get to choose? Min rest after CDOs to cover more P3 and, airport reserve, at either place, with a duty also already assigned. Constantly sending you messages. I do not think anybody thought the consequences of this out. NYC should get an additional stipend in the very least. Personally, I think the company, or at least crew scheduling, is abusing this.

It appears the union has at least stopped this fire break madness.

The new contract was a give away and we will be paying for it dearly. All you guys voted for it. Tried to warn you.

Hot Richard
03-25-2018, 06:51 AM
We’re talking about a guy who has been here less than 6 months. If he were to talk like this in the cockpit, I would hope some of the senior CAs in this company would slap him silly and set his whining in order. You know, the guys who sat reserve for years, upgraded/downgraded/upgraded/downgraded, got paid a pittance to work twice or three times as much as he does today.

Rode the van to the hotel tonight with a CA who has been here for 19 years and is on RSV. Now HE has earned the right to complain about things.

I agree with you. What I'm getting at is that is isn't all roses elsewhere. NYC co domicile is at nearly every other carrier with a NYC base, save YX.

For people blaming firebreaks on the TA, I have no response.

Boats and Hos
03-25-2018, 07:16 AM
Is that I believe they are abusing the intent and language in the scheduling section. No, I didn't get to vote for it. I've been doing this long enough to know. I get being on Reserve, hell, some bid it on purpose but to get abused is just wrong no matter what. I don't think I'm in the minority at all. I flew with a Captain that has six grievances already over scheduling issues. Must just be two of us then. I do my job, like many others, on a daily basis and don't complain on the job. There are many who have done this before at other places and bring a wealth of experience but did not sign up to get abused by crew scheduling particularly Reserve. I did not say I didn't like it here, I just don't think scheduling is working with us and things need to be fixed is all. Btw, I am not on BookFace.

prex8390
03-25-2018, 07:54 AM
Is that I believe they are abusing the intent and language in the scheduling section. No, I didn't get to vote for it. I've been doing this long enough to know. I get being on Reserve, hell, some bid it on purpose but to get abused is just wrong no matter what. I don't think I'm in the minority at all. I flew with a Captain that has six grievances already over scheduling issues. Must just be two of us then. I do my job, like many others, on a daily basis and don't complain on the job. There are many who have done this before at other places and bring a wealth of experience but did not sign up to get abused by crew scheduling particularly Reserve. I did not say I didn't like it here, I just don't think scheduling is working with us and things need to be fixed is all. Btw, I am not on BookFace.

Go to envoy. I heard they don’t abuse people over there a flight attendant told me. She said you’ll flow to mainline in 18-24 months.

Get over this. Welcome to the airlines, sounds like maybe this career isn’t for you if you don’t like sitting reserve this bad. But for real go over to envy threads and ask them About their reserve QOL. Seriously do it.

Boats and Hos
03-25-2018, 08:17 AM
Envoy is now hiring DEC's, JUST LIKE GO JETS.

From another thread of ours.

"I’ve sat ready reserve 7 times this month. It’s all I’ve done for the last 2 weeks. This is starting to get out of hand. I would like to see the max limit in the next LOA go from 10 to like 2. Even mainline flight attendants are maxed out at 2, or at least at AA

They’d rather break apart trips and give them to people bidding last call then just assign it to a reserve that wants to fly and give them ready instead".

Again, must just be me. READ!!! I'm not against reserve, I'm against getting abused, just like my colleague above, on reserve.

Casualinterest
03-25-2018, 10:14 AM
Go to envoy. I heard they don’t abuse people over there a flight attendant told me. She said you’ll flow to mainline in 18-24 months.

Get over this. Welcome to the airlines, sounds like maybe this career isn’t for you if you don’t like sitting reserve this bad. But for real go over to envy threads and ask them About their reserve QOL. Seriously do it.Right. Or how about psa is forcing Captain upgrades because reserve life there sucks so bad no one wants to upgrade. Reserve sucks. Some places it's better. We're not one of them

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Unpilot
03-25-2018, 10:28 AM
Let me sum it up for you.

Seniority is flipping awesome when you have it.
And monkey balls with blisters and puss when you don't

HighFlight
03-25-2018, 04:32 PM
*Pus

If only it were your spelling, we’d all be bidding for it. :p

Let me sum it up for you.

Seniority is flipping awesome when you have it.
And monkey balls with blisters and puss when you don't

Unpilot
03-26-2018, 02:30 PM
*Pus

If only it were your spelling, we’d all be bidding for it. :p

Dat's true...beer got in the way...or a Freudian slip.:D