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View Full Version : Amazon prime air could fail?


Industry Strnd
03-23-2018, 11:33 AM
It doesn't take a smart person to see how prime air could fail! Has anyone looked at all of the studies on how many pilots are being hired in the next 5 years at carriers that have far superior pilot contracts than ATI (new cba) ABX and Atlas?

Google any reputable study, it's more pilots than there are regional pilots.

It's like management has the investment community and Amazon BSed into thinking it will be just fine, yet pilots at these carriers are leaving in droves and it's getting harder and harder to fill classes. The overtime and required working on days off is getting out of hand again like it did when ABC struck!

Twice now I've been in a van where FedEx and UPS pilots have stated their management said to hire as many Amazon pilots as possible.

Fed ex is hiring 500 this year. Maybe ATI MEC and ABX teamsters can finally work together and get a direct flow to Fedex. Year 2 fo is higher pay the 12 yr cpt at either airline!

I bet in some war room in Seattle they have big hopes and dreams but they have not done the research of what it is going to take to staff and airline the size they may want. The regional pilot feed is drying up and most regional have or are establish flows to their major partner so they will stay till their number is called. Jet Blue started their own fight school. DELTA and United are starting programs to capture students at college. What does Amazon do?

They contract with Atlas and sue the pilots, drag out negotiations.

They make bs offers to ABX.

They sell an aweful TA to scared beat down ATI pilots.

I suspect if Amazon told ATSG and Atlas give them fed ex agreement -10% it would pass and pilots would flock here. They would remain ahead of paying for shipping through ups and fedex, but no they want to treat the pilots like dirt and not see the industry going ahead of them. Once the reputation is established it's going to take much more to buy their way out of it and by then most of the good smart pilots will have a seniority number at a legacy!

Then if amazon wants cheaper shipping they will have to pony up a lot more to buy fedex or ups!


badflaps
03-23-2018, 11:40 AM
I don't think they are above hiring Ivan, Juan and Lo Pak.:D

Boris Badenov
03-23-2018, 12:27 PM
Well, that's it, it's time to retire Bezos and install some dude from the internet as CEO.


JackStraw
03-23-2018, 04:11 PM
Doesnít everyone but the Airliners.net crowd and ATI pilots secretly hope it fails?

F224
03-23-2018, 04:55 PM
I don't think they are above hiring Ivan, Juan and Lo Pak.:D


The problem there is that those guys all make me look like I'm a kid, and I'm 59!

BlueSkies88
03-23-2018, 06:51 PM
Twice now I've been in a van where FedEx and UPS pilots have stated their management said to hire as many Amazon pilots as possible.



I doubt any ATI would be interested, theyíre beyond happy showing off that prime pilot bag tag...ooooohhhh and donít forget that precious HOME BASING...

CallmeJB
03-24-2018, 04:41 AM
Jet Blue started their own fight school.

The first rule of Jet Blue fight school is don't talk about Jet Blue fight school.

iHateAMR
03-24-2018, 05:24 AM
Twice now I've been in a van where FedEx and UPS pilots have stated their management said to hire as many Amazon pilots as possible.



I have to call BS on this one. 1. FedEx pilots rarely take a hotel shuttle, they are usually private limos. 2. A private limo isnít going to pick up a UPS crew in the same van. 3. The odds that all three miraculously have a departure at the exact same time from the exact same ramp or the flights are staggered perfectly enough for the hotel van to hit each ramp exactly on time and companies are willing to burn their crew duty is nearly impossible. Not to mention the respective companies allowing the possibility of a delayed departure resting on the shoulders of a rival carrier.

The rest of your story, I have no idea, but if youíre making up this portion, itís hard to believe the rest.

nitefr8dog
03-24-2018, 06:10 AM
Really.....came up with that all by yourself? Most likely will fail is more accurate. It would take 20+ yrs to actually be successful if they knew what they were doing, had the infrastructure, and pilots and aircraft. They have none of these. Also they pattern themselves after DHL using a bunch of ACMI carriers Bezos can play off each other. It's a train wreck.

Industry Strnd
03-24-2018, 06:42 AM
Look how many have already left for UPS and Fedex and how many got invited to FedEx expo! But your right it could be fake news, we wouldnt want people coming to an ACMI thinking it's a career path to a real airline UPS or Fedex.

Also the whole Amazon cargo could just be a ploy by Amazon to get FedEx to lower their asking price for Amazon to buy them. If Amaxon just buys FedEx out right the ATI ABX Atlas deals just get scrapped and furloughs happen.

Any ACMI is a risky move for a career choice until the contracts get better or there is a more clear path to a future. It's intresting how many passenger carriers advertise their growth plans and number of planes and pilots expected to hire. At ACMI they just say come here, trust us, it will all be fine. I suspect they don't advertise because they can't, it's all contract work that can be lost at anytime!

Amazon never has exercised its stock options at Atlas or ABX.

Red Baron
03-24-2018, 07:52 AM
Amazon never has exercised its stock options at Atlas or ABX.

Yes they have with ATSG. Read the 2017 2nd and 3rd quarter reports. Stock warrants (Amazon's discounted purchase price of ATSG shares) curtailed profits in both of those quarters.

freighthound
03-24-2018, 11:01 AM
Yes they have with ATSG. Read the 2017 2nd and 3rd quarter reports. Stock warrants (Amazon's discounted purchase price of ATSG shares) curtailed profits in both of those quarters.
No they have not. Those warrants contain a liability that has to be accounted for but to date they have not exercised the warrants.

freighthound
03-24-2018, 11:20 AM
No they have not. Those warrants contain a liability that has to be accounted for but to date they have not exercised the warrants.

And if you don't believe that, go online and see the major holders of the stock. Amazon is no where to be found. Doesn't mean they won't, they just haven't yet. I do wish I had a few of those warrants to buy a few shares of ATSG or AAWW at $9.73 or $37.50 respectively.

WingOffLight
03-24-2018, 09:45 PM
Twice now I've been in a van where FedEx and UPS pilots have stated their management said to hire as many Amazon pilots as possible.




ROFLAO

Not FDX. ATI I donít believe is packed with academy graduates and test pilots. UPS maybe

FDX still do that infamous written and brain game? Iím sure ATI/ABX are lining up overthere.

I would come up with a better story.

sky jet
03-24-2018, 11:00 PM
Twice now I've been in a van where FedEx and UPS pilots have stated their management said to hire as many Amazon pilots as possible.

I am going to type this slowly so you can follow this. THERE ARE NO AMAZON PRIME PILOTS. There are pilots that fly Amazon freight that work for Amazon contracted companies. Any pilot who claims to work for Amazon now is as lame as the regional guy in the 80's and 90's who flew a Metro or B1900 telling people that he worked for ..........(insert mainline airline here). If it doesn't say Amazon in pretty blue ink on your paystub, you don't work for them.

No Land 3
03-25-2018, 03:24 AM
I am going to type this slowly so you can follow this. THERE ARE NO AMAZON PRIME PILOTS. There are pilots that fly Amazon freight that work for Amazon contracted companies. Any pilot who claims to work for Amazon now is as lame as the regional guy in the 80's and 90's who flew a Metro or B1900 telling people that he worked for ..........(insert mainline airline here). If it doesn't say Amazon in pretty blue ink on your paystub, you don't work for them.

So... Iím not really a DHL and Turkish Air pilot, or a military pilot?? Darn...

Airplaneflyer11
03-26-2018, 01:23 PM
Really.....came up with that all by yourself? Most likely will fail is more accurate. It would take 20+ yrs to actually be successful if they knew what they were doing, had the infrastructure, and pilots and aircraft. They have none of these. Also they pattern themselves after DHL using a bunch of ACMI carriers Bezos can play off each other. It's a train wreck.


Yes there is a HIGH probability he did in fact generate the story himself since we all know FedEx gets a car service for no hassle pick up's and UPS gets their own van, even if a hotel van to the airport is leaving at the same time (YVR)

But I do believe you are spot on with the rest. This is exactly why Amazon Prime Air will not gain lift. Modeling after DHL and utilizing the whip saw method of airlines will create such labor unrest and discontinuity that the system will slowly crumble into the DHL departure model of being an hour late on a good night and two hours when a cloud shows up. Amazon will never be able to keep a staffing level where they can compete in the freight industry to the level of FedEx and UPS utilizing these methods. The ACMI manamgent snakes will say and do anything to convince Amazon the system is not dysfunctional and/ or broke until they really have no choice but to show their cards. DHL already knows all this but is making so much money that to go the extra mile and improve the system to make more just isn't important enough. Just my two cents

WingOffLight
03-26-2018, 03:02 PM
So... Iím not really a DHL and Turkish Air pilot, or a military pilot?? Darn...


Hey someone post a picture of an ATI pilot with amazon bag tags or stickers.

I need a ďfunnyĒ picture for my office.I may start a thread on this.

CA Deplorable
03-26-2018, 05:08 PM
Pilot posers.....just like the guy with the Vette with the ďpilotĒ plate... all equates to low self esteem and a even smaller p,,,s.
Guys that could never make the big leagues do lame stuff like wear their jersey to the bar and lame ďfake newsĒ bag tags on their cheap walmart rollie. Earn your own respect!!! a bag tag wont get it for you.

G550Guy
03-29-2018, 01:56 PM
Also the whole Amazon cargo could just be a ploy by Amazon to get FedEx to lower their asking price for Amazon to buy them. If Amaxon just buys FedEx out right the ATI ABX Atlas deals just get scrapped and furloughs happen.


Wait, what? Are you suggesting FedEx would buy Amazon or vice-versa?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JackStraw
03-29-2018, 02:10 PM
To think out loud that Amazon has any interest in doing anything other than playing contract carriers like ATI and Atlas against each other only proves your ignorance to everyone else. They aren’t in the business of running airlines.

Alldaysushi
03-29-2018, 03:05 PM
The Amazon monopoly will most likely be broken up. Could be good or bad for the freight dog population. When Standard oil and Bell telephone were split up, many jobs were created.

Safe travels...Sushi

midnightshuttle
04-02-2018, 03:33 AM
To think out loud that Amazon has any interest in doing anything other than playing contract carriers like ATI and Atlas against each other only proves your ignorance to everyone else. They arenít in the business of running airlines.


We at ATI were told VOTE yes and youll be Prime Air

gumpscheck
04-02-2018, 04:31 AM
We at ATI were told VOTE yes and youll be Prime Air

And you fell for it?
Címon man!! Thatís an old trick.
Now youíre stuck with a substandard CBA.

FlyAstarJets
04-02-2018, 08:01 AM
We at ATI were told VOTE yes and youll be Prime Air

And I call absolute BS on this.

At no point did I or anyone else that I have talked to ever hear that or any other statement even remotely close to that. EVER.

Provide the date, forum and speakers name that allegedly spewed this rubbish, OR IT NEVER HAPPENED PERIOD.

mpflyboy1
04-02-2018, 12:20 PM
We at ATI were told VOTE yes and youll be Prime Air

Aren't you already Prime pilots according to your bag tags?

JackStraw
04-02-2018, 01:11 PM
I guarantee youíll never talk to a yes voter at ATI.

CA Deplorable
04-03-2018, 03:07 AM
Bag Tags LMAO that just cracks me up!!

ACMItrash
11-25-2018, 04:13 PM
Several more pilots go to UPS .....and Several other carriers, another carrier with a TA with rates and retirement much higher than any Amazon contractor. The amazon failure..
.. to employ anyone who can do a Google search about the pilot shortage and listen be to ACMI management will be the failure of Amazon prime air.

CallmeJB
11-25-2018, 04:31 PM
Several more pilots go to UPS .....and Several other carriers, another carrier with a TA with rates and retirement much higher than any Amazon contractor. The amazon failure..
.. to employ anyone who can do a Google search about the pilot shortage and listen be to ACMI management will be the failure of Amazon prime air.

By my math there are 2200+ pilots flying for carriers that fly Amazon 767s. Is UPS going to hire all of them?

Atlas, ABX, and ATI have plenty of big problems. Losing 100 pilots a year to UPS is a small one.

I wish it weren't true. We need all the leverage we can get.

boeingdvr
11-26-2018, 04:28 AM
By my math there are 2200+ pilots flying for carriers that fly Amazon 767s. Is UPS going to hire all of them?

Atlas, ABX, and ATI have plenty of big problems. Losing 100 pilots a year to UPS is a small one.

I wish it weren't true. We need all the leverage we can get.

There are many other airlines besides brown. Hell, even the RJ's are better deals than Atlas right now.

ACMItrash
11-27-2018, 07:06 AM
By my math there are 2200+ pilots flying for carriers that fly Amazon 767s. Is UPS going to hire all of them?

Atlas, ABX, and ATI have plenty of big problems. Losing 100 pilots a year to UPS is a small one.

I wish it weren't true. We need all the leverage we can get.

Losing 100 pilots a year could be a problem when only 3 or 4 show up for class and 1 or two don't make it through training.

CallmeJB
11-27-2018, 09:07 AM
Losing 100 pilots a year could be a problem when only 3 or 4 show up for class and 1 or two don't make it through training.

Yes. That could be a problem.

The trouble is, every FO that leaves for UPS or FedEx makes it easier for the company to recruit pilots. Everybody wants to work at UPS and FedEx, and we can get them there faster.

Itís a sad reality.

dynap09
11-27-2018, 01:14 PM
Amazon prime air is not going to fail.

They just need to be able to move cargo for less cost than with UPS. That's all it takes for this thing to be successful for them. Even if they are paying more than they pay UPS, they are using these planes for marketing so may not even care.

The idea that UPS is flying a plane load of amazon boxes for less than amazon is paying someone like ABX? No chance. A UPS pilot is probably getting 50% more than the ABX guy flying the exact same plane. With better work rules, better guarantee etc.

Yes, individual carriers might have trouble with staffing in general. But amazon will move the flying around to where folks are able to staff or raise wages. Good news, if they do expand more (big IF) they may need to pay more or move flying to airlines that do.

No Land 3
11-27-2018, 01:25 PM
Amazon prime air is not going to fail.

They just need to be able to move cargo for less cost than with UPS. That's all it takes for this thing to be successful for them. Even if they are paying more than they pay UPS, they are using these planes for marketing so may not even care.

The idea that UPS is flying a plane load of amazon boxes for less than amazon is paying someone like ABX? No chance. A UPS pilot is probably getting 50% more than the ABX guy flying the exact same plane. With better work rules, better guarantee etc.

Yes, individual carriers might have trouble with staffing in general. But amazon will move the flying around to where folks are able to staff or raise wages. Good news, if they do expand more (big IF) they may need to pay more or move flying to airlines that do.
He is following the regional model, except with 767's. The only thing keeping it from being a true race to the bottom is a lack of pilots.

nitefr8dog
11-27-2018, 03:33 PM
He is following the regional model, except with 767's. The only thing keeping it from being a true race to the bottom is a lack of pilots.
Unfortunately some idiots are still showing up for class at ABX..

maxjet
11-29-2018, 12:16 PM
Unfortunately some idiots are still showing up for class at ABX..

What I donít understand is why when pilots leave an ACMI carrier for UPS or FedEx it is news. When a pilot leaves Mesa Air Group for United, it is looked at as career progression. Why is this any different? Because Atlas or ABX were once career airlines?

AirMidwest/CCAir/Mesa were once career airlines too.

Times change, smart pilots realize it, and get out in front of it. The not so smart ones, sit on the listing ship complaining that the deck chairs keep sliding off.

nitefr8dog
11-30-2018, 09:22 AM
What I donít understand is why when pilots leave an ACMI carrier for UPS or FedEx it is news. When a pilot leaves Mesa Air Group for United, it is looked at as career progression. Why is this any different? Because Atlas or ABX were once career airlines?

AirMidwest/CCAir/Mesa were once career airlines too.

Times change, smart pilots realize it, and get out in front of it. The not so smart ones, sit on the listing ship complaining that the deck chairs keep sliding off.
Well in the case of ABX....the majority of new hires are leaving shortly after being hired. Some right out of IOE, others soon after and returning to their previous life or something other than planned long before any gainful resume improvements. Why...because the working enviorment is so caustic the gains are not worth waiting for. But you knew that didn't you?