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View Full Version : Questions from a potential DEC


fhteagle
03-21-2018, 04:15 PM
So I was at Eagle 2004-2008, got out for a much better job just before the first contractions were announced in 2008. However, I am considering returning due to the HVA program I guess it is called. Please hold all flame type replies, I have done my time as part of the lost generation and am just trying to get the TPIC to get out of these doldrums. However, I want to make sure I understand all the facts. I have done 121 street captain once already, at a place that was in its death throes, and do not want to walk blindly into the wrong situation again. So, here are a few questions that I have already asked of the recruiters, but I wanted to poll the brain trust here as well. Any factual, contract citation, or well thought out replies will be greatly appreciated....

1. Will there be any protection for a HVA hire from displacement back to FO if the fleet shrinks again?
2. If hired as FO and immediately displaced to NCE, will there be any associated seat or base lock? (I can handle a commute to ORD but LGA long term is no bueno)
3. Is there any length of service requirement attached to the $45k bonus?
4. Is there any longevity credit offered for former time at Eagle / Envoy?
5. How well have NCE's and OCE's been able to trip trade via the app to get something like 4 on - 1 off - 4 on - 6 off or so?
6. Have any TDYs been offered to LGA for OCE's? If so, what is the deviation from deadhead policy these days?
7. Is there a compressed "Experienced new hire" footprint, or do I have to go through full EMB systems and sims despite being already 121 type rated and current?
8. What is the current training schedule for indoc, systems, sim, IOE segments, etc for HVAs? Is any of the footprint done as homestudy CBT?
9. When do HVAs start getting paid as CA? (first day of indoc, systems, IOE, after Fed Ride?)
10. HVAs are being flown 100% as PIC, or sometimes as SIC also?
11. HVAs able to bid to OCE in the +/- 3 months timeframe accurate?

Thanks in advance to all...


Virga show
03-21-2018, 04:56 PM
So I was at Eagle 2004-2008, got out for a much better job just before the first contractions were announced in 2008. However, I am considering returning due to the HVA program I guess it is called. Please hold all flame type replies, I have done my time as part of the lost generation and am just trying to get the TPIC to get out of these doldrums. However, I want to make sure I understand all the facts. I have done 121 street captain once already, at a place that was in its death throes, and do not want to walk blindly into the wrong situation again. So, here are a few questions that I have already asked of the recruiters, but I wanted to poll the brain trust here as well. Any factual, contract citation, or well thought out replies will be greatly appreciated....

1. Will there be any protection for a HVA hire from displacement back to FO if the fleet shrinks again?
2. If hired as FO and immediately displaced to NCE, will there be any associated seat or base lock? (I can handle a commute to ORD but LGA long term is no bueno)
3. Is there any length of service requirement attached to the $45k bonus?
4. Is there any longevity credit offered for former time at Eagle / Envoy?
5. How well have NCE's and OCE's been able to trip trade via the app to get something like 4 on - 1 off - 4 on - 6 off or so?
6. Have any TDYs been offered to LGA for OCE's? If so, what is the deviation from deadhead policy these days?
7. Is there a compressed "Experienced new hire" footprint, or do I have to go through full EMB systems and sims despite being already 121 type rated and current?
8. What is the current training schedule for indoc, systems, sim, IOE segments, etc for HVAs? Is any of the footprint done as homestudy CBT?
9. When do HVAs start getting paid as CA? (first day of indoc, systems, IOE, after Fed Ride?)
10. HVAs are being flown 100% as PIC, or sometimes as SIC also?
11. HVAs able to bid to OCE in the +/- 3 months timeframe accurate?

Thanks in advance to all...

You will be disappointed if you come here as a DEC and as soon as you walk through the door for Indoc you become a LVA. And you donít get paid captain pay until after
FED ride. you will be prob flying from the right seat most of the time as a Captain if they are short on FOís. You will get displaced back to FO, no protection. You will go through entire training program from beginning to end. No special treatment for a prior eagle guy. Sorry. At least 10 years to flow to American. Best of luck in your decision.

Skip0927
03-21-2018, 06:52 PM
[QUOTE]

1. Will there be any protection for a HVA hire from displacement back to FO if the fleet shrinks again? No
2. If hired as FO and immediately displaced to NCE, will there be any associated seat or base lock? (I can handle a commute to ORD but LGA long term is no bueno) No, they are saying DFW as a capt in 12 mo. I dont buy it.
3. Is there any length of service requirement attached to the $45k bonus? 2 years
4. Is there any longevity credit offered for former time at Eagle / Envoy? None other than ďoh wow you worked here before. Sucks you left....Ē
5. How well have NCE's and OCE's been able to trip trade via the app to get something like 4 on - 1 off - 4 on - 6 off or so? Absolutely zero ability to trade drop or swap schedule. What the all mighty scheduling gods concoct is whatchayagot!
6. Have any TDYs been offered to LGA for OCE's? If so, what is the deviation from deadhead policy these days? No TDYs. All forced displacements.
7. Is there a compressed "Experienced new hire" footprint, or do I have to go through full EMB systems and sims despite being already 121 type rated and current? None, full monty.
8. What is the current training schedule for indoc, systems, sim, IOE segments, etc for HVAs? Is any of the footprint done as homestudy CBT? Long footprint. Few weeks of at home CBT. If you know EMB you can get the CBTs done in a day.
9. When do HVAs start getting paid as CA? (first day of indoc, systems, IOE, after Fed Ride?). After Fed ride
10. HVAs are being flown 100% as PIC, or sometimes as SIC also? 100% PIC of the ready reserve lounge chair.
11. HVAs able to bid to OCE in the +/- 3 months timeframe accurate? So they say, I doubt it...

[QUOTE]

I am the same boat as you. Prior Eagle for 3500 hrs. Im back as a DEC. above info is as accurate as it gets.


highfarfast
03-21-2018, 09:21 PM
So I was at Eagle 2004-2008, got out for a much better job just before the first contractions were announced in 2008. However, I am considering returning due to the HVA program I guess it is called. Please hold all flame type replies, I have done my time as part of the lost generation and am just trying to get the TPIC to get out of these doldrums. However, I want to make sure I understand all the facts. I have done 121 street captain once already, at a place that was in its death throes, and do not want to walk blindly into the wrong situation again. So, here are a few questions that I have already asked of the recruiters, but I wanted to poll the brain trust here as well. Any factual, contract citation, or well thought out replies will be greatly appreciated....

1. Will there be any protection for a HVA hire from displacement back to FO if the fleet shrinks again?
2. If hired as FO and immediately displaced to NCE, will there be any associated seat or base lock? (I can handle a commute to ORD but LGA long term is no bueno)
3. Is there any length of service requirement attached to the $45k bonus?
4. Is there any longevity credit offered for former time at Eagle / Envoy?
5. How well have NCE's and OCE's been able to trip trade via the app to get something like 4 on - 1 off - 4 on - 6 off or so?
6. Have any TDYs been offered to LGA for OCE's? If so, what is the deviation from deadhead policy these days?
7. Is there a compressed "Experienced new hire" footprint, or do I have to go through full EMB systems and sims despite being already 121 type rated and current?
8. What is the current training schedule for indoc, systems, sim, IOE segments, etc for HVAs? Is any of the footprint done as homestudy CBT?
9. When do HVAs start getting paid as CA? (first day of indoc, systems, IOE, after Fed Ride?)
10. HVAs are being flown 100% as PIC, or sometimes as SIC also?
11. HVAs able to bid to OCE in the +/- 3 months timeframe accurate?

Thanks in advance to all...

I had to reply because the other responses don't fit exactly what I've heard/know.

1) No protection.
2) No seat lock if displaced.
3) FO bonuses are 2 years... prorated after 1. I'd assume there's something similar for the HVA bonus.
4) I've actually heard this is a negative... as in you might not even be offered a job if you quit here before but I did have a new hire class mate that had worked here before so stories like that may have an air of "there's more to the story". Anyway, don't expect special treatment. My classmate didn't get any as far as I know.
5) Trip trading to shift days working and not working... for the most part, I have not had much luck until this month where I was able to do so quite successfully. Supposedly we are much fatter on FOs (I'm an FO) now than we have been and I've assumed that was why.
6) Yes, but not for several months I don't think. There are three different versions of TDY. Best discussed knowing where your commuting from I think.
7) Not that I know of.
8) I don't know what the current footprint is but there is some of it that is home study CBT.
9) You're paid like an FO until after a successful FED ride. FO bonus is paid first day of training though. Not sure how the HVA bonus is paid out.
10) As I understand it, we stopped dual seat qualification training for captains in January. And even if we didn't, we're short on captains and fat on FOs right now so you wouldn't likely spend much time in the right seat, if any, assuming things stay the same for the foreseeable future.
11) Not unless something we aren't expecting happens. There are some here that will say otherwise but I think DEC will be in LGA for a while.

fhteagle
03-22-2018, 06:00 AM
Thanks all for the facts. Looks like there are too many pitfalls vs potential upsides for me.

Good luck all...

havick206
03-22-2018, 06:40 AM
Thanks all for the facts. Looks like there are too many pitfalls vs potential upsides for me.

Good luck all...

If I were in your shoes Iíd goto spirit, Endevor, JetBlue. At least youíll get decent pay while you make your way to your end goal.

Cujo665
03-22-2018, 06:59 AM
If I were in your shoes Iíd goto spirit, Endevor, JetBlue. At least youíll get decent pay while you make your way to your end goal.

Bingo, or any of the ACMIís now offering a pay scale and quality of life that in many ways is superior than a flow to the lowest paid legacy.
1st year AA, $80 ph
1st year at many ACMI $110+ ph
Upgrade AA 7-9 years on narrow body
Upgrade at many ACMI, 2-4 years
Top heavy pay 767,777 around 280 ph AA
Top 767/777 at a few ACMI $295ph, both over 12 year period.
One requires commuting to crashpads while on reserve, the ACMI buys real tickets to/from work and you never need a crashpad.
This is just but one example, there are many.

The industry is changing quickly, as we told them it would, there are great jobs out there already, and others are improving their wages and conditions regularly to attract and retain pilots. Flow through programs are losing value everyday.

Look around carefully. With your time and experience going back to start over at a regional isnít the only option, nor is it the best option.

flysooner9
03-22-2018, 08:13 AM
ACMI your also gone for 18+ days at a time. Not real possible with a family.

mainlineAF
03-22-2018, 09:57 AM
Bingo, or any of the ACMIís now offering a pay scale and quality of life that in many ways is superior than a flow to the lowest paid legacy.

1st year AA, $80 ph

1st year at many ACMI $110+ ph

Upgrade AA 7-9 years on narrow body

Upgrade at many ACMI, 2-4 years

Top heavy pay 767,777 around 280 ph AA

Top 767/777 at a few ACMI $295ph, both over 12 year period.

One requires commuting to crashpads while on reserve, the ACMI buys real tickets to/from work and you never need a crashpad.

This is just but one example, there are many.



The industry is changing quickly, as we told them it would, there are great jobs out there already, and others are improving their wages and conditions regularly to attract and retain pilots. Flow through programs are losing value everyday.



Look around carefully. With your time and experience going back to start over at a regional isnít the only option, nor is it the best option.



12 yr 330/787/777 pay at AA is $333.

You would be nuts to choose any acmi over any one of the legacies.

Cujo665
03-22-2018, 10:03 AM
12 yr 330/787/777 pay at AA is $333.

You would be nuts to choose any acmi over any one of the legacies.

was just using what's on APC. What is the 767 at now?

I don't know, with the new pay scales they're getting; I'd seriously consider the home basing, no crashpads, air miles, hotel points and a 2 year upgrade over commuting to a crashpad on reserve and a 7-9 year upgrade.

To each their own. All have different pro's and con's. My point was this guy with lots of flight time already, doesn't need to go backwards to a regional.

pitchattitude
03-22-2018, 11:24 AM
12 yr 330/787/777 pay at AA is $333.

You would be nuts to choose any acmi over any one of the legacies.
How many 12 year captains does AA have at that pay scale? I doubt there are any. You have to be realistic when you are looking at what is attainable and how long you have left in your career.

pitchattitude
03-22-2018, 11:29 AM
ACMI your also gone for 18+ days at a time. Not real possible with a family.
If you are commuting, you probably are gone more than that anyway, just not all at once. But you commute on a positive space ticket. No ďback upĒ needed for a commuter clause. Different people and families have different dynamics. But you are right, it is not for everyone.

Ijustlikeflying
03-22-2018, 03:01 PM
How many 12 year captains does AA have at that pay scale? I doubt there are any. You have to be realistic when you are looking at what is attainable and how long you have left in your career.

Ummm... probably all the guys sitting left seat in those a/c (777, 787, 330) are 12yr captains...

...I donít know that you understand how the pay scale works.

IF you spend 12 years at AA as an FO then somehow get awarded 330CA, you instantly go to 12year CA pay. You donít restart at 1 again...

bigtime209
03-22-2018, 04:12 PM
How many 12 year captains does AA have at that pay scale? I doubt there are any. You have to be realistic when you are looking at what is attainable and how long you have left in your career.

Ummm...say again?

pitchattitude
03-22-2018, 05:28 PM
Ummm... probably all the guys sitting left seat in those a/c (777, 787, 330) are 12yr captains...

...I donít know that you understand how the pay scale works.

IF you spend 12 years at AA as an FO then somehow get awarded 330CA, you instantly go to 12year CA pay. You donít restart at 1 again...
Yes, I fully understand how pay scales work. I just seriously doubt if 12 years of seniority will get you the left seat of the largest pay rate in the system. We all know how optimistic the Envoy recruiting propaganda is and that is what they advertise. Maybe it will. And maybe we will get a pay raise and start flowing more. But I think all three of those are overly optimistic.

Bigpimppilot
03-23-2018, 06:00 PM
Yes, I fully understand how pay scales work. I just seriously doubt if 12 years of seniority will get you the left seat of the largest pay rate in the system. We all know how optimistic the Envoy recruiting propaganda is and that is what they advertise. Maybe it will. And maybe we will get a pay raise and start flowing more. But I think all three of those are overly optimistic.


I was talking to a senior fo on the 777 that is 62. He could be a captain on any narrowbody but not on the heavy metal

highfarfast
03-23-2018, 06:52 PM
I was talking to a senior fo on the 777 that is 62. He could be a captain on any narrowbody but not on the heavy metal

It's not that useful to know how old he is. It IS useful to know how long he's been there. ;)

Bigpimppilot
03-24-2018, 04:33 AM
Touchť good point. So your saying no twa guys are on it



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